Log for #openttd on 28th September 2010:
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07:36:31  <dihedral> good morning
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08:07:12  <andythenorth_> morning
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08:20:23  <Terkhen> good morning
08:35:43  <andythenorth_> hi Terkhen
08:36:14  * andythenorth_ thinks FIRS might be fun for coop
08:36:26  <andythenorth_> one person handles delivering supplies, the other deals with main routes
08:39:51  <Terkhen> IIRC there are some FIRS games in the public archive
08:40:57  <Terkhen> in the games I played with my friends (a lot of months ago) one took care of supplies while the others chose a chain to develop
08:41:14  <andythenorth_> makes sense
08:41:27  <andythenorth_> maybe I should find an AI that likes supplies :o
08:41:58  <andythenorth_> must be relatively easy, on the scale of writing AIs
08:42:40  * andythenorth_ ponders
08:43:16  <Terkhen> it would probably work if they prioritize supply chains, and delivering them to their own industries
08:43:23  <Terkhen> the last part might be more complicated
08:43:58  <andythenorth_> I was just thinking of a helper AI
08:44:17  <andythenorth_> as soon as supplies are available on the map, it builds routes out to nearest accepting industries
08:44:38  <andythenorth_> if average supplies waiting at source > 0, it keeps building more routes
08:44:54  <andythenorth_> 1 small vehicle per route: ships, RVs and planes only
08:45:42  <andythenorth_> hmm
08:45:50  * andythenorth_ likes delivering supplies anyway
08:46:02  <andythenorth_> just not in 1901 with bad RVs
08:46:34  <andythenorth_> I need to make a smaller ship in FISH as well
08:47:31  <Terkhen> that would be boring :)
08:47:45  <Terkhen> I prefer to deliver things myself
08:48:37  <andythenorth_> exactly :)
08:48:44  <andythenorth_> hmm
08:49:02  <andythenorth_> I made a FIRS parameter to prevent primary industry production falling
08:49:13  <andythenorth_> which is useful
08:49:43  <andythenorth_> I would rather have this (but might be too complicated)
08:49:56  <andythenorth_> - industry has baseline production.  Production will not fall below this value
08:50:13  <andythenorth_> - supplies boosts production.  If supplies arent delivered in a month, production can fall back towards baseline
08:50:41  <andythenorth_> this I would prefer personally, but is it too complicated to explain?
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08:51:52  <Terkhen> wasn't that the default behaviour some time ago?
08:52:56  <andythenorth_> nearly
08:53:09  <andythenorth_> the primary production could also fall below the baseline however
08:53:26  <andythenorth_> it's irritating on larger maps
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09:21:22  <Terkhen> so, currently, production will either fall down to nothing as with standard industries or don't drop at all?
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09:48:03  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: yes, production either falls, or is fixed
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10:44:46  <Fuco> Can someone briefly explain how OTTD multiplayer is synced over the network? Is it synced every frame? Like a server sending a request to calculate 1 frame, then waiting for ack and repeat?
10:45:17  <Fuco> I'm looking at the code but I have pretty much no knowledge of codebase so it's all kind of just guessing at this point
10:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe it's every 100*net_frame_freq ticks
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10:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the server just goes on calculating ticks and sending a heartbeat. if a client can't keep up for more than 10 (ingame) days [~4 seconds], it gets kicked
10:47:46  <Fuco> and if one client is going too fast, it's then suspended to wait for others?
10:49:06  <Fuco> by "calculating ticks" you mean it actaully "play" the game right?
10:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:50:20  <Fuco> ok this seems reasonable
10:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> like moving vehicles forward, and handling player [client] input
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10:51:05  <Fuco> and broadcasting the commands to others
10:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> commands are the player input
10:51:41  <Fuco> I'm just having fun with my small game project and I thought, well, MP would be sweet challenge
10:51:53  <Fuco> and it's quite similar to OTTD so the net code might work similarly
10:52:05  <Fuco> in a sense you build "stuff" with other players
10:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it all boils down to a few design decisions: like do you a) let the server do the calculations, and broadcast the result [bandwidth heavy], or b) let the clients calculate everything, and exchange synch status [cpu heavy]
10:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd does version b)
10:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on the nature of your game, version b) requires the client to see things that the player shouldn't see, allowing for "wallhacks" etc.
