Log for #openttd on 1st November 2010:
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03:33:50  <Sevalecan> heh... I'm trying to grow this city past 350k people.. (it's on a tropical map, with it's center tile being desert), and it seemed to refuse to grow... but I stopped delivering food/water and it grew 35k :P
03:34:08  <Sevalecan> hmm, maybe it stagnated now.
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07:20:16  <planetmaker> good morning
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07:44:17  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:48:27  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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08:04:27  <Qantourisc> Is it normal for steam trains to brake down once a month ?
08:05:01  <__ln__> No, but break down yes.
08:05:38  <Qantourisc> relialbilty 22%
08:06:22  <Qantourisc> and relialibty 0% O.o
08:06:27  * Qantourisc must be doing something wrong
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08:09:00  <Qantourisc> hmmm service is an order ?
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08:14:00  <Qantourisc> lol there is an ignore signs button :)
08:14:07  <Qantourisc> better use it carefully :)
08:14:54  <planetmaker> signs are harmless. Signals might be worse ;-)
08:15:19  <Qantourisc> :)
08:15:33  <Qantourisc> i consider a malfunction brake also a "sign" :)
08:16:14  <planetmaker> :-)
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08:16:46  <Qantourisc> so why is the other train still in goof shape ?
08:17:04  <Qantourisc> because it has less distance to travel, weigth to pull and less active ?
08:17:39  <Qantourisc> hmmm
08:17:44  <planetmaker> 0% reliability can mean that it breaks down virtually every tile...
08:17:45  <Qantourisc> this one goes for service automaticly ?
08:18:34  <Qantourisc> so a train on a single track goes for maintance automaticly, but a multi-used track-trains dont ?
08:19:29  <planetmaker> maybe the train is too old, beyond its lifetime?
08:19:36  <Qantourisc> no
08:19:39  <Qantourisc> it's brand new :)
08:19:49  <planetmaker> bad manufacturer :-P
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08:21:10  <Qantourisc> so when do i need to manually setup a service run and when not ?
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08:24:36  <xiong> Hi all.
08:24:48  <Qantourisc> Hi one.
08:25:40  <planetmaker> Qantourisc: manual servicing helps for principally unreliable vehicles. Or when you only have infrequent depots around, so that automatic servicing fails
08:26:05  <Qantourisc> i seee
08:26:06  <Qantourisc> thanks
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08:26:54  <planetmaker> also: as soon as a vehicle has one service order, it won't do automatic servicing anymore
08:27:05  <planetmaker> but you thus keep better control where and when it services
08:27:11  <Qantourisc> 6 wagons in the start of the game might have been a bit of overoptimistic move :)
08:28:31  <planetmaker> depends on many things
08:28:32  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: what is "infrequent"
08:28:35  <Qantourisc> not on it's path ?
08:28:42  <planetmaker> for example, yes
08:28:54  <Qantourisc> that explains it then :)
08:29:07  <Qantourisc> cause he had to reserve another trackif it wanted service :)
08:29:09  <planetmaker> it won't go a large detour just to reach a depot automatically
08:29:14  <planetmaker> that it won't do
08:29:27  <planetmaker> reversing is considered 'end of track' for the path finder
08:31:18  <Qantourisc> PS why would one want to use days for service interval ?
08:32:33  <planetmaker> why not?
08:32:44  <planetmaker> easier to see. What is a tick? Do you know?
08:33:21  <Qantourisc> what is a tick ?
08:33:27  <Qantourisc> you confused me just now
08:34:48  <planetmaker> don't worry about that then :-) It's an internal time unit
08:35:05  <Qantourisc> the % is an interval time unit ?
08:35:18  <Qantourisc> and not a "when train reliablity is less then" .
08:35:19  <Qantourisc> ?
08:35:44  <planetmaker> Qantourisc: nope it's not. I remembered wrongly
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08:38:48  <Qantourisc> whoot i got money ! (to spend and no loan)
08:42:00  <xiong> I have noted some examples and put depots immediately previous to station platforms. It didn't look right at first but I see now, it works.
08:43:34  <Qantourisc> where do grates of goods go ? :)
08:43:43  <xiong> With path signals, it's possible to put a depot at the corner of a station and run track at right angles to the usual flow; and trains out of depot will be able to choose any station track. It looks weird but it works.
08:43:44  <dihedral> cities
08:44:34  <xiong> Qantourisc, I'm new around here and I'll be happy to answer some questions for you, if I can. But I suggest that you may want to study-up a bit. This is a highly detailed game and the documentation is quite detailed.
08:45:11  <Qantourisc> xiong: yea
08:45:33  <xiong> Look around at your stations. You're looking for a station that says it 'Accepts' Goods. Towns and Cities may do this. Depending on your industry set, some industries may also accept goods.
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08:45:55  <Qantourisc> ok
08:46:06  * Qantourisc weird i expected this to work
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08:47:00  <xiong> If you're very new to OpenTTD, may I suggest that you not worry too much about which cargoes are accepted where. Run passengers and maybe mail around from town to town. You will have enough to learn with only that.
08:47:23  <Qantourisc> :)
08:47:36  <Qantourisc> don't worry :)
08:47:43  <Qantourisc> i learned blender in a week :D
08:48:00  <xiong> A further simplification might be to start with bus service in 1950. Roads require no signals.
08:48:21  <Qantourisc> that's already up and running :)
08:48:59  <xiong> I'll believe you're a smart guy. But I'm a smart guy, too. I'm still learning, hard, after about 3 weeks.
08:49:13  <Qantourisc> about how to use singals ?
08:49:16  <Qantourisc> yes i can believe that :)
08:49:23  <Qantourisc> that will take some time
08:49:25  <xiong> About the game in general.
08:49:29  <Qantourisc> ow nice
08:50:20  <xiong> I will pass on one signals tip, took me awhile to dummy out: There are 6 types of signals but, very generally, they fall into two groups. Players generally stick to one group or the other for an entire map, although they can be mixed.
