Log for #openttd on 16th October 2010:
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00:05:04  <frosch123> night
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00:32:05  <xiong> The answer to my question is that, for each town name, besides the name itself, may be set a probability of its being used. No other per-name metadata can be set, I think.
00:34:39  <xiong> I haven't yet found a formal statement but I've found this metasyntactic example:
00:34:43  <xiong> text("name1", 1),
00:35:02  <xiong> ... which perhaps could be formalized as:
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00:35:31  <xiong> text(<literal_string>, <integer>),
00:36:29  <xiong> In any case, it's clear that a town name has no attribute or property, apart from the probability of it being chosen.
00:39:00  <xiong> In fact, I think it's even less significant. The <integer> defines the probability of <literal_string> being passed out of the <part> and eventually, out of the town_names block. This seems a complex feature intended to generate random variants.
00:39:26  <xiong> New Haven, Grand Haven, Grand Rapids, Grand Junction, New Junction...
00:40:22  <xiong> This is pointless when considering actual, real town names found on our planet. In a realistic list, each entry is atomic.
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00:43:50  <xiong> Mm, but I suppose that the <integer> can still be used for weighting. So, that's that.
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03:06:20  <xiong> I am looking at ( Near the top, name and desc are specified indirectly; ( suggests that these should be defined in a separate file, lang/default.lng (which I imagine might have a different name).
03:06:53  <xiong> But I do not see this file present in the 'frenchtowns' project anywhere.
03:09:36  <xiong> In fact, I don't see any .lng file associated with frenchtowns.
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04:20:10  <Nite_Owl> So has anyone else become addicted to Civilization V ?
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04:34:05  <trebuchet> FreeCiv, yeah.
04:36:59  <planetmaker> xiong: the files at bundles... are only released files; that includes the grf and some additional information which are among others the plain source, but not language files - unless there's source release for the real releases (not for nightlies). The whole projects including everything are found at e.g.
04:37:07  <planetmaker> good morning #openttd also :-)
04:37:38  <xiong> planetmaker, I'll look there.
04:37:59  <planetmaker>
04:38:21  <xiong> "Oops! This link appears to be broken."
04:39:42  <planetmaker> yes, that's why I posted the corrected one ;-)
04:40:40  <xiong> Lag.
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04:41:21  <xiong> Okay, I have seen that page before. That's how I got to the tarball and the .nml file.
04:42:05  <xiong> Maybe (
04:51:57  <planetmaker> that's the webinterface, yes
04:52:10  <planetmaker> it's meant to be checked-out using mercurial
04:53:41  <Nite_Owl> Time to fly - later all
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05:13:38  <xiong> Okay, planetmaker; I have drilled around the repo until I got here: (
05:14:27  <xiong> This is not working very well. I'm busy building the right-format .nml file with a list of Pennsylvania town names. I'm pretty sure I can write it correctly.
05:14:33  <xiong> I don't know where to go from there.
05:14:52  <planetmaker> the language files are only translations of general strings...
05:15:12  <planetmaker> the French townname project generates the nml file via some script
05:15:24  <planetmaker> look in the data folder for the list of town names
05:15:47  <planetmaker> change that. Change the grfID in And then call
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05:20:58  <xiong> That's beyond me.
05:21:20  <xiong> I have no trouble composing the .nml file directly.
05:21:37  <xiong> Let me work on it.
05:22:07  <xiong> I will put null bytes for the ID, since I don't know how they're assigned or how to avoid conflict.
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05:25:18  <planetmaker> they're not assigned, they're chosen. Usually the first two your initials, the other two a sequential number
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05:52:35  <Rubidium> that reminds me; should export some list of known GRF IDs somewhere
05:58:05  <planetmaker> that'd be awesome
05:58:24  <planetmaker> know... we only know bananas?
05:58:37  <planetmaker> or do we know more? :-P
05:58:57  <planetmaker> and good morning to you :-)
05:59:44  <Terkhen> good morning
06:00:35  <planetmaker> Can a list be exported of grfcrawler?
06:00:39  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
06:02:17  <planetmaker> hm... OpenGFX+Trains seems to have two grfcrawler entries...
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06:13:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20940 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Fix (r20928): switch to the normal alphabet where 'b' comes before 'p'
06:13:42  <xiong> planetmaker, I don't see the distinction between 'chosen' and 'assigned'. How can I be sure the ID I put in 'Pennsylvania Town Names' will be unique?
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06:14:14  <planetmaker> you can't currently
06:14:22  <xiong> Does that matter?
06:14:25  <planetmaker> you may search grfcrawler or look at the list on bananas
06:14:32  <planetmaker> uniqueness matters
06:14:45  <planetmaker> you can't have two newgrf with the same ID in one game
06:14:48  <Yexo> xiong: "assigned" would imply you ask someone/some server for a unique id and use that, "chosen" means you have to chose an id yourself
06:15:38  <xiong> Well. You understand that my sphere of competence is small. I'll do the best I can.
06:16:04  <xiong> If all bytes are valid for all 4 positions, I suppose a collision is unlikely.
06:16:23  <planetmaker> unlikely maybe. But they do occur
06:16:26  <Yexo> all bytes are valid, but most people only use A-Z for the first 2 (or 3) bytes
06:16:39  <planetmaker> actually FF is not valid for the first byte
06:17:08  <planetmaker> 0xFF
06:17:36  <xiong> Well, let's say XL for the first two; that should be uncommon. Should I just say 0x0001 for the last two? Or throw in a random number?
06:17:50  <planetmaker> start with 0000 ;-)
06:18:00  <planetmaker> your 2nd newgrf then could have 0001
06:18:03  <planetmaker> and so on
06:18:10  <planetmaker> that's the usual 'convention'
06:18:25  <planetmaker> but it's not followed by everyone and every newgrf.
06:19:53  <Yexo> 584C0000 is not used on either bananas or grfcrawler, so it should be ok to use
06:20:14  <xiong> Um, that would lead to each author claiming the entire range 0x????0000 to 0x????ffff -- I don't know if that's what I want to do.
06:20:51  <Yexo> you can't formally claim it, if anybody else uploads XL 0382 you can't use it anymore
06:23:07  <xiong> Right. So, since I'm unlikely to do many of these, perhaps I should leave the lower range open to a more productive person. I'll start at 0x786c8000 and think I stay out of trouble.
06:24:11  * planetmaker never followed that convention...
06:24:17  <xiong> That's done. What about comments? I see no way to insert them into a .nml file.
06:24:19  <planetmaker> as I never felt that I'm the sole author
06:24:35  <xiong> Okay, it's not done.
06:24:42  <planetmaker> :-x
06:24:51  <planetmaker> use that number now
06:24:59  <planetmaker> it doesn't matter at all as long as it's unique
06:25:00  <xiong> You said, 'initials'. I'm happy to put anything else in there.
06:25:17  <Yexo> it's fine, as long as it's unique
06:25:42  <xiong> Great. I don't want to be accused of arrogance. Done.
06:25:45  <xiong> What about comments?
06:25:54  <Yexo> surround them by /* and */
06:26:01  <Yexo> or if it's a single line comment put them afer //
06:26:06  <xiong> Ah, C comments. Cool.
06:26:26  <xiong> I write Perl these days. No problem.
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06:30:10  <xiong> Okay, I have a lucid raw list. My plan, following the frenchtowns.nml, is to declare each type of town in a town_names block: cities, towns, small towns, ghost towns. Then, I will write one town_names block that references the others and assigns each group a probability. Correct?
06:34:51  <dihedral> morning
06:34:57  <dihedral> planetmaker, did you have any sleep at all?
06:35:11  <planetmaker> yep a nice one even
06:35:19  <planetmaker> I hope you too :-)
06:35:33  <dihedral> i wake up too early
06:35:33  <planetmaker> >6 hours are sufficient
06:35:49  <dihedral> i wake up with the light
06:35:54  <dihedral> which is really not fair :-D
06:36:58  <dihedral> nowL update to r20936 :-)
06:37:49  <planetmaker> dihedral: then you'll be happy, if I tell you that the next 2 months your sleeping time will then increase from night to night ;-)
06:38:39  <dihedral> i'll be in brazil for 3 weeks in november :-P
06:38:52  <planetmaker> :-) Ok
06:39:10  <planetmaker> currently the nights there'll be shorter - but that's a fair trade-off to be honest :-)
06:41:41  <dihedral> up to the next "winter sonnen wende"
06:41:47  <dihedral> we should meet at stone henge :-D
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06:45:02  <planetmaker> at winter solistice? Hm... I wonder which solistice it was built for :-)
06:45:12  <planetmaker> or even equinox?
06:45:46  <dihedral> was it not for the celebrations of winter and summer "Sommer Wende"
06:47:29  <KouDy> morning
06:48:48  <planetmaker> not? I always thought so
06:49:15  <dihedral> that was a question, just in case i was under the wrong impression :-P
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06:50:15  <planetmaker> he. Well, according to wiki it's not quite clear, but commonly assumed something in that direction, among other things
06:58:54  <andythenorth_> morning
07:02:59  <peter1138> Let me know if you end up at Stone Henge ;P
07:04:25  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: "with great power comes great responsibility" :D
07:04:35  * andythenorth_ ponders FIRS cargos
07:11:44  <dihedral> \o/ got netbeans to crash :-(
07:12:26  <peter1138> Java :(
07:12:36  <dihedral> yarp
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07:12:53  <dihedral> i do not mind a bit of java, and i must say, netbeans is way nicer than eclipse
07:15:21  <peter1138> edit.exe is way nicer than eclipse
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07:17:54  <dihedral> lol
07:18:15  <dihedral> let's just leave it at that then :-P
07:43:20  <xiong>
07:47:07  <planetmaker> you're missing the version property in the grf block
07:47:11  <planetmaker> version: 1
07:47:14  <planetmaker> ;
07:47:25  <xiong> ?
07:47:42  <planetmaker> without a version given in the grf block it won't compile
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07:48:26  <andythenorth_> unstable wireless :|
07:48:27  <planetmaker> <-- see
07:48:32  <planetmaker> moin andythenorth_ :-)
07:48:41  * peter1138 disses opengfx+ trees
07:48:46  <planetmaker> and yes, you're right. I'm terribly aware of it
07:48:49  * andythenorth_ ponders FIRS cargos
07:48:51  <planetmaker> disses?
07:49:10  <xiong> That's what I get for cargo-cult coding. Guess Frenchy left it off, too.
07:49:28  <planetmaker> xiong: yes. Then it won't compile (anymore) ;-)
07:49:45  <planetmaker> peter1138: the source is available. And it's nfo
07:49:50  <xiong> I may have chosen a bad version of the frenchtowns file.
07:49:55  <xiong> Fixed. Anything else?
07:50:24  <peter1138> It is NFO, eh?
07:50:25  <planetmaker> and
07:50:51  <dihedral> xiong, you pleasantly surprised me
07:51:33  <xiong> dihedral, I'm glad. But why?
07:51:37  <planetmaker> well, the source is more files, you can obtain it via hg checkout from the devzone
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07:51:47  <planetmaker> xiong: does it compile?
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07:52:27  <dihedral> xiong, you have produced something we can look at for the first time
07:52:27  <xiong> I have no way of knowing, planetmaker. I suppose I can fool around with it. But I suspect I don't have enough files. Let me see.
07:52:49  <dihedral> planetmaker, online grf compiler :-D
07:52:57  <dihedral> upload your source, download the grf :-D
07:53:27  <planetmaker> xiong: install NML and its dependencies and test...
07:54:43  <planetmaker> namely python, python-imaging and PLY
07:54:45  <xiong> Did.
07:54:52  <planetmaker> so?
07:54:58  <xiong> Minor error; searching.
07:55:04  <planetmaker> what's the result?
07:55:25  <xiong> Ah. Missing leading slash on first byte of ID.
07:56:00  <dihedral> i hope it's a unique id
07:56:42  <xiong> The dummies are dropped as expected, although a warning is emitted for each. The remaining error, predictably, is "Unknown string: STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_PENNSYLVANIA".
07:58:41  <xiong> dihedral, With all respect, not true. I spent quite a bit of time on bigsig 001 and 002, even though they were both extremely bad.
08:00:25  <dihedral> i see no grf
08:00:28  <xiong> I dislike intensely braggarts and so, I'm afraid, I'm no good at advertising myself. But there is stuff online of mine, if you would like me to link to it.
08:01:33  <dihedral> xiong, if you do not show productive work, nobody can tell there is any ;-)
08:01:37  <xiong> There is no bigsig .grf because there is no bigsig .png, because we fell into some sort of conversational black hole on the subject. I don't know why; I'm not sure it matters any longer.
08:01:49  <dihedral> so to me it looked like you were asking a bunch of questions with no outcome
08:02:05  <dihedral> so what do you call bigsig 001 and 002 then?
08:02:17  <KouDy> anyone using 32pp?
08:02:42  <xiong> Mm. Well, I'm familiar with all-talk people. I will link you to just one thing I have done and leave it at that. It has nothing to do with OpenTTD but it represents quite a bit of real work.
08:02:55  <dihedral> ...
08:03:07  <planetmaker> KouDy: sure. But that's not your real question.
08:03:14  <dihedral> xiong, i want to see OpenTTD work - show me what you refer to as bigsig 001 and 002
08:03:26  <planetmaker> dihedral: please...
08:03:27  <xiong>
08:03:48  <xiong> Look at that first. I have done almost nothing in OpenTTD, because I don't know anything about it.
