Log for #openttd on 5th November 2010:
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03:37:16  <Kles> this game's driving me a bit crazy at the moment
03:37:22  <Kles> I can't demolish this one bus station I accidentally put down
03:37:27  <Kles> it says that I have to demolish it first
03:37:28  <Kles> to demolish it
03:37:29  <Kles> X_X
03:37:46  <Kles> "Can't clear this area... Must demolish bus station first"
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07:01:34  <norbert79> Morning... Seems I am quite early today :)
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07:40:06  <Rubidium> Kles: use the bulldozer instead of dynamite. The problem is that you don't own the road and dynamite removes everything or nothing
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08:03:01  <Terkhen> good morning
08:11:41  <planetmaker> good morning
08:26:29  <norbert79> Morning planetmaker, Terkhen
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10:00:44  <Wolf01> moin
10:03:51  <norbert79> moinmoin
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12:49:14  <__ln__> remember remember
12:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> damn, i forgot.
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13:13:41  <norbert79> Smells like Friday to me :D
13:13:50  <norbert79> Oh boy, weekend finally
13:16:10  <SirSquidness> It smells like Saturday here!
13:21:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21084 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Codechange: name a variable to cover its actual implementation better
13:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you are out of synch with this world :p
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13:34:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21085 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Feature-ish: [NewGRF] Implement stringcode 9A 0C (station name)
13:36:25  <Belugas> hello
13:37:01  <planetmaker> hello Belugas
13:38:49  <Alberth> hello
13:40:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21086 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Feature-ish: [NewGRF] String code to print the weight in format based on settings
13:43:32  <Mortomes|TGIF> norbert79: Sure does!
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13:56:26  <Belugas> hello boyz :)
13:58:07  <Ammler> Sali papi :-)
13:59:21  <dih> lol
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14:00:09  <Belugas> :)
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14:00:33  <norbert79> Today's funny:
14:02:22  <norbert79> Ok, thisn one is cuter:
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14:14:57  <AveiMil> I have trouble understanding how to pick the correct train engine. Is there some sort of rule of thumb or thinking process to go through when you decide wheter or not to purcahse the 8 K £ train or the 23K £ train... like how many tonnes of cargo can it "generally" handle?
14:16:35  <planetmaker> there's no 'correct'
14:16:44  <planetmaker> pick that which suits you
14:17:08  <planetmaker> you can sort the purchase list by speed, by power, by tractive effort.
14:17:16  <planetmaker> and more
14:17:18  <planetmaker> it all depends
14:17:27  <AveiMil> I don't know what suits me, I look at the info provided and I have no idea if cost-wise it's more efficient to purcahse the 8K train for pulling along 5 coal wagons or of it's more efficient to to purchase the 23K train
14:17:30  <AveiMil> i'll be guessing..
14:17:36  <planetmaker> AveiMil: then test
14:18:05  <planetmaker> it depends on so many factors that there's no general rule
14:18:12  <planetmaker> and... does money play a role?
14:18:29  <AveiMil> That dosen't sound like a good idea considering there's constalty new trains taht come out, you'd have to test all trains?
14:18:45  <AveiMil> Money of course is at the center of the deicion.
14:18:50  <AveiMil> It's all about cost-efficiency.
14:19:09  * planetmaker hardly ever consideres money
14:19:12  <AveiMil> but I don't see how I can intuitivly guesstimate what's cost efficient with the data presented in the game.
14:19:19  * planetmaker rather considers power and tractive effort
14:19:51  <AveiMil> So you just buy whatever is more expensive? :)
14:19:53  <planetmaker> AveiMil: you have all data. You only lack the understanding how they relate ;-) But that's anything but trivial, if you use the realistic acceleration model
14:20:19  <planetmaker> and it depends on the routes you use your trains
14:20:38  <planetmaker> are there long, steep slopes?
14:20:40  <AveiMil> The length or only if it's killy?
14:20:43  <planetmaker> weight multiplier for wagons?
14:20:45  <AveiMil> hilly*
14:20:47  <planetmaker> length of train?
14:20:49  <planetmaker> etc
14:21:04  <planetmaker> just try out
14:21:30  <AveiMil> it'll take a long time to figure all taht stuff out, I just want a rough estimate to work with :)
14:21:35  <planetmaker> if you must, save your game first, test and load again and purchase the 'optimal' engine - whatever that is by your definition
14:22:04  <Alberth> AveiMil: buying the biggest strongest engine will work
14:22:22  <planetmaker> Alberth: but there's the problem with TE, power and speed :-)
14:22:46  <planetmaker> strongest might not have sufficient TE. Higher speed, but less TE and power might make more money. Or... whatever :-)
14:22:51  <Alberth> add another engine :p
14:22:56  <planetmaker> :-)
14:23:10  <AveiMil> for instance, it would be useful to know how many tonnes of cargo the Kirby Paul train can possibly pull, like "max" cargo weight (max as in beyond this point you'll be getting horrible performance), to understand that from just looking at the data presented on the train screen.
14:23:16  <Alberth> but yeah, 1km/h over a bridge is not much fun :)
14:23:38  <AveiMil> I don't see how I can intuitivly tell that from the performance data given.
14:23:48  <planetmaker> AveiMil: then create such table and add it to our wiki, please
14:23:50  <Alberth> AveiMil: so do some experiments to see what you consider acceptable
14:24:26  <AveiMil> hehe, my point is that kind of stuff should be visible in the UI without having to do any work.
14:24:35  <AveiMil> I'm just playing the game
14:24:37  <planetmaker> as in so many fields: it needs some experimenting to get a feeling for what those numbers mean
14:24:55  <planetmaker> AveiMil: I can only repeat: there is not a single rule
14:25:07  <planetmaker> any rule will fail
14:25:42  <planetmaker> Like: what sailing ship do I need to sail from here to New York the fastest.
14:25:42  <Alberth> AveiMil: Please provide a patch, but I think you will already fail at designing a good rule
14:25:46  <AveiMil> That's fine, but there could be a unit of measurement, like how many tonnes of cargo can the train pull while maintaining a 40km/h speed on a flat track?
14:25:54  <planetmaker> It depends on wind conditions, on time of year etc pp
14:26:12  <AveiMil> and if there's information liek taht visible in the UI, I can roughly compare trains.
14:26:15  <planetmaker> and then the decision how much of the sail cross section to use. There's no general rule for that, too
14:26:32  <planetmaker> AveiMil: it's called tractive effort and power
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14:26:44  <Alberth> such data is VERY static, no use wasting screen space for that. Better add it to the wiki
14:26:44  <AveiMil> Can you explain the difference? I*m a noob.
14:26:51  <planetmaker> you just need to be able to read that. No, use the wiki
14:26:54  <AveiMil> More power = more tractive effort? :P
14:27:01  <planetmaker> the *real* wiki to read up on those terms
14:27:17  <planetmaker> it's simple physics
14:27:31  <planetmaker> interacting in a non-trivial way
14:27:39  <Alberth> you have no idea how bad I am at physics :)
14:27:54  <planetmaker> :-)
14:27:59  <AveiMil> alright, I understand what it is, so in general power is irrelevant
14:28:04  <planetmaker> gravity is a heartless bitch, I know
14:28:06  <AveiMil> tractive effort is all that matter
14:28:22  <planetmaker> you want the proof of the opposite?
14:28:28  <AveiMil> power is related of course, but you only need to know the tractive effort
14:28:33  <AveiMil> as far as I understand
14:28:54  <AveiMil> does it display the tractive effort in the game?
14:29:08  <planetmaker> ... yes
14:29:08  <AveiMil> I only remember reading the HP the trian engine has
14:29:12  <Alberth> yes, in the vehicle buy window
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14:30:10  <AveiMil> I don't see it.
14:30:32  <AveiMil> It only displays power.
14:32:13  <Alberth>
14:32:57  <AveiMil> That's not in my game
14:33:01  <AveiMil> Addon?
14:33:12  <AveiMil> advanced settings?
14:33:30  <Alberth> not that I  am aware of
14:33:57  <AveiMil> dosent' show in my game, runnig more or less default
14:34:57  <AveiMil> But knowing the tractive effort is only useful if you know how much tractive effort it takes to pull 30 tonnes of cargo...