08:51:56  <xiong> The first group is the block group, consisting of normal and 3 types of presignal (entry, exit, combo). The second group is the path signal, consisting of standard path and one-way path. They're not really related to one another and work in rather different ways.
08:53:10  <xiong> Also important to understand that every depot incorporates an implicit signal, which can behave as one of the other types via a sort of voodoo magic -- it can act as a normal block, entry, or path.
08:53:28  <Qantourisc> i notised
08:54:12  <xiong> On my current layout, every signal is a one-way path. This may be excessively rigid but it's predictable in operation and easy to set up.
08:55:36  <xiong> Path signals allow you to lay down disorganized masses of crossovers and slips without really thinking about what you're doing. If you signal just before the mess and N tiles after it, things usually work out. (Where N is the length of your longest train.)
08:56:15  <xiong> Block signals require much more planning and also some straight track in the middle of a tangle -- they require more signals.
08:56:16  <Qantourisc> hehe
08:56:27  <Qantourisc> i'm going to expand this single track until it brakes down
08:56:33  <Qantourisc> and then see why it broke down to learn
08:56:42  <Qantourisc> and i'm sure it will fall appart :)
08:56:50  <xiong> Expand? Do you mean extend?
08:57:10  <Qantourisc> duno
08:57:21  <Qantourisc> gonne keep adding more trains to this track
08:57:22  <xiong> Make it longer...
08:57:46  <Qantourisc> they already seem to be running around in circles :)
08:58:05  <xiong> Oh, increase traffic. If you have a properly signaled single track, with traffic in only one direction, it can bear a fairly high amount of traffic.
08:58:26  <Qantourisc> using the block group :)
08:58:27  <xiong> What will bite you is breakdowns.
08:58:56  <Qantourisc> that what i intend to find out
08:59:15  <Qantourisc> ok first bug
08:59:20  <xiong> Breakdowns are especially bad around stations and junctions. Pretty much the largest part of track planning is allowing for breakdowns.
08:59:25  <Qantourisc> i had a train turn around because it encouternd another train
08:59:42  <xiong> 'encountered'? In what way?
09:00:02  <Qantourisc> well one wanted to use a track where another train was already on
09:00:58  <Qantourisc> ps (this i did look up) what is the best way to destroy singals ?
09:01:23  <xiong> Trains that approach a block signal indicating 'stop' will generally turn around. Trains that approach a path signal indicating 'stop' will generally wait for it to clear.
09:01:36  <xiong> Remove signals with the Bulldozer tool.
09:01:54  <Qantourisc> hero
09:05:28  <xiong>
09:05:48  <Qantourisc> i looked for remove singal :/
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09:08:09  <planetmaker> hm, in order to get the random seed from an existing savegame... is 'generation_seed' the correct value to check on the console?
09:08:10  <xiong> Use the bulldozer from the main railway toolbar. Signals don't have their own. Also, Ctrl-click on a signal has a different meaning.
09:13:10  <dihedral> Rubidium, would it be an idea to have a console commands for servers to list and kick admin connections? (similar to 'clients' and 'kick')
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09:20:14  <Rubidium> dihedral: that's probably a good idea
09:20:53  <dihedral> ok, i'll do that :-)
09:21:34  <dihedral> is it possible that tasks in FS be assigned to me?
09:22:01  <Rubidium> should be possible
09:23:30  <dihedral> then perhaps i'll make use of that so i do not forget things
09:23:36  <dihedral> i am only here for another 1 1/2 weeks
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09:28:28  <xiong> I've not seen any discussion of farmland. Is the output of a farm dependent in any way on the amount of land under cultivation? One might think so.
09:29:12  <xiong> I'm using FIRS but I'll be interested to hear about the default farm, too.
09:30:52  <xiong> The window for a FIRS Mixed Farm, e.g., just says that delivering Farm Supplies 'may' increase production. It says nothing about using up the land its farming on road, rail, or town buildings.
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09:31:13  <xiong> s/its/it's/
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09:50:32  <xiong> ?
09:50:59  <xiong> I'm not sure it makes sense for the station bulldozer to show catchment.
09:53:13  <fjb> Moin
09:54:05  <Rubidium> moi
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10:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> miau
10:04:36  <dihedral> woof
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10:20:27  <xiong> Er. I was allowed to test a new vehicle; I accepted. It came online with 51% reliability. That's okay; it's untested yet. I autoreplaced all my engines with it. Now, a year later, it's on general offer and reliability is still 51%.
10:23:04  <xiong> This is so bad that it self-accelerates: An engine due for service breaks down enroute, which further delays servicing, which causes it to break down again even more quickly, rinse, repeat.
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10:30:44  <planetmaker> @commit r21004
10:30:44  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Invalid arguments for _commit.
10:30:51  <planetmaker> @openttd commit r21004
10:30:51  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Invalid arguments for _commit.
10:30:55  <planetmaker> oh well
10:31:08  <__ln__> @commit 21004
10:31:08  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Commit by rubidium :: r21004 /trunk/src (4 files in 3 dirs) (2010-10-21 20:12:48 UTC)
10:31:09  <DorpsGek> __ln__: -Fix [FS#3746]: chat/console messages got sometimes messed up due to LTR names in RTL translations and vice-versa
10:31:39  <planetmaker> :-)
10:31:56  <planetmaker> it's a lazyness support anyway
10:33:24  * peter1138 supports lazyness
10:33:35  <peter1138> Or would do, if I wasn't so lazy.
10:33:42  <peter1138> So planetmaker, you're a dev now?
10:34:25  <peter1138> Aren't you on OSX? :p
10:34:34  <peter1138> Or was that me imagining things...
10:35:27  <dihedral> Rubidium, does this LRM stuff have to be printed on the dedicated server console?
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10:36:05  <dihedral> regarding r21004
10:37:12  <Rubidium> dihedral: if you want it to be printed correctly on the stdout console it has to be there
10:37:38  <dihedral> ok :-)
10:38:11  <Rubidium> though it'll only be put to the console when you've got ICU compiled in
10:38:51  <dihedral> hehe
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10:45:45  <xiong> Is this a permanent screwup? Should I have bought prototype vehicles outright, rather than with autoreplace? Do I have any alternative to autoreplacing back to the old, more reliable engine?
