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00:13:37 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.227.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 00:17:05 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:18:43 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:23:59 *** fanioz [~fanioz@223.255.225.8] has joined #openttd 01:13:56 <GecK> good night 01:13:58 *** GecK [Geck@pro75-3-82-229-184-63.fbx.proxad.net] has left #openttd [] 01:17:53 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5de8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:10 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:51 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f40a:cb55:88fd:d750] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:47:52 *** Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:04:51 *** nicfer1 [~nicfer@190.50.38.210] has joined #openttd 03:10:30 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.18.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:15:49 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-248.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 03:20:29 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 04:38:22 <xiong> When laying track, frequently I create little stubby bits at corners. Can I fix this? 04:39:41 <De_Ghosty> scrrent? 04:39:46 <De_Ghosty> screen? 04:43:19 <GhostlyDeath> There needs to be a way to upgrade tracks along with their vehicles to incompatible types 04:43:28 <De_Ghosty> yea that part sucks 04:43:45 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:44:02 <GhostlyDeath> So you can just drag upgrade all your electrical tracks to maglevs 04:44:45 <GhostlyDeath> Playing with yourself in OpenTTD is fun with 3 computers 04:45:01 <GhostlyDeath> It's like an echo is in the room 04:55:48 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77CF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:02:06 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7602E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:03:50 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 05:05:10 <De_Ghosty> ? 05:15:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.165.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:54 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:18:48 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 05:19:54 *** elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 05:21:32 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 05:25:04 *** nicfer1 [~nicfer@190.50.38.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:54 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:36:04 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 05:44:17 *** davis [~b@p5B28955F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:44:56 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:06:49 <xiong> How can I tell what sort of signal I have already built? It's not possible for me to tell just by looking at it. It's almost invisible. 06:09:08 <xiong> I have a track running left to right and signals on it are edge-on. I have no idea what kind of signals they are. 06:10:22 <xiong> Especially, I would like to be able to see what track a given signal controls. In the simple case of a long straight and block signals, yes, it's obvious: the section between one signal and the next. In more complex layouts, it's obscure. 06:27:34 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:36:13 *** andythenorth___ [~andy@myc1635.demon.co.uk] has joined #openttd 06:44:14 *** andythenorth___ [~andy@myc1635.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:03:38 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:08:58 *** Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has joined #openttd 07:11:59 <xiong> How can I tell what sort of signal I have already built? It's not possible for me to tell just by looking at it. It's almost invisible. 07:13:29 <nstehusanthe> test 07:13:34 *** nstehusanthe [~thok@524B7349.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: If I were a rich man, Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum. All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. If I were a wealthy man.] 07:13:46 *** asnoehu [~thok@524B7349.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 07:44:34 <Terkhen> good morning 07:44:56 <andythenorth_> hi Terkhen 07:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> xiong: the query window should tell 07:45:07 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 07:49:06 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:50:11 <planetmaker> xiong: you also want to maybe update OpenGFX, if you don't have 0.3.x :-) 07:50:18 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen 07:55:28 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Um, do you mean click the ? at the right end of the main toolbar? 07:55:46 <xiong> planetmaker, I just installed all fresh. 07:56:22 <xiong> To me, everything is very small. I'm thinking seriously of logging in as a different user and changing screen res. That's inconvenient. 07:56:30 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-216.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:56:54 <planetmaker> xiong: 'installed all fresh' does not tell about a version :-) 07:57:10 <planetmaker> and also it's usually no fix for anything 07:57:20 <planetmaker> especially wrt OpenTTD 07:57:49 <Alberth> with all, except broken programs, usually :) 07:57:55 <xiong> I mean that I installed the latest available stable version of OpenTDD, OpenGFX, and so forth. 07:58:58 <andythenorth_> FIRS 0.5.0 released :) 07:59:16 <Alberth> \o/ 07:59:52 <xiong> I have OpenTDD 1.04 and OpenGFX 0.31. 08:00:24 <xiong> I would like to be able to zoom in at least 1 more level, preferably 3. 08:00:51 <xiong> I have installed a screen magnifier but of course, that only makes the pixels appear bigger; it adds no detail. 08:01:31 <Alberth> that only breaks all graphics 08:02:57 <xiong> I see that the ? tool does tell me something about my signals. Thanks Eddi|zuHause++. I still have to infer from the position of the signal relative to the track which way it is facing, I guess. 08:05:48 <xiong> To clarify: YAPF is internal, it's not an option, download, or setting. --? 08:06:37 <Alberth> you *can* set pathfinders such as YAPF to be used for types of vehicles 08:06:53 <Alberth> (not that I ever changed such a setting) 08:08:07 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:52 <Alberth> OpenTTD has 3(?) different algorithms for deciding what route vehicles take, YAPF is one of them 08:10:44 *** andythenorth__ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 08:11:14 <xiong> I'm concerned because I would like to increase station spread above 12 -- not outrageously so but a fair-sized town goes well over that, especially since a large rail station really needs to be on the outskirts. 08:11:29 <V453000> which has nothing to do with pathfinding :) 08:11:38 <V453000> stations subtab in menu 08:11:44 <xiong> IIUC, YAPF permits a larger station spread. I only know what I read. 08:11:57 *** JVassie_ [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 08:12:02 *** GecK [Geck@pro75-3-82-229-184-63.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 08:12:04 <GecK> hi 08:12:38 <Rubidium> all pathfinders permit a larger station spread 08:13:47 <xiong> (http://wiki.openttd.org/Change_station_spread) -- "Be careful if not using the YAPF pathfinding though: The game will slow and then become unstable when you set this to a value higher than the default of 12." 08:14:13 <planetmaker> that is still somewhat true 08:14:16 <xiong> I can tolerate slow, I might even like it; but I don't want to introduce instability. 08:14:18 <Alberth> xiong: pathfinding is about what tracks are chosen by a train, it has nothing to do with cargo coverage of a station 08:14:20 <planetmaker> but it doesn't mean it won't work 08:14:34 *** fanioz [~fanioz@223.255.225.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:15:05 <xiong> Alberth, If there's no relationship, I suggest the wiki be edited. I surely don't know enough to make the edit myself. 08:15:31 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:15:58 <Alberth> little use, some people see that change, believe it is wrong, and 'fix' it again. 08:16:06 <xiong> Again, IIUC, increasing station spread doesn't increase the capture area of a given station; it only allows substations to be spread out more. 08:17:14 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:17:15 <andythenorth__> the station will be physically larger, so will cover a greater area 08:17:27 <xiong> My theory -- if I may be excused for having one -- is to put a bus station right downtown, the big rail on the outskirts, and perhaps another bus station or two to capture all of the town for the station. All of these, subs of a single station. 08:18:03 <andythenorth__> it'll work 08:18:29 <Alberth> but it is not needed, if you provide good service, you'll get more than enough passengers 08:18:32 <xiong> Only if I increase station spread. 12 is really restrictive. 