14:35:13  <AveiMil> so if the game displayed that as well, I would have something to work with intuitively in my brain
14:35:18  <planetmaker> it does show in both stable and trunk here
14:35:27  <Alberth> it works very well relatively too (bigger is better)
14:35:38  <planetmaker> interestingly the screenshot in our wiki hasn't that line either.
14:35:49  <AveiMil> could language setting affect that it's not showig up in my game?
14:35:57  <AveiMil> what did you do to get it showing? :( I'm using 1.04
14:35:59  <planetmaker> not really
14:36:09  <planetmaker> you're not using 1.04
14:36:12  <planetmaker> there's no such version
14:36:23  <AveiMil> the game title says OpenTTD 1.0.4
14:36:25  <planetmaker> There's 1.0.4 though
14:36:27  <planetmaker> yes.
14:36:33  <AveiMil> typo obviously ;)
14:36:34  <Alberth> do you use a non-default vehicle set? (although I don't think that can cause it)
14:36:42  <AveiMil> no
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14:36:48  <AveiMil> I've only downloaded AI's
14:36:51  <AveiMil> rest is default
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14:40:32  <Alberth> ha, it depends on the train acceleration model
14:40:52  <planetmaker> :-D
14:41:14  <Alberth> since your setting does not display it, I think it is not relevant
14:41:42  <AveiMil> My train acceleration model was original
14:41:51  <planetmaker> yes. It only matters with realistic acceleration
14:42:03  <planetmaker> Yet another argument why there's no universal 'best' engine
14:42:08  <AveiMil> What's the big difference between the two?
14:42:49  <AveiMil> I wasent' looking for a universal best engine though. I was just trying to figure out intuitivel by looking at the UI which train I should choose to pull 5 coal trucks a small flat distance.
14:43:01  <AveiMil> and there's no way for me to tell, not even educiated guess
14:43:05  <AveiMil> without testing
14:43:12  <AveiMil> and that's bad game design IMHO
14:43:28  <Alberth> more like a non-complete wiki imho
14:44:09  <planetmaker> AveiMil: but it's the same question as "what's the best car?"
14:44:09  <AveiMil> Do most people play with realistic acc. model?
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14:44:27  <planetmaker> For you it might be a completely different one than for me than for my neighbour
14:44:34  <AveiMil> Not the same at all.
14:44:39  <planetmaker> very much
14:44:42  <AveiMil> I'm not asking what's the best train.
14:44:47  <planetmaker> you do
14:45:02  <AveiMil> I'm asking what's the most cost efficient train to choose to pull 5 cargo trucks a flat distance.
14:45:12  <planetmaker> you ask "what train do I need for pulling 5 coal lories". well
14:45:18  <AveiMil> is it worth it to pay 23K instead of 8K?
14:45:22  <AveiMil> that's the question.
14:45:24  <Alberth> simply take the biggest one
14:45:40  <AveiMil> what's the point of the small trains?
14:45:46  <AveiMil> then*
14:45:49  <Alberth> there is no a universal answer to that question
14:45:58  <planetmaker> in case of doubt: most powerful, fastest one
14:46:01  <AveiMil> I'm not looking for a universal answer.
14:46:12  <AveiMil> right, but I'll always be in doubt.
14:46:20  <AveiMil> Unless each train is tested.
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14:46:32  <planetmaker> then please document your findings
14:46:42  <AveiMil> and I don't want to have to do that, I should be able to get an idea of what's the best choice, even if it's a VAGUE idea, on what's a good choice
14:46:44  <Alberth> 'most efficient train to do X' sounds like asking for a universal answer imho
14:47:07  <AveiMil> not if X is spesific.
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14:47:50  <planetmaker> so the next one comes with what's the best engine to pull 7 ore wagons on a slightly hilly track
14:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: how about you conduct an experiment? make three exactly parallel lines, and use 3 available engines, then compare the results. put that on the wiki
14:48:11  <planetmaker> would it be helpful for that person to have the answer to your question displayed somewhere?
14:48:17  <Alberth> the universal answer is simple, always the biggest one.  It makes a huge difference whether it is flat terrain or hilly
14:48:27  <AveiMil> right, and if the game information displays simple information you should be able to do SIMPLE calculations in your head to figure that out, even if it's very rough and not accurate.
14:48:57  <Alberth> we had that idea already
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14:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: the game information already shows "simple" information. what you ask is "complex" information
14:49:21  <AveiMil> good game design = give user interresting choices.
14:49:30  <planetmaker> you do
14:49:43  <AveiMil> Right now I have no real choices. "Pick the stronger one"
14:49:46  <planetmaker> you know. It's even realistic
14:50:10  <planetmaker> The car dealer will also give you just these stats. And brag about max speed or whatever
14:50:25  <Alberth> always nice to see that people reject 'realistic' as soon as it gets more complex :p
14:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: that's the original game design of 15 years ago. we did notice that it's not complex, and added more choices, like wagons with speed limits. for that you need newgrfs
14:50:30  <planetmaker> But not whether it#s the most suitable car to drive through the serpentines in the Italia dolomites
14:50:52  <planetmaker> typo day it seems :-S
14:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> try dolomites with a bus, that's funny :p
14:51:16  <Alberth> nah, you just notice more of them today :p
14:51:36  <planetmaker> :-D damn
14:53:33  <AveiMil> The only thing I want to be able to do is to be able to tell from the UI how many tonnes of cargo X train can pull reasonably well (before suffering serious performance issues) by looking at the informaiton in the UI.
14:53:54  <AveiMil> If I can do that then I can calculate roughly in my head if I should get the 8K train or the 23K train for a certain task.
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14:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> <-- that's UKRS, not default vehicles?
14:55:12  <planetmaker> that's default vehicles
14:55:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... OGFX?
14:55:36  <planetmaker> sure
14:55:41  <Alberth> my NewGRF list is empty :)
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14:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... but the vehicle looks shortened...
14:56:11  <planetmaker> they aren't
14:56:18  <AveiMil> But even by turning on Realistic accel. model, even though I can now see the Tractive Effort number. It tells me nothing of value, because I don't know what that number means. There's no reference number on the coal truck that says for instance "requires 90 kN of tractive effort" to pull at a standard speed or something
14:56:25  <planetmaker> the kirby paul is shorter than 28px, though. As is the Chaney
14:56:36  <planetmaker> the others all are 28px
14:57:06  <planetmaker> AveiMil: it requires you to know how force and weight relate
14:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> right.
14:57:18  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: UKRS has these x-y-z number names
14:57:19  <planetmaker> something which can be expected to know from phyics classes
14:57:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's only visually shorter
14:57:24  <AveiMil> I'm playing a game, not trying to learn physics!!! ahhhh :)
14:57:36  <planetmaker> yes, but you learn that in your first year
14:57:39  <planetmaker> in school
14:57:48  <AveiMil> yeah
14:57:56  * Alberth has forgotten all of that :)
14:57:58  <AveiMil> but I'm not going to sit down and do calculations.
14:58:11  * planetmaker shrugs
14:58:12  <AveiMil> I'm playing a game not studying for a test.
14:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you need to know the rolling resistance coefficient of the wagons, and multiply that with their weight
14:58:23  * planetmaker also always just takes an engine which 'looks' right for the job
14:58:25  <AveiMil> The UI should tell me what I need to know to make BASIC assumptions.
14:58:41  <planetmaker> AveiMil: we know that meanwhile
14:59:31  <planetmaker> but as there's no 'one info fits all' calculation which can be made, not even roughly, that's a 'won't happen'
15:01:04  <AveiMil> Why not? Sounds so simple to me. If you know the trains TE output and you know how much TE it takes to pull lets say 50 tonnes on a straight track going 50km/h (just use something like that as a standard reference speed) then you can easily guesstimate how many coal trucks your train that produces X TE can reasonably pull.
15:01:28  <planetmaker> AveiMil: if it is simple then please come up with a patch or at least a formula
15:01:44  <AveiMil> so the TE it takes to do that should be listed on the coal truck
15:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:02:15  <AveiMil> the basic concept sounds simple. I don't know anything about developing a game, so that part is not simple.