10:55:03  <peter1138> Do you allow prediction?
10:55:28  <Fuco> yea, I was aiming for b) anyway
10:55:33  <peter1138> Doesn't really apply to a game like OpenTTD, mind.
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10:55:42  <Fuco> a) is also CPU heavy on server
10:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Fuco: the server is just a glorified client in that way
10:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "first under equals"
10:56:11  <Fuco> well the game is a coop, so players see the whole map anyway
10:56:14  <peter1138> s/glorified/cut-down/ :)
10:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, there are non-dedicated servers ;)
10:56:43  <Fuco> well, that's quite right actually, now when I think about it
10:56:46  <peter1138> !
10:56:47  <peter1138> You lie!
10:57:49  <peter1138> That needn't be the case. Some games start a dedicated server even for single player games.
10:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> freeciv
10:58:12  <peter1138> Aye
10:58:14  <Fuco> well I probably get to actually do this like after a month or so, but I wanted to know a bit about it so I can design the stuff better
10:58:27  <Fuco> like the input queues and such
10:58:45  <peter1138> I made a mistake with a game I wrote :(
10:58:55  <peter1138> I used OpenTTD-style networking, because it was a tile-based game.
10:59:00  <Fuco> "Some games start a dedicated server even for single player games" that might probably save some trouble
10:59:04  <peter1138> But it's also an action game.
10:59:11  <Fuco> you just write one server and on client, instead of SP and MP client version
10:59:19  <peter1138> Network latency makes it unplayable across the Internet :(
10:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Fuco: it's basically about how far you can separate logic and gui
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10:59:58  <Fuco> well you should always separate those completely :P
11:00:10  <peter1138> You'd hope :)
11:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Fuco: the further you separate them, the more data exchange you have to make
11:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> which might become the bottleneck
11:01:07  <Fuco> hmm, I'm not quite sure what you mean now
11:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a basic rule of parallel computing...
11:01:24  <Fuco> by GUI you mean all the rendering or just the input handling?
11:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> both
11:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is: how easily can you exctract the fraction of the game state that is relevant for displaying
11:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> because that's the part that needs to be exchanged between client and server
11:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> answering that question is key for deciding the architecture: monolithic program, separate threads, separate processes, ...?
11:05:24  <Fuco> right now it simply runs in the standard while loop, with some things threaded during the update routine (pathfiding, weather calculations, water flow, unit state updates)
11:05:56  <Fuco> then I join on all those threads and re-draw the scene
11:05:58  <Fuco> and repeat
11:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> see, and now if you separate this into threads [tighter communication (e.g. shared memory)] or processes [loose communication (e.g. network protocol)], then you can't guarantee anymore that the redrawing loop is synched with the updating loop
11:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the redrawing loop will request a part of game state, that might currently be updating
11:08:15  <Fuco> no no, before I call redraw I wait for all the threads to complete
11:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't call redraw anymore, if they're separate
11:09:35  <Rubidium> threading and everyone executing the same might be quite troublesome
11:09:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if they are separate processes, all you can do is send a packet "i'm done updating, you can redraw now"
11:09:50  <Rubidium> also OpenTTD's separation of GUI and logic isn't that great
11:09:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but the client might or might not handle that in time
11:10:00  <Fuco>
11:10:07  <Fuco> it works like this
11:10:15  <Fuco> (pseudocode)
11:11:45  <Fuco> so in a sense, the "update" routine is seen as atomic for the redraw()
11:12:36  <Rubidium> yes, but if all clients need to execute it the exact same way you can't have them 'communicating' with eachother
11:12:57  <Rubidium> e.g. the pathfinder in one run can't influence the units
11:13:40  <Fuco> ah I see what you mean
11:13:55  <Fuco> well, this was pretty much just the example but yes, all the parallel threads will be independent
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11:19:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Fuco: what i mean is, for GUI (redraw) and logic (update) to be separated into processes, the redraw can't be an "atomic" method anymore.
