Log for #openttd on 20th October 2010:
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06:05:32  <_Terkhen_> good morning
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06:51:51  <Rubidium> morning _Terkhen_ et al
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07:14:38  <dihedral> morning :-)
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07:19:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20998 /extra/catcodec/ (Makefile.bundle changelog.txt [catcodec] -Change: Sync installing options with GRFCodec and NFORenum to make packaging more unified for downstream
07:21:22  <dihedral> Rubidium, not so keen on the "private chat with server" hot key patch, then i take it? :-P
07:21:56  <Rubidium> rather not looked at it (yet)
07:21:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20999 /trunk/ ( os/windows/installer/install.nsi): -Change: Add installing options or rather options to not install certain documentation, in a similar way to GRFCodec/catcodec
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07:26:49  <Rubidium> dihedral: the diff isn't properly named, or it's naming misrepresents the patch
07:28:29  <Rubidium> and it fails to apply :(
07:28:32  <dihedral> as i lik it to the admin network, i thought the prefix was rather appropriate ^^
07:28:33  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21000 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Feature[tte]: chat directly to the server or a bot/admin/irc channel monitoring the server (dihedral)
07:28:58  * dihedral hugs Rubidium
07:29:04  <Rubidium> dihedral: rather ...private_chat_server_hotkey_r20941.1.diff vs --- src/main_gui.cpp	(revision 20942)
07:29:23  <Rubidium> there, now you even have a fancy commit rev
07:29:58  <Rubidium> darnit...
07:30:03  <dihedral> :-D
07:30:10  <dihedral> sorry - did not want to steal that from you
07:30:16  <dihedral> i know how much you like those ^^
07:30:26  <Rubidium> not even reached 250 commits a month for the last 4 months (on average) :(
07:30:53  <Rubidium> @commit 18000
07:30:53  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by translators :: r18000 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2009-11-07 18:45:05 UTC)
07:30:54  * dihedral is happy about his second major feature in trunk :-)
07:30:55  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
07:30:56  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: greek - 1 changes by fumantsu
07:32:31  <Rubidium> so 3000 commits in a little less than 1 year, then given that r19k was somewhere early February the winter break seems more productive (or were it the many bugfixes due to the betas?)
07:33:53  <dihedral> how high are the download numbers of betas / rc's compared to nightlies?
07:35:34  <Rubidium> beta1: 37.5k, beta2-4: ~14.5k, rc1-3: ~13k, 1.0.0: 180k. Nightlies: average 217/day
07:36:09  <Rubidium> the post 1.0.0 rcs: ~3.5k
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07:43:30  <dihedral> personally i'd be of the impression that beta's and rc's would bring back more bug reports
07:44:38  <dihedral> sadly i see no rc or beta version under "Reported Version" in flyspray
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07:52:55  <Rubidium> dihedral: that's because there are no current betas/RCs
07:53:14  <Rubidium> FS#3651 definitely has a reported version that's an RC
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07:53:56  <Rubidium> although I have to agree that flyspray might be a bit dumb when it comes to searching on reported versions
07:54:16  <dihedral> i assumed so :-) but i was not able to see how many tasts were related to rc's :-)
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07:55:35  <Rubidium> as flyspray has only one option to show (or not show) betas/RCs and I think it'll be good for bug reporter usability when they'll see the 75 versions since 0.4.0
07:56:04  <Rubidium> even then, 1.0.5 is marked as "future" so how can it be a reported version (the really dumb part IMO)
07:56:54  <Rubidium> though, you can see the majority is reported on trunk
07:57:17  <dihedral> they have not brought out a new version in quite a while :-(
07:58:11  <Rubidium> that is definitely true and sad
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07:58:54  <Rubidium> but then it's not broken enough to bother with the hassle of migrating
08:03:32  <dihedral> that would probably be more work than it's worth
08:03:56  <dihedral> unless of course you by chance find something you really believe will do the job for the next x years
08:04:59  <Rubidium> well, bugzilla is unlikely to die any time soon
08:05:26  <Rubidium> but again, lots of work for migration
08:06:40  <Rubidium> likewise that we have a massive amount of plans for the compile farm and that it's riddled with annoyances
08:06:41  <dihedral> yep
08:06:50  <Rubidium> but again, lots of work for writing something new/better
08:07:27  <dihedral> you may not like the idea, but could a hudson cluster not be used for the compile farm?
08:08:09  <dihedral> esp. if you do a joint work with other projects, such as flightgear, you can share a bunch of resources - e.g. hudson nodes
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08:08:58  <Rubidium> wouldn't that require to "run" all compilers at once? Or at least all virtual machines with compilers?
08:11:07  <dihedral> you have a master, and nodes
08:11:32  <dihedral> the master has the queue for the nodes, and nodes can be ofline, even if the master holds it's queue and a job is waiting
08:11:40  <dihedral> when the node comes online, it will do it's job
08:12:01  <Rubidium> so that's basically what we do
08:12:02  <dihedral> there are plugins to start vm's when a job is enqueued, but they can be configured so that jobs run in a certain order
08:12:26  <Rubidium> except that here "master" starts the VMs directly
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08:12:52  <Rubidium> and "node" is the start script we "inject" using VirtualBox shares
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08:13:14  <dihedral> the downside is, it is java
08:13:15  <dihedral> :-P
08:13:37  <dihedral> however, it's a build / continuous integration system that already exists
08:13:41  <dihedral> has a huge community
08:14:02  <dihedral> and i have already written plugins for it :-P
08:14:48  <Rubidium> oh yes, did I tell our nodes don't have network connection?
08:15:26  <Rubidium> and that (sometimes) when we bring up the network connection of the (virtualbox) nodes the network connection with the internet gets broken?
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08:30:45  <dihedral> ouch ^^
08:32:07  <andythenorth> morning
08:32:16  * andythenorth ponders a day of daddy daycare
08:32:21  <dihedral> but then working around the actually issue instead of fixing it sounsd odd to me :-P
08:32:26  <andythenorth> will I code anything, or will it be wee all day?
08:32:42  <dihedral> andythenorth, bladder issues? :-D
08:33:07  <dihedral> refering to "wee all day?"
08:35:44  <andythenorth> his not mine
08:36:06  <andythenorth> wee, food, but most of all...entertainment :P
08:36:20  <andythenorth> watching me move pixels around is not very interesting apparently
08:36:33  <andythenorth> babies are very demanding :P
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08:38:53  <dihedral> no kidding ;-)
08:40:13  <dihedral> Rubidium, however, with hudson it would be easier to extend ^^
08:40:35  <dihedral> i.e. adding a node is quite simple - even for others, and the master server then just distributes the jobs
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09:43:10  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but playing toyland might help :)
09:43:21  <andythenorth> my baby has taste :P
09:46:02  <dihedral> harsh!
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09:47:04  <dihedral> as openttd is no clone anymore, does it have to remain 'toyland' ? :-P
09:47:37  <Rubidium> yes! :)
09:47:41  <dihedral> ^^
09:47:56  <Rubidium> it's good to play toyland on MP servers
09:48:06  <Rubidium> as it gets rid of most of the morons
09:48:06  <dihedral> why is that?
09:48:12  <dihedral> LOL
09:48:30  <dihedral> that for sure is true :-P
09:50:53  <_Terkhen_> and most of the other players too? :P
09:51:38  <_Terkhen_> this reminds me... now that andy fixed HEQS I could start another toyland game
09:52:46  <andythenorth> bleargh
09:53:08  <_Terkhen_> :D
09:53:22  <andythenorth> maybe I'll make toyland sprites for HEQS
09:53:26  <andythenorth> flashing boxes :P
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09:55:44  <_Terkhen_> toyland HEQS fork!
09:57:16  <xiong> !
09:58:38  <LordAro> toyland FISH fork! Rainbow coloured boxes! (I remember the beginning) :D
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10:02:22  <andythenorth> _Terkhen_: instead of forking newgrfs, how about vehicle orders? :P
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10:05:41  <_Terkhen_> I already started the modifications to the refit window, altough I doubt that partial refit orders end up being an option
10:08:54  <andythenorth> I'm not sure partial refit is needed
10:09:01  <andythenorth> I wonder how consists should work though...