15:02:25  <AveiMil> Not to me anyway.
15:02:53  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- is the formula that you seek
15:03:19  <Yexo> AveiMil: did you consider sloped tiles?
15:03:21  <AveiMil> I look at that and shiver.
15:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: see. so why should we not shiver?
15:03:36  <Alberth> AveiMil: so please make a table at  the wiki
15:03:36  <Yexo> if so, how many consequitive slopes should the train be able to pull to coal trucks?
15:03:48  <Yexo> and at which % of the maximum speed?
15:03:57  <planetmaker> and at which slope setting?
15:04:04  <Yexo> planetmaker: the current one of course
15:04:08  <planetmaker> :-)
15:04:09  <Alberth> with what slope steepness? and which freight multiplier?
15:04:16  <AveiMil> slopes become harder, I guess :)
15:04:27  <AveiMil> But, even know the other basic information helps.
15:04:33  <AveiMil> Because you can guesstimate on teh slopes.
15:04:35  <AveiMil> Based on that.
15:04:38  <planetmaker> and as such the info for 'just flat' is basically pointless
15:04:51  <Yexo> the main problem is that if we provide incomplete information we'll get a log of bug reports "it doesn't work for slopes"
15:05:00  <AveiMil> not to me, it gives me a reference point from which I can guesstimate from.
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15:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: this is _not_ "basic information"
15:05:22  <Yexo> you can also try it once, create a little note for yourself and use that as reference
15:05:51  <AveiMil> goes back to the idea that I don't what to test everything first before I can play properly.
15:06:10  <AveiMil> I don't think provided that kind of information is "incompleted"
15:06:12  <Yexo> but you can play properly while ignoreing those values
15:06:12  <AveiMil> just "limited"
15:06:32  <Yexo> personally I never look at them and just take an engine that is not too expensive
15:07:16  <AveiMil> To me then I just get a feeling of it being pointless. What's the point of choosing if I can't somehow gauge the relative performance values?
15:07:39  <Yexo> but you can gauge the _relative_ performance just fine
15:07:43  <Yexo> that's why you get those values
15:07:49  <AveiMil> I see one train has 300ish HP and one train has 1000HP
15:07:56  <Yexo> the only thing you can't gauge easily is the _absolute_ performance
15:07:57  <AveiMil> But I don't know even how much the 300HP train can pull
15:08:14  <Yexo> but you do know the train with 1000hp can pull more -> the relative performance is clear
15:08:16  <AveiMil> so it's no reference to gauging the 1000HP trian
15:08:21  <AveiMil> true
15:08:24  * Belugas would pick up the 1000hp and jusst go from that
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15:08:40  <Belugas> unless not enough cash is available
15:08:47  <AveiMil> My mistake, I can gauge the relative peformance off that data.
15:08:53  <Belugas> then, it would jusst be a matter of improving
15:08:58  <AveiMil> But since I don't know the performance of the 300HP trian, it's pointless data.
15:09:41  <AveiMil> you could just have a simple "Recommended cargo weight" info tip
15:09:52  <AveiMil> if that says "300 tonnes or less"
15:09:57  <AveiMil> you'll have some vauge reference point
15:11:03  <AveiMil> "Oh, look, there's 200 tonnes of coal produced at this coal mine, and the maximum recommended cargo weight for this 8K train is 100 tonnes. I better get the 23K train which ahs 250 maximum recommend cargo weight rating"
15:11:37  <AveiMil> then you'll have a starting point
15:12:38  <Alberth> well, you can discuss it until hell freezes over, but the only way to get a starting point is to make a choice, build a train, and play the game.
15:12:58  <planetmaker> so you need to test once in your life how a 300hp trains performs. And in any subsequent game you'll know. Sounds complicated
15:13:09  <planetmaker> and like a serious omission
15:13:28  * Alberth wonders what the tutorial says
15:13:29  * dih blames planetmaker
15:13:52  * planetmaker hugs dih nevertheless
15:14:05  <dih> now THAT is what I call support :-D
15:15:33  <AveiMil> So you do not think implementing a "recommended maximum cargo weight" tooltip for each train would be useful? The recommended weight would simply be calculated based on whatever criteria sounds reasonable and testing.
15:16:13  <Alberth> as soon as we have a universally agreed upon notion of 'reasonable' that would be possible.
15:16:31  <Belugas> well... given the fact i've never heard that tpe of request before, i'd be inclined to say it's far from been vital
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15:16:57  <AveiMil> developers would simply do their best and use their own sense of reasonalbe
15:17:03  <Alberth> Belugas: you must have mised a similar discussion at the forums :p
15:17:05  <Belugas> what would be the fun of trial and errors then?
15:17:24  <AveiMil> who says trial and error is fun?
15:17:27  <AveiMil> ;)
15:17:29  <Belugas> forums ? watsdat?
15:17:39  <planetmaker> We should disallow any other playing style than mine. My style is recommended anyway.
15:17:42  <planetmaker> Objections?
15:17:43  <Yexo> AveiMil: for your information: you've been discussing this with several developers already, and none of them seems to want to implement it
15:17:49  <Belugas> the place where noobs are cmplaining about no undo button?
15:18:06  <Alberth> yeah, near the impossible suggestions
15:18:09  <Yexo> it's a KNOB!
15:18:13  <planetmaker> Belugas: it's a 'knob'! ;-)
15:18:16  <planetmaker> :-D
15:18:19  <Belugas> lol
15:19:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. these damn knobs that complain constantly :p
15:19:05  <AveiMil> Sigh
15:19:21  <Alberth> make the 'undo' a shortcut to load the last autosave :)
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15:21:38  <AveiMil> Do most people online play with Realsitic accel. model or original setting?
15:21:54  <Yexo> realistic acceleration, because it's the default
15:22:12  <AveiMil> No, original is default.
15:22:17  <AveiMil> At least on my 1.0.4 installation.
15:22:52  <Yexo> hmm, I'm not sure, several servers will just use the default, but realistic acceleration seems to be more popular by those who know the difference
15:24:01  <AveiMil> hmm ok
15:24:16  * Belugas never plays with stuff markes as realistic
15:24:19  <Belugas> gives me shivers
15:25:08  <planetmaker> but ... but... 'realistic acceleration' is just mis-named. The true name is 'more-fun-acceleration'! :-)
15:25:10  <AveiMil> I've never cared about realism in games either, just good game play.
15:25:43  <AveiMil> realistic accelleration sounds good though in taht you are encouraaged to build "softer" tracks with less crazy turns
15:25:55  <AveiMil> less forgiving in a sense which I think is good
15:27:00  <Belugas> i'll buy that :)
15:27:29  <Belugas> although i wold not care if the trains are running uphill at same speed as downhill as on flat, honestly
15:27:51  <Belugas> i'd rather have a nice track layout, efficient and cute to see
15:27:58  <AveiMil> mm
15:27:58  <Belugas> my son likes it that way as well
15:28:10  <AveiMil> are there people playing this game competetivly?
15:28:24  <Yexo> yes
15:28:26  <AveiMil> This game, if played without ability to pause takes a lot of APM and should be very skill based.
15:29:22  <Yexo> Belugas: I agree, that is one of the reasons I prefer "realistic acceleration", with the original acceleration your trains slow down way too much when going uphill
15:30:44  <AveiMil> are there victory conditions in the game?
15:30:50  <AveiMil> that would be a nice touch
15:30:58  <Yexo> no, and indeed
15:31:01  <Belugas> just the ones you impose on yourself
15:31:08  <Yexo> search for :goal servers'
15:31:16  <planetmaker> well. there are. The company performance
15:31:23  <planetmaker> goal: highest score in 2050
15:31:40  <AveiMil> takes forever though?
