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timeout: 480 seconds] 02:28:03 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:28:10 *** Giordano [724f377e@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 02:28:32 *** Netsplit over, joins: xiong 02:29:18 <xiong> I bought a road vehicle yesterday. 02:33:33 <Giordano> ?? 02:33:49 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: .] 02:35:06 <Giordano> openttd is very amazing game i have played :) 02:35:10 <Giordano> i love it 02:37:51 *** Netsplit over, joins: Born_Acorn, @orudge, ar3k, Spoons, @Rubidium, G 02:37:53 <Giordano> i played transport tycoon deluxe since in 199x dos version until now openttd 02:38:31 <Giordano> the creator who make this game is very genius i think :) 02:41:20 *** Netsplit over, joins: PeterT, russell_h, ntx, joern, jpx_, CIA-1, ecke 02:41:20 *** Andel [~andel@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 02:41:20 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.48.99] has joined #openttd 02:41:20 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.238] has joined #openttd 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has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:10:08 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 04:11:20 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:22:32 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-3.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:26:22 *** planetmaker [~chatzilla@dslb-092-076-123-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 04:26:54 *** planetmaker is now known as Guest1220 04:32:03 *** Guest1218 [~chatzilla@dslb-088-070-036-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:49:35 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFE9BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:45 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:53:20 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73C66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:37 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:57:55 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-3.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 05:07:01 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 05:45:41 *** rohan [~chatzilla@CTPP-p-144-134-157-33.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:45:48 *** rohan is now known as noom 05:46:10 <noom> 'ello everyone 05:46:29 <noom> started playing oTTD a few days ago and had a few general questions if anyones about 05:50:47 <LaSeandre> err, ok? 05:50:48 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:51:08 <noom> lols, i like to wait to see if anyones actually here before asking :p 05:51:20 <LaSeandre> whats the question? 05:51:46 <noom> well, i was happily shifting oil to a refinery today and *pop* oil well disapeared 05:51:53 <noom> then there was no oil on the map o.O 05:51:57 <noom> whats the go there? 05:52:17 <LaSeandre> hmm... 05:52:26 <LaSeandre> robotboy? 05:52:41 <noom> seems i lose resources left right and center 05:52:46 <noom> most of them are gone before the 70's 05:52:52 <noom> could it be because i have no AI ? 05:53:19 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-3.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:53:31 <LaSeandre> well, no, that shouldn't really affect it. 05:53:56 <noom> i thought maybe AI filled a gap i couldnt alone 05:54:14 <noom> like maybe they're closing because i wasnt servicing them? i dont really know the mechanics at that depth 05:54:26 <LaSeandre> well, it shouldn't affect services you have running. 05:54:40 <noom> yeah this is what made me decide to ask 05:54:44 <robotboy> hello 05:54:48 <noom> just disapeared with two trains using it 05:55:13 <LaSeandre> robotboy, lil help. 05:55:29 <noom> i'm pretty slow at expanding, so i thought maybe it was just me, but my maps end up really desolate very early on 05:55:47 <noom> and i cant figure out how to find new resources either ... otherwise it owuldnt worry me 05:56:07 <LaSeandre> tbh, im not really the best person to ask, but it does seem strange 05:56:22 <noom> this last game i just gave up on i was down to 3 resource points and it was all coal... 05:56:27 <noom> boring stuff lol 05:56:31 *** Guest1220 is now known as planetmaker 05:56:55 <noom> ah well, maybe someone will scroll up :p 05:58:01 <LaSeandre> hehe 05:58:24 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:58:56 <robotboy> my understanding for oil is that oil wells close automatically even if they are serviced 05:59:26 <noom> hmm 05:59:27 <robotboy> ie there will be none by the end of the game but oil rigs should replace them 05:59:35 <noom> ok well, maybe you can help me with this prospecting ? 05:59:41 <noom> ooooh 05:59:41 <noom> when do rigs pop up ? 05:59:47 <noom> i keep giving up heh 05:59:52 <robotboy> but the other industry types should hang around if you service them properly 06:00:16 <noom> i struggle to get things built fast enough at this stage, i obviously still have a lot to learn 06:00:17 <robotboy> rigs popup in the 90's I think, look at the wiki 06:00:31 <noom> ooh cool, thanks man 06:00:36 <noom> i've not gone beyond the 80's yet haha 06:02:43 <noom> do you know how to get prospecting "turned on" ? 06:02:47 <noom> i dont ever see new resources 06:14:48 <planetmaker> noom: oil wells are supposed to disappear around the 1970s. Even in the original game they do 06:15:03 <noom> yeah its beginning to make sense now :p 06:15:03 <planetmaker> of course industries also disappear when they're not serviced 06:15:12 <noom> yep i noticed lol 06:16:45 *** noom_ [~chatzilla@CTPP-p-144-134-153-130.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:16:52 <noom_> net died, back 06:17:11 <planetmaker> prospecting is found in the adv. settings, industry construction method 06:17:44 <planetmaker> you can also build industries where you like, but it costs you 10x as much as prospecting it anywhere 06:17:59 <noom_> but you cant "buy" resources 06:18:04 <noom_> only the industry counterparts 06:18:18 <noom_> but now that i have prospecting turned on, they should randomly re-appear right ? 06:19:57 <planetmaker> New industries should always appear. Not in a spee, but every so often 06:20:14 <planetmaker> The industry construction method only defines how YOU as player can construct industries 06:20:16 <noom_> industries yeah, but not the resouce points like ore or coal 06:20:18 <planetmaker> But then you pay 06:20:24 <planetmaker> yes, of course 06:20:33 <planetmaker> they can be funded 06:20:40 <noom_> i never had the option 06:20:46 <noom_> only stuff like factories, refineries etc 06:20:59 <noom_> but never the resources 06:21:02 <planetmaker> you then always had primary industry construction turned off 06:21:06 <noom_> yeah 06:21:11 <noom_> i only JUST found the setting after you told me :D 06:21:17 <noom_> now i've got it set to prospecting 06:21:25 <planetmaker> that doesn't influence the game's industry construction at all 06:21:26 <noom_> hey...these weird radio tower thingy's 06:21:35 <noom_> cant destroy those? 06:21:35 <planetmaker> they're there to annoy you 06:21:42 <noom_> sonova 06:21:51 <noom_> picked the worst spot haha 06:22:06 <planetmaker> you can activate in the cheat menu the magic bulldozer 06:22:23 <noom_> i'm not really one for cheating 06:22:36 <planetmaker> cheating is relative. Important is that you have fun 06:22:44 <noom_> this is true 06:22:46 <planetmaker> whom would you cheat? 06:22:50 <noom_> but i find for me cheats suck the fun right out 06:22:52 <noom_> lol 06:23:05 <planetmaker> would you use it, if it "just" were another setting? 06:23:13 <noom_> doubtful :p 06:23:17 *** noom [~chatzilla@CTPP-p-144-134-157-33.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:23:19 <noom_> if there was a setting for infinite cash? nah 06:23:20 <noom_> heh 06:23:26 <noom_> maybe later when i'm just playing it as a sandbox 06:23:34 <noom_> but this early on i'm here for the authentic game experience 06:23:41 <planetmaker> cash is never an issue in these games ;-) 06:23:41 <noom_> as i've never played TTD before 06:23:48 <noom_> it is for me >.< 06:24:23 <planetmaker> good way to start: build a coal service initially. Make it a long route and not a short one 06:24:36 <noom_> yeah 06:24:38 <noom_> learnt that off the wiki 06:24:42 <noom_> easy fast good money 06:24:47 <noom_> i'm having issues though 06:24:50 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:24:54 <noom_> i'm on a map right now, with one coal mine 06:25:00 <noom_> it can only fill 3 carts for me :S 06:25:03 <noom_> can i increase that ? 06:25:13 <planetmaker> :-) 06:25:17 <noom_> i mean without telling my train to sit there blocking the lines :p 06:25:37 <planetmaker> do you use "full load" at the coal mine? 06:25:47 <noom_> no i dont like to as its part of a bigger line 06:25:56 <noom_> and i'm not good enough at track building to figure out how to stop the traffic jams 06:26:25 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:26:50 <planetmaker> the wiki has also a lot on how to build an efficient network 06:27:00 <noom_> yeah i dunno somethings just not clicking 06:27:11 <noom_> wiki is a strain on me also as i have dialup 06:27:17 <planetmaker> but the amount of industries initially on the map is one of the settings you chose when creating a new map 06:27:21 <noom_> really i need a friend RL who's mastered the art to show me hehe 06:27:23 <planetmaker> Of course it depends on the map size, too 06:27:35 <noom_> i'm trying on a 128x128 - less stuff to worry over 06:27:38 <noom_> while i'm learning 06:28:00 <noom_> the thing that's boggling me is "should i make one big line or keep them seperate" 06:28:09 <noom_> i had this track earlier, mid sections had wood going, top end had oil 06:28:19 <planetmaker> noom_: alternatively you could download a few games and have a look at them for reference. Then you don't need to be constantly online 06:28:22 <noom_> but then i had these two engines that'd haul grain and livestock down the entire track 06:28:28 <planetmaker> but 128^2 is really small 06:28:44 <planetmaker> that makes the game actually harder as you only have small distances and less revenue 06:28:49 <noom_> but i dunno it just seemed so inefficient and i had no idea how to make it better 06:28:51 <planetmaker> I like it though ;-) 06:28:59 <noom_> yeah i know, i'm just so overwhelmed right now 06:29:04 <planetmaker> Most people play around 512^2 06:29:16 <noom_> too much going on for my poor little brain :p 06:29:27 <planetmaker> it's a good size which still can be played to the end given usual computing powers 06:29:59 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:30:04 <noom_> -_- 06:30:17 <noom_> i just put in a 3rd line and i have no idea how to "link" it to my network 06:30:21 <noom_> i tried and failed about 10 times lol 06:30:32 <noom_> it just makes things stop working o.O 06:30:54 <noom_> *twitch* 06:30:56 <noom_> now i'm outa moneys 06:31:14 <noom_> i think you're right its the fact i'm making no money off my main coal lione 06:31:15 <noom_> line * 06:31:19 <noom_> might restart on a 512 06:31:23 <planetmaker> then cheat yourself money. And try to build a good network first ;-) 06:31:36 <noom_> tempt me not satan! :p 06:31:57 <planetmaker> that's easier than first trying to be profitable and then learning to build... as good building makes money-efficiency a side-effect 06:32:16 <planetmaker> but maybe you can even draw more loan 06:32:27 <planetmaker> moin Alberth :-) 06:32:28 <Alberth> reload an older save game? 06:32:34 <noom_> haha 06:32:36 <noom_> what save game? 06:32:41 <noom_> i'm such a nub i've done nothing worth saving :p 06:32:48 <Alberth> the autosave? 06:32:50 <planetmaker> automatic savegame - if turned on 06:32:52 <noom_> oh lol 06:32:53 <noom_> meh 06:33:01 <noom_> i was about 10 minutes in its no biggy 06:33:11 <noom_> i think i need to learn junctions maybe 06:33:16 <noom_> think thats what i'm missing 06:33:20 <noom_> i can never grow beyond two lines 06:33:28 <noom_> and i cant merge lines either 06:33:30 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:33:45 <Alberth> sounds like a useful skill to learn :) 06:33:53 <noom_> hehe 06:35:04 <Alberth> moin planetmaker and andythenorth_ 06:35:12 <andythenorth_> morning 06:35:18 <planetmaker> moin andythenorth_ 06:35:24 <andythenorth_> we're all very early 06:35:41 <andythenorth_> unless you stayed up all night working on nml? 06:35:44 <planetmaker> your time zone is different ;-) 06:35:48 <Alberth> it is, there is enough light now :) 06:36:08 <planetmaker> shops are already open for an hour 06:36:10 <Alberth> more lying in bed pondering :) 06:36:12 <planetmaker> or two 06:36:20 <planetmaker> haha :-) 06:36:40 <andythenorth_> I knew consists would be more complicated than they seemed :P 06:37:00 <Alberth> and it was not about consists :D 06:37:38 <Alberth> just vehicle sets with order manipulation 06:37:45 <planetmaker> so what consisted your pondering of? :-P 06:38:19 <planetmaker> -.