Log for #openttd on 10th September 2010:
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05:00:39  <Terkhen> good morning
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05:07:31  <VVG> hi Terkhen
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06:55:20  <planetmaker> moin
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07:24:13  <dihedral> morning
07:26:00  <[hta]specx> night
07:26:01  <dihedral> i noticed i effectively have only two months because i am in Brazil for 3 weeks :-S
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07:35:22  <dihedral> planetmaker, found the autopilot issue
07:35:58  <planetmaker> nice :-)
07:38:14  * dihedral now writes readme :-P
07:41:27  <[hta]specx> How to add nml doc contrib?
07:41:37  <[hta]specx> need ottdcoop acc for that?
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07:44:46  <dihedral> acc = account?
07:44:53  <dihedral> ottdcoop = openttdcoop?
07:45:28  <dihedral> in that case, if editing fails, yes you might need an account
07:47:19  <[hta]specx> account gazzilion+1
07:48:25  <[hta]specx> So i create an account, check out hg repo, commit changed file, and then we are all happy and cheering and such?
07:48:42  <dihedral> ...
07:48:53  <dihedral> nobody mentioned 'commit' :-)
07:49:16  <dihedral> how about creating 'bug reports'?
07:49:32  <dihedral> or sending your docs to those with commit rights
07:49:41  <dihedral> or simply editing wiki pages?
07:49:43  <[hta]specx> bug report for a contrib?
07:49:56  <[hta]specx> what wiki page for nml doc is there to be edited?
07:50:04  <dihedral> how should i know?
07:50:13  <dihedral> if not, make one
07:50:19  <[hta]specx> you are suggesting it?
07:50:43  <dihedral> i am close to adding you to my ... VIP list
07:51:07  <[hta]specx> I am not that important, you know.
07:51:11  <dihedral> perhaps i should rename the list to VSN (very silent nicks)
07:51:49  <dihedral> [hta]specx, bother planetmaker with openttdcoop nml stuff - or any of the other ops in #openttdcoop
07:51:57  <dihedral> i am sure they have some vital information for you ;-)
07:52:15  <[hta]specx> whugh
07:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "Noise Damper List"?
07:52:21  <[hta]specx> sorry
07:52:36  <[hta]specx> somehow I thought planetmaker==dihedral
07:52:54  <dihedral> WHAT??
07:53:04  <[hta]specx> must be the one beer i just finished
07:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "these germans all look alike to me" :p
07:53:21  <dihedral> :-D
07:53:23  <dihedral> lol
07:54:10  <planetmaker> [hta]specx: dihedral is right though: create an account at the devzone and make a "bug" report with a patch which contains your changes
07:54:15  <[hta]specx> lthough i doubt 0,001% alcohol contents in my blood are responsible for that, so it must be my grey cells being wired up to the wrong interface
07:55:07  <[hta]specx> along with your [dihedral] irresistable urge to answer my cryptic message
07:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you heavily underestimate the alcohol content, or heavily overestimate your own weight...
07:56:22  <Rubidium> doesn't alcohol impair judgement?
07:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess so ;)
07:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, an average adult with an average beer results in around 0,03% to 0,05% blood alcohol
07:57:40  <dihedral> try to stretch out your arm, and hit the 'a' key on your keyboard
07:58:06  <planetmaker> [hta]specx: "bug" reports can also be "feature requests" or "patches". So it is not only bugs ;-)
07:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that is about a factor of 30-50 higher than your estimate
07:58:14  <[hta]specx> *when the beverage is processed completely by the stomach
07:58:29  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, %??
07:58:37  <[hta]specx> bugs eveolved since 1960 i guess
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07:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: there's no o/oo sign on the keyboard
07:59:26  <[hta]specx> that's why you add another zero after the comma
07:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 0,3o/oo = 0,03%
07:59:41  <[hta]specx> in non US countries, that is.
08:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but the other question is: why the hell do you have had one beer at 10AM?
08:01:58  <planetmaker> the blood level rose too much
08:02:01  <[hta]specx> -8 GMT
08:02:02  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, breakfast? cornflakes? :-P
08:03:17  <dihedral> [hta]specx, you on holiday?
