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Log for #openttd on 29th October 2010:
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00:25:02  <enr1x> hi guys!
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00:25:58  <enr1x> i have a quick question: why an industry would say "65% transported) even though there would be a vehicle ready for pickup?
00:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it depends on the average station rating
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00:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause> see the wiki for details
00:28:27  <enr1x> yeah, i was looking at the wiki actually
00:29:30  <enr1x> what part exactly, Eddi? i might have overlooked something
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00:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating
00:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry will take the average of this value over some time (like a month or so) and base its production level on it
00:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's lower than 33%, industry may have increased chance of closing, higher than 66% has an increased chance of growing
00:41:46  <enr1x> ok, thanks a lot for this acclaration, Eddi|zuHause
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01:00:46  <lugo> for this what?
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01:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> acceleration... how bad is your error compensation?!
01:20:55  <lugo> well it's more sceptical than yours i guess
01:21:14  <lugo> he could have also gotten declaration very wrong ;(
01:21:15  <lugo> ;)
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04:13:38  <Chrill> ohai, GoneWacko
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05:41:13  <_Terkhen_> good morning
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07:14:58  <mattfury> hello
07:15:15  <mattfury> theres a new maglev concept not in openttd...
07:16:12  <Noldo> why aren't you coding it?
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07:17:07  <mattfury> i heard china was considering evacuated train tunnels so they can acheive even higher speeds
07:17:26  <mattfury> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit
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07:18:03  <mattfury> Noldo, also i know nothing about development :/
07:18:22  <mattfury> i can program in VB, HTML, CSS but not C++/perl
07:18:51  <norbert79> mattfury: There are lot of things not available in OpenTTD, but unless you start creating it, you won't get it beloved nor any support for the coding part
07:19:10  <norbert79> mattfury: I have just started to create a hungarian building set, but it will take a while :)
07:19:47  <mattfury> oh really that sounds cool...
07:20:42  <norbert79> mattfury: Way off from finishing, just started it... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=903392#p903392
07:21:06  <norbert79> the lowest picture is the first test-sprite based on the OpenTTD Palette
07:21:38  <Rubidium> mattfury: if "evacuated train tunnels" mean "near-vacuum tunnels", then it has been proposed in the 1960s already
07:22:26  <norbert79> Rubidium: Whats the difference between these "evacuated train tunnels" and those Underground/Metro like tunnel concepts?
07:22:42  <Noldo> price
07:22:48  <Rubidium> air drag
07:22:53  <norbert79> Ahha
07:23:08  <norbert79> so basically just higher speeds
07:23:38  <mattfury> http://inhabitat.com/2010/08/05/china-developing-a-train-that-can-go-620-miles-per-hour/
07:24:17  <Rubidium> 620 is peanuts. The 1960s idea is about 5000 miles per hour between Europe and the US
07:24:20  <norbert79> that would make a sound when derailed ;-)
07:24:24  <norbert79> lol
07:24:29  <norbert79> 5000 miles / hour...
07:24:44  <norbert79> Not possible
07:25:07  <mattfury> it'd have to be shaped like the latest jets :|
07:25:12  <Rubidium> norbert79: why not? Vacuum
07:25:18  <Rubidium> that helps a lot
07:25:31  <norbert79> Rubidium: it might be possible but would have fatal effects on the passengers
07:25:47  <Noldo> how?
07:25:48  <mattfury> Rubidium, do you haz sauce on this 5000/mile idea?
07:25:48  <norbert79> it's the human side, where it makes impossible
07:26:00  <Rubidium> norbert79: why is it fatal for passengers?
07:26:15  <Noldo> you just have to not accelerate and deaccelerate too fast
07:26:26  <norbert79> Rubidium: Do you know how big the turns have to be at such speeds?
07:26:54  <norbert79> Rubidium: Just think on a generic airline jet, or a fighter
07:26:54  <Rubidium> norbert79: straight lines don't have turns
07:27:05  <norbert79> Rubidium: Good luck building it through a straight line
07:27:23  <Noldo> I wonder would it be curved along the surface of the earth
07:27:25  <norbert79> even under the ocean you will not be able to build it in a straight line
07:27:30  <ccfreak2k> Noldo, probably.
