Log for #openttd on 1st October 2010:
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01:59:25  <Chris_Booth> evening all
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07:01:49  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:22:36  <dihedral> morning
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07:31:07  <dihedral> lol ... "i think we (read: the devs)"
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10:28:55  <Rubidium> oh boy... my lunch break skim of the wiki changes makes me (somewhat) cry
10:30:12  <Rubidium> the configuring patches window of 0.2.x is being documented at the moment
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10:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, only stuff from the next (nightly), current (1.0) and previous (0.7) stable should be documented at any time...
10:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> anything else will only become more confusing than helpful
10:35:37  <Rubidium> but... recent and current developments are very important...
10:36:04  <Rubidium> ... and (in 4 days) 3 years out of date
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11:02:09  <Ammler> well, he added the warning that the page is outdated, which isn't that bad...
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11:20:08  <Wolf01> hello
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11:21:22  <__ln__> hello ambadassor of the berlusconiland
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11:22:45  <Ammler> he added also warnings on current pages to look on old pages and reverted my try to remove it :-)
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11:35:37  <dihedral> Rubidium, can you not require people to be logged it to make changes?
11:36:11  <dihedral> hehe - lets hope he does not document each revision :-D
11:36:16  <dihedral> or v0.0.1
11:37:25  <dihedral> or inject a http reply to his next request, telling him to stop :-D
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11:54:17  <norbert79> Good day
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11:58:21  <planetmaker> g'day
11:58:57  <norbert79> hello planetmaker
12:07:06  <Rubidium> well, then send him a wiki "pm" or something
12:12:30  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker
12:13:46  <Chris_Booth> hello all
12:14:52  <planetmaker> hey norbert79 & SmatZ :-)
12:14:53  <planetmaker> & Chris_Booth
12:15:09  <norbert79> Hi SmatZ, Rubidium
12:15:11  <Chris_Booth> hi planetmaker
12:15:16  <SmatZ> hello norbert79
12:15:28  <planetmaker> highlight party ;-)
12:15:43  <Chris_Booth> Smatz, Rubidium and norbert79 hi
12:15:45  <Rubidium> anyone... @nicks?
12:15:57  <Chris_Booth> @nicks
12:15:57  <DorpsGek> Chris_Booth: ^Spike^, __ln__, Aali, ack, Adambean, Ammler, Andel, APTX, ar3kaw, ashb, asnoehu, azaghal, bartavelle, Belugas, Biolunar, blathijs, Born_Acorn, ccfreak2k, Chris_Booth, CIA-2, ctibor, Cybertinus, dfox, dihedral, DorpsGek, dotwaffle, Eddi|zuHause, elho, elmz, eQualizer, erani_, FloSoft, Fuco, George, glevans2, glx, guru3, heffer, HerzogDeXtEr, Hirundo, Joni-, jonty-comp, jpm, jpx_, JVassie_, KenjiE20, KingJ, (2 more messages)
12:16:00  <planetmaker> :-D
12:16:01  <SmatZ> hello Chris_Booth
12:16:02  <Adambean> wat
12:16:03  <SmatZ> :)
12:16:06  <planetmaker> wooot?
12:16:13  <glx> someone wants a ban ???
12:16:16  <blathijs> Why do we even have that command...
12:16:23  <eQualizer> ?
12:16:24  <Chris_Booth> I am in the nick list? how random
12:16:26  <planetmaker> and why can non-admins access it?
12:16:29  <Adambean> @nicks
12:16:29  <DorpsGek> Adambean: ^Spike^, __ln__, Aali, ack, Adambean, Ammler, Andel, APTX, ar3kaw, ashb, asnoehu, azaghal, bartavelle, Belugas, Biolunar, blathijs, Born_Acorn, ccfreak2k, Chris_Booth, CIA-2, ctibor, Cybertinus, dfox, dihedral, DorpsGek, dotwaffle, Eddi|zuHause, elho, elmz, eQualizer, erani_, FloSoft, Fuco, George, glevans2, glx, guru3, heffer, HerzogDeXtEr, Hirundo, Joni-, jonty-comp, jpm, jpx_, JVassie_, KenjiE20, KingJ, (2 more messages)
12:16:31  <Adambean> haha
12:16:32  <Rubidium> ask TrueBrain  :)
12:16:36  <APTX> wtf
12:16:40  <norbert79> What is this command for?
12:16:49  <planetmaker> norbert79: annoying everyone in the channel
12:16:53  <dihedral> erm , can that thing not be disallowed?
12:16:57  <norbert79> planetmaker: Other, than that :)
12:17:00  <glx> @help nicks
12:17:00  <DorpsGek> glx: (nicks [<channel>]) -- Returns the nicks in <channel>. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
12:17:16  <norbert79> Ah, now that is indeed annoying
12:17:20  <APTX> DorpsGek: ignored
12:17:44  <Chris_Booth> does do every one only ^Spike^  - KingJ
12:17:47  <Fuco> extremly useful command I might add
12:17:58  <Chris_Booth> and annoying
12:18:02  <dihedral> Chris_Booth, you are not familiar with the more command are you? :-P
12:18:03  <norbert79> Fuco: For spamming? Sure... But thats the only good side of it
12:18:36  <Ammler> I really should rename to zzzz
12:18:40  <Chris_Booth> yes @more dihedral should be call annoy more
12:18:45  <dihedral> Ammler, i thought the same thing
12:18:47  <planetmaker> Ammler: un-zzzz rather ;-)
12:18:58  <TrueBrain> at least it wakes up a few dead skeletons in this channel .. I don't see the issue
12:19:06  <dihedral> Chris_Booth, you are the one who started it!
12:19:06  <TrueBrain> I see people talk here now I haven't seen talk in ages
12:19:08  <planetmaker> look at all those nicks which just woke up ;-)
12:19:26  <planetmaker> hehe @ TrueBrain
12:19:45  <dihedral> set a negative capability :-P
12:19:49  <SmatZ> breaking their records in "last seen", while still being in the channel
12:19:59  <SmatZ> @seen bartavelle
12:19:59  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: bartavelle was last seen in #openttd 34 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 17 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <bartavelle> yes
12:20:05  <SmatZ> wrong guess
12:20:13  <planetmaker> @seen Bjarni
12:20:13  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 31 weeks, 1 day, 12 hours, 55 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
12:20:19  <SmatZ> :)
12:20:20  <planetmaker> bad guess, too ;-)
12:20:29  <Rubidium> @seen ludde
12:20:29  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: I have not seen ludde.
12:20:34  <SmatZ> :(
12:20:37  <Rubidium> you stupid woman!
12:20:55  <SmatZ> DorpsGek is a woman?
12:21:15  <Chris_Booth> 34 weeks is a good idle stat
12:21:25  <planetmaker> @seen snorre
12:21:25  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: snorre was last seen in #openttd 8 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 55 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <snorre> I'm running a server.. I'll just switsh to toyland for a while :P
12:21:40  <planetmaker> @seen Progman
12:21:40  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Progman was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 20 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Progman> LunarWolf: you can try this:
12:21:44  <planetmaker> hm :-)
12:21:48  <planetmaker> I should stop NOW
12:21:52  <Rubidium> SmatZ: ofcourse she is
12:21:52  <SmatZ> yup :)
12:21:53  <Chris_Booth> maybe a funny idea would be to kick people have 52 weeks
12:22:08  <SmatZ> hello DorpsGek, how are you? :)
12:22:19  <DorpsGek> I'm fine
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12:22:24  <SmatZ> ohhh <3
12:22:35  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: you scare me ... having a conversation with your own can't be a good thing ...
