Log for #openttd on 8th November 2010:
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05:03:42  <kdub> i have a joint shipping/train station, and the train is set to "transfer and leave empty". my ships don't take any cargo though, how do i get them to?
05:05:13  <kdub> so the train shows up, and does a transfer, some money appears, and the ships just wait at 0%
05:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> have you checked if it is refit to the correct cargo type?
05:07:34  <kdub> hmm, i havent done anything like that
05:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably the problem then ;)
05:08:24  <kdub> it is a cargo ship, i havent seen anything on the wiki about refitting it
05:09:47  <kdub> ah, there we go, lets see if this works...
05:10:04  <kdub> yay, thanks Eddi|zuHause
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08:06:37  <Terkhen> good morning
08:07:32  <avdg> good morning
08:09:34  <planetmaker> moin
08:10:38  <xiong> Good morning, good morning!
08:11:06  <xiong> Show of hands: Does anyone play this game who does not have an extensive computer programming background?
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08:19:56  <xiong> No hands. I guess that's all of us. It's only what I expected.
08:20:39  <planetmaker> you should also ask the reverse question ;-)
08:21:25  <xiong> I could; but where would I ask it? "Are there any computer programmers who do not play OpenTTD?"
08:21:48  <xiong> I could ask on PerlMonks, I guess.
08:21:49  <__ln__> background programming of a computer extensive does not have this game who plays anyone does?
08:22:21  <xiong> Only a hacker would say that, __ln__. You are busted.
08:24:08  <planetmaker> the reverse question here would of course be "Does anyone play this game who has an extensive computer programming background"
08:24:18  <planetmaker> and you ask it in the same place(s).
08:24:23  <xiong> I went to work today, spent the first 6 hours planning a huge transfer station in my head and on paper, and quit early. As soon as I put the finishing touches on the small, local, two-city station with a mere 17 tracks, each 6 platform tiles, I start leveling for the transfer.
08:24:30  <planetmaker> or your conclusions are biased by your questions
08:25:00  <xiong> planetmaker, That's not the reverse question; that's the inverse. Testing the theorem also tests the inverse.
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08:25:42  <xiong> That's probably BS but frankly, I'm not going to strangle a cat with it.
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08:26:01  <Noldo> sample size!
08:26:41  <xiong> I *am* going to build a transfer station with 18 tracks, each 8 platforms -- on the trunk side -- and two blocks of 8 tracks, 6 platforms each for the local side.
08:27:29  <xiong> I figure, based on games played so far, that the key factor in station size is the number of trains waiting to load industrial cargo.
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08:32:50  <xiong> Hm. The signals-in-tunnels patch is... not in trunk?
08:35:03  <avdg> hmm, should it belong in the trunk?
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08:36:15  <xiong> avdg, Sorry. I'm a baroque kinda guy. I like everything on my hot dog, except of course mustard.
08:36:49  <avdg> :p
08:37:31  <xiong> Although I have always loathed Micro$oft, I used Word 5.1 for many years, simply because it had a built-in little graphics editor, within which was... a tiny text editor.
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08:41:26  <planetmaker> [09:25]	<xiong>	planetmaker, That's not the reverse question; that's the inverse. Testing the theorem also tests the inverse.  <-- you apply the wrong methods. Social sciences have a long history of fallacies which are a result from the assumption you express here
08:41:54  <planetmaker> the assumption you express only applies to binary logic in (natural) sciences
08:42:17  <xiong> Oh, it's worse than that. So much worse, I wouldn't know where to start.
08:42:55  <xiong> Small sample size, sample bias, failure to respond, and the nasty question of how many of us are eating french fries right this very minute.
08:43:54  <planetmaker> sample size of 0 maybe?
08:43:58  <xiong> I still think everyone who plays this game (for some value of "everyone") has a computer engineering background, probably in software, very likely advanced.
08:44:29  * planetmaker ponders and wonders
08:44:38  <xiong> Eh? You read the question. You have been sampled. So Noldo and __ln__.
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08:44:40  * planetmaker looks at my CV
08:44:56  <planetmaker> xiong: reading your question doesn't mean I'll answer it ;-)
08:45:11  <Terkhen> ieugh
08:45:19  <xiong> Failure to respond to survey. There's a reason why I'm not in the social sciences.
08:45:58  <planetmaker> thus you're in error if you take 'no answer' as a unique answer
08:46:34  <dih> :-P
08:46:35  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I think he asks these questions this way just to troll us
08:46:44  <xiong> Signals-in-tunnels is an important feature. Prototype railroads signal in tunnels routinely.