08:18:41 * andythenorth__ doesn't fancy explaining how catchment areas *actually* work 08:18:47 <V453000> although it is quite boring to walk stations so much :p 08:18:58 * Alberth doesn't really know nor care 08:19:04 <andythenorth__> better that way 08:19:16 <andythenorth__> frosch made me understand it properly one day :( 08:19:29 <andythenorth__> it's a bit bonkers 08:19:39 <Alberth> oh dear, and now you're stuck with that knowledge :p 08:19:53 <xiong> So, YAPF definitely has nothing to do with station spread slowdown? 08:20:20 <Alberth> I'd say so 08:20:46 <Alberth> xiong: it is much more fun to have several stations in the town, and built transport between them 08:21:04 <andythenorth__> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/station_catchment.png 08:21:07 <andythenorth__> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/station_catchment.png 08:21:19 <andythenorth__> can't remember which is which, but supply / accept are rather different :o 08:21:28 <andythenorth__> there were a couple of minor bugs in those drawings 08:21:36 <planetmaker> Alberth: afaik _any_ PF will slow down. The reason begin that the possible destinations are much bigger, that is the search area around station signs 08:21:38 <andythenorth__> but the basic madness can be seen :) 08:21:57 <planetmaker> probably more so with A* as it's an accurate PF without guessing 08:22:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19DAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:22:29 <Alberth> planetmaker: agreed, there is a indirect relation 08:22:58 <xiong> Well, if there's any relationship whatever, I'd like to be sure I'm using YAPF before I increase station spread. 08:23:14 <xiong> I don't see a setting for it, though. 08:23:16 <planetmaker> xiong: actually it doesn't really matter much... 08:23:26 <planetmaker> the setting is in the adv. settings. 08:23:30 <planetmaker> probably under stations or alike 08:23:36 <andythenorth__> you should use YAPF anyway, for the unrelated reason that it's generally better 08:23:43 <xiong> I'll look for it again. There are many, many settings. 08:23:49 <planetmaker> yes ;-) 08:25:36 <xiong> Ah. Vehicles > Routing > Pathfinder for (foo), three choices. YAPF is set and recommended for road and rail. 08:26:09 <V453000> just use YAPF 08:26:14 <xiong> Oddly, 'original' for ships. I dunno what good ships might be, at least on the maps I've played; they're all islands. 08:26:16 <V453000> dont worry about the rest 08:26:34 <andythenorth__> use original for ships 08:26:38 <V453000> yes :) 08:26:44 <V453000> the recommended things are good 08:26:53 <andythenorth__> I have more ships in most games than any other type of vehicle 08:26:55 <Alberth> xiong: YAPF is *very* expensive for big seas 08:27:18 <Rubidium> s/is/can quite likely be/ 08:27:29 <andythenorth__> ships rock :) 08:30:12 <xiong> Well, I'll get there, and to air also. Right now, rail is quite complex enough. 08:30:55 <xiong> So, has anyone got a number for station spread? I don't just want to crank it up until it crashes. This is already experimental enough. 16 sound safe? 24 risky? 08:32:23 <V453000> 64 08:33:09 <xiong> I should say I'm running Linux, specifically Ubuntu 9.10. I nail my processor to 1.6 GHz for this sort of thing; it can go faster for short periods but not too long without overheating. 08:33:11 <andythenorth__> I prefer ships because the routing is braindead. Just build two docks and some bouys. No congestion, no lost ships, no signals 08:34:30 <V453000> braindead = boring for me :) 08:34:56 <xiong> Okay, well, 64 sounds a lot like instant trouble. Seriously? 08:35:29 <V453000> why trouble 08:35:33 <andythenorth__> V453000: one platform 64 tiles long, or 64 platforms? 08:35:34 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 08:35:53 <V453000> andythenorth_ neither, you dont need to use the full spread ;) 08:35:57 <V453000> just the freedom 08:36:28 <V453000> we had even about 200 platforms in one of our games :p 08:36:34 * andythenorth__ builds 1-2 platform stations and watches trains stack up outside 08:37:34 <V453000> imo there is no need to restrict yourself with lower station spreads when you play SP ... 08:39:07 <xiong> I'm just looking for some rational guidance. The setting for station spread is marked with a clear warning, in red type. 08:42:42 <V453000> ignore it 08:46:48 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:48:21 *** andythenorth__ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth__] 08:49:21 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 08:53:48 <xiong> Hm. Okay, I'll try it. 08:54:44 <xiong> Moving on: The game seems pretty stable now, with one exception: When I quit the game entirely, it hangs. I have to open a terminal window and kill its process -- ugly. 08:55:08 <SpComb> the pulseaudio thing? 08:56:51 <planetmaker> known-bugs.txt might have something on it 09:09:04 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.233.18] has joined #openttd 09:15:18 <xiong> pulseaudio, eh? You know, even with the sound and music add-ons, I hear nothing. 09:16:11 <xiong> Perhaps I should try disabling both. 09:16:26 <xiong> Not sure how much sound helps in a game like this. 09:16:57 <SpComb> the music is a classic 09:17:02 <V453000> I play without sound :p 09:17:13 <SpComb> just the other day I heard someone with the theme tune as their ringtone 09:17:27 <xiong> Well, I have got a small rail system, with pax and frieght; a small bus and mail truck system; and two airports. Everything works, if not well. 09:18:24 <xiong> I should probably build a couple of docks, just to say I did it. Then, I think I'll start over, now that I don't know what I'm doing -- a step up from complete ignorance, I hope. 09:18:31 <planetmaker> xiong: you know. Having the add-ons is not enough. you also need to enable them and set the gfx / music volume 09:18:42 <planetmaker> which you - silly as it is - can only do when you are running a game 09:18:49 <planetmaker> not from the main menu 09:19:56 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0f0b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:19:59 <xiong> If they are doing anything to crash the game, not worth it. 09:22:32 <Rubidium> even if you disable sound pulseaudio might fuck up when closing OpenTTD, i.e. read the part of known-bugs.txt about hangs upon exit 09:27:13 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF81ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:34:51 <xiong> Rubidium, I've been reading that and experimenting. You're right; choosing 'no sound' and 'no music' doesn't help. 09:36:14 <xiong> What's really annoying is that the GUI force-quit tool isn't sufficient. It kills the window but top says openttd is still running. I have to kill it in the terminal. 09:37:02 <xiong> I'm not sure how ready I am to mess with pulseaudio. What might that do to, say, DVD playback? 09:39:01 <xiong> Perhaps it makes more sense just to kill pulseaudio; if I play a DVD or stream some music, I can restart it. I very rarely do either. 09:39:07 <Rubidium> I've got no idea what it might do, though arguable installing libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio shouldn't influence DVD playback unless it uses libsdl (which is quite unlikely) 09:40:05 <xiong> Well, frankly, I don't even know what pulseaudio does. It's been on my list of things-to-learn-about, because it's a regular offender in top. 09:49:17 <xiong> man pasuspender 09:52:42 <xiong> Nope; that didn't do it. I guess it's time to follow the instructions. 10:02:38 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.227.88] has joined #openttd 10:04:23 <xiong> Okay, well, that didn't work either. The fix that works is '$ pulseaudio -kill'. 10:04:34 <xiong> Then, openttd quits very nicely. 10:05:04 <xiong> More hot chocolate, anyone? I have mini-marshmallows. 10:11:09 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 10:13:33 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:15:22 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:44 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 10:26:38 *** elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:33:07 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 10:38:18 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-67-91.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 10:39:33 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 10:42:45 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.233.18] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:26 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 10:46:26 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3CF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:48:35 *** davis [~b@p5B28BA95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:54:30 *** aloneman [~aloneman@78.188.204.135] has joined #openttd 10:55:26 *** aloneman [~aloneman@78.188.204.135] has quit [] 10:58:29 *** elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 11:00:17 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:05:16 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:34 *** elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:18 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe2ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:47:39 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbaae82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:51:10 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-248.