11:20:18  <Fuco> but they are not running in parallel
11:20:26  <Fuco> redraw is always called after all the updates are finished
11:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> if they become processes, they will be doing that.
11:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> right now, the example you gave is "monolithic"
11:21:32  <Fuco> yes, I'm going to stick with that :P
11:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> alright, i was just saying it's a design decision...
11:22:53  <Rubidium> yeah, the microkernel OpenTTD didn't get far
11:23:51  <Fuco> One more question about the command distribution. I assume the client where the command originate will also wait for it to be trasmited back by server? So it recieve it at the same time as the other clients?
11:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> by the time it receives the command back, it has forgotten that it even sent it
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11:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> might as well have been from a different client in the same company
11:25:11  <Rubidium> hell, when it actually sents the command it has already forgotten about it :)
11:25:42  <Fuco> I'm just looking at the
11:25:43  <Fuco> void NetworkSend_Command(TileIndex tile, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, uint32 cmd, CommandCallback *callback, const char *text, CompanyID company)
11:25:51  <Fuco> and I wasn't sure about the callback
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11:26:10  <Fuco> surely when the pointer is sent over the network it won't be of any use for other clients
11:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that does. i have not looked that deeply into the network protocol
11:27:25  <Noldo> Fuco: I'm sure they are somehow numbered
11:28:06  <Fuco> what is "they"?
11:28:09  <Noldo> command
11:28:10  <Noldo> s
11:28:12  <Fuco> ah
11:28:30  <Fuco> well, yea, they should probably be executed in some fixed order
11:28:49  <Fuco> removing a construction before placing it would be... unpleasant :P
11:29:47  <Rubidium> the callback is for (stupid) stuff like sounds and building the rail/road before a depot/station
11:30:22  <Fuco> so it's kind of "ottd" specific
11:30:34  <Fuco> not the general "must have" of the idea
11:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to design things properly, you might also want to replace "uint32 p1" by a "PackedParameterUnion p1" or similar
11:33:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just this way because the network protocol is from C [without ++] times
11:33:36  <Fuco> well, I'm not using C, so no unions for me
11:34:08  <Rubidium> unions might not be that good for network protocols though
11:34:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, it might be a nicer way to handle the bitstuffing magic that is going on
11:36:13  <Rubidium> true, as long as the syntax sugar has a strictly defined behaviour
11:37:48  <Rubidium> but then you also have stuff like endianness issues with low level languages like C and C++
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11:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> with java you can do lots of evil stuff, like sending the whole class and having it dynamically loaded into the other clients :p
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13:07:33  <demanufacture> hello
13:07:51  <demanufacture> is there any way to automatically replace old trains with new one?
13:08:10  <fjb> Yes
13:08:41  <demanufacture> and where i can find it?
13:09:35  <fjb> In the list of your vehicles.
13:10:41  <fjb> Or dod you mean replacing it with the same vehicle? There is an "auto renew" setting in the advanced settings.
13:10:49  <Rubidium> it's called autorenew (if you want to keep the same type) or autoreplace (if you want another vehicle type)
13:11:04  <Rubidium> the wiki has more information about it
13:11:52  <demanufacture> ok
13:12:32  <demanufacture> and in case when there is no more normal train vehicles and there is only monorail?
13:13:01  <V453000> turn off expiring vehicles and use reset_engines (?) in the console afaik
13:13:07  <demanufacture> i must rebuild it all?
13:13:32  <demanufacture> is it not a cheat?
13:13:41  <V453000> umm, no
13:13:44  <V453000> just changing settings
13:14:36  <V453000> there is a setting "vehicles never expire" ... you need to have it on ;) I expect it somewhere in the vehicles subtab ... and I recommend to have that on by default :)
13:14:45  <V453000> so that it doesnt happen again ;)
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13:20:14  <demanufacture> thanx a lot
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13:23:26  <V453000>  youre welcome :)
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13:35:53  <Belugas> hgello
13:35:55  <Belugas> -g
13:40:45  <Rubidium> heh, did you know that modifying and distributing OpenTTD is illegal according to Luukland?