08:46:45  <planetmaker> probably
08:46:46  * dih pondered that too
08:46:55  <Terkhen> so it's probably better to not add fuel to the fire
08:47:04  <xiong> Terkhen, That's not nice. I'd like to know.
08:47:11  <planetmaker> Terkhen: I still don't find anywher computer sciences even remotely in my CV? Am I a bad guy now?
08:47:20  <dih> Terkhen, not adding fuel or rather extinguish it?
08:47:22  <Terkhen> :O
08:47:27  <xiong> I didn't place any moral value on it, man.
08:47:43  <Terkhen> planetmaker: why are you on this channel then?
08:47:48  <xiong> It's an extremely complex game. I'll take that as a "no", though.
08:47:49  <planetmaker> l wonder ;-)
08:48:09  <Terkhen> :P
08:48:13  <dih> i know how the fire could be put out ^^
08:48:25  <xiong> I'm curious: What are your specialties, planetmaker?
08:48:32  <planetmaker> <<---
08:49:01  <xiong> Although, you know, I have to say that if you've done all the OTTD development I think you have, you are now an experienced computer programmer, whether you had that background when you came in or not.
08:49:36  <xiong> I don't limit experience to resume stuff -- or, as you folks across the pond say, CV.
08:49:42  <planetmaker> I guess I taught myself image processing and I could put that on my CV...
08:50:05  * avdg hates CV's :p
08:50:15  <xiong> avdg++
08:50:36  <avdg> it screwed up my entire life
08:50:43  <planetmaker> ;-)
08:50:59  <planetmaker> you're totlaly screwed, avdg - you're in this channel!
08:51:15  <avdg> ./part not anymore :p
08:51:37  <planetmaker> sex, drugs and OpenTTD?
08:51:46  <norbert79> lol
08:51:57  <avdg> hmm, the radio
08:52:00  <avdg> thats a good idea :)
08:52:17  <norbert79> Just imagined: "Hey sweety, make me a new rail network, and I will go bed with you"
08:52:25  <Terkhen> lol
08:52:29  <planetmaker> llol
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08:53:29  <avdg1> <3 cablemanagement *has a desktop full of wires*
08:53:30  * Rubidium wonders whether Belugas' son is has done any computer science related studies
08:55:57  <planetmaker> :-)
08:56:23  <planetmaker> or (m)any of those guys who roam the German forums...
08:57:20  <Terkhen> anyone who checks the forums (or even better, flyspray) would have never asked that question
08:57:23  <xiong> Okay, looking for the experienced answer: Why, on clear track -- no junctions of any kind -- would I want to space out my signals? Why not signal every tile?
08:58:34  <xiong> Terkhen, There is always an amateur fringe. What a terribly worded question! I guess I should abandon my efforts to obtain an anthropology master's.
08:58:52  <xiong> I'd rather talk trains.
08:59:58  <xiong> I see a lot of the shots here and there have signals set every 2 tiles. I don't know why this should be a magic number. At first, I signaled every N tiles, where N is the length of my trains. But this wastes track, dynamically. So, why not every tile?
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09:00:26  <TrueBrain> go for it! :)
09:00:31  <planetmaker> equation of continuity ;-)
09:01:11  <xiong> Naturally, past a junction, I want to leave unsignaled N tiles. But leading up to a junction, I don't see the merit in spacing them out. Nor do I see much informed discussion of the topic.
09:01:13  <Terkhen> my point is that doing a survey in a subset of the population will give you biased results
09:02:01  <Terkhen> about the signals... I'm not very good with trains, but in my experience signals spaced every two tiles are usually enough and they cost half
09:02:18  <xiong> So, it's just a money thing?
09:02:30  <planetmaker> keeping a spacing of a signal every tile is difficult for junctions ;-)
09:02:34  <xiong> Or possibly, for some, a thing about the way it looks.
09:02:49  <xiong> planetmaker, I said that.
09:03:04  <Terkhen> also, a space between tiles makes it easier to connect new railways to your line
09:03:20  <xiong> Yah. You don't have to remove an existing signal.
09:04:18  <xiong> This ties into my desire to see signals-in-tunnels. See, here is a tunnel; unsignalled of course. A little further on, a junction, signaled before the junction, of course, and unsignaled for N tiles afterward.
09:04:24  <planetmaker> a chain is only as strong as its weakest link
09:04:30  <planetmaker> strength here is signal distance
09:04:35  <TrueBrain> also, one has to consider the time it takes to get up to speed vs many signals
09:04:46  <planetmaker> As such there's no point to use anywhere a signal distance smaller than your largest gap
09:04:57  <xiong> So, naturally, I want to put a signal immediately after the tunnel exit. This might be right before the next signal, just before the junction.