10:47:15  <planetmaker> [11:34]	<peter1138>	Aren't you on OSX? :p <-- psst. Don't tell anyone ;-)
10:47:40  <peter1138> Well you can always just disable breakdowns :)
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10:48:59  <peter1138> planetmaker, can you make your IRC client not paste tabs?
10:49:31  <planetmaker> Dunno, I never looked. But I have my doubts
10:49:52  <planetmaker> chatzilla is very simple ;-)
10:51:02  <planetmaker> but where are tabs a problem?
10:53:55  <peter1138>
10:54:50  <planetmaker> looks like insufficient support on your client's side to me ;-)
10:55:43  <xiong> peter1138, I'd like to try to work through this. A day or two ago, someone said that if I tested a new vehicle, then when it was generally introduced, I would find it had greater reliability -- not only greater than when it was in prototype but greater than it would otherwise have been. This doesn't seem to be my experience. I think I've done something wrong and I don't know what.
10:56:19  <planetmaker> though I wonder why it replaces them by "I"
10:56:32  <peter1138> Tab is ^I
10:56:39  <planetmaker> aye :-)
10:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it's worse here. ^I gets interpreted as italic.
10:57:12  <planetmaker> nice
10:59:11  <SpComb> ^I is useful if you're using a keyboard without a tab key
10:59:22  <peter1138> xiong, as far as I know, engine preview has no effect on reliability...
11:01:44  <xiong> peter1138, Then what possible good is it? The thing comes in with low reliability -- very low. There's no immediate payoff for putting it online, where it's only going to foul up things. I might, barely, could see that I'd try, say, the first possible airplane -- better a bad airplane than none. But otherwise? I'm not asking rhetorically; I'd like to know why anyone would want such a thing.
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11:03:03  <xiong> Anyway, I played a game before with this particular engine. It's the 2-6-0 Mogul from NARS. I don't recall it being this crappy. In fact, for decades I standardized on it.
11:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i dare you not answer that!!
11:03:10  <peter1138> xiong, you get it earlier, that's the advantage.
11:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no possible good thing to come out of this discussion
11:04:01  <peter1138> xiong, and reliability is sort of randomized, so it can be different.
11:04:20  <xiong> !
11:04:39  <xiong> Searching for docs on reliability... isn't working well.
11:05:41  <dihedral> that is because the search function does not like entire essays
11:11:09  <xiong> The last game I played, Mogul max reliability was 91%. I don't think I took it on prototype. This game, prototype was 51% and after public rollout, 53%. That's the same for a brand-new Mogul and for one of the prototypes, stopped in depot (and therefore fully serviced).
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11:12:16  <xiong> I asked others with no answer to this: Is there a way to suppress these prototype offers? I can see no use for them and they're distracting.
11:12:39  <xiong> I can see no point to putting junk online a year early.
11:13:01  <xiong> ... and if it's good when rolled out, I can wait.
11:14:07  <peter1138> You don't understand.
11:14:20  <peter1138> If it's junk a year early, it would've been junk a year later.
11:14:57  <peter1138> (Actually it's random, due to the way seeds work, but even so...)
11:15:48  <xiong> peter1138, It's junkier a year earlier.
11:16:25  <xiong> This whole thing mystifies me. There must be some base assumption I just don't get.
11:17:20  <xiong> Why would I want a less-reliable vehicle? I invariably choose the most reliable vehicle on offer, unless some other attribute is a complete deal-killer.
11:18:09  <xiong> I figure that breakdowns are *the* main obstacle to a smooth-running service. That's almost a truism.
11:18:37  <peter1138> xiong, there is no code that says an engine is less reliable because it's a prototype. (AFAICS)
11:19:04  <xiong> !
11:20:36  <SpComb> xiong: because 90% of people play without breakdowns
11:20:42  <xiong> Dunno about code. This, though: ( "Vehicles are occasionally offered to your company as an exclusive prototype; these prototype versions will have lower reliability than the final release a year later." That line is almost the only thing I have been able to find out about prototypes at all.
11:21:25  <xiong> In the current case, I had 51% before rollout, 53% after. Not a significant difference but a difference.
11:21:51  <peter1138> Hmm, actually reliability is determined at the start of the game.
11:21:58  <xiong> SpComb, That astonishes me. I already feel as if I'm giving myself an easy time of it. No breakdowns mean no challenge at all.
11:22:44  <SpComb> xiong: depends on what you view as the challenge
11:22:58  <SpComb> xiong: generally, there's very little monetary challenge or such
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11:23:11  <SpComb> after 5-6 years you have more money than you know what to do with it
11:23:12  <xiong> As it is -- and I'm very new to this, this is my 3rd 'real' game -- I've got nearly  M in 1870; in 20 years. Cash certainly isn't a constraint.
11:24:11  <xiong> If you never have breakdowns, you don't need to allow for them. You can have huge throughput without any real effort. What *is* the challenge?
11:24:47  <xiong> Never mind, that is an open-ended question. People play these sorts of games for all kinds of reasons.
11:24:54  <SpComb> there's the creative challenge
11:25:09  <peter1138> xiong, some people like to just build a train set :D
11:25:36  <SpComb> as well as the efficiency one
11:25:43  <xiong> Come back to the prototype thing. If there is no penalty attached to taking the prototype, then in what way is it a prototype? Why not just call "the offer of prototype" == "public rollout"?
11:25:57  <SpComb> but the economic mechanics are kind of broken, and always have been in that regard
11:26:04  <SpComb> you can try and tweak them with various GRFs or such
11:26:32  <SpComb> xiong: if you take the prototype, but don't test the prototype, you're less likely to get more prototype offers
11:27:06  <SpComb> xiong: so you're supposed to accept the prototype, and then use that vehicle during the first year
11:27:44  <xiong> I heard that before. It's something of a solution to my main question, which is "How do I get rid of the offers?"