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:58:34 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbaae82.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:23 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.165.18] has joined #openttd 12:14:32 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:17:34 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:50 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:22:34 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:22:57 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:27:12 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:36:20 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:41c3:5a97:8df9:916b] has joined #openttd 12:36:23 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:47:03 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:33 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:55:19 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:39 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:59:09 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:15 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 13:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> "you have unlocked 19 of 120 achievements (16%)" 13:42:03 *** fmauneko [~fmauneko@88.166.241.226] has joined #openttd 13:44:02 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-221-142.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:45:41 *** Tim [~Tim@ip503c44ac.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 13:49:12 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-67-91.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 13:52:54 *** Tim [~Tim@ip503c44ac.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:14 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:26:50 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c6b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:30:38 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 14:30:38 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:31 <__ln__> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/10/msg00103.html 14:47:02 <Alberth> now that seems like a useful way to spend development time :p 14:48:47 <planetmaker> seems like the date is wrong ;-) 14:58:00 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.232.19] has joined #openttd 15:04:35 <Xaroth> nah 15:04:46 <Xaroth> 10:10:10 @ 10:10:10 GMT 15:05:20 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.38.210] has joined #openttd 15:11:46 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.38.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:38 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:29:14 * andythenorth_ ponders 15:29:47 <andythenorth_> I'm playing a nice FIRS game 15:29:56 <andythenorth_> pretty much everything is balanced 15:30:04 <andythenorth_> but I'm not bothering to transport food :P 15:30:12 <andythenorth_> don't know why 15:30:37 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF81ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:31:03 <planetmaker> no town effect cargo anymore ;-) 15:31:34 <andythenorth_> neither has building materials 15:31:39 <andythenorth_> but I'm transporting lots of that :o 15:32:39 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 15:32:40 <andythenorth_> most of the various food processing plants are quite a long way from the farm clusters 15:32:55 <andythenorth_> maybe I should make them try and locate nearer to the processors by default 15:33:02 <andythenorth_> irl the argument could go either way 15:33:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20913 /trunk/bin/ai/ (compat_0.7.nut compat_1.0.nut): -Fix (r19231): [NoAI] give the correct error message if you try to overbuild an opponont road station with your own while using the 0.7 or 1.0 compatibility layer (fanioz) 15:33:11 <andythenorth_> so what is better for the game? 15:34:52 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.70.125.52] has joined #openttd 15:38:41 <planetmaker> it doesn't matter 15:41:05 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 15:45:03 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 15:49:50 *** Chillosophy [~fu@82-170-139-109.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 15:51:55 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-89-66.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 16:12:19 *** murr4y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 16:14:57 *** murr5y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 16:16:47 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host92-234-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 16:17:20 <Wolf01> hello 16:19:25 <Zuu> hello 16:20:37 *** murr4y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:37:03 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77CF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:42:26 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:47:28 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:47:43 * andythenorth_ ponders splitting Food into more cargos 16:48:11 <andythenorth_> e.g. Meat, Beer, Bread 16:48:13 <andythenorth_> etc. 16:48:24 <andythenorth_> probably a bad idea 16:48:46 <Zuu> would make it really complex I think 16:49:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.162.240] has joined #openttd 16:49:06 <Alberth> didn't you argue against that yesterday? 16:49:21 <andythenorth_> I argued against subtypes :) 16:49:35 <andythenorth_> and I would probably argue against splitting if someone else suggested it 16:49:38 <andythenorth_> I think it's a bad idea 16:50:04 <planetmaker> don't split food 16:50:09 <andythenorth_> it's a bad idea 16:50:18 <planetmaker> sub-types is a good one, though 16:50:20 <planetmaker> ;-) 16:50:32 <andythenorth_> my theory: if there are too many different sources of one cargo, it's somehow less appealing to transport 16:50:38 <planetmaker> adds atmosphere without work 16:50:51 <andythenorth_> Food and Goods have 6 sources each in FIRS 16:50:52 <planetmaker> and sub-types counter your last statement 16:50:56 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:57 <andythenorth_> and I barely transport either 16:51:31 <planetmaker> I don't follow your argument. 16:51:58 <planetmaker> o_O 16:52:00 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure it's a well-rounded argument yet :) 16:52:03 <planetmaker> Spammer in forums VERY active 16:52:20 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:52:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: having only one or two options always... boring ;-) 16:52:34 <planetmaker> as it gives you no means to make for a varied game 16:53:05 <planetmaker> you always then have to start with a -> b as it then produces fast those supplies you need. And then you work up the chain. Oh well 16:53:14 <andythenorth_> I think too many leads to choice paralysis 16:53:22 <andythenorth_> like when you go to Ikea :P 16:53:25 <planetmaker> for you maybe 16:53:33 <planetmaker> I enjoy ikea ;-) 16:54:41 <andythenorth_> how odd :D 16:55:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.165.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:56:07 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: try a FIRS game and let me know how you get on transporting food and goods 16:56:19 <andythenorth_> I can't decide what to do about them (if anything at all) 16:57:37 <planetmaker> food is still a town effect cargo, right? 16:57:55 <andythenorth_> in arctic above snow and tropic in desert yes 16:58:00 <andythenorth_> I'm playing temperate :P 16:58:05 <andythenorth_> I could patch :) 16:58:06 *** murr5y is now known as murr4y 16:58:34 <planetmaker> Yexo: Rubidium can you ban people from forums? 16:58:48 <Yexo> no 16:59:04 <planetmaker> hm, ok 16:59:06 <Yexo> who do you think needs to be banned? 16:59:14 <andythenorth_> kunas292 16:59:17 <planetmaker> the spammer ^ 16:59:29 <planetmaker> like posting 50 spam postings in 10 minutes 17:00:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: ofcourse not, we only have some rights in the OpenTTD subsections 17:00:22 <andythenorth_> maybe industries need food... 17:00:29 <planetmaker> might have been and if it's only temporary for these things :-) 17:02:25 <davis> still looking for the newrail grf which had a parameter for a hedge instead of the usual fence 17:02:31 <davis> it's not swedishrails :I 17:02:47 <Yexo> canrails? 17:03:07 <planetmaker> davis: it IS Swedish Rails 17:03:12 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77CF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:03:17 <davis> I did try every parameter there was 17:03:19 <planetmaker> well... it has *some* bushes. Not a complete hedge 17:03:23 <davis> and there wa sno hedge , it was bushes. 