08:03:50  <KouDy> planetmaker: i was just wondering what way you do sprites, the big tar pack or the many tars (meaning you DLed lot's of files there)
08:04:08  <dihedral> xiong, you just refered to bigsig 001 and 002
08:04:17  <planetmaker> KouDy: tar is just an archive, similar to zip, just not compressed
08:04:19  <Rubidium> no, I use 64bpp
08:04:19  <dihedral> so now i am curious and would like to know what 001 and 002 is
08:04:33  <planetmaker> you could even add the single png files
08:04:33  <KouDy> yea i know that
08:04:46  <planetmaker> you just need to make sure they're in the proper folders
08:04:47  <xiong> They are tiny little sketches -- concepts of what bigsig might look like.
08:04:51  <planetmaker> and appropriately named
08:05:08  <dihedral> xiong, it's a start - what are they?
08:05:10  <xiong> I have posted both here. They both stunk, very badly, for a couple of reasons.
08:05:24  <xiong> Look at pi-unrolled first, please.
08:05:27  <dihedral> you mean those 2 images in the forums?
08:05:32  <KouDy> planetmaker: and naming stuff goes for png files inside the sprites folder or for tars themselves
08:05:33  <KouDy> ?
08:05:44  <dihedral> sorry - but i fail to consider the second especially to be productive work!
08:06:07  <dihedral> unless you manage to specify some relevance with regards to signals
08:06:12  <planetmaker> KouDy: whether inside a tar or not: the name and folder structure needs to fit the sprite it wants to replace
08:06:22  <dihedral> which you claimed was highly relevant, but never expressed in any way what and why
08:06:28  <xiong> dihedral, You've put me in the position of trying to justify myself as a productive person. Fine. I show you finished work. Please accept that and go look.
08:06:32  <planetmaker> the tar name itself doesn't matter IIRC
08:06:50  <dihedral> xiong, it's yet another image
08:07:18  <xiong> Yes, it is -- an animated GIF, to be precise.
08:07:25  <dihedral> none the less, i am happy for the first grf stuff you have presented :-)
08:08:00  <xiong> Here's a link to the work itself: ( The first link should tell you something of the popularity of the work.
08:08:12  <dihedral> that is exactly the kind of stuff i wanted to see from you <- the grf thing
08:08:29  <KouDy> yea that's what i mean, but then i'd assume folks coding this would be naming in sprites accordingly (i mean they look for replacing something, so they would use it's name as default)
08:08:46  <xiong> I would rather you said that you saw pi-unrolled, that you saw it was a complete work, that considerable time went into it, and others accepted it as outstanding.
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08:09:09  <dihedral> xiong, no i will not post that in the forums :-P
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08:09:54  <dihedral> it's an animated gif to demonstrate pi with circles
08:10:02  <xiong> Then, perhaps you see why I don't like to talk about myself or try to prove myself to anyone. Either a person will extend me the courtesy of presuming I'm a serious person, or he will not. I can't change that.
08:11:24  <dihedral> you ask tons of questions - no, sorry - you ask ONE question over and over for hours, show no related results / outcome that others could consider to be productive, and expect others to be astonished?
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08:11:42  <xiong> Must we talk about this?
08:12:10  <dihedral> out of that, i can say, i am happy to see the grf related work you have pasted :-)
08:12:36  <dihedral> that work is something i have hoped you would come forward with
08:12:40  <dihedral> :-)
08:12:44  <xiong> planetmaker, So far as I can see, the file is complete. What next?
08:13:11  <planetmaker> does it compile?
08:13:17  <dihedral> then sell it? :-D
08:13:20  <planetmaker> if it compiles: does it work ingame?
08:13:23  <xiong> I'm sorry; I thought I answered that.
08:13:38  <xiong> The dummies are dropped as expected, although a warning is emitted for each. The remaining error, predictably, is "Unknown string: STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_PENNSYLVANIA".
08:13:47  <andythenorth_> xiong: is your native language?
08:14:13  <andythenorth_> English? (sorry, mistyped :P )
08:14:17  <planetmaker> xiong: obviously you didn't create a language file, put it in the wrong place or didn't define that string therein.
08:14:20  <planetmaker> change that
08:14:43  <xiong> andythenorth_, Please; what do you hope to gain? I'm very different from you. I'm aware of this. I don't want to be rude and especially I dislike getting dragged into discussions of why I'm not like you.
08:14:56  <andythenorth_> xiong: I'm just interested
08:14:59  <xiong> I promise you, I'm a very gentle and kind person and mean no harm to anyone.
08:15:40  <xiong> andythenorth_, I'm a purely technical person. I have no interest in personalities, not even in my own. Sorry.
08:15:43  <andythenorth_> :)
08:15:58  <andythenorth_> I am more the opposite
08:16:09  <planetmaker> :-D
08:16:24  <planetmaker> you do quite technical stuff for that statement, andythenorth_ :-)
08:16:30  <xiong> planetmaker, This is where we left off about 8 hours ago. I cannot locate the frenchtowns .lng file.
08:17:06  <planetmaker> the project has multiple *.lng files in the lang dir
08:17:30  <andythenorth_> I'm not allowed to remove any more cargos from vanilla FIRS, right?
08:17:40  <planetmaker> you want a copy of english.lng
08:17:47  <planetmaker> and adopt it to your needs
08:17:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: I won't bite you :-P
08:18:08  <planetmaker> but what needs to be shaved off?
08:18:13  <andythenorth_> not sure anything does
08:18:24  <andythenorth_> might turn out to be a problem with a different root cause
08:18:35  <andythenorth_> farm cargoes
08:18:40  <planetmaker> xiong:
08:18:52  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:18:56  <andythenorth_> seems like there are too many, and they mostly only go to food
08:19:12  <andythenorth_> adding fibre crops has helped show the real problem with other farm cargos
08:19:41  <andythenorth_> in my current game I am not transporting milk or sugar at all (yet)
08:19:57  <andythenorth_> on the other hand I've been playing for 110 years and still haven't completed all cargo chains
08:20:17  <andythenorth_> maintaining interest for a long game was a design goal for FIRS, so that kind of works
08:20:35  <andythenorth_> i.e. I still have some interesting new routes to build
08:21:00  <xiong> planetmaker, That's not working. That's not a link to a file. I cannot see how to drill down to a file; all attempts end in "The entry or revision was not found in the repository."
08:21:11  <xiong> Surely this cannot be so difficult?
08:21:50  <planetmaker> could be my words ;-)
08:22:03  <dihedral> xiong, just out of curiosity - will you continue with the bigsig project?
08:22:11  <planetmaker> :-(
08:23:18  <xiong> dihedral, I annoy you. I'm sorry about that. I can see I will continue to annoy you every time I speak. I can't change that. So, it might be best if I didn't speak to you. I don't intend any offense, although I expect you to feel I do. I really do not.
08:23:28  <planetmaker> xiong: <-- a language file looks similar to that
08:24:19  <xiong> planetmaker, Great. Should I fool with the lang: 7F line or leave it?
08:24:32  <planetmaker> xiong: please try to interpret not every comment as questioning of what you do or don't do.
08:24:33  <dihedral> xiong, i am actually not trying to pick on you
08:24:37  <planetmaker> 7F line needs to stay
08:24:44  <planetmaker> it indicates the language in that file
08:24:50  <xiong> Great. Let me fool with the file.
08:24:56  <planetmaker> which in case of 7F means default=British English
08:24:56  <dihedral> else i would not have mentioned that the grf you are working on is just what i was hoping to see
08:25:03  <KouDy> well i had fixed some more of stuff, but need to take break... brain refuses to work so soon on saturday
08:25:13  <dihedral> personally i think you are heading a good direction
08:26:12  <xiong> Okay, well. This is Pennsylvania; I hope to get it into US English.
08:26:37  <xiong> English (US)
08:27:17  <xiong> 80?
08:27:29  <planetmaker> you need to supply a default language, British English file
08:27:35  <xiong> Should this file be called anything in particular?
08:27:39  <planetmaker> all other languages are optional
08:27:55  <planetmaker> it should have the extenstion lng
08:28:01  <planetmaker> and be in the lang folder
08:28:03  <planetmaker> that's all
08:28:20  <planetmaker> name it sensibly, makes it easier, if you have more languages
08:28:54  <planetmaker> or how shall _I_ know whether something is traditional or simplified Chinese, speaking neither of the two?
08:29:09  <planetmaker> assuming i have files for both languages, only called 01.lng and 02.lng
08:30:55  <xiong> Well. Again, for English(US), should I change that to lang: 80?
08:31:55  <Rubidium> planetmaker: 7F isn't British English, it's what is used when nothing appropriate is set
08:32:27  <xiong> Rubidium, Then I don't need to create multiple .lng files; one is sufficient. Yes?
08:32:51  <Rubidium> e.g. if you make it French and use 00 for American and 01 for English (UK) you will get a different translation for American, English and "the rest"
08:33:31  <planetmaker> Well, yes. 7F is fallback. But OpenTTD's default is British English, as such newgrf should follow that convention, too ;-)
08:33:42  <xiong> In any case, I have compiled again. I still get the warnings about the dummy lines. I don't see a rational justification for them except to eliminate the preceding trailing comma. Is it okay to delete them?
08:34:11  <planetmaker> probably.
08:34:45  <xiong> I mean, I don't know python. In Perl, it's legitimate to construct a list with a trailing comma; it doesn't do anything weird.
08:36:36  <Rubidium> but NML isn't Python, it's written in Python but that doesn't mean it is Python
08:36:37  <xiong> Great. Now nmlc runs without any STDOUT/STDERR at all.
08:37:04  <xiong> Rubidium, That's why I ask. I'm very short on presumption.
08:39:19  <xiong> Okay, planetmaker. Now that I have a .grf file, I want to test it. I keep seeing explanations of how to do this by putting it in ~/.openttd but the descriptions don't seem to make much sense. Should I just throw the files in there loose?
08:40:57  <planetmaker> in ~/.openttd/data
08:40:59  <planetmaker> yes
08:41:42  * xiong tries
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08:48:27  <xiong>
08:49:16  <dihedral> xiong, congratulations :-)
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08:50:14  <dihedral> now _that_ is what i'd call productive work :-)
08:50:45  <planetmaker> indeed :-)
08:51:50  * Rubidium sees one problem though
08:52:02  <Rubidium> it should be "State population" :)
08:52:09  <planetmaker> :-D
08:52:25  <__ln__> indeed
08:52:34  <planetmaker> xiong: now, you should share this grf with others. :-)
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08:53:06  <planetmaker> And as you've re-used the FrenchTownNames NewGRF, the license was already chosen for you: GPL v2 :-)
08:53:46  * Rubidium wonders what "usually associated with other places" in the source means; I associate at least Lancaster, Plymouth, Reading and York with the UK
08:54:11  <dihedral> :-P
08:54:14  <xiong> I didn't see a place for licensing. It's not of much interest to me.
08:54:36  <dihedral> it sadly is quite important
08:54:44  <planetmaker> the license matters and needs to be included as soon as you publish somewhere this newgrf
08:55:10  <planetmaker> by adding proper credits and the license file itself.
08:55:20  <dihedral> it can define if others are allowed to distribute it / share it etc.
08:55:20  <planetmaker> (both simple txt files)
08:55:22  <xiong> Well, planetmaker, the fact is that everyone in US came from another place. The first settlers were happy enough to invent their own languages and names for things. Those of us who came later tended to take place names from the old country or steal them from the locals.
08:55:30  <dihedral> or if others may use your work to understand how it works
08:56:20  <planetmaker> (basically the same way you did with FrenchTowns)
08:56:49  * andythenorth_ has FIRS addiction
08:57:01  <dihedral> i think that first grf is something to be proud of :-)
08:57:02  <andythenorth_> and not in the coding sense for once :P
08:57:21  <xiong> Do you mean a README.txt file?
08:58:20  <planetmaker> yes
08:58:39  <dihedral> and a COPYING.txt file :-)
08:58:54  <planetmaker> better keep a readme.txt and a license.txt
08:59:00  <planetmaker> that's easily also uploaded to bananas
08:59:16  <planetmaker> but maybe it accepts also COPYING.txt
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09:03:11  <xiong> planetmaker, Following Frenchy is not working for me. He doesn't seem to be real sharp around the corners.
09:03:19  * andythenorth_ has a puzzle and needs helps :P
09:03:28  <andythenorth_> FIRS farms
09:03:45  <andythenorth_> (1) I allowed them to build on slopes (which looks neat)
09:03:50  <planetmaker> your sentence doesn't parse for me, xiong
09:03:54  <xiong> This whole job would have been much, much easier if one could point the dev in the direction of a 'blank town names' tarball.
09:04:06  <andythenorth_> (2) farms mostly have one input and two output cargo
09:04:14  <planetmaker> there's no blank one.
09:04:23  <andythenorth_> that demands three roadstops, with extra room for queuing
09:04:29  <planetmaker> And you refused to get a repository checkout
09:04:35  <andythenorth_> and they have to mostly be drive-through roadstops
09:04:57  <andythenorth_> this makes serving farms on hilly terrain very hard :o
09:05:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: two can be enough :-)
09:05:09  <andythenorth_> how so?
09:05:16  <xiong> My VCS is Git. It would take me another half a day to download, set up, and figure out another.
09:05:18  <andythenorth_> for trains maybe
09:05:21  <xiong> What's wanted is a tarball.
09:05:44  <xiong> ... which I think will be my next project.
09:08:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r20941 /trunk/readme.txt: -Fix [FS#4163]: Readme referred to outdated behaviour
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09:10:10  <andythenorth_> I could limit farm production further
09:10:17  <andythenorth_> I could rearrange farm layouts
09:10:26  <andythenorth_> I could only use non-articulated RVs :P
09:10:28  <dihedral> yeah, move the cows a little to the left
09:10:30  <planetmaker> do they need more limiting?