10:09:07  <andythenorth> I'm not sure what the design should be for those
10:09:28  * _Terkhen_ does not know either
10:10:16  <andythenorth> maybe we figure it out
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10:11:12  <andythenorth> _Terkhen_: here's what I figure so far:
10:11:54  <andythenorth> (1) 'consists' are created explicitly by user.  They are like a master/slave system.  Vehicles slaved to a master consist will try and stay in sync with that consist.
10:12:10  <andythenorth> Vehicles don't have to slave to a master consist, they can just have 'their consist'
10:12:28  <andythenorth> (2) consists should be created by adapting existing depot drag system
10:13:01  <andythenorth> I think consists replace auto-replace, but not sure
10:13:37  <_Terkhen_> what information is stored into a consist? engines and wagons, refit selections for them... anything else?
10:13:48  <andythenorth> those things
10:14:03  <andythenorth> I reckon liveries are left out for various reasons
10:14:19  <andythenorth> mostly due to complexity
10:14:27  <dihedral> _Terkhen_, well you could patch the server to advertise toyland, where in trueth it's not :-D
10:14:27  <_Terkhen_> I don't know much about them anyways
10:14:38  <andythenorth> well they don't exist beyond a wish by users yet :)
10:14:55  <dihedral> that is actually quite a nifty idea - and those who know come back :-D
10:16:02  <_Terkhen_> dihedral: you could do that with a grf too :P
10:16:11  <dihedral> you could?
10:16:18  <dihedral> how would you do that??
10:16:38  <dihedral> i did not know grf's had that kind of manipulation possibilities
10:16:50  <planetmaker> <Rubidium> it's good to play toyland on MP servers <-- indeed. Lovely game atm on our PublicServer :-)
10:16:58  <planetmaker> hello all also :-)
10:17:03  <dihedral> hey :-)
10:17:18  <xiong> Hello, planetmaker.
10:17:21  <_Terkhen_> a grf that reimplements every industry and vehicle of the temperate climate and replaces all terrain sprites should work unless I'm forgetting something important
10:17:51  <dihedral> i would like to see how people respond when they notice that the server is advertised as toyland 64x64 and actually is temperate 1024x1024 ^^
10:18:06  <planetmaker> dihedral, did I see that correctly... talking to the server? :-)
10:18:19  <dihedral> yarp :-)
10:18:24  <planetmaker> seet :-)
10:18:33  <dihedral> ctrl+shift+enter or ctrl+shift+t :-)
10:18:44  <_Terkhen_> they would not respond, since they would not even enter that server
10:18:59  <xiong> May I talk a moment about consists? First I want to say that although the existing orders/shared orders/refit system is not perfect, it's okay and far superior to any other simulation I've seen.
10:19:04  <dihedral> _Terkhen_, or would be amused at it's site and wanted to see what it looks like :-P
10:19:11  <_Terkhen_> :)
10:19:20  <dihedral> could be a marketing idea :-D
10:20:10  <dihedral> xiong, what is not 'perfect' about it? :)
10:20:11  <xiong> But if you want to get into a consist system, I'd like to put in my two cents and say that, if you're going to go far that level of detail, go all the way. Don't think in terms so much of train-by-train consist as of cargo manifests.
10:20:58  <dihedral> i am happy i do not even touch that part of the code :-D
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10:22:02  <xiong> That is, manifest certain cargos -- percentages of available supply -- from origin to destination, passing perhaps several transfer points. Allocate trains as manifest workers on legs intermediate and define possible consists for them to assume. Let them assemble their consists in response to manifests. Otherwise, there is too much micromanagement.
10:23:06  <andythenorth> xiong: that would indeed be good :)
10:23:06  <_Terkhen_> I agree that shared orders have a series of problems (their "invisibility" being the most important one) and that the consist idea provides many benefits, but I'm not sure about the best way of tackling them
10:23:07  <xiong> Instead of constant refitting, which is extremely unprototypical, you require of the company owner that he buy and reserve cars for manifested cargo and keep them in depot as a pool from which auto-consist trains may draw.
10:24:01  <xiong> _Terkhen_, I have a background in systems design. I love micromanagement to a point but there's a time for the company owner to delegate. This is one of those times.
10:24:23  <fjb> Moin
10:24:56  <_Terkhen_> I can't see how having to deal with wagon changes reduces micromanagement
10:24:57  <xiong> For the utmost in realism, you require the building of a dispatch office at any station which will receive auto-consisting trains. After all, the engineer does not decide which cargo to pick up; it is the dispatcher's responsibility.
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10:25:54  <_Terkhen_> I prefer simple solutions that are fun ingame, this sounds overcomplicated to me
10:26:13  <xiong> Think of the dispatcher as a mini-AI. You allocate certain trains to his control and put certain manifests on his desk. The same manifest must go to each dispatcher in the network -- each dispatcher that might handle that cargo.
10:26:35  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 had automated dispatching
10:27:00  <andythenorth> you just left the consist at 'any cargo' and the game figured it out
10:27:19  <andythenorth> based on differential between spot prices for cargo at source and destination
10:27:26  <dihedral> <xiong> For the utmost in realism <- that is not going to go down very well
10:27:34  <dihedral> realisem is not the aim of this game
10:27:54  <dihedral> and perhaps someone might want to quote that - xiong has me on ignore :-D
10:28:04  <xiong> Not complicated at all, in play. You have already built the dispatch office; you have already created a manifest: (Goods from Verona to Altoona); now you just select the manifest and click on dispatch offices along the route. It's analogous to selecting a train and clicking stations.
10:28:12  * andythenorth wonders....what *is* the aim of this game?
10:28:27  <SmatZ> fun
10:28:43  <dihedral> "It attempts to mimic the original game as closely as possible while extending it with new features."
10:28:47  <planetmaker> ^ very much so: fun :-)
10:29:03  <andythenorth> what is 'fun' please?
10:29:06  <_Terkhen_> to me, adding new features that make it more fun to play, but without modifying the original feeling of the game
10:29:07  <planetmaker> realism is only used when it adds to fun :-)
10:29:07  <dihedral> if you are out for realism, i want tides :-P
10:29:31  <dihedral> ^^
10:29:42  <xiong> In fact, since the dispatcher must be associated with a station, it *is* clicking stations. The only difference is that you are not ordering a train from station to station; you are ordering a manifest of cargo from station to station -- in both cases along an incompletely-defined route.
10:29:44  <dihedral> and i want birds flying around
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10:29:54  <xiong> Same feel.
10:30:19  <dihedral> and i want longer build times
10:30:22  <dihedral> :-P
10:30:47  <dihedral> let the server pospone the docommands for, lets say, 1000 ticks :-P
10:30:50  <dihedral> for each tile
10:31:41  <_Terkhen_> xiong: IMO changing from ordering vehicles to ordering cargos is a huge change
10:31:41  <xiong> Now that I think of it, it's not even really necessary to click on stations. Presumably, every dispatcher sees the manifest of every cargo that hits his station; and each one decides the best way to forward manifested cargo toward its destination.
10:31:57  <xiong> It is. But then, so is consists.
10:32:31  <_Terkhen_> depends on your definition of the consist feature
10:32:33  <xiong> The question is, Are you concerned with cargo or with trains? It's tempting to say the latter but then, why all the complex industrial cargo chains?
10:33:01  <_Terkhen_> to make vehicle networks more complex
10:33:24  <planetmaker> :-)
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10:33:26  <xiong> I wouldn't want to trivialize trains or remove any existing functionality. It's up to the player how to allocate trains. Currently, all vehicles are in what is known in prototype roads as 'captive service'.
10:34:17  <xiong> No problem with retaining that, of course. You have a solid pair of industries, you connect them with rail, you throw 6 long trains between them in captive service.
10:34:49  <xiong> But when you have an odd box here, two odd bundles there, it's far more efficient to simply manifest them through to where you want them, ultimately, to go.
10:35:44  <Eddi|zuHause> what you say sounds like a hell of a lot of micromanagement
10:36:01  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Then I didn't explain it well.
10:36:11  <dihedral> he'll start again ^^
10:36:20  <xiong> What do you see as demanding player's attention?