12:22:45  <planetmaker> :-P
12:22:52  <Chris_Booth> Webster talks back aswell
12:22:55  <glx> TrueBrain: was me ;)
12:23:12  <TrueBrain> fair enough :p
12:23:26  <Wolf01> transitive property -> glx is a woman? :O
12:23:53  *** Wolf01 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [no]
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12:24:03  <Wolf01> then smatz is gay :P
12:24:26  <Noldo> transitivity describes relations, not properies
12:24:33  <SmatZ> :)
12:25:31  <Chris_Booth> I may start a new IRC client to build up silence stats
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12:26:16  <Rubidium> Wolf01: yeah, I guess SmatZ is happily excited about that statement
12:26:42  <SmatZ> nah, DorpsGek just ignored my kick command
12:26:59  <SmatZ> and op command too
12:27:05  <SmatZ> @op
12:27:10  *** mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by Rubidium
12:27:10  <TrueBrain> @whois SmatZ
12:27:15  <TrueBrain> @whoami
12:27:15  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
12:27:16  <SmatZ> thanks Rubidium :)
12:27:23  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek: you are weird
12:27:28  <SmatZ> :(
12:27:41  <Wolf01> I put a smile at the end, so it was only for fun
12:27:56  <glx> there's no whois command
12:28:15  * Rubidium guesses Wolf01 didn't take a look at the dictionary yet
12:28:29  <SmatZ> @whoami
12:28:29  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I don't recognize you.
12:28:32  <Wolf01> ok, the other meaning
12:28:36  <dihedral> @whoami
12:28:36  <DorpsGek> dihedral: dih
12:28:37  <dihedral> :-P
12:28:42  <norbert79> @whoareyou
12:28:53  <norbert79> dang, dind't work :)
12:29:13  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: looks like your daughter hit puberty
12:29:18  <SmatZ> :)
12:29:19  <glx> SmatZ: /msg DorpsGek identify maybe
12:29:37  <Chris_Booth> glx whoi is maybe?
12:29:55  <Chris_Booth> :P
12:30:22  <Rubidium> @calc 2.11/8*3600*24*365/1024
12:30:22  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 8122.67578125
12:30:29  <SmatZ> glx: thanks, I don't remember I even needed to do that
12:30:33  <norbert79> @help
12:30:33  <DorpsGek> norbert79: help [<plugin>] [<command>]
12:30:40  <norbert79> @listcmds
12:30:50  <norbert79> never mind, just testing
12:30:51  <glx> SmatZ: maybe it failed to recognise your host
12:30:59  <Rubidium> hmm, we only used 8 TiB of the 24 TiB we've got available :)
12:31:57  *** SmatZ [] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!]
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12:35:33  <Rubidium> although we shouldn't forget the 1.25 TiB a month offloaded to the mirrors
12:35:40  <Rubidium> @calc 1.25*12
12:35:40  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 15
12:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably "cheating", but:
12:37:39  <Rubidium> (although that figure is of the last two months which were much quieter than April)
12:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> @seen spbot
12:37:42  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: I have not seen spbot.
12:38:09  <norbert79> Terrabytes.. God I remember back of the BBS times where 200 Megabytes of Data or even 1 GiB of data was huge
12:38:30  <norbert79> best connection: Modem 56 kbit :)
12:39:11  <Rubidium> still, 2 TiB a month is quite an achievement for such a relatively small game
12:39:16  <norbert79> Indeed
12:39:24  <Eddi|zuHause> at that time, i had an 80MB hard drive!!
12:40:03  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: So you could install Strike COmmander with ease... I think users with 20 or 40 MB of big drive had some issues :)
12:40:17  <Rubidium> and "only" 500-600 MiB of that is causes by the content downloads
12:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i don't remember that game
12:40:54  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: It was released in 1993, it run very well on a 386 it had textured graphics... It was a flight simulator like Arcade game with a story behind
12:41:07  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I still have it in original on CD-ROM
12:41:26  <norbert79> Still fun to play
12:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> @seen Born_Acorn
12:42:09  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: I have not seen Born_Acorn.
12:42:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hm...
12:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> weird...
12:42:22  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: |
12:42:50  <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 16. September 2009] [02:34:07] <DorpsGek>    Born_Acorn was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 0 days, 9 hours, 48 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Born_Acorn> Bbl
12:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that was about one year ago :p
12:43:21  <Rubidium> irc log rotation?
12:43:33  <norbert79> @seen norbert79
12:43:33  <DorpsGek> norbert79: norbert79 was last seen in #openttd 1 minute and 11 seconds ago: <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: |
12:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i never really was into flight simulators...
12:45:43  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Oh, I see
12:47:47  <dihedral> norbert79, i think i remember that game :-)
12:48:01  <dihedral> i do remember it :-)
12:48:29  <norbert79> dihedral: It supposed to happen within a year if we look at the games timeline :D
12:50:15  <dihedral> i would argue about it still being fun though :-P
12:50:30  <norbert79> Just try it again, you will find it even today challenging
12:50:32  <dihedral> have a look at flightgear
12:51:02  <norbert79> Comparing FLightgear with Strike Commander is like comparing an apple to raisins
12:51:11  <dihedral> i find it quite sad today, as its physics engine aint quite what i would expect or want
12:51:26  <norbert79> Yet you can replace it
12:51:37  <norbert79> And FG is not an arcade story based game :)
12:51:56  <dihedral> comparing duke nukem 3d with HL is silly too, yet it demonstrates that one has a more up to date engine
12:52:05  <Belugas> hello
12:52:09  <dihedral> hello Belugas
12:52:27  <Belugas> haaa.. for once,  a VALID highlight :)
12:52:31  <norbert79> dihedral: Aw, come on, two different games, two different style, besides there is EDuke32 and HDR packs too :P :)
12:52:36  <Belugas> hi dihedral :)
12:52:46  <dihedral> :-)
12:53:02  <norbert79> dihedral: I loved Half Life for the story and Duke Nukem for it's mood
12:53:21  <dihedral> norbert79, it's not the style i am getting at - i just would not consider the one to be fun to play today, but i prefer keeping it in memory, as it was fun to play back then
12:53:42  <dihedral> the source engine is amazing with regards to it's physics
12:53:49  <dihedral> fg has some awesome physics too
12:53:51  <norbert79> dihedral: Well, it might be only me, but I still happily turn on my old 486 and play those old games
12:54:07  <dihedral> and i can read your answers without you needing to highlight me all the time
12:54:53  <norbert79> Or take Tyrian2000... Now available for free and still rocks... I have played it through almost 10 times by now
12:55:11  <dihedral> never heard of that
12:55:16  <Wolf01> I've the original CD of Tyrian
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12:55:20  <norbert79> and you know what? OpenTTD has no 3D neither we still love playing it :)
12:55:42  <norbert79> Wolf01: Hah, nice!
12:56:31  <dihedral> norbert79, i do not play openttd :-P
12:56:51  <Belugas> hu??? no 3D YET???  Fuck... that must be such an unrealistic and boring game
12:57:01  <dihedral> :-P
12:57:16  <norbert79> Belugas: Yeah, just imagine... No Z coordinates, no nothing, just plain sprites... How dull
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12:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: openttd is from the "isometric age" of 3D-gaming
12:57:51  <norbert79> But on the other hand Little Big Adventure was partially sprited and 3D in one and was also isometric
12:58:01  <norbert79> yet LBA2 turned into almost full 3D
12:58:17  <norbert79> and both are also available by now for free
12:58:37  <dihedral> i consider the fun of openttd to be programming for and around it
12:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that was like a wave going through the game industry... sim city 2000, civilization 2, openttd ... even Age of Empires
12:58:48  <peter1138> -r-------- 1 root root 140737486262272 Oct  1 13:57 kcore
12:58:50  <peter1138> hrrrmmmm
12:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> er...
12:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean original tt
12:59:18  <norbert79> peter1138: Brwosing through /proc? :)
12:59:30  <peter1138> just added more ram
12:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause> 140TB?
12:59:33  <peter1138> but not that much more ram :P
13:00:12  <norbert79> Some kinda of older flotaing type kinda bug, it shows the negative number... How much ram do you have btw? (I guess it was a Gnome-Session-manager) bug
13:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> 0x7FFFFFE01000
13:00:30  <ccfreak2k> Isometric allowed you to have "3D" without all the computing required for it.
13:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> weird number...
13:00:32  <norbert79> A similar game caused me also some headaches sometimes in DOS times
13:00:41  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, looks masked.
13:00:45  <norbert79> if you had more, than 32 mb of ram
13:00:48  <Belugas> by the way, i still love openttd...
13:00:54  <peter1138> i guess it's a big memory hole
13:00:57  <Belugas> not as much as i love
13:00:58  <norbert79> Belugas: Who doesn't?
13:00:59  <peter1138> it's approximately 2^47 + 2GB
13:01:15  <Belugas> the music i listen to, right now :)
13:01:24  <peter1138> TSN?
13:01:30  <Belugas> :D
13:01:41  <Belugas> but... still the 5 usual
13:01:51  <Belugas> did not had time for the 19 :(
13:02:08  <Belugas> the 1st and the 5th... my overall best
13:04:44  <dihedral> peter1138, -r--------   1 root       root       128T 2010-10-01 15:00 kcore
13:05:51  <Belugas> right... we're already in october
13:06:05  <Belugas> damned... that's all i can read from these lines
13:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> -r-------- 1 root root 939528192  1. Okt 15:07 /proc/kcore
13:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what does this number even mean?
13:08:12  <SmatZ> size of your RAM?
13:08:27  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause:
13:08:42  <SmatZ> hmm rather size of user-space VM
13:09:28  <SmatZ> -r-------- 1 root root 140737486262272  1. říj 15.08 /proc/kcore
13:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Mem:       1034880 <-- that's what 'free' tells me
13:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> which is slightly more
13:09:37  <SmatZ> I am sure I don't have 128TiB of RAM
13:09:53  <peter1138> SmatZ, it used to, however
13:10:01  <peter1138> my server says 896MB, it has 4GB ram
13:10:07  <dihedral> <SmatZ> size of your RAM? <- that would be nice
13:10:08  <peter1138> processes can be larger than 896MB
13:10:31  <Belugas> guess we are not talking abuot a home PC then :)
13:10:58  <dihedral> i am
13:11:01  <peter1138> yup
13:11:04  <Rubidium> mine says 128T as well...
13:11:07  <peter1138> my server has 4GB, my home pc has 6GB
13:11:14  <dihedral> lol
13:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 32bit vs 64bit os?
13:11:51  <Rubidium> too bad /dev/zero is only 5 bytes big. Would be fun to see something like ∞ in ls
13:12:06  <Belugas> :(  that's even more than the total ram i have at home
13:12:06  * Rubidium has a 64 bits OS
13:12:26  <SmatZ> :)
13:12:28  <ccfreak2k> Everyone forgets about PAE.
13:12:36  <Rubidium> in any case 4 GiB isn't enough
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13:12:47  <norbert79> Rubidium: No file in /dev nor in /proc are real files
13:13:00  <Rubidium> kdevelop seriously needed more memory than the 4 GiB of memory I had
13:13:02  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, possible, the server is 32 bit
13:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that wasn't the question
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14:02:04  <underdoggg> hi, decided to come straight here and ask about os x build
14:02:26  <underdoggg> is there any way I can play 1.0.4 with this newest mac?
14:02:46  <underdoggg> I have 1.0.3 running smootly, already
14:03:08  <davis> where did you get that 1.0.3 build that runs on mac?
14:03:31  <underdoggg> I found this thread in the forums
14:03:42  <underdoggg> there was this link which I clicked
14:04:07  <underdoggg> mac os x build 1.0.3, sometin like that
14:04:19  <davis> I suppose you have to wait for some 1.0.4 build then
14:04:22  <Wolf01> then is better you ask there
14:04:23  <Belugas> if you can compile, you can have version 1.0.4
14:04:31  <davis> or that way
14:04:31  <davis> haha
14:04:33  <underdoggg> what does compile mean? :)
14:04:41  *** underdoggg [] has quit []
14:04:44  <Belugas> otherwise, you shold wait until someone build it fo ryou
14:04:49  <Belugas> compile,,,
14:04:51  <Belugas> ok,
14:05:03  <Belugas> you answered the question
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14:05:14  <avdg> donno if the binaries are portable through
14:05:26  <underdoggg> maybe I have to wait
14:05:37  <Belugas> underdoggg, that's your only solution, then
14:05:43  <underdoggg> but I have 2 flat mates and they have pc's
14:05:51  <avdg> I've done some distribution and seems my binaries doesn't work on other macs
14:05:52  <underdoggg> I made them dl 1.0.3 though :D
14:05:56  *** Devroush|2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:06:16  <avdg> and the patch to fix the static links is still not applied for some reasons
14:06:21  <underdoggg> but I was just wondering if there is easy solution
14:06:32  <davis> install windows.
14:06:44  <davis> that's probably as easy as it gets
14:06:45  <Wolf01> lol, I was writing the same
14:06:50  <underdoggg> but, I dont have windows
14:06:58  <avdg> linux then
14:07:11  <underdoggg> can I run linux with mac?
14:07:16  <underdoggg> can I also ask how? :D
14:07:27  <avdg> just install :p
14:07:31  <planetmaker> by installing it
14:07:39  <underdoggg> do I need some other programs?
14:07:50  <Belugas> ans searching on google or whatever your favorite search engine
14:07:53  <planetmaker> you don't even need a computer. ;-)
14:08:04  <davis> haha
14:08:15  <davis> my tv firmware runs on some kind of linux.
14:08:15  <underdoggg> heh, bare me
14:08:30  <underdoggg> asking stupid things, but just trying to safe some surfing
14:08:31  <KenjiE20> I have a spare dead badger around, you can use that for linux is you like :p
14:08:42  <davis> :D
14:09:05  <davis> underdoggg , no harm. but smartest choice is probably to wait
14:09:06  <underdoggg> I just dl linux... well I'm pretty sure there will be problems ahead if I do that
14:09:23  <davis> Ubuntu is pretty simple
14:09:39  <fonsinchen> What exactly are you downloading?
14:09:39  * KenjiE20 shudders
14:10:04  <davis> you can make look ubuntu 100% like windows xp by now
14:10:05  <davis> scary.
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14:10:32  <davis> why would anyone anything looking like windows xp.
14:10:49  <Belugas> well... making the transition easier?
14:11:03  <Belugas> change can be frighting
14:11:19  <davis> Ubuntu is already pretty .. windows like
14:11:24  <davis> at least considering the desktop
14:11:39  <Rubidium> davis: that's definitely a lie
14:11:46  <fonsinchen> I remember working with XP for the first time sometime around 2003, after having worked with 98 and various X window managers ...
14:12:08  <dihedral> davis, excuse me... WHAT?
14:12:09  <fonsinchen> The first thing I thought was: How could they make something THAT awful??!
14:12:20  <davis>
14:12:51  <KenjiE20> that looks more Mac than XP?
14:12:54  <Rubidium> that looks in no way like Windows XP
14:12:55  <dihedral> and that is very windows style?
14:13:07  <davis> imho it is close enough to windows
14:13:08  <davis> to not get lost
14:13:09  <dihedral> c'mon davis you can do better than that
14:13:10  <davis> if changing.