- too slow for the pun 06:38:50 * andythenorth_ wonders if we can just keep the current system 06:39:12 <noom_> you lot developers ? 06:39:18 <andythenorth_> not me :P 06:39:31 * andythenorth_ just draws stuff 06:39:38 <Alberth> the sets are contradictionary. on the one hand, you do manual vehicle set creation, on the other hand, if I change an order I'd expect it to sort of jump to a different set by it self. 06:39:42 <noom_> something oTDD? 06:39:49 <noom_> TTD * 06:40:16 <Alberth> noom_: he makes FIRS HEQS and FISH 06:40:36 <planetmaker> [08:42] * andythenorth_ just draws stuff <-- a bit of an understatement given the 10 thousands of lines of NFO ;-) 06:40:46 <andythenorth_> I drew that :P 06:40:54 <Alberth> ROFL :) 06:40:57 <andythenorth_> I craft each character by hand in pixels 06:40:59 <noom_> i dont know what any of those things are 06:41:00 <planetmaker> :-D 06:41:06 <andythenorth_> noom_: you have a question? 06:41:35 <noom_> oh no i'm just curious as to what you're talking about :) 06:41:40 <Alberth> planetmaker: compared to the number of pixels he made, 10k lines of characters is nothing :) 06:41:50 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's more 40k lines ;-) 06:42:04 <planetmaker> 25k FIRS and the others certainly 15k combined 06:42:15 <planetmaker> but yes :-) 06:42:27 * Alberth ponders how much reduction NML would give 06:42:33 <planetmaker> not too much 06:42:41 <planetmaker> if at all 06:42:58 <planetmaker> maybe at best 15 ... 20k lines for FIRS 06:43:09 <planetmaker> it's quite efficient, templated code 06:43:32 <planetmaker> though the many #define make it big ;-) 06:43:33 <andythenorth_> sugar refineries are *very* cool 06:43:56 <andythenorth_> there are at least three different styles though :o 06:44:18 <Alberth> noom_: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45435 and http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177 06:44:36 <noom_> lol i dont click links sorry :p 06:44:56 <noom_> dialup... 06:45:22 <Alberth> you should change HEQS more often, it disappeared from the releases page :) 06:45:39 <andythenorth_> :P 06:45:52 <andythenorth_> I want to release 0.9.0 but I'm stuck 06:48:06 <noom_> i think i'm doing something wrong with signals, these tutorials i'm reading show them as always green, but mine are always red, whats the deal ? 06:48:47 <Alberth> either there are trains in the block behind it, or you are using path signals 06:48:53 <noom_> the latter 06:48:56 <noom_> is that wrong? 06:49:38 <Alberth> no, they are just a different kind of signals, I am not sure tutorials about the other signals are of any use then 06:49:53 <Alberth> (unless you want to learn about those :p ) 06:49:59 <noom_> no they arnt making a lot of sense to me o.O 06:50:04 <noom_> i just want a working network :p 06:50:10 <noom_> dont care what i have to use, i'll learn 06:50:50 <noom_> reading "owens transport" tutorials and they're just confusing me with the signal talk 06:51:22 <planetmaker> on the risk of being confusing about different versions and games, next to our wiki, there's also http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/signal/index.php?lang=en 06:51:32 <planetmaker> you look of ottd descriptions 06:52:01 <noom_> haha 06:52:07 <noom_> i already had that page open :p 06:52:11 <planetmaker> :-) 06:52:24 <noom_> yeah this is a nice site 06:52:29 <planetmaker> wiki and that are the best ones around. It can't be explained better IMHO 06:52:29 <noom_> lots of examples 06:52:35 <planetmaker> The rest is trial and error 06:53:14 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive <-- this is a collection of insane savegames 06:53:41 <planetmaker> just don't look at any which say "SRNW" or self-regulating network. ;-) 06:54:16 <planetmaker> That's abusing the path finders and ... not what one would usually consider "proper" building or networks 06:54:42 <noom_> i see 06:55:14 <noom_> heh 06:55:20 <Alberth> if you upload a save game somewhere, I am sure we can help 06:55:25 <noom_> "the basics" page from TTDX is basically explaining away every issue 06:55:35 <noom_> lol my problem was i'm just completely guessing here 06:55:41 <noom_> i'd never stopped to check out track design 06:55:49 <noom_> just used the wiki for the basics and dove right in :p 06:55:53 <planetmaker> read and try and try slightly different 06:56:00 <noom_> so i had no idea about sharing tracks, merging, junctions etc etc 06:56:02 <planetmaker> use the money cheat for trying out these things 06:56:10 <Alberth> an try some more :) 06:56:12 <planetmaker> then you don't have to pay attention to that 06:56:15 <noom_> i'd been doing point-to-point single track setups lol 06:56:20 <noom_> yeah i think i might now planet 06:56:24 <noom_> to learn how to do proper tracks 06:56:55 <planetmaker> it boils down to place signals and use bi-direction tracks 06:57:09 * Alberth is off to the super market for a bit 06:57:22 <planetmaker> good luck ;-) 06:58:00 <noom_> yeah i had gotten onto two-way tracks with signalling 06:58:02 <noom_> on my own 06:58:05 <noom_> and that was working 06:58:10 <noom_> but i couldnt merge any new lines into the network 06:58:16 <noom_> so my network turned into giant snakes 06:58:25 <noom_> with only two terminal stations 06:58:40 <peter1138> path signals (the default) are the simplest things ever :s 06:58:53 <noom_> lke "take this steel 10 tiles away" -> "ok but i'm gonna have to run along about 500 tiles of track to get there" 07:03:01 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:11:26 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:11:41 <noom_> this is beginning to feel very familiar 07:13:17 <noom_> could you say ... signals == logic gates? 07:13:33 <noom_> somethings tugging at my memories of gates heh 07:13:49 <noom_> yeah this is totally just electronic engineering all over :p 07:15:01 <planetmaker> if you mean that: yes, you can build an ALU within OpenTTD, tracks, signals and trains 07:15:17 * andythenorth_ likes the circularity 07:15:19 <noom_> thought so :p 07:15:21 <noom_> ugh 07:15:25 <noom_> no more circitry 07:15:27 <andythenorth_> Tech Model Railroad club invented computer games 07:15:35 <andythenorth_> we built a game for modelling railroads :P 07:15:37 <noom_> i've come from dwarf fortress to minecraft 07:15:46 <noom_> i'm so over circuits right now :p 07:15:51 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth_no_minecrack 07:15:58 <noom_> hahahaha! 07:16:10 *** andythenorth_no_minecrack is now known as andythenorth_ 07:16:41 <noom_> actually now that i think of it circuits in oTTD could be kinda cool 07:16:49 <noom_> the trains would be the data, so you could watch it move around heh 07:17:00 <andythenorth_> train = 1 bit 07:17:20 <noom_> yeah lol 07:17:22 <noom_> fun :D 07:17:28 <noom_> but so over my head right now 07:17:36 <noom_> *goes back to his study of signals* 07:18:42 <noom_> DF mechanics / circuits are by far my favourite 07:18:52 <noom_> i mean come on...perpetual reactor :p 07:19:22 <noom_> i've never had more fun with ascii in my life 07:25:34 <planetmaker> peter1138: would you mind to ammend the channel access list by albert, yexo, smatz, terkhen and me? 07:43:11 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.70.207.84] has joined #openttd 07:47:43 <dihedral> morning 07:47:59 <Zuu> Good morning dihedral 07:48:31 <dihedral> :) 07:54:04 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 07:58:11 <ccfreak2k> dihedral sounds like something you do when you're sick. 08:00:04 <dihedral> dihedral actually describes the (positive) angle between 2 surfaces - checkout some aviation stuff ;-) 08:00:39 <ccfreak2k> I might be checking out some aviation stuff. 08:00:45 <ccfreak2k> I've become interested in ArduPilot. 08:00:57 <dihedral> a negative dihedral angel is known as an anhedral 08:01:08 <dihedral> whats that ccfreak2k 08:01:47 <ccfreak2k> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/ardupilot-main-page 08:02:35 <dihedral> can i put that into my model rc planes? :-P 08:02:45 <ccfreak2k> Actually it's designed to be used in RC planes. 08:02:47 <ccfreak2k> So...yes. 08:02:59 <dihedral> yumm? 08:03:00 <dihedral> ^^ 08:03:07 <dihedral> no more crashes \o/ 08:03:20 <dihedral> do you know flightgear? 08:03:24 <ccfreak2k> Nope. 08:03:45 <dihedral> http://www.flightgear.org/ 08:04:02 <dihedral> there will be a new release around dec/jan 08:04:10 <dihedral> but it's worth compiling it yourself ^^ 08:04:22 <dihedral> the physics in there are awesome 08:04:41 <ccfreak2k> Speaking of flight sims, the software for ArduPilot can be used to fly a plane in xplane or one other simulator, the name of which I forgot. 08:05:01 <dihedral> then you can probably do it with FG too ^^ 08:05:37 <dihedral> and if not the boys developing fg should hurry up :-D 08:06:29 <ccfreak2k> By "software" I mean you literally plug the board itself into the computer and feed it sensor/GPS data and take the output as control input. 08:13:18 <dihedral> should work ^^ 08:13:44 <dihedral> FG as all sorts of possibly stuff build into it, e.g. various connection stuff 08:14:21 <dihedral> you can have another app display your position by opening the correct socket which pushes gps data 08:14:31 <dihedral> so i think the reverse should be possible 08:14:56 <dihedral> and if not, you can controll about anything with nasal scripts 08:16:06 <ccfreak2k> Oh, the other one is flightgear. 08:16:07 <ccfreak2k> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/the-ardupilot-fg-control-for 08:17:01 <dihedral> :-P 08:17:50 <dihedral> FG and XPlane (IIRC) are both allowed certified for Simulation purposes by the FAA 08:18:16 <ccfreak2k> Xplane certainly is. 08:18:36 <ccfreak2k> I thought for sure on of their selling points is that they were the -only- one with certification. 08:20:35 <dihedral> Xplane is, iirc there was not too long ago a certification for FG's engine but i am not 100% sure 08:21:23 <dihedral> XPlane has managed to get 'out of simulator simulation hours' 08:21:31 <dihedral> by using a certain usb stick 08:22:27 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C250.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:22:58 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.70.207.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:28:45 *** noom_ [~chatzilla@CTPP-p-144-134-153-130.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 08:41:36 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 08:45:01 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:49:15 <Terkhen> good morning 08:49:21 <Alberth> good morning 08:50:40 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9730.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:59:48 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 09:18:08 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/patches/150-callback_36_support.diff <--- I have updated to the current revision 09:19:34 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3aaf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:24:42 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC55D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:26:04 <planetmaker> Terkhen: doesn't it need assigning those values then to the default vehicles? 09:26:23 <planetmaker> or how's that handled? 09:28:21 <Terkhen> for default vehicles, GetVehicleProperty/GetEngineProperty will always return the default value (last parameter) because they don't use the callbacks 09:32:18 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:35:29 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:38:54 <planetmaker> right, ok 09:52:09 *** SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd 09:52:34 <SmatZ> hello 09:58:05 <planetmaker> hello smatz 10:02:43 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 10:07:07 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 10:21:52 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-121-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 10:31:44 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFE9BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:33:36 <SmatZ> hello planetmaker :) 10:35:26 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.138.165] has joined #openttd 10:38:10 <saronpasu> hello 10:39:41 <fjb> Moin 10:41:37 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: ^ compiling that patch 10:41:45 <andythenorth_> dunno if I'll get working code today 10:41:52 <andythenorth_> I'll try though 10:43:06 <Terkhen> okay 10:43:24 <andythenorth_> this is new: make[1]: *** No rule to make target `/Users/andy/Documents/workspace/openttd/media/extra_grf/*.pcx' 10:43:34 <andythenorth_> I've run ./configure 10:44:01 <andythenorth_> this is due to move to pngs? 10:45:15 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 10:46:28 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: do you use lzma? 10:46:55 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-113.