10:36:37  <dihedral> the undo knob :-P
10:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you just used the word "click on..." too often...
10:37:56  <xiong> More I thought about it, less clicks I thought needed. At first I thought, click on stations. That's not only not necessary; it kinda defeats the point. Let me give a concrete example; that's usually best.
10:38:41  <xiong> Currently, I have a coal mine and an iron ore mine feeding a steel mill and a forge. The mill produces metal, for which right now I have no use; the forge produces farm and engineering supplies.
10:40:08  <xiong> I also have a sheep station, a stockyard, and a 'arable' farm.
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10:41:02  <xiong> So, I want to move many large trains of iron to both forge and mill and many long trains of coal to the steel mill only. I also want to move large quantities of sheep.
10:41:41  <xiong> But, I get relatively little farm and engineering supplies out, which I want to distribute to all the other industries, in various combinations.
10:42:20  <xiong> It makes sense, using the existing system, to place long trains in captive ore, coal, and livestock service. I refit those trains for that purpose.
10:43:47  <xiong> But to distribute the products of the forge, I'm more likely to want to manifest them to all consumers. So, I simply select the cargo (in a button off the station window for the forge) and click on a desired destination, creating a manifest.
10:44:37  <xiong> I don't see much entering of numbers here and maybe that would just be un-OTTD-like. So, let available cargo be distributed equally on outstanding manifests, which of course can be cancelled at any time.
10:44:54  <xiong> Right then, having created the manifest, I'm done with that part.
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10:45:17  <Mortomes|Work> andythenorth: Yeah, I liked that system in railroad tycoon 3
10:45:40  <Mortomes|Work> I liked the whole economy/pricing model in that game in general
10:46:37  <xiong> But trains must be available to move the cargo and they can't be in captive service. So, I buy new engines and new cars *but* I don't assemble them into a train; I keep them all in depot. I order the engineer to Report to Dispatcher, which can only be done at a station that has constructed a Dispatch Office -- one click.
10:47:48  * dihedral sometimes does wonder....
10:47:54  <xiong> I'm done, now; the dispatchers take it from there, no matter how many transfers my cargo must go through to get to where it's going. In station windows, just as now, manifested cargo carries a small indicator, so I know I can sort of not worry about it.
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10:48:33  <planetmaker> sounds at least three levels too complicated, xiong
10:48:41  <andythenorth> works in RT3
10:48:45  <xiong> Only because I'm explaining it in words.
10:48:51  <andythenorth> but requires a supply-demand economy in that game
10:48:58  <planetmaker> buy train, assign orders. done
10:49:02  <planetmaker> easy.
10:49:03  <andythenorth> might work with cargo packets
10:49:05  <xiong> No juju is required.
10:49:10  * _Terkhen_ agrees with planetmaker
10:49:31  <planetmaker> :-)
10:49:36  <xiong> Here it is buy engine, buy cars, assign to dispatcher. Then, manifest cargo; done.
10:49:52  <Mortomes|Work> openttd would be awesome with a rt3-like supply/demand economy
10:49:57  <planetmaker> which is two or three steps more. For the same task. Without extra fun
10:50:23  <xiong> If you don't see the extra fun, well, I dunno. Why do it at all?
10:50:23  <Mortomes|Work> The way it worked in rt3 was very simple
10:50:46  <planetmaker> xiong, in order to build a nice network :-)
10:50:47  <dihedral> sounds like it would make the game more boring
10:50:51  <Mortomes|Work> You just set the train to auto-consist and it would always take the most profitable type of cargo between destinations
10:50:57  <andythenorth> it's good
10:51:00  <planetmaker> not in order to micro-manage each vehicle along its build process
10:51:02  <xiong> I mean, you can have a much simpler model in which cargos just naturally move to where they're going and all you have to do is throw money at them.
10:51:02  <andythenorth> but it's not TTD :)
10:51:17  * dihedral nods
10:51:20  <planetmaker> ^
10:51:22  <_Terkhen_> ^
10:51:27  <dihedral> ^
10:51:29  <dihedral> hihi
10:51:36  <Mortomes|Work> v
10:51:37  <_Terkhen_> that is IMO a core part of TTD
10:51:40  <xiong> You can build a nice model without giving a single thought to realistic operation.
10:51:56  <dihedral> how about you explain it in a patch :-P
10:52:20  <xiong> I don't say that's wrong, either. But real trains do not form up and roll around the country year after year without breaking up in a yard.
10:52:29  <xiong> Or rather, they do -- but not all of them.
10:52:29  <andythenorth> ttd is about being massively frustrated by network capacity :D
10:52:38  <planetmaker> hehe
10:52:39  <andythenorth> ttd also encourages lots of unit trains
10:52:49  <planetmaker> unit trains?
10:53:09  <andythenorth> single cargo, point-point, no backloads
10:53:09  <andythenorth> return empty to destination usually
10:53:10  <xiong> Unit trains are those in captive service. As usual, competing jargon.
10:53:22  <andythenorth> mine -> steel mill and return empty
10:53:34  <planetmaker> ah
10:53:46  <andythenorth> backloading would be silly
10:54:01  * planetmaker likes the possibility to refit trains in order to make two-way trips :-)
10:54:16  <xiong> These are common and profitable in prototype. You have a gravel pit and a cement factory; you haul gravel one way, all day, all night, year after year.
10:54:18  <andythenorth> yeah, but it requires balanced cargo production
10:54:26  <xiong> You take nothing back to the gravel pit.
10:54:31  <planetmaker> or appropriate orders, andythenorth :-)
10:54:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: if there were partial load orders, that would help
10:54:53  <planetmaker> yes, it would
10:54:57  <andythenorth> I don't get the more complicated conditional orders
10:54:58  <planetmaker> don't look at me!
10:55:01  <planetmaker> :-P
10:55:19  <andythenorth> is timetabling a suitable hack for partial loads?  I wondered if 'wait 10 days' is about same as 'wait for 50% cargo'
10:55:25  <_Terkhen_> planetmaker: two way trips is what makes me keep thinking about partial refit orders, even if they raise too many problems
10:55:33  <andythenorth> ships particularly
10:55:35  <xiong> But -- and this is the key point -- you do, very likely, haul small amounts of machinery to the gravel pit. You don't do that with the unit train. You do that with a 'train' that is really just an entry in the timetable. It makes up what's available at each station.
10:55:46  <andythenorth> xiong: do it with a truck :)
10:55:49  <planetmaker> _Terkhen_, yes, they'd make sense there (too). Though even w/o refit you can have mixed trains
10:55:57  <andythenorth> I was trying to figure out how to do wayfreights / manifest trains / mixed freight
10:56:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth, timetabling can help there, yes
10:56:10  <planetmaker> unless the cargo influx is too big
10:56:20  <andythenorth> manifest trains should be possible, but I've never figured out how
10:56:24  <planetmaker> so it's not really an adequate replacement
10:56:25  <_Terkhen_> the biggest problem with partial refit orders is that they refer to a part of the train... what if the train changes?
10:56:59  <planetmaker> _Terkhen_, well... same thing as with what if the station is bulldozed: invalid orders
10:57:49  <planetmaker> I see though that it can be more painful
10:58:02  <_Terkhen_> if a station is bulldozed, all shared orders are invalid
10:58:05  <andythenorth> _Terkhen_: 'refit to consist'
10:58:16  <_Terkhen_> if a single train is changed, only that train has invalid orders
10:59:27  <_Terkhen_> andythenorth: that is what makes me want to forget about partial refit orders... partial refit will be useful to define consists anyways, and saying that this should be done as refit to consist orders when they are available would save me the trouble
11:00:32  <xiong> Are you guys thinking about being able to give orders to single cars?
11:00:42  <andythenorth> exactly :)
11:00:54  * dihedral nods
11:00:54  <_Terkhen_> hm?
11:01:13  <andythenorth> xiong: no
11:01:17  <andythenorth> that would be interesting
11:01:23  <xiong> Then, that is basically a manifest system. Why not just do it on the basis of cargo, not on cars, which are, from one viewpoint, interchangeable?