14:13:30  <davis> what i'm trying to say , it's not all different haha
14:13:33  <davis> now quit bashing me <3
14:13:45  <dihedral> then quit saying stupid stuff :-P
14:13:51  <davis> shht
14:13:52  <underdoggg> I'l look ubuntu
14:13:57  <underdoggg> ive heard that word before
14:14:07  <underdoggg> thanks
14:14:17  <davis> :D
14:14:26  *** underdoggg [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
14:14:33  <dihedral> davis, and please realize that you are merely referring to gnome
14:14:51  <dihedral> and that for sure aint anywhere near windows XP - though of course if you mangle with it, you can make it look similar
14:14:58  <dihedral> but then you can do the same with KDE too
14:15:04  <davis>
14:15:10  <dihedral> if you mangle a bit more, you can make it look OS X'ish
14:15:18  <davis> indeed gnome it is.
14:15:44  <dihedral> and now show me how you can customize windows xp to look any way you like
14:16:08  <KenjiE20> the second recommended link on that vid is good
14:16:17  <KenjiE20> the ubunutu like win7 thing
14:16:21  <KenjiE20> that's really close
14:16:42  <KenjiE20> (I just skipped to about 7mins in)
14:16:44  <dihedral> but that is because windows is changing behaviour and not gnome :-D
14:17:43  <Rubidium> the video looks infinitely times more like windows that the screenshot you linked
14:17:58  <KenjiE20> ubunutu is good for one thing; boob mashing logo excuses :p
14:17:59  <Rubidium> although there's still pretty much that tells "this is not Windows"
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14:19:07  <dihedral> davis, you use windows at home?
14:20:04  <davis> got both , windows and well /gnome/
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14:20:17  <davis> dual boot setup
14:20:41  <davis> mostly windows 7 ultimate though , it simply supports more games.
14:22:11  <davis> my mp3 player runs on rockbox :D
14:22:47  <ccfreak2k> Surely you mean the other way around.
14:22:51  * KenjiE20 thinks we're getting badly off topic here
14:23:10  * davis thinks KenjiE20 is sexy.
14:23:27  <KenjiE20> I'm now worried and ignoring IRC
14:23:32  <davis> hahaha
14:24:16  <davis> irc is amazing , like multiplayer notepad. a bunch of fun
14:25:03  <planetmaker> [16:21]	<davis>	mostly windows 7 ultimate though , it simply supports more games. <-- you play other games? Heretic!
14:25:17  <davis> :o
14:25:28  <davis> just because my PC isn't heavily outdated ;)
14:26:10  <planetmaker> :-)
14:26:11  <dihedral> ^^
14:26:37  <dihedral> thankfully he's none of those guys requesting multi core/cpu support
14:26:38  <planetmaker> try to play a decent openttd game with an out-dated PC...
14:26:48  <dihedral> define 'decent' :-D
14:26:59  <planetmaker> 1k+ vehicles ;-)
14:27:01  <dihedral> 64*64? :-P
14:27:04  <davis> ;)
14:27:20  <ccfreak2k> Maybe he means, for example, not buying up the land next to every industry.
14:28:32  <davis> then again the definition of outdated is somewhat vague aswell.
14:28:42  <planetmaker> much so
14:28:54  <Rubidium> Eddi's new PC isn't outdated yet
14:29:06  <davis> haha , probably newer than mine then
14:29:08  <Rubidium> (has it actually been delivered yet?)
14:29:11  <davis> :D
14:29:21  <Rubidium> mine are already ancient
14:29:22  <planetmaker> hehe
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14:29:37  * planetmaker probably will only buy laptops in the near future
14:29:38  <davis> currently running on 2.83ghz quadcore , 2 graphic cards and 8gb ram
14:29:41  <planetmaker> at least privately
14:30:26  <davis> I loved my laptop , till the usb controll broke. then it was near useless
14:32:36  <planetmaker> hm... I don't need that  very often either :-)
14:32:38  <planetmaker> only wifi is important ;-)
14:34:29  <dihedral> davis: define quad core :-P
14:34:46  <dihedral> i.e. some precision? :-D
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14:47:30  <davis> sec dihedral
14:48:18  <davis> Intel Cre 2 Quad CPU Q @ 2.83GHz (4 CPus), ~ 2,8Ghz
14:48:22  <davis> Core*
14:48:50  <davis> possible to overclock it to ~ 3.2 , but that's not in need yet.
14:49:14  <peter1138> i bumped my 2.4 to 3, heh
14:49:38  <davis> nice
14:50:01  <davis> not sure about the limits of my cpu
14:50:09  <davis> but it runs fine as it is , no need to play around yet
14:53:53  <__ln__> peter1138: were you able to do that without losing the speedstep-or-something functionality?
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15:15:21  <peter1138> __ln__, yes
15:15:30  <peter1138> __ln__, it only ever allowed 1.6 or 2.4 GHz before
15:15:38  <peter1138> __ln__, now it only allows 2.0 or 3.0 GHz
15:15:48  <peter1138> __ln__, no where near as flexible as AMDs version
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15:18:17  <dihedral> i'd still not go for an amd just for that :-P
15:18:27  <dihedral> unless i wanted some embeded thing like a geode
15:18:50  <dihedral> s/a geode/the geode/
15:20:48  <peter1138> atom...
15:20:56  <peter1138> damn it
15:21:13  <peter1138> the type of namespace name 'membership' does not exist in the namespace ''
15:21:16  <peter1138> LIES
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15:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so... new computer...
15:44:53  <__ln__> peter1138: when i tried overclocking, i lost speedstep possibility.. but could have been a limitation of the bios or specific bios version
15:45:08  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: congrats. specs?
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15:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 6x2.8GHz
15:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> 4GB
15:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> 2TB
15:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> some assembly requred
15:48:46  <waldtroll> Eddi|zuHause: OS?
15:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> none yet
15:49:37  <waldtroll> what one would you prefer? 32bit or 64bit?
15:59:12  <peter1138> Is there any point to staying with 32bit?
16:02:38  <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder if my new drive and controller are... hotplug...
16:03:29  <waldtroll> peter1138: i believe not, but many ppl i know don't want to switch for .... stupid reasons
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16:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i only have a 32bit windows, if i can find the disk...
16:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and i downloaded 64bit opensuse
16:07:00  <peter1138> XP/
16:07:02  <peter1138> ?
16:07:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, XP
16:07:13  <peter1138> Urgh
16:07:13  *** dfox [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07:25  <peter1138> Well, it's only 8 or 9 years old :D
16:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well... i don't really care
16:08:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and definitely not enough to actually pay for a newer one
16:14:35  <waldtroll> but you know that 32bit windows only can address 3,3 Gig of RAM? it reserves the last 700MB for virtual I/O mapped memory
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16:26:57  <peter1138> waldtroll, so? :)
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16:28:49  <waldtroll> yarp, at least Tanenbaum - Modern Operating Systems says so
16:32:11  <Rubidium> actually the memory limitation is more an arbitrary limitation put into the OS by Microsoft
16:39:25  <waldtroll> Rubidium: nope, a 32bit processor cannot address more than 4GB
16:39:52  <Rubidium> waldtroll: then explain to me why Windows 2000 server data center x86 can address 32 GiB
16:40:04  <waldtroll>
16:40:20  <Rubidium>
16:41:07  <Rubidium> waldtroll: did you read the page you linked?
16:41:11  <waldtroll> could be virtual memory
16:41:13  <waldtroll> shure
16:41:33  <peter1138> Never heard of PAE?