17:03:23 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:24 <davis> yes 17:03:28 <planetmaker> other than that... probably canrail 17:03:34 <planetmaker> but that's not a railtype 17:04:02 <andythenorth_> hmm 17:04:10 <andythenorth_> 22 sources of food on my map, only 9 destinations 17:04:16 <andythenorth_> maybe it's just a balancing problem 17:04:26 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:04:27 <andythenorth_> or maybe some stuff needs removing 17:04:27 <andythenorth_> http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/2181 17:04:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: what's the problem with that? 17:04:42 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure yet 17:04:46 <andythenorth_> I'm thinking about it 17:05:05 *** fjb is now known as Guest2329 17:05:06 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFC8F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:05:11 <planetmaker> there are also more than one store in a town which sell food. Not just one central one. So... 17:06:11 <andythenorth_> maybe TownControl just is the answer 17:06:21 <andythenorth_> I feel like I should edit something more out of FIRS though 17:07:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: you cannot make the Jack of all trades industry grf 17:07:42 <planetmaker> you have to decide on *something* 17:08:07 <planetmaker> And not everytime you feel like 'something slightly different' change the complete newgrf 17:08:14 <planetmaker> you'll run circles eventually 17:08:22 <andythenorth_> I think circles already happened :) 17:08:35 <planetmaker> I didn't dare to say so, but yes 17:09:10 <andythenorth_> I don't want to reinvent the chains again, I think they're done 17:09:12 <andythenorth_> they play well 17:09:18 <andythenorth_> apart from the last links 17:09:21 <andythenorth_> to town 17:09:30 <andythenorth_> I think it might just be a placement / balancing problem 17:09:42 <planetmaker> a probability, if you want 17:09:44 <andythenorth_> there are some tickets about that already from various people 17:09:49 <planetmaker> But I'd not tinker the chains 17:09:55 <andythenorth_> nah, I'm not going to 17:10:16 <andythenorth_> I have some ideas that fit well into economies, but the chains are...strong now :) 17:10:34 <planetmaker> :-) 17:11:40 <andythenorth_> I think (a) I need to try and make every town accept food by building a store or petrol pump 17:11:53 <andythenorth_> (b) I need to control placement of food processing industries better 17:12:03 <andythenorth_> especially the brewery / bakery spamming of towns 17:12:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: why a)? 17:12:04 *** Guest2329 [~frank@p5DDFC74E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:12:17 <andythenorth_> it's weird that not every town accepts food 17:12:23 <planetmaker> No 17:12:23 <andythenorth_> well maybe do it by population 17:12:28 <planetmaker> it doesn't by default anyway 17:12:28 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:37 <planetmaker> exactly. It's a population issue 17:12:48 <planetmaker> Let it grow. Then it will eventually accept 17:13:02 <planetmaker> Boring if every town accepts everything from the start 17:13:19 <andythenorth_> so try and place a store in every town above a certain popn... 17:13:32 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:13:33 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure I can actually do that, but I can try 17:13:47 <planetmaker> uhm, why? 17:14:01 <planetmaker> I mean... is random not good enough? 17:14:08 <andythenorth_> not in my current game 17:14:15 <planetmaker> why? 17:14:54 <andythenorth_> I have about 25 towns on the map. Nearly all have a food processor nearby, but only seven accept food 17:14:57 <andythenorth_> it's just....weird 17:15:06 <andythenorth_> is the best I can explain it 17:15:23 <planetmaker> then you have too many industries on that map ;-) 17:15:28 <andythenorth_> I run grain *into* town to the brewery or grain mill, then run the resulting food halfway across the map to the nearest store 17:15:29 <Alberth> indsutry generation is, let's say, non-optimal :) 17:15:45 <andythenorth_> I am using a certain helpful patch ;) 17:15:46 <planetmaker> or you got the probabilities wrong 17:15:50 <andythenorth_> yeah 17:15:55 <andythenorth_> I reckon that's a factor 17:16:05 <planetmaker> make the store more likely then others. And the whole issue is gone 17:16:17 <Alberth> isn't it already ? 17:16:20 <planetmaker> But limit it to a certain number per town which depends on the population 17:16:45 <planetmaker> because I really dislike towns which are clustered with industries ;-) 17:17:05 <planetmaker> And a real bonus would be if the placement radius would depend on the population 17:18:32 <andythenorth_> ? 17:19:03 <planetmaker> because simply somthing 15 tiles from the centre in 1900 is nicely at the edge. But in 2050 it's in the financial district with high-rise. And it just doesn't fit and is annoying to connect when I have to slash through 30 tiles of town and even make space for a station 17:19:19 <andythenorth_> ah 17:19:20 <frosch123> so attach it to some town zone 17:19:43 <planetmaker> yeah :-) 17:19:43 <frosch123> like zone 2: will appear in medium towns, but not in the center of big towns 17:19:58 <andythenorth_> currently it just builds like the water tower or tropic bank 17:20:06 <andythenorth_> uses a special industry flag 17:20:09 <planetmaker> their building placement sucks ;-) 17:20:47 <planetmaker> they'll evetually replace all buildings in towns, if they go unchecked. But they're especially bad: they don't die 17:21:06 <andythenorth_> I have them limited so they can't build near each other 17:21:37 <planetmaker> yeah :-) I referenced original industries there 17:22:18 <andythenorth_> I guess fixing these is something for 0.6 17:22:22 <planetmaker> If they close, though, the distance might be less of an issue than maybe the town zone. That's a wonderful idea actually 17:22:33 <andythenorth_> no closing 17:22:50 <andythenorth_> we agreed not to do them as houses because closing is annoying remember :D 17:22:59 <andythenorth_> although that could be prevented 17:23:05 <planetmaker> unserviced ones ;-) 17:23:18 <andythenorth_> maybe it was the minimap that was the killer argument for 'as industry not house' 17:23:30 <planetmaker> nope. it was 'no control over placement' 17:23:51 *** avdg1 [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:23:56 <andythenorth_> yeah 17:23:57 <andythenorth_> ok 17:24:01 <planetmaker> they'd come and go, no matter what the player does. 17:24:11 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:12 <planetmaker> wether he provides good or bad service or doesn't bother at all 17:24:48 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.232.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:25:34 <andythenorth_> maybe I should ticket this 17:28:35 * andythenorth_ pops off for a bit 17:28:37 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 17:30:33 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 17:44:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20914 /trunk/src/lang/german.txt: 17:44:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:44:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker 17:44:27 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.232.28] has joined #openttd 17:44:31 <frosch123> pm safes the nightly :p 17:44:42 <planetmaker> pew 17:44:55 <planetmaker> actually Y3xo did a commit today 17:45:09 <frosch123> hmm, me too 17:45:14 <planetmaker> :-) 17:45:23 <frosch123> 3 changes :) 17:45:30 <Alberth> lots of commits today :) 17:51:26 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 17:51:27 <planetmaker> probably average :-) 17:59:53 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@grm-lovas-128-39-61-228.studby.uia.no] has joined #openttd 18:04:04 <frosch123> arg... silicoids, darloks and klackons ... 18:04:12 <frosch123> three times trouble as opponent 18:05:46 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-43.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 18:06:01 <planetmaker> :-D 18:09:40 <planetmaker> FreeOrion could learn a lot from OpenTTD... 