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:47:24 <Terkhen> that is probably related to the pcx -> png change in OpenTTD; in that case you need a recent version of grfcodec 10:47:29 *** davis [~b@p5B28ADBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:33 <Terkhen> s/version/nightly/ 10:48:38 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I have png-friendly grfcodec 10:48:45 <andythenorth_> this is maybe something else 10:51:30 <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't know what is the problem then 10:51:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: sure 10:52:09 <planetmaker> otherwise I couldn't compile OpenTTD 10:52:49 <planetmaker> but your error looks like an incomplete update. 10:52:56 <planetmaker> run make mrproper firs, andythenorth_ 10:53:23 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: I've got 2 problems compiling ottd - one for lzma and one for missing .pcx 10:53:40 <planetmaker> did you run meanwhile mrproper? 10:54:06 <planetmaker> concerning lzma there's no way around than installing it 10:54:19 <andythenorth_> lzma I've installed with macports, but (as usual) it seems I need to do more :P 10:54:21 <andythenorth_> macports is crap 10:54:31 <Alberth> lzma-dev 10:54:45 <andythenorth_> install that, or set a path to it? 10:54:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: it works for me. 10:54:59 <planetmaker> liblzma 10:55:12 <planetmaker> Alberth: things are - as usual - called differently ;-) 10:55:26 <andythenorth_> thanks - installing 10:55:31 <andythenorth_> meanwhile I ran make mrproper 10:55:52 <andythenorth_> now I don't have a target for 'make bundle' :P 10:56:01 <planetmaker> of course 10:56:04 <planetmaker> ./configure && make 10:56:23 <planetmaker> why do you build bundles? 10:57:54 <andythenorth_> habit 10:59:12 <planetmaker> depends, I guess, on how you want to start it ;-) But if you build a bundle, you should - on OSX - use bundle_dmg 10:59:23 <planetmaker> just bundle is pointless 10:59:36 <planetmaker> unless you want to pass it on. And even then. 10:59:40 <andythenorth_> really? 10:59:46 <planetmaker> yes :-) 10:59:52 <planetmaker> it makes sense on other OS 11:00:05 <andythenorth_> I just use bundle which gives me an OS X package 11:00:26 <planetmaker> and bundle_dmg gives you a dmg which you can just click and be done 11:00:39 <planetmaker> if you do nothing bundle-like you can just call bin/openttd and that's it 11:01:22 <planetmaker> pointless might be too string, but... dmg is IMHO the preferred way to distribute things on OSX. And make it user-friendly 11:01:29 <planetmaker> or if you don't need that - no bundle at all 11:01:51 <planetmaker> but... doesn't really matter. If it works for you: fine :-) 11:07:07 <planetmaker> any success? 11:08:13 *** JVassie_ [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 11:10:09 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 11:10:26 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: compiled ok thanks 11:13:29 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:15:49 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-67-91.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:17:40 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:17:56 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 11:18:03 <planetmaker> sweet 11:19:14 <andythenorth_> bleargh 11:19:31 <andythenorth_> so if I use cb36, I have to explicitly set all properties that cb36 can affect! 11:19:33 <andythenorth_> :o 11:19:52 <andythenorth_> this is unexpected :P 11:19:58 <andythenorth_> and dumb 11:20:02 <andythenorth_> :) 11:20:13 <andythenorth_> or my code is wrong 11:20:29 <andythenorth_> anyone want to bet â¬1 on the answer? 11:21:00 <planetmaker> if you want to use CB36 you have to set the property which CB36 changes. Of course 11:21:30 <andythenorth_> seems I also have to set all other properties 11:21:33 <planetmaker> But... where is that unexpected? If you want to change it, you have to define it... Or do I miss something. 11:21:38 <planetmaker> That is unexpected 11:21:42 <andythenorth_> action 0 props are now ignored 11:22:03 <planetmaker> You redefine a default vehicle? 11:22:33 <andythenorth_> nope 11:22:37 <planetmaker> if you don't use a default vehicle, you have to set every property anyway 11:22:43 <planetmaker> whether you use CB36 or not 11:23:21 <andythenorth_> but this way I might as well leave out most of the action 0... 11:23:37 <planetmaker> for new vehicles you must not do that 11:23:52 * andythenorth_ thinks something wrong 11:24:04 <planetmaker> or you'd have a vehicle with everything except some undefined or zeroed 11:24:13 <planetmaker> Or I don't understand your issue 11:24:22 <planetmaker> If you define a new vehicle, you define everything 11:24:25 <planetmaker> As always 11:25:09 <andythenorth_> so I have action 0 11:25:17 <andythenorth_> defining all props correctly 11:25:31 <andythenorth_> and I have cb36 changing power 11:25:38 <planetmaker> yup 11:25:41 <andythenorth_> but all other props that cb36 can change are ow 0 11:25:46 <andythenorth_> ow / now /s 11:26:01 <planetmaker> despite you dfining them differently? 11:26:04 <planetmaker> That's... not desirable 11:26:20 <andythenorth_> must be a mistake by me 11:26:37 <andythenorth_> http://pastebin.com/NXWa6AMS 11:26:45 <andythenorth_> assume a full action 0 before that which is tested and known good 11:27:36 <andythenorth_> hmm 11:27:43 <andythenorth_> there is another variable here :) 11:27:49 * andythenorth_ tests 11:28:31 <andythenorth_> oh 11:28:37 <andythenorth_> I can't blame Terkhen for this :( 11:29:22 <andythenorth_> I'm returning 00 as the cb result, so this makes sense 11:29:28 <andythenorth_> I don't know what else to do though 11:30:22 <planetmaker> return CB failed. There's a special value for that 11:31:10 <Terkhen> the patch is coded just by blindly imitating train code, so I wouldn't be much surprised if it fails 11:31:10 *** Yexo [~Yexo@62.140.137.113] has joined #openttd 11:31:56 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I'm coding a train first :P 11:31:56 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:32:03 <andythenorth_> so I know if *my* code is any good :D 11:32:38 <planetmaker> you could look at 2cctrainset 11:32:41 <planetmaker> It uses that a lot 11:33:08 <planetmaker> especially the MUs like ICE etc 11:43:29 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 11:53:13 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cf3c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:00:59 *** JVassie_ [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:01:04 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 12:02:00 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [] 12:07:16 <andythenorth_> @seen frosch123 12:07:16 <DorpsGek> andythenorth_: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 17 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: * frosch123 runs to sports :) 12:07:51 * andythenorth_ wonders how to make a cb fail 12:09:29 <planetmaker> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CallbacksTut <-- does it help? 12:09:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth_: return 0xFFFF? 12:10:49 <andythenorth_> think that's equivalent to return 0xFF80 (due to patch legacy compatibility) 12:11:23 * andythenorth_ sees how to do it 12:11:46 <andythenorth_> yay 12:12:02 <andythenorth_> return a regular action 2 ID for graphics 12:12:43 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-108.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 12:14:28 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f9d2:f52:5569:2a7e] has joined #openttd 12:14:31 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> calback failed means you forgot to add 0x8000 to the result 12:15:21 <andythenorth_> sometimes a cb should fail :) 12:15:32 * andythenorth_ ponders a new problem with buy menu & cb36 12:17:41 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: cb36 rv - power is 0B? 12:17:43 <andythenorth_> in var 10? 12:18:03 <andythenorth_> looks like 0B is setting TE to me 12:19:02 <andythenorth_> perhaps not 12:19:28 * andythenorth_ reads the diff 12:19:57 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f8e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:19:57 <andythenorth_> 2,550hp unimog :D 12:20:09 <Terkhen> 0x13 for power 12:20:19 <andythenorth_> I should read the code before asking ;) 12:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> err... you attached a jet turbine to it? :p 12:20:25 <Terkhen> it works? :) 12:20:32 <andythenorth_> power appears to 12:20:35 <andythenorth_> I'll test the others 12:20:37 <Terkhen> nice 12:20:43 <xiong> PPPP: http://i53.tinypic.com/290xzqq.png 12:21:54 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: weight, TE and power work 12:21:57 <andythenorth_> we seem to be missing speed 12:25:41 <Terkhen> great :) 12:25:47 <Terkhen> can you upload the test grf somewhere? 12:25:54 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:58 <Terkhen> speed is not covered by this patch 12:27:32 <planetmaker> would be nice ;-) 12:27:59 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/heqs-nightly-r479M.zip 12:28:12 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: can I request speed? :) 12:28:14 <planetmaker> you know... v2 of the vehicle has 200hp and drives 270km/h instead of only 175hp and 245km/h :-P 12:28:30 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 12:28:31 <planetmaker> capacity decreased from 3 to 2, though ;-) 12:29:48 <Terkhen> okay, I'll get to it later :) 12:30:41 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:31:52 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 12:34:29 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9730.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:45:26 *** murr4y [~murray@146.84-48-66.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 12:53:17 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 13:07:45 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:08:06 * andythenorth_ ponders orders / consists / groups some more 13:08:21 <andythenorth_> Alberth: how about just improve shared orders and forget the rest of it as too complicated? :P 13:08:30 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: which vehicle is using the callbacks and what do I need to do to activate them? 13:08:42 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: gmund mog 13:08:42 * Terkhen likes that idea 13:08:46 <andythenorth_> there are road and rail versions 13:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb1ga6GdL61qb42iqo1_500.jpg <-- this should be implemented in openttd! 13:09:05 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: you should see stupid values for the road version weight / TE / power 13:09:26 <andythenorth_> appears to work in buy menu 13:10:17 <Alberth> how are shared orders broken? 13:10:25 <andythenorth_> Alberth: ask Brianetta 13:11:00 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 13:11:01 <Terkhen> it reaches its max speed in 1/4 tile :P 13:11:17 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I think it would haul quite well also 13:11:23 <andythenorth_> ...if we had rv-wagons :P 13:12:04 <Brianetta> Alberth: In so many ways 13:12:44 <Brianetta> Alberth: http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Reworked_groups 13:13:18 <Alberth> I have read that 13:13:34 <Brianetta> Then you have my POV 13:13:36 <Brianetta> since I wrote that 13:13:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.185.6] has joined #openttd 13:14:23 <Brianetta> If seven bullet points doesn't explain it, then there's no way I can simplify it for you here. 13:14:54 <andythenorth_> Alberth: how about we change nothing :D 13:15:11 <Alberth> andythenorth_: you are free to do so :) 13:15:16 * andythenorth_ changes nothing 13:15:34 <Alberth> he, please leave nothing empty ! 13:15:41 * Brianetta hasn't played OpenTTD for years, principally because he's tired of this brokenness. 13:15:56 <Brianetta> It's not just orders; so much of it has evolved rather than been designed. 13:16:33 <Alberth> Brianetta: it is not that think it is too difficult, it seems just too specific for one style of playing 13:16:35 <Brianetta> Like real lif, this doesn't, and can't, lead to perfection. It's survival of the least crap. 13:16:51 <Brianetta> Alberth: One style of playing is all you have right now. 13:16:57 <Brianetta> I tried to introduce my wife to the game. 13:17:08 <Alberth> yeah yeah, i know 13:17:13 <Brianetta> Ordering vehicles confused her to the point of "let's just watch a film." 13:17:22 <Alberth> you told that already 3 times 13:17:30 <Brianetta> She's not the only one. 13:17:45 <Brianetta> The system in place at the moment is intuitive only to those who are used to it. 13:18:08 <Brianetta> Unfortunately, that includes all the devs and almost all of the voices on the forum. 13:18:25 *** davis [~b@p5B28ADBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:18:49 <Brianetta> I'll happily explain my case when asked, like now, but in general I'm disinclined to try to move this boulder of resistance. 