13:42:23  <Rubidium> (fairly) clearly states that, after all OpenTTD's sources must be a part of "THE GOULP PRO DEV TEAM Technology, or any part thereof"
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13:44:09  <Fuco> You might ask, what is so special? Well here are a few answers to that one!*
13:44:12  <Fuco> - Only server where players actually prefer cars above trains!
13:44:17  <Fuco> that did it for me
13:45:43  <demanufacture> trains arent better?
13:47:06  <Fuco> is that a question?
13:48:54  <V453000> :D
13:49:08  <Fuco> well it can either be a question or a sarcastic remark
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13:49:45  <V453000> luukland servers are ridiculously bad, I wouldnt talk about them to stay politically correct :P
13:50:25  <Rubidium> I'm just wondering how I should interprete their guidelines exactly
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13:54:30  <Rubidium> I like it that you're not allowed to play on that server with your family or at most LAN parties
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13:56:14  <Rubidium> although you might even read their rules as: sharing a dynamic IP with some other player is disallowed as well
13:57:32  <V453000> iirc their channel (at least used to be) is #goulp ... if you want to ask them :p
13:58:02  <dihedral> i do not think Rubidium would last very long in that universe, as the wiki claims that nobody likes him :-P
13:58:16  <V453000> I guess :)
13:58:20  <dihedral> however, i must admit, they have a well administered games
13:58:55  <dihedral> and they are making an effort in making sure users do not come here to complain about bugs - not saying it is always successful, but they are trying
13:59:13  <dihedral> which one cannot say about a bunch of other server admins :-P
13:59:33  <V453000> :)
13:59:51  <peter1138> So they have lawyers now?
14:00:05  <dihedral> i cannot say that i like the fact that they run heavily patched games
14:00:06  <peter1138> (Or just copied some other EULA...)
14:00:12  <dihedral> :-D
14:00:23  <Rubidium> "e) Using a different program then OpenTTD as interface between the player and his game is prohibited." <- that's the one I like most
14:00:42  <dihedral> :-P
14:00:47  <dihedral> i joined with my bot once
14:00:49  <peter1138> Did you add all the stuff to make their life difficult?
14:00:58  <dihedral> in all luukland servers i found :-D
14:01:02  <peter1138> Just for having that stupidly long document...
14:01:56  <Rubidium> peter1138: actually, that document was placed there by a Luukland
14:02:17  <peter1138> Rubidium, obviously. I mean stuff in OpenTTD's networking etc...
14:02:28  <peter1138> Like desync checks...
14:03:35  <Rubidium> nah, desync checks aren't the main problem... it's my favoritism to fixing remote-exploit-bugs over keeping stuff they're using
14:04:03  <dihedral> "you certify that you (a) are at least fifteen (15) years of age," :-P
14:04:17  <dihedral> my name is not "a"
14:05:41  <V453000> lmao, they require their users to be @least 15 years old?
14:05:54  <V453000> then why do there play people with brains of 10year olds
14:06:54  <Rubidium> in any case, I'm wondering whether the guidelines tell me that *my* masterserver and updater application may access their server as it's an interface between players and their games
14:07:09  <V453000> :D
14:07:15  <dihedral> \o/
14:07:20  * dihedral smirks
14:07:30  <V453000> that is ridiculous
14:07:40  <V453000> well maybe rather sad
14:07:40  <dihedral> "Any situation intended to saturate a players interface through any method is forbidden."
14:07:54  <dihedral> that may apply then too
14:08:52  <Rubidium> it's not intended to saturate that interface
14:11:19  <dihedral> a players interface
14:11:21  <dihedral> i.e. the lobby
14:15:29  <dihedral> that page is rather amusing
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14:17:13  <dihedral> "THE GOULP PRO DEV TEAM' or its respective parents, subsidiaries, affiliates, successors, assigns, employees, agents, directors, officers or shareholders" <- HAHA
14:17:44  <V453000> I really wonder why all that bullshit tbh
14:17:46  <dihedral> i bet their parents would spank their arses for some of that bs :-P
14:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> [28.09.2010 16:00] <dihedral> i joined with my bot once <-- it's ok, as long as it has "OpenTTD" as name :p
14:20:28  <V453000> :D
14:21:44  <dihedral> :-P
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14:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well, obviously they made no other requirements what does actually constitute the program of "OpenTTD" that they want to be required
14:29:49  <dihedral> "Resale Prohibited Products sold from the Website" ... erm
14:30:19  <Ammler> well, at least you read that page :-P
14:30:38  <peter1138> I wonder what products they sell...