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16:41:50  <Rubidium> The external address and data buses are often wider than 32 bits but both of these are stored and manipulated internally in the processor as 32-bit quantities. For example, the Pentium Pro processor is a 32-bit machine, but the external address bus is 36 bits wide, and the external data bus is 64 bits wide.
16:42:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r20860 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some unused functions and variables
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16:42:35  <Rubidium> a processor with 32-bit memory addresses can directly access 4 GB of byte-addressable memory <- that's probably what you're thinking about, but... the direct in there is the important bit
16:43:06  <peter1138> I wonder if Firefox will be usable now that I have 6GB...
16:43:18  * Lakie thinks Oskar would be quite upset at this code.
16:43:42  <Lakie> It imetates the resizability of OpenTTD's object gui
16:43:48  <waldtroll> but thats not standard hardware
16:44:11  <waldtroll> oh, okay, u're right
16:44:12  <waldtroll> sry
16:44:14  <peter1138> PAE is pretty standard on x86...
16:44:15  <Rubidium> waldtroll: true-ish, any CPU supporting PAE
16:44:38  <Rubidium> that does not include all CPUs, like those damn old 486s
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16:44:56  <Aali> the 3GB limit still holds for any single one application though, unless its programmed to handle more
16:45:15  <SmatZ> even old IA16 CPUs could address more than 64KiB of memory
16:45:56  <waldtroll> i see, im a bit out of date :-D
16:46:05  <Rubidium> true, though I seem to remember that those memory hogging web browsers are starting a process per tab. I'd reckon 3GiB of memory would be enough to handle a tab for the forseeable future
16:46:29  <waldtroll> but that doesn't change the fact that a normal Win XP 32Bit can' address more than 3,3Gig
16:47:08  <Rubidium> true, but as I said that's an arbitrary limitation put in by Microsoft
16:47:21  <waldtroll> i see, you were right
16:47:42  <SmatZ> [18:46:52] <waldtroll> but that doesn't change the fact that a normal Win XP 32Bit can' address more than 3,3Gig <== talking about userspace programs
16:47:48  <waldtroll> i found a table in wikipedia :-D i can't believe win 7 starter can only adress 2 Gig, thats crazy
16:48:18  <Rubidium> XP starter only 512 MiB, but then... with 2 or 3 applications running at a time there's not much to worry about
16:48:26  <waldtroll> nop, my pld win XP professional can only handle 3,3 Gig overall
16:48:34  <glx> win7 starter is very limited
16:48:39  <waldtroll> s/pld/old
16:48:45  <SmatZ> ^^^ ignore me :)
16:49:32  <Rubidium> for fun... my Windows XP has a 128 GiB limit
16:49:44  <glx> 64bit ?
16:49:48  <Rubidium> although... I'm running Windows (NT) 5.2
16:50:06  <Rubidium> you're arguably running Windows (NT) 5.1
16:50:13  <waldtroll> i do not run windows XP anymore, so i cant look for it
16:50:13  <glx> 5.2 is 64 ;)
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16:50:37  <waldtroll> and the wikipedia-table says win XP 64bit can haandle 128 Gig
16:51:06  <glx> anyway limits are always software limits
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16:51:12  <waldtroll> SmatZ: my windows only showed 3,3Gig RAM in the systems interface ...
16:51:34  <SmatZ> yeah, ignore me :)
16:51:44  <waldtroll> but as i said, i can't test it because i don't run it anymore
16:52:03  <davis> waldtroll 32bit version of windows?
16:52:06  * Rubidium coughs virtualbox
16:52:07  <waldtroll> i didn't ignore you, my windows ignored the rest of the RAM :-p
16:52:14  <waldtroll> davis: jep
16:52:22  <davis> yeah 32 bit only supports up to 3,3 gig afaik
16:52:42  <waldtroll> davis: yeah, thats what i said, before i got wrong with the PAE
16:52:56  <davis> ah
16:54:49  <waldtroll> and i don't know, why SmatZ feels ignored, because my 32bit Windows XP Professional would only handle 3,3 Gig, not only in single userspace programms but overall
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16:57:19  <SmatZ> waldtroll: what I said was probably wrong :)
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16:57:53  <michi_cc> It's actually 4GB minus whatever the mainboard reserves for PCI and onboard IO.
16:58:40  <michi_cc> So the maximum memory supported by XP depends on the mainboard/chipset.
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16:59:17  <Rubidium> though aren't you able to work around that by enabling PAE?
16:59:18  <waldtroll> SmatZ: ah, i got you totally wrong, i thought you feel ignored, not that you want to be ignored ... sry
16:59:45  <SmatZ> sorry for mistaking you, waldtroll :)
17:00:40  <dihedral> s/mistaking/confusing/
17:00:53  * SmatZ mistakes dihedral in his confusion
17:01:39  <michi_cc> PAE is only used by the server versions of windows. Reason I read somewhere in a MS presentation was that too many 32-bit drivers were crashing when presented with memory addresses larger than 32-bit.
17:02:07  <michi_cc> So they decided to not use PAE for consumer 32-bit windows.
17:02:36  <Rubidium> though MS claims you can use /PAE in the boot settings somehow
17:05:17  <waldtroll> a short question before i have to leave: is there a ressource (site or document) where to learn the NFO?
17:05:53  <theholyduck> Rubidium, sure, but it still limits it to 4gb
17:05:56  <theholyduck> on most versions of windows
17:05:59  <theholyduck> even WITH pae enabled
17:05:59  <davis> is there any patch that allows to build stations underneath bridges / bridges over stations?
17:07:47  <SmatZ> davis: it's not allowed because it caused glitches
17:08:03  <Rubidium> maybe in peter's magic storage of ancient patches
17:08:50  <SmatZ> waldtroll: :)
17:09:36  <Alberth> waldtroll:  seem to be resources
17:09:59  <waldtroll> SmatZ: thanks ... i think i have to practice on my google-fu skills, i didn't find that site
17:10:21  <SmatZ> you are welcome :)
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17:10:59  <peter1138> heh, there is one for that, actually
17:12:03  <waldtroll> okay, thanks
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17:12:42  <SmatZ> hello frosch123
17:12:43  <waldtroll> now i've got to go, i'll be back in a few days when my trials areN#t working ;-)
17:12:50  <SmatZ> bye waldtroll
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17:15:05  <frosch123> evening albert and smatz :)
17:15:12  <frosch123> hello to the rest :)
17:18:02  <Rubidium> 'lo
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17:28:12  <Pikel> I don't understand how wood is collected ... is a station built into a forest?
17:30:29  <SmatZ> Pikel: next to a forest "industry"
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17:31:12  <SmatZ> you have to build your station there :p
17:31:35  <SmatZ> sorry for the yoda-talk :p
17:31:42  <Pikel> what does a 'forest industry' look like then ... I don't see anything like that on the map....
17:31:45  <Pikel> SmatZ: tis ok lol
17:32:25  <SmatZ>
17:33:09  <SmatZ> you should see it in the minimap, too
17:33:15  <Pikel> ok
17:33:15  <SmatZ> (F4 open minimap)
17:33:53  <SmatZ> *opens
17:34:26  <SmatZ> hmm, I'm very sober and my English is incredibly bad
17:35:50  <Pikel> it's all good, I got the gist of it ... looking for a forest now
17:37:16  <SmatZ> :)
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17:44:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20861 /trunk/src/lang/arabic_egypt.txt:
17:44:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:44:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 44 changes by kasakg
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18:24:16  <__ln__> what, is there support for RTL nowadays?
18:24:35  <Yexo> yes, for quite a long time already
18:25:08  <__ln__> i see.
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18:37:27  <Belugas> hey... it's normal, __ln__ only uses ottd in english...