08:03:28  <[hta]specx> workiday
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08:09:43  <[hta]specx> hah! a magic new issue button appeared
08:12:29  <[hta]specx> it now describes it as a doodle
08:13:14  <[hta]specx> I wonder if is correct though.
08:17:17  <planetmaker> looks fine
08:17:40  <planetmaker> but there are more than one language file :-)
08:17:44  <planetmaker> possible
08:18:04  <planetmaker> I'd just call them language files
08:18:39  <[hta]specx> ttdpatch is missing, and i might call  'em langdefinition file
08:19:11  <planetmaker> eh? How is ttdp missing?
08:19:34  <planetmaker> besides: are you able to create a real patch from your changes?
08:19:38  <[hta]specx> its only showing ottd logo ;)
08:19:48  <planetmaker> that'd be more convenient to merge
08:20:02  <planetmaker> as it makes your changes MUCH more visible
08:20:11  <[hta]specx> I know svn. hq/git/cvs is not yet in my skillset
08:20:58  <[hta]specx> mainly because I havent found any fancyspency ui to work with it
08:20:59  <planetmaker> hg diff > blubber.diff
08:21:19  <[hta]specx> hg diff > blubber.diff               > does not compute?
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08:22:15  <planetmaker> it was a verbatim command I gave
08:22:39  <planetmaker> with not many spare letters. and all spare letters were either space or found in the filename of "blubber.diff"
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08:23:20  <[hta]specx> I can't follow you
08:23:48  <planetmaker> I gave you my way to create a patch file named "blubber.diff"
08:24:06  <[hta]specx> presumably using hg
08:24:21  <planetmaker> yes
08:24:48  <planetmaker> well. if you don't have that, you can still do that:
08:25:08  <planetmaker> take the original html file you started off with, take your current html file and do
08:25:21  <planetmaker> diff original.html modified.html > blubber.diff
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08:25:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "diff -u" usually
08:26:06  <[hta]specx> I'll try some clickyclicky with my svn ui
08:26:28  <[hta]specx> as commandline stuff depresses me severely (and this is serious)
08:26:56  <planetmaker> hm. svn won't help you ;-) - there's no subversion repository for NML
08:27:13  <planetmaker> you'll need tortoiseHG for that, not tortoiseSVN
08:27:41  <[hta]specx> .diff hg != .diff svn?
08:30:26  <[hta]specx> that's ironic. tortoisehg gives me two options: reboot machine or close all apps im running....
08:31:05  <[hta]specx> Ill add the diff later, cant close some apps here atm.
08:32:14  <planetmaker> [hta]specx: if you don't have a repository the diff will work anyway... but you cannot use svn commands, of course w/o a svn repository
08:33:09  <[hta]specx> so a svn diff is created using same specs as hg diffs?
08:36:39  <Eddi|zuHause> depends what you call "specs"
08:38:28  <[hta]specx> done fighting with versioning tools for today. Alcohol (even 0,003%) + fatigue == low greymass clock frequency.
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08:53:22  <planetmaker> [hta]specx, the result will look somewhat the same and is nearly interchangeable. But the way to obtain it depends of course on what you got in the first place
08:53:36  <planetmaker> like... for a my car I need another key than for yours.
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08:57:44  <planetmaker> [hta]specx, what version of NML did you base your modifications on?
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09:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> what's GMT-9 anyway? alaska??
09:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i know vancouver is GMT-8, it doesn't get much more westwards than that...
09:13:28  <TomyLobo> hawaii?
09:13:54  <TomyLobo> that's -12
09:13:59  <TomyLobo> CET-12 ^^
09:14:08  <TomyLobo> GMT-10
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09:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you make no sense...
09:14:48  <TomyLobo> you said it doesn't get much more westwards. i told you about a place further west
09:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but CET-12 and GMT-10 are not the same thing...
09:15:51  <Rubidium> Hawaii?