14:31:20  <V453000> shit, what else :)
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14:34:20  <Rubidium> probably something with cats
14:44:03  <dihedral> "Only server where planes are allowed!" yet nobody on the servers semms to care :-D
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15:11:51  <KouDy> hi
15:14:15  <KouDy> i would have question... if i started new game with autorenew disabled and enabled it later, is it allright that trains just don't get reaplaced in depos?
15:15:54  <Ammler> autorenew != autoreplace, does the vehicle still exist?
15:17:06  <KouDy> yes
15:17:29  <KouDy> autorenew i believe is replacing old vehicles with same one (but new)
15:17:46  <KouDy> while autoreplace is switching from one engine to another
15:22:04  <dihedral> and you have enough money right?
15:22:17  <KouDy> yes
15:22:30  <dihedral> and it's not a setting on a server
15:23:36  <KouDy> it's single player
15:24:05  <dihedral> and the vehicle can still be bought
15:24:09  <KouDy> yes
15:24:41  <dihedral> how old is the train?
15:24:54  <KouDy> 22 from 22
15:26:01  <KouDy> my point is tho... that maybe this option cannot be changed after the game is created
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15:26:52  <Rubidium> it can
15:27:02  <KouDy> yea thought so...
15:27:32  <planetmaker> KouDy: but not by editing the config file :-)
15:27:38  <planetmaker> hello folks :-)
15:28:05  <KouDy> so settings there are 3, first is on, second is 6 months (i tried 12 too), and last one is a bit tricky, default is 200k, i tried that increased too but didn't help
15:28:34  <planetmaker> how much money do you have?
15:28:53  <planetmaker> you mucht have _MORE_ than the amount of money stated there
15:28:59  <Rubidium> the number is the amount of months after its aging, so with 12 it'll only replace them when 1 year too old
15:29:13  <KouDy> well i have about 400M
15:29:16  <KouDy> :)
15:29:33  <Rubidium> the amount of money is the amount that should remain after replacing, so... setting that higher does make the chance it happens lower
15:29:54  <KouDy> ahh
15:29:55  <KouDy> ok
15:29:59  <KouDy> perfect
15:30:19  <KouDy> but i have significantly more money than is combined price of all trains all together
15:32:15  <planetmaker> KouDy: but as Rubidium just told: your autoreplace settings will replace only when the train is 23/22 years :-)
15:32:57  <KouDy> option says : when vehicle is 12 months before/after max age
15:33:11  <KouDy> hence it should replace between 21 to 23 no?
15:33:20  <KouDy> that's how i would understand it
15:38:21  <KouDy> moving along with some more questions...
15:38:49  <KouDy> is there some option for how many windows can be shown same time
15:38:51  <KouDy> ?
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15:41:18  <Rubidium> yes, not sure how it's called though
15:42:09  <KouDy> ok i will search
15:42:12  <KouDy> don't worry
15:42:20  <KouDy> and now heavier stuff :)
15:42:34  <KouDy> so i have about 100 trains
15:45:11  <KouDy> and reaching year 2000 meaning monrail becomes available, is there any way how to replace regular train with monorail one and keep it's destinations?
15:45:40  <KouDy> because what i tried, it didn't really work... plan was gone and i would have to manually set 100 trains again
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15:48:40  <glx> only manual way
15:50:20  <KouDy> ok
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15:51:44  <Ammler> glx: are you able to remember what is the max. sum of the probabilities for a town names part?
15:51:59  <Ammler> or where I could look to see that
15:52:11  <glx> hmm depends on number of parts IIRC
15:52:48  <Ammler> doesn't every part randomize for itslef?
15:55:03  <Ammler> <-- nml does split the parts self, but I guess the last part has too high sum (6500) for the probabilities
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15:58:14  <glx> each part has a "weight", max prob is sum of all weight
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16:00:20  <glx> so the max is (if I read the spec correctly) 2^255
16:01:24  <Ammler> really that high?