11:01:24  <andythenorth> but probably unworkable :)
11:01:39  <andythenorth> xiong: try cargo dist / dest / whichever :P
11:01:40  <dihedral> because it is too much work to code :-P
11:01:50  <andythenorth> it's in the openttd development forum
11:02:07  * xiong looks
11:02:53  <_Terkhen_> to me, consists are just vehicle templates... you can clone them, refit to them and so on
11:03:06  <_Terkhen_> or am I missing something?
11:03:39  <andythenorth> no
11:03:48  <andythenorth> templates to match to
11:04:25  <_Terkhen_> what is the difference?
11:05:51  <andythenorth> nothing
11:05:54  <xiong> This ( is much like manifesting but it adds the demand of certain cargos to go to certain destinations -- in fact, I think the latter is the main point and the auto-routing subservient to it.
11:06:55  <xiong> I dunno about this. In theory, one could just throw a large number of trains on the layout, sit back and wait for it all to sort out. There's no real management at all of cargo.
11:07:03  <xiong> ... or trains, really.
11:07:27  <xiong> Is that what you're thinking of, andythenorth?
11:09:43  <xiong> Forum link: (, with 99 pages of posts. (!)
11:10:21  <xiong> If this is the topic I barged in upon, I'm going to barge right out. I've wasted time trying to divert that train.
11:11:55  <dihedral> the cargo will only "want" to go to destinations to which a train connection (possibly via transfers) exists - irrc
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11:20:36  <norbert79> Afternoon
11:31:16  <SmatZ> hello norbert79
11:31:21  <norbert79> Hey SmatZ
11:31:23  <xiong> Okay, now I'm totally confused. I just got an alert that Verona Coal/Sheep now accepts Mail.
11:32:03  <norbert79> That is why vulcans never play OpenTTD. :)
11:32:36  <Rubidium> Tele2...
11:32:58  <xiong> The station's catchment area, I have just checked, certainly does not include even a single house. Verona itself is piddling (pop 391, not all of which is in its station's catchment) and accepts no mail at all.
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11:34:09  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe your catchment area is larger than you think it is
11:34:36  <xiong> I checked.
11:35:13  <xiong> If it included all of Verona, then it wouldn't be enough, right? It doesn't reach one house.
11:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have an irregular station, the catchment area is the smallest rectangle that contains the whole station
11:35:52  <Rubidium> as I said, Tele2:
11:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> plus the radius (4 for train stations, 5 if it contains a dock, more for some airports
11:36:26  <xiong> *That's* interesting, nothing I've seen documented. But doesn't affect this. The coal mine and sheep farm are nearly adjacent. The station is contiguous.
11:36:31  <norbert79> Rubidium: I don't get the sheep part... :)
11:36:52  <norbert79> Rubidium: Oh, wait, I think I got it :)
11:37:00  <Rubidium> norbert79: it's what Tele2 advertises with
11:37:18  <norbert79> Rubidium: Yeah, and the sheep... Ok, I missed part of the conversation, now I get it :)
11:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: it gets worse than that, with irregular stations, the catchment area is different depending if you're delivering or picking up cargo :p
11:37:50  <xiong> Wait. I lied. I forgot I built an extension truck stop. Still, it can't possibly catch more than the bus station central to the town itself.
11:38:04  <xiong> ?
11:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> for delivering, the rectangle around the station (plus radius) counts, for picking up, the rectangle around the house/industry (plus radius) counts
11:38:50  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, That is illogical, definitely not anything I've seen documented. It may be realistic, dunno.
11:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's nothing to do with realism, it's a technical problem
11:39:47  <xiong> Where 'plus radius' is what? The radius of the station part at which X is being delivered?
11:40:14  <xiong> Do you mean addition or geometric union?
11:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the catchment radius. i explained above
11:40:46  <Eddi|zuHause> try building a station, and enable "display catchment area"
11:41:25  <xiong> I have. It always displays the catchment of the station part being built. I'd very much like to display catchment of the already-built stations.
11:41:48  <xiong> Although if it's variable, then dunno; some color-coding is called for.
11:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, complain to svippy for not finishing his patch... twice...
11:42:11  <xiong> Actually, it's worse than that for overlapping catchment areas.
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11:42:48  <xiong> One really wants to be able to toggle it on and off for each station, so one can figure it out.
11:43:54  <Yexo> <- the marked area is the catchment area for accepting cargo by the station
11:44:44  <Yexo> so although neither the train station tile nor the bus stop is in reach of either the powerstation or the town, it'll still accept passengers, mail and coal
11:44:51  <norbert79> Yexo: Which also depends on the value set within 'Advanced settings'
11:45:37  <Yexo> norbert79: in this case actually not
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11:46:15  <norbert79> Yexo: Why? I thought, that one station in this case is being treated as the 'start' of the station, and the other the end, and between the area cannot be higher, than the predefined
11:46:19  <Yexo> with "more realistically sized catchment areas" on: both bus stops and train stations have a catchment radius of 4, when turned of the bus stop has a radius of 3 and the train statino still 4
11:46:24  <xiong> My question, though, had nothing to do with display. Assume a town has a bus station part, radius 4; and a train grain loading station, radius 5. Assume that some tile of a coal mine overlaps some tile of this catchment.
11:46:35  <Yexo> the catchment radius of the station is the maximum catchment radius of any part of the station
11:46:42  <Yexo> and max(4, 3) == max(4, 4)
11:47:00  <xiong> Sorry; counting that way, radii of 3 and 4.
11:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if the truck stop is connected to a rail station, its radius is promoted to 4 as well
11:47:30  <norbert79> Yexo: More realistic would be if the catchment size would be only those two catchment areas, which are being defined for this station, I mean twice the same small area
11:47:30  <Yexo> xiong: please provide a screenshot and/or savegame
11:47:46  <xiong> Yexo, Your explanation is lucid and logical and the drawing self-explanatory. It's Eddi|zuHause's that makes no sense to me.
11:48:02  <xiong> Okay, wait.
11:48:13  <Yexo> xiong: I explained the same (only with a screenshot) as Eddi|zuHause did
11:48:32  <Yexo> norbert79: I won't argue with that, I'm just explaining how the current implementation works
11:48:49  <xiong> If the bus stop is connected to a giant airport with a radius of 10, does the bus stop also get promoted to a radius of 10?
11:48:52  <norbert79> Yexo: Yeah, thanks for that, helped me also a bit understanding it a bit more this way
11:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, xiong
11:49:08  <Yexo> xiong: for accepting cargo: yes
11:49:11  <xiong> Okay, great.
11:49:24  <xiong> But for dropping cargo...?
11:49:32  <Yexo> not sure
11:49:41  <xiong> Yexo, You are saying that the shot you just posted applies only to pickup.
11:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> dropping is the same as accepting?
11:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> no, only to delivery
11:50:05  <xiong> Accepting, Eddi|zuHause. You say it's different, then?
11:50:08  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly, wanted to mention. I think xiong was more referring to "creating"
11:50:11  <Yexo> xiong: that screenshot only applies to "Cargo types which the station accepts"
11:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause> for pickup, the radius around the industry counts
11:50:27  <Yexo> so you order your trains to unload those cargos there
11:50:44  <xiong> Okay, Eddi|zuHause; now I'm asking, *which* radius around the industry.
11:51:38  <Yexo> xiong: in that case actually the radius of the station _part_ is used, not of the complete station
11:51:40  <xiong> Do you mean to add, as a border all around the industry, an additional 4 or whatever tiles? Or do you mean to have the industry extend the bounding box so that it remains a rectangle?
11:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the algorithm works as follows: the industry checks a radius "max_catchment_area" around it, if it contains a station tile, and then allows moving cargo to that station if catchment_radius for that station tile includes the industry
11:52:25  <xiong> Yexo, That is yet a third possibility and I have to ask then if by 'station part' you mean the part doing the unloading?
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11:52:36  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Even though it's one tile only, right?
11:52:40  <Yexo> xiong: no, any station part
11:52:51  <Yexo> ie what Eddi|zuHause explained in more words
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11:52:54  <Yexo> norbert79: yes
11:53:03  <norbert79> Yexo: Ok, thanks, I wasn't just 100% sure
11:53:43  <norbert79> Yexo: As an improvment idea it would be nice if the algorythm could check how mnany tiles are being covered by the station radius, the more tiles are there, the more stuff is being delivered to the specific station :)
11:53:46  <xiong> Okay, then let my try it this way: For loading, the catchment is the smallest bounding box. For unloading, it is the union of the industry footprint and all the station part footprints, which may be irregular or full of holes?