09:15:59  <Rubidium> but then with DST
09:16:08  <TomyLobo> Eddi|zuHause of course they are
09:16:26  <TomyLobo> well CEST or whatever we have atm
09:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: that's something entirely different
09:17:01  <TomyLobo> no, it's something entirely silly
09:17:27  <Rubidium> s/Hawaii/Aleutian Islands
09:20:33  <TomyLobo> which is funny, cause some of them are even beyond the +/-180° meridian
09:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the date border is not always on the 180 meridian
09:21:49  <TomyLobo> yep
09:21:59  <TomyLobo> dateline, btw
09:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause> like time borders are not always on a meridian either
09:23:39  <TomyLobo> yup
09:24:18  <TomyLobo> what i actually meant is that they should be in +12/-12/-11 according to their position, not -10
09:25:26  <TomyLobo> hah, there's a place with GMT+14
09:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is.
09:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and i believe -13 as well
09:26:38  <Rubidium> meaning you can skip a complete day
09:26:46  <TomyLobo> nothing i can find at least
09:26:53  <Rubidium> (or do a day twice)
09:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... in egypt they stopped DST during ramadan
09:28:52  <planetmaker> that sounds even more weired
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09:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "Pirates capture ship - engine shut down by the crew before hitting panic room - pirates call for 'tech support' who laughs at them and sends the US marines" -- haha :)
09:54:20  <TrueBrain> lol @ Eddi|zuHause :D
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09:56:41  <dihedral> :-D
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10:00:35  <dihedral>
10:00:54  <dihedral> The pirates then phoned the shipping company in Hamburg to ask where the crew were hidden.
10:00:54  <dihedral> "They were told the crew was on holiday,"
10:00:56  <dihedral> :-D
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10:49:11  <dihedral> <- Darth Vader on TomTom :-D
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11:19:07  <VVG> hello
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12:20:53  * peter1138 grumbles at zlib polluting valgrind...
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12:31:39  <dihedral> orudge, ping
12:34:02  * Rubidium smells and "ask to ask"
12:34:18  <orudge> dihedral: hi
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12:56:38  <planetmaker> hehe. That smell definitely is in the air
12:57:14  <__ln__> ping to ping would be even worse
12:58:07  <Rubidium> now the question is whether they continued via PMs, but even then it's silly to ask here first
12:59:57  <dihedral> it's safer to check, as if someone aint there, chances that pm's could get lost do exist
13:01:40  * Rubidium never had problems with that
13:02:06  <Rubidium> maybe the people I talk to don't use a bouncer or use a properly configured one that retains such PMs
13:02:34  <dihedral> :-P
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13:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i know what's wrong: he didn't say "pong"
13:05:28  <Belugas> hello
13:05:44  <Belugas> IT'S FRIDAY!!!!
13:05:50  * Belugas dances
13:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> ever wondered why "freeday" isn't actually "free"?
13:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> [joke might work a little bit better in german]
13:07:11  <Belugas> indeed :)
13:07:12  <SmatZ> hehe
13:07:27  <Belugas> note that on a kitchen, it would have a very different meaning...
13:07:31  <Belugas> fry day
13:07:33  <Belugas> buwhahaha
13:07:56  <SmatZ> :)
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13:16:39  <planetmaker> :-)
13:17:05  <planetmaker> grrr... I hate the travel agency I have to use :S
13:17:28  <planetmaker> giving them a call like "hey, I'd like to book...". Oh you need to call our business department. Oh right...
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13:17:46  <planetmaker> calling the business department: "oh, you have to use the special form. We don't do that via phone.."
13:17:49  <planetmaker> wth?!
13:18:28  <Noldo> old school
13:18:47  <planetmaker> they can do that as they know that I HAVE to use them. :-(
13:19:01  <Noldo> why is that?
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13:19:10  <norbert79> good day guys
13:19:23  <planetmaker> we're ordered by the chancelor of the university to do so
13:19:25  <norbert79> Been a week since I was last here :) Time flies fast
13:19:55  <planetmaker> presumably saving an occasional euro on some travels
13:20:00  <robotboy> hello
13:20:05  <Noldo> planetmaker: who did they bribe?
13:20:16  <planetmaker> probably the chancelor of the university...
13:20:49  <planetmaker> he's a person I'd rather see end as rocket fuel anyway
13:21:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you'll eventually need a rocket to go to the planet you're making...