16:01:27  <glx> well 2^32 indeed as the seed is 32bit only
16:01:44  <Ammler> that is still >6500, hmm
16:03:16  <Ammler> I have quite much teh feeling that it doens't work and the names in the last part with the subparts are prefered
16:04:50  <KouDy> chceking about 30 trains same time and autorenew seems to be working
16:04:54  <KouDy> so good
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16:08:37  <Ammler> if I generate a town names with 10 names, I have 8 names with 1, 1 10 and 1 4
16:13:44  <planetmaker> behold: "Because of inconstancy of trunk and maybe some bugs. Yes, there are some additions, but not so much." <-- so did you know that current trunk is inconsistent? ;-)
16:14:21  <Yexo> Ammler: I just created a game with 12 towns, 4x16 and 8x4 probability
16:14:38  <Ammler> with swisstowns?
16:16:04  <Yexo> yes
16:16:20  <Yexo> another game generated, 14 towns total: 1x32, 3x16 and 11x4
16:16:47  <Yexo> testing with openttd 1.0.4
16:17:19  <demanufacture> how its working?
16:17:25  <demanufacture> 1.04
16:17:26  <demanufacture> ?
16:17:45  <planetmaker> not at all
16:17:49  <planetmaker> :-P
16:17:56  <planetmaker> it's usually playing
16:18:14  <Ammler> and with .
16:18:15  * planetmaker hides
16:19:36  * fjb unhides planetmaker.
16:20:00  <planetmaker> :-(
16:20:10  <Ammler> made another map, 1 with 4, the rest 1
16:20:59  * planetmaker goes hiding again, this time in the the talk on "origins, surprises and future of GPS"
16:22:37  <Ammler> Yexo: the problem is, if I rise the probability of the "big" towns again, I do lose a lot names for a big map
16:23:36  <fjb> GPS for TTD?
16:24:26  <Yexo> Ammler: that has nothing to do with your original perceived problem (that somehow the probabilities are not taken in account correctly), which I can't reproduce
16:25:12  <Ammler> I have no idea, how to debug this
16:25:27  <Ammler> I just generate a map and check the list
16:25:59  <Ammler> is there a special debug level for it?
16:28:24  <Yexo> no
16:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: is that where the russians want to start their own one, and the european one is in eternal "we're just about doing a DNF on this" mode?
16:32:58  <glx> Ammler: with all the 0x7F prob, the sum is high
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16:42:57  <GecK> hi guys
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17:01:29  <Wolf01> hello
17:09:00  <demanufacture> anyone here have dell precision?
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17:12:30  <Belugas> mmh
17:12:44  <Belugas> luukland policy seems to be a big job
17:12:55  <Rubidium> ... of copy-paste-replace
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17:15:51  * Rubidium wonders why demanufacture wants to know that
17:16:35  <demanufacture> Rubidium: maybe somebody have here bios rom with AC adapter blocade turned off
17:16:56  <demanufacture> there is something like that in dell laptops
17:17:20  <demanufacture> if your ac adapter is broken then your pc operates slower
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17:17:37  <demanufacture> i have broken ac adapter detector on motherboard
17:17:43  <demanufacture> so nothing i can do
17:17:50  <peter1138> Ouch
17:17:51  <demanufacture> even new adapters wont work
17:17:54  <peter1138> Thanks for the warning...
17:18:04  <demanufacture> dont buy dell
17:18:08  <peter1138> Not that it's related to OpenTTD :)
17:18:28  <demanufacture> or you can but with 3 year warranty
17:18:38  <Rubidium> ghehe, then I guess this Precision doesn't quite help you
17:19:23  <demanufacture> Rubidium: it doesnt
17:19:31  <demanufacture> :D
17:19:32  <Rubidium> though I've been having a Dell laptop for 5 years and never had AC adapter problems
17:19:48  <demanufacture> you had luck
17:20:11  <demanufacture> with new adapters there are no problems
17:20:15  <Ammler> I needed 2 new for mine too
17:20:39  <demanufacture> but if i have broken detector that makes nothing to me
17:20:47  <demanufacture> Ammler: new, slim adapters?