09:10:49  <andythenorth_> I think it's the wrong solution
09:10:58  <andythenorth_> I'm just thinking (out loud) of options
09:11:27  <andythenorth_> I could prevent building on slopes
09:12:19  <andythenorth_> I could terraform a lot
09:12:34  <andythenorth_> one side effect of FIRS is that it often limits terraforming
09:13:06  <andythenorth_> there are plenty of industries that don't allow slope changing around them
09:13:15  <planetmaker> oh, farms on slopes are lovely!
09:13:55  <xiong> Okay, well, planetmaker, all this social interaction has given me a whopping headache; I'm about to bust. How about I send you what I've got? I'll tarball it up and you can do with it as you like.
09:13:59  <planetmaker> in my holiday in the Norwegian fjords I saw farms in places I never believed them possible. So yes: farms on slopes are possible :-)
09:14:58  <planetmaker> xiong: why don't you just copy license.txt from the FrenchTowns and edit the readme.txt accordingly?
09:15:28  <andythenorth_> planetmaker agreed they are lovely :) so help me figure out how to make building stations at these farms ~10% less frustrating :P
09:15:28  <planetmaker> I mean... if you got a grf you're basically done
09:15:39  <andythenorth_> some frustration is good
09:15:39  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: not at all
09:15:50  <planetmaker> that's the challenge which makes the game fun
09:16:22  <xiong> planetmaker, As I said... no license.txt. Anyway, I'm quite serious; I'm beat. And I *am* done, so far as getting PA towns into my own game.
09:16:24  <andythenorth_> someone patched for RV stops on slopes a while ago
09:16:32  <andythenorth_> (drivethrough)
09:16:53  <planetmaker> wolf, yes
09:16:59  <andythenorth_> articulated RVs in normal road stops is never going to happen yes / no?
09:17:01  <xiong> Pick whatever license suits you. I've always been fond of CC-BY-2.0 myself, but GPL is okay too.
09:17:20  <planetmaker> you need to chose GPL
09:17:29  <planetmaker> as you modified a GPL-licensed grf
09:17:50  <planetmaker> once GPL, always GPL - unless you get express permission to re-license things from the original authors
09:18:20  <xiong> I can't believe we're having this discussion.
09:18:33  <xiong> I say, the issue is unimportant to me.
09:18:41  <xiong> You say, mine is a derivative work.
09:18:57  <planetmaker> Did you use FrenchTownNames source? yes/no?
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09:19:10  <xiong> Well, no, it's not. True, I looked at frenchtowns to construct it but there's nothing left of the original.
09:19:18  <xiong> You can't copyright a {
09:19:36  <xiong> If you pull a diff, everything has changed except the blank lines.
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09:20:08  <KouDy> reading and thinking why this error happens
09:20:31  <xiong> penntowns resembles frenchtowns in the same way that every town name file *must* resemble one another.
09:20:41  <KouDy> since below i also have split station with 2x2 waypoints (around refinery)
09:21:22  <xiong> But, this is, to me, kinda a fruitless discussion. Let's say I stole frenchtowns outright and didn't change a thing.
09:21:41  <dihedral> <planetmaker> you need to chose GPL <- which kind of defeats the word 'chose'
09:22:13  <planetmaker> "you can chose any colour for your car as long as it's black"
09:22:22  <dihedral> :-D
09:22:24  <xiong> So, now I have a 6 Kb tarball, including .nml, .grf, and lang/.lng -- where do you want it?
09:23:08  <Zuu_> bananas? or is bananas source-less?
09:23:20  <planetmaker> usually grfs are presented in the graphics sub-form. And the grf uploaded to bananas as well
09:23:26  <xiong> Zuu_, This is just from me to planetmaker.
09:23:47  <xiong> Zuu_, Not ready for prime time.
09:23:55  <planetmaker> why not?
09:24:25  <xiong> If you pick a place, I will put it there. Otherwise, I will put it somewhere.
09:25:08  * dihedral implants "own will" into xiong
09:25:12  <xiong> I'm serious about the splitting headache. Tomorrow I will get up and start in on the laundry. It may be a week before I get back to trains; I may never.
09:25:30  <xiong> So, please, just pick a place.
09:25:38  <xiong> From here on, it's your show.
09:25:40  <dihedral> WE are not dependant an YOU ;-)
09:25:44  <dihedral> rule 1 :_P
09:26:08  <xiong> dihedral, Do you not understand how this is a one-on-one convo?
09:26:26  <dihedral> OpenTTD is going to continue even if a bunch of people in the channel never play it again, never return again ....
09:26:42  <planetmaker> xiong: I can only repeat myself: publish it properly in the graphics development section and upload the grf to bananas
09:26:51  <dihedral> xiong, you do not understand that you are in a public channel filled with 100 odd people
09:26:54  <dihedral> and bots
09:26:56  <planetmaker> that's what I'd do
09:27:01  <xiong> *sigh* Look, I hate to do this, dihedral, but I don't want to get into a fight with you. Sorry.
09:27:18  <dihedral> and i do not give shit if i am on your ignore list ;-)
09:27:25  <dihedral> sorry for the word "ignore list"
09:27:27  <planetmaker> xiong: if consider other people's comments irrelevant, just ignore them instead of bitching around. Much nicer then
09:27:39  <xiong> Yah, planetmaker, that's what I did.
09:28:03  <dihedral> though it will not get to the roots of the isse :-P
09:28:06  <dihedral> *issue
09:28:29  <xiong> Please understand I'm all in and all up. I would like to give this to you. It is a gift; you can do with it as you like. Please let me finish this.
09:28:32  * andythenorth_ decides that using distant-join to build adjacent stations isn't actually cheating :P
09:28:43  <andythenorth_> no more stupid waypoint building
09:29:31  <planetmaker> xiong: you DID finish it. You are the author. YOU should publish it.
09:29:37  <planetmaker> I did nothing for that newgrf
09:29:42  <dihedral> xiong, if you want to give it to someone, post it to the forums
09:30:08  <xiong> Okay, well then. I value your contributions enough that I've credited you as co-author.
09:30:17  <dihedral> and possibly bananas, though that will probably take another few days before you manage to mangle your way through the upload process :-P
09:30:20  <xiong> You aren't interested in seeing it.
09:30:26  <andythenorth_> build a road over a stupidly big hill, or terraform?
09:30:32  <xiong> I've done all I have to do to make it work on my machine.
09:30:41  <xiong> So, I'm done.
09:30:46  <xiong> Have a good night.
09:30:52  <dihedral> andythenorth_, terraforming is uglyl
09:30:56  <dihedral> go with the terrain ;-)
09:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: tunnel? around?
09:31:18  <dihedral> and possibly find out if it may not be faster if you go around rather than over
09:31:22  <dihedral> yes, or through :-P
09:31:50  <planetmaker> xiong: who says I'm not interested in it?
09:31:58  <planetmaker> Your screenshot suggests it works. So...?
09:32:39  <xiong> planetmaker, It's up to you. You want me to do this, do that. I told you, very simply, you can have it. Will you accept a DCC?
09:32:52  * planetmaker really wonders how from the word "please publish it" the concluse 'not interested' can be drawn... :-(
09:32:59  <andythenorth_>
09:33:07  <planetmaker> my bouncer doesn't accept dcc. Send it via forum mail
09:33:12  <andythenorth_> I need to build from the bridge to the dairy bottom left
09:33:24  <xiong> No, I'm not going to publish it. You publish it. I've reached the limit of my ability, my patience, and my tolerance for pain.
09:33:28  <andythenorth_> probably the best thing is to relocate Shiverwood Transfer and go around the hill
09:33:41  <planetmaker> ...
09:34:10  <andythenorth_> I could go over the hill easy, but it's a big ascent/descent
09:34:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is you can't dig cliffs...
09:35:10  <andythenorth_> yup
09:35:43  <andythenorth_> that's not going to happen :)
09:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and are the road vehicles supposed to have a white frame? :p
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09:36:43  <planetmaker> when in an image frame on the wall: yes ;-)
09:36:50  <planetmaker> anyway... catch you later
09:38:09  <andythenorth_> sorted
09:38:23  <xiong> planetmaker, Sent.
09:38:59  <xiong> Now, please excuse me; I really have hit my absolute limit for society of any kind. I don't want to shut off my machine, though.
09:39:00  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: the white borders are HEQS nightly :P
09:39:19  <andythenorth_> I am working (slowly) on making RV templates based on Pikka's train templates
09:39:24  <andythenorth_> it's very dull work though :|
09:39:27  <dihedral> my word - i thought he was getting there
09:39:48  <dihedral> i have never ever met someone like this
09:40:07  <andythenorth_> I know someone a bit like it
09:40:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: the "version" field is still missing from the GRF Block description, you only added it in the introduction
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09:48:56  <Zuu> Hmm, walking away with the phone is not a good idea when you use it for internet connection ^^
09:51:04  <KouDy> how much setting max station spread affects performance?
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09:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> KouDy: we don't really know. the algorithm has changed a lot since the warnign was placed there
09:52:18  <KouDy> i see
09:52:49  <KouDy> and also ... what is that can"t build station here, adjoins more than one area error?
09:53:16  <KouDy> i'm trying like everything and can't figure out how to build waypoint or extend station
09:53:22  <Zuu> Hold ctrl while building
09:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... what do i do when "*.pcx: Palette is not recognized as a valid palette." appears, but i thought i edited an image that came from grfcodec?
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09:54:37  <KouDy> oooooh... when i create "split" station i have to hold ctrl everytime ever since then
09:54:39  <KouDy> okaaaay
09:54:49  <KouDy> is this written somewhere? O.o
09:55:24  <Zuu> If you want to make a separate station next to an adjacent station, you need to hold ctrl.
09:55:38  <Zuu> The same goes for joining with a distant station
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09:56:17  <Zuu> It is probably documented *somewhere* at the wiki.
09:56:44  <KouDy> oh maybe i was reading wrong section of wiki... let's see
09:57:51  <KouDy>
09:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if you think something's missing from the wiki, please add it
09:58:58  <KouDy> sure i can add it, just making sure it's not really there already
10:02:31  <KouDy> If you need to extend adjacent station you have already created, you have to hold Ctrl all the time for any part of that particular station.
10:02:40  <KouDy> does it make sense?
10:02:56  <KouDy> it does to me but i am the one who made up that sentence :)
10:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> grr.... i don't find the palette options in gimp...
10:05:29  <KouDy> tho i just run completely new game and tried to replicate this
10:05:56  <KouDy> oh wait
10:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it says "Indexed (256 Colours)", and i can't figure out what's wrong
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10:18:40  <KouDy>
10:19:14  <KouDy> ok i have added last sentense in non-physically attached stations section, please someone read it and tell me if it's understandable
10:20:07  <V453000> we usually use "walked" or "distant join stations" :)
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10:21:54  <KouDy> okaaaay... so what part of that should i change? because i'm not using anything like that...
10:23:32  <V453000> I would just replace your term "non-physi..." with either of those :)
10:25:42  <KouDy> i have added only this sentence
10:25:43  <KouDy> You also have to hold Ctrl when extending any part of that station and  new extension is physically adjacent to any part of that station.
10:26:01  <KouDy> i'm sorry for being slow but i still don't get it
10:26:11  <KouDy> oh ahaaa
10:26:15  <KouDy> name of the section :)
10:26:23  <KouDy> oh that was already there like this
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10:30:10  <KouDy> so i would rather not change it (as the term is very clear as it is now for me at least)
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10:53:40  <dihedral> oh dear lord!
10:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand that sentence at all
10:54:14  <dihedral> a mother called the police saying she missed her son - later on they found him on a camp.... the mother forgot he was on a school vacation trip
10:55:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... now i managed to compile the grf. the vehicle shows up in the buy list, but not the graphics for it...
10:55:56  <Eddi|zuHause> weird...
10:56:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: wrong offsets?
10:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, it just shows a default engine
10:57:28  <planetmaker> Then you didn't define graphics and just added action0 to an exisiting engine?
10:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ahh... better
11:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> had to instert "sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN;"
11:00:14  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever that means
11:00:18  <planetmaker> yes
11:00:24  <planetmaker> it means that you define graphics :-)
11:00:32  <planetmaker> and not re-use old
11:03:01  <Eddi|zuHause> next: how do i define it's a wagon?
11:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and second next: how do i make it articulated [3 parts]?
11:06:54  <KouDy> you don't mhmmm
11:06:55  <planetmaker> I didn't do that yet, myself.
11:07:02  <KouDy> ok i will think how to re-phrase then
11:07:09  <planetmaker> you'll need to use some callback, VEH_CB_ARTICULATED_PART
11:07:19  <planetmaker> and define the other parts as vehicles on their own
11:07:24  <planetmaker> and set the proper vehicle flag
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11:19:05  <Eddi|zuHause> how would i translate an expression like "-1 * 0 0D 9E 08 9E FF 08 00 00 00" to NML?
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11:20:18  <planetmaker> that's some parameter setting, right?
11:21:09  <planetmaker> care to explain instead of me having look up the exact byte sequence? :-)
11:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it's supposed to set 32px vehicles
11:21:53  <Eddi|zuHause> in depot view
11:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
11:22:06  <planetmaker> ah... I'll need that, too :-)
11:27:02  <planetmaker> I'll have to dig myself. I'll have to put that off till tonight
11:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's lacking a list of "FEAT_*"
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11:28:31  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it probably would be nice, if you could compile a list of missing things. Both real and from documentation :-)
11:28:47  <planetmaker> Just along the way you go with your set :-)
11:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ideally there would be a tutorial for new people, and one for NFO-converts
11:34:13  * andythenorth_ can't bridge over stations :(
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11:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i know he-who-has-patches-for-it once had a patch for that
11:35:01  <andythenorth_> screw it, I'll just use helicopters :)
11:35:19  <andythenorth_> encouraging RV use is all well and good, but I don't have space to build sane routes
11:35:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: ideally that'd be true.