11:28:14  <SpComb> well, I generally find the prototype offers for vehicles that I would use useful
11:28:21  <xiong> But the same person who mentioned it also gave me all the story about improved reliability after rollout *if* I bought prototype and used it.
11:28:27  <SpComb> but disregard those that I don't care about
11:28:38  <SpComb> xiong: that I don't know about
11:28:55  <xiong> I can wait a year. It's not as though I'm running out of time!
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11:29:09  <Mortomes|Work> xiong: I usually like to build huge networks with a high volume of traffic, kind of like openttdcoop. That's what I enjoy most. Breakdowns are just an annoyance with that kind of playstyle :P
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11:29:24  <xiong> This just doesn't seem to be a well-thought-out feature.
11:29:32  <peter1138> xiong, you still don't get it :)
11:29:47  <xiong> Nope. I'm still missing that basic assumption.
11:30:24  <peter1138> if you don't accept the preview, the reliability curve won't start early
11:30:25  <xiong> This may be the key to my understanding the existing community, so I'd like to figure it out.
11:30:46  <peter1138> therefore, it'll have the same reliability a year later as it would've had if you'd accepted the preview
11:30:55  <xiong> That's what I thought.
11:31:14  <peter1138> the "better" reliability after a year comes to *other* players, who can then get the vehicle with a years worth of reliability changes
11:31:42  <peter1138> in general they start off low, increase for a bit, then slowly drop off
11:31:48  <xiong> So, tell me again: Why, since I *did* accept the Mogul prototype, and *did* autoreplace all my engines into it, did the eventual rollout *not* come with improved reliability?
11:32:11  <peter1138> heh
11:32:15  <peter1138> still not getting it :)
11:32:49  <xiong> I typed my line while you mentioned 'other players'. That may be the key.
11:33:15  <xiong> You're saying that prototype acceptance is an altruistic act in a cooperative, multiplayer game?
11:33:32  <peter1138> no, you get the vehicle early
11:33:36  <peter1138> it might start off at 85%
11:33:38  <xiong> By putting the vehicle into service earlier, it becomes more reliable, slowly, but faster.
11:34:38  <xiong> I think you are saying something that has nothing to do with reliability. Let's ignore that a moment. Is there any issue whatever, having nothing to do with reliability, that might make me want to get a vehicle a year early?
11:35:17  <peter1138> yes, you get it a year earlier before anyone else
11:36:10  <xiong> I'm playing solo.
11:36:26  <peter1138> you get it a year earlier than you would've done? :p
11:37:17  <xiong> I can get *all* the vehicles a year earlier, just by starting in 1851 instead of 1850. For that matter, I can start in 2050 and go straight to maglev.
11:39:25  <xiong> I think we'd better move on. I'm not going to get this. It's like tailfins, or high heels, or for that matter, club crawling. There are some activities that lots of people really enjoy that make absolutely no sense to me.
11:40:17  <peter1138> have you disabled all opponents?
11:40:20  <xiong> *Is* there any way to disable all the prototype offers outright? Can it currently be done?
11:40:23  <peter1138> AIs and what like
11:40:29  <xiong> 'Opponents'?
11:40:33  <xiong> I'm playing solo.
11:40:36  <peter1138> right
11:40:39  <peter1138> that's non-standard see.
11:40:42  <peter1138> sandbox style
11:40:50  <xiong> It's just me. I have no AIs on the map.
11:41:28  <xiong> My experience with AIs, in general, is that they crap things up. I may try playing with a few later, after I have the game figured out better.
11:41:59  <xiong> But then the game would boil down to "destroy the AIs, buy them out, level everything they built, and do over". Kinda routine.
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11:42:29  <xiong> Either it will be easy or next to impossible, depending on how much better I can make money than they can.
11:43:34  <xiong> I take it, the answer is 'no'.
11:46:22  <Qantourisc> PS the icons are rather small at 1680x1050 ... any tips there ?
11:46:51  <planetmaker> play full-screen at reduced resolution
11:47:14  <Qantourisc> hmmm
11:47:20  <Qantourisc> i quess :)
11:47:30  <planetmaker> you could search to forum for bigGUI or so. It's a newgrf
11:47:41  <planetmaker> by Zephyris
11:47:50  <planetmaker> it's quite good, but not yet finished
11:48:15  <planetmaker> so expect some visual bugs in places as the GUI might not support it everywhere
11:48:21  <Qantourisc> :)
11:48:34  <Qantourisc> i'll peel my eyes for the time beeing
11:48:56  <planetmaker> give that newgrf a try :-) Feedback surely will be appreciated
11:49:03  * Qantourisc looks
11:51:20  <planetmaker>
11:59:03  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: it's good but euuu
11:59:13  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:59:24  <Qantourisc> some peaple download this because there screen is big, and thus can fit the complete bar on the screen :)
11:59:42  <Qantourisc> so the "switch" button on the end is weir :p
12:01:43  <Belugas> hello
12:01:56  <peter1138> hi
12:03:01  <Rubidium> hello Belugas, I wouldn't have expected you two hours earlier than normal :)
12:03:34  * Belugas nods
12:03:47  <Belugas> while sitting quietly inb his living room
12:04:12  * Belugas will stay at home today
12:04:18  <Belugas> HOME
12:04:21  <Belugas> NO WORK
12:04:27  <Belugas> ho my god...
12:04:34  <Belugas> i wonder what i'll do with my time...
12:04:36  <Rubidium> oh, the wife's gone as well? :)
12:04:42  <Belugas> naaa....
12:04:50  <Belugas> that;s the bad part :S
12:05:00  <Belugas> she'll find stuff for me to do
12:05:11  <Belugas> altough i battled hard thuis weekend to finish my stuff
12:05:17  <Belugas> fact, i did...