13:18:57 <Brianetta> There are other things I can do with my time. 13:21:23 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.29.246] has joined #openttd 13:22:47 <Alberth> I am happy to include your style, but not at the cost of the existing styles 13:22:54 <Brianetta> It's not a style 13:22:56 <Brianetta> It's a UI 13:23:00 <Brianetta> for something that has none 13:24:27 <xiong> Brianetta, I'm pretty new to OTTD; I tend not to be swayed by /status quo/ arguments. Which is another way of saying, I'm interested in what you have to say. 13:24:46 <Brianetta> xiong: Good luck with that. 13:24:55 <xiong> Er, with which? 13:25:28 <Brianetta> With what I have to say. You're showing an interest in something I've been saying for several years. 13:25:47 <Brianetta> Experience shows that it doesn't really make any difference. 13:27:46 <Terkhen> now I remember why I did not implement speed callback for road vehicles 13:28:21 <xiong> Brianetta, I'm a realist; but I'm also a progressive. 13:29:01 <Terkhen> should it affect rv property 0x08, 0x15 or a different callback for each property? 13:29:02 <xiong> I believe in the possibility of change and also the difficulty of it. 13:29:06 <Brianetta> Me too. I've just, basically, given up on trying to change OpenTTD. I have plenty of other hobbies (: 13:29:17 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: what do trains do? 13:29:24 <Terkhen> I think that 0x15 should be enough 13:29:32 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: they don't have two different properties for speed 13:30:14 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm134.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 13:30:17 <andythenorth_> bah 13:31:12 <Terkhen> :) 13:31:59 <planetmaker> :-( Brianetta only seems to return to abuse OpenTTD development 13:32:22 * andythenorth_ apologises 13:32:24 <andythenorth_> generally 13:32:26 <Brianetta> I'm usually here. I only pop up when somebody summons me. 13:32:43 <Terkhen> TTDPatch does not seem to implement callback 36 for road vehicle speed 13:32:53 <Terkhen> maybe I should provide callbacks for both properties for compatibility anyways 13:33:37 <Terkhen> oh, it implements property 0x15 too so compatibility is not an issue 13:33:42 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I have no idea which is right 13:33:46 <Brianetta> OpenTTD development does have a number of issues. Sanctity of the status quo being one, and the lack of design being probably the biggest. 13:34:12 <Brianetta> The game evolves; survival of the best of the submitted patches. 13:34:18 <Brianetta> It's not design-led. 13:34:24 <andythenorth_> no it's like PHP 13:34:34 <planetmaker> Brianetta: then post some sensible stuff in the vision for OpenTTD 2.0 13:34:45 <Brianetta> planetmaker: How would that be useful? 13:34:47 <planetmaker> OpenTTD's goal for 1.0 was to have a completely free TTD 13:34:52 <planetmaker> that is well-achieved 13:35:04 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I guess that the "right" way is to implement both callbacks and let them have the same priorities that the properties have 13:35:14 <Terkhen> I just doubt that it is useful at all 13:35:16 <Brianetta> That just defines the requirements for a given number. 13:35:29 <planetmaker> Brianetta: you lament about a lack of design or vision or whatever. And then you ask why the same is sensible or useful? 13:35:39 <Brianetta> That's not design 13:35:44 <Brianetta> That's a version number definition 13:35:57 <Brianetta> The closest thing this game has to any sort of design document is the roadmap 13:36:07 <planetmaker> there's no road map 13:36:09 <Brianetta> In any software house, that would be laughable 13:36:16 <Brianetta> There used to be a roadmap 13:36:29 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 13:36:29 <Brianetta> http://wiki.openttd.org/Roadmap 13:36:34 * andythenorth_ shrugs 13:36:36 <Brianetta> Oh look, there it is 13:36:45 <planetmaker> yes. And then look who writes it 13:36:57 <Brianetta> It used to be more full of stuff 13:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more like a wishlist of users than an actual roadmap of developers 13:37:40 <Brianetta> http://wiki.openttd.org/Roadmap_1.0 13:37:43 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly 13:37:56 <planetmaker> The only way I can understand you currently is that you fail to see your ideas implemented - and call that lack of design 13:37:56 <Brianetta> yet it's still the closest thing to a design document of any sort 13:38:14 <Brianetta> planetmaker: No; my ideas has nothing to do with my argument 13:38:40 <planetmaker> Then please define what you call 'design' in this context 13:38:41 <Brianetta> I've done my fair share of testing, bug reporting etc 13:38:47 <planetmaker> I know that 13:39:03 <planetmaker> I started playing on your servers. Was my first MP OpenTTD ever 13:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you are right, development is not design-driven. but given the nature of the project, it doesn't need to be and it would probably do more harm than good if it were 13:39:08 <Brianetta> pre version 0.5 I was already getting disappointed at the lack of any clear design 13:39:31 <planetmaker> again: what is 'design' for you in this context 13:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> design-driven development can only work if you have paid developers who you can tell what they should do 13:39:46 <Brianetta> Well, you remember autopilot? 13:39:52 <planetmaker> we use it, yes 13:39:53 <Brianetta> Design, in this case, is a ring binder 13:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it just doesn't work with open source 13:40:02 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: it can 13:40:08 <Brianetta> although it oculd have been docs online 13:40:09 <andythenorth_> but not with this kind of open source 13:40:22 <Brianetta> Of course it works with open source 13:40:26 <Brianetta> MySQL is designed 13:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "open source" was the wrong expression 13:40:31 <Brianetta> Apache is designed 13:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "hobby projects" might be better 13:40:37 <Brianetta> Even X 13:40:49 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:50 <Brianetta> Well, they'll never become more than hobby projects 13:40:52 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:40:57 <Brianetta> and like I said, I have other hobbies 13:41:09 * Terkhen will just ignore property 0x08 for now 13:41:13 <xiong> Brianetta, I agree with you theoretically. I plan before I build; I plan a lot before I build at all. That's what this is: http://i53.tinypic.com/290xzqq.png 13:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> right, but i see no need for it to be more than a hobby project 13:41:40 <planetmaker> not a hobby project would imply someone would be willing to pay for it 13:41:48 <planetmaker> I don't see that happening 13:42:06 <xiong> When I write code, I plan ahead, too. I write design goals first, then I write tests, then I write code to pass the tests. I document everything thoroughly; I comment heavily. 13:42:14 * andythenorth_ is confused 13:42:16 <planetmaker> besides I've still not seen what here is lacking design 13:42:23 <andythenorth_> it *is* a hobby project yes / no? 13:42:25 <andythenorth_> that's the point? 13:42:31 <Brianetta> Thing is, it's somebody else's hobby. Contributing to it is about as fulfilling as helping somebody else rebuild their car. It's their car, not mine, and I'll never feel like I have a stake. 13:42:46 <planetmaker> is it? 13:42:53 <Brianetta> Of course. 13:42:59 * planetmaker shrugs 13:43:01 <xiong> But the plan fact is that OTTD is a 'jest grew' project. Impossible to guide development in any direction. 13:43:07 <planetmaker> then it's no fun. 13:43:42 * planetmaker doesn't nor didn't feel that way. As people usually listen(ed) to arguments 13:43:46 <Brianetta> Simutrans was designed. It's looking like a better game, atm. 13:43:53 *** abb-maz [~svkoskin@hoasnet-fe17dd00-222.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:44:04 <Brianetta> If I decided to devote time to gaming again I'd probably give it another chance first. 13:44:18 <planetmaker> Honestly: do we get some constructive word of you today? Or not? 13:44:28 <abb-maz> is there a unofficial port of OpenTTD for OS X? 13:44:29 <Brianetta> Not really. 13:44:44 <xiong> planetmaker, You have been here through almost all of the time I've had anything at all to say. You know better. 13:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause> abb-maz: if you mean "it usually compiles", then yes. 13:45:12 <andythenorth_> abb-maz: I compiled this morning on 10.5 13:45:16 <andythenorth_> there are binaries in the forums 13:45:20 <andythenorth_> (not from me) 13:45:22 <abb-maz> okay 13:45:51 <xiong> Brianetta, I don't think any of this is meant to be taken seriously. 13:45:51 *** Yexo_ [~Yexo@62.140.137.113] has joined #openttd 13:45:52 <planetmaker> xiong: I hear your words, though their meaning eludes me 13:46:34 * Brianetta no longer takes any of this seriously 13:46:50 * planetmaker assumed so 13:47:15 *** Yexo_ [~Yexo@62.140.137.113] has quit [] 13:47:21 <planetmaker> but as it's a hobby project... let it go when it's no fun. But stop bitching and spoiling other people's fun 13:47:34 <xiong> planetmaker, You do not have room in this community for radical innovation of the sort that requires a lot of current stuff to be thrown out. New stuff can be added, incrementally; and there's always the possibility that someone will put in a great deal of effort on his own, in some direction. 13:47:38 *** abb-maz [~svkoskin@hoasnet-fe17dd00-222.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 13:47:42 <Brianetta> I'll happily stick my thoughts on the wiki if asked (and I was asked). 13:48:12 <Brianetta> xiong: There are plenty of big patches that cost loads of hard work which were never included. 13:48:12 <xiong> But there's no overall design or set of guiding principles. I'm not quite sure it's a big deal. 13:48:20 <andythenorth_> there are principles 13:48:27 <andythenorth_> 1. don't break network play 13:48:41 <andythenorth_> I think that's about it actually :P 13:48:47 <xiong> Yes. 13:49:02 <planetmaker> 2. try to limit the extend that existing stuff is broken 13:49:19 <andythenorth_> 3. try not to suck 13:49:29 <Brianetta> 4. Try not to introduce change that will confuse and frighten the old timers. 13:49:35 <xiong> Dev has proceeded mostly by seeing a more or less immediately available goal and moving toward it. 13:50:00 <Brianetta> even if that impedes the possibility of other features in the future 13:50:06 <planetmaker> if immediately available is something like two years horizon... maybe 13:50:17 <Brianetta> Timetables, for example 13:50:32 <Brianetta> They don't need to happen because, "Oh, we have those already" 13:50:45 <Brianetta> well, there's a feature with that name, sure 13:50:45 <planetmaker> ... whatever 13:50:45 <xiong> It's formless expansion. The thing about this that upsets Platonists, Brianetta, such as you and I, is that this kind of unstructured growth often works, more or less. 13:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: i think you're wrong there... 13:51:00 <Brianetta> So does evolution 13:51:07 <Brianetta> but it doesn't bring the best 13:51:10 <Brianetta> just the least worst 13:51:28 <planetmaker> that's a statement which is not true 13:51:36 <Brianetta> which part of it? 13:51:49 <planetmaker> "evolution brings the least worst" 13:51:56 <Brianetta> then you don't understand it 13:52:01 *** Yexo [~Yexo@62.140.137.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:52:03 <xiong> Evolution doesn't bring the best or the least worst. It brings what it brings. 13:52:07 <andythenorth_> evolution is not a proper scientific theory, so be careful which claims you make :P 13:52:08 <planetmaker> I do understand quite well how evolution works 13:52:22 <Brianetta> The fittest survive, but aren't necessarily the best solution 13:52:23 <planetmaker> in a darwinistic sense 13:52:30 <xiong> It's not really survival of the fittest; it's survival of what survives. 13:52:35 <planetmaker> I don't say it brings the best possible 13:52:39 <planetmaker> But so doesn't design 13:52:42 <planetmaker> Most often 13:52:42 <Brianetta> They're simply better than the competition, and adequate for reproduction. 13:53:08 <planetmaker> And often enough evolution brings the besto possible given the available ressources 13:53:17 <Brianetta> not the best 13:53:20 <Brianetta> we could design better 13:53:25 <planetmaker> sure 13:53:27 <Brianetta> but that stuff can't evolve 13:53:30 <planetmaker> then design me an eye 13:53:33 <xiong> What is the best? How would you know it, if you saw it? 13:53:47 <Brianetta> I have a camera here that functions better than a human eye in most respects 13:53:50 <Hirundo> the fact that it can't evolve, makes that it's not 'better' 13:53:56 <planetmaker> Brianetta: that's laughable 13:54:01 * Brianetta shrugs 13:54:03 <Brianetta> then laugh 13:54:14 * andythenorth_ somewhat regrets starting this, as no useful code is being written :( 13:54:14 <xiong> Seriously! 