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11:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
11:54:35  <xiong> No thanks, norbert79; I'm happy to be able to grab a corner of a remote industry and have it all.
11:54:52  <norbert79> xiong: That would be more challenging ;-)
11:54:54  <xiong> Sorry; I wrote wrong.
11:56:22  <xiong> Okay, tFor loading, the catchment is the smallest bounding box. For unloading, it is the union of the industry footprint and all the station part footprints plus their radii, which total may be irregular or full of holes. The radius of each station part is promoted to the radius of the most extensive station part, for both loading and unloading.
11:56:26  <norbert79> and to even make it more interesting: tiles which do notr provide additional functionality to a station (like those eye candy elements) should not enrlage the station's acceptence area when such a tile is set, like an animation of a truck for a coal train-station
11:57:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21001 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#4170] (r20936): clients were not always notified of a player leaving the game
11:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: you need "objects" for that
11:57:45  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, true... But with objects you have the issue not being able to remove them, well, not always
11:57:57  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Like the boyes
11:58:08  <norbert79> or how are those spelled
11:58:13  <Rubidium> buoy?
11:58:16  <norbert79> thank you
11:58:19  <norbert79> exactly
11:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: non-track station tiles are an evolved thing that is not really optimal, but is kept around for backwards compatibility
11:58:30  <dihedral> i can only imagine when that got introduced :-P
11:58:49  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I like them though, it gives that plus 'realism', being able to decorate my stations
11:59:30  <dihedral> 2) OpenTTD doesn't do IRC, so it might very well be something wrong with the bot <- always blame it on the bot, yeah yeah :-P
11:59:34  <xiong> Yexo, Let's play Make a Deal. I will take a fairish number of small shots and outline on them where I now think the catchment may be. I will tarball them up and you check them, mark the wrong ones 'WRONG'. I will put together some sort of wiki documentation page on the topic. Sound rational?
12:00:04  <Yexo> <Yexo> xiong: in that case actually the radius of the station _part_ is used, not of the complete station <- after some testing it seems I was wrong there and it's actually the station radius of the complete station
12:00:17  <Yexo> xiong: great :)
12:00:29  <xiong> Argh.
12:00:52  <xiong> Then what's the difference between pickup catchment and acceptance catchment?
12:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the irregularity
12:01:12  <xiong> Ah. Okay.
12:01:27  <Yexo> acceptance catchment is a rectangle around the complete station + the catchment area
12:01:31  <xiong> And this acceptance catchment *varies* with the type of cargo delivered, right?
12:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no, cargo type is irrelevant
12:02:02  <Yexo> pickup catchment is the union of (for every tile: rectangle around tile + catchment radius)
12:02:37  <xiong> Whoa! Yexo, you just suggested that the industry footprint itself didn't count. I thought Eddi|zuHause said that it did.
12:03:11  <Yexo> hmm, my last statement wasn't completely correct indeed
12:03:14  <Rubidium> dihedral: "by comparing activity on irc and ingame, it seems that when players left the game on irc the client is not notified about that" <- well, I read that as: the fact that the client is leaving is not notified on IRC
12:03:48  <dihedral> yeah - it was misleading that for sure is true :-)
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12:03:58  <dihedral> however i did kinda get what he was on about :-D
12:04:09  <dihedral> sadly only noticed the fs task now
12:04:25  <xiong> Okay, then. Let me not waste you guys' time further on this talk, which is very difficult. I'm very good at phrasing things formally but only when I know what I mean. For gathering data, the experimental method will work best. I will get started on some shots.
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12:04:52  <Rubidium> that's why my comment #1 was: I don't understand the sentence, followed by #2: you're talking about IRC, that's not something OpenTTD does so there must be some bot involved
12:05:17  <avdg> I typed to fast :)
12:05:29  <norbert79> xiong: We are all curious, since this would also affect my games too... I like mostly placing stations near industries, or accepting areas, but it's not always possible, so I would be happy to see how this could be addressed.
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12:06:55  <dihedral> Rubidium, i was just trying to tease you ;-)
12:07:13  <Rubidium> should I go PFY on you?
12:07:26  <xiong> I can see now this is going to change radically my station placement. I have already exploded my current system anyway as too hard to figure out, with multiple overlapping stations.
12:08:21  <xiong> For big cities, it's just madness. I won't show you a shot of Shirleysburg to illustrate because I really have no clear idea which station parts belong to which stations and 4 of them now refer to the town.
12:08:37  <xiong> Proper Planning Prevents Problems.
12:08:51  <norbert79> xiong: If you have the money :)
12:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong, norbert79: you might try to check this out:
12:09:59  <xiong> Well, at first, of course, I was nearly broke. I put one bus stop almost at city center and another to cover a side.
12:10:28  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Nice, thank you
12:11:12  <xiong> Then, the city grew so large in relation to its neighbors that the only way I could think of to quiet the pax was to provide local service inside the city itself. So, another couple of bus stops forming a second logical station.
12:12:21  <xiong> Later, rail and truck stops added. Then streetcar (tram) stops, both pax and freight. Now I have 2, maybe 3 stops on some blocks (the misnamed 3x3 grid) and no way at all to tell which belong to what. )
12:13:45  <xiong> Let me work on this shots so that Yexo can pass judgement. In fact, what I will do is post them to a forum thread; since I can edit my own posts, I can take down the bad ones and rewrite the text.
12:14:00  <xiong> Then everyone can get into the act.
12:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- catchment areas. the dark area is for picking up, the light area also for dropping off
12:15:43  <Yexo> xiong: one screenshot for you:
12:18:06  <avdg> train stations have a bigger radius right?
12:18:34  <Yexo> 4
12:19:20  <dihedral> <Rubidium> should I go PFY on you? <- no ;-)
12:19:48  <Yexo> bus/truck stops: 3, train stations: 4, docks: 5, airports: custom. When "Allow more relistically sized catchment areas" is off, then all stations have catchment radius 4
12:19:48  <avdg> oh, nvm I missed a comment
12:20:10  <Eddi|zuHause> truck/bus: 3, train: 4, dock: 5, airport: varies from 4 to 10 [or so]
12:20:18  <xiong> Dunno, Yexo; that's very well done. Should I try to improve on it?
12:20:44  <Yexo> feel free, if you think it's clear enough put it in the wiki (maybe crop it first though) and write a text to accompany it
12:20:49  <Yexo> if you can improve it please do so
12:20:51  <xiong> It's not totally unambiguous but I think I get the drift.
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12:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the thread i linked to contains a patch that is supposed to visualize these areas
12:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not tested the patch
12:21:31  <xiong> Let me ask one question about it: If the oil wells are taken to accept some sort of cargo, does this station accept it?
12:21:46  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: it doesn't vizualize the example with the oil wells though, you still have to know that
12:22:01  <Yexo> xiong: no
12:22:07  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: no. it must contain an actual industry tile that accepts 8/8 of the cargo
12:22:08  <xiong> Um.
12:22:10  <Yexo> because no tile of the oil well is within the dark red area
12:22:46  <xiong> Also, your sketch shows no holes. I can improve with a more aggressive example.
12:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the power station is in the hole
12:23:12  <xiong> But first I will post little shots to clarify the rules, before I attempt the big explanation.
12:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: if the power station would produce something, it would not be transportable
12:23:35  <Yexo> xiong: another point: if the power station produced something, you wouldn't be able to pick it up from the station
12:25:18  <xiong> That is the reverse of how I phrased it earlier. You say, pickup, holes -- union of footprints plus station part radii. Accept, no holes, bounding box.
12:25:44  <xiong> Complicated that irregular industries also have bounding boxes, which count for pickup but not for acceptance.
12:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, play around with the above patch
12:27:20  <norbert79> I just wish all useful pacthes would come into mainline, like the one you just showed Eddi|zuHause :)
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12:27:46  <xiong> Um, no thanks, actually, as much as I want it. I've never installed a patch yet or built from source. I have to keep to some limits or else I will fall into some variant where I'm playing on Mars and green slime is eating my dune buggies.