12:05:34  <Rubidium> toyland time! :)
12:05:44  <Belugas> :D
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12:06:12  <Belugas> i see lego, i see at ;least a commit for Eddi|zuHause, i see some MUSIC
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12:06:30  <Belugas> something like that :)
12:06:33  <Belugas> wb, Eddi|zuHause
12:07:10  * Belugas goes away from keyboard, see you
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12:11:12  <xiong> Qantourisc, Would you mind /query-ing me?
12:12:34  <dihedral> oh dear lord
12:13:03  <Rubidium> aro or mwa?
12:13:27  <planetmaker> hm, no, ohters
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13:45:11  <Qantourisc> xiong i would
13:45:15  <Qantourisc> but i was lying down
13:45:19  <Qantourisc> and your age gone now
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14:18:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21070 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_listen.h: -Fix: file not being picked up by doxygen
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14:27:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21071 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_listen.h: -Fix: ofcourse the svn properties weren't set properly either :(
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14:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> bad day? ;)
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15:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 164869/25
15:29:27  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 6594.76
15:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 164869/25/60
15:34:08  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 109.912666667
15:47:28  <Qantourisc> hmmm trains seem to "run around"
15:47:32  <Qantourisc> when trying to fix problems :/
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16:50:39  <Belugas> miam... double coffee... Toffee and Kaluha... 16 onces of pure joy :D
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18:26:40  <Qantourisc> how to deal with a crashed train ?
18:26:50  <glx> wiat
18:26:54  <glx> *wait
18:27:15  <Qantourisc> a indeed :)
18:29:05  <Ammler> maybe clone it in the meantime
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18:42:22  * planetmaker waits for the move "assault of the clone trains" ;-)
18:45:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21072 /trunk/src/lang/traditional_chinese.txt:
18:45:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 2 changes by josesun
18:45:27  <kenneth> can anyone give me a quick hand with a script ?
18:45:45  *** Zuu [~Zuu@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:45:49  <kenneth> can anyone give me a hand with a cron/script ?
18:45:51  <planetmaker> that greatly depends...
18:45:57  * planetmaker points at the topic
18:46:00  <kenneth> sorry for double type
18:46:04  <planetmaker> @topic get -2
18:46:04  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
18:46:38  <kenneth> well, my server starts in a shell script i wrote, simple one /usr/games/openttd -D blah blah
18:46:43  <planetmaker> rather be sorry for the needless meta-question ;-)
18:47:01  <kenneth> how can i set it to restart at the same time daily ?
18:47:05  <kenneth> i know cron can start my script
18:47:10  <Zuu_> Reading product instructions/warnings are always fun. My new hiking gas stove says that you should avoid to change or connect gas cartridge when you are in crowds of people. :-) Also, in the beginning it says that you must only use it outdoor as it consumes oxygen. Later it says that when you change gas cartridge, you should go outdoor. ^^
18:47:16  <kenneth> but can cron, execute, terminate, then re exexcute ?
18:47:38  <planetmaker> cron only executes at pre-defined times. Or time intervals
18:47:56  <kenneth> right
18:47:58  <kenneth> so my script is
18:47:59  <Rubidium> killall openttd should do the trick
18:48:03  <kenneth> ~/start
18:48:10  <kenneth> ah ok
18:48:10  <planetmaker> if you need re-start, then you'd need to write a script which checks a PID and then starts conditionally
18:48:23  <Rubidium> ofcourse storing the pid and killing that specific pid is a better solution
18:48:24  <kenneth> hell, my linux knowledge isnt that in depth
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18:49:11  <kenneth> but the PID will change every time
18:49:15  <kenneth> if i run it in a screen
18:49:20  <Rubidium> maybe leech the init script from gentoo and use it to restart OpenTTD
18:49:21  <kenneth> can i set the script to kill the screen
18:49:28  <kenneth> i run on debian
18:49:34  <kenneth> how do you guys restart at a set time
18:49:39  <planetmaker> why do you want to kill the screen?
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18:49:54  <kenneth> im just clutching at straws
18:49:54  <planetmaker> you can basically kill anything, though
18:50:06  <kenneth> i need to kill and restart at 18:00
18:50:26  <kenneth> got it
18:50:30  <kenneth> killall openttd
18:50:31  <kenneth> openttd -D
18:50:34  <planetmaker> 30 5 * * * /home/whoever/scripts/
18:50:43  <planetmaker> ^ that line executes daily at 5:30 am
18:51:17  <planetmaker> crontab -? or man crontab are also your friend
18:51:32  <Qantourisc> Is it me or, is setting up a good transport in the beginning of the game hard ?
18:51:33  <planetmaker> but you'll then need to adopt your script to your needs
18:51:40  <planetmaker> Qantourisc, it's you :-P
18:51:45  <Qantourisc> I.e: it's hard to get the required supplies ?
18:51:53  <planetmaker> supplies?
18:51:58  <Qantourisc> iron, food ?
18:52:06  <planetmaker> start with coal or oil
18:52:16  <Qantourisc> i notised :)
18:52:20  <planetmaker> build rather one long route than more short ones
18:52:38  <planetmaker> use full load and intermediately long trains. That over time increases industry production
18:52:56  <planetmaker> (train length 3-7 tiles or so)
18:53:25  <Zuu> Even if you run on debian, you could have use of the gentoo init script to figure out how they have implemented it.
18:53:41  <planetmaker> and crontab works the same everywhere
18:53:58  <planetmaker> just crontab -e might open an editor which is not so convenient for the inaugurated ;-)
18:55:23  <frosch123> burn, vi, burn!
18:55:45  * planetmaker puts some asbestos around vi ;-)
18:57:25  <planetmaker> but you have easy talking, sitting in your pont ;-)
18:57:28  <frosch123> is that a hint that vi is toxic waste, and burning it is not recommended?