13:54:17 <xiong> What is the best? How would you know it, if you saw it? 13:54:32 <Brianetta> having a dead spot on the retina, right next to the maccula, would be improved by nut using an inside out retina. 13:54:41 <Brianetta> Then we wouldn't have problems with them detaching, either 13:54:53 <Brianetta> but that's an improvement that will never be come about by evolution 13:55:02 <xiong> I did not say, How would you know something that was not the best? I said, How would you know the best? 13:55:04 <Brianetta> s/nut/not/ 13:55:11 <Hirundo> Now 'design' that, so it can grow from a single cell 13:55:23 <Brianetta> xiong: We don't need to know it, but we should at least strive for it 13:56:12 <Hirundo> If you determine 'quality of design' by our human standards, you'd certainly not be able to determine what is 'best' without horrible mistakes 13:56:13 <xiong> How can you strive for the best if you don't know what it is? How do you know when to stop, when moving in a given direction, if you don't know when you've arrived at the optimum? 13:56:14 <Brianetta> Hirundo: I am not a cytobiologist. I have friends that might know where they could start, but I think you know as well as I do that technology isn't that good yet, and that this point has nothing to do with the argument. 13:56:19 <andythenorth_> comparing OTTD development to darwinian evolution is a bollocks argument anyway 13:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: that should teach you to not wake a sleeping Brianetta :p 13:56:35 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-113.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:56:36 <andythenorth_> ottd does not evolve in a competitive environment over 10s of thousands of generations 13:56:44 <Brianetta> Sure it does 13:56:48 <Brianetta> well, its patches do 13:57:21 <xiong> andythenorth_, No, disagree, sorry. It's not biological but it is distributed development without strong central control. 13:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> incremental development and evolution are not the same thing 13:57:48 <Brianetta> It's only incremental in terms of commits to trunk 13:58:07 <Brianetta> patches are being developed all the time, many of them compete to serve the same function. Most never make it. 13:58:21 <andythenorth_> it's got nothing to do with the eye as a functional mechanism for living organisms to boost survival / reproductive fitness chances 13:58:48 * xiong is getting bored and thinking about hot chocolate with exactly three mini-marshmallows 13:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause> development is always something that imposes changes from outside, whereas evolution is changing from the inside 13:58:50 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 13:59:16 <Brianetta> Whatever. OpenTTD isnt made any better by this argument. 14:00:12 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 14:00:38 <xiong> Brianetta, Do you know anything about this stuff? I'm not meaning to be rude; I don't know you or your level of experience. I have almost none and know very little. 14:00:43 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.64.199.220] has joined #openttd 14:01:05 <Brianetta> xiong: Which stuff? 14:01:59 * planetmaker somehow doubts that many people possess a camera which is difraction limited by the resolution, has such a wide zoom range and as good a self-repair mechanism as the human eye 14:02:04 <xiong> So far, I've just about got gameplay figured out, sort of, at some intermediate level. I've written a list of Pennsylvania Town Names and turned it into a .grf but I can't figure out how to distribute it. And I'm trying to design bigger, schematic rail signals but can't interest anyone in it. 14:02:11 <Brianetta> Zoom range> 14:02:15 <Brianetta> What are you on? 14:02:40 <xiong> Um, and I'm in the middle of doing some stuff on the wiki. 14:02:50 <xiong> On? 14:02:58 <planetmaker> and has such excellent auto-gain 14:03:05 <Brianetta> And I can measure the diffraction of my camera's lens at small apertures 14:03:18 <planetmaker> you need to change lenses, though 14:03:41 <Brianetta> You can't change lenses with a human eye, or zoom the one it has 14:03:54 <lugo> evolution should have had a roadmap 14:03:54 <planetmaker> exactly 14:03:57 <xiong> Brianetta, Sorry. Do you know anything about the technical side of OTTD? 14:04:04 <Brianetta> xiong: Yes, a fair bit 14:04:17 * Brianetta has dismantled the network code 14:04:22 <xiong> Not to be rude; I'm just trying to get to know you. I know nothing. 14:04:36 <Brianetta> I'm not familiar with the entire code base 14:04:53 <Brianetta> but I've played the game extensively and intensively 14:05:22 <xiong> Okay, well, that sounds to me like you know some stuff. You probably understand NewGRF well. 14:05:41 <Brianetta> I know ow it works, but I've never written any NFO code 14:06:30 *** rellig [~rellig@vs1191017.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 14:07:02 <xiong> So, please take a look at this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50450&p=908871 -- this is 'bigsig'. 14:07:31 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:36 <xiong> Work your way through it; I'm on the 003 design now. Tell me if you think it can be implemented. 14:09:48 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.64.199.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:09:53 <Brianetta> I'm sure it could. 14:10:08 <Brianetta> I never had much problem seeing and getting information from existing signals 14:11:08 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:12:26 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.64.199.220] has joined #openttd 14:13:15 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:13:31 <planetmaker> hm, these onions are good. They make me cry :-P 14:14:41 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:16:07 <xiong> Brianetta, Well, I have terrible trouble. I imagine other old guys with poor eyesight, esp. new to the game, have similar troubles. It's not so bad if you just signal everything, everywhere with 1-path sigs. But complicated pre-signal layouts are just too hard for me to visualize. 14:16:51 <xiong> So, here it is: I can design the graphics but I don't have the skill to build them into a .grf; others have the skill but lack the inclination. 14:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> coding signal graphics is trivial 14:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't hear me, so i can't help you 14:18:13 <xiong> The point being, I guess, that it's not enough to have an idea, good or not. This is a DIY thing. You say you have ideas; well, great. Are you asking for help? So am I. 14:18:41 <Alberth> qed :) 14:18:59 <xiong> I suspect I can ask all day but bigsig will never get out until I have the time and desire to learn how to do it all by myself. 14:19:28 <xiong> Considering that I have plenty of work to do, completely unrelated to OTTD, that time may be never. 14:19:30 <Alberth> that holds pretty much for everything that reaches realization 14:19:52 <xiong> Alberth, Disagree. In some circles, mutual support is taken for granted. 14:20:14 <planetmaker> oh, be sure it exists here, too 14:20:21 <planetmaker> I got so many ponies already... 14:20:40 <xiong> Brianetta, I will make a deal with you, though. If you sign up for bigsig, I will make a similar commitment to develop graphics, text, or other things within my skill set for *your* big thing. 14:20:44 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 14:21:05 <planetmaker> there exists a commit which reads along the lines of "make planetmaker and Ammler happy" ;-) 14:21:15 <Brianetta> xiong: I'm not developing anything. 14:21:29 <xiong> I have a considerable skill set; it extends to such things as glass blowing. I'm at your disposal. 14:21:47 <Brianetta> You're asking me to learn how to make newgrf for you. 14:21:55 <xiong> Brianetta, Well, I hope you see my point, then. 14:22:03 <Brianetta> not really 14:22:13 <Brianetta> it's not like I've done nothing around here 14:22:16 <planetmaker> xiong: the point with your newgrfs is: you only show teasers. you didn't produce any usable sprites 14:22:18 <Brianetta> it's just that I gave up 14:22:38 <planetmaker> as long as you don't do that no one even can help you with the best of intentions 14:22:44 <xiong> planetmaker, Let's talk about that. First, I want to tell my shaggy dog story. 14:23:06 <Alberth> xiong: we care very little for tales, but much more for solid work 14:23:34 <xiong> Way back in the Bad Old Days, I was a member of the L5 Society. We had meetings, we talked endlessly; but we did very little. A common complaint was, "We lack leadership." Gary used to say, "We have plenty of leadership. We don't have enough followership." 14:23:41 * planetmaker picks another onion 14:23:44 <xiong> Too bad. I like. 14:24:10 <xiong> planetmaker, Alberth, I'm sorry if you don't respect the work I've already put in. 14:25:01 <xiong> You want "a usable set of sprites"? Then you need to say that you will do something with them; you need to be willing to take time to help me with the technical requirements. I've done quite a bit blind, on spec, and got nothing like support. 14:25:37 <planetmaker> xiong: *everyone* who wants to help you needs those sprites. So you may as well produce them 14:25:45 <xiong> I'm not exactly complaining about this; I would have it otherwise but... that's life. 14:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't watch this... 14:26:12 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!] 14:26:12 <xiong> planetmaker, Nobody wants to help. You see the little blank space at the bottom? Nobody has filled that in. 14:26:15 <planetmaker> when I have a pony to grow I go as far as I can go alone. And then ask for help 14:26:30 <planetmaker> You just say "I'll rasie a pony, if someone buys it" oh well 14:26:35 <xiong> You don't like my style. That's fine. 14:27:25 <xiong> It's not your special responsibility to take it up. All your comments have been negative: basically, the idea is silly and unnecessary. I stress that I support your right to see it that way. 14:27:56 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3aaf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:28:04 <Alberth> xiong: continuing whining about it is not going to get solid work 14:28:24 <xiong> Alberth, Where is the 'whine'? 14:28:29 <planetmaker> xiong: I've already coded stuff which I personally care very little about but which others find useful. So even if I personally don't like something graphically I can like it for its purpose and enough other people taking a fancy 14:28:31 <xiong> I said, that's fine. 14:29:12 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:29:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21058 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp newgrf_properties.h roadveh.h): -Feature [NewGRF]: Add CB36 support for road vehicle properties 0x13 (Power), 0x14 (Weight) and 0x18 (Tractive effort). 14:29:33 <xiong> You're not willing to meet me where I ran out of gas. I can't go further. Therefore, the truck is dead, until either someone takes an interest or I learn more. That's fine. 14:29:33 <Alberth> xiong: so what have you been doing the last 10 minutes then? 14:30:14 <xiong> Alberth, Are you going to get into this groove where you just decide that anything I say is BS? Tell me now. Because then we can /ignore each other and live in peace. 14:31:06 <Alberth> xiong: if you want those signs, stop talking, and start drawing. Whoever is coding, you need finished sprites first 14:31:14 <xiong> What I've been doing for the last 45 minutes is try to explain to Brianetta my view of his view. 14:31:27 <xiong> Alberth, You really don't get it, do you? I drew. 14:31:30 <xiong> There they are. 14:31:33 <planetmaker> xiong: all he (and I) say is: you talk about what you would do but don't do as _we_ - in your eyes - would not like it. Oh well 14:32:28 <planetmaker> or in other words: if you want something done: invest more than a concept 14:33:02 <xiong> planetmaker, I meant to word it more strongly. You just can't expect a lot of help around here. You do for self. 14:33:37 <xiong> My project will move forward when I learn more or not at all. 14:33:48 <xiong> Same thing for whatever Brianetta's ideas may be. 14:34:02 <planetmaker> you just need to draw. 14:34:10 <planetmaker> you were told all necessary ressources. 14:34:20 <planetmaker> And all which followed is you telling us what you might do if 14:34:25 <xiong> planetmaker, What part of 'draw' am I missing? Do you see the sketch? 