13:21:35  <planetmaker> exactly
13:21:39  <norbert79> Guys, I have a question: is it somehow possible to program a GRF file so it places a new sprite over the already built houses? Like in Hungary we still have many condos/blockhouses, but with the new goverment program these are getting renewed. This would mean, that no new blockhouses would be built from one type after 1990 for example, but they would change around 2008 to their new forms. One example of this renewal process: http://ing
13:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you need to file a form at the travel agency for that as well :p
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13:22:24  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, we have in our form the option [ ] self-piloted plane
13:22:29  <Rubidium> planetmaker: just fill in the form, copy it a million times and send it to everyone :)
13:23:01  <Rubidium> oh sorry, I thought you meant that I should send it the *the* chancelor
13:24:08  <planetmaker> He'll eventually have to sign my permission to travel... Prague is abroad...
13:24:28  <planetmaker> norbert79, yes, it's possible
13:24:44  <norbert79> planetmaker: It is?? Cool! How?
13:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you're travelling in 4th dimension, then you find a path to prague that does not leave the country :p
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13:25:17  <planetmaker> norbert79, every house grf does something like that with its houses.
13:25:36  <planetmaker> You need to read up on newgrf programming. It's not a 2-sentence thing which will teach you
13:25:52  <glx> callbacks
13:26:04  <planetmaker> it also requires a little bit more than beginner's knowledge to newgrf programming
13:26:27  <norbert79> planetmaker: Yes, but the process is normally, that the type gets selected, animation to the stages starts, it ends with the finished house. But these houses won't be built after 1990, but if any of those would still exist till 2008, it should have it's new texture in two stages from 2008. Still possible?
13:26:46  <planetmaker> yes
13:26:49  <norbert79> planetmaker: It's not a problem if this would take a while, I am just curious if it's possible
13:26:53  <Rubidium> it's only 59 euros from Braunschweig to Praha :)
13:26:55  <norbert79> planetmaker: Thank you, nice
13:27:00  <Rubidium> in a mere 6:28
13:27:06  <planetmaker> Rubidium, with the super saver tickets, yes
13:27:25  <planetmaker> I guess... that then is again too daring ;-)
13:27:26  <Rubidium> well, I can book a ticket for next monday
13:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause> probably the bureaucracy forbids you to take those :p
13:27:40  <planetmaker> Rubidium, I'll be there around end of month
13:27:47  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes and no
13:28:05  <planetmaker> I can get away with it when I can proove that I save money
13:28:10  <planetmaker> -o
13:28:36  <Rubidium> Monday 27th, "a whopping" 39 euros
13:28:46  <planetmaker> I'll travel Sunday 26th
13:29:00  <Rubidium> 12:59 dep. 39,00
13:29:06  <planetmaker> yep
13:29:09  <planetmaker> like that
13:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> travelling fridays and sundays is probably more expensive
13:29:28  <planetmaker> I don't think so
13:29:33  <planetmaker> not yet ;-)
13:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> at least you should really make a seat reservation
13:29:38  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: if you want to be in Praha before dinner, yes... otherwise nope
13:35:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20780 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20772): group gui only worked properly for the first company
13:37:07  <planetmaker> he
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13:50:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20781 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20780): FinishInitNested reset this->owner, so set it afterwards
13:55:52  <SmatZ> planetmaker: do you think you will have free time during the week?
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13:57:40  <planetmaker> certainly some.
13:57:54  <planetmaker> It's a conference after all :-P
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14:00:10  <planetmaker> anything special going on during that time?
14:00:27  <planetmaker> or do you know a few good pubs? :-)
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14:01:54  <planetmaker> I definitely won't have time on Tuesday morning, but I didn't check the rest of the programme so far in detail
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14:02:29  <Rubidium> planetmaker: Guns N Roses?
14:03:10  <planetmaker> are they?
14:03:30  <Rubidium>
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14:05:19  <planetmaker> hmm... :-)
14:05:47  <planetmaker> only backdraw: I'll be on-stage the next morning
14:06:23  *** DJNekkid [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:06:45  <planetmaker> which means I usually would want to rehearse my talk...
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14:09:55  <Rubidium> do it on the melodies of guns n roses?
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14:12:58  <planetmaker> :-D
14:13:27  <planetmaker> hm... one of my first CDs is from them...