07:27:32  <norbert79> It has to be
07:27:41  <ccfreak2k> It would also cross tectonic boundaries.
07:27:54  <ccfreak2k> Plates shift, tunnel misaligns...game over.
07:27:54  <norbert79> Which is also a big issue
07:27:58  <norbert79> indeed
07:29:21  <mattfury> i always hated the earthquakes in simcity because they destroy everything! :D
07:29:37  <norbert79> and if you want to go even deeper, closer to the core of earth, then you have to face with the issue of the floating elements, and the heat
07:29:52  <norbert79> mattfury: Thats what earthquakes do normally you see :D
07:30:45  <mattfury> any reason it hasnt been added to openttd??
07:30:58  <norbert79> mattfury: Noone was interested in doing it
07:31:14  <norbert79> mattfury: Second issue, that you are not able to build undergrounds/metros
07:31:18  <norbert79> yet
07:31:29  <norbert79> so there are several issues to be solved before you can implement
07:31:59  <norbert79> so if you want to do it, you have to start analyzing at least GRF-s
07:32:08  <norbert79> which I am also doing :)
07:34:27  <norbert79> mattfury: As a start look for the development pages for GRFs, check out the Wiki, and analyze the OpenGFX package's source file
07:34:39  <norbert79> so you can understand the concept how GRF-s work
07:36:57  <ccfreak2k> Perhaps supersonic passenger jets can be re-examined.
07:37:45  <norbert79> Creating a flying, supersonic train o_O?
07:39:15  <ccfreak2k> Yeah, except there's only one car.
07:39:22  <ccfreak2k> And they're kind of bolted together.
07:39:34  <norbert79> that would remark me on Star Treks shuttles
07:39:40  <ccfreak2k> There are even small trains that drive on road surfaces!
07:40:03  <norbert79> You know what would be nice?
07:40:15  <norbert79> Those boat-buses, what you can see in Venice
07:40:20  <norbert79> that would make sense
07:40:41  <mattfury> boats = so outdated technology...
07:40:43  <mattfury> too slow
07:40:55  <norbert79> mattfury: Tell the Venicers :D
07:41:19  <norbert79> "Sorry dudes, that you have all these channels and rivers and stuff, but boats are soo outdated..."
07:41:26  <norbert79> :D
07:41:46  <ccfreak2k> You know, if they got rid of the water they wouldn't have to use boats.
07:42:04  <norbert79> ccfreak2k: Pity, that their whole city is a big floating isle
07:42:19  <ccfreak2k> It's a bit charitable to call it floating.
07:42:51  <mattfury> i can see trains running across the ocean on locked buoys...
07:43:07  <norbert79> till the first storm comes by
07:43:31  <norbert79> boats will never be outdated
07:43:35  <norbert79> I mean ships
07:44:19  <mattfury> ok you can take the jet-ship; ill take the jet ;)
07:44:49  <mattfury> see who gets around the world first :D
07:45:16  <norbert79> mattfury: It's not about being first, that was outdated in 1912, when Titanic sunk :)
07:45:42  <norbert79> Besides, deliver several tousand of goods with a jet
07:45:46  <norbert79> good luck :)
07:45:53  <norbert79> tousand tons
07:46:10  <mattfury> ok so ill make billions... you make millions not *that* much of a difference :P
07:46:44  <norbert79> mattfury: The problem is, that you think in small, but I don't care. :)
07:47:47  <mattfury> You've never seen the simpsons episode where Mr Burns loses a couple of billion dollars and gets sent to the millionaires club and then mocked have you? ^^
07:48:24  <norbert79> mattfury: I did, but I don't see the point in this whole discussion. Simpsons is Simpsons, reality is reality :)
07:48:41  <mattfury> its good satire =D
07:48:51  <norbert79> if it would be otherwise, I would be an Einstein in a body of superman with capabilities of all heroes and having all the best girls
07:49:37  <mattfury> Einstein *is* stupid.