18:10:04 <frosch123> never played freeorion 18:10:07 <frosch123> worth a try? 18:10:19 <planetmaker> I haven't tried this year's stable yet 18:10:34 <planetmaker> Worth a try: maybe, but it's not yet where MOO2 is 18:10:51 <planetmaker> They IMHO go the wrong dev approach 18:11:03 <frosch123> how do you mean? 18:11:39 <planetmaker> they focus too much on looks and too little on game play concept 18:11:56 <planetmaker> result is: what's there looks nice. But the game is boring 18:12:02 <frosch123> mwhahaha, belugas will certainly like freeorion 18:12:08 <planetmaker> :-) 18:12:22 <planetmaker> And it has a hell of dependencies 18:12:33 <frosch123> i google for it, pick the first wiki page, and get a "new contributors often raise the 'realism' thing" 18:12:34 <planetmaker> The SDK one needs is about 150MB 18:12:43 <planetmaker> haha :-) 18:13:01 <planetmaker> Without the SDK... oh well. Difficult to get everything properly setup 18:13:10 <frosch123> http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9652#p9652 18:14:16 <planetmaker> Also the approach is to implement one game feature per version step. As such there's no diplomacy, no interaction etc... 18:14:24 <planetmaker> and won't be before a few years given the timeline 18:14:36 <planetmaker> But there'll be a 3D whatever battle system soon (or now?) 18:14:40 <planetmaker> oh well 18:15:22 <planetmaker> The design seems top down. OpenTTD is bottom up :-) 18:16:09 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:16:23 <planetmaker> and IMHO bottom up allows easier contributions. In those places a person is interested in. 18:16:30 <planetmaker> Allows smaller steps 18:17:10 <Terkhen> I tested it a few months ago, the gameplay seemed simpler than MOO 18:17:25 <planetmaker> While obviously it stell allows major steps. Like the window system. Like the path signals... 18:17:30 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes 18:17:39 <planetmaker> as major parts are missing :-) 18:17:43 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19DAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:50 <planetmaker> not sophisticated techs, no interaction 18:18:11 <Terkhen> yeah, I missed diplomacy and custom races 18:18:40 <Terkhen> and probably techs too :P 18:19:10 * frosch123 always picks the "do not bother me"-special-skills of custom race 18:19:27 <planetmaker> The amount of techs is ok, ... but yeah. No interaction etc 18:19:43 <frosch123> omniscient (no scouting), and telepathic (no transporters) :p 18:19:45 * planetmaker usually picks kinda tech-centred 18:19:58 <planetmaker> but telepathic is nice :-) 18:20:18 <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't remember what choices I did in MOO2... maybe is time to play it again 18:20:30 <planetmaker> :-) 18:21:55 *** murr4y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:03 <frosch123> ah, well, i guess silicoids+darkloks+klackons is not as bad as psilons+darloks+klackons 18:23:00 <planetmaker> :-) yep 18:28:51 <trebuchet> FreeOrion. 18:30:38 *** fjb is now known as Guest2347 18:30:39 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFFA5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:35:15 <Xaroth> what.. -is- freeorion? :o 18:35:52 <planetmaker> Xaroth: you know Master of Orion, MOO? 18:35:59 <Xaroth> noooot really 18:36:11 <planetmaker> well. FreeOrion is to MOO2 what OpenTTD is to TTD 18:36:20 <Xaroth> ah 18:36:24 <planetmaker> but not that advanced 18:37:34 *** Guest2347 [~frank@p5DDFC8F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:38:28 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-239-44.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:39:23 <trebuchet> It looks way better though. It just needs maturation. 18:39:33 <trebuchet> Slow and steady it goes. 18:41:12 <trebuchet> Ah, scrolling up planetmaker already covered this. planetmaker, what do you suggest to the FreeOrion devs? 18:42:17 <trebuchet> It looks like they say "no" to things, instead of green-lighting everything and having the project derail. 18:48:34 <planetmaker> I had that discussion with them :-) One can do it one way or another, buttom up or top down design approach. But not mixed. 18:49:00 <planetmaker> But comparing OpenTTD and FreeOrion, both have a similar age, I know which is more successful 18:49:07 <planetmaker> The original games were similarily popular 18:49:17 * SmatZ doesn't know Orion 18:49:45 <planetmaker> MasterOfOrion was the name 18:50:04 * SmatZ knows the name, but never played it 18:50:13 <SmatZ> so OpenTTD >> FreeOrion 18:50:31 <SmatZ> (what else would anyone expect at #openttd ;) 18:50:47 <planetmaker> also true wrt user and dev base 18:51:50 <SmatZ> sorry, for some reason my BNC didn't post history of this channel 18:51:58 <SmatZ> so I don't know what's the discussion about 18:52:04 <SmatZ> (was I kicked from this channel?) 18:53:44 <frosch123> yesterday was some netsplit maybe 18:54:01 <SmatZ> I was here this morning :( 18:56:38 <frosch123> looks like i am quite lucky 18:57:17 <SmatZ> :) 18:58:06 <Wolf01> 'nighty night 18:58:15 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host92-234-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 19:01:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19DAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:22:42 <trebuchet> SmatZ: They're... different games... 19:23:20 <trebuchet> planetmaker: Well, hopefully sometime, like 2016 or something, we'll have a playable version of FreeOrion. 19:23:36 <xiong> Okay, let me try again. How can I tell which way a one-way signal is facing? And how can I change its direction? 19:23:37 <planetmaker> yeah... maybe 19:23:53 <xiong> Obviously, I don't understand the manual. 19:24:36 <planetmaker> click on a signal to change the way it faces 19:24:48 <planetmaker> obviously it acts in the direction the light faces 19:25:00 <planetmaker> I don't consider semaphores usable ;-) 19:26:07 <xiong> I can't really tell which way the light faces. And I don't see a clear difference between semaphores and lights. What am I missing? 19:28:14 <xiong> When you say 'click', what state must the cursor be in before the click? 19:29:07 <xiong> If I clear the cursor state (esc), then clicking appears to do nothing. The appearance of the signal does not change; and my one train stops at it, still. 19:30:22 <xiong> The ? tool tells me it is a one-way path signal. So, presumably, if there is only one train in the whole system and it stops here, it must be facing the wrong way. No? 19:30:29 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:30:59 <Alberth> sounds logical :) 19:32:17 <xiong> I need a better way to deal with signals. This is intensely frustrating. A signal can face in one of 8 directions and be of one of 5 types. I don't mind the complexity but I want some way to see and change signals. 19:32:36 <xiong> ... one of 10 types if you include semaphores. 19:32:57 <xiong> Is there no clear, detailed signal dialog? 19:32:57 <Alberth> adv.settings->construction->signals->show signals on the drive side->on 19:33:09 <xiong> Alberth, I have that set. 19:33:13 <Alberth> you do use the signal gui? 19:33:36 <xiong> That's part of my annoyance. It seems to me that when I change a one-way signal, it should hop from one side of the track to the other. 19:33:45 <Alberth> the settings below the previous one 19:33:47 <xiong> I do use the signal gui. 19:33:56 <Alberth> it does 19:34:12 <Yexo> xiong: you have to select the signal tool before clicking the signal 19:34:23 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:34:30 <xiong> Again, it's frustrating, because all the icons look alike. But I right-click and figure out what's what, then place. 19:34:59 <xiong> Yexo, okay. Then I don't want to click with a clear cursor. I want to click with a... which signal cursor? 19:35:11 <Yexo> doesn't matter which one 19:35:13 <Alberth> the button you have pressed in the gui is the signal you place 19:35:17 <Yexo> any signal cursor will do 19:35:47 <xiong> Alberth, Understand. The signal is already placed; it's a one-way path signal -- so says the ? tool. I want to reverse its direction, I think. 19:36:25 <Alberth> you have a white square due to having selected a signal? 19:37:03 <Alberth> then click at the rail of the signal you want to switch, and it will change direction (rotate between 2 different versions, actually) 19:37:32 <xiong> Ah, now I get it. I had the 'change signal type' icon selected. 19:37:39 <Alberth> if you pick the normal block signal, the rotation becomes important 19:37:41 <xiong> ... which is *not* what I want. 19:38:13 <xiong> My one-way path signal successfully hopped to the other side of the track and the train went through. 19:38:43 <xiong> Am I just too old for this? Was this game designed by younger eyes? 19:38:50 <Alberth> no, then you forcibly place the selected type of signal, and nothing happens if you already have such a signal :) 19:39:17 <Alberth> game graphics were designed 20+ years back, screen resolution was less high then :) 19:40:32 <xiong> All the signals look almost exactly alike. I can barely tell the semaphores from the lights. I can almost pick out the different types of signal when they face me directly. I cannot imagine how one is supposed to figure out the type of a signal that is facing away from the player. 19:40:58 <Alberth> I never use the semaphores, too confusing for me 19:41:22 <xiong> Again, I completely do not understand the advantage of either. 19:41:33 <Alberth> you actually only need a few different signals 19:42:07 <Alberth> some people wanted to have 'early' signals, apparently, so somebody added them, most likely 19:42:16 <xiong> 8 directions, 10 types including semaphores, and for each, 2 states, red and green. That's a total of 160 different things one can see and I can see at most about 5. 19:42:30 <Alberth> and it makes sense to have more than one set of signals for the 100 years of game play 19:43:19 <Alberth> for your own sanity forget about semaphores :) 19:43:20 <xiong> Yes, I understand about the historicity of semaphores. Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell which is which in either era. 19:43:42 <xiong> I can't see why lights are easier or better. I'd like to know why you think so. 19:44:31 <Alberth> I am trying to make it simpler for you, throwing out useless stuff helps, usually :) 19:45:34 <xiong> A signal is a perfect example of why a photograph is not always the best tool for communication. In a photo, an office building is hundreds of times bigger than a signal. But the office building has very little game meaning; the signal is complex and important. 19:46:02 <xiong> Alberth, Both types of signals are equally useful/useless to me. I can't distinguish them. 19:46:40 <planetmaker> are you just randomly ranting now? 19:46:45 <xiong> What's wanted is not a photo but a schematic, in which a signal can be blown up to the size of an office building and examined. 19:46:45 <Alberth> I have played the game with just the block signals for years 19:47:17 <Alberth> 'schematic' ? 19:47:20 * planetmaker always plays with light singals. And preferrably with block signals 19:47:21 <xiong> planetmaker, I'm intensely frustrated at not being able to deal with the signals. I can't see them clearly. Is that not obvious? 19:47:36 <planetmaker> obvious is you ranting 19:47:49 <planetmaker> complaining about the whole thing being bad 19:47:52 <xiong> That's not a random rant. I want to see the signals -- actually, I want to be able to see the signal states. 19:47:58 <Alberth> they are at a predictable side of the tracks 19:48:06 <planetmaker> then don't play at 1600x1200 but at 640x480 19:48:14 <V453000> signals are quite well visible btw 19:48:27 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF81ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 19:48:29 <V453000> yea, as pm says :) with reasonable res 19:48:38 <xiong> Okay, again: If the signal is facing away from me, how can I see its state? 19:48:47 <planetmaker> you don't. 19:48:52 <planetmaker> but you see the type 19:49:02 <V453000> why do you need to know the state 19:49:04 <planetmaker> as they have different back sides 19:49:10 <V453000> just look if there is train or not :) 19:49:29 <xiong> Actually, no, planetmaker; I do not see the type. I can get that with the ? tool, which is better than nothing. 19:49:31 <Alberth> you don't see the state, but it is not necessary, trust the computer to handle the state correctly :) 19:50:08 <planetmaker> xiong: the backsides ARE different. And the colour bar for block signals is also visible 19:50:48 <planetmaker> it might be sometimes a bit hard to distinguish exit from combo signal. But that's the worst 19:50:52 <V453000> xiong: you apparently are the only one who has problems with this 19:50:54 <xiong> I don't feel that I'm being clear. I'm not a young guy. I just can't see these things. 19:51:29 <planetmaker> my eyesight is definitely not the best but it works for me 19:51:59 <V453000> I have about 1600x1200 here and it is fine 19:52:11 <planetmaker> but you're young and have good eyes ;-) 19:52:23 <xiong> You say that you can tell the type of a signal from the back side. I cannot tell which way some signals face; they appear on both sides of the track. 19:52:51 <V453000> well then make them one way? 19:52:57 <V453000> (by clicking multiple times) 19:53:16 <V453000> btw for how long have you been playing the game? you seem to be more talking here than anything else possibly :) 19:53:28 <xiong> In some cases, I can't tell which track a signal belongs to. 19:53:38 <planetmaker> xiong: if you see the light: it faces you. If not: it faces away from you 19:53:41 <planetmaker> quite obvious 19:54:02 <xiong> Right. Except I can't see the lights either way. All I see is a sort of vertical black dot. 19:54:03 <planetmaker> which side they're on: depends upon your settings. I have them on the driving side 19:54:30 <planetmaker> if you see just one dot, you play at the wrong resolution 19:54:35 <planetmaker> or need glasses 19:54:39 <V453000> or both :) 19:54:52 <Zuu> Or make a grf with giant signals? 19:54:53 <planetmaker> they're not big. But they are not that bad as you describe them 19:54:59 <planetmaker> or what Zuu sais 19:55:09 <V453000> lol :D signals over the whole tile? :) 19:55:12 <planetmaker> Or get the 32bpp extra zoom patch. They might have big signals 19:55:13 <xiong> The rails are also black -- technically, the trackbed is black. I can only see some signals because they show as a break in the rails behind them. 19:55:41 <planetmaker> eh? 19:55:46 <planetmaker> care to share a screenshot? 19:55:47 <Zuu> Is the transparency sprite made on the fly by OpenTTD, or could there be giant non-transparent signals with smaller transparent signals? 19:55:48 <xiong> I wear glasses. This is a serious thing to me. 19:56:14 <planetmaker> the way you bitch around, I believe you in that 19:56:24 <Alberth> try te reduce the screen resolution one time 19:56:31 <Alberth> *to 19:56:40 <xiong> planetmaker, I don't doubt that you are seeing the same thing I am seeing. The difference is in our personal abilities. Am I not allowed to say this? 19:56:56 <V453000> did you reduce the resolution or not? 19:56:57 <planetmaker> you are. Still: care to post a screenshot? 19:57:16 <planetmaker> I like to get an impression of how your (full) screen looks like 19:57:45 <planetmaker> I can't play with 1600x1200 on 17" 19:58:18 <xiong> V453000, I can't figure out what you mean by 'reduce the resolution'. If I change the size of the window, I just get a smaller window. 19:58:34 <planetmaker> ... 19:58:48 <xiong> planetmaker, I'll be happy to do so. Feel free to comment. 19:58:52 <V453000> just reduce the screen window? ._. 19:58:57 <xiong> ... one moment ... 19:59:14 <planetmaker> you can post it to img.openttdcoop.org, if you need a place to paste it 20:00:24 <planetmaker> xiong: what size is your monitor and what resolution does it have? 20:01:50 <xiong> Ah, you want me to reduce my system resolution. That will absolutely screw up everything else on the system. 20:02:09 <planetmaker> well. 20:02:11 <planetmaker> yes 20:02:28 <planetmaker> or play in full screen mode. Then OpenTTD allows to select a lower one 20:02:49 <planetmaker> but how can you see the other stuff? 20:02:55 <xiong> We're talking total destruction -- elements of the system GUI get screwed up and must be reset. 20:03:08 <planetmaker> you have the same issue there 20:03:26 <xiong> Let me post the screenshot. 20:04:24 <planetmaker> In any case: Use a reasonable resolution wrt your eye sight 20:04:40 <planetmaker> Or play full screen and adjust a comfortable one, selecting it from the game options 20:04:49 <xiong> Let me post the screenshot. 20:06:02 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.38.210] has joined #openttd 20:06:53 <V453000> does anyone please remember how is called the cmd of removing signs in the gamelog? 20:06:56 <V453000> Cmd... 20:07:16 <xiong> http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2932/harrisburgstation.png 20:07:55 <xiong> You see that I have system GUI elements sized so I can see them. In things like XChat and text editors, I have appropriately-sized fonts. 20:08:54 <planetmaker> right, thanks 20:09:13 <Alberth> V453000: command_type.h lists all commands 20:09:19 <planetmaker> in any case: signals are always on the right side in your case 20:09:59 <V453000> Alberth: how? :o 20:10:13 <xiong> Yes; I'm clear about that. I set it that way. Signals on the drive side. 20:10:46 <Alberth> oh, you are not looking in the source code? 20:10:54 <xiong> Except, some signals appear on both sides of the track. Perhaps in those cases, it doesn't matter which way they face -- or more precisely, they face both ways. 20:11:23 <V453000> Alberth: I just have the log from the game, and I need to find who removed some sign 20:11:43 <planetmaker> xiong: block signals can be like "one each way" "one-way A", "one-way B" 20:11:45 <xiong> As I said, though, to me it's not entirely clear which track some signals are on. I can peer very closely at it and figure it out but I can't get an overall picture in my mind without a lot of work. 20:12:08 <xiong> It's very difficult, that's all. 20:12:18 <Zuu> xiong: Have you tried the old-style signals with moving arms? 20:12:44 <Zuu> They are white and might give you better contrast. 20:12:46 <planetmaker> how big is your screen then, xiong ? 20:12:54 <xiong> Zuu, That's why I was trying to get semaphores straight with Alberth. 20:13:09 <xiong> planetmaker, That's a whole-screen shot. 20:13:13 <Zuu> xiong: Do you have the signal gui enabled? 20:13:27 <planetmaker> yes, but it can be on 13" or on 24" ;-) 20:13:29 <Zuu> Eg, when you click on the signal button on the toolbar, does a window appear? 20:13:30 <planetmaker> makes a difference 20:13:33 <xiong> 1280 x 940 20:13:45 <planetmaker> yes. But that's no physical size ;-) 20:13:54 <xiong> You mean, in inches? I'm not sure. Not big; it's a laptop. 20:14:13 <planetmaker> well. there's like 11" to 17" 20:14:33 <xiong> About 12" wide. I don't have a scale handy. 