15:31:41  <planetmaker> which is - depending upon whom you ask - difficult or not
15:31:46  <AveiMil> I left the game on at work over night
15:31:49  <AveiMil> and it was nly 2025
15:31:52  <AveiMil> when it got back this morning
15:31:53  <AveiMil> lol
15:32:21  <planetmaker> takes 14 minutes, if I start in 2049
15:32:30  <AveiMil> Clever
15:32:54  <planetmaker> but I'll have a poor score
15:33:02  <planetmaker> unless I cheat and build in pause mode
15:33:03  <AveiMil> And you won't get to start with the basic trains..
15:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: <-- example 12 shows the formula how to calculate what tractive effort you need to carry 7 wagons on a 3% slope
15:34:25  <AveiMil> Haha, I'm not touching that formula with a ten foot pole.
15:35:09  <AveiMil> Thanks for your tractive effort though.
15:35:55  <AveiMil> I don't like formulas, they expect me to put numbers into them. What do they think I am? Their slave?
15:38:35  <planetmaker> that's good news. Makes you subject to easy manipulation with crafted black-box programmes
15:39:11  <AveiMil> hmm, not sure what that means.
15:39:13  * Belugas dreams of his black box waiting at home...
15:39:17  <AveiMil> Anyone in here want to start a multiplayer game?
15:39:31  * Belugas dreams of putting his jack in that black box at home...
15:39:41  <planetmaker> there are plenty of servers running, AveiMil
15:40:03  * Belugas dreams of picking his black axe and putting his jack on it
15:40:09  <AveiMil> I know, but I don't want to "hop" into a game, I want to start from the beginning.
15:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a really simple formula, after all... for slopes < 10%: F = 9.81*n*m*(slope + resistance coeff.)
15:40:44  <AveiMil> you lost me after "for slopes"...
15:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you have failed 5th grade maths, if you don't know what a slope is.
15:42:37  <AveiMil> Not 5th grade English?
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15:44:31  <AveiMil> If I create a multiplayer server, and have AI's configured via the main menu, will AI's start popping up in the game if no human players join?
15:46:21  <Yexo> by default no, but you can enable that in the advanced settings
15:46:50  <AveiMil> ok
15:47:08  <AveiMil> How do I scroll in the console? I typed in list_cmds and it lists cmd's but I can't scroll UP.
15:47:31  <Yexo> shift+up / shift+down
15:48:17  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21087 /trunk/src/vehicle_base.h: -Doc: Align and make existing comments available for doxygen.
15:48:22  <Yexo> or pageup/pagedown instead of up/down
15:49:35  <AveiMil> Thanks guys
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15:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: once you understand the above formula, you can go on with F = min(P/v, Max_TE)
15:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> where for "low" speeds, this is Max_TE, and for "high" speeds, this is P/v
15:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (for "very high" speeds, you need to factor in wind resistance)
15:56:40  <Eddi|zuHause> let's assume "high" speed and flat land, you have P/v = 9.81*n*m*resistance
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15:58:17  <AveiMil> When you choose train orders, there's "far end, near ned, middle", this means?
15:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> now to go on, you need to decide which of these values you want to calculate.
15:58:37  <AveiMil> Far end of the station? How do I know which end is the far and end which is the near end?
15:58:41  <Yexo> if the train platform is longer than the train, it's the location where it'll stop
15:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: "near" is the side the train comes from
15:59:05  <AveiMil> ah ok
15:59:05  <AveiMil> thanks
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16:00:54  <Belugas> Wicked Time :)
16:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: now assume you have given the values: P = 300PS = 223kW, v = 64km/h = 17m/s, m = 48t = 48000kg, resistance coefficient: assume 0.005 for simplicity, dunno what the game uses internally. want to know n.
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16:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> n = 223*1000/(9.81*48000*17*0.005) [Nm/s/(N/kg*kg*m/s)]
16:07:43  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 223*1000/(9.81*48000*17*0.005)
16:07:43  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.5715456417
16:07:43  *** Mortomes|TGIF [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> answer: a Kirby Paul Tank can haul 5 wagons at top speed
16:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: get it?
16:11:27  *** Mucht [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:12:45  <AveiMil> Cool, can I use you to do all my calculations?
16:12:46  <AveiMil> :)
16:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. for 100€ per hour.
16:13:29  <AveiMil> € currency, is that play money?
16:13:49  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you can play with it on paypal. yes
16:14:09  <AveiMil> lol
16:14:27  * Belugas shuffles AveiMil's nick and comes up with I AM EVIL
16:14:28  <AveiMil> € = some weird symbol in my IRC client
16:14:42  <AveiMil> Belugas, stop being so clever.
16:14:53  <Belugas> 666!
16:15:00  <Belugas> VADE RETRO SATANAS!
16:15:02  <AveiMil> Shuffle some more :)
16:16:18  <AveiMil> Belugas, how did you spot that, or even try it? Nobody else has ever figured that out.
16:16:40  <Belugas> i've got a magic touch...
16:16:46  <Belugas> and a twisted mind
16:16:51  <glx> Belugas is not always overbooked at work :)
16:16:57  <Belugas> lol
16:17:01  <Belugas> a cookie for glx :)
16:17:22  <Belugas> plus, i'm on my lunch break :D
16:17:22  <AveiMil> if you shuffle more you'll find one more
16:17:50  <Yexo> I'm alive
16:18:00  <AveiMil> very good
16:18:09  <Belugas> oh shoot.. he fast faster
16:18:12  <Belugas> was
16:20:38  <AveiMil> hehe
16:20:52  <AveiMil> Now that you know, I'll have to kill you though.
16:20:57  <AveiMil> Please line up in an orderly fashion.
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16:26:30  <planetmaker> @kick boom ups?!
16:26:31  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: boom is not in #openttd.
16:26:41  <planetmaker> damn spoilt it
16:27:19  <SmatZ> @whoami
16:27:19  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I don't recognize you.
16:28:03  <planetmaker> @op SmatZ
16:29:26  <SmatZ> planetmaker: maybe that's because I got new hostmask with the new BNC
16:29:43  <SmatZ> @whoami
16:29:43  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: SmatZ
16:29:46  <SmatZ> bah
16:29:51  <SmatZ> works now :)
16:29:59  <SmatZ> I needed to re-identify
16:30:13  <planetmaker> SmatZ: yes, you can add (in private) the new host mask. That helps
16:30:38  <planetmaker> just hostmask add (or vice versa, don't know anymore)
16:30:47  <SmatZ> thank you, planetmaker
16:31:10  <planetmaker> :-) you're always welcome
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16:34:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21088 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Additions/corrections of doxygen comments.
16:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... a test doesn't exactly confirm these numbers. i tried michi_cc's acceleration patch. kirby with 3 wagons: 59km/h, 5 wagons: 48 km/h, 7 wagons: 40km/h
16:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so, did i make a calculation mistake, is my physics off, is the game's physics off?
16:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> something completely different: did something change with the icons? it now has a black border, instead of transparent border...
16:45:25  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong about those numbers?
16:45:49  <SmatZ> with what icons?
16:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: my calculation above said kirby can pull 5 wagons at top speed (64km/h
16:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: the game icon
16:46:03  <AveiMil> What happends if I quit the game after having started a server? Do the others connected keep playing (server transer) or is everyone disconnected?
16:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: everyone is disconnected
16:46:31  <AveiMil> Is there a way to run a 'server' independetly of my client?
16:46:45  <AveiMil> or perhaps I can hvae two client sessions running
16:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> err... what?
16:47:17  <AveiMil> lets say I wanted to play a new game, but wanted to keep the server up for the rest to keep playing
16:47:20  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I think the icon hasn't changed for long time
16:47:30  <AveiMil> looks like I can start multiple instances of OpenTTD
16:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: but _something_ changed...
16:47:40  <SmatZ> at least since March when I did my checkout
16:48:04  <planetmaker> :-)
16:53:13  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: My patch has a rolling friction that is technically too high but gives a better balance overall. That might make it not perfect for very low-powered engines.
16:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... university computers are not responding
16:53:44  <michi_cc> But adjusting the power and or TE in OTTD's table for the Kirby isn't too difficult.
16:54:56  <michi_cc> Reducing the rolling friction to real-world values makes the more powerful engines too similar.
16:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: something weird i noticed, not sure if that is physically correct. the engine is practically instantly at 40km/h, but then abruptly struggels going faster
16:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> is that the point where P/v < max_te?