18:57:29  <kenneth> nano is the future
18:57:40  <planetmaker> :-D
18:57:40  <kenneth> i loved pico, now i love nano
18:58:06  <kenneth> crontab -e, opens nano, crack in there, "killall openttd" "openttd -D", and that should really restart it
18:58:29  <planetmaker> mind that crontab knows not paths and search paths
18:59:03  <planetmaker> also you want to do both actions rather from a single script which you call from crontab
18:59:04  <perk11> gedit is future
18:59:10  <perk11> not nano
18:59:20  <planetmaker> emacs of course. What OS do you use? :-P
18:59:30  <frosch123> emacs is a great os, it just lacks a proper editor
18:59:32  <perk11> win7 and ubuntu
18:59:49  <planetmaker> hehe :-) one got the joke, one didn't ;-)
18:59:55  <frosch123> perk11: sorry, but you failed to hide in a group of nerds
19:00:01  <perk11> oh
19:00:41  <perk11> how do you install emacs?
19:01:24  <frosch123> you paint a pentagram on the floor, and say "ommmmmmmmmmmm"
19:01:30  <perk11> oh
19:01:35  <perk11> I should try it
19:01:52  <frosch123> well, i guess you ask your packet manager, and install either emacs or xemacs
19:02:05  <frosch123> note, that xemacs has nothing to do with X
19:02:17  <frosch123> they are just different flavours
19:02:39  <perk11> it means it's not OS
19:02:55  <perk11> you must have a package manager
19:03:17  <perk11> And does it work without a pentagram?
19:03:35  <frosch123> its was originally a texteditor which got script support in a way, you can use it for totally non-editor tasks
19:03:37  <planetmaker> maybe a heptagram works, too
19:04:14  <glx> emacs has an integrated tetris :)
19:04:28  <frosch123> not sure whether there is a fps in emacs
19:06:13  <frosch123> but i can only guess about emacs, i only know some who use it, and i do not need to know emacs to know that they do not know it, and should better use something else
19:08:15  <planetmaker> <-- I didn't find any other reference in a quick search, but see for the quote, perk11
19:08:24  <planetmaker> the quote itself is much much older
19:08:44  <perk11> :)
19:08:49  <planetmaker>
19:09:05  <planetmaker> doesn't mention it but gives the time frame from when it originates :-)
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19:10:29  <perk11> Church of Emacs
19:11:22  <perk11> Regarding vi's modal nature, some Emacs users joke that vi has two modes – "beep repeatedly" and "break everything"
19:11:22  <perk11> lol, that's true
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19:12:47  <andythenorth_> omg
19:12:57  * andythenorth_ has clearly wandered into the wrong place
19:12:59  <andythenorth_> bye!
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19:17:23  <andythenorth_> evening
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19:34:19  <Qantourisc> i sorta make more money then i can spend fast ... any advise there :)
19:34:26  <Qantourisc> don't play it on easy ? :)
19:34:51  <Zuu_> There are plenty of topics on this on the forums
19:34:59  <Zuu_> BaseCost mod etc.
19:35:32  <Zuu_> A more complicated industry set will also give you some more challenge if you just play with the default industries.
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19:36:13  <Zuu_> For industry sets you will need a decent vehicle set for each transport mode so that you get wagons for all new cargos.
19:37:18  <Qantourisc> ok
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19:39:35  <Zuu> Also you could try setting a higher freight train weight multiplier.
19:40:00  <Zuu> That will increase the weight of loaded trains and force you to use more train engines.
19:41:02  <Qantourisc> in short: crank up the diffuculity where you can :)
19:41:22  <Zuu> Yep :-)
19:41:43  <Zuu> You could try setting the station spread to 4. That will definitly provide you with some challenge.
19:41:57  <Zuu> I once played on a server with that setting. Quite interesting game actually.
19:42:06  <Qantourisc> i tried to read about that
19:42:13  <Qantourisc> didn't understand
19:42:18  <Qantourisc> what does it mean the spread ?
19:42:53  <Zuu> The size of the rectangle in which all parts of a station must be.
19:43:13  <Zuu> So setting it to 4, will allow you to build in maximum 4x4 stations.
19:43:18  <Qantourisc> so "servicable area for shops ?"
19:43:25  <Qantourisc> aa like that
19:43:28  <Zuu> (4x4 tiles)
19:43:49  <Zuu> Default is 12, but can be increased to 64.
19:44:07  <Qantourisc> that sounds HUGE /)
19:44:37  <Zuu> It is huge, and can be used to exploit the game.
19:44:58  <Qantourisc> exploit, or "load it a lot so it slows down" ?
19:45:54  <Zuu> exploit as in making money in a way that might not be in the spirit of the game.
19:46:05  <Qantourisc> right
19:46:58  <Qantourisc> me tries x14 load :)
19:47:55  * Zuu goes and buy food
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20:10:18  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: <-- the patch is here
20:10:30  <Terkhen> it seems to work, but it will take a bit more to implement it
20:10:49  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I tested it
20:10:54  <andythenorth_> appears to work for me
20:11:04  <andythenorth_> the grf I gave you should have failed though - mistake in the nfo
20:11:36  <Terkhen> the speed of the gmund was 511 km/h so I assumed it was working
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20:25:50  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: perhaps it was :o
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20:26:19  <andythenorth_> when I checked it earlier tonight, I found a mistake in the nfo which means it shouldn't have worked
20:26:30  <andythenorth_> now fixed though - and works as expected
20:27:51  <andythenorth_> I assume if I built a long enough road it would eventually hit 511 km/h :P
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20:34:11  <xiong> Qantourisc, I'm back online if you'd like a sidebar.
20:34:19  <Terkhen> I only checked the buy window
20:34:40  <Qantourisc> xiong: sidebar ?
20:34:49  <Qantourisc> xiong: you asked a /query
20:34:51  <Qantourisc> you still need that ?
20:35:23  <xiong> Suggest.
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20:36:10  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I build a longer road...can't get the vehicle to top speed though :)
20:36:14  <andythenorth_> maybe I give it more TE....
20:36:23  <Terkhen> oh
20:36:28  <Terkhen> my patch is wrong
20:37:10  * Terkhen checks the specs
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20:38:38  <Qantourisc> xiong: mostly now need to figure out how to make this game more intresting after i finish this one and learn some tricks
20:38:39  <xiong> Qantourisc, Allow me?