07:50:08  <norbert79> mattfury: May I ask for your age, if you don't mind? :)
07:50:41  <mattfury> 21...
07:51:03  <norbert79> Blackjack! :D
07:51:03  <mattfury> look up Schrodinger's cat theory :)
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07:51:45  <norbert79> mattfury: I know Schrödinger's theory, but it was just a simple explanation of a problem of a still expanding topic...
07:52:18  <norbert79> mattfury: Where Einstein made analysis on rules, which hasn1t been overruled yet... But for Christ Sake, it's OpenTTD, not #math
07:52:55  <mattfury> So still would you be Einstein or Schrodinger?
07:53:22  <norbert79> I wiil be the one, who will stop this conversation :)
07:55:17  <mattfury> sure it's a little off-topic, but if Schrodinger & Einstein decided to invent a ship/jet/train who's do you think would be better? :)
07:55:36  * norbert79 facepalms...
07:56:20  <mattfury> lol
07:57:26  <mattfury> bash.org anyone? :D
07:58:20  <norbert79> Ok, off to something
07:58:23  <norbert79> brbsoon
07:58:31  <_Terkhen_> I can't decide between a train with a relativistic point of view different to everyone's else or a train that might exist or not
07:58:40  <_Terkhen_> both sound kind of useless
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08:09:06  <andythenorth> could we extend action 14 with some more properties similar to description?
08:09:19  <andythenorth> a 'long description' property
08:09:29  <andythenorth> and a 'compatibility' property
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08:47:38  <planetmaker> good morning
08:48:14  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker
08:49:03  <planetmaker> moin SmatZ :-)
08:50:54  <andythenorth> morning
08:51:28  <_Terkhen_> hello everybody
08:51:37  <SmatZ> hello :)
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08:54:06  <andythenorth> no devzone?
08:54:30  <planetmaker> hell andythenorth _Terkhen_
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08:54:41  <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, the data centre seems to have trouble
08:54:47  <norbert79> back...
08:54:52  <planetmaker> our host server of the vserver is down
08:55:16  <dihedral> \o/
08:55:28  <norbert79> Hooray for virtualization :D
08:55:32  <norbert79> guess no backup server
08:55:37  <dihedral> ...
08:55:45  <planetmaker> the backup server is said to be running. But ...
08:55:54  <norbert79> :))
08:57:12  * andythenorth looks for something to do
08:57:20  <andythenorth> it has to be instantly interruptable by babies
08:57:51  <planetmaker> drawing? ;-)
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08:59:51  <dihedral> andythenorth, know anything about java?
09:01:27  <planetmaker> in any case, I can't do more right now that telling them "fix it fast" - which I already did
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09:02:36  <andythenorth> dihedral: nothing
09:03:16  * andythenorth wonders what to set for values of TE etc for a vehicle that has both road and rail versions
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09:05:05  <andythenorth> the rail version carries an extra few tonnes of weight for adhesion
09:05:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth, depending on traction type, I'd say :-)
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09:06:53  <andythenorth> rubber tyres
09:07:03  <andythenorth> co-efficient of friction is 0.94
09:07:06  <andythenorth> apparently
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09:15:42  <norbert79> Damn fire-alarm-tests...
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09:20:01  <GIORDANO> Anyone know the settings to remove the trees in the landscape ?. Since it is very disturbing vision ..
09:20:41  <GIORDANO> in transport tycoon deluxe can remove it with savegame configurator.
09:20:47  <GIORDANO> how about in openttd
09:21:11  <GIORDANO> anyone know how to remove it the tree ?
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09:22:15  <GIORDANO> ?????
09:22:29  <norbert79> Why don't you just use the transparent option for trees?
09:22:34  <Mortomes|TGIF> GIORDANO: How about we cut a deal
09:22:46  <Mortomes|TGIF> GIORDANO: You use the option to remove caps, and we'll tell you all about the option to remove trees.