14:14:08  <Rubidium> 195m36.774s <- it only took that long to compile OpenTTD
14:14:16  <planetmaker> :-O
14:14:24  <planetmaker> 3h:15? that's a bit
14:14:33  <planetmaker> You should compare that to native compile ;-)
14:14:44  <planetmaker> Presumably it'd be _slightly_ faster ;-)
14:15:27  <Rubidium> yup, 4m47 including fetching dependencies, installing them and removing them again
14:17:47  <Lakie> How were you compiling them?
14:18:49  <Lakie> Also, would anyone mind exlpaining how I'd use industry var67 in nfo code, I have no experience with "action2advanced"
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14:21:11  <Rubidium> Lakie: using Debian installed on a s390 emulator
14:21:24  <Rubidium> Lakie: I've got no real clue about action2 advanced either :(
14:21:30  <ABCRic> 195min O.O
14:21:42  <Rubidium> and it seems to be capable of running an dedicated OpenTTD server just fine
14:21:50  <Lakie> Hehe
14:21:56  <Rubidium> okay, the game has a whopping 2 trains and 3 stations, but still
14:22:28  <norbert79> Rubidium: Hold down mr Professor... Did I see S390? You are my man! :)))
14:22:58  * norbert79 used to start as an S390 admin, yet still in contact with zVM
14:23:10  <ABCRic> how long do the nightlies take to compile?
14:23:26  <ABCRic> on whatever machine compiles them?
14:23:51  <Rubidium> roughly 7-9 minutes each
14:24:10  <Rubidium> including the booting of an operating system for each
14:24:19  <norbert79> IPL-ing ;-)
14:24:42  <norbert79> Rubidium: What OS do you run Hercules from?
14:24:58  <norbert79> Rubidium: And how did you get the DASD-s for it? :D
14:24:58  <Rubidium> on 2.13 GHz Quad core Xeon, with only one core use per compile
14:25:11  <ABCRic> mine takes 4-6 minutes, not counting the time my Vista takes to boot...
14:25:18  <Rubidium> norbert79:
14:26:06  <norbert79> Rubidium: Ah, but from where di you get the DASD's from?
14:26:11  <Rubidium> oh, I think I can use some 8 times more CPU for OpenTTD
14:26:19  <ABCRic> I mean, the problem isn't the boot time, it's the "wake up" time: after desktop shows up, must wait 2-3 minutes for stuff to run at normal speed
14:26:38  <Rubidium> norbert79: "thin air"
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14:51:17  <norbert79> Bye everyone
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15:32:42  * Lakie gives up on trying to understand action2adv and just hacks the memory at run time to simulate the correct input data instead
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15:45:52  <davis1> that's the way lakie ;p
15:53:01  <Lakie> Well, on the bright side the code should work now, even if I can't rwite a grf to properly test it. :(
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16:01:27  <davis1> there's always some kind of downside haha , at least it works :)
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16:27:00  <Lakie> OK, after looking through firs' code I understand vaguely how action2adv works.
16:27:33  <peter1138> Is that old stuff?
16:27:50  <Lakie> action2adv?
16:27:55  <Lakie> Should be fairly old.
16:27:55  <peter1138> Yeah...
16:28:22  <Lakie> pre TTDPatch r1300...
16:28:49  <Lakie> Rubidium: I've been pondering, currently I keep 'hacking' cb157 to do other checks as it has the tile location. And such am wondering if maybe we should extend it to allow a textid return for the error message?
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16:38:44  <andythenorth> Lakie: action adv is really fun :)
16:38:50  <andythenorth> action 2 /s
16:39:04  <Lakie> Its quite um, unique
16:39:17  <andythenorth> it's elegant
16:39:22  <andythenorth> fragile, but elegant
16:39:29  <Lakie> Heh
16:40:20  <Lakie> I think I understand how it works now though, (though not why you do var1A and latter speific the 1a again)
16:41:33  <Acropolips> Can someone help me please?
16:41:35  <Lakie> Seems to follow the pattern of <oper> <var1> <var adjust> <mask / var2>
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16:42:11  <Wolf01> hello
16:43:40  <davis1> hi
16:45:23  <Rubidium> Lakie: good question; maybe discuss it in the newobjects specs thread?
16:45:26  <Lakie> Ah I see, thats why 1A is used again, to provide -1 you can mask to the value you want.