20:38:45  <Qantourisc> allow me ?
20:38:46  <Qantourisc> to do ?
20:39:04  <Terkhen> <--- while determining the default value for air drag based on max speed... should it take into account the callback result too?
20:39:25  <xiong> Qantourisc, I'm trying to ask, discreetly, to have a discreet convo on the side. Okay?
20:39:43  <Qantourisc> a ok go ahead
20:41:40  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: yes, seems to me if cb36 adjusts max speed, then the air drag calculation should take that into account
20:42:09  <Terkhen> then both my patch and the current implementation of air drag in trunk are not correct
20:42:56  <andythenorth_> or the spec is wrong :P
20:43:15  <Terkhen> the spec only says "max speed", so it's not clear what to do in this case
20:43:16  <andythenorth_> I think this came up when the hoverbus was created?
20:43:23  <andythenorth_> who made that?  Roujin
20:43:25  <andythenorth_> ?
20:43:34  <Terkhen> air drag did, but not how the callback would affect it
20:43:41  <Terkhen> yes, it was Roujin
20:43:59  <Terkhen> recently I implemented air drag as described in the specs, but it currently ignored CB36 for speed
20:44:05  <Terkhen> s/ignored/ignores/
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20:47:31  <Terkhen> hmmm... with CB36 for train speed it should work in trunk, I'll have to fix the patch only
20:47:50  <Terkhen> I also want to unify how max speed is handled for all vehicles, which may take a while
20:48:05  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: for practical purposes it won't affect most RVs
20:48:13  <andythenorth_> but I guess it's better to be correct
20:48:21  <Terkhen> is an easy fix
20:50:43  <kenneth> can you set a variable on dedicated server launch ?
20:51:11  <kenneth> something like that
20:51:34  <kenneth> openttd -D -c -port 3980
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21:00:58  <Xaroth> why not just set it in the cfg? :o
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21:05:44  <planetmaker> kenneth, edit its cfg. Easier
21:05:53  <planetmaker> hm. slow me
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21:14:15  <kenneth> im having trouble with a startup script setting the server_name variable
21:14:29  <kenneth> i have tried both on_server.scr and on_dedicated.scr
21:14:49  <kenneth> Setting dedicated network server settings...
21:14:49  <kenneth> - Change setting for all clients. Usage: 'setting <name> [<value>]'
21:14:49  <kenneth> - Omitting <value> will print out the current value of the setting.
21:14:49  <kenneth> dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
21:14:49  <kenneth> just get that in return
21:15:03  <kenneth> server_name "example"
21:15:04  <kenneth> and
21:15:08  <kenneth> setting server_name "example"
21:15:11  <Xaroth> set
21:15:12  <kenneth> both give that message ?
21:15:24  <Xaroth> set "server_name example" ?
21:15:29  <kenneth> will give it a shot
21:15:30  <kenneth> 2scs
21:15:37  <Xaroth> or "set server_name example"
21:15:51  <Xaroth> or without quotes, for that matter
21:16:22  <kenneth> sorted, thanks :)
21:16:40  <Xaroth> :)
21:17:11  <kenneth> if you tweak the source code and recompile on linux for a linux dedicated server
21:17:20  <kenneth> will it get desync problems with 1.0.4 win clients
21:17:29  <kenneth> minor tweaks such as forcing a set password on join
21:17:30  <Xaroth> shouldn't
21:17:32  <kenneth> or will the packets not match
21:17:35  <Xaroth> er
21:17:40  <Xaroth> well, depends on -what- you tweak :P
21:18:11  <Xaroth> if it desyncs on a gui build, it'll probably desync on a dedi build
21:18:43  <kenneth> just want to use the existing city builder patch and try and slip it into a 1.0.4 compile
21:19:01  <Rubidium> you can't force setting a password upon joining
21:19:19  <Rubidium> you can only not allow commands and such to be executed
21:19:35  <kenneth> ah, so i can prevent commands from being executed until the password is set ?
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21:26:40  <planetmaker> kenneth, honestly, you want to set servername and such in the cfg. I'm quite sure ;-)
21:26:51  <andythenorth_> industries changing graphics over time....good idea, or just a bit confusing?
21:26:59  <planetmaker> excellent idea
21:27:37  <planetmaker> and an idea which you just put a lot of work on your own shoulders ;-)
21:27:43  <planetmaker> +with
21:29:01  <andythenorth_> hmm
21:29:10  <andythenorth_> I just changed from a non-FIRS game to a FIRS game
21:29:21  <andythenorth_> FIRS has a *lot* of industries compared to default :o
21:29:26  <planetmaker> lool
21:29:41  <planetmaker> welcome to andy's pony world :-)
21:29:56  <planetmaker> The world of endless cargo chains and heavy vehicles and strange ships
21:29:58  <andythenorth_> we should look at the suggestions for FIRS Basic
21:30:23  <planetmaker> yep, for starters that's a good thing
21:30:43  <planetmaker> cut away half the farms and half the heavy mines
21:30:48  <Rubidium> it needs a pony chain
21:31:09  <planetmaker> :-D
21:31:18  <andythenorth_> planetmaker:
21:31:22  <planetmaker> farm (pony breeding)
21:32:05  <andythenorth_> hmm
21:32:09  <planetmaker> requires: pax (bored children), farm supplies. Output: pax (happy children), food (salami)
21:32:18  <andythenorth_> glue
21:32:30  <andythenorth_> chillcore's first 'Basic' economy is quite close to default temperate
21:32:32  <planetmaker> everyone can sit on a pony ;-)
21:33:04  <andythenorth_> Alternative Basic is better
21:33:27  <andythenorth_> I think no ENSP / FMSP in basic
21:33:53  <planetmaker> yes, no supplies in basic
21:33:59  <planetmaker> and yes, alternative is better
21:34:44  <planetmaker> you might keep livestock. Not sure, though
21:34:59  <planetmaker> hm... na
21:35:14  <andythenorth_> not sure how to check the chains link
21:35:21  <andythenorth_> we need a graphing tool :P
21:35:25  <planetmaker> ^
21:35:48  <andythenorth_> livestock I don't have any opinion on
21:36:15  <andythenorth_> it simplifies removing a lot of farm types
21:36:33  <planetmaker> hm. 'alternative basic' has a flaw: where does 'lumber' come from, if there's no wood?