09:23:23  * planetmaker hugs Mortomes|TGIF
09:23:42  <norbert79> Hey, look up in the sky... is it a bird?... :)
09:25:04  <GIORDANO> ow
09:26:01  <norbert79> use /nick Giordano
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09:26:57  <planetmaker> pew
09:26:57  <norbert79> Andyyyy.....
09:27:01  <Giordano> ...
09:27:24  <norbert79> Andy, it's not funny...
09:27:25  * ANDYTHENORTH wonders what effect hi-rail trucks will have on gameplay
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09:27:47  <norbert79> Better
09:27:47  * AnDyThEnOrTh how leet
09:27:55  <planetmaker> :-P
09:27:56  <AnDyThEnOrTh> like a perverted camel case
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09:28:01  <norbert79> Too bad the capsed vocals do not make sense
09:28:06  <planetmaker> ask your son about that, Andythenorth ;-)
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09:28:08  <Yexo> Giordano: advanced settings->construction->"in game placement of trees", set to "none'
09:28:28  <Yexo> or press "ctrl+X" and click the trees button and the button under it to make them invisible
09:28:45  <norbert79> Giordano: Other option, if you want to still use trees but it blocks your view: use the transparency settings in "Settings"
09:28:46  <planetmaker> ^
09:28:50  <Yexo> you can also set "Tree algorithm" to "none" in the world generation window to start a game without any trees
09:28:52  <norbert79> or that
09:29:26  <norbert79> No more MrCapsLock phrases for me :(
09:29:29  <Giordano> oh...
09:29:45  <Giordano> ok :)
09:29:49  <Giordano> thank you :)
09:30:21  <norbert79> yet I love trees, especially the "Stolen Trees"
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09:34:11  <Mortomes|TGIF> Wow, did I actually accomplish the destruction of the CAPSMONSTER?
09:34:25  * andythenorth enters fun world of cb36
09:34:28  <norbert79> Don't mention the name of the monster
09:34:40  <norbert79> it destroys the world
09:35:00  <andythenorth> _Terkhen_: wiki implies RVs don't support cb36 for hp, TE etc
09:35:09  <_Terkhen_> they don't
09:35:11  <andythenorth> iirc, you got stuck on cb36 support?
09:35:13  <norbert79> whats cb36?
09:35:19  <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Change_vehicle_properties_36_
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09:35:25  <_Terkhen_> the patch is coded, but never tested
09:35:37  <andythenorth> I am about to write some code that would test it ;)
09:35:46  <andythenorth> assuming that's not a pointless activity
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09:36:12  <_Terkhen_> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/patches/150-callback_36_support.diff <--- it's probably very outdated by now, but it should not be very complicated to update
09:36:51  <_Terkhen_> in theory it supports power, weight and tractive effort, a GRF to test all three would be very appreciated :)
09:37:13  <andythenorth> I have a valid case for power and weight
09:37:24  <andythenorth> TE not so much, but am happy to make a test
09:37:38  <andythenorth> I'll do it today, subject to baby interruptions
09:38:07  <_Terkhen_> take your time... I won't be able to code anything today
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09:41:00  <andythenorth> cpp can't do maths can it?
09:42:24  <planetmaker> it can't really
09:42:32  <andythenorth> bah
09:42:52  <andythenorth> that means I can't use defines for hp, speed, etc to share across road/rail vehicles
09:43:19  <planetmaker> how so?
09:43:36  <Yexo> andythenorth: start using nml :p
09:44:10  <planetmaker> :-D
09:44:21  <planetmaker> I had to stop myself writing that exact sentence ;-)
09:44:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: RVs use hp/1; trains use hp/10
09:44:37  <planetmaker> ah, yes
09:44:49  <Yexo> or you can try another preprocessor, like m4
09:45:37  <andythenorth> probably best to just hard code it and leave comments behind
09:46:13  <planetmaker> given the current state of HEQS: yes
09:47:02  <andythenorth> could I specify some vehicles with nml, have that compiled to nfo by make, then pass the resulting compiled nfo to grfcodec?