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12:28:07  <dihedral> :-D
12:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: well, it's not my fault that the author disappears before the patch is finished
12:28:12  <xiong> Let me get to work. This may take a day or two.
12:28:23  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Agree on that :)
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12:28:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and he did it twice...
12:28:37  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Annoying...
12:32:17  <xiong> Meanwhile, I think I've made progress with bigsig-003: (
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12:37:24  <dihedral> \o/ party balloons
12:37:25  <dihedral> :-P
12:37:44  <dihedral> i prefered the one from the post above i must say
12:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the colours seem awfully messed up
12:39:12  <_Terkhen_> my favourite was the first one
12:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't make any sense of these pictures...
12:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll stay with the original signals...
12:40:32  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I am also for more real signals and their functions, than something new, but some might kinda like it
12:41:35  <dihedral> i would try to combine the arrow and one of the green lights in
12:41:59  <dihedral> or one of the lights in general - does not have to be one of the green ones
12:44:06  <xiong> Magic Bulldozer isn't really, is it? It's really Magic Demolish?
12:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause> magic dynamite
12:45:11  <norbert79> xiong: It's a kind of magic... :)
12:45:21  <dihedral> it bypasses some 'conditions'
12:45:49  <xiong> Well, the graphics for Demolish no longer look like dynamite; now they look like a bomb.
12:45:55  <norbert79> xiong: To say it simple: it allows you removing industrial parts, or sprites, like antenna
12:46:18  <norbert79> xiong: Within OpenGFX maybe, but using the original sprites, it's a dynamite
12:46:21  <xiong> In this game though, Demolish and Bulldoze have different, specific meanings.
12:47:17  <xiong> You can doze only the NE-SW part of a road while leaving the NW-SE part of the same tile untouched. Demolish takes all.
12:47:54  <norbert79> xiong: and magic demolish/dynamite removed such, as everything, what you cannot normally demolish
12:47:59  <xiong> If it were truly a Magic Bulldozer, you'd be able to clip off just one corner of an industry.
12:48:09  <Noldo> :D
12:48:51  <norbert79> that wouldn't make too much sense :)
12:49:18  <Noldo> that would be New Magic Bulldozer
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12:49:38  <norbert79> Noldo: That would be just plain silly :)
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12:50:00  <Noldo> and the one that reads your mind and demolishes the thing you want is Yet Another Magic Bulldozer
12:50:24  <norbert79> ok, lets not overcomplicate this, shall we? :D
12:51:29  <planetmaker> err... norbert79 why do _you_ review the German translation?
12:51:38  <planetmaker> (I thought you were Hungarian)
12:52:43  <planetmaker> I don't mind, I'm just astonished :-)
12:52:51  <norbert79> planetmaker: Because I speak it :)
12:53:03  <planetmaker> good. Then get working on updating it :-)
12:53:05  <norbert79> planetmaker: Was the first language I learned
12:53:14  <planetmaker> your mother tongue?
12:53:21  <norbert79> planetmaker: I am doing it, I am on it, but I need a reply to my entry in forum
12:53:30  <planetmaker> you got it
12:53:31  <norbert79> planetmaker: Hungarian... Then gewrman followed, later english
12:53:58  <norbert79> I almost failed in English back in high-school, because of German :D
12:54:11  <norbert79> I couldn't just get use to the English grammar :)
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12:54:25  <planetmaker> though... usually we want people who grew up with the language as translators
12:55:02  <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, if it's a problem, it's fair, yet I really don't mind helping out
12:55:08  <planetmaker> :-)
12:55:16  <planetmaker> I wouldn't mind someone fixing that.
12:55:24  <norbert79> so post 1998 then, right?
12:55:28  <planetmaker> In principle I know the rules, but I grew up with the old ones
12:55:34  <norbert79> Same here
12:55:36  <dihedral> ^^
12:55:43  <planetmaker> So I don't recognize the old ones as 'wrong' or outdated
12:55:56  <norbert79> me neither, but just for the heck of it
12:56:43  <norbert79> I was grown up with German television, media, beein in contact often daily basis with Germans...
12:56:57  <norbert79> Like with you guys ;-)
12:57:03  <planetmaker> :-D
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13:04:34  <planetmaker> well, then go right ahead, norbert79 :-)
13:04:44  <planetmaker> Any help there's welcome
13:05:27  <norbert79> planetmaker: Thank you! Yeah, will review the rules, just to refresh my memory, and will start translating
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13:09:52  <Belugas> hello
13:09:59  <norbert79> Hello there Belugas
13:10:15  <planetmaker> hello sir Belugas
13:10:25  <andythenorth> moo
13:10:30  <Belugas> hi hi boyz and mem
13:10:36  <planetmaker> woof andythenorth
13:10:44  <andythenorth> dogcow?
13:11:02  <planetmaker> just an alien with a strange accent
13:11:04  <andythenorth>
13:11:10  <andythenorth> moof
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13:49:52  <dihedral> Rubidium, what say you to a custom kick message?
13:50:05  <dihedral> i mean in the game
13:50:21  <planetmaker> in what way custom?
13:50:22  <dihedral> which gets displayed to the client in the read box
13:50:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you have very german grammar today ;)
13:50:40  <planetmaker> :-P
13:50:48  <dihedral> server command accepts an optional further parameter holding the message which in trun is then displayed in the clients error window
13:51:32  <planetmaker> I rather need the full command log ;-)
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13:52:06  <planetmaker> when a client cares to know he'll be online anyway and I can talk to him (or her. But I guess I never kicked a her from an OpenTTD game)
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13:53:12  <dihedral> using irc as a reference - i believe the message is 'the last word'
13:53:39  <dihedral> was just an idea
13:55:37  <dihedral> it could esp. be useful with an automated kick via the admin network ^^
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14:04:09  <norbert79> Ok, have to go for now, see you all later!
14:04:16  <norbert79> bye everyone
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14:05:25  <planetmaker> dihedral, I see the point, yes :-)
14:05:50  <dihedral> automated kicking might not be a favourable something anyway :-P
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14:06:06  <planetmaker> well :-)
14:06:21  <planetmaker> I'm sure we'll find plenty of "needed" additions ;-)
14:06:30  <dihedral> hehe
14:06:40  <planetmaker> for certain definitions of "needed" :-P
14:06:43  <dihedral> :-P
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14:51:45  * Belugas mumbles and silently swear at "support team"
14:51:50  <Belugas> dunno what they support
14:51:59  <Belugas> other then the telephne, that is..
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15:02:59  <dihedral> perhaps they support the customers to reach the developers  :-P
15:04:34  <Belugas> to that, they are so freeaking good!
15:04:42  <dihedral> ^^
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16:03:06  <norbert79> Evening
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16:19:57  <SmatZ> hello norbert79
16:20:04  <norbert79> hey SmatZ
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16:50:33  <dihedral> oi's :)
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17:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i always thought my old computer had an onboard VGA, but apparently it doesn't...
17:17:32  <__ln__> onboard EGA then?
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17:29:10  <andythenorth> evening
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17:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and apparently new cpu coolers don't fit on old cpus
17:32:47  <Rubidium> then you haven't used enough force yet
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17:35:19  <andythenorth> more glue
17:35:55  * andythenorth ponders some work
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17:40:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so... if it explodes now, i applied the force the wrong way
17:40:59  <__ln__> the force will guide you
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17:43:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21002 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:43:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:43:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 14 changes by lmartinking
17:43:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by norbert79
17:43:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic
17:43:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: thai - 255 changes by reindeeruz
17:48:27  <norbert79> that will be more later
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17:57:36  <andythenorth> _Terkhen_: does HEQS support the toyland sugar climate?
17:57:49  <andythenorth> I have some weird white load sprites that I know not the purpose of
17:58:00  <andythenorth> sugar cargo /s
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18:02:10  <Wolf01> hello
18:03:06  <davis> hi
18:03:32  <zachanima> oh
18:03:32  <zachanima> no
18:10:28  <davis> hm?
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18:19:15  <davis> , is there some kind of tool that creates such maps?