14:34:25 <planetmaker> <whatever> 14:34:35 <planetmaker> I see a sketch. But not more 14:34:39 <planetmaker> nothing usable 14:34:45 <xiong> Now it is time for somebody to join me, or for me to learn to do it all myself. 14:35:07 <xiong> 'Usable' comes when I learn what 'usable' is. 14:35:09 <planetmaker> you just need to draw the sprites 14:35:16 <xiong> Right. 14:35:26 <planetmaker> and I showed you how the existing signal sprites look like. So 14:35:27 <Alberth> xiong: look at existing signal sprites 14:36:16 <planetmaker> make for each existing one, one of your own design and it's 75% of the job done 14:36:22 <xiong> Listen, you guys. You are going to stand there, three feet away from me; and you are not going to budge. I'm going to stand here, three feet away from you; and I'm not going to budge. I'm not trying to move you, not anymore. Why try to move me? 14:37:02 <planetmaker> xiong: then tell us: what help do you need? 14:37:07 <planetmaker> which we can provide? 14:37:13 <planetmaker> at this point of your "project" 14:37:19 <xiong> I *require*, absolutely, a commitment. 14:37:37 <xiong> That's first. That's not a joke nor do I consider it a trivial issue. 14:37:55 <Alberth> why do you require that, and why should we give that? 14:38:23 <xiong> I don't feel comfortable discussing the project here, at all, especially in the face of lack of interest. I raised the topic solely as an object lesson to Brianetta. 14:38:52 <xiong> Alberth, Do you, personally, have the slightest interest in bigsig? If not, then the point is moot. 14:39:48 <xiong> You have your value scale; I have mine. I don't want to argue you out of yours. Okay? 14:40:23 <Alberth> I won't use bigsig, but if I can make you happy in 10 minutes, why not 14:40:38 <xiong> Because it won't take 10 minutes. 14:40:52 <Alberth> why not? 14:41:25 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f8e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:26 <Alberth> coding by an experienced NFO coder will take about that much time, if not less 14:41:27 <xiong> It would probably take more than 10 minutes to explain it to you. I would say why, and you would ask why again, and so forth. 14:41:47 <xiong> Why should I inflict this on anyone? 14:42:24 <xiong> I wrote up a good thread. The thing is out there. Perhaps it will attract interest. Perhaps I'll come back to it in a year or 5. I dunno. 14:42:29 <Alberth> I am not the person you want for that job, but if you make the project to that point, I am sure someone can put some nfo code around it 14:42:38 <xiong> I'm not. 14:43:06 <xiong> Also, 'to that point' is hotly contested. 14:43:42 <xiong> I don't know what 'that point' is and it will take considerable time to get 'that point' across to me, because I ask questions. 14:43:44 <planetmaker> xiong: see: the fact that this discussion exists makes me quite sceptical that there even if I should say - boah, great, I want that and I'll see what I can do - (and I did say that already!) - it will ever see any work from you 14:44:03 <xiong> You are mistrustful. 14:44:07 <planetmaker> As such I won't at any point repeat any commitment statement 14:44:21 <Alberth> 'that point' is a set of actually usable signal sprites in a correct image format, it is as simple as that 14:44:22 <planetmaker> my trust was so far disappointed by you on all levels 14:44:24 <xiong> I showed work of mine. I don't recall anyone paying much attention. 14:44:43 <xiong> I am mistrustful. 14:44:56 <planetmaker> your problem 14:45:03 <xiong> I worked up Pennsy Town Names and you have yet to do anything with it. 14:45:28 <xiong> Well, that's my point. You don't trust me; I don't trust you. There it is. 14:45:37 <Alberth> didn't you refuse to publish them properly? 14:45:47 <xiong> Alberth, I don't know how! 14:45:55 <planetmaker> they're done. And you fail to release them. And more important: I didn't receive anything from you. So I can say you lie that I *could* have done anything at all 14:46:12 <xiong> I emailed you, as you suggested. 14:46:39 <planetmaker> never received anything. Besides I told you: it's fine as is. Just upload it 14:46:40 <Alberth> post at the forum, get an account at bananas, add them there 14:47:09 <planetmaker> Alberth: that newgrf is even finished. He just needs a buddy to upload it *somewhere* 14:47:19 <xiong> Alberth, this is a question of planetmaker's ability to take over another person's work. 14:47:40 <planetmaker> I'm not interestend in the town names myself much. 14:47:43 <Alberth> xiong: in my view, an author himself should release his own work 14:48:02 <planetmaker> Besides the work is done. So I don't see where I have to be involved. AND I DIDN'T RECEIVE ANYTHING 14:48:04 <xiong> There's more to be done; I don't know exactly what. Part of it is the license issue. But really, at this point, I just want to see you pick up anything where I leave off. 14:48:11 <Alberth> I don't see why anyone else would have to do that 14:48:18 <xiong> Alberth, I consider the authorship shared. 14:48:35 <xiong> There's no 'have to do' here. 14:48:37 <Alberth> you heard pm, he is not interested in shared authorship 14:48:56 <xiong> Ah, but then he raised an objection to my licensing intent. 14:49:06 <Alberth> ie it was a gift of time to you to finish the set 14:49:23 <xiong> planetmaker, Would it make any difference if I tried to email you again? 14:50:06 <xiong> Alberth, Look, I don't see what you're trying to do here. Do you even want to know every bloody detail? 14:50:22 <Alberth> no, I don't 14:50:27 <xiong> I mean, really. I don't see the point of whipping this up into a froth. 14:50:35 <xiong> So, why put in? 14:51:59 <xiong> planetmaker, I email you. You say you didn't get. Should I email you again? 14:52:14 <xiong> Would you like to offer an email addy? 14:52:26 <planetmaker> xiong: I consider that newgrf 100% your work. Not mine 14:52:31 <planetmaker> I'm not a newgrf publisher 14:53:14 <xiong> Fine. But then I will remain convinced that it will be a bad bet for me to invest work in a project, hoping you will step in and help. Do you see that? 14:53:33 <xiong> You are not willing to commit. I am. 14:53:51 <xiong> But I'm not willing to go further on spec, without anyone else committed. 14:55:19 <xiong> I've already committed heavily to bigsig. I've written in forum, I've drawn sketches, and I've formally committed to handling the graphics. I'm not shy. Nobody else is willing to say even one line: 'Yeah, I'm in.' Silly for me to continue. \ 14:55:41 <planetmaker> xiong: the issue I have with _your_ town names is two: a) I would feel like betrying you for half the fruits of your work and b) it would do you good to be able to publish yourself, so I don't want to become your publishing slave for the future to come 14:55:58 <xiong> My point exactly. 14:56:45 <planetmaker> AND: this is definitely not a work you cannot do yourself. So you do not NEED help 14:56:50 <xiong> Bigsig will come out when I learn enough to bring it out myself. I understand this. 14:56:57 <planetmaker> So I don't see where you get the 'I get no help and support' 14:57:13 <planetmaker> I walked you through writing the newgrf happily. But it's your work. Not mine 14:57:25 <planetmaker> I see my task in helping you grow accustomed to how things work 14:57:38 <xiong> I didn't say that at all. I appreciate the help you've already given. But you're not reliable about it, that's all. Nor do you need to be; this isn't $work. 14:57:39 <planetmaker> Not mine in co-sharing every project you might ever take a fancy in 14:58:05 <xiong> What do you want? 14:58:22 <xiong> I don't blame you for anything. I don't demand anything from you. 14:59:15 <xiong> I don't go around saying you are a bad person. I just say, I can't trust you to finish my work. You say, you don't want to finish my work. So, I think we *agree* here. 14:59:50 <xiong> Nobody else says, Yes, I want to work with you. That's okay too. We're free. 15:01:44 <planetmaker> you constantly demand 'commitment' 15:02:10 <planetmaker> and you demand it without having produce any work except than illustrating an _idea_ 15:02:19 <planetmaker> (talking of bigsig) 15:02:40 <planetmaker> concerning the town names: where do you need commitment? It's finished. You just need to present your work to the community 15:02:45 <planetmaker> That's not my role 15:03:51 <planetmaker> I happily took your hand to the point where that grf is. And I'm severly disappointed that you fail to make your work available to the community 15:04:00 <planetmaker> More so as it means you wasted my time 15:04:22 <planetmaker> As I consider my task to help the community. But my help was wasted in that sense. So far 15:04:44 <xiong> planetmaker, You see that forum thread? Do you think no time, no work went into what I did? It's all shite? Fine; you're entitled. But if you don't respect that, then I don't have any reason to expect you'll respect anything else I do. 15:04:49 *** XeryusTC [~AndChat@188.88.207.141] has joined #openttd 15:05:20 *** avdg [~avdg@78-21-59-217.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 15:05:44 <planetmaker> I do think you put thought into that. But you fail to do follow-up work which can only be done by you 15:06:32 <planetmaker> that's got nothing to do with missing respect 15:06:40 <xiong> If you begin with the presumption that, after my having written those posts and committed in the strongest possible language to completing the graphics -- to working on the project to the limit of my ability -- that I will not do as I say, then you are deeply mistrustful person. 15:07:18 <xiong> I say, it is now time for at least one other person to join the project. You say, you don't want in. That's fine. Nobody is twisting your arm, dude. 15:07:21 <planetmaker> I've no trust issue 15:07:43 <planetmaker> And it's not yet time any ohter person can help you for that bigsig project 15:07:49 <xiong> I would retract the point if I were convinced otherwise. 15:08:00 <xiong> Man! 15:08:01 <planetmaker> Showing that you fail to publish the townnames kinda enforces my scepticism, 15:08:29 <planetmaker> xiong: I've participated in a number of newgrf projects. So I think I know how it can work 15:08:38 <xiong> With penntowns.grf, it is now your turn. It's your turn because I stopped. That's how it goes. 15:08:39 <planetmaker> And a pre-condition is: *some* sprites existing 15:08:59 <planetmaker> I've no stake in your townnames. You just made me author without asking for it 15:09:05 <xiong> If you don't pick up where I left off, then the project dies. That's how it goes. 15:09:16 <xiong> No, Sir. You wrote code into it. 15:09:32 <xiong> I copied it right out of the pastebin. I'm careful about this sort of thing. 15:09:51 <lugo> planetmaker, it's your fault helping him, don't you see? 15:10:03 <planetmaker> lugo: sadly, yes 15:10:19 <planetmaker> I fail to see why I need to publish his work. I won't do such baby-sitting. Simple 15:10:22 <xiong> Not fault, lugo. He helped; I appreciate it. 15:10:42 <planetmaker> xiong: exactly. helped. But it is your project and responsibility. Not mine 15:10:53 <XeryusTC> xiong: if it's your project then you're responsible for keeping it alive, not pm 15:10:55 <planetmaker> there's nothing left to do 15:11:05 <xiong> You don't consider that you have any need to involve yourself further. Okay. But then, I will assume that the next time I get stuck, you will also say, 'Not my problem'. That's all. 15:12:39 <xiong> I think I've explained myself in the same or different words at least 5 times now. Mine is an *opinion*; it's not a technical issue or matter of fact. I can't be argued out of it because it's an opinion, my viewpoint. 15:12:51 <XeryusTC> This is not primary school, if you get stuck you can ask for help but that is the end of the line whether you like it or not... 15:13:42 <xiong> Up to this point, I thought I might not have made myself clear. I think I've done this, now. I'm just not going to go on with it. I'm sorry. I'm not going to say anything more about this until someone says something new. 15:14:23 <__ln__> something new 15:14:28 <xiong> XeryusTC, I don't mean to be rude but you are going over old ground. If you want in on bigsig, great. Sign up. Otherwise, hey, let's be friends. 15:16:59 <Alberth> __ln__: do you still have the ", that" patch? Perhaps it can be split into 'trivially correct' and 'others'. 15:17:07 <planetmaker> xiong: telling us here that writing a posting along the lines of "here's my town name newgrf" being beyond your ability and you being stuck there... well. Interesting 15:17:24 <XeryusTC> Not a soul on the internet is interested in helping unless you have something to show, get used to it ;) 15:18:16 <planetmaker> it's incredible and implausible at best given your lengthy definition postings relating to bigsig. So the ball is all in your part of the playground 15:18:45 <planetmaker> besides: I never played on the townname game. It's not my work. 15:18:49 <planetmaker> It's not mine 15:18:52 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you just want to have the last word? Or do you understand me clearly? 