09:47:13  <andythenorth> hmm
09:47:18  <planetmaker> yes
09:47:27  <andythenorth> is there an nml-nfo output
09:47:38  <andythenorth> or compile nml, decompile with grfcodec
09:47:50  <andythenorth> probably tmwftlb
09:48:01  <planetmaker> the nml NFO output is nicer than grfcodecs as you keep the comments
09:48:15  <planetmaker> s/cs/c's/
09:48:33  <planetmaker> doing that probably would not be much work
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09:50:09  <Yexo> only you can't give varaction2's an id
09:50:14  <Yexo> those ids are autogenerated
09:51:01  <Yexo> for action0 that is no problem
09:53:44  <dihedral> arg - vpn down :-S
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10:17:02  <Giordano> hard to find a plane that can be downloaded :(
10:17:27  <Giordano> I like weird aircraft. :)
10:17:57  <Giordano> like av8 aviator aircraft or yate :)
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10:33:04  <andythenorth> so NARS 2 has vehicles which use same ID, but change HP over time
10:33:10  <andythenorth> good or annoying?
10:33:19  <andythenorth> I like it, except when trying to upgrade same model of vehicle
10:34:20  <planetmaker> doesn't hurt, does it?
10:34:41  <andythenorth> saves cluttering the buy menu
10:34:59  <planetmaker> it does indeed
10:35:17  <planetmaker> It's basically like any car company giving a model a face lift
10:35:23  <Hirundo> It makes upgrading vehicles a bit cumbersome, sometimes (esp. the generational caboose)
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10:35:40  <planetmaker> they still call it e.g. VW Golf. But now it's meanwhile version 6 which looks quite different from version 1
10:36:33  <andythenorth> exactly
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10:38:34  <andythenorth> same effect could be achieved by using different IDs
10:38:41  <andythenorth> but then renew would break
10:38:59  <andythenorth> so in one route, renew breaks, in the other, auto-replace breaks
10:39:43  <Giordano> http://au.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=guppy+airplane
10:39:51  <Giordano> beautiful airplane :)
10:41:02  <planetmaker> there's always some quirks. But... how does either or break?
10:41:42  <andythenorth> if different IDs (and vehicle not available), renew will fail
10:41:54  <andythenorth> if same IDs, can't auto-replace to the more powerful model
10:42:20  <andythenorth> i.e. version 1 is ID A1, 1957-1970
10:42:31  <andythenorth> version 2 is ID A2, 1970-1984
10:42:41  <andythenorth> renew will fail
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11:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i just had a crazy 2007 flashback...
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11:37:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth, thanks. makes sense... seems like... it is a place which could need some care
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12:06:04  <XeryusTC> Hello bitches!
12:06:31  <XeryusTC> Irc from the train :D
12:06:35  <SmatZ> :P
12:06:51  <__ln__> that's so 2008's
12:07:02  <XeryusTC> Also, wrong channel
12:07:18  <__ln__> is it even a fast train?
12:07:22  <SmatZ> I don't want to know what is the correct channel :p
12:08:15  <planetmaker> o_o
12:08:48  * SmatZ had a "nice" morning
12:08:57  <SmatZ> the 160-litre water boiler broke
12:09:00  <SmatZ> literally
12:09:10  <SmatZ> so water started spraying everywhere
12:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds... "fun"...
12:09:27  <SmatZ> luckily I heard that and it woke me up :)
12:09:49  <SmatZ> I wonder, if I was away, and came back home
12:09:57  <SmatZ> with 20cm water in the room :p
12:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not pretty...
12:10:46  <SmatZ> at least I don't have to wash myself until Monday ;)
12:10:48  <SmatZ> :p
12:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> we once had a heating inspector over. and apparently he didn't close a valve properly, and the next day, there were 5cm water on the floor...
12:11:06  <SmatZ> oh :x
12:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it was "only" in the cellar, luckily...