18:21:55  <Rubidium> it's called visio
18:22:27  <TrueBrain> would be one awesome OpenTTD plugin :D
18:22:44  <davis> I just thought that TrueBrain
18:22:46  <davis> thanks Rubidium
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18:27:21  <TrueBrain> fits in the idea of cargodist/cargodest
18:27:32  <TrueBrain> you just need to resolve the network, and make a 'fair' map out of it
18:27:43  <TrueBrain> should be interesting to make an open source implementation out of that (if it doesn't exist already)
18:27:43  <andythenorth> that is pretty good
18:27:51  <andythenorth> there must be a graph tool
18:27:54  <TrueBrain> relative straight-forward, yet a few nasty pitfalls
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18:30:48  <norbert79> Ehm, one advise: Visio is great, but costs a lot, and a bit complicated. I would recommend Inkscape, which is a professional vector-graphic tool, and OpenSource too...
18:31:15  <norbert79> I know, it wasn't merely designed for network-layout creation, but it's very efficient, fast and also for free
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18:34:24  <TrueBrain> hmm .. does Visio cost a lot? I wonder why I have it for free then ... :D :p
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18:39:16  <Wolf01> TrueBrain, but that system fits better with routes instead of the (shared) orders since it's line-based and not vehicle-based
18:39:44  <TrueBrain> 'that system'
18:39:48  <TrueBrain> I love unclear references :)
18:39:57  <TrueBrain> which one you refer to? :)
18:41:48  <norbert79> TrueBrain: Well, I really emphasize people for OpenSource, since it gets developed, just like OpenTTD, also helps innovation and gives you also a powerful tool where with Visio your knowledge will be limited to closed source and to one OS
18:41:55  <norbert79> TrueBrain: But have it as you wish :)
18:42:20  <norbert79> TrueBrain: Besides, having Inkscape copied is legal :P
18:42:20  <TrueBrain> norbert79: I suggest to install a be-less-serious mode in your OS :)
18:42:43  <norbert79> TrueBrain: Nah,I just like things open, and legal :)
18:43:02  <Eddi|zuHause> afair celestar built a graphviz export into cargodest
18:43:16  <TrueBrain> well, there you go davis :)
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18:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it didn't look as well as that picture above, though
18:45:47  <TrueBrain> room for improvement :)
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18:46:42  <Eddi|zuHause> graphviz doesn't have good algorithms for this
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18:50:35  <TrueBrain> it has a simple export format
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18:50:49  <TrueBrain> but yeah, one could even do a bachelor project on this, I guess :)
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19:49:10  <dihedral> :-P
19:49:31  <Wolf01> eheh
19:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause> more chuck than ever before!
19:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> "NBC has ordered another 11 episode, totalling 24 episodes this season"
19:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> *episodes
19:52:15  <Rubidium> woohoo! :)
19:54:41  <Rubidium> at least he's better than the other chuck that shall not be named :)
19:55:55  <Rubidium> dihedral: nah, that would be too much effort
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19:56:09  <Rubidium> need to handle spammers and such. I rather offload that to someone else
19:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean he who counted to infinity twice? ;)
19:56:23  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:31  * andythenorth has an interesting HEQS trams problem
19:56:48  <Rubidium> andythenorth: want to get rid of it?
19:57:00  <andythenorth> the problem or the trams?
19:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem, i hope ;)
19:57:17  <Rubidium> either?
19:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause> on the other hand, V was cut down from 13 to 10 episodes
19:57:54  <Rubidium> just "sell" HEQS to someone else to support. Then you got rid of the problem
19:58:04  * andythenorth sells HEQS to rubidium
19:58:26  * Belugas is still pissed off that they cut out the Earth 2 show
19:58:37  <andythenorth> the tram problem is with load sprites
19:58:48  <Belugas> not to mention Defying Gravity
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19:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Earth 2? is that like 15 years ago?
19:59:38  <Rubidium> Firefly!
19:59:55  <dihedral> Rubidium> dihedral: nah, that would be too much effort <- yep - flightgear does it, i do not know why, but they do it :-P
20:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Defying Gravity was a little sad, i agree...
20:00:19  * andythenorth awaits HEQS support from rubidium
20:00:41  * Rubidium is happy he isn't rubidium :)
20:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so... what's the actual problem?
20:01:17  <andythenorth> rubidium sells HEQS to Rubidium
20:01:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: vehicles showing the sprites aren't the vehicles holding the cargo
20:01:46  <andythenorth> so loaded sprites don't show
20:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ah...
20:01:57  *** Joni_ is now known as Joni-
20:02:19  <andythenorth> it's resolvable, but fiddly
20:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so... you need to make the vehicles that are hidden 0 capacity, and the ones that show non-0 capacity
20:02:27  <andythenorth> yes
20:02:33  <andythenorth> which is a few more varaction 2s
20:03:04  * Rubidium sells HEQS to SpBot
20:03:05  <andythenorth> or we code rv-wagons :P
20:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> just make the capacity callback do the same calculations as the show-callback
20:03:21  <andythenorth> yes
20:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> should be mostly copy-paste
20:03:27  <andythenorth> or we code rv-wagons
20:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i have two administrative problems... first, ntp seems to be started twice on boot, causing some trouble... second, how do i "autostart" an nx session on the server?
20:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root  6 Apr 27 07:23 K13ntp -> ../ntp
20:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root  6 Apr 27 07:23 S09ntp -> ../ntp
20:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the meaning of these?
20:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> they are both in /etc/init.d/rc5.d/
20:11:52  <Rubidium> one for starting, one for killing?
20:11:59  <_Terkhen_> andythenorth: I don't remember if there are cargo sprites used explicitly for sugar, let me check
20:12:23  <_Terkhen_> I do know that there is no complete sprite support for toyland, but given your opinions about this I never asked for complete support :P
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20:14:29  <dihedral> Rubidium, is this ok?
20:15:37  <planetmaker> dihedral: 1. Joinint the network
20:15:45  <andythenorth> good night
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20:15:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: are you sure about that? ... this doesn't really explain why it's started twice
20:16:29  <planetmaker> port 3970? I thought 3977?
20:17:52  <frosch123> night
20:17:54  <planetmaker>   Forther, sending a 'say' command (or any similar command) will not recurse <-- further
20:17:57  <planetmaker> g'night frosch123
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20:18:04  <planetmaker> ha :-) fast enough :-)
20:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or the network lagged ;)
20:19:49  <Rubidium> dihedral: I'll look at it somewhat later
20:19:56  <dihedral> :-)
20:20:06  <dihedral> i'll update it again :-)
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20:20:59  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, on my system the shutdown scripts start with K, the startup scripts with S
20:21:08  <SpComb> kill
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20:21:31  <Rubidium> although all K scripts are in rc[06].d, the S scripts in rc[1-5S].d
20:21:43  <dihedral> lucky you
20:22:00  <dihedral> i also have kill scripts in all the others ^^
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20:28:48  <dihedral> updated
20:28:56  <peter1138> downdated
20:30:26  <planetmaker> dihedral: better "App remains connected when starting a new or loading a saved game"
20:30:56  <Belugas> blinddated
20:31:23  <Belugas> yoursisteridated
20:31:31  <planetmaker> there's no weather in that documentation, I hope. Whether it might be a spelling mistake is left to the reader's judgement
20:32:13  <__ln__>  (sfw)
20:33:30  <planetmaker> Also provided is information on clients and companies (using "," instead of and looks wrong)
20:33:39  <Chris_Booth> evening all
20:33:46  <_Terkhen_> hi Chris_Booth
20:33:51  <planetmaker> shouldn't it also contain the packets in more detail, dihedral ?
20:33:57  <planetmaker> hi Chris_Booth
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20:34:38  <planetmaker> wow, that hurts, __ln__
20:34:43  <Chris_Booth> hi _Terkhen_  and planetmaker
20:35:13  <planetmaker> also, __ln__ you can always post patches (in reply to your question yesterday)
20:36:47  <planetmaker> I would probably look at a patch from that category
20:39:06  <__ln__> I'd like to switch the default mapping of Ctrl and Cmd.  So that Ctrl-click would do what it does in all other applications except OpenTTD.