18:37:29  * Belugas runs
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18:45:08  <__ln__> ylno hsilgne
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18:49:09  <dihedral> english please
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18:54:39  <GecK> hi
18:55:27  <__ln__> dihedral: it was
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18:57:53  <dihedral> english is not rtl
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18:58:33  <Prof_Frink> Unless you're in Nodnol.
18:58:53  <Alberth> or in #openttd, apparently
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19:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> <glx> anyway limits are always software limits <-- 640kB ought to be enough for anybody...
19:47:06  <Alberth> not to mention a segment size of 64KB
19:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i thought that was a program limitation with near and far pointers
19:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that being, a program without far pointers can only address one block of 64kB
19:49:30  <Alberth> no idea, I never messed around with segments
19:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> 64kB is what you can address with a 16 bit pointer
19:50:06  <Alberth> but I think dumping the problem onto the programmer with the near and far pointer stuff is still one of the better tricks
19:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> far pointers were one attempt to increase that to 32 bit without a 32bit architecture
19:51:14  <Alberth> whatever, but if you declare  char x[70000] I expect to get 70000 characters
19:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... copying small files is extremely slow...
19:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's the job of the compiler, i presume
19:52:29  <Alberth> I would hope so, but it didn't back in those days.
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19:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's still a problem if you declare x[5000000000] on a 32-bit system nowadays
19:52:55  <Alberth> luckily, I had a RISC-OS machine with a nice linear flat 32bit address space :p
19:53:57  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: if the compiler says "too large", ok. But it accepted the declaration without problems!
19:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i really had no experience back then
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20:18:52  <frosch123> yay for mining uranium with a bucket-wheel excavator :p
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20:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember uranium being part of minecraft :p
20:30:16  <__ln__> i just figured out there's some other black stuff that looks like coal but is not, and isn't suitable for a torch
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20:36:03  <peter1138> i don't remember any other black stuff
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20:38:45  <__ln__> flint, says the internet
20:39:03  <peter1138> oh
20:39:11  <peter1138> yeah
20:39:16  <peter1138> flint & steel! :D
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21:18:14  <Belugas> good weekend all
21:18:25  <Rubidium> happy weekend oh great white one
21:23:18  * Lakie thinks he's mimiced openttd's object window close enough. (well, the preview scaling / text expanding), though its a little odd.
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21:24:00  <Rubidium> Lakie: now make it adjust for different fontsizes as well :)
21:24:19  <Lakie> Heh, I think TTD haas hard coded font sizes. :)
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21:24:33  <Lakie> Just be changing the imul anyway
21:27:30  <Lakie> 'cept I keep to a minimum of 3 too keep the old size for smaller objects...
21:36:52  <Lakie> Have you managed to find any time for those bugs in OpenTTD, Rubidium?
21:38:08  <Rubidium> does the first of the next month sound okay?
21:39:08  <Lakie> That was today?
21:39:22  <Lakie> Or do you meant Nov?
21:39:30  <Rubidium> yeah
21:40:14  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... copying small files is _extremely_ slow
21:40:20  <Lakie> Yup
21:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i should have just made an image...
21:40:28  <Lakie> Because its usually no sequental
21:40:34  <Lakie> not*
21:41:04  <Lakie> Zipping (store) then transfering is usually faster... :/
21:41:57  <Eddi|zuHause> how is zipping faster than copying [different disks, no network]?
21:42:42  <Lakie> Well, I was thinking more network, but I'm unsure of a faster solution for drives
21:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the point was to get the disk empty, so i can reuse it in the other computer as system disk
21:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so i can partition the 400MB disk, and leave the 2TB disk as one partition...
21:43:48  <Rubidium> yes, this copying of a 5 byte "file" is taking already 2:30... so it's definitely slow. There isn't even disk access...
21:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: ha ha.
21:44:07  <Lakie> Windows getting into nots?
21:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: he means /dev/zero
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21:44:40  <Lakie> Ah, *nix
21:44:47  <Rubidium> `cp /dev/zero /dev/null` to be precise
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21:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> what i don't understand is, why dolphin takes 90% CPU
21:47:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought kio_file is doing the actual copying
21:47:49  <Rubidium> it's trying to tell you about some highway?
21:48:35  <Rubidium> oh, sorry... a bypass
21:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> err... what?
21:49:29  <Rubidium> don't panic!
21:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> so... the bad thing is... as long as this thing is copying, i can't even turn off the computer to unplug the DVD drive to put it in the other computer...
21:54:39  <frosch123> hmm, what do the sizes of the stuff in /dev/ mean?
21:55:39  <frosch123> most of them seem to be arbitrary, like tty1 .. ttyxx using 1 to xx
21:55:48  <peter1138> major/minor device node numbers
21:56:08  <peter1138> it's not size :)
21:56:23  <frosch123> true, there are two numbers
21:56:33  <frosch123> never noticed them
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21:59:44  <GT> SmatZ, are you around?
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22:01:37  <GhostlyDeath> Is there a way to reset the "Advanced Settings" to default?
22:01:45  <SmatZ> GT: hello
22:01:47  <frosch123> delete openttd.cfg
22:01:59  <frosch123> resp. the lines of the settings you want to reset
22:03:48  <GT> SmatZ: I was talking to Rubidium last week about this idea: the 32bpp blitters are converting the 8bpp mask to 32bpp palette colours every pixels, so I wanted to move the LookupColourInPalette from blitter to gfx, what do you think about that idea for optimizing the 32bpp blitter?
22:04:29  <GT> s/pixels/pixel/
22:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> how far away should a subwoofer be from a hard drive? :p
22:06:37  *** DDR [~DDR@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:07:00  <GhostlyDeath> Eddi|zuHause: If you use an SSD, 1 inch, if you don't 1 mile
22:07:52  <SmatZ> 								uint r = remap[m];
22:07:53  <SmatZ> 								if (r != 0) *dst = this->LookupColourInPalette(r);
22:08:29  <GT> Yeah, that line, nonsense to do that every pixel I think
22:08:31  <SmatZ> GT: do you mean something like create "remapped remap", which would be array of uint32s ?
22:09:24  <SmatZ> I am not sure if it would bring any performance improvements
22:09:44  <GhostlyDeath> I hope LookupColourInPalette is inlined if you draw in one giant loop
22:09:57  <SmatZ> all is inlined
22:10:04  <SmatZ> at least, should be :)
22:10:09  <SmatZ> and it was when I checked it
22:11:15  <GT> I made a diff where I create a 32bpp remap table in the spritecache when loading the recolor sprites, add a pointer to it at the end of the table, and in gfx just set the remap pointer, so the blitter does not need to do the indirection every remapped pixel anymore
22:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the manual says distance of any object to the subwoofer should be 15,24cm
22:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> to ensure proper air flow
22:12:55  <Rubidium> do I smell a 6*4 in there?
22:13:20  <SmatZ> GT: how often is actually remapping made?
22:13:23  <GhostlyDeath> There any way to play the title screen map?
22:13:28  <SmatZ> if (r != 0) *dst = this->LookupColourInPalette(r);
22:13:33  <SmatZ> how do you solve this?
22:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the english part says 6 inches
22:13:46  <SmatZ> you still have to check for some flags, when the pixel isn't overwritten
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22:14:05  <GT> Pretty often, like every vehicle and station
22:14:13  <GT> -							uint r = remap[m];        53 -							if (r != 0) *dst = ComposeColourPA(this->LookupColourInPalette(r), src_px->a, *dst);        54 +							Colour r = remap[m];        55 +							if (r.a != 0) {        56 +								*dst = ComposeColourPA(, src_px->a, *dst);        57 +							}
22:14:25  <SmatZ> ok :)
22:14:37  <GhostlyDeath> I've never examined the code
22:15:18  <GT> Complete diff for the 32bpp-ez patch (but not to different from trunk):
22:16:23  <GT> But because it is all inlined, I got some trouble profiling it, so I dont know the real performance gain
22:16:36  <SmatZ>  +	Blitter_32bppOptimized *blitter = (Blitter_32bppOptimized *)BlitterFactoryBase::GetCurrentBlitter();
22:16:45  <SmatZ> umm, what does that do when you use other blitter?