11:35:49  <planetmaker> In parts you find things in the regression tests
11:35:56  <planetmaker> In parts in existing NewGRFs.
11:36:12  <planetmaker> But still... the reference is even if those were included not complete
11:38:37  <planetmaker> we try to get all important pieces in the reference manual... but as usual :-)
11:39:02  <planetmaker> "aus den Augen aus dem Sinn" ;-)
11:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> param[0x9E]=8; <-- this seems to have worked
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11:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> is the "introduction_date" property automatically converted to "long" if the range is outside of 1920..2090?
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11:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/ply/ DeprecationWarning: the md5 module is deprecated; use hashlib instead <-- anybody know how i can get rid of this?
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12:06:09  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I think only the 'long' intro date is set
12:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that should probably clarified in reference.html
12:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> *be
12:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so: list of reference.html negligences: "version" in "GRF block" description, "long" introduction date clarification, "misc grf features (9E)" parameter
12:09:08  <Hirundo> is the long/non-long intro date of interest to those who don't know nfo?
12:10:08  <Hirundo> Version documentation is already done, I'll look into 9E
12:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: but it could mention "valid range: year 0 to year 5.000.000"
12:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: yexo added version into the introduction, but not into the grf block description
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12:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> another thing that is not clear in reference.html: "switch (<expression>, (SELF|PARENT), <ID>, <expression>) {" <-- what's the meaning of the two expressions?
12:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and can "unnamed" switches be used, if they are nested?
12:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and can "if" be used if there is only one range?
12:31:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly introduce a "default" range instead of just a lingering value at the end
12:32:01  <Hirundo> first expression is the feature, second is the expression to evaluate
12:32:46  <Hirundo> I plan to support functions that contain if/else, switch, assignments and combinations thereof, but that won't happen in version 0.1.0
12:34:31  <Hirundo> unnamed switches  and if statements are not possible, 'default' instead of a 'lingering value' are a good suggestion
12:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... you don't allow "e" in float numbers?
12:43:01  * andythenorth_ ponders return of 'survey camp' to FIRS
12:43:20  <andythenorth_> I want to use primary prospecting, but with some influence over which area of map to prospect in
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12:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: what about: "80% of all prospectings fail if there is not a similar industry nearby"?
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12:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... how do i read "variable 10 (extra callback info 1)" in a switch?
12:47:42  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: ^^ sounds a bit like existing clustering
12:47:51  <andythenorth_> useful, but not quite the intended effect
12:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: so, what's wrong with that?
12:48:02  <andythenorth_> nothing
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12:48:26  <andythenorth_> I'd just like to be able to prospect for industry types in areas of map that don't have any yet
12:48:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: that's why it's not 100%
12:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the chance is just lower
12:48:57  <andythenorth_> ah
12:49:17  <andythenorth_> but that still leaves all of the rest of the map as a potential 20% location?
12:49:19  <davis> good day to you!
12:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: value may be subject to tweaking
12:49:39  <andythenorth_> I want to control to say, 80 tile radius of a certain point
12:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause>     'extra_callback_info1' : {'var': 0x10, 'start': 0, 'size': 32}, <-- that seems to be what i search
12:54:39  <azaghal> If the line of water is moved a bit in sub tropical desert, does it affect the type of land? (i.e. extending the grass to desert)
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12:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: how about a "callbacks" block, so people don't have to put a switch into the "graphics" block except for switching graphics? [which i always found counterintuitive]
12:57:06  <Hirundo> It's on the feature list, except that callbacks will probably not get a separate block for technical reasons
12:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so the nml compiler would automatically generate a switch to weed out the callbacks
12:57:18  <Hirundo> Exactly^
12:57:28  <Hirundo> Any suggestions for a name that covers both graphics and callbacks?
12:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea, i'd prefer separate callback block...
12:58:27  <Hirundo> The technical reason is that defining graphics and callbacks in a separate location and/or conditionally is a major headache
12:59:19  <Eddi|zuHause> callbacks and graphics block both generate an action 2, and if both are present, you generate an additional action 2
12:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the technical difficulty, maybe you can explain it to me?
12:59:49  <Hirundo> The problem isn't action2 but the action3 that refers to them
13:00:00  <Hirundo> You can only define one action3 for a single vehicle
13:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but by the time you write the action3, you already know which action2 was the last one
13:01:09  <Hirundo> Remember that it's possible to skip certain blocks/definitions
13:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> inside an item block?
13:02:56  <Hirundo> Currently yes
13:03:03  <Hirundo> But even this causes problems:
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13:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think this is solvable, but might need clear thoughts...
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13:13:18  <Hirundo> Remember that in some cases (stations), it is necessary to use action3 for cargo selection, unlike vehicles where you can use var 47
13:14:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20942 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Feature [NewGRF]: make it possible to distinguish player built/randomly placed industries in the location and land slope check callbacks
13:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... i can't figure out what to return in articulated vehicle callback. it's supposed to be "the id of the next wagon" (is that what i write in the item(...)??) or 0xFF [what if i have more than 0x3F vehicle ids?]
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13:26:41  <Hirundo> You should return the ID of the item (vehicle) you want to attach, or 0xFF if there is none
13:26:51  <Hirundo> you can use the name of the item to refer to it
13:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the name of the item doesn't seem to work
13:30:08  <Eddi|zuHause> says "Referencing unknown action2 id:"
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13:30:23  <Hirundo> do you use 'return $name' ?
13:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> probably because the item is defined later...
13:32:05  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no... that doesn't work either
13:32:17  <andythenorth_> keeping up with 2 FIRS coal mines at max production is hard with UKRS 2
13:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: yes, i use "item(FEAT_TRAIN, wagon)" and in the callback: "return wagon;"
13:33:52  * andythenorth_ abandons trains in favour of ships :P
13:34:01  <Hirundo> I think I know what's wrong (missing feature in NML), I'll look at it shortly
13:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so... workaround?
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13:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... you ever tried to sell an invisible wagon??
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13:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the mouse cursor takes on the sprite of the wagon, so it turns invisible
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13:43:13  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: workaround: read out 'wagon' inside the switch-expression and use 'return;' to return that expression
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13:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> *next*: figure out why it does only 2 articulated parts instead of 3...
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13:46:45  <frosch123> damn, north and south got swapped
13:47:07  <SmatZ> :(
13:47:30  <frosch123> :p
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14:01:11  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: welcome to australia :p
14:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> hypothetical question: how would i use articulated vehicle callback if my vehicle id is 0xFF?
14:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or: how do i distinguish a vehicle 0xF0 from vehicle 0x70 reversed (+0x80)?
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14:05:54  <Hirundo> You can't :(
14:05:59  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: long standing problem. articulated parts need to use ids < 90
14:06:02  <frosch123> 80 :)
14:06:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but i can't exactly enforce the ID in nfo
14:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> err
14:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nml
14:06:39  <Hirundo> it's something the elusive nfo version 8 has to fix
14:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> can't it be "fixed" by just introducing another callback?
14:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> or a misc flag "use improved articulated callback"?
14:08:37  <frosch123> there are many ways to make it even more messy :p
14:08:52  <Hirundo> nfo already has too many 'special flags' :)
14:09:19  <Hirundo> A simple 9E bit won't work for TTDP, as 9E is common to all grfs
14:09:42  <frosch123> not exactly
14:09:58  <frosch123> there is at least one grf-specific bit in ttdp, and some more in ottd
14:10:42  <frosch123> s/some/one/
14:10:58  <Hirundo> which bit is grf-specific in TTDP?
14:11:39  <frosch123> 31	80000000	Only to be set by ttdpbase(w).grf for identification <- not that useful though :p
14:11:40  <Hirundo> In ottd, only the train width and desert roads bits are supported, only the former being per-grf
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14:14:34  <Eddi|zuHause> next... how do i fix offset in depot view, after offset on track has been aligned?
14:15:01  <Hirundo> horizontal or vertical offset?
14:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> vertical
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14:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> something else: when moving an articulated vehicle in depot, it does not select the complete vehicle while dragging
14:19:01  <Hirundo> param[0x8E] = value; (there's no nicer way for that yet)
14:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that works.
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14:31:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so... who can i give a "under no circumstances distribute this" test grf so he can fix the dragging in depot?
14:32:37  <LaSeandre_> GRFs: continuous or starting kN?
14:32:40  <frosch123> did you port dbsetxl to nml?
14:32:49  <planetmaker> [16:08]	<Eddi|zuHause>	frosch123: but i can't exactly enforce the ID in nfo <-- but in the item definition you can IIRC item (FEAT_TRAINS, funny_name, 79) { ...}
14:34:33  <frosch123> LaSeandre_: Tracktive effort applies to normal operation. starting has slightly higher values
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14:34:44  <LaSeandre_> thanks.
14:36:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: err... close enough ;)
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14:38:00  <andythenorth_> would it be possible to modify articulated rv construction?
14:38:15  <frosch123> there is some magic value somewhere which makes sure all vehcile can accelerate to 1 km-ish/h
14:38:20  <andythenorth_> so that a lead vehicle could be refitted to arbitrary number of trailing vehicles?
14:39:26  <frosch123> andythenorth_: problem is, that the first user requests that you cn move trailers from one vehicle to another :p
14:39:38  <andythenorth_> hmm
14:39:43  <andythenorth_> as per trains
14:39:53  <andythenorth_> which isn't possible
14:40:12  <andythenorth_> the case is HEQS (and someday, BANDIT) - I have vehicles that can carry cargo, and could haul trailers
14:40:23  <andythenorth_> it's stupid to have in menu 'truck' and truck with n trailers'
14:40:26  <frosch123> so, for consistency i would rather add roadvehicle-wagons than adding special refitting
14:41:14  <andythenorth_> I could have 0-n trailers, and force all such vehicles to use drivethrough road stops
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14:45:24  <andythenorth_> frosch123: is it within realms of sanity to make roadvehicle-wagons?
14:47:32  <frosch123> i would expect vehicle movement and stuff would not have to change
14:47:47  <frosch123> newgrf stuff is the same for all vehicles anyway
14:48:04  <frosch123> so basically you need the train depot gui
14:48:32  <frosch123> and then a lot of stuff which has special behaviour for trains need to adapt for rv
14:48:38  <frosch123> like e.g. autoreplace
14:48:47  <frosch123> but without "wagon removal" and such
14:52:14  <andythenorth_> wonder if it would be good for gameplay?
14:52:25  <andythenorth_> it would make RV set design easier
14:52:34  <planetmaker> it would be consistent
14:53:47  <andythenorth_> shall we do it?
14:53:59  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: ^ :)
14:54:02  <Terkhen> it would make the realistic acceleration unification look as a single line patch in contrast :P
14:54:20  <Terkhen> it is scary, but I like the idea
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14:55:21  <[twisti]> morning everyone, im worried - i have a train cross section where two train lines cross - do i need to take precautions to prevent two from crashing ? if so, how ?
14:55:45  <peter1138> signals, or bridges
14:56:21  <[twisti]> damn, thats going to get tricky, both lanes are double wide, so i cant easily place signals 'in between'
14:56:48  <dihedral> then bridges and / or tunnels
14:56:53  <peter1138> um what
14:57:08  <[twisti]> nm my head was thinking in weird ways
14:57:14  <[twisti]> i think i actually got it covered already
14:57:20  <[twisti]> because all four lanes are one way lanes
14:57:23  <[twisti]> so they have signals anyways
14:57:24  <dihedral> your nick kinda states that already :-D
14:58:20  <andythenorth_> would the project be called 'roadvehicle-wagons'?
14:58:24  <[twisti]> theres one more weird thing going on
14:58:39  <[twisti]> i have a connection between a coal mine and a power plant
14:58:39  <Mortomes> [twisti]: If you ever want to get more trains on those tracks though, bridges/tunnels are a good idea, so the trains won't ever block each other
14:58:39  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: rather RV-rewrite ;-)
14:58:55  <andythenorth_> ok
14:58:55  <[twisti]> its pretty short, and i have two trains going back and forth
14:59:09  <andythenorth_> I've been playing the game solidly for two days now (for the first time in ages)
14:59:13  <[twisti]> and every time one leaves, the station is empty
14:59:27  <[twisti]> yet it keeps saying "transported last month 56%"
14:59:44  <dihedral> @seen Alberth
14:59:44  <DorpsGek> dihedral: Alberth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 5 hours, 17 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Alberth> planetmaker: thanks, will read it sunday, have to go now
14:59:48  <[twisti]> or 59 or stuff like that, but why isnt it 100% ?
14:59:58  <planetmaker> meh
15:00:01  <andythenorth_> I've only invented a small number of ponies, and I've set some ponies free :P
15:00:04  <dihedral> lol
15:00:12  <dihedral> pm thought of a nice highlight :-D
15:00:38  <planetmaker> what? my name?
15:00:50  <Terkhen> hmm... I wonder if allowing to refit parts of a consist should go before wagons for road vehicles
15:00:56  <[twisti]> anyone got any idea what the problem could be ?
15:01:04  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: what makes more sense code wise?
15:01:24  <andythenorth_> because wagons for rvs *would* allow refitting part of a consist by default
15:01:30  <Terkhen> I have no idea, besides the GUI I have never checked the refit /wagon code
15:01:33  <Hirundo> I'd tackle the refit issues first
15:01:56  <andythenorth_> partial refit is a lot of *new* stuff though?
15:02:11  <andythenorth_> rv wagons is copying same from trains
15:02:18  <andythenorth_> i.e. GUI already exists
15:02:18  <Terkhen> IIRC the problem for trains was supposedly GUI only, but I expect some problems to appear while development progresses
15:02:30  <andythenorth_> do we know how partial refits should work?