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20:39:31  <dihedral> planetmaker, i deliberately did not include those details as i am afraid if tcp_admin.h got updated someone would fail to update the docs
20:39:43  <dihedral> and the inline documentation is very clear
20:40:07  <dihedral> if someone was going to write an app for that network, they very well should be able to read tcp_admin.h
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20:42:07  <__ln__> But I was unable to convince Bjarni about that because he had never used Ctrl-click because he has a two-button mouse and not a trackpad.
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20:52:03  <planetmaker> point taken, dihedral
20:53:27  <planetmaker> __ln__: Ctrl gives some kind of context menu
20:53:32  <planetmaker> at least here
20:54:44  <planetmaker> The problem I see with changing everything from ctrl -> cmd is that a) Tooltips will all be wrong and b) current users will complain
20:55:04  <planetmaker> the pro is that it's the usual behaviour which is expected
20:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the worst thing about that picture is that the phrase i learned as a child doesn't work anymore either...
20:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "Mein Vater ErklÀrt Mir Jeden Sonntag Unsere Neun Planeten"
20:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "Merkur Venus Erde Mars Jupiter Saturn Uranus Neptun Pluto"
20:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you know that chuck is evil?
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20:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> he made me listen to this stupid song "Dead Man's Party"
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21:02:01  <__ln__> planetmaker: Ctrl-click emulates clicking the right-mouse-button... except not in OTTD.  And yes, tooltips would be wrong, but Mac users are said to be smarter than average people. :)
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21:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubts about that :p
21:03:12  <__ln__> And Cmd is used for things similar to what Ctrl would do on a PC.
21:04:00  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and why don't you just change it for yourself, and leave it to everybody else to figure out how to switch if they are bothered?
21:05:23  <dihedral> but planetmaker is a mac
21:06:06  <planetmaker> I'm quite human actually
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21:06:53  <planetmaker> __ln__: what I _can_ imagine is to _also_ use cmd where currently only ctrl is used
21:07:07  <planetmaker> that'd be consistent but keep the tooltips right
21:07:16  <Rubidium> dihedral:
21:07:28  <planetmaker> thus cmd=ctrl with OpenTTD
21:07:30  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: well, my initial question yesterday was actually about: would by patch be accepted *because* Bjarni wouldn't accept it.  so don't expect 110% valid arguments. :)
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21:22:00  <planetmaker> __ln__: I will neither reject or accept anything because or not because of something. But only based on my own judgement whether it's improving things, matching the game and not hurting anything else therein
21:23:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you start to sound like a lawyer
21:23:39  <planetmaker> and testing some of the proposed OSX patches has made me indeed quite weary of possible implications
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21:24:16  <Eddi|zuHause> OSX is broken by design
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21:24:22  <planetmaker> fixing things here, but breaking it elsewhere.
21:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> neither windows nor linux need that much maintenance effort...
21:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* don't put the keyboard on the black-furry-thing-that-makes-miau-when-you-put-the-keyboard-on-it
21:26:40  <Keiya_> Eddi|zuHause, you're supposed to write programs for OS X /only/
21:26:46  <Keiya_> And only worry about the newest version of the OS
21:27:02  <Keiya_> You're not fitting in to Apple's Plan, and that's why you have problems
21:27:21  <Rubidium> given that the newest version of OS X is iOS4 or something
21:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Keiya_: you forgot "and rewrite the app every 2 years"
21:27:28  * planetmaker suddenly is imensly bored
21:27:32  <Rubidium> and Apple doesn't allow GPL applications on that OS, we don't have to care anymore
21:28:15  <Keiya_> I'm pretty sure they'll add an OS X app store within the next couple revisions
21:28:27  <Keiya_> And then disable non-app store apps a couple revisions after that
21:28:47  <Keyboard_Warrior> Keiya_, well obviously.
21:29:04  <Rubidium> I'm pretty sure App(le) stores aren't a thing we have to worry about
21:29:04  <Keyboard_Warrior> though, i wouldnt be suprised if microsoft tries to do that aswell
21:29:13  <dihedral> damn legalistic
21:29:29  <Keyboard_Warrior> users using shitty/broken/non updated apps = major headache on any os
21:29:59  <Keiya_> Every time MS has attempted that it's blown up in their faces...
21:30:06  <Keyboard_Warrior> sure.
21:30:10  <Keiya_> And even the 360 lets you run your own code on it.
21:30:18  <Keyboard_Warrior> but eventually they'll be a
21:30:21  <Keiya_> Whereas Apple's had nothing but success with taht model.
21:30:24  <Keyboard_Warrior> windows "it just works" edition
21:30:39  <Keyboard_Warrior> then, all the non tech people will start using that
21:31:00  <Keyboard_Warrior> with its app store and what not
21:31:45  <Keyboard_Warrior> Keiya_, and apple does get a bit of stick for being restrictive
21:31:51  <Keyboard_Warrior> see all the people jailbreaking their iphones
21:32:19  <Rubidium> just look at all people "jailbreaking" OpenTTD, i.e. patching it
21:32:24  <dihedral> Rubidium, the server can send various packets after the welcome packet
21:32:45  <dihedral> e.g. ERROR, NEWGAME, SHUTDOWN
21:32:54  <Rubidium> it's a perfect way to get rid of the support you have to legally give
21:33:51  <planetmaker> we have to legally give support beyond "here's the source"?
21:34:26  <Rubidium> true, for us it's not really legally but more ethically
21:34:27  <planetmaker> (didn't I read the fine print? ;-) )
21:34:38  <planetmaker> :-)
21:34:46  <Rubidium> but then legal and ethical should be somewhat close to eachother
21:34:57  <planetmaker> emphasis on *should*
21:35:03  <dihedral> hehe
21:35:43  <Rubidium> dihedral: you're telling me you didn't add some stuff to the document? I've just given you a load of (possible) improvements. You can still add your own improvements as well :)
21:36:00  <dihedral> i am :-)
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21:36:19  <dihedral> did not mean to sound ungreatful :-) i love feedback and help :-)
21:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in the EU you have to give 2 years warranty for everything commercial, including software
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21:43:42  <planetmaker> no
21:43:55  <dihedral> hihi - shame, i did like "*** glx has joined the game"
21:44:00  <dihedral> hihi
21:44:27  <planetmaker> you have to make sure that things work for that time
21:44:52  <planetmaker> But I'm not sure it applies to software. As you don't (physically) sell it
21:45:02  <planetmaker> After all you only get a license
21:45:10  <planetmaker> that is the right to use it
21:47:08  <planetmaker> and besides OpenTTD isn't distributed (by us) commercially
21:49:02  <dihedral> (updated)
21:50:59  <enr1x> hi guys
21:51:31  <enr1x> i have a question: there's a lorry station which accepts goods, but when I unload, the goods stay there; the station won't pay me. what could be wrong?
21:51:53  <enr1x> there are now over 700 units of goods unloaded there...
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21:52:35  <planetmaker> try not to use explicit unload orders
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21:52:47  <SmatZ> enr1x: don't use transfer orders ; does the station REALLY accept goods?
21:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> enr1x: you use "transfer" when you shouldn't?
21:53:53  <enr1x>
21:54:10  <enr1x> there's a unload and leave empty order...
21:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause> my internet is too slow for this picture...
21:56:17  <Rubidium> image fails, but... goods originally came from that station?
21:57:13  <planetmaker> broken image for me
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21:58:59  <enr1x> yeah, i saw the problem, there was an intermediate station which fell on the coverage of the factory
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21:59:21  <enr1x> so the goods would be actually unloaded on the coverage of the factory
21:59:29  <enr1x> thanks for the help guys
21:59:47  <SmatZ> "coverage of a factory" in an unknown term for me
21:59:54  <SmatZ> but fine it helped :)
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22:05:08  * dihedral is off to bed :-)
22:05:11  <dihedral> good night
22:05:31  <SmatZ> good night, dihedral
22:05:52  <planetmaker> good night dihedral
22:05:59  <planetmaker> and good night all others, too
22:06:05  <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker :)
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22:06:45  <_Terkhen_> good night
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23:37:18  <Wolf01> 'nighty night
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