21:36:40  <Rubidium> in the 21st century you should start having some factories ship only mail
21:36:40  <andythenorth_> :)
21:37:08  <andythenorth_> I need to rework the FIRS website cms
21:37:20  <andythenorth_> to handle multiple economies properly
21:37:38  <Rubidium> also, why not reduce cargos to: mined stuff, grown stuff, processed stuff, mailed stuff and stuffy people?
21:37:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, easier: add MANY debug options. OpenTTD has already an ingame graphing tool ;-)
21:37:58  <andythenorth_> hmm
21:38:00  <planetmaker> You need those options anyway in the source for the economies
21:38:05  <planetmaker> But for testing each via parameter
21:38:21  <andythenorth_> action 14: cargo xyz on | off
21:38:24  <planetmaker> so what. you have many for testing - who cares. One per cargo. One per industry
21:38:28  <planetmaker> yes
21:38:37  <andythenorth_> feel free to code it :P
21:38:43  <planetmaker> you need most of it except the parameter interface
21:38:54  <andythenorth_> we need an action 14 that is only visible if newgrf developer tools are on
21:39:13  <andythenorth_> action 14 is extensible...
21:39:20  <planetmaker> :-)
21:44:08  * andythenorth_ draws a sugar refinery
21:44:09  <andythenorth_>
21:45:41  <planetmaker> <-- those are the ones next door from my place
21:46:28  <planetmaker> <-- old type
21:47:55  <planetmaker> <-- the colours are fuggly, but...
21:48:14  <andythenorth_> shiny
21:49:20  <planetmaker> <-- aerial overview
21:49:57  <andythenorth_> sugar beet?
21:50:04  <planetmaker> mostly, yes
21:50:55  <frosch123> night
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21:51:01  <planetmaker> g'night
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21:52:39  <planetmaker> typical capacity seems to be about 15 kt sugar beet per day :-)
21:54:11  <planetmaker> hm, but they only work on 100 days a year according to wiki
21:54:31  <planetmaker> and in GB 140 days and in US 270 days ;-)
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21:56:08  <andythenorth_> we won't be coding that into FIRS ;)
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21:58:23  <perk11> why?
21:58:25  <perk11> :)
21:59:30  <planetmaker> lucky us :-)
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22:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> in the 21st century you should start having some factories ship only mail <-- Pikka intended such "industries" as houses in TaI
22:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> emacs of course. What OS do you use? :-P <-- internet explorer :p
22:03:52  *** nicfer [~nicfer@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:05:42  <andythenorth_> good night
22:05:47  <planetmaker> good night andythenorth_
22:06:11  *** andythenorth_ [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_]
22:06:20  <perk11> Eddi|zuHause: omg
22:06:31  <perk11> IE OS?
22:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> perk11: it was a joke. obviously.
22:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> perk11: he called emacs an os, i called ie an os.
22:07:02  <perk11> oh, I see
22:07:13  <perk11> I'm not good at jokes :D
22:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, there actually are oses which practically consist only of a browser
22:09:21  <perk11> chrome, but not IE
22:09:42  <perk11> IE is too slow to be an OS
22:11:31  <Terkhen> good night
22:12:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21073 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: spelling errors in comments
22:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> since when is "speed" a requirement for an OS?
22:15:49  <Eddi|zuHause> for the ENTIRE history of computer technology, "speed" was a "nice to have", never ever a requirement. even "real time" environments are not optimised for speed
22:17:53  <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
22:18:08  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that makes me want to find that exception
22:18:34  <planetmaker> those certainly exist
22:19:06  <fjb> Take a look a Microsoft Phone 7. Fast and without any functionallity.
22:19:13  <Rubidium> but that depends on what "speed" means
22:20:11  <perk11> ok, I meant "IE is too slow to be a usable OS"
22:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "real time" means "you know exactly, how long it takes", not "it is fast"
22:20:23  <glx> reactivity is better than speed
22:20:41  <planetmaker> yep
22:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "to prevent spam, captchas will now contain advertisments, which you need to recite"
22:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> aka "we fight fire with fire"
22:22:11  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but for those high frequency trader stuff speed, or latency, is what matters. Not that some operating takes precisely X amount of time
22:22:11  <fjb> That was what AmigaOS did. The UI gave an instant feed back and then the event went down to the application.
22:22:58  <planetmaker> could I click faster than the app?
22:23:06  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: good reason to ditch Disney et al. for ever :)
22:23:32  <fjb> planetmaker: That never happened to me.
22:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: you mean like in KDE, where when you start an application, you get a bouncy icon which bears no relevant information on whether the application is still starting, or maybe crashed on startup?
22:23:53  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I can easily make my system so slow that that will happen
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22:24:21  <planetmaker> it happens to me when I yet again close accidentially an IRC tab while meaning to close a browser tab ;-)
22:24:23  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: No, not that way.
22:24:47  <Rubidium> e.g. by starting 5 VMs taking all 1 GiB of memory, with only 4 GiB of memory in my system. Yay swap shit storm
22:24:56  <planetmaker> so yes, I can do that, too. It's usually when it compiles concurrently ;-)
22:24:59  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know]
22:26:06  <planetmaker> and when FF has one of its ugly short-term hangs
22:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if FF hangs on IO, you might need a different scheduler
22:27:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21074 /trunk/src/saveload/waypoint_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4194]: Crash when loading a corrupted 0.7.x (or before) savegame where the waypoint refered to an already removed town
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22:53:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21075 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#4192]: Wrong (maximum) value shown for generation seed in the in-game console
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