16:45:40  <Lakie> Yeah, I was thinking about that.
16:46:11  <Rubidium> although one would think that you'd have to do the same for stations as well (for consistency's sake)
16:47:05  <Lakie> um... perhaps. There already some subtle differeneces in how they operate, so might be better to split it off, I'm not sure
16:47:29  <Rubidium> that's fine by me as well
16:47:30  <planetmaker> [18:41]	<Acropolips>	Can someone help me please? <-- first we need to help you obviously with asking a question in the first place
16:48:30  <davis1> gotta agree with pm here
16:49:42  <Rubidium> if you don't know what the question is, then obvious the right answer must be 101010b
16:49:51  <davis1> 42
16:49:55  <planetmaker> :-)
16:50:15  <planetmaker> bad part: it takes infinitely long to formulate the question.
16:50:19  <planetmaker> And even then it fails
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16:53:16  <planetmaker> quak :-)
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16:54:27  <planetmaker> zero-ink?
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16:58:09  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, highways are never the answer to a question :)
16:58:34  <Rubidium> and moi frosch & Albert
16:58:43  <planetmaker> I'd not say 'never', but... :-)
16:58:43  <frosch> evening :)
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16:59:39  <planetmaker> hm, no question then
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17:06:48  <Alberth> good evening
17:15:45  <davis1> (:
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17:46:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20782 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo
17:46:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:46:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: galician - 64 changes by Condex
17:46:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
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19:37:11  <ABCRic> meh. I can't get my GRFMaker-made Industry to actually accept cargo :(
19:37:30  <planetmaker> use NML or direct nfo ;-)
19:37:52  <planetmaker> (I know, sorry, was not constructive)
19:39:51  <ABCRic> If only I *knew* how to write NewGRFs...
19:40:49  <planetmaker> I wasn't born with that knowledge either ;-)
19:41:19  <ABCRic> the thing is, the industry accepts the cargo, but the industry tiles don't
19:41:51  <ABCRic> So I better find me a NewGRF NFO guide...
19:43:22  <planetmaker> you have to define it for both
19:44:03  <ABCRic> But how can I do that in GRFMaker?
19:45:15  <ABCRic> Wait, I think I found out.
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19:47:23  <azaghal> Howdy
19:48:02  <azaghal> Currently the dedicated server seems to ignore the save_on_exit option. Is this on purpose?
19:50:34  <andythenorth> ABCRic: I was born with the knowledge to write NewGRFS
19:50:43  <andythenorth> it was a prodigious talent to have in 1986
19:50:48  <andythenorth> or even 197
19:50:49  <andythenorth> 8
19:51:01  <andythenorth> but it was not very useful in 1978 :P
19:51:15  <ABCRic> of course it was!
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19:52:24  <Rubidium> azaghal: don't see a reason why dedicated servers would behave differently (if you shut them down with "quit")
19:53:31  <azaghal> Rubidium: Ok, for example - if I kill a running OpenTTD GUI process, it does an autosave (exit.sav). If I do the same with dedicated server, it ignores it.
19:53:55  <azaghal> Rubidium: Now, no idea if this is related to the fact the option falls within GUI options, so it's ignored in dedicated server?
19:54:37  <Rubidium> azaghal: the code does suggest both should behave the same, *assuming* you exit with "quit" (not with CTRL+C)
19:55:21  <azaghal> Rubidium: Ctrl-C makes it autosave as well (the graphical interface).
19:55:28  <azaghal> Dedicated doesn't.
19:55:36  <azaghal> This is with 1.0.3
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19:56:21  <andythenorth> good night
19:56:33  <Rubidium> it works for me for the dedicated server
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19:57:01  <Rubidium> in both trunk as well as 1.0.4-RC1
19:57:03  <azaghal> Rubidium: You run the dedicated server, then do a pkill openttd (or by pid), and it autosaves?
19:57:19  <Rubidium> and 1.0.3 as well
19:57:37  <azaghal> Hm... Doesn't work like that here :/
19:57:55  <Rubidium> no, as I've said multiple times is ``with "quit"''
19:58:02  <azaghal> Ah, ok.
19:58:16  <azaghal> The thing is that GUI client autosaves even with Ctrl+C
19:58:34  <azaghal> (or kill/pkill)
19:58:41  <planetmaker> does it?