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12:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so nothing important there on the floor
12:11:58  <SmatZ> my room is in the basement, so the situation would be different :)
12:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, also luckily, we have a door in the basement, so water could flow out...
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12:28:55  <Belugas> hello ttders
12:30:15  <fjb> Moin Belugas
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14:04:36  <norbert79> Todays funny: http://www.threadless.com/submission/305462/Final_Boss
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14:47:37  * Mortomes|TGIF declares weekend!
14:47:56  *** Yexo [~Yexo@153-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Quit: bye]
14:48:06  * norbert79 accepts Mortomes|TGIF offer...
14:51:20  * Belugas has to wait a bit more
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14:57:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21055 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Codechange [FS#4190]: Code style fix (chillcore)
15:01:04  <norbert79> For you all: http://wimp.com/miniaturewonderland/
15:01:23  <norbert79> Guess our German friends know this already :)
15:04:39  <norbert79> A living OpenTTD :)
15:12:57  <Belugas> the camera work is incredible!
15:13:33  <norbert79> Belugas: Full 3D, no patches required! :D
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15:23:13  <norbert79> laterz!
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15:46:06  <andythenorth_> what's the velocity of a long train on a horseshoe curve?
15:50:49  <andythenorth_> (relative to the earth)
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16:01:56  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth_: African or European long train?
16:02:07  <andythenorth_> lego
16:02:24  <andythenorth_> about 50 miles north of you by my guess
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17:17:46  <Belugas> burp
17:17:55  <Belugas> pizza time, on the boss
17:18:00  <Belugas> too bad, no beer :S
17:18:11  <Belugas> like... that's indecent!
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17:24:45  <dnicholls> hello hello
17:25:18  <Alberth> hello
17:31:14  <dnicholls> how are we all on this gloriously dark evening?
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17:33:17  <SpComb> inside with bright lighting
17:33:44  <Alberth> this channel is all the light I need :p
17:35:44  <dnicholls> nice :)
17:42:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21056 /trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt:
17:42:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:42:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: turkish - 7 changes by niw3
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18:25:35  <enr1x> hi guys!
18:25:39  <enr1x> what is monorail good for?
18:25:56  <enr1x> that is, why should I use it instead of trains for an intracity network?
18:26:35  <enr1x> in the wiki it doesn't tell the advantages or cons...
18:26:42  *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@82.100.0.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:27:03  <avdg> monorail is faster then normal rails, but mostly it has a limited trainset
18:27:25  <avdg> if thats an advantage, is your opinion
18:28:05  <enr1x> a monorail would be better than buses in a busy network, for that matter right?
18:28:16  <avdg> depends
18:28:24  <avdg> you need to experiment with it
18:28:54  <Alberth> oh noes, I must play more OpenTTD :p
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18:31:14  <enr1x> ok, i'll try, thanks avdg!
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18:51:28  <Terkhen> good night
18:51:35  <avdg> gn
18:51:46  <Alberth> good night
19:04:32  <planetmaker> [20:28]	<enr1x>	what is monorail good for? <-- it really heavily depends upon the add-ons (newgrfs) which you use.
19:04:43  <planetmaker> As money is no issue: use what you think looks best.
19:04:53  <planetmaker> which is a very individual judgement
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19:33:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21057 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4182] (r20922): network client "fast forward" incrementing counter multiple times in same "GUI" tick causing an invalid state
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20:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=910673#p910673 <-- i'd like to reply "congrats for successfully not answering the question at all."
20:02:13  <andythenorth_> railtypes or RailTypes?
20:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i presume original question wants the former, and both replies the latter.
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20:17:04  <Alberth> andythenorth_: do vehicle sets have meaning? (ie if a vehicle becomes member of a set, can something special happen (getting a livery/consist/order/whatever)?)