15:19:00 <planetmaker> and meanwhile: please remove my authorship there 15:19:01 * Alberth gives planetmaker another union 15:19:59 <planetmaker> xiong: honestly I don't understand you. yes 15:20:49 <planetmaker> "another union"? 15:20:56 <xiong> Okay. Then I will explain, just one more time. I'll ask you to let me finish. There are 3 distinct issues related to your involvement with penntowns.grf. They are not all coupled. 15:21:11 <planetmaker> a) I'm not involved 15:21:18 <xiong> 1) Like it or not, you contributed actual code to the .grf. You can disclaim responsibility, of course. 15:21:22 <planetmaker> b) I merely provided some advice 15:21:25 <__ln__> Alberth: yes, here it is: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/comma-that-etc.diff 15:21:48 <planetmaker> xiong: I didn't. The other townname newgrfs are not written by me 15:21:59 <Alberth> planetmaker: oh, it's spelled "onion". sorry 15:22:10 <planetmaker> :-) 15:22:23 <xiong> You're not going to let me finish. You said you didn't understand. Should I have asked if you *wanted* me to explain? 15:22:28 <planetmaker> I'm currently rather cutting leeks 15:22:55 <Alberth> don't have those :( 15:23:12 * planetmaker does :-) They're part of French Cheese soup 15:23:48 <Alberth> yummy 15:23:56 <XeryusTC> xiong: you plagiarising someone's code is not contribution, even if the code was deliberately given to show how to do something, that is called an example 15:24:38 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 15:24:41 <xiong> XeryusTC, Do you really want to have a dog in this fight? 15:25:01 <Alberth> __ln__: is such a split of any use, or shall I simply go through all of them? 15:25:14 <xiong> I'm going to post to forum. I think it's silly but I'm just not going to say another word about this in chat. It's absurd -- it was absurd a week ago. 15:26:02 <Alberth> __ln__: (but after dinner :) ) 15:26:49 <__ln__> Alberth: I think the ", that" things are trivial.. so no need to split. the "etc" in the patch name suggests there's something else fixed too, but can't remember what it was. 15:30:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> please tell me the madness is over... 15:31:33 <__ln__> it's not as intense anymore 15:34:24 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 15:35:02 <lugo> pretty good timing Eddi|zuHause 15:35:52 <planetmaker> sorry folks :-( 15:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you should be! :p 15:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you know fully well how discussions with certain people turn out 15:36:48 <planetmaker> indeed I am. Local channel settings adjusted :-P 15:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> brb... kernel update 15:37:10 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:14 <planetmaker> but I do believe in the good of people 15:44:31 *** XeryusTC [~AndChat@188.88.207.141] has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:45:53 <Zuu> At least your discussion gave me something to read while assembling ikea furniture. :-) 15:47:19 <planetmaker> :-P 15:49:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73FF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:50:14 <Zuu> only two chairs, two sofas, and a bureau to go :-) 15:51:35 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 15:53:03 <Zuu> oh and a shoe stand :-) 15:53:23 <__ln__> Zuu: sounds like you should be watching Fight Club. 15:54:14 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 15:55:48 <Zuu> I'm actually going to away to a dinner tonight (good with food that you don't need to cook), but tomorrow it will be an assemble day. 16:08:09 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Is http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/accel.patch better than the current behavior? 16:10:16 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.64.199.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: can you post here? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50739 16:14:03 *** planetmaker [~chatzilla@dslb-092-076-123-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:17:11 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-113.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:46:37 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:46:40 <andythenorth_> hi 16:47:04 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth_ 16:47:11 <Terkhen> @commit 21058 16:47:12 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by terkhen :: r21058 /trunk/src (4 files) (2010-10-30 14:31:49 UTC) 16:47:13 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Feature [NewGRF]: Add CB36 support for road vehicle properties 0x13 (Power), 0x14 (Weight) and 0x18 (Tractive effort). 16:47:19 <andythenorth_> nice :) 16:47:35 <Terkhen> speed will take more time, as I'll have to unify a bit of code between trains and road vehicles first 16:47:36 <andythenorth_> I'll make proper use of that in HEQS 16:47:50 <andythenorth_> if you get speed done, I can release HEQS 0.9.0 :) 16:47:58 <andythenorth_> maybe we release them together :o 16:48:29 <andythenorth_> Alberth: sorry about that earlier :P 16:49:27 <Alberth> np, we were sort of finished, weren't we? 16:49:36 <Terkhen> great, that would be perfect for testing if I did any mistakes while implementing the callbacks 16:50:39 <andythenorth_> Alberth: how is the new TV? 16:50:50 <Alberth> it works :) 16:51:06 <Alberth> will try more tomorrow morning :) 16:52:34 <andythenorth_> Alberth: I wonder if there should just be 'groups'. All trains in them are just identical clones of each other 16:52:37 <andythenorth_> seems simplest 16:52:56 <Alberth> __ln__: src/station_cmd.cpp hunk @@ -2139,7 +2139,7 @@ the original seems better 16:52:58 <andythenorth_> everything identical - orders, consist, anything else that can be set 16:53:23 <andythenorth_> players don't get to move vehicles between groups. 16:53:31 <andythenorth_> they can add another train to the group, or trash them 16:54:14 <Alberth> that seems a simple enough approach to work. 16:54:35 <andythenorth_> if one train in the group is changed, all change to match it 16:55:16 <Alberth> that'll be chaos for the unsuspecting player :) 16:56:03 <__ln__> Alberth: i agree if the expression after comma is "that is" (i.e.). but is it. 16:56:09 <andythenorth_> well any system involving magic has the chaos problem 16:57:31 <Alberth> __ln__: I see it as a further explanation (badly worded, so I'll fix that) 16:57:40 *** XeryusTC [~AndChat@188.88.207.141] has joined #openttd 16:58:08 <andythenorth_> basically remove existing concept of individual vehicles - each with orders and own consist etc 16:58:15 <andythenorth_> replace with 'lines' or 'services' 16:58:31 <andythenorth_> you don't manage individual vehicles. You just + / - vehicles to the group 16:58:50 <andythenorth_> the window showing individual vehicles could be removed 16:59:04 <andythenorth_> could just show the groups - and the count of vehicles in each, and the total profit (loss) 17:00:54 <andythenorth_> no need for autoreplace either 17:01:19 <andythenorth_> might be better if vehicles could just change though - without going to depot 17:01:30 <andythenorth_> and ideally vehicles could be created / trashed without needing a depot 17:02:11 <Alberth> No can do. I will not introduce a new way of playing at the cost of discarding the current one. (Changes are discussable, throwing it all away not, imho, unless you have VERY convincing arguments.) 17:03:15 <Alberth> I think you are refering to a different tycoon game 17:03:31 <andythenorth_> it does work in the other game 17:03:43 <__ln__> andythenorth_: say "XML", it sounds very convincing 17:03:45 <andythenorth_> trains are created at the first station in their order list, and can be retired at any time 17:04:28 <andythenorth_> how about a scripting language for orders? 17:04:49 <andythenorth_> which could also manipulate all the mutable properties of a vehicle? 17:05:00 <andythenorth_> scripting language for vehicles /s 17:05:19 <andythenorth_> that way vehicles become autonomous agents on the network 17:05:37 <andythenorth_> :o what if the language allowed them to communicate :o 17:05:46 <Alberth> __ln__: /* The noise level is the noise from the airport and reduce it to account for the distance to the town center. */ <-- I just rewrote it :) 17:06:50 <Alberth> andythenorth_: scripting is a good way to get desyncs all over the place in a MP game. 17:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i really didn't like the railroad tycoon kind of train handling 17:07:19 <__ln__> Alberth: good. indeed my patch did neven attempt to rephrase things even when it could have been better. 17:07:21 <andythenorth_> what else could we do that's completely different? 17:08:11 <blathijs> We could make the game 3D rendered! 17:08:19 <andythenorth_> doesn't affect groups much :P 17:08:26 <andythenorth_> we could drive 1 train each 17:08:29 <andythenorth_> in multiplayer 17:08:45 <andythenorth_> why invent consists? 17:08:53 <michi_cc> andythenorth_: Can you test HEQS with http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/accel.patch ? The patch tries to make acceleration "slower", but it seems to me that HEQS generally has rather low power and TE values and I'm not totally sure how the vehicles should behave :) 17:09:04 <andythenorth_> what's good enough about current auto-replace? 17:09:39 <andythenorth_> or not good enough? 17:10:21 <Alberth> good: it replaces engines. not good enough: some players want to change more 17:10:44 <andythenorth_> such as....? 17:11:01 <andythenorth_> michi_cc: can't test tonight, but remind me tomorrow.... 17:11:22 <Alberth> add wagons is popular, I believe 17:12:43 <andythenorth_> so current auto-replace is simple 17:12:58 <andythenorth_> for x in list, transform x to y 17:13:12 <andythenorth_> (and shorten train if necessary) 17:13:58 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:14:20 <andythenorth_> matching to a consist is different... 17:17:19 <andythenorth_> but maybe not much more complicated 17:17:39 <andythenorth_> do consists preserve exact order, or just count of each vehicle? 17:17:46 <andythenorth_> vehicle / wagon type /s 17:18:50 <Alberth> I am not sure current autoreplace is so simple. The first time I tried it, it was quite tricky to get it working. 17:19:27 <Alberth> with consist-changing, hopefully you see more clearly what change you are defining 17:20:07 <Alberth> as for order preservation, what if it stores the change that you enter? 17:20:16 <andythenorth_> current autoreplace has usability problems granted 17:21:02 <andythenorth_> Alberth: seems to me one key issue is: - are there 'consists' as separate entities, or is just a group of trains trying to match each other? 17:23:14 <Alberth> don't understand that, but there is all kind of data seperate for each train (eg loaded cargo, age) how can that be one consist? 17:23:43 *** davis [~b@p5B28ADBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:24:49 <andythenorth_> ok, so - literally - is there some list in memory somewhere of a platonic consist that the train is trying to match to? 17:24:55 <andythenorth_> I think there has to be, I can't see a workable alternative 17:25:06 <Alberth> I think so too 17:25:16 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm134.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 17:25:52 <andythenorth_> so there has to be a way to manage consists 17:26:44 <Alberth> you need to be able to see which one there are, make new ones, and/or delete ones. 17:27:04 <andythenorth_> what if current groups window was adjusted 17:27:05 <Alberth> sort of replace window 17:27:09 <andythenorth_> groups become 'managed consists' 17:27:25 * Alberth would like that 17:27:28 <andythenorth_> moving a train into a group means it will try and change it's consist 17:27:31 <andythenorth_> :o 17:27:35 * andythenorth_ remembers railtypes 17:27:59 <Alberth> perhaps it is better if you don't :) 17:27:59 <andythenorth_> a train might not be able to match to a consist due to incompatible railtypes... 17:28:52 <andythenorth_> how does autoreplace handle that? 17:29:25 <Alberth> __ln__: http://codepad.org/wMjfQMNL 17:29:40 <Alberth> s/how // ? 17:30:32 <__ln__> looks good 17:31:32 <andythenorth_> Alberth: current groups really have nothing to do with *setting* orders, right? 