15:02:40  <andythenorth_> I just shuffle vehicles around to do it
15:02:42  <Terkhen> I'd also go with fixing the issues for trains first
15:03:22  <Terkhen> adding things like that to an unified code would be more complicated IMO
15:03:53  <[twisti]> aww, shit - all my trains are stuck in a loop lol
15:04:38  <Terkhen> hmmm... IIRC the refit code traversed the consist from start to end... maybe it would make sense and be simpler codewise to allow to select the start and end points for the current refit
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15:05:23  <Terkhen> then, in theory, the required changes to the current refit command would be kept as scarce as possible
15:05:31  * andythenorth_ wonders how HEQS trams would work with partial refits :o
15:05:44  <andythenorth_> they cheat vehicle lengths with invisible vehicles
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15:05:56  <andythenorth_> I guess capacity is 0 for those vehicles, so maybe a non-issue
15:06:34  <andythenorth_> rv-wagons would spur development of BANDIT :)
15:06:38  <andythenorth_> and a recoding of HEQS :)
15:06:56  <Terkhen> HEQS trams would probably require a rewrite to work with this
15:07:01  <andythenorth_> that would be fine
15:07:16  <andythenorth_> the current method is very clever (thanks to Eddi|zuHause), but not elegant in buy menu
15:07:40  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
15:07:51  <andythenorth_> it's fewer clicks than adding wagons to trains....but fewer clicks is not always bettter
15:08:23  <andythenorth_> I have been putting off developing BANDIT because it's like 3D chess trying to make an elegant way to purchase vehicles
15:08:34  <Chris_Booth_> andythenorth_: why do you have an '_' at the end of your name?
15:08:36  *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
15:08:37  <andythenorth_> dunno
15:08:41  <andythenorth_> some kind of irc magic
15:08:47  <Terkhen> hmmm... the refit GUI for trains could copy part of the train depot GUI; it would show the complete consist and allow to select the start and end point for refitting
15:09:06  <Terkhen> or maybe drag to select multiple adjacent wagons
15:09:16  <andythenorth_> drag-select
15:09:25  <Terkhen> yes, it seems more intuitive
15:09:30  <andythenorth_> might be fiddly if there are trains on adjacent rows
15:09:40  <andythenorth_> starting the drag will easily pick up vehicles by mistake
15:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so: test grf: <-- try buying one or more wagons, and then drag them around in the depot
15:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the mouse cursor turns invisible
15:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of take on the whole (articulated) wagon
15:10:46  *** Mortomes [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll attach this to a bug report
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15:11:29  <andythenorth_> currently designing a good rv set is fiddly
15:11:57  <andythenorth_> I have to balance power, tractive effort, and capacity to get a good balance between vehicles
15:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the wagon works like this: it has 3 parts, first part: 4/8 length, invisible, second part: 8/8 length, 16/8 length picture, third part: 4/8 length, invisible
15:12:14  <andythenorth_> and I have to provide interesting reasons to choose vehicle A or vehicle B for a route
15:12:23  <Lakie> Yexo: thanks, that allows my basic object to compile.
15:12:28  <andythenorth_> and I have to keep the buy menu and refit menus simple-ish
15:12:39  <andythenorth_> trains are much easier
15:12:40  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: if I revert realistic acceleration for RVs balance would be simple again :P
15:12:41  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:12:48  <andythenorth_> not really :)
15:12:53  <Terkhen> simpler at least :)
15:12:59  <andythenorth_> still no
15:13:16  <andythenorth_> realistic acceleration actually gives a reason to pick vehicle A instead of B sometimes
15:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> trains are supposed to be the most complicated part of the game :p
15:14:01  <Terkhen> I usually only look at speed and capacity, unless I'm building a route with a lot of slopes power, weight and TE don't matter that much
15:14:03  <andythenorth_> if vehicle B is faster and higher capacity, but lower hp / tractive effort than A, realistic acceleration can make sense
15:14:28  <andythenorth_> HEQS mining trucks are a good example
15:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: but i think that's a game balance problem that weight/te don't matter enough
15:14:45  <andythenorth_> run the 700hp trucks with trailers up a three tile slope and suffer :P
15:15:21  <andythenorth_> run the non-trailer version up same slope with half of capacity, and all of weight on driven wheels, then see the difference
15:15:24  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I have not played with trains lately; is this problem noticeable with them too?
15:15:57  <Terkhen> (where lately means 8 or 9 months)
15:16:10  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: try UKRS 2 and see :)
15:16:18  <andythenorth_> I think it matters, but I'm not sure how noticeably
15:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i'm generally of the opinion that trains get to max speed way too quickly (within 1 or 2 tiles usually)
15:16:26  <andythenorth_> I can't prove a difference
15:16:33  <andythenorth_> more hp *definitely* matters
15:18:26  <Terkhen> hmmm... maybe if hp had a more noticeable effect in accelerating a vehicle it would feel more important
15:18:56  <Hirundo> HP has a noticeable effect, far more than TE actually for almost all vehicles
15:20:23  * andythenorth_ likes rv-wagons idea and would be keen to help
15:20:39  <andythenorth_> think it's got more immediate gameplay benefit than road-types
15:21:41  <Chris_Booth_> underground stations has a bigger impact
15:21:59  <andythenorth_> maybe
15:22:07  <andythenorth_> for PAX games in cities
15:22:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: for trains, TE should have a way bigger influence than for road vehicles.
15:22:31  <andythenorth_> rv-wagons would improve possibilities for every RV on the map, and every RV newgrf
15:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> because steel-on-steel friction is lower than tyre-on-asphalt
15:22:56  <Chris_Booth_> that wasn't the response I wanted. I was just saying something that will be hard to implement
15:23:07  <andythenorth_> TE is a factor of adhesion?
15:23:41  <Hirundo> For a standard train engine with 3000hp and 250kN, TE is a factor only below 32 km/h
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15:24:27  <Hirundo> @calc (3000 * 0,736 / 250) * 3,6
15:24:27  <DorpsGek> Hirundo: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
15:24:34  <andythenorth_> for rv-wagons, grf authors would have to think through how trailers connect
15:24:37  * Terkhen reworked this part of the code and still does not understand the formulas
15:24:37  <planetmaker> s/,/./
15:24:39  <Hirundo> @calc (3000 * 0.736 / 250) * 3.6
15:24:39  <DorpsGek> Hirundo: 31.7952
15:24:49  <andythenorth_> trucks use both fifth-wheel and drawbar trailers
15:25:17  <andythenorth_> but maybe same trailer can be used for both, and just provide alternative sprites
15:26:01  <Chris_Booth_> what would be nice is better road junctions if you are talking about expanding the RV side of the game
15:26:17  <Chris_Booth_> or diagonal road tiles
15:26:43  <andythenorth_> aren't diagonal road tiles just impossible?
15:27:08  <Terkhen> there's too many things wrong with road vehicle movement to fix before thinking on diagonal roads
15:27:39  <andythenorth_> I'm trying to work out how a diagonal road would be built along slopes
15:27:43  <andythenorth_> probably with foundations I guess
15:27:57  <andythenorth_> diagonal roads would be nice
15:28:00  <andythenorth_> but so would a pony
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15:28:11  <Chris_Booth_> and you would need to redraw all the rv sprites
15:28:20  <andythenorth_> no they already have the | - views
15:28:24  <SmatZ> there already
15:28:25  <SmatZ> ...
15:28:27  <SmatZ> :)
15:28:28  <andythenorth_> I have to fricking draw them :)
15:28:31  <Terkhen> for example, I remember checking the overtaking code when I started hacking the code, it was hardly understandable at all
15:28:39  <SmatZ> andythenorth_: first it would be nice to have diagonal RAILS on slopes
15:28:41  <andythenorth_> and I often choose to draw non-symmetrical vehicles :(
15:29:01  * andythenorth_ builds some diagonal rails on slopes
15:29:08  <Terkhen> how? :P
15:29:33  <andythenorth_> umm, we must be talking about different problem :P
15:29:48  <SmatZ>
15:29:56  <Chris_Booth_> onslope and upslope are differnet things
15:30:02  <andythenorth_> yeah, I'm going along slope
15:30:06  <SmatZ> ok :)
15:30:10  <andythenorth_> parallel to base of slope
15:30:30  <andythenorth_> diagonal rails on slope is another impossibility :P
15:30:38  <andythenorth_> irl the trains would fall off
15:30:52  <SmatZ> actually I had a dirty patch for that
15:31:20  <planetmaker> :-D
15:31:21  <dihedral> SMATZ :-)
15:31:26  <andythenorth_> it could be cheated visually
15:31:38  <SmatZ> the rail just needs to be "rotated" a bit, so it won't fall :)
15:31:40  <andythenorth_> it would need a special kind of foundation ?
15:31:40  <SmatZ> :-)
15:31:41  <frosch123> i guess trains drove quite weird: alternating flat track and double slope :p
15:31:42  <SmatZ> hello dihedral
15:31:56  <SmatZ> yeah
15:32:01  <SmatZ> that's ugly
15:32:09  <andythenorth_> Chris_Booth_: what's wrong with road junctions?
15:32:14  <SmatZ> it would be better to have half-height-difference
15:32:23  <SmatZ> and blah blah... :)
15:32:23  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: road vehicles drive through each other
15:32:32  <Chris_Booth_> andythenorth_: nothing is wrong with them
15:32:39  <Chris_Booth_> just not enough options
15:32:47  <andythenorth_> Terkhen one of the many advantages of RVs I feel :D
15:33:27  <Terkhen> yes, issues like this one make you grow lazy and then you don't want to play with trains anymore :P
15:33:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20943 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Name some magic constants. (Based on patch by uni657)
15:34:15  * andythenorth_ plans a truck set using game features that are (a) non-existent (b) not promised yet :D
15:34:29  <andythenorth_> what trailers would be needed?
15:34:31  <andythenorth_> flat trailer
15:34:31  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20944 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Bail out early in DrawBridgePillars(). (uni657)
15:34:34  <andythenorth_> tank trailer
15:34:37  <andythenorth_> tipping trailer
15:34:40  <andythenorth_> low loader
15:34:44  <andythenorth_> van trailer
15:34:54  <andythenorth_> container trailer
15:35:04  <andythenorth_> that's most of them done :)
15:35:04  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20945 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Add helper function to draw single pillar sprites. (based on patch by uni657)
15:35:26  <andythenorth_> 2 axle tractor unit
15:35:29  <andythenorth_> 3 axle tractor unit
15:35:40  <andythenorth_> 2 axle rigid truck / 3 axle / 4 axle
15:35:45  <andythenorth_> done
15:35:48  <andythenorth_> nice simple buy menu
15:35:50  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20946 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Add helper function to draw pillar columns.
15:35:58  <andythenorth_> add a few variations for speed, hp, running cost etc
15:36:05  <andythenorth_> win win win
15:36:13  * Terkhen ponders not coding any features to give andythenorth enough time to finish existing sets or draw trucks for opengfx+-rv
15:36:41  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: first thing I'd do with these features is recode HEQS - which I've been planning anyway
15:36:48  <Terkhen> :)
15:36:59  <andythenorth_> I was going to code more trucks to work like trams - with variable trailers
15:37:12  <andythenorth_> but it would be lots of wasted work if this feature was available
15:37:58  <Terkhen> it is currently possible to define wagons that can only be attached to certain engines?
15:38:01  <[twisti]> damn
15:38:05  <[twisti]> my trains keep crashing
15:38:08  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: for trains definitely
15:38:13  <[twisti]> almost every time they drive back and forth
15:38:21  <[twisti]> is there anything i can do to make it better ?
15:38:26  <andythenorth_> I would assume that RVs would inherit the same feature
15:38:51  <Terkhen> for rvs I guess wagons would need to explicitly define which engines can use them, instead of implicitly assuming that all engines of their type can use them
15:39:04  <andythenorth_> I think it would be up to newgrf author
15:39:13  <andythenorth_> it does raise question of arbitrary labels again
15:39:21  <andythenorth_> best stay away from that :)
15:39:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20947 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp:
15:39:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Change: Draw bridgepillars with correct length on all tile corners by drawing only half of the pillar sprite if required. (based on patch by uni657)
15:39:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD:  Note: Cantilever and tubular bridges will still look weird when using orignal graphics. Use OpenGFX instead :)
15:39:57  <Terkhen> you broke original graphics :O
15:40:11  * Terkhen foresees a request for a setting
15:40:21  <andythenorth_> settings suck :)
15:40:22  <[twisti]> is there a place better suited to ask gameplay questions ? this seems more like a programming channel
15:40:23  <Chris_Booth_> [twisti]: are you joking?
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15:40:29  <[twisti]> Chris_Booth: no, im new
15:40:48  <Chris_Booth_> [twisti]: try using signals
15:40:56  <[twisti]> no, i mean, they break down
15:40:58  <[twisti]> not accidents
15:41:07  <Chris_Booth_> ooh then you can turn breakdowns off
15:41:09  <andythenorth_> have you got depots on their route?