20:17:25  <andythenorth_> *no* :D
20:17:36  <andythenorth_> I think it's really important to avoid that kind of magic
20:18:06  <andythenorth_> the only way they can be changed is if the user explicitly performs an action on the vehicle set
20:18:22  <andythenorth_> I could be wrong about this though :)
20:18:29  <Alberth> so no way to keep sets consistent w.r.t. some property
20:19:21  <Alberth> making a set becomes a one-time thing then; make a set, do some action, that's it
20:19:22  <andythenorth_> so all vehicles in set try and maintain a value n for property x
20:19:23  <andythenorth_> ?
20:19:38  <andythenorth_> I think the contents of the vehicle set could be dynamic
20:19:42  <andythenorth_> based on filters
20:19:49  <andythenorth_> but that's an enhancement
20:20:16  <andythenorth_> i.e. filters like reliability, profit
20:20:31  <andythenorth_> but no other changes
20:21:06  <Alberth> if I throw an extra vehicle in some set, you are not going to find it again, I think
20:21:39  <andythenorth_> possibly
20:21:47  <Alberth> nor what you want to have changed on that vehicle, perhaps
20:22:17  <andythenorth_> so imagine I have a set called 'red vehicles' (for whatever strange reason)
20:22:32  <andythenorth_> the set doesn't keep them red
20:22:39  * Alberth nods
20:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> having all vehicles added to a "set" change their schedule/consist/company colour/etc. could be a user setting in a second step
20:22:48  <andythenorth_> I have to go to some 'action' menu (like existing groups) and choose 'set colour'
20:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> like autoseparation/autoreplace/autowhatever
20:23:29  <andythenorth_> this way it doesn't matter if a vehicle is in multiple sets - there are no rule conflicts to deal with
20:23:48  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I know that can be done, but I like it if we don't need that, tbh
20:24:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it would be nice to have, but not a requirement
20:24:17  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: why?
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20:24:26  <Alberth> (would it be nice)
20:25:27  <Alberth> andythenorth_: please continue
20:26:23  <andythenorth_> I'm not sure what else to say about vehicle lists, they seem quite clear to me :o
20:26:31  <andythenorth_> what actions could be performed?
20:26:54  <andythenorth_> set orders / set consist / stop / start / goto depot / send for servicing
20:27:03  <andythenorth_> set colour (in future - doesn't exist yet)
20:27:29  * andythenorth_ wonders if livery should be a vehicle property, not a crazy hack on refits
20:27:34  <andythenorth_> but that's a sidetrack
20:27:40  <Alberth> I understand them, but I find it a bit worrying that I can see already now that no way you are going to manage anything with them, as vehicles just get lost in the sets
20:28:03  <andythenorth_> I have some worries about this whole conceptual system of mine
20:28:07  <andythenorth_> I think it might be too complicated
20:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: assume i have two tram lines defined by shared orders. if i now move a tram from the first line to the second line, i might want it so it automatically takes on the new shared orders
20:28:14  <andythenorth_> but players seem to desire the control
20:28:37  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: that would be order sets
20:28:46  <andythenorth_> ?
20:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: possibly. but i'd like to have that option from the generic "macromanagement" gui
20:29:44  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that would be useful. What worries me is that you don't want to do vehicle membership of a set by hand, do you?
20:29:55  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause but then you need a precedence rules gui as well
20:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> like an "enforce shared orders" button that can be activated for each group, or not.
20:30:21  <andythenorth_> you'll end up micro-managing cascading precedence rules instead of vehicles
20:30:49  <andythenorth_> ;)
20:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: that could be solved by only enforcing on actual adding to the group, not permanent checks
20:30:52  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: automatic actions open a flood-way of problems, imagine two livery groups, a yellow->green and a green->yellow
20:31:17  <andythenorth_> I think I see what Eddi|zuHause means
20:31:24  <andythenorth_> he's just shortcutting user intention
20:31:41  <andythenorth_> adding to group means 'match to the properties the group is using'
20:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't work with consists/autoreplace, though.
20:32:25  <andythenorth_> we haven't talked much about consists
20:32:28  <andythenorth_> we should :)
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20:33:51  <Alberth> are they so difficult?  just a set of mappings of consists X to consists Y, where wagons of Y can come from X or be 'new'
20:34:13  <Alberth> with some cycle protection :)
20:34:48  * Alberth ponders refits
20:35:07  <andythenorth_> how do I make a new consist?