20:15:13 <xiong> I'd estimate about 15", diagonally. 20:15:26 <planetmaker> right, thx 20:15:48 <xiong> A bigger monitor would be nice, yes. So many things would be nice. 20:16:11 <Zuu> Today you can get a 24" monitor for about 200 euro. 20:16:23 <Zuu> Not the best colors, but still. 20:16:27 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:43 <Zuu> And a 22" may be even like 150 euros or so. 20:17:28 <planetmaker> yep 20:18:13 <xiong> Zuu, I have a bigger monitor already. It's not as easy as you think. Where do I put it? Look, please, let's not try to solve this, this way. 20:18:49 <planetmaker> seems about the same scale as here. 20:19:11 <planetmaker> which acceptable IMHO 20:19:14 <Zuu> xiong: If I understand yet, you had problems finding out how to build semaphors? 20:19:24 <planetmaker> the other way to solve it is: draw bigger and nicer graphics 20:19:25 <xiong> If you want to know the entire chain of causation, it starts with buying a motor vehicle, which will allow me to go to storage and retrieve my desk, which will give me a place to put a large monitor and also a way to go get more cast-off computer gear to assemble. 20:19:37 <Zuu> Is [Advanced Settings] -> [Construction] -> [Signals] -> [Enable the signal GUI] = On? 20:19:40 <xiong> Zuu, No, I can build sems. 20:19:48 <xiong> I have the signal gui on. 20:19:59 <Zuu> Ok good 20:20:42 <xiong> I think you have the right idea, planetmaker. Has this not been done? If not, well, I has graphics skills. 20:21:10 <planetmaker> It hasn't been done. At least not in 8bpp which the game supports by default. 20:21:42 <xiong> I looked at 32bpp. Should I try to install it? It looks hairy but there seems to be a win. 20:21:42 *** murr4y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 20:21:47 <planetmaker> There's an "extra zoom" patch with 32bpp graphics which is in non-official development 20:21:59 <planetmaker> it might suit you 20:22:09 <xiong> I'm wary of hair. 20:22:18 <planetmaker> use a razor then ;-) 20:22:24 <planetmaker> :-P 20:22:48 <planetmaker> the amount of hariyness might be a subjective thing 20:23:28 <xiong> My feeling about something like a signal is that although it may look cute on the board if it is representational, the player should be able to see it in the same aspect at all times. That is, it should always face the player, with an indication of which way it faces on the board. And it should be much larger. 20:24:02 <Alberth> so make a NewGRF that does exactly that 20:24:16 <planetmaker> xiong: 20:24:21 <planetmaker> do what Albert suggests 20:24:38 <xiong> Probably, it is not consistent with the overall game philosophy to tinker with the signal shown on the board. But some sort of pop-up or roll-over could show more detail, more abstractly. 20:24:44 <planetmaker> waiting for *someone* always takes loooong ;-) 20:24:51 <planetmaker> xiong: it's consistent 20:25:01 <xiong> You do know that I have absolutely no experience with NewGRF? 20:25:04 <planetmaker> there are replacement graphics. There are several versions. For every element 20:25:22 <planetmaker> You can replace every single sprite in the game by at least another version 20:25:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: signals should be trivial in NML, are they? 20:25:49 <planetmaker> Replacing signals is one of the easy tasks. Yes, Alberth 20:26:00 <planetmaker> it's just a boring set of actionAs / simple replacements 20:26:39 <planetmaker> Irwe seems to be in a total hiatus... :-( 20:26:40 <Alberth> we have actionAs in NML? hmm, I should read the manual one day :) 20:26:51 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's called replace ;-) 20:27:20 <xiong> Look, I know you get a lot of pointless rants from people who are not able to do any work. That's not me. But please don't suggest it will be easy to dive into a completely new environment and start developing. 20:27:52 <planetmaker> xiong: it's two things, which can be done somewhat independently. 20:28:05 <xiong> If someone is willing to work with me on this, I'm more than willing to produce signal graphics to required specs. 20:28:09 <planetmaker> Drawing the graphics is for this particular problem the way biggest part 20:28:28 <xiong> To me, no. Drawing is the easy part. 20:28:39 <planetmaker> Getting them then ingame is not the most difficult one. 20:28:59 <planetmaker> It's the easiest kind of thing one can do with newgrfs 20:29:19 <xiong> I don't like to sound snotty or arrogant but I have considerable graphic design background. Tell me the format you need signals to be in and I can turn them out. 20:29:58 <xiong> There are, IIUC, a set of 80 required: 8 directions, 5 types, 2 states. 20:30:49 <xiong> You just tell me how you want them: individual files, one big file in a matrix, what file format. I suspect this is 8-bit palette work. No problem. 20:31:23 <xiong> I'd be happiest if I could download a reference palette; that's better than stealing the palette from a screenshot. 20:31:36 <Zuu> You should probably from start get hold of the OpenTTD palette so you don't design them for some other palette. 20:31:46 <planetmaker> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/nightlies/LATEST/grf2html/ogfxe_extra/ <-- 20:31:58 <planetmaker> xiong: png format with a 8bpp palette is what's needed 20:32:08 <planetmaker> you got the amount of sprites 20:32:41 <planetmaker> I can link you to a gimp palette, there are also photoshop palettes around 20:32:49 <xiong> I don't understand what I'm looking at. 20:33:08 <Alberth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/show/sprites/pcx/infrastructure/signals 20:33:14 <xiong> # 0 First Sprite Spritecount 3862 20:33:18 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/documents <-- even both 20:33:22 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbaae82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:33:42 <Zuu> hmm, have purnos grf guide been down for long time? 20:33:46 <planetmaker> xiong: search for 'signals' 20:33:49 <planetmaker> you'll find some 20:34:04 <planetmaker> important is that they're on this blue background 20:34:21 <planetmaker> this blue = transparent 20:34:48 <planetmaker> and they need to follow either the windows or DOS palette. You can chose, doesn't matter which. 20:34:53 <xiong> Okay, well, the second link of planetmaker's is clear. There's the palette, in a few forms. 20:35:08 <xiong> The first link is obscure. 20:35:20 <planetmaker> the firs link only gives the sprites found in one file from the base graphics you use 20:35:26 <planetmaker> among them the path signals 20:35:32 <planetmaker> somewhere 20:36:48 <xiong> Okay, well, this is where I'm going to get stuck. I don't know my way around. Are you willing to work with me on this? I'm happy to crank out the graphics themselves. I don't think I'll get to the point of being able to package them as a NewGRF. 20:36:51 <Alberth> xiong: in the first link, sprite #1254 is the first with signals 20:37:06 <Alberth> look for 'signal' 20:37:06 <planetmaker> actually #1497 is somewhat like a signal set 20:37:28 <planetmaker> xiong: just get the signals 20:37:34 <planetmaker> drawn 20:38:23 <planetmaker> Arrange them in a somewhat convenient way in a graphics file (like all 8 which belong together at the same y-offset or so - that makes linking them easier than finding each *somehwere*) 20:38:30 <planetmaker> and then we can get it done 20:39:15 <planetmaker> yes, I can help you there 20:39:19 <xiong> So, all in one file, as a matrix. Okay; I've done that. 20:39:30 <planetmaker> you have. already? 20:39:35 <xiong> What is the practical limit of the bounding box? 20:39:42 <planetmaker> 255^2 20:39:52 <xiong> I hacked Alpha Centauri and CivII. 20:39:56 <xiong> Same deal. 20:40:01 <planetmaker> good :-) 20:40:45 <planetmaker> practically there's not a limit which is smaller than anything which would look really awkward 20:40:55 <xiong> I meant, the bounding box for an individual signal. Obviously, I want them big. Just as obviously, there's a limit, which depends on many things I can't yet appreciate. 20:41:28 <planetmaker> You'll get problems if it gets to a height of ~170(?) pixels. Probably same with width 20:41:40 <planetmaker> But even those problems are not that severe 20:42:11 <planetmaker> Hm... a width must not exceed 63 actually 20:42:18 <xiong> Well, that would probably be considered seriously outsize. 20:42:20 <planetmaker> pixels 20:42:27 <planetmaker> of course 20:42:36 <planetmaker> it'd be higher than most skyscrapers ingame 20:42:52 <xiong> How tall is a square? 20:42:58 <planetmaker> 32 20:43:10 <planetmaker> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=PalettesAndCoordinates 20:44:15 <xiong> Yah, that looks about right. 