15:41:10  <Mortomes> You can turn breakdowns off in difficulty settings
15:41:12  <frosch123> [17:39] <Terkhen> it is currently possible to define wagons that can only be attached to certain engines? <- tranis can forbit attaching wagons. but the default is "always allow". for rv one could just alter the default :)
15:41:15  <[twisti]> even though i keep sending them to depots
15:41:38  <[twisti]> and i even changed the tracks so they HAVE to drive into depots every time they pass them
15:41:42  <andythenorth_> [twisti]: turn breakdowns off :)
15:41:47  <Chris_Booth_> yes they do that if breakdows are to to on [twisti]
15:42:00  <frosch123> [17:41] <Terkhen> you broke original graphics :O <- they do not look worse than before
15:42:04  <Terkhen> :D
15:42:05  <[twisti]> that feels too much like cheating :| i was hoping i just did something wrong
15:42:07  <Chris_Booth_> turn them off in the openttd.cfg or in the difficulty settings
15:42:16  <andythenorth_> [twisti]: hard to tell without screenshots :)
15:42:25  <Hirundo> static const int INF = 1000; <- I thought infinity was larger :)
15:42:28  <andythenorth_> try posting screenshots or savegame in tt forums
15:42:37  <[twisti]> i think the lane is too long, but let me try
15:42:37  <Chris_Booth_> no breakdowns are random and annoying
15:42:39  <Mortomes> Hirundo: For very small values of infinity
15:42:50  * Terkhen ponders a full rewrite of the refit gui
15:42:57  <Mortomes> I always play with breakdowns off
15:43:01  <Hirundo> limit(inf->0) = 1000 ?
15:43:04  <Chris_Booth_> even if the train has a 90% or < it can break
15:43:05  * andythenorth_ ponders a full rewrite of HEQS
15:43:22  <[twisti]> oh, also, is there a way to "synchronize" trains ? i have 2 trains going between two stations, and i WANT them to leave the station when the opposing side does, but they always end up being right after another
15:43:42  <planetmaker> lol @ frosch's commit message :-)
15:43:46  <Hirundo> [twisti]: timetabling, but it's kinda cumbersome
15:43:53  <Chris_Booth_> yes [twisti] you can use some cool signaling
15:44:02  <Chris_Booth_> that dectects when trains are full
15:44:07  <Chris_Booth_> or use a time table
15:44:18  <Terkhen> allowing partial refits and something like my old split refit window would be great
15:44:27  <[twisti]> time table seems easier for a noob like me, signals are complicated as it is ;)
15:44:32  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: don't forget ships :P
15:44:42  <andythenorth_> you'll need to give them split cargo capacity first though :)
15:44:45  <planetmaker> [twisti]: in any case this is the correct channel
15:44:53  <Mortomes> [twisti]: Just wait until you see some of the stuff by the people at openttdcoop
15:44:56  <Chris_Booth_> dont forget the planes that crash into each other in mid air yet dont crash
15:44:58  <planetmaker> but your trains / vehicles might be too old, beyond their lifetime
15:45:03  <Terkhen> I meant that patch about splitting cargo / cargo subtypes in the refit window
15:45:10  <andythenorth_> I remember it
15:45:18  <andythenorth_> I liked it
15:45:22  <planetmaker> ^
15:45:30  <Terkhen> I'm thinking about linking the refit window to the depot window
15:45:42  <planetmaker> linking as in... ?
15:45:42  <Terkhen> you would just select what vehicle / vehicle parts you want to refit
15:45:44  <planetmaker> one window?
15:46:00  <Terkhen> and the refit window would show refit options for your selection
15:46:11  <Terkhen> it could be made as one window or as two different windows
15:46:26  <Terkhen> two different windows would probable be cleaner code wise
15:46:36  <planetmaker> like newgrf gui :-)
15:46:45  <planetmaker> but much more difficult code-wise
15:48:01  <Terkhen> indeed
15:48:13  <Terkhen> besides, usually you are not refitting
15:48:30  <Terkhen> I think they make more sense as separated but linked windows
15:48:38  <planetmaker> probably, yes
15:49:16  <[twisti]> this is the track where my trains keep breaking down almost every time they go from one station to another: and
15:50:01  <Terkhen> how long can a train be?
15:50:24  <andythenorth_> 255 vehicles?
15:50:27  <andythenorth_> I'm guessing only
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15:50:45  <planetmaker> 64 tiles or so makes sense at most
15:50:45  <Chris_Booth_> no andythenorth_ 64 tiles
15:50:56  <Chris_Booth_> as that is max station speard
15:51:04  <Chris_Booth_> anything longer is pointless
15:51:21  <frosch123> around 128 vehicles independent of length
15:51:36  <frosch123> there is some constant somewhere
15:51:37  <Rubidium> the Bjarni factor!
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15:51:54  <frosch123> you mean, doubleheaded engines counted as one?
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15:52:20  <Rubidium> yeah, but only during autoreplace
15:52:37  <frosch123> iirc we made it at least consistent :)
15:52:59  <Rubidium> could very well. I never come even near to those lengths
15:53:24  <Terkhen> CmdRefit... has 16 free bits in P2, as long as a consist can't have more than 2^8 parts I could use them to indicate the first and last consist part to be refitted
15:53:26  <Chris_Booth_> 3 tiles is the best length
15:53:27  <frosch123> play without mamoth trains :p
15:54:39  <frosch123> Terkhen: you do not need to pass the first part
15:55:06  <frosch123> the command is already used for fitting single articulated parts during cloning by passing the appropiate vehicleid
15:55:35  <frosch123> however, a partial refit via gui should only refit whole vehicles, no single articulated parts
15:56:06  <frosch123> except by adding some newgrf property/whatever to allow that
15:56:28  <frosch123> but that would also cause trouble for ais
15:56:32  <Terkhen> yes, I meant full engines/wagons
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15:57:23  <Terkhen> hmm... then the command has a lot of free space, maybe first vehicle / number of parts
15:57:32  <Terkhen> s/parts/wagons/
15:57:33  <Hirundo> Currently, only 37 of 64 bits are used by p1/p2, so there are enough bits free to pass e.g. 2 vehicleids
15:57:54  <frosch123> maybe 8 bits for wagons with 0 being special case for "only this articulated part" :)
15:58:03  <frosch123> *number of
15:58:32  <frosch123> i.e. you do not need the only_this flag anymore (if it is still called like that)
15:58:50  <Terkhen> yes, I was counting it as free space already
15:59:03  <Rubidium> aren't vehicle IDs 20 bits?
16:00:00  <frosch123> yes?
16:00:16  <planetmaker> 37/20 < 2 ;-)
16:00:36  <Rubidium> actually, (64-37)/20 < 2, but yes
16:00:49  <frosch123> noone wants to pass another vehicleid :)
16:01:03  <planetmaker> [17:59]	<Hirundo>	Currently, only 37 of 64 bits are used by p1/p2, so there are enough bits free to pass e.g. 2 vehicleids <-- someone does ;-)
16:02:06  <frosch123> just read it correctly :p
16:03:37  <Terkhen> so... does this idea makes sense interface-wise? linking the depot and refit windows and using the depot GUI to select what you want to refit
16:04:56  <frosch123> do you mean one big window, or two?
16:05:10  <Hirundo> "using the depot GUI to select" <- That'll be the hard part
16:05:23  <Terkhen> two windows
16:06:07  <frosch123> maybe click a refit button in the depot gui and then drag-select a series of wagons?
16:06:18  <frosch123> while the button in the vehiclegui still applies to the whole consist
16:06:38  <frosch123> or display the vehiclechain also in the refitgui and select there?
16:06:50  <Hirundo> I'd do the drag-selection first, so the same selection can be used to move/delete vehicles
16:07:20  <Terkhen> displaying the whole chain in the refit gui was my first thought, but it would mean duplicating a lot of code
16:07:27  <frosch123> both click+drag and ctrl+click+drag are already used for moving
16:07:28  <planetmaker> sounds good, Hirundo
16:07:32  <frosch123> so how shall selecting work?
16:07:44  <planetmaker> Terkhen: not bad, though from a GUI point: before and after refit
16:07:54  <planetmaker> both could be displayed below eachother
16:07:59  <planetmaker> would be a good GUI guide
16:08:15  <frosch123> Terkhen: duplicate? the vehicle drawing is also used in the vehicledetails and is already separate
16:08:26  <Hirundo> with enough free space, click+drag can be used for both selection and dragging
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16:08:40  <frosch123> planetmaker: good luck with that :p
16:08:40  <planetmaker> and it'd allow to extend it further: whole consist replacement by arbitrary stuff.
16:08:44  <planetmaker> not now, but later :-)
16:08:47  <Terkhen> frosch123: but not selecting parts
16:08:58  <frosch123> "preview after refit" is "no way" :p
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16:09:06  <planetmaker> no? hm
16:09:45  <Terkhen> for selecting I'd go with pressing a refit button in the depot gui and selecting what you want to refit
16:10:11  <Terkhen> then the refit window would pop up and allow you to refit that part (showing your selection would be nice too)
16:10:17  <frosch123> Hirundo: how do you mean? ctrl+drag is currently used for move consist
16:11:07  <frosch123> Terkhen: in any case, rearranging the train whiel refit window is open will cause trouble :p
16:11:10  <Hirundo> in windows, click+drag can be used for both selection and dragging, depending on whether you click 'on' or 'between' items on your desktop
16:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> how long can a train be? afair it was 100 vehicles
16:11:30  <Terkhen> frosch123: it should close in that case
16:11:53  <Terkhen> in fact, it should already close in trunk if the train is changed
16:12:14  <Terkhen> or at least get a new list of options accordingly
16:12:18  * Terkhen checks
16:12:38  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 	int allowed_len = _settings_game.vehicle.mammoth_trains ? 100 : 10; <- multiply that withstatic const uint MAX_ARTICULATED_PARTS = 100;
16:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you sure that doesn't count articulated parts as individual vehicles?
16:13:25  <Terkhen> yes, it works, so it is calling RefitWindow::OnInvalidateData already
16:13:45  <Terkhen> if you are working only with a selection and OnInvalidateData is called, it would close the window
16:13:48  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: read above about bjarni-factor
16:14:02  <frosch123> Terkhen: also users will request the same for orders :s
16:14:24  <frosch123> orders have different space constraints
16:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i skipped that part, because it was starting to sound scary :p
16:14:31  <Terkhen> orders for parts of a train? :P
16:14:51  <frosch123> refit orders
16:15:24  <Terkhen> of course, we were missing the "suddenly it gets way more complicated" parts :P
16:16:20  <frosch123> Terkhen: be careful with mentioning orders for parts of trains when eddi is around :)
16:16:37  <[twisti]> i think i have a bug
16:16:43  <[twisti]> i cant get over 60% transported
16:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
16:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> [twisti]: no, that is a feature
16:16:57  <frosch123> [twisti]: build faster trains and statues
16:17:01  <[twisti]> even though i have like 5 times the capacity
16:17:05  <[twisti]> statues ?
16:17:11  <frosch123> in the town
16:17:22  <[twisti]> theres no town involved
16:17:34  <Terkhen> hmmm...
16:17:34  <[twisti]> im transporting coal
16:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> [twisti]: by "just providing frequent service" you get around 67% transport rating
16:17:47  <frosch123> [twisti]:
16:17:51  <[twisti]> no, not rating
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16:17:56  <[twisti]> goods transported
16:18:02  <frosch123> all the same
16:18:06  <[twisti]> oh
16:18:13  <[twisti]> they dont let me transport more if they arent happy ?
16:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> [twisti]: yes, rating, the industry will provide cargo according to your rating
16:18:20  <frosch123> statues also apply to coal stations
16:18:21  <[twisti]> ah, i see
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16:18:33  <[twisti]> i thought that was just for 'approval' rating
16:18:37  <frosch123> and transport percentage is influenced by ratings of nearby stations
16:18:37  <[twisti]> thanks
16:18:50  <Terkhen> partial refit orders makes this much more complicated :(
16:19:23  <Terkhen> for example: changing the consist would need to remove the order
16:19:43  <Hirundo> Is partial refitting by order really needed?
16:19:46  <frosch123> Terkhen: do you know whether there is enough space in the packed order struct?
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16:20:00  <Hirundo> Refitting already doesn't fit inside the packing IIRC
16:20:22  <Terkhen> Hirundo: IMO it isn't, but it would be consistent
16:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause> imho all this refitting stuff should be done by consist, not by train. you make a consist gui similar to the current depot gui, and then buy trains or set refit orders according to defined consists.
16:21:38  <frosch123> hmm, oh, i thought packed orders would contain everything
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16:22:02  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: same as Railroad Tycoon 2 / 3?
16:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i have never played those games
16:22:14  <andythenorth_> there aren't really wagons?  Just consists?
16:22:26  <Hirundo> There's only so much that can be fit in 32 bits: "this->dest << 16 | this->flags << 8 | this->type"
16:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: no, there would be wagons, only you can't change them directly
16:23:06  <andythenorth_> ok
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16:23:25  <Terkhen> frosch123: I don't know where is that struct
16:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: basically this is about reusing the consist for similar trains
16:23:37  <andythenorth_> makes sense
16:23:41  <frosch123> order_cmd, order_base
16:23:42  <andythenorth_> is that the same as reworked groups?
16:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause> like shared orders, -> shared consist
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16:23:58  <frosch123> but, yes refitting is not used for Order::Pack and stuff
16:24:22  <Terkhen> oh, I see
16:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it could be part of the group redesign
16:24:33  <frosch123> however, deleting the refit order on changing the consist is no issue
16:24:44  <frosch123> it already fails with shared orders :p
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16:25:05  <andythenorth_> consists would be a total win for RVs too
16:25:37  <frosch123> like: what is a partial refit for different train layouts sharing orders? :ÃŒp
16:25:57  <frosch123> imo a good reason towards users not to implement it :p
16:26:06  * Terkhen agrees
16:26:09  <andythenorth_> what's the desire for partial refits?
16:26:14  <andythenorth_> besides user requests?
16:26:37  <frosch123> andythenorth_: construct trains with mixed cargo without have to move the wagons to temporary engines for refitting
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16:26:41  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: mixed trains
16:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: a group of open wagons half refitted to coal, the other half refitted to ore?