22:16:57  <Rubidium> kabooom! :)
22:17:12  <SmatZ> :)
22:17:31  <GT> check for the screendepth =32 and skip
22:17:51  <GT> and certainly don't dynamic bind
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22:18:36  <GhostlyDeath> Why do buses drive past the bus station down a long road only to turn around?
22:18:38  <GT> it's just a proof of concept, not a failsafe trunk patch
22:18:43  <SmatZ> actually, i might be static
22:18:46  <GhostlyDeath> and head to another station?
22:18:52  <SmatZ> as well as LookupColourInPalette()
22:19:25  <SmatZ> but yes, your idea makes sense
22:20:15  * SmatZ wonders about possible problems with animation
22:20:26  <SmatZ> but it seems recoloured pixels are never animated anyway
22:20:33  <SmatZ> (at least with 32bpp-anim)
22:20:37  <Rubidium> animation and 32bpp graphics are a huge problem in any case
22:20:58  <GT> Absolutely right
22:21:00  <Rubidium> or at least palette animation
22:21:05  <SmatZ> yeah :)
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22:21:57  <GT> I even think that with the current state of affairs, you can drop the 32bpp-animated blitter, only makes sense when you use only 8bpp sprites
22:23:39  <Rubidium> true, dropping the 32bpp blitters has become easier as we don't support Mac OS X
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22:23:58  <SmatZ> :)
22:24:55  *** Silasle [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:25:07  <SmatZ> +		byte *dest = (byte *)AllocSprite(max(RECOLOUR_SPRITE_SIZE, num) + sizeof(byte *));
22:25:20  <SmatZ> GT: why not simply max(RECOLOUR_SPRITE_SIZE, num)*5 ?
22:26:27  <SmatZ> otoh, maybe blitter could do that work
22:26:34  <SmatZ> if it knew it's a recolour sprite
22:26:39  <SmatZ> in Blitter::Encode
22:27:40  <SmatZ> maybe it could use Blitter::EncodeRecolour instead
22:28:08  <GT> 64bit architectures?
22:28:29  <GT> pointers might be longer than 4 bytes
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22:29:12  <SmatZ> GT: why store a pointer instead of storing the 32bit colours in the encoded sprite?
22:29:32  <SmatZ> so you could get rid of  +} _rgb_palettes[MAX_PALETTE_TABLES] = {{0,{{0}}}};
22:29:47  <SmatZ> +static const int MAX_PALETTE_TABLES = 50;
22:29:52  <SmatZ> with an artificial limit
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22:31:00  <GT> storing the table iso a pointer would be better, but my goal was to get rid of the lookupcolour, I'm just taking one step at a time
22:31:51  <GT> Imo, the palettes should not even be in the blitter, but in gfx, but that is another matter
22:32:36  <Rubidium> why? "Applying" the palette is something that happens at the blitting stage
22:33:23  <GT> no, 32bpp blitters dont know the concept palette, or at least shouldnt
22:33:53  <GT> the blitter should apply a recolour with a 32bpp colour
22:34:22  <Rubidium> but the "gfx" isn't aware of 32 vs 8 bits colours
22:34:42  <GT> imo it should
22:35:01  <Rubidium> that'll get messy pretty quickly
22:35:06  <GT> why
22:35:36  <GhostlyDeath> Uh oh
22:35:45  <GhostlyDeath> I wasn't paying attention and a computer player built roads everywhere
22:35:51  <GhostlyDeath> Can I destroy his stuff?
22:36:01  <GT> getting the 8bpp recolour/palette info to the blitter is even bringing that info to a more lower layer
22:36:09  <GhostlyDeath> Maybe I'll get two vehicles on his road
22:36:12  <Rubidium> GT: GfxFillRect, GfxDrawLine, DrawBox and the likes? They all use palette colours
22:36:14  <GhostlyDeath> and have them both stop both ways
22:36:15  <Ammler> GhostlyDeath: stop_ai
22:36:45  <GT> Yes, and in my patch they convert that to 32bpp before hitting the blitter
22:36:50  <Rubidium> if that needs to support 32bpp colours as well, you'd need to the 8 vs 32bpp split even further down into the code
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22:37:29  <GT> I mean, why would a 32bpp blitter need to know about a palette remap?
22:37:55  <GT> or an 8bpp blitter about 32bpp recolour
22:38:04  <Rubidium> for the (palette) animation
22:38:12  <Rubidium> i.e. backward compatability
22:38:58  <GT> even in that case, map the 8bpp colours to 32bpp ones before hitting the 32bpp animated blitter
22:39:03  <Rubidium> actually a bit of palette conversion crap is already handled at load time
22:39:54  <Rubidium> so put a small wrapper around the 32bpp blitters that convert the palette stuff to 32bpp native colours
22:40:28  <GT> yes, and let's call it gfx.cpp
22:40:30  <Rubidium> the 8bpp codepath shouldn't be bothered with the fact that 32bpp doesn't quite like palette conversions
22:40:39  <GT> agreed
22:40:46  <GT> and vv
22:42:02  <GT> so somewhere in the layered stack of graphical functions the conversion needs to be made, imo that should not be at pixel level but at sprite level i.e. gfx
22:43:22  <Rubidium> so more at load time?
22:43:42  <GT> yes,
22:44:29  <Rubidium> you might be able to fill the r, g and b stuff in spriteloaded/grf.cpp and use that if a 32bpp blitter is loaded
22:45:35  <Rubidium> you'd still have "palettes" though they'd be rgb(a?)
22:45:47  <Rubidium> well, rgb(a) as well
22:46:02  <GT> What I did is load it in spritecache when a recolor sprite is read, when the screendepth is 32bpp, but I may ahv missed a case
22:46:08  <Rubidium> and you could interpret "palette" as "colour lookup"
22:48:21  * SmatZ back from phone
22:48:37  <GT> so indeed, rgba palettes, but only filled once, when the recolor sprites are loaded, which also may be the case when loading newgrf, which is a lot better than a palette lookup every remap pixel in the blitter, now it's a question of setting the pointer to the correct 32bpp palette before drawing the sprite
22:49:10  <GT> Or, as SmatZ suggested, even exted the spritecache with the 32bpp values
22:49:29  <SmatZ> that wouldn't break the separation of gfx and blitters
22:49:52  <GT> which may even be extended with hsl values for better 32bpp cc drawing
22:49:56  <Rubidium> oh, the blitter "encodes" the 8bpp sprites to 32bpp sprites
22:50:12  <SmatZ> yeah, for speed :)
22:50:18  <Rubidium> but not for recolour sprites
22:50:26  <SmatZ> yeah, for compatibility :)
22:51:04  <Rubidium> but for the 32bpp "encoding" the recolour sprite with 32bpp colours would be better
22:51:14  <SmatZ> yeah
22:51:21  <SmatZ> the cleanest solution imo
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22:57:58  <GT> What happens now is that the sprites get loaded and converted to 32bpp colours, but the masks are still in 8bpp, and the blitter has to do a table lookup to convert from 8bpp to 32bpp using the palette as defined in the /tables, but it does a  lookup for every pixel, where a onetime conversion would suffice
22:58:27  <SmatZ> from what I tested, ~15% of pixels drawn are looked up
22:58:56  <GT> every screen / sprite redraw
22:59:10  <Rubidium> if animation is disabled, right?