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20:35:20  <andythenorth_> (I know they can be arranged using same method as depot)
20:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> rearranging virtual or real vehicles in a depot-like gui
20:35:39  <andythenorth_> but where do I manage all consists, and choose 'new consist'
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20:35:56  <Alberth> probably Y becomes entirely 'new' ?
20:36:19  <andythenorth_> does adding vehicles to a consist cost money (minor question)
20:36:20  <Rubidium> how do you store consists outside of a savegame? Because people with definitely ask for them to be loaded in another savegame
20:36:34  <andythenorth_> does autoreplace still exist?
20:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: similar to newgrf-presets?
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20:37:25  <andythenorth_> if I have 20 consists all using 8x passenger carriage 'gumdrop', and I want to use new carriage 'applejack', autoreplace might still be valid
20:37:39  <Alberth> andythenorth_: mappings from X to Y is 'virtual', it defines just how to compose a new consist, as such it should not cost money imho
20:37:46  <andythenorth_> yup
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20:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: you change the consist in the "list all consists"-depot-gui, and vehicles using this consist will automatically replace on next depot visit
20:38:45  <andythenorth_> which is fine
20:38:46  <Alberth> besides the mappings, you also need to enable the X -> Y transition (with options like 'now' 'when old')
20:38:55  <andythenorth_> but what about the consists themselves?
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20:39:18  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: so I have 200 trains, using 20 consists...
20:39:33  <andythenorth_> and I want to change a vehicle in all 20 consists...
20:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: you have some helper functions to affect all consists
20:39:44  <andythenorth_> yes
20:39:46  <Rubidium> sub-consists! :)
20:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> or all consists matching certain criteria
20:39:54  <andythenorth_> autoreplace!
20:40:02  <andythenorth_> bring back autoreplace, all is forgiven!
20:40:05  <andythenorth_> with groups!
20:40:10  <Alberth> meta-consist replacements :)
20:40:13  <andythenorth_> can I group my consists?
20:40:14  <andythenorth_> :P
20:40:29  <Alberth> that would be simplest perhaps
20:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say "yes", but it might get difficult
20:41:52  <Alberth> autoreplace is just generation of  X->Y mappings where the engine gets changed
20:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> useful options could be "when old", "when servicing", "immediately", "only when replacement vehicle in depot"
20:47:25  <andythenorth_> nice idea
20:47:45  <andythenorth_> I'm not sure how we keep some form of autoreplace though, without also demanding groups of some kind
20:47:54  <andythenorth_> we just make the problem worse not better
20:53:38  <Alberth> given that engine replacement happens most often, we could have 'copy-wagons' buttons to copy them from X to Y as a starting point for the user.
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20:57:05  <andythenorth_> Alberth: does that work on individual consists, or all consists?
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20:57:42  <Alberth> I'd say individual ones
20:58:19  <andythenorth_> me too
20:58:55  <andythenorth_> but it leaves me missing current style of auto-replace
21:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> should probably make a way for both...
21:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly a "copy existing consist, and change engine" and "replace vehicle in all existing consists" are common use cases
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21:07:09  <azaghal> How about allowing to create groups based on stations, names, type of wagon etc?
21:07:23  <azaghal> (filter for multiple categories)
21:09:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's probably one of the primary features.
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21:44:44  <andythenorth_> omg
21:44:49  <andythenorth_> not realistc
21:44:53  <andythenorth_> not at all
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21:57:28  <lugo> yaay, good work with the biorefinery andythenorth_ :D
21:58:29  <andythenorth_> thanks :)
22:00:05  <dihedral> the nice thing about java: at least i know where all my memory is being consumed!
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22:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> is that like "the nice thing about investing in lehman brothers: you know where all your money is being consumed"?
22:27:38  <dihedral> yes!
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22:40:15  <nicfer> helllooo
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