16:26:46  * andythenorth_ does the wagon shuffle
16:26:49  <andythenorth_> in depot
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16:27:07  <Hirundo> or a coal train with one ENSP wagon attached
16:27:07  <planetmaker> it's only fun, if I can do it with orders. Regularily. Each run
16:27:11  <planetmaker> so that they don't run empty
16:27:12  <frosch123> yup, it is just about saving the shuffling :)
16:27:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but e.g. for industrial trams you can't shuffle ;)
16:27:21  <andythenorth_> for consists, does one train act as the master?
16:27:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: we already said, that partial refit does not apply to articulated parts
16:27:49  <andythenorth_> or does changing anyone train cause the others to try and match it?
16:27:50  <frosch123> for various reasons
16:28:13  <Terkhen> IIRC last time there was a talk about groups an idea similar to consists was floating around
16:28:45  <andythenorth_> so do all trains try and stay in sync, or is there a master / slave concept?
16:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: imho, changing a train would automatically create a new consist. if you want to change all trains sharing a consist, you change the consist itself
16:29:16  <andythenorth_> what's the interaction for that?
16:29:28  <andythenorth_> a consist of virtual vehicles?
16:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: but shared orders currently work like that, you change one train, and all others change automatically
16:29:43  <andythenorth_> but that doesn't involve going to depot
16:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: yes, basically a virtual depot
16:29:58  <Terkhen> a virtual consist that all trains in the group try to match?
16:30:02  <michi_cc> Maybe we need something like automatic refit, that could be done by allowing each wagon to have multiple cargo types from which one is selected as actual cargo type when starting to load an empty wagon.
16:30:04  <andythenorth_> shared orders are instantaneous
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16:30:22  <andythenorth_> michi_cc: that would be awesome, but more like RT 3
16:30:26  <andythenorth_> not so TTD-style
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16:30:36  <andythenorth_> we discussed before packaging cargo inside some kind of containers
16:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: yes, that could be fun, but you'd want a way to not refit the same wagon between oil and milk. only oil and chemicals, or milk and water... or something
16:31:19  <andythenorth_> we talked for about half a day about automatic refit
16:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> might be a newgrf coding nightmare
16:31:29  <Terkhen> I think that I'm going to ignore the partial refit order issue for now
16:31:31  <andythenorth_> I started when I asked if stations could be like depots and allow automatic refit
16:31:42  <andythenorth_> the conclusion was ultimately it's a bad idea
16:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: containers are the same thing as shunting, imho.
16:31:56  <andythenorth_> intermodal cargo (cargo inside some kind of package) was slightly appealing
16:32:01  <andythenorth_> maybe
16:32:02  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Select between compatible cargo sets by CB / refit?
16:32:17  <andythenorth_> but where is the cargo going?
16:32:27  <andythenorth_> you have to check that the destination is somehow desirable to gameplay
16:32:35  <andythenorth_> without cargodest that's insanely hard
16:32:45  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: should probably done by cargo class. add a "food quality" cargo class
16:33:09  <michi_cc> I.e. if you buy a tank wagon, you'd refit between cargo sets and not individual cargos.
16:33:47  <andythenorth_> I think it fails without either cargodest, or a supply/demand economy
16:33:56  <andythenorth_> it's just 'magic'
16:34:00  <andythenorth_> probably bad magic
16:34:03  <michi_cc> Well, have some kind of compatible class defintion in the cargo type def and a way to override that for each wagon if wanted.
16:34:21  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: partial refits are not the biggest win :)
16:34:27  <andythenorth_> consists might be :o
16:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: refit masks are a hell already :p
16:34:48  <andythenorth_> I have spent a large part of my afternoon doing things like adding 'two more wagons' to 7 trains
16:34:59  <andythenorth_> eventually I gave up that and switched to ships
16:35:12  <andythenorth_> at least then I just replace all vehicles in a group with a bigger one
16:35:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: yes, consists could solve that
16:35:32  <andythenorth_> consists == good idea
16:35:36  <Terkhen> for consists, you would need to rewrite groups completely, and for that the first thing are some specs describing how they would work
16:35:38  <andythenorth_> rv wagons == good idea
16:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> just add the train to a new consist, and on next depot visit, it will buy/sell/refit the vehicles
16:36:23  <andythenorth_> so you just check date of last player-modified train?
16:36:28  <andythenorth_> and then match to that?
16:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you could almost scrap the whole autoreplace gui in that process...
16:36:39  <andythenorth_> pretty much :)
16:37:01  <andythenorth_> when I have hundreds of vehicles, I have to use auto-replace by group anyway
16:37:10  <andythenorth_> which means dragging lots of vehicles back and forth
16:37:12  <Terkhen> for me this is very similar to groups (or at least to what groups should do)
16:37:27  <Terkhen> so it would need reworking that too
16:37:38  <andythenorth_> frosch123: when we talked about ship liveries, the only safe conclusion was that groups / consists might be the best solution to that too?
16:37:46  <andythenorth_> or arbitrary labels
16:37:58  <andythenorth_> (which I didn't like for certain reasons)
16:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> groups need to be more flexible. so station timetables etc. would use on-the-fly-created groups, and vehicles may be in multiple groups
16:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or nested groups
16:38:45  <Terkhen> indeed
16:39:16  <Terkhen> shared orders -> group; consist -> group
16:39:17  <andythenorth_> we should agree some terms
16:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> then shared orders and shared consists would also use groups internally
16:39:23  <andythenorth_> oh you just started that :)
16:39:43  <Rubidium> so brianetta-ify the groups
16:40:02  <andythenorth_> is there a mathematical symbol similar to !=, but meaning 'does not necessitate'?
16:40:21  <Mortomes> !->
16:40:37  <frosch123> andythenorth_: at least currently liveries are not grf defined, any it might be better to keep it that way
16:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in the group gui you can then show the groups by shared order, or groups by shared consist, or groups by player-assigned-organisation
16:40:45  <andythenorth_> frosch123: I would prefer that
16:40:56  <andythenorth_> not everything should be newgrf definable
16:41:04  <andythenorth_> newgrf authors need some constraints to work against
16:41:14  <andythenorth_> and players need to not have newgrfs changing *everything*
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16:41:27  <frosch123> so, if you can define groups via rules, you could convert current liveries into liveries for special groups
16:41:39  <andythenorth_> if everything is newgrf definable, the meta-game of grf authoring is no fun :)
16:41:48  <andythenorth_> it's like Lego, it only fits together certain ways
16:41:50  <frosch123> but that does not apply to the groups in tree-structure approach
16:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: by "liveries" you mean "company colours"?
16:42:22  <andythenorth_> yes
16:42:45  <andythenorth_> set 1cc / 2cc on a per-group basis
16:42:50  <andythenorth_> if desired
16:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause> like "passenger trains", "freight trains", "EMUs"
16:42:58  <Zuu> So user-groups would just become something like a search term.
16:43:02  <andythenorth_> vehicles can be in more than one group?
16:43:09  <andythenorth_> sounds like smart-folders on OS X
16:43:10  <andythenorth_> or similar
16:43:22  <andythenorth_> not sure that works for this case
16:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like to set that to: "local trams in town A", "local busses in town B" etc.
16:44:09  <andythenorth_> players manipulate consists quite separately to manipulating shared orders?
16:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: groups are a relational database ;)
16:44:31  <andythenorth_> so 1 consist group could be using say 2 sets of shared orders?
16:44:35  <frosch123> anyway, if groups are not tree-like you get into trouble if a vehicle belongs to two groups which have different settings
16:44:42  <avdg> <3 filters and subfolders
16:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: yes, consists and orders should be separate
16:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you need some way to set priorities
16:45:18  <avdg> like a mailbox
16:45:48  <Zuu> frosch123: indeed, that could become a problem of having a clean behaviour of the system.
16:46:07  <frosch123> also, if you set stuff for groups, you only set it for whole trains
16:46:19  <frosch123> which does not fit into the liveries for wagons and engines theme
16:46:51  <andythenorth_> would consists have any mechanism for auto-replace?
16:47:16  * andythenorth_ wonders how 'remove wagons' works if multiple sets of shared orders are in use
16:47:32  <andythenorth_> I guess same applies to current groups
16:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: what do you mean?
16:47:57  <andythenorth_> does 'remove wagons' check current train length, or check shortest platform on route?
16:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the current "remove wagons" feature is a hack due to lack of consists
16:48:10  <Terkhen> probably train length
16:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it checks the train length before replacing
16:48:22  <andythenorth_> ok
16:48:23  <frosch123> andythenorth_: it just ensures that the train does not get longer than before
16:48:28  <andythenorth_> :)
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16:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so... how weird is it when someone with a mr. burns avatar says "excellent", and i hear that in the voice of mr. burns?
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16:58:03  <SmatZ> hehe :)
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17:20:44  * andythenorth_ wonders what is a good way to do liveries?
17:20:57  <andythenorth_> it's kind of putting me off extending FISH
17:21:03  <Lakie> Yexo, planetmaker: not sure if you know, but what does the 'tile' : 's' on 60x vars refer to?
17:24:20  <Lakie> I ask because I'm unsure if thats linked to the 'input' it expects
17:25:05  * andythenorth_ ponders using colour mapping cb to make ships black / grey before a certain date
17:25:12  <andythenorth_> then cc thereafter
17:25:22  <andythenorth_> might be the best route
17:25:28  <andythenorth_> involves no changes to ottd
17:25:38  <andythenorth_> one less pony
17:26:00  <Lakie> Maybe depends on the remap map you use for it
17:26:00  <andythenorth_> frosch123: was the ship class patch close to inclusion?
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17:27:19  <frosch123> andythenorth_: it is only about the issue withj railtypes and such, i.e. whether ships shall define livery classes at all
17:27:33  <andythenorth_> I think it's bad if they do
17:27:41  <andythenorth_> ship types is more akin to railtypes surely?
17:27:47  <frosch123> the patch itself is absolutely fine
17:29:02  <frosch123> trains have a railtype (normal, electric, monorail, maglev, metro, 3rd rail...) and a traktion type (steam, electric, diesel) and a dmu/emu flag
17:29:26  <frosch123> ships have neither a waterclass (river, ocean, canal) nor a engine type (stream, diesel, sail)
17:29:40  <andythenorth_> ships should have equivalent of traction type
17:29:45  <andythenorth_> that would define smoke for starters
17:29:45  <frosch123> the livery selection mixes all those types in an unlucky mess :)
17:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the steam/diesel/sail stuff was added?
17:30:23  <andythenorth_> railtypes don't affect liveries at all
17:30:32  <andythenorth_> only traction type
17:30:50  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: from the sail/steam/diesel thingie it is only a small step to "why is there a maglev livery, but no metro livery"
17:31:02  <andythenorth_> just don't take that step :)
17:31:11  <frosch123> and railtypes are grfdefined, so there cannot be a static defined setting
17:31:12  <andythenorth_> why don't the engines need fuel?
17:31:17  <andythenorth_> why are depots only one tile?
17:31:28  <andythenorth_> why can RVs drive through each other?
17:31:35  <Eddi|zuHause> why are there not two rails on one tile ;)
17:31:39  <andythenorth_> choosing a livery isn't particular information, it's just eye candy
17:31:49  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: there are, except for monorail :)
17:31:59  <andythenorth_> a very particular kind of player might *want* livery to be information, but it isn't
17:32:07  <andythenorth_> never has been
17:32:22  <andythenorth_> yes / no?
17:32:28  <andythenorth_> (counter argument could be made)
17:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i'm more interested in setting different liveries to different areas, like all local transport in town A different from town B
17:33:19  <andythenorth_> that would have to be for a group of some kind, and probably over-riding a default
17:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the DB used to have different liveries by engine speed
17:33:47  <andythenorth_> newgrf
17:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> engines <= 120km/h -> green, engines >120km/h -> blue, or something
17:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the DBSet implements that ;)
17:34:22  <andythenorth_> frosch123: ach ship the patch
17:34:30  <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned that we need engine refitting without cargo?
17:34:30  <andythenorth_> it will add some fun spaghetti for whoever comes after
17:35:08  <andythenorth_> perfect is enemy of good
17:35:33  <andythenorth_> :D
17:35:46  <andythenorth_> except for industry features in nfo
17:35:52  <andythenorth_> in which case perfect => good
17:36:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r20948 /trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/queue.h: -Fix (r20880): compiler warning
17:37:33  <andythenorth_> I'll draw some more boats if I can set colours :)
17:37:38  <andythenorth_> and someone was talking about ship smoke...
17:38:42  *** Hirundo is now known as Someone
17:38:45  <Someone> indeed
17:38:49  *** Someone is now known as Hirundo
17:39:38  <andythenorth_> that'll depend on knowing how ship is powered
17:43:11  <Hirundo> That'll depend on the implementation of CB 10 in ship / RV grfs
17:43:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20949 /trunk/src/lang/ (spanish.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:43:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:43:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
17:43:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by nglekhoi
17:44:58  <andythenorth_> Hirundo: is CB10 needed so articulated RV parts can have smoke?
17:45:39  <Hirundo> it's just much more flexible than adding properties, and needs less adjustments to the spec
17:45:48  <andythenorth_> ok
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18:00:49  <__ln__> Mandelbrot died.
18:01:53  <Sacro> Yep
18:01:55  <Sacro> RIP :(
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18:22:04  <Terkhen> __ln__: thank you for reporting those mistakes at the spanish translation, I fixed them this morning
18:23:53  <Chris_Booth> can I use VS 2010 to compile openttd?
18:24:05  <Terkhen> Chris_Booth: yes
18:24:13  <__ln__> Terkhen: de nada
18:24:16  <Terkhen> only recent trunk versions, though
18:24:38  <__ln__> y también gracias a ti
18:24:42  <Chris_Booth> what about QT?