16:55:30  <michi_cc> With wagons or without?
16:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i ran trains with 3, 5 or 7 wagons
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16:56:13  <michi_cc> But yes, I'd guess that power and TE of the Kirby aren't matched very well.
16:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 223/(40/3.6)
16:57:10  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 20.07
16:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't trust my phyics
16:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> *physics even
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16:58:42  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: If you're testing, has slightly improved values for road vehicles.
16:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't play with RV very often...
17:02:02  <Belugas> interesting... When the Levee Breaks is NOT a ledzep original song.  An old blues, in fact.  Thanks wiki :)
17:02:19  <michi_cc> Which wagons did you use for testing? Full or empty? I get 53 km/h for a Kirby with 8 empty coal wagons (209t).
17:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> full coal wagons
17:02:33  <michi_cc> 9 wagons
17:02:50  <michi_cc> Okay, let me find a coal mine :
17:02:54  <michi_cc> )
17:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> thank god for the fast forward button ;)
17:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> distance was like 20 tiles straight flat rail
17:05:44  <michi_cc> I'd say the Kirby is seriously underpowered for use as a freight engine. With just 300 HP for 64 km/h it's no wonder it can't pull much at top speed, that's more like an engine for fast and light passenger trains.
17:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> 64km/h isn't exactly fast either ;)
17:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can judge fairly easily, the kirby is practically useless unless you start very early ;)
17:08:22  <michi_cc> I know that 64 km/h isn't fast :), the ratios of the engine properties is just more like an express engine.
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18:08:35  <Aali> minor problem with r21077 and I assume earlier versions; if you choose OpenSFX as your sound set then delete those files OpenTTD will not fallback to anything and will simply refuse to start
18:08:49  <Aali> sure I can edit the config file to make it happy but thats not very nice
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18:11:56  <Belugas> to what would it fallback to?
18:12:14  <Belugas> idea is that yo NEED sound effect files
18:12:48  <Belugas> evn if silent ones...
18:14:38  <Aali> well, changing the config option to "" made it work
18:15:05  <Aali> so whatever that does could be worth trying before giving up
18:17:18  <planetmaker> Belugas: OpenTTD comes with NoSound
18:17:55  <Belugas> hem...
18:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the request is valid
18:18:22  * Belugas resumes work@work, ashamed by his sudden lack of knowledge
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18:45:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21089 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
18:45:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 5 changes by Phreeze
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19:17:40  <Belugas> ho boy...
19:17:47  <Belugas> talk about outdated patch..
19:17:48  <Belugas> --- src/ai/default/default.cpp	(revision 9601)
19:18:31  <Belugas> even better :D
19:18:32  <Belugas> v
19:18:33  <Belugas> --- town_cmd.c	(revision 3077)
19:18:44  <Belugas> i really need to clean my stuff up!
19:19:05  <__ln__> well, since the processing time of patches is about 15000 revisions, ...
19:20:25  <__ln__> i have: --- station_cmd.c	(revision 1298)
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19:23:43  <peter1138> :)
19:24:51  <__ln__> I didn't even remember I had made such a patch.... obviously I have.  I wonder if it is multiplayer-safe.
19:26:03  <__ln__> Oh, part of it is contributed by Bjarni.
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19:27:14  <Belugas> dear Bjarni :)
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19:28:22  <__ln__> AFAIK the feature is not yet implemented in OTTD so in that sense the patch is still necessary.
19:32:26  * andythenorth_ ponders a 6 storey building for the sugar refienry
19:32:28  <andythenorth_> refinery :P
19:33:40  <Belugas> ... reminds me...
19:33:54  <Belugas> sugar refinery for tropics
19:34:02  <andythenorth_> indeed
19:34:12  <Belugas> as well as rhum distillery :D
19:34:14  <andythenorth_> looks different to sugar refinery for temperate / arctic :P
19:34:22  <andythenorth_> sugar refinery == rum distillery
19:34:26  <andythenorth_> at least it did in mauritius
19:34:37  <andythenorth_> I might add BEER cargo to FIRS for fun
19:34:42  <Belugas> as in carabeans
19:34:59  <andythenorth_> It would be Alcohol, but label would *have* to be BEER :P
19:35:25  * Belugas has warm memories of Martinique's rum...
19:35:27  <andythenorth_> we have no problem putting Alcohol in a game kids might play?
19:35:29  <Belugas> man that was good
19:36:07  <Belugas> andythenorth_: "just" need to add "are you 18 and over? <ENTER> <LEAVE>"
19:36:17  <Belugas> i've seent hat somewhere... can't recall where...
19:36:56  <andythenorth_> I wonder if there's actually a legal issue with it in some territories? :P
19:37:05  <andythenorth_> I'll probably ship it and find out...
19:37:11  <Belugas> :D
19:37:13  <Alberth> I would not be surprised if it is
19:37:34  <andythenorth_> I'm not planning to add 'Crack' or 'Slaves'
19:37:54  <andythenorth_> or Weapons of Mass Destruction
19:39:15  <Alberth> in the desert, and the factory never produces one :p
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19:43:08  <planetmaker> hm... interesting topic it seems. Returning and the first words I see are 'slaves', 'WoM' and 'crack'
19:43:26  <planetmaker> sounds like contraband economy for FIRS :-P
19:46:02  <AveiMil> Alternative Base Costs version 1.1, is that any good, anyone tried it?
19:46:26  <AveiMil> Wondering if I want to try that one or with one of the presets...
19:46:46  <Belugas> i gues it has been tested :)
19:46:47  <Belugas>
19:47:05  <planetmaker> :-)
19:47:50  <Belugas> now... is it good?  depends on what you base your definition of good :)
19:48:46  <AveiMil> I saw that forum post but there ain't exactly much feedback
19:49:07  <planetmaker> we use something like that to up the running costs for planes to like 11M in unmodified units (w/o inflation) ;-)
19:49:36  <planetmaker> But I guess we use v3 or so
19:50:25  <planetmaker> but I might err with the versions
19:52:01  <AveiMil>
19:52:10  <AveiMil> it says something about "max 8 pairs" and another version "max 22 pairs"
19:52:13  <AveiMil> what's that about?
19:55:20  <planetmaker> version difference
20:04:35  <Qantourisc> Ps should i be using normal singals ? or the YAPP ones ?
20:04:39  <Qantourisc> (Or path ones)
20:06:54  <andythenorth_> path
20:07:22  <planetmaker> block
20:07:27  <Belugas> inimanmo....
20:07:43  <andythenorth_> no signals!
20:07:48  <Belugas> am stram gram pick et pick et gram
20:07:55  <Belugas> bour et bour et ratatam
20:08:04  <Belugas> TU T'Y COLLE!
20:08:23  <planetmaker> uh... now it starts to take off.... All people take cover! ;-)
20:08:49  <andythenorth_> hmm
20:09:00  <andythenorth_> Beer should from now on be known as 'FIRS cargo 1D'
20:09:13  <andythenorth_> Belugas may have been drinking FIRS Cargo 1D
20:09:17  <SmatZ> :)
20:09:18  <andythenorth_> or may want to be
20:09:20  <Belugas> lol
20:09:27  <planetmaker> lool and lool
20:09:28  <Belugas> the later :)
20:09:33  <planetmaker> Highlight works.
20:09:36  <planetmaker> enjoy, Belugas
20:09:51  <Belugas> unfortunately, i will not :(
20:09:55  <planetmaker> :-(
20:10:02  <Belugas> the guy i was supposed to jam with tonigh has canceled
20:10:09  <planetmaker> :-(
20:10:14  <planetmaker> the British one?
20:10:16  <Belugas> no, uit's not peter1138 ;)
20:10:36  <Belugas> it's a very old friend of mine
20:10:39  <Belugas> he plays guit too
20:10:42  <planetmaker> what about your younger half-clone? ;-)
20:10:56  <Belugas> we used to live on the same appartmemt when we were 20s
20:11:09  <planetmaker> ho... those were the times my friend...