17:21:12  <Rubidium> though I have to agree that their support staff is somewhat stupid
17:21:14  <Ammler> the first was in warranty, the second I bought
17:21:37  <demanufacture> i'm looking for way to pass that
17:21:59  <demanufacture> i can buy new adapter but in my case i must buy new motherboard
17:22:03  <Ammler> but I would still buy dell, I am happy with it else
17:22:26  <demanufacture> Ammler: i'm thinking about buy dell vostro 3700
17:22:38  <Belugas> indeed to copy-paste-replace.  But that's the idea behind the big joke, in fact.  It's so enormous that it's laughable, and should only be consdered as a joke, i'd say
17:22:52  <demanufacture> core i5 geforce 330m 4gb ram ddr3 and 320GB disk 7200 rpm
17:23:00  <demanufacture> but 17" :(
17:23:10  <demanufacture> i prefer 15,4" laptops
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17:24:49  <Rubidium> then search for a 15.4" one
17:25:37  <demanufacture> i cant find one which fits me
17:25:39  * andythenorth_ ponders buying a mac
17:26:01  <demanufacture> always there is something i want change
17:26:15  <demanufacture> when i was buying this one there was nothing to change
17:26:22  <demanufacture> its dell precision m65
17:26:34  <andythenorth_> buy a mac.  Then you get what steve jobs wanted, you don't get to choose anything :P
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17:26:50  <demanufacture> :D
17:27:03  <demanufacture> I heard that macs in US are very cheap
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17:27:55  <demanufacture> i have nothing against mac
17:28:03  <Rubidium> yeah, until you import them into Europe...
17:28:18  <Rubidium> even then they're not that cheap
17:28:19  <demanufacture> i just need hardware
17:28:43  <andythenorth_> not cheap at all
17:28:56  <andythenorth_> they got more fricking expensive the last few years, and no refurb bargains either
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17:29:22  <andythenorth_> time was when new macs cost me about £600 + VAT.  Now they're more like £999 + VAT
17:29:29  <demanufacture> :/
17:29:31  <andythenorth_> it's nearly one for the price of two :|
17:32:38  <demanufacture> and how wht ati/amd in laptops?
17:32:49  <demanufacture> with?
17:34:39  <demanufacture> i've been never using laptop with ati graphics and amd cpu?
17:34:58  <demanufacture> (without "?")
17:35:00  <demanufacture> :)
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17:38:07  <Ammler> nvidia has also better linux support
17:38:24  <demanufacture> i know
17:38:38  <demanufacture> but i heard that they fixed ati issues on linux
17:39:02  <demanufacture> fglrx working very fine with ati radeon hd cards
17:39:08  <Ammler> well, today it is hard to find hardware not working with linux
17:39:19  <demanufacture> true
17:39:44  <Ammler> but mostly not thanks to the manufacturer :-)
17:40:00  <demanufacture> maybe thats better in a lot of cases :D
17:41:29  <demanufacture> i'm still waiting for final version of ati OS drivers
17:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20855 /trunk/src/lang/ (portuguese.txt ukrainian.txt):
17:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
17:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 4 changes by Fixer
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18:05:40  <andythenorth_> very TTD-style:
18:06:09  <SpComb> nice curve radius
18:06:50  <SpComb> but there's no arbitrary height differentials
18:08:56  <KouDy> is there any way how to select more trains than one and move them into some group at once?
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18:09:27  <demanufacture> i want graphics like this in openttd :D
18:09:49  <demanufacture> openttd 3d
18:10:06  <Yexo> KouDy: no, but if you use shared orders you can move all trains that share orders in one group by moving one and than selecting "move vehicles that share orders" (or somehting like that) in the dropdown at the bottom
18:14:14  <KouDy> no, i'm not useing it
18:14:26  <KouDy> now that you mention it... i didn't even know about it :D
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18:31:52  <Hirundo> andythenorth_: That's NARS, ISR, FISH, shore foundations and TTRS in one pic :)
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18:41:49  <SpComb> looks 32bpp to me
18:42:45  <Wolf01> <- pictures of the works on the railway which crosses my city (but I have better and more interesting ones)
18:43:26  <SpComb> green traffic light
18:44:37  <Wolf01> on the other side the traffic light was used ;)
18:44:59  <Wolf01> it's a sort of K intersection
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19:04:15  <frosch123> night
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20:40:21  <__ln__>
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21:04:12  <fjb> Not even 100 years. Not much in history.