22:59:20  <SmatZ> Rubidium: yup, with 32bpp-optimized
22:59:25  <Rubidium> if palette animation is enabled those lookups are kinda needed
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23:00:23  <GT> yes, but that wouldnt work very well when you would actually use 32bpp sprites iso of just drawing 8bpp sprites with an 32bpp blitter
23:01:09  <GT> like using a palette of 8**3
23:01:50  <Rubidium> how much can the optimised blitter be simplified if you trash all support for palette animation in there?
23:01:50  <GT> chance of finding the right pixel is not to big
23:02:18  <Rubidium> and how much code would you need to add to the 32bpp-anim blitter?
23:02:18  <GT> nothing, optimised doesnt do animation
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23:02:45  <Rubidium> GT: aren't those palette lookups due to the palette animation?
23:02:53  <Rubidium> hmm... oh... recolour stuff
23:03:08  <Rubidium> that complicates it
23:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> recolour like company colour?
23:04:09  <Rubidium> so basically either throw a lot of memory at it and cache recoloured sprites or waste some CPU to replace the pixels at run time
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23:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking cached sprites should be better
23:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> spontaneously
23:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> people tend to have more RAM spare than CPU
23:04:59  <GhostlyDeath> There are 4 industries on the curernt game I am playing
23:05:05  <GhostlyDeath> None give what another wants
23:05:21  <GhostlyDeath> Swamill missing forest, oil refinery missing oil pumping
23:05:32  <GhostlyDeath> Factory missing grains and livestock
23:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> GhostlyDeath: probably should play a slightly bigger map
23:05:45  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: depends on what kind of hardware you've got. If you've got a relatively small cache and really slow memory the CPU stuff might be faster
23:06:33  <Rubidium> the primary slowdown reason for CPUs is cache misses
23:06:34  *** welshdragon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i really could use another half meter of chinch cables...
23:07:35  <GhostlyDeath> Eddi|zuHause: luckily all the incompatible industries are right next to each other!
23:08:05  <GhostlyDeath> at most 4 tiles away in one direction
23:08:11  <Rubidium> and as there are, in theory, a "near" infinite number of recolour maps you need some clever way to cache them
23:08:30  <Rubidium> i.e. the spritecache might not be sufficient anymore
23:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: how many recolour sprites can be applied to one sprite?
23:09:31  <Rubidium> 256 with ease
23:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... evil...
23:09:42  <Rubidium> and that's "just" 2cc
23:09:55  <Lakie> Hehe
23:09:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i mean after another
23:10:09  <Rubidium> don't know
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23:10:11  <Lakie> Isn't it one?
23:10:18  <Rubidium> I reckon it's pretty darn low
23:10:21  <GT> any way, I've got to go, cu soon
23:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: as in, can an already recoloured sprite be recoloured again
23:10:27  <Lakie> (I guess maybe two depending on how you convert from palettes)
23:10:47  <Rubidium> Lakie: that happens at sprite load, so nothing is really aware of that
23:11:06  <Lakie> Ah, then I imagine its one like TTDPatch.
23:11:08  <Rubidium> though 1 sounds like a good initial guess
23:11:17  <Lakie> (And TTD)
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23:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the question is, is that really 1. or are there cases where it can be 2?
23:11:33  <Rubidium> but I agree with GT that it's sufficiently late to do something else
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23:11:41  <GhostlyDeath> Would I be able to get the game to add oil sometime in the future?
23:11:46  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: as I said, I don't know
23:11:50  <GhostlyDeath> It's just gonna me mail and people for years
23:11:54  <GhostlyDeath> be*
23:11:57  <Rubidium> and can't be bothered to figure it out
23:12:38  <Lakie> If memory serves, bites 31-16 store the recolour map?
23:12:40  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's really 1, it could be enough to use some tricky hashing to use (sprite number, recolour sprite number) as cache index...
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23:13:06  <Eddi|zuHause> where for "normal" sprites, the recolour sprite number could be 0
23:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can unify it
23:14:32  <Rubidium> but the spritecache has a stub with (size/type) data for each sprite and a pointer into the actual spritecache
23:14:36  <Rubidium> so hashing won't quite work
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23:18:41  <Rubidium> you'd pretty much need to rewrite the spritecache from scratch to take this into account
23:19:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know anything about the internals of the sprite cache, was just an idea...
23:19:10  <Rubidium> although you might consider getting rid of the whole idea of spritecache and just never free loaded sprites until reloading the game
23:19:19  *** pugi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:19:46  <Rubidium> low memory devices won't like it though
23:19:46  *** GT [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:20:35  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there are two drawing modes:
23:20:50  <frosch123> either draw a sprite while recolouring it with a single recolouring
23:20:56  <frosch123> or recolour the current screencontents
23:21:16  <frosch123> the latter is used for shadows, newspaper, glass, etc
23:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how the latter can be cached at all...
23:22:02  <frosch123> though the latter is not really supported by the 32bpp blitters
23:22:30  <frosch123> i.e. they catch the default coloursprites for those 3 cases and then do something on their own
23:22:47  <frosch123> i.e. newstations-like green glass won't work with 32bpp
23:28:16  <GhostlyDeath> Is it possible to create a game that I can just watch the AI play on?
23:28:44  <GhostlyDeath> that is, starting from scratch a bunch of AIs duke it out to the death
23:28:49  <Chrill> GhostlyDeath: Not sure. However, just start a normal game with AIs, and dont build anything
23:29:03  <Chrill> to avoid financial concerns, you can cheat yourself some money
23:29:15  <frosch123> there are about a dozen threads with ai-only battles in the noai subforum
23:29:29  <Chrill> see, when Chrill replies, he's always way off
23:29:40  <Chrill> :)
23:29:54  <GhostlyDeath> Shouldn't I just repay my loan back?
23:30:12  <Chrill> GhostlyDeath: there are still some expenses afaik
23:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> my attempts at ai only games resulted in me starting to build something anyway, and the game getting really slow after a while...
23:31:15  <GhostlyDeath> How would I get more money then?
23:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> man... i should have done this copying yesterday, when i thought of it...
23:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, if i push the output of dd through gzip, can i sensibly mount that image afterwards?
23:34:06  <GhostlyDeath> Is 3 billion dollars enough?
23:34:31  <GhostlyDeath> heh, cheat menu makes everything easier
23:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> GhostlyDeath: if you don'T have any loan, you lose like 100$ per year
23:34:53  <Chrill> GhostlyDeath: everything is easier at default
23:34:58  <Chrill> cheats are.. well
23:35:02  <Chrill> I use build in pause mode
23:35:02  <frosch123> just start a multiplayergame and join only as spectator
23:35:08  <GhostlyDeath> I'm losing money in Other
23:35:12  <GhostlyDeath> 50 bucks here and there
23:35:46  <GhostlyDeath> AI bought a truck thing
23:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause> they do that, yes.
23:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what the game is about, usually
23:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause> many AIs focus on road, since that's the easiest
23:36:35  <GhostlyDeath> Using the AdmiralAI
23:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> should just avoid having two AIs of the same personality
23:37:17  <frosch123> night
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23:37:24  <Eddi|zuHause> they tend to get in each others way
23:38:02  <GhostlyDeath> all the more fun
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23:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... did we ask whether the "night" is actually scripted?
23:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> GhostlyDeath: no, the not-fun-way of getting in the way
23:39:27  <GhostlyDeath> Heh, two AIs are using the same thing
23:39:31  <GhostlyDeath> Wood to a sawmill
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23:43:40  <GhostlyDeath> I downloaded some extra AIs and they are all random
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23:59:07  <Wolf01> 'night
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