19:58:45  <azaghal> Yep
19:58:55  <Rubidium> then sdl or allegro is doing something funny
19:59:27  <azaghal> I actually like the fact it's auto-saving (trying to put down a small management script for OpenTTD)
19:59:28  <Ammler> hmm, with qujt, you get a save "exit.sav"?
19:59:34  <azaghal> Ammler: Yes
19:59:43  <Ammler> where is that?
19:59:44  <azaghal> That's on Gentoo, I could give a go on Sidux too.
19:59:45  <Rubidium> hmm... oh, it just quits without asking whether you want to exit if you've got autosave_on_exit disabled
19:59:46  <azaghal> *it a
19:59:54  <Rubidium> that's "nasty"
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20:00:17  <azaghal> autosave_on_exit is enabled, though
20:00:52  <Rubidium> yeah, point is sdl/allegro is catching the ctrl+c and sending a "normal" "user has pressed the exit button" event
20:01:04  <azaghal> Ah
20:01:25  <azaghal> Gotcha
20:02:09  <azaghal> Was it intentional not to autosave on SIGTERM?
20:03:56  <Rubidium> incoming answer
20:04:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20783 /trunk/src/video/dedicated_v.cpp: -Change/Fix: do autosave-on-exit as well when using kill/CTRL-C to terminate a dedicated OpenTTD
20:04:17  <azaghal> lol
20:04:25  <azaghal> Rubidium: Thanks :)
20:05:05  <azaghal> Btw, anything easy-to-use for communicating with dedicated servers from command-line? I've seen the Python library - is it friendly API?
20:08:04  <Rubidium> if it's the library I think you're talking about, then it's probably not a very stable thing; it uses the same protocol as normal clients which does some tests to check whether the client and server's version match.
20:08:06  <GT> I'm converting the blend algorithm of the 32bpp-ez patch to use ints again iso floats (Szvengar introduced the floats), cause I think it would be faster. But I realized I learned to program in the stone age, where floating point ops where very expensive. Does anyone know whether there's still a large speed difference on modern processors
20:09:15  <Rubidium> and as such it requires downloading the whole map and following up on sync packets; basically it's a waste of good resources
20:10:09  <Rubidium> besides that there's ap+ which wraps itself around OpenTTD itself; it communicates with OpenTTD using (basically) stdout and stdin. You can then communicate with that bot via IRC
20:10:32  <GT> *ops were
20:11:45  <azaghal> Rubidium: Hm... I'm looking more for a local-only solution (without using IRC).
20:11:58  <Rubidium> running it within screen?
20:12:12  <Rubidium> then you've got direct contact with it
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20:12:42  <azaghal> Rubidium: It just accepts commands?
20:12:59  <Rubidium> the same as the in-game console
20:13:47  <azaghal> I need to set all drivers to null then, right?
20:14:01  <Rubidium> -D does that automatically
20:14:45  <azaghal> Ah...
20:14:59  <azaghal> I didn't know that it's a console ;)
20:15:16  <azaghal> Nice, some piping can be done to send commands with it.
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20:20:01  <Rubidium> GT: that's very hard to say; it depends highly on CPU, compiler, number of variables, dependency of variables, and many other factors
20:20:18  <azaghal> Rubidium: Thanks, you have no idea how much you helped :)
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20:21:16  <Rubidium> GT: might be interesting, although it's more about memory access than integer vs floating point, but it should give you an idea how increadibly complex those pieces of silicon are and that without lots of testing you can't say much about it
20:22:47  <Rubidium> azaghal: more than the last person sending a mail to :)
20:22:59  <azaghal> Heheh
20:25:18  <Rubidium> and for history's sake: the issue was introduced between 0.3.4 and 0.3.5
20:25:52  <Rubidium> so "only" 6 years before someone noticed it
20:26:23  <azaghal> Heheh :)
20:26:34  <azaghal> It happens
20:26:40  <azaghal> At least it's not an openssl bug ;)
20:27:42  <Rubidium> but... this is (effectively) a data-loss bug
20:28:45  <azaghal> True that
20:29:03  <azaghal> Funny how the bug gets discovered, though ;)
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21:11:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:26:36  <Belugas> night all good weekend all see you soon and hopefully
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21:29:26  <GT> Rubidium: thnaks for the link, I just listened to that presentation, and though I knew most of the subparts of those optimisations, this guy manages to make a coherent story out of it, really interesting. Bottom line, as always, start gprof
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21:44:23  <GT> Hi Zuu, still busy with clueless?