20:11:33  <Belugas> quite :) as for my son, i think i'll jam a good reading bed time with him ;)
20:11:51  <Belugas> he'll be pleased, he still thinks i'll be out tonigh
20:11:59  <planetmaker> :-)
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20:17:46  <AveiMil> how do I turn the music volume further down?
20:17:56  <AveiMil> It's all the way to the left, yet the music is still playing.
20:18:05  <AveiMil> I want it lower :)
20:18:16  <SmatZ> the volume control doesn't work
20:18:16  <andythenorth_> where would BEER go?
20:18:20  <Rubidium> press on the button with the black square
20:18:22  <SmatZ> in my mouth!
20:18:32  <SmatZ> :)
20:18:35  <planetmaker> :-D
20:18:45  <andythenorth_> SmatZ: does the station acceptance code handle that?
20:18:49  <Belugas> hotels, houses, i'd say
20:18:53  <SmatZ> andythenorth_: nope :(
20:18:55  * Rubidium thought most of it went into SmatZ's car's trunk
20:18:59  <SmatZ> :D
20:19:00  <Belugas> airports too!
20:19:05  <SmatZ> houses
20:19:15  <planetmaker> town growth effect: HUGE
20:19:20  <SmatZ> :)
20:19:39  <andythenorth_> I reckon there's a sweet spot
20:19:39  <Belugas> ho?  SmatZ had a craving for good stuff at the party?
20:19:44  <Belugas> interesting rumor :)
20:19:46  <andythenorth_> some beer == huge town growth
20:19:53  <andythenorth_> too much beer == town shrink
20:19:56  <planetmaker> he brought interesting stuff even, Belugas :-)
20:20:05  <andythenorth_> we need TownControl to allow beer
20:20:06  <SmatZ> :)
20:20:25  <Belugas> Town Control to Major SmatZ
20:20:27  <Belugas> her....
20:20:48  <SmatZ> :-D
20:21:06  <Belugas> that party... i regret SO MUCH not havig been there :(
20:21:48  <planetmaker> there will be others :-)
20:22:17  <Belugas> with all you guys?
20:22:18  <planetmaker> next one on the other side of the "big puddle"
20:22:28  <planetmaker> (that's how I called the North Sea when I was about 8
20:22:30  <Belugas> not Chicago...please...
20:22:41  <planetmaker> Belugas: why Chicago?
20:22:45  <planetmaker> At YOUR place ;-)
20:23:19  <SmatZ> :)
20:23:41  <planetmaker> the land of the (still) free ;-)
20:24:24  <Belugas> my place?  ANYTIME
20:24:31  <Belugas> as long as the basement is completed...
20:24:34  <SmatZ> :)
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20:26:18  <planetmaker> hm... interesting. "Land of the free" is the national anthem of Belize
20:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i know a better one: the melody of the anthem of Maryland is that of "O Tannenbaum"
20:27:55  <Belugas> i wonder how planetmaker had the idea to verify Land Of the Free on google...
20:28:18  <Belugas> or else
20:28:31  <planetmaker> I had that phrase in my mind... and needed to make sure I didn't tell complete bullshit
20:29:18  <__ln__> tip of the day: did you know: finnish and estonian national anthems have exactly the same melody
20:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the melody of the english anthem is very popular
20:29:45  <planetmaker> and obviously it's not entirely un-ambigeous
20:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it was used for the prussian anthem "Heil dir im Siegeskranz"
20:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and several other places
20:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think Liechtenstein still has that melody in their anthem
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20:33:36  <planetmaker> there's indeed less melodies than texts around ;-)
20:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and i think they reused the melody of the soviet anthem in the russian anthem
20:34:15  * Belugas loves melodies
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20:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> „God Save the King“ [stellt] einen Urtyp der Monarchen gewidmeten feierlichen patriotischen Lieder [dar], weshalb auch andere – auch deutsche – FÃŒrstenhymnen zu dieser Melodie gesungen wurden (wie im Falle der russischen Zarenhymne von 1816–1833 Molitwa Russkich oder der Bayernhymne Heil unserm König, Heil!) und noch werden (wie im Falle der liechtensteinischen Hymne Oben am jungen Rhein). Selbst von FÃŒrstenhymnen abgesehen
20:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> wurden damals auch andere Nationalhymnen wie die frÃŒhere Schweizer Hymne Heil Dir Helvetia und das amerikanische ReprÀsentationslied „My Country, 'Tis of Thee“ zur selben Melodie gesungen.
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21:03:59  <AveiMil> If I've created 5 busses and I have them in production and I want to change the bus route for all of them at the same time (same route) can I do that without induvidually giving them orders?
21:04:23  <andythenorth_> Alberth: ^
21:04:35  <andythenorth_> :)
21:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:04:59  <Alberth> didn't you want consists instead? :p
21:05:11  <AveiMil> How?
21:05:21  <Alberth> AveiMil: currently, you can use shared orders
21:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: by giving them shared orders
21:05:43  <andythenorth_> Alberth: I think I voted for 'no change' at some point :)
21:06:07  <AveiMil> Where's that option?
21:06:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i think you voted for about every option that was up to debate :p
21:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: with the magic Ctrl key
21:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: see "hidden features" in the wiki
21:06:38  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that makes it easy, we just pick the one we like best as andys vote :)
21:07:24  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07:56  <andythenorth_> as long as we don't make ~everything depend on hierarchical groups, I shall stand nearby and applaud :P
21:08:13  <Alberth> alternatively, search for 'shared orders' at the wiki
21:10:20  <Alberth> good night
21:10:29  <andythenorth_> good night
21:11:04  <planetmaker> good night Alberth
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21:11:34  <AveiMil> Nice, thanks
21:11:34  <Belugas> me too... time to leave ome
21:11:38  <Belugas> GOOD WEEKEND!!
21:11:43  <andythenorth_> have some FIRS Cargo 1D on me :P
21:12:15  <planetmaker> same to you Belugas !
21:13:24  <Qantourisc> PS: what increases the production of raw materials ?
21:19:49  <andythenorth_> what industry set?
21:22:53  <Qantourisc> the first one ? temperance ?
21:23:24  <andythenorth_> provide good service at the industry
21:23:32  <Qantourisc> ok thx
21:23:34  * Qantourisc tries
21:23:37  <andythenorth_> over time, it may increase production (there is a random factor)
21:23:44  <Qantourisc> i see
21:23:53  <Qantourisc> so the once that stayed small where served bad :)Ã
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21:29:30  <planetmaker> can I change the engine effect via callback?
21:36:26  <planetmaker> hm. yes. callback 10
21:37:37  <planetmaker> Nice though :-)
21:39:54  <Terkhen> good night
21:41:10  <planetmaker> night Terkhen
21:41:37  <SmatZ> good night, Terkhen
21:42:28  <Qantourisc> suddenly 4 lanes aren't enough :)
21:42:36  <Qantourisc> and no amount of money can fix it :)
21:49:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the number of lanes is hardly ever the bottleneck
21:51:29  <Qantourisc> true
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21:58:42  <xiong> Hi, guys.
21:58:55  <Qantourisc> hi
21:59:52  <xiong> I see references to a copy-and-paste feature but they are very sparse and it's unclear what this does or how to work it. I see Copy and Paste functions in an Extra Viewport window; is this the same thing? Or is there some other feature?
22:00:37  <xiong> Hi, Qantourisc.
22:00:48  <xiong> How is your road coming along?
22:00:57  <Qantourisc> road ?
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22:01:37  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:02:50  <xiong> ... your railroad network...
22:05:09  <Qantourisc> a it went ok until the 60's
22:05:28  <Qantourisc> then 500+ unit intrusties started to pop up
22:05:44  <xiong> Ha! Finally I have got a workable answer to the vehicle length question.
22:06:06  <Qantourisc> it was ok cause i got a 4 line traffic setup
22:06:08  <Qantourisc> but then
22:06:23  <Qantourisc> 1000+ intrusties poped up
22:06:34  <xiong> In the depot window, at the right end of every train, is a tiny little number, which is the length of the whole train in half-tile increments, rounded up.