17:32:17 <Alberth> not that I am aware of 17:32:27 <andythenorth_> good :) 17:32:41 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 17:32:42 <andythenorth_> perhaps this is a good place to start then 17:33:31 <andythenorth_> consists are managed by an updated groups / vehicle list window 17:33:54 <andythenorth_> forget my vehicle sets idea 17:34:26 <andythenorth_> vehicles can only have one consist (group) 17:34:51 <Alberth> unless they have multiple personalities :p 17:34:54 <andythenorth_> vehicles can be 'unmanaged' 17:35:07 <andythenorth_> otherwise the list gets way too long 17:35:42 *** Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cm-6-6a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:36:15 <andythenorth_> we preserve some kind of autoreplace for both consists and unmanaged vehicles 17:37:14 <andythenorth_> this is all decoupled entirely from orders 17:37:29 <andythenorth_> the only orders connection is current 'add vehicles with shared orders' option for a group 17:37:53 <Alberth> out of the order mess, but hooked firmly in the aut-re{new,place} mess :) 17:38:03 <andythenorth_> at least only one mess :P 17:38:14 <andythenorth_> I don't think orders are too broken 17:38:24 <andythenorth_> autoreplace is both awesome, and massively broken :P 17:39:11 * andythenorth_ drinks wine past its best 17:39:35 <Alberth> ah that explains the "we" part :p 17:40:20 <andythenorth_> ach, I could learn C++ 17:40:48 <andythenorth_> but only to change one line at a time 17:40:55 <andythenorth_> ask me to write a new function and I'm stuffed 17:41:01 <andythenorth_> too much stuff to know about 17:41:39 <Alberth> so instead you learned to speak cbs :) 17:42:16 <Alberth> hmm, why does the compiler always needs to re-compile every file? 17:42:28 <davis> 42 17:42:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21059 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt: 17:42:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:42:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 32 changes by gjannema 17:43:01 <Alberth> we can play the game in frisian shortly, lots of changes there 17:43:04 <Xaroth_> o_O 17:43:08 *** fjb is now known as Guest1260 17:43:10 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFF4A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:43:11 <Xaroth_> it's not even a proper language :/ 17:43:15 *** Xaroth_ is now known as Xaroth 17:43:38 <davis> while we're on it we can add bavarian 17:43:49 <Alberth> Xaroth: it is, acknowledged by the Dutch government 17:43:51 <Xaroth> and grolshish? 17:43:55 <davis> haha 17:43:56 <Xaroth> Alberth: they did? 17:44:02 <davis> well .. Alberth , dutch. 17:44:14 <Xaroth> damn and I thought our government was going down, but apparently we're already down 17:44:26 <davis> they also acknowledged the use of pot. 17:44:33 <Xaroth> that's a brilliant move 17:44:37 <davis> which is probably in some sort of connection 17:44:42 <Alberth> Xaroth: there are always deeper downs than you can imagine 17:45:01 <Xaroth> pot usage in countries where there are strict laws, like the US and the UK have a faaar higher drug use rate 17:45:08 <Xaroth> Alberth: true 17:45:46 <davis> Xaroth i agree , legalizing it in Holland isn't all bad imho 17:46:04 <Xaroth> last time i brought brits to amsterdam they spent half a day in coffee shops 17:46:13 <davis> haha 17:46:13 <Xaroth> and the dutchies were like 'right, you've seen the past 12, MOVE ALONG' 17:46:30 <Xaroth> they spent ~100 euros on weed 17:46:35 <Xaroth> smoked it up in ~2-3 days 17:46:49 <davis> well , not entirely sure about the prices over there 17:47:01 <Xaroth> 100 euros of weed is a LOT of weed 17:47:04 <davis> but if you try to buy weed over here , 100⬠isn't entirely much. 17:47:23 <davis> anyway , praise Dutchland 17:47:26 <Xaroth> aye 17:47:35 <davis> especialy Amsterdam , for having 4 times mc donalds in one street 17:47:36 <Xaroth> as finishing touch, god created the dutch 17:47:58 <Xaroth> I couldn't 'live' in amsterdam tho 17:48:00 <Xaroth> far too crowded 17:48:10 <davis> I like it , for a weekend every once in a while 17:48:17 <davis> maybe even a week. but not any longer than that 17:48:22 <Xaroth> weekend is fine 17:48:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21060 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 5 dirs): -Doc: Improved wording of comments (mostly by __ln__) 17:48:46 <Xaroth> mind, i live 10 miles south of amsterdam, where it's nice and quiet 17:48:51 <davis> ah 17:49:07 <Xaroth> where people bitch and moan when somebody is requesting to open a brothel or a coffee shop 17:49:11 <davis> I usualy stay at the sunpark in 17:49:17 <davis> I believe it's Zandvoort 17:49:23 <andythenorth_> Alberth: what would managing the consist mean for a ship or plane? 17:49:26 <davis> and from there it's just like 15 minutes by train to Amsterdam 17:50:04 <Xaroth> I'm on the other side of schiphol from zandvoort :P 17:50:10 <Alberth> pretty simple, you only have an engine :) 17:50:12 *** Guest1260 [~frank@p5DDFE9BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:50:14 <davis> haha 17:50:20 <Xaroth> 45 minutes by bus, and around 20 busses going there an hour 17:50:22 <andythenorth_> but it would set refits 17:50:22 <Xaroth> love it 17:50:46 <davis> to admit , your "french"/ dutch fries 17:50:50 <davis> are pretty much amazing. 17:50:58 <Xaroth> heh 17:51:08 <davis> haha. 17:51:11 <andythenorth_> Alberth: as I'm seeing this...you wouldn't be able to set an order 'goto depot and switch to consist xyz' 17:51:25 <andythenorth_> that was previously an idea 17:51:32 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:18 <Alberth> you seem to be many steps further than me 17:53:14 <andythenorth_> I thought about it a bit previously :) 17:53:18 <andythenorth_> with help from others! 17:54:02 <andythenorth_> to be able to have orders changing consist, it needs to consist != group 17:54:12 <andythenorth_> but consist == group is way easier and way closer to current 17:59:48 *** XeryusTC [~AndChat@188.88.207.141] has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:03:51 <Alberth> good night 18:06:33 <davis> http://www.viddler.com/explore/failblog/videos/980/ 18:06:34 <davis> ohdear. 18:06:41 <davis> Semafor FAIL 18:08:40 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-66-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 18:09:10 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 18:13:54 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 18:16:31 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-66-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 18:16:34 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 18:19:27 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC55D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:21:33 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5E1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:21:51 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 18:24:46 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 18:28:25 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 18:29:50 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 18:31:40 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f8e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:39:22 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:40:06 *** Vitus [~chatzilla@138.194.wms.cz] has joined #openttd 18:44:18 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 18:55:32 *** davis [~b@p5B28ADBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:50 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:59:16 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 19:02:52 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-113.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:03:03 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:34 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:04:42 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 19:05:48 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:05:59 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 19:06:03 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:06:50 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.66.110.255] has joined #openttd 19:08:44 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 19:14:37 *** saronpasu [~saronpasu@catv075-208.lan-do.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:18:59 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-108.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:33:02 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-108.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 19:39:30 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 19:40:45 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-113.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:50:49 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 19:54:09 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9730.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 19:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling it's pretty obvious who "Fred" is :p 19:58:07 *** enr1x [~kiike@188.Red-79-150-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:03:51 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, where do you see a Fred? 20:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> here, there, everywhere. 20:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50781 20:05:14 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-108.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:05:23 <dihedral> lol 20:05:32 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:08:43 <dihedral> why is this guy all words? 20:09:20 <dihedral> and what does the story have to do with it? 20:09:35 <dihedral> and what does one project have to to in another projects thread if it is totally unrelated? 20:11:51 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 20:11:51 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:06 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-67-91.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 20:21:47 <dihedral> i pitty the students ^^ 20:22:24 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.29.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:10 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:33:29 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 20:46:35 *** saronpasu [~saronpasu@catv075-208.lan-do.ne.jp] has joined #openttd 20:51:45 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-67-91.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 21:18:22 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 21:19:00 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:13 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 21:36:04 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 21:42:08 *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@225.80-202-65.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 21:44:29 *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@225.80-202-65.nextgentel.com] has quit [] 21:49:57 *** saronpasu [~saronpasu@catv075-208.lan-do.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:52:03 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:58:40 *** Tennel [~Tennel@p4FED15FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:59:57 *** avdg [~avdg@78-21-59-217.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:00:06 *** avdg [~avdg@78-21-59-217.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 22:06:25 <Terkhen> good night 22:06:42 <SmatZ> good night Terkhen 22:06:50 <avdg> gn 22:21:43 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3aaf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 22:30:30 *** Tennel [~Tennel@p4FED15FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:34:50 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3aaf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:07 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:38:48 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 22:42:49 *** Zuu [~Zuu@2.66.110.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:48:48 *** SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:16 *** saronpasu [~saronpasu@catv075-208.lan-do.ne.jp] has joined #openttd 22:55:07 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-121-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:36 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9730.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:59:44 *** davis [~b@p5B28ADBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:59:57 *** Vitus [~chatzilla@138.194.wms.cz] has quit [Quit: Good bye] 23:02:00 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-113.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:04 *** avdg [~avdg@78-21-59-217.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:06 *** davis [~b@p5B28ADBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:24:23 *** davis [~b@p5B28AB97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:39:36 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C250.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:27 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 23:44:27 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [] 23:44:36 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 23:51:37 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.29.246] has joined #openttd 23:58:15 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:58:36 *** saronpasu [~saronpasu@catv075-208.lan-do.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]