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21:55:29  <Zuu> Hi GT
21:55:56  <GT> aka GeekToo, but you probably knew
21:56:08  <Zuu> Yea GeekToo I knew :-)
21:57:09  <Zuu> Not really, I've not been working activly on it the last 2-3 months. Have finalized my master thesis and now I just started to work with traffic analysis for living.
21:57:38  <GT> traffic analysis, does sound interesting, actually
21:57:54  <Rubidium> sounds useful for an AI :)
21:58:00  <GT> indeed
21:58:15  <GT> and also for Leenderheide
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21:58:32  <GT> though that may be my local problem
21:58:40  <Zuu> :-)
21:59:51  <GT> so, what is it about, making models for traffic flows and optimize them?
22:00:29  <Zuu> That's one possible thing we could do.
22:00:59  <Zuu> There is models for everything from a single intersection to a whole country.
22:01:46  <Zuu> The whole Sweden-model is of course not really that detailed. Thankfully.
22:02:12  <GT> well, there's a lot to optimize I think, start with replacing every intersection with a turbo-roundabout
22:02:39  <Rubidium> GT: nah, that's not effective
22:02:48  <GT> It is.
22:02:51  <Zuu> We do not have the turbo here, but I've read about it when I made my master thesis.
22:04:23  <Rubidium>,4.666572&sspn=0.025189,0.024676&ie=UTF8&ll=52.063665,4.37537&spn=0.012572,0.012338&z=16 <- way more effective :)
22:04:24  <GT> Basically, it is a double roundabout, where you have to choose when entering for going straight/ right, or straight/ left
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22:05:42  <GT> Rubidium: very likely for highway crossings, but take too much space for local intersections
22:07:08  <Rubidium> but a turbo-roundabout can deadlock
22:07:14  <GT> The default solution now is to have traffic lights, which is the worst of all, humans are way more effective to estimate whether entering an roundabout is possible
22:07:18  <Rubidium> and has merge-before-split
22:07:40  <GT> Im sure they read the openttdcoop manuals
22:09:02  <GT> in my perception, turbo has split before merge.
22:09:53  <GT>
22:10:07  <GT> the split  is already made before the roundabout
22:11:48  <GT> and deadlocks are not likely, since traffic on the roundabout has prio over traffic entering it.
22:11:51  <Rubidium> if you're going to the left you'll still be blocking (at least) two others, although you're reducing it by one from a normal roundabout
22:14:04  <GT> true, it's not ideal, but given the space, and compared to normal traffic lights and normal roundabouts, it's way better. I'm not sure a better solution in the limited space is possible, without having height differences
22:14:27  <GT> like viaducts etc, which do cost a lot more
22:16:57  <Rubidium> GT: TTD style junctions work best :)
22:17:29  <GT> Of course, no need to state the obvious
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22:34:34  <ccfreak2k> There should be real-life injectors.
22:34:46  <ccfreak2k> On red, stay right and maintain minimum speed of 60 mph.
22:34:51  <ccfreak2k> On green gogogo!
22:37:47  <Zuu> Rubidium: sure it has higher capacity, but wastes a lot of land. Do we really want to get to american land use figures?
22:38:01  <Zuu> Eg. 50% roads
22:38:47  <ABCRic> good night y'all, and try not to crash at all those intersections
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22:39:57  <Rubidium> Zuu: TTD style intersections don't use much land; they don't need to, just because RVs can drive through eachother when they're crossing paths
22:40:38  <Rubidium> and in traffic jams they can drive through eachother as well
22:40:48  <Rubidium> that's definitely better than waiting 9 days :)
22:41:19  <Zuu> waiting 9 days?
22:42:06  <Rubidium> that 9 day traffic jam in China not long ago?
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23:42:55  <Mazur> That's nothing, in Coop we achieve much longer trafffic jams without even trying.
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