22:06:38  *** enr1x [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:06:42  <Qantourisc> no the line is full of trains and constantly jamming cause of broken trains
22:07:03  <xiong> To my eyes, this number is essentially invisible, just a speck. But my magnifying glass shows it is there.
22:07:11  *** KouDy [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:07:22  <Qantourisc> hehe
22:07:46  *** bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
22:07:53  <xiong> Qantourisc, There are certain standard things you can do to smooth out rail operations. I don't pretend to know them all but I've been studying like mad for weeks.
22:08:13  <xiong> Let's run through the list, see what you may have missed?
22:08:29  <Qantourisc> don't worry this map is lost cause :D
22:09:18  <xiong> Corners; no tight corners. Junctions; avoid merge-before-split. Signals; no train stops with its back end in a junction.
22:09:18  <Qantourisc> can try minor fixed though
22:09:45  <Qantourisc> they only stop in a junction when they brake down :)
22:10:14  <xiong> Reduce servicing intervals; build plenty of depots; force servicing before entering critical junctions.
22:10:47  <xiong> Make sure there are alternate, well-signaled paths available on critical routes.
22:10:48  <Rubidium> that's simply Murphy's law
22:11:11  <xiong> Um, actually, it's something else but I can't remember its name.
22:11:29  <xiong> You tend to remember things that stand out.
22:11:47  <xiong> Your attention is not called to a breakdown that happens way out on a branch line.
22:12:20  <xiong> Qantourisc, I have had some success with plenty of tunnels.
22:12:23  <Rubidium> or Sod's law, or maybe even Finagle's Law
22:12:38  <Qantourisc> i lack space
22:12:45  <Qantourisc> it's all too tighithly packed
22:12:57  <Qantourisc> half of these fixes are tricky given the situation
22:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it's not Godwins law, everything's fine :p
22:13:17  <xiong> There's also the feeder strategy. If you push goods from several industries towards one big station, it keeps your mainline clean for only the big trains.
22:13:50  <xiong> Qantourisc, This is your which-nth game?
22:13:59  <Qantourisc> 2-nth :)
22:13:59  <Rubidium> isn't naming Godwin's law actually invoking sad law?
22:14:17  *** X-2 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14:19  <Qantourisc> restarted the first one because money was running in for none
22:14:21  <xiong> Ah. Well, I had to throw out several of my early attempts.
22:14:28  <Qantourisc> :)
22:14:42  <xiong> Ho ho. It's hard to go broke in OTTD. You deserve some sort of award.
22:15:17  <Qantourisc> citties are also densly packed too to allow big fat stations
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22:15:25  <Qantourisc> also i limited the stations to 4x4 :)
22:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you can quickly go broke if you spend all your money on autoreplace, and then your network locks up
22:15:46  <xiong> Try this, next map: Start a cheap, simple loop of track around three towns; build three, 1-track through stations and saturated the line with pax trains. This is a disposable division but it will generate cash.
22:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can't get the lockup resolved quickly...
22:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> especially in ECS, when your productivity network (vehicles) breaks
22:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it's hard to get going again
22:16:47  <xiong> I built 3 of these to get started on my current map; I haven't dismantled them yet, although I will when I want the room for something else. They just whiz around making money. I don't care if they work well.
22:17:08  <AveiMil> hey, I downloaded and played with, I think it's great EXCEPT that' it has gone overboard with a few things like terra forming, is there any way I can edit these settings my self?
22:17:19  <AveiMil> I'd like to tone down for instance x2048 raise/lower land
22:17:35  * andythenorth_ bedtime
22:17:38  <andythenorth_> good night
22:17:46  *** andythenorth_ [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_]
22:17:59  <xiong> Another big win is early bus stops. Throw 3-5 bus stops down in a town, even a small town, and run about 8 buses around -- not non-stop, since you don't really care where they load/unload. Fuels town growth something fierce. Big towns eq big money.
22:18:21  <Qantourisc> hehe :)
22:18:54  <Qantourisc> got 137 trains :)
22:19:52  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: in the newgrf settings, select the grf, and click on "change parameters"
22:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (if the grf has parameters)
22:20:37  <xiong> Nice. But where are they?
22:20:42  <Qantourisc> also important is overflow it seems :)
22:20:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (there are basecost grfs out there which do)
22:21:09  <xiong> What I mean to say is, where are they making money? But then, I think you're talking about your current game, not the one where you went broke.
22:21:19  <xiong> What do you mean by 'overflow'?
22:21:22  <AveiMil> "set parameters" only prompts a text box where I can write
22:21:30  <planetmaker> yep
22:21:49  <planetmaker> unless you play nightly and use new newgrfs which support the nice new GUI for that ;-)
22:22:03  <xiong> AveiMil, Parameter setting is often very primitive. You just type '0 0 3' or whatever (no quotes).
22:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i was asking for this before: "build foundation" basecost should be decoupled from "terraforming" basecost
22:22:13  *** Zen0x [] has joined #openttd
22:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you need to check the readme first on which parameters it accepts
22:22:38  <Zen0x> Hi there, is there anyone who can help me and a friend ?
22:22:47  <AveiMil> There's no mention of parameters in the readme
22:22:50  <xiong> The nightly parameter interface is very nice but not all grfs support it.
22:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: then use a different grf
22:23:15  <xiong> Zen0x, I will not help you move to your new apartment in my nice new 1990 Volvo wagon. Sorry.
22:23:42  <xiong> AveiMil, Not all grfs have parameters.
22:23:59  <Zen0x> Haha whaaaat ? :P No we have some lan issues. The game freezes and disconnect. It works perfect in single player
22:24:25  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: did you miss the commit that made it possible to set a different foundation cost compared to terraform?
22:24:54  <Rubidium> Zen0x: OpenTTD doesn't like packet loss and unstable connections at all
22:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: probably. it's not in the grf anyway ;)
22:25:19  <Zen0x> We have cable both of us
22:25:57  <Rubidium> Zen0x: it relies on the operating system ensuring the data gets to the client correctly in an orderly fashion. If the operating systems fails with that, then the client seems to freeze because it's not told that it is safe to continue.
22:25:59  <Zen0x> And i have fixed the network connection thing but no result
22:26:26  <AveiMil> The parameter GUI at the bottom there
22:26:31  <AveiMil> can't get that with 1.0.4?
22:26:35  <planetmaker> no
22:26:46  <Zen0x> Well we both have Windows 7, he have 64bit i have 32.
22:27:09  <AveiMil> what is the difference between "nightly" and testing version?
22:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Zen0x: either of you have torrents or other bandwidth intensive stuff running?
22:28:02  <Rubidium> AveiMil:
22:28:05  <xiong> AveiMil, FWIW, I've been playing nightly for a week now. It doesn't seem to be a horrible bleeding edge thing. The devs on this project have a reasonably sober trunk commit policy.
22:28:21  <Zen0x> Eddi|zuHause we are gonna try that now ;)
22:28:24  <xiong> That's my first concern: stability.
22:28:46  <xiong> The other thing is that nightly includes a slew of very nice features. I recommend.
22:29:33  <AveiMil> A new version is out every night? So you HAVE to upgrade?
22:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you don't have to upgrade every night. but after a reasonable amount of time you should do that. and if you play multiplayer, all players need the exact same version
22:30:31  <Zen0x> Nope it didnt work at all. It actually start to freeze when it is downloading the map. Then after a few seconds i can join the game and then for a 3 sec it freeze and disconnect from the host
22:31:02  <planetmaker> sounds like bad conncection
22:31:21  <Zen0x> but we are on the same connection and under a meter to the router
22:31:25  <AveiMil> I see
22:31:37  <Zen0x> both are on the cable
22:32:31  <AveiMil> is there a "populare" nightly build that is widely used in mp?
22:32:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Zen0x: new game or game with lots of vehicles?
22:33:26  <Zen0x> It is a new game starting random. Ice map 256x256
22:34:31  <Zen0x> It is only in the multiplayer it freezes
22:35:25  <Rubidium> what "it" is freezing and when does the freezing of "it" occur exactly?
22:35:29  <AveiMil> If I wanted to created a NewGRF similar to, what tools and knowledge would I need?