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21:14:32  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:22:35  <KouDy> reinventing the wheel here, when changing train, you can do go to in plan and click on another train in depo (specifically on depo line with train) and new one will get it's plan
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21:37:02  <Belugas> big time night indeed let's go home and don't you dare move
21:37:27  <Rubidium> what? Is it halloween already? :)
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21:45:14  <fjb> Oh no...
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21:48:46  <BCMM> why can't i found large towns? the button is greyed-out, and i think i must've missed a setting somewhere
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21:51:12  <Terkhen> IIRC you could only found small/medium towns ingame
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21:52:32  <BCMM> makes it sound like you can found large ones, but it may be out of date i suppose
21:52:40  <BCMM> Terkhen: thanks
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21:58:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20856 /trunk/src/ (dock_gui.cpp engine.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#4141]: Road/water toolbars did not get updated when the first vehicle of their type becomes available.
22:00:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20857 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
22:00:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3637]: The station with the second highest rating was doubly penalised
22:00:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: when distributing cargo. Now the penalty is completely removed and the
22:00:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: granularity/precision of the distribution in increased by using fractional
22:00:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: cargo. This should make competing stations less "all-or-nothing".
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22:13:28  <GecK> good night
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22:33:09  <Terkhen> good night
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22:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> timing is bad.
22:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> now Civ5 arrived before the new computer...
22:44:13  <Lakie> Heh
22:44:25  <Lakie> Can your current computer not run it?
22:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt it
22:44:37  <Lakie> :(
22:44:42  <Lakie> That is bad timing then.
22:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Civ4 was already close to the limit
22:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and it'll probably not work in wine...
22:46:14  <Lakie> Maybe, I remember Owen saying it ran out of the box on his company's crossovergames thing
22:46:34  <Lakie> So it might
22:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i have heard people saying the demo didn't work...
22:47:19  <Lakie> Ah,
22:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and my wine is not up to date, because i had graphic card trouble with 1.3.x
22:48:19  <fjb> Better stay with OpenTTD.
22:48:23  <Lakie> Ok, well probably wouldn't work all that nice in that case..
22:56:22  <Pulec> gyus know minecraft?
22:56:44  <Pulec> i wondered how it would be like to magicially somehow convert openttd map to minecraft
22:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be silly...
22:57:11  <Pulec> not just converter though, actually working transportation
22:57:17  <Pulec> yep it would be mess
22:57:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be extremely silly
22:57:28  <Pulec> and it would needed a super computer
22:57:42  <Pulec> dwarf fotress converters work though
22:57:59  <Pulec> but only if dwarf fortress gameplay could be imported somehow
22:58:28  <dihedral> well done Rubidium :-)
22:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause> if only unreal turnament gameplay could be imported into sim city 4!
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23:00:01  <fjb> MUD! Import a MUD.
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23:01:02  <dihedral> if only all the Locomotion stuff was in OpenTTD
23:01:56  <dihedral> why can Counter Striker 1.6 not be more like Counter Strike:Source (And vise versa)
23:02:20  <fjb> Because it would be the same then?
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23:12:16  <Eddi|zuHause> weird... i already have a steam account...
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23:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> now... do i remember the password?
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23:17:22  * fjb is waiting for the day the steam servers get switched off.
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23:18:16  <Lnd> hello :3
23:19:41  <Lnd> is cargodest abandoned ?
23:20:09  <orudge> Lakie: There seem to be problems on Macs with certain graphics cards, but others have it working flawlessly, indeed
23:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Lnd: yes, but cargodist is quite up to date
23:23:40  <Lnd> oh
23:23:46  <Lnd> I have to check that
23:25:11  <Lnd> thank you
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