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18:25:18  <Rubidium> is the source of quicktime even released?
18:25:33  <andythenorth_> unlikely
18:25:46  <Rubidium> and then, what has it to do with OpenTTD & Windows?
18:25:55  <__ln__> maybe he means the other Qt
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18:26:22  <Terkhen> you can compile it with Qt Creator if it has a correctly set mingw environment, but you will still need to configure it from msys first and it will do some strange things that I don't remember right now
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18:26:38  <Chris_Booth> Rubidium: QT is a C++ IDE
18:26:54  <__ln__> Chris_Booth: no it isn't
18:27:04  <Rubidium> never heard of it, so it depends highly on what backend it uses
18:27:15  <Chris_Booth> mingw
18:27:23  <Chris_Booth> __ln__: what is qt creator then?
18:27:27  <Terkhen> Qt Creator is an IDE, Qt is not
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18:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Qt is a library, obviously...
18:36:14  <Chris_Booth> ok next time I mention QT in here when refering to compiling I will make sure I say Qt Creator
18:36:34  <Rubidium> and QT is an abbreviation for QuickTime
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18:36:57  <Chris_Booth> who uses QuickTime?!
18:37:06  * planetmaker sometimes does
18:37:26  <Chris_Booth> ok Mr I am a Mac user planetmaker
18:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> omg, they screwed up the sanctuary intro...
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18:38:10  <LaSeandre> The only reason its installed on my pc is for itunes.
18:38:51  <Chris_Booth> LaSeandre: what do you use to play media on windows?
18:39:10  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: good, so I'm not wrong in thinking it got changed
18:39:16  <LaSeandre> Not windows media player, anyway.
18:39:24  <davis> vlc / foobar :)
18:39:48  <Chris_Booth> why do people hate windows
18:39:52  <Chris_Booth> media player?
18:39:58  <Chris_Booth> I acutaly quite like it
18:40:15  <planetmaker> windows != windows media player
18:40:24  <LaSeandre> iTunes, tbh. its the family pc, and they're used to it...
18:40:37  <Chris_Booth> planetmaker I never said it was
18:40:52  * Terkhen is now trying songbird
18:40:56  <Chris_Booth> I use windows media centre most of the time as it captures my TV card
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18:41:42  <LaSeandre> But i sometimes use media center. eugh, americanisation.
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18:44:41  <Zuu> Since I got Spotify, I never really used any other player. Some months ago they added support for playing external files as well.
18:45:07  <planetmaker> so we're at "ask 5 people, get 6 answers"
18:45:25  <davis> radio is pretty nice too
18:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if they change something, they should change everything, not play new music over the old pictures... it just feels wrong...
18:45:46  <LaSeandre> That it is, davis.
18:46:13  <davis> (:
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18:47:31  <LaSeandre> what ones run on linux, anyone know?
18:47:34  <__ln__> QuickTime is initialized by calling the function EnterMovies().  I bet other libraries have a more boring name for that.
18:47:36  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: was the girl in the last picture of the previous intros?
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18:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i guess not, but that last picture they changed before, when they removed the other girl
18:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which was another wrong decision...
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19:29:07  <sunnydrake> hi i have problem with last openttd 1.0.4 i tryed to setup own server to play openttd and after this if i start single plager i get road depots and trian depots greyed so i can't build them..
19:29:46  <Hirundo> What's the game year?
19:30:06  <sunnydrake> 1900
19:30:39  <Hirundo> That's before any (default) vehicles are available, so the infrastructure isn't available either
19:31:18  <sunnydrake> doh... :) a really bad option :) thnx ..
19:32:20  <Muddy> horse and carriges would have been fun :P
19:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause> try eGRVTS then
19:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> but fear HIS wreath...
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19:34:07  <Zuu> And don't be afraid when the horses start to smoke..
19:34:17  <dihedral> hehe
19:34:38  <LaSeandre> Stupid horses. :P
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19:35:24  <andythenorth_> 'quirky'
19:35:30  <Zuu> I like PMs idea that the horses should die on the roads when they reaches their max age
19:36:01  <LaSeandre> well, it just needs coded.
19:36:20  <andythenorth_> just set the speed to 0 and change the graphics :P
19:36:45  <__ln__> Or they are accepted as cargo to a food processing plant....
19:36:51  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
19:37:15  <andythenorth_> that reminds
19:37:16  <andythenorth_> me
19:37:32  <LaSeandre> You could be really graphic and show them being shot, but that may anger animal rights people and upset little children.
19:37:36  <Zuu> There should be a slaughter industry that transform horse RVs to food goods.
19:37:46  <planetmaker> :-D
19:38:30  <Zuu> Using conditional orders you could send your old horses there.
19:38:40  <Zuu> Just like some AIs send their old vehicles to depot.
19:38:54  <Zuu> (using conditional orders)
19:39:09  <andythenorth_> I thought maybe FIRS should have cargo 'hides'
19:39:19  <andythenorth_> would go from stockyard to furniture factory
19:39:40  <andythenorth_> makes another farm -> non-food industry link
19:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what either a "hide" or a "stockyard" are
19:40:41  <LaSeandre> Hide - cow leather
19:41:01  <planetmaker> food
19:41:07  <LaSeandre> Stockyard - warehouse?
19:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so call it "leather"
19:41:29  <andythenorth_> stockyard = slaughterhouse
19:41:37  <andythenorth_> I prefer US English :P
19:41:43  <andythenorth_> hide = leather
19:42:05  <andythenorth_> could also be fir
19:42:07  <andythenorth_> fur sorry
19:43:01  <Eddi|zuHause> probably related to "Haut/HÀute"
19:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i'm still missing an adequate replacement for Kaffeine :(
19:45:09  <andythenorth_> in FIRS?  Or life
19:45:10  <andythenorth_> ?
19:45:19  <andythenorth_> (I have trouble differentiating the two at the moment)
19:45:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Kaffeine is a media player
19:45:41  <andythenorth_> :D
19:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> one that both handles TV (recording, timeshift, EP) and other video...
19:46:35  <Eddi|zuHause> *EPG
19:46:36  <LaSeandre> iTunes... :P
19:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> lucky LaSeandre just won a place on The List
19:47:58  <LaSeandre> The List?
19:48:28  <Terkhen> I'm quite happy with songbird for now
19:49:02  <TrueBrain> MEH! WT3.1 is tricky :(
19:58:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20950 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: (or at least greatly improve) alignment of some original graphics pillar sprites
20:02:22  *** Chris_Booth_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:08:28  <Hirundo> Why does the latest commit not appear here: ?
20:09:16  <Rubidium> due to apache
20:09:24  <Rubidium> leaking like hell once again
20:09:58  <Rubidium> better luck next commit :)
20:12:35  <michi_cc> Hirundo: Wrong VCS :-D;a=summary has it.
20:13:10  <Rubidium> ergo, git uses less memory than mercurial
20:13:46  <Hirundo> Let's not start a VCS war, ok? :)
20:17:52  <Rubidium> svn would easily win that, in case of OpenTTD development
20:33:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20951 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Add SmallMap::Contains() and use it.
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20:46:55  <sunnydrake> comparing git /svn/cvs git is very good in daily uset :) and more suited for personal development :) imho :)
20:48:44  <frosch123> you dare to mention git and cvs in one sentence :p
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20:49:06  <planetmaker> cvs is... dated ;-)
20:49:09  <sunnydrake> i used all for personal/commercial development :)
20:49:15  <glx> sunnydrake: git on windows is not a good idea
20:49:28  <planetmaker> and you forgot hg :-P
20:49:48  <sunnydrake> under  windows enviroment it is good feels almost like linux
20:50:01  <sunnydrake> minigw  sh windows enviroment
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20:50:55  <sunnydrake> and experimental uyou can use ntfs imag->ext3 system -> drive letter :)
20:51:56  <dihedral> <planetmaker> cvs is... dated ;-) <- to say the least :-P
20:52:00  <sunnydrake> or nfs mount :) dunno if attribs are correct:(
20:52:41  <dihedral> and git is quite good for some distributed environments too
20:52:46  <planetmaker> dihedral: let's say, I looked at it and I was not impressed ;-)
20:53:07  <dihedral> planetmaker, i had to convert it to svn at one of my former jobs :-P
20:53:09  <planetmaker> it = cvs
20:53:10  <dihedral> and i was not impressed
20:53:14  <dihedral> it = cvs
20:53:15  <dihedral> ;-)
20:54:14  <sunnydrake> my typical personel use is linux host main git repo -> different platform pc(win/linux generally notebook that i can work in bed) and each pc sometimes have own branch that i synhro with host:) all on git .. needless to say sync or install on new pc is fairly easy
20:55:02  <dihedral> you use that to sync both computer?
20:55:20  <sunnydrake> yep
20:55:32  <dihedral> arguable, but i do know more people who do similar :-P
20:55:41  <sunnydrake> progect C# Mono win/lin platforms 4 pc's..
20:55:44  <dihedral> i.e. using a version controll system as a file share system :-P
20:56:14  <sunnydrake> for commercial work i use git to keep track of webdev :)
20:56:23  <sunnydrake> in case of emergency :0
20:57:05  <sunnydrake> btw there is experimental subversion fs for lin :)  cd dir$rev02 :)
20:57:38  <dihedral> hehe - lets hope it stays that way :-D
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21:01:35  <Zuu> I used unison to keep user-data on two linux installations/computers in sync.
21:02:23  <Zuu> They do have a windows version, but it rely on putty which made it troublesome to get to work well on Windows.
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21:09:44  <Terkhen> good night
21:09:52  <Rubidium> night Terkhen
21:10:37  <planetmaker> good night, Terkhen
21:10:43  <dihedral> night
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21:11:04  <dihedral> Zuu, unison is no version controll system
21:11:19  <dihedral> unison make use of rsync :-)
21:12:25  <Zuu> I know, but as far as I followed the discussion sunnydrake was using git to keep a few systems in sync primarly. Secondly I'm sure the version control features are nice to have.
21:12:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20952 /trunk/src/gamelog.cpp: -Add: When printing the gamelog keep track of added/removed Grfs and check them for consistency.
21:13:04  <dihedral> :-)
21:13:07  <dihedral> ^ /me likes
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21:17:37  * andythenorth_ declares bedtime
21:17:39  <andythenorth_> good night
21:18:23  *** andythenorth_ [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_]
21:19:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20953 /trunk/src/gamelog.cpp: -Add: Resolve Grf filenames from the gamelog also using the md5sum.
21:26:25  * Rubidium ponders seconding andy's declaration
21:26:58  <Muddy> Is there a way to save the game on a server before a shutdown/upgrade?
21:27:31  * planetmaker seconds andy's declaration.
21:27:36  <planetmaker> Good night folks :-)
21:28:40  <Chris_Booth> night planetmaker
21:29:19  <Rubidium> Muddy: yes and no, for more see r20783
21:29:31  * Rubidium then thirds andy's declaration
21:30:33  <LaSeandre> Night rubidium.
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21:34:32  <Muddy> So, that means that the save and load commands in the console only works for singleplayer games?
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21:36:12  <frosch123> no
21:36:20  <frosch123> @commit 20783
21:36:20  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r20783 trunk/src/video/dedicated_v.cpp (2010-09-10 20:03:45 UTC)
21:36:21  <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Change/Fix: do autosave-on-exit as well when using kill/CTRL-C to terminate a dedicated OpenTTD
21:36:41  <frosch123> you can save it on the client, or via rcon on the server manually
21:37:11  <frosch123> it will save it automatically in a sufficient new version (read: trunk), but not in 1.0.x
21:38:25  <Muddy> Got it. Thanks. Found out that my public server is still running 1.0, but as the game is in 2040 soon, it might just be a good time to upgrade/restart anyhow :)
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21:49:43  <Chris_Booth> shall I write an entry in the wiki for VS 2010?
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21:54:33  <dihedral> if it works!
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22:33:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20954 /trunk/src/gamelog.cpp: -Codechange (r20952, r20953): Don't make stuff more complicated than needed.
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22:42:27  <Keiya_> Whoever did OpenGFX's Toyland messed up... it's almost bearable to look at. That's not at all faithful to the original spirit :P
22:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> my irony detector just exploded
22:45:29  <Keiya_> Sorry.
22:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20955 /trunk/src/gamelog.cpp: -Fix (r20952): Suppress bogus inconsistencies for games saved while Grfs were missing.
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23:02:48  <Keiya> Hrm. What's the random -25/mo in other? Snack machine stocking? :P
23:04:10  <Keiya> And why don't AIs join anymore? >_>
23:07:32  *** Chris_Booth_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:11:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20956 /trunk/src/viewport_gui.cpp: -Feature: Center new extra viewports on the tile below the mouse. Only center on center of main viewport if mouse is not in any viewport.
23:12:25  <dihedral> frosch123, you spree :-)
23:13:32  <frosch123> <- it is worth it :p
23:13:53  <avdg> lol
23:14:03  <dihedral> erm
23:14:04  <dihedral> ....
23:14:06  <dihedral> right!!
23:14:10  <dihedral> erm...
23:14:16  <dihedral> frosch123, i want .... :-D
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23:14:49  <frosch123> the next one starting such a silly conversation is kicked :p
23:15:14  <dihedral> what a pitty :-P
23:15:21  <dihedral> i was getting my hopes high ^^
23:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so, how annoying must i get about shunting? :p
23:26:23  <frosch123> you already missed your chance today for that topic
23:26:51  <frosch123> :p
23:28:25  <frosch123> night
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23:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ... hey, i already mentioned shunting today
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23:57:21  * avdg wonders why people are trying to fix non-openttd issues in openttd
23:57:39  <avdg> @ fs2585
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