22:36:02  <Rubidium> grfcodec and the ability to write nfo
22:36:10  <planetmaker> I'd recommend NML ;-)
22:36:18  <planetmaker> it should support that already nicely
22:38:23  <Zen0x> I dont know it happen in the multiplayer menu. And when im connecting to my friend it stops for a few secs. And it joins the game. I can play for 5 seconds MAX before it freeze again and get disconnected : Network Game connection lost. On my friends screen it says : Connection Lost
22:38:28  <AveiMil> What is an nfo? Only .nfo I am familiar with are the ones released by cracking groups.
22:38:39  <Zen0x> *behind my nick
22:39:16  <planetmaker> AveiMil: both nml and nfo are programming languages
22:39:24  <planetmaker> Those in which newgrf are written
22:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: no, not those :p
22:39:45  <Rubidium> Zen0x: something fishy is going on there, but... Windows 7 is far from my area of expertise so I've got no clue what is/can be wrong
22:40:16  <AveiMil> I see, is it a hard language?
22:40:17  <Rubidium> nevertheless, there is as far as I am aware nothing that should freeze the multiplayer (server) lists
22:40:31  <Rubidium> s/should/could/
22:40:39  <AveiMil> I only know some VBScript, limited experience with programming.
22:41:33  <planetmaker> you wanted to know what you'd need to know...
22:41:43  <planetmaker> it's not overly complex though
22:41:49  <planetmaker> (in those cases)
22:42:03  <AveiMil> altbasecosts.grf, can I decode that with one of the tools and read the code in a text editor?
22:42:15  <Zen0x> Hmm i know, newer had have ANY problems with openttd before... Im just a little mad, me and my friend have looking forward to this evning playing openttd and that
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22:43:10  <planetmaker> AveiMil: use grfcodec...
22:43:32  <AveiMil> -> Downloaded that, but there's no GUI? hehe
22:43:37  <planetmaker> Or much easier and much better readable: browse the source repository. It's a GPL'ed newgrf
22:43:54  <planetmaker> did you expect a GUI? bad luck
22:44:10  <Rubidium> Zen0x: the problem is that there are a few reports of such "issues", but none of the reporters are able to provide enough information to get a clue on the problem; providing enough information implies being able to compile OpenTTD and run a debugger
22:44:33  <Zen0x> How do i do that ?
22:44:34  <planetmaker>
22:44:40  <planetmaker> ^ AveiMil
22:44:40  <Rubidium> or, in other words: none of the developers could ever reproduce the issue and as such we have no clue where to look
22:45:23  <Zen0x> How can i debug it ?
22:45:28  <Rubidium> Zen0x: can't answer that as I'm not sure how to do it on Windows myself
22:45:35  <Zen0x> Hmm
22:45:45  <Rubidium> regardless of that, my bed keeps calling me
22:46:08  <planetmaker> :-) Best regards to your bed and have a good night then, Rubidium ;-)
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22:49:13  <AveiMil> planetmaker, I downloaded and opened a key file, which I see lists the various features like "T" \d24 7F "clear rocks " 00
22:49:32  <planetmaker> has the main stuff
22:49:36  <AveiMil> But there's no intuitive multipliers defined, so I'm guessing this is because they're set with paramters.
22:49:43  <planetmaker> yes
22:50:39  <AveiMil> So I'd rather take a look at that alternative base cost mod because it looks like he has a fixed list.
22:50:45  <AveiMil> Probably easier to see a string of logic.
22:51:18  <AveiMil> grfcodex.exe enables decoding? can't see the -switches in the help
22:51:32  <AveiMil> oh there
22:51:51  <AveiMil> guessing -d means decode
22:54:18  <AveiMil> So I get a .nfo file, which is just some description and what looks like a bit of hex code.
22:55:58  <planetmaker> nfo is hex
22:57:28  <AveiMil> Is there a way to view that content in an editor/GUI?
22:58:06  <planetmaker> any editor of your choice
22:58:28  <AveiMil> 00 08 01 31 00 08 08 09 07 08 0D 09 09 09 0E 0C 07 0C 08 08 0E 07 08 0A 07 09 08 11 08 09 0A 09 have to relate to these settings:
22:58:33  <AveiMil> But how can I tell what's what?
22:58:56  <AveiMil> What do you use?
23:00:22  <planetmaker> AveiMil: that's the interesting part ;-) NFO is... semi-binary to read
23:00:33  <planetmaker> but grfcodec surely produces a bit better ouput
23:02:13  <AveiMil> So humor me, what's your work process to read and understand what is in that .nfo file?
23:03:00  <AveiMil>
23:05:08  <planetmaker> AveiMil: that's why I suggested to use NML. But there's no de-compilation into it
23:05:22  <planetmaker> it's a true pain to read raw nfo
23:05:43  <planetmaker> is that really the output of grfcodec for that grf?
23:06:19  <AveiMil> yes
23:06:33  <AveiMil> <- that? downloaded it but there's no .exe
23:06:36  <AveiMil> unix stuff
23:06:37  <planetmaker> looks nearly like worse case
23:06:37  <AveiMil> ?
23:07:17  <planetmaker> oh. nml has no exe. it's a python script collection
23:08:14  <AveiMil> How is that collection going to help me understand what's in that .nfo? :)
23:08:26  <planetmaker> not at all
23:08:38  <planetmaker> nml only helpy you to _write_ a newgrf
23:08:39  <AveiMil> (€/#"&/€/!!
23:08:45  <AveiMil> lol ok
23:08:57  <AveiMil> I want to take this GRF, and EDIT it to my liking.
23:09:05  <AveiMil> How'd do I go about doing that? hehe
23:09:07  <planetmaker> then you can only go the hard way
23:09:17  <planetmaker>
23:09:28  <planetmaker> general variables
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23:12:14  <AveiMil> holy shit
23:13:30  <AveiMil> yeah, okey, I'm not doing that. Lets say instead I want to create a NewGRF that does only one simple thing, changes the multiplier for 24
23:13:30  <AveiMil> 18
23:13:30  <AveiMil> 	4BC4	200	clear rocks
23:13:46  <AveiMil> now, would that be a breeze to do with nml?
23:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> about two lines
23:17:39  <AveiMil> Feel like walking me through it? I tried reading , but without any frame of reference I feel lost.
23:17:55  <xiong> Autoreplace does not work for wagons.
23:18:08  <Qantourisc> autoreplace wagons ?
23:18:11  <Qantourisc> do they ever change ?
23:18:38  <xiong> Qantourisc, I now have a second, improved pax wagon available. I'm playing with NARS.
23:19:07  <xiong> For that matter, all the wagons seem to have improved versions come up in 1900.
23:19:22  <planetmaker> <-- AveiMil
23:20:06  <Qantourisc> how does one upgrade to monrail ? :)
23:20:20  <xiong> The "Gondola", for instance, is still available; but there is also now a "40' Gondola". It has significant improvements all around.
23:20:55  <xiong> I cannot see any way to exchange wagons without driving the train into a depot, selling off the old, and buying new.
23:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: as far as autoreplace goes. you caan't. except there's a trick called "universal engine"
23:21:17  <AveiMil> planetmaker, ty
23:21:34  <xiong> Perhaps it's just as well, since the new wagons are longer than the old, so I might have to adjust consist.
23:21:34  <planetmaker> good night for now
23:22:16  <AveiMil> good night
23:23:03  <Qantourisc> Eddi|zuHause: how about sending EVERYTHING to the depos ?
23:23:16  <Qantourisc> upgrade track, and autoreplace engines ?
23:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: yes, but you can't autoreplace between incompatible railtypes
23:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: that's where the universal engine comes into play
23:24:06  <Qantourisc> i see
23:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you replace everything to the universal engine, and then everything to monorail
23:29:42  <AveiMil> Ok, I'm going to figure this nml thing out tomorrow
23:29:45  <Qantourisc> night all
23:29:49  <AveiMil> dosent' look too hard
23:30:18  <AveiMil> though I'm good at making easy things harder
23:30:45  <AveiMil> good nigth and thanks for everyone's help
23:30:48  <AveiMil> you been great
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