32px. 20:44:16 <planetmaker> or rather 31 + 1 pixel border 20:44:39 <planetmaker> but signals must not include ground or track 20:45:01 <xiong> So, perhaps it would be reasonable to plan signals 48px tall, 32 wide? 20:46:01 <xiong> Probably not quite that wide. Existing light signals look to me about 22px tall. 20:46:17 <planetmaker> 32 wide is quite wide 20:46:45 <xiong> Let me sketch something out. BB in a few. 20:46:55 <planetmaker> a train wagon has a length of 32px in -- view 20:48:09 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:52:22 <andythenorth_> diagonal roads would be nice :P 20:53:12 <planetmaker> :-P 20:53:23 <planetmaker> you really breed ponies, eh? ;-) 20:56:21 <V453000> :D 20:58:32 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 20:59:32 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:59:44 <andythenorth_> my idea to allow farms to build on steep slopes was nice....but it makes building RV stops tricky :) 21:00:09 <andythenorth_> anyway 21:00:11 <andythenorth_> bed time 21:00:15 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@host217-44-165-106.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 21:01:48 <frosch123> night 21:01:53 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe2ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:09 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbaae82.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:02 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF81ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:19:41 *** Joni_ [~Joni-@80.220.0.41] has joined #openttd 21:23:52 *** Joni- [~Joni-@80.220.0.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:25:13 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.70.125.52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:53 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:38:54 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-89-66.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:39:20 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-170-130.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 21:39:40 <xiong> Okay, here's a sketch, planetmaker: (http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9301/bigsig001.png) 21:40:27 <xiong> In that sketch, the relationship between the signal and the track is wrong. I mean for the arrow to indicate direction of travel. 21:40:30 <planetmaker> what's the purpose of that white arrow? 21:40:39 <planetmaker> hm 21:41:01 <xiong> At first, I thought the arrow should point in the direction the signal is facing; but that's opposite direction of travel, which is kinda weird. 21:41:02 <planetmaker> so you don't want to show the proper rotations at all? 21:41:17 <xiong> No. All signals face the player directly. 21:41:28 <planetmaker> that'll be really confusing 21:41:43 <xiong> Well, it will be visible to old farts like me. 21:42:05 <planetmaker> what about using that size and rotating it accordingly? 21:42:20 <xiong> I can think of a few variations on the arrow. That one is merely highly visible. 21:42:44 <xiong> Ah, but the whole point, in my mind, is that every signal looks "the same". I don't want a signal to face away from me! 21:42:48 <planetmaker> so... the signal placed as shown there could not be there at all 21:42:57 *** Chillosophy [~fu@82-170-139-109.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [] 21:43:00 <planetmaker> xiong: what's wrong with that? 21:43:07 <xiong> Actually, I think I have the signal placed right on the track ;) 21:43:09 <planetmaker> you don't need to see the signal state 21:43:29 <planetmaker> I didn't mean the placement but track direction and arrow. Which is perpendicular 21:43:30 <xiong> Well I tell you, this is what makes sense to me. Sorry. 21:44:13 <xiong> Oh, as I said, in the sketch, the arrow shows that travel is permitted from southwest to northeast. Look, let me flip something; it will be better. 21:44:29 <planetmaker> yeah, no worries 21:45:07 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0f0b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: gn8] 21:45:44 <planetmaker> I'm quite convinced that the orientation will really become more difficult, if there's only a tiny part of the signal indicating the way it faces 21:46:00 <planetmaker> the actual signal state is usually of no importance at all to the player 21:46:11 <planetmaker> important is facing and type 21:46:47 <planetmaker> the emphasis of your sprite is more on the signal state than the rest 21:47:16 <xiong> There: (http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9301/bigsig001.png). That looks like left-hand placement but you get the idea, I hope. 21:47:36 <planetmaker> yes, I do 21:47:45 <xiong> Well, that's actual size; and I can *see* which way traffic is allowed and what sort of signal it is. 21:48:40 <planetmaker> in any case, your approach makes implementation dead easy. Every sprite has the same size 21:48:40 <xiong> If you're accustomed to having signals facing away from you, I can see how this might look very weird. But for me, coming in from the outside, it makes total sense. 21:48:51 <xiong> Oh yes, all the same. 21:49:50 <xiong> I figure to construct all the elements on different layers and composite them. I'll probably construct the actual elements in a vector graphics editor and rasterize them to layers. This is a proven technique of mine. 21:50:21 <planetmaker> whatever works :-) 21:50:41 <xiong> This is an old tutorial of mine, back when I had a Mac: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphics_in_two_modes) 21:51:21 <xiong> I can't say it's all that informative, unfortunately. The effort was sabotaged by the minders. 21:51:21 <planetmaker> Myself I'm off to bed now, but we can easily create a grf from that another, if the sprites are there 21:51:35 <planetmaker> he, yeah.... wiki 21:52:17 <xiong> Okay, well, I'm off to beat the streets for filthy lucre myself. I'll do a little work on this and show you. We should probably pick a better place than a random image pastebin to share. 21:53:19 <planetmaker> tt-forums.net 21:53:37 <planetmaker> open a dedicated thread in the graphics development sub-forum 21:54:07 <planetmaker> or if you don't like it public, mail me 21:54:24 <planetmaker> mind that I only write newgrf which are GPL licensed ;-) 21:54:31 <planetmaker> or CC-BY 21:55:59 <xiong> Public is fine. Pick a license, you're part of it. I prefer CC, I think it's better adapted to non-code stuff. But I'm mostly indifferent, so long as it's libre-gratis. 21:56:27 <planetmaker> GPL is CC-BY with requirement to publish code on request 21:56:33 <planetmaker> so no difference for graphics really 21:57:33 <xiong> As I said, whatever makes you comfortable. I'd release into public domain if I wasn't (a) concerned about commercial takeover and (b) not so vain as to demur credit. 21:58:27 <xiong> It's really a non-issue to me. I think, in practice, all copyright -- even copyleft -- is impractical to defend. You assert whatever you please and then reality takes over. 21:58:58 <xiong> In the world of FOSS, theft is the highest form of praise. ;) 21:59:29 <xiong> Anyway, I gotta jump in the shower. Next 3 days will be busy. I'll see what I can get out. 21:59:42 <xiong> Have a good night, planetmaker. 21:59:50 <planetmaker> good night, too :-) 22:04:08 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-216.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:08 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> why the hell is X using 800MB of memory? 22:20:42 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a22c8.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:22:48 <trebuchet> Xorg is faaaaaaaaat 22:23:00 <trebuchet> Just a text terminal. 22:26:04 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.38.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:49 <Terkhen> good night 22:35:32 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:57 *** guru3_ [~guru3@81-235-164-123-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 22:35:59 *** guru3 [~guru3@2002:51eb:a47b::1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:51 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-43.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:46:39 *** Joni- [~Joni-@80.220.0.41] has joined #openttd 22:46:52 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 22:51:20 *** Joni_ [~Joni-@80.220.0.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:52:03 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 23:00:31 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.232.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:06:37 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 23:10:04 *** fmauneko [~fmauneko@88.166.241.226] has quit [Quit: fmauneko] 23:10:04 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3CF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:15:53 <GecK> good night 23:15:54 *** GecK [Geck@pro75-3-82-229-184-63.fbx.proxad.net] has left #openttd [] 23:19:25 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 23:24:20 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.227.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:37:24 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 23:49:58 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:50:31 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-221-142.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]