09:06:25  <xiong> I realize this will not have a large effect on throughput vs leaving the tile empty at the tunnel exit. But the early signal will be cleared a little earlier and let another train into the tunnel just a bit sooner, which may allow something else to get moving upstream, and so on.
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09:08:24  <xiong> planetmaker, I think you and I are saying the same thing. If I have a stretch of track with a tunnel in it, then the tunnel is the weak link -- or the choke point. The longer the tunnel, the worse the choke. Not signaling right at tunnel entry and exit means, effectively, a longer tunnel -- a longer unsignaled track. No?
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09:09:48  <xiong> The point is, perhaps, not so much to signal closely on completely clear track; but to signal closely near obstructions: tunnels and junctions.
09:09:59  <xiong> If I'm wrong about this, I'd like to know it.
09:10:14  <xiong> I don't pretend to have any real experience. I'm only theorizing.
09:10:53  <planetmaker> [10:10]	<xiong>	I don't pretend to have any real experience. I'm only theorizing.  <-- I say, that's your main problem
09:10:57  <planetmaker> with many things
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09:11:50  <norbert79> brb
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09:20:22  <xiong> What? How can that be a problem? No, don't answer that. This is trains, not scientific method. If you have a problem with people thinking, well, sorry. I'm not going to fool with it.
09:21:03  <xiong> It might be nice if you said something in support, or against, any of my half-assed theories. That would be information, which I can use.
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09:21:26  <xiong> But you needn't feel compelled and I'm sorry if you take it that way.
09:23:05  <TrueBrain> I think you should play more, and ask less. As that is the game :)
09:23:48  <TrueBrain> everyone has his own style, there is no wrong or right. There only is playing :)
09:24:48  <avdg1> there is, the personal right style :)
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09:46:42  * avdg wonders where the bug is in fs4212
09:47:07  <Rubidium> IMO in Windows
09:47:32  <TrueBrain> on the bugtracker
09:47:37  <TrueBrain> hiihihihihihihihhiih :D
09:47:48  <planetmaker> evil you ;-)
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09:51:28  <planetmaker> --without-cocoa-quartz --without-cocoa-quickdraw was not a good choice of options ;-)
09:52:33  * avdg can only wish to learn the c++ api's
09:52:44  <planetmaker> go for it ;-)
09:54:10  <TrueBrain> well, with only wishing you won' get there. I suggest doing. But that is just me :D :)
09:54:14  <TrueBrain> owh, enough with the bad jokes ...
09:54:25  <avdg> yeah, doing exercises :p
09:54:30  <avdg> I'm reading too much :p
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10:00:22  <planetmaker> x86_64 withut cocoa-quartz was also a bad idea ;-)
10:02:59  * Terkhen wonders how to fight procrastination
10:03:10  <planetmaker> a cookie, if not?
10:04:02  <Terkhen> I already tried having cookies with breakfast; I still prefer to procrastinate over working
10:04:04  <Rubidium> Terkhen: by fixing any of the unsolved bugs?
10:04:31  <planetmaker> :-)
10:04:52  <Rubidium> possibly filter 'OSX' out first and then starting at the bottom
10:04:54  <planetmaker> There might be a *slight* disagreement on the definition of 'procrastinate'? ;-)
10:05:31  <Terkhen> Rubidium: great, now I'll procrastinate while I look at the list :P
10:05:44  <planetmaker> :-D
10:05:53  <avdg> now the great question:
10:05:57  <avdg> what does work? :)
10:05:59  <Rubidium> 42
10:06:05  <Terkhen> ^
10:06:28  <Rubidium> hmm, or is #openttd.42 already down?
10:09:47  <planetmaker> the channel police is still there
10:10:42  <planetmaker> what purpose did that channel ever server?
10:11:38  <Terkhen> there are many pathfinder bugs... maybe it's time to learn how the pathfinder code works
10:11:47  <Terkhen> but honestly, it scares me :P
10:13:01  <planetmaker> you know what scares me? ;-)
10:13:04  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the old bot was called 42 IIRC
10:13:42  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I think I do... but I said scared, not terrified
10:13:56  <planetmaker> :-)
10:13:59  <Rubidium> 2007-03-06T22:00:57  <_42_> Flyspray: [FS#666] Bug Report changed: field 'task_severity': 'Low' -> 'Medium' by Miham
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10:33:15  <dih> Rubidium, would it make sense to keep admin connections open after issuing the command 'part' ?
10:33:30  <dih> ... if they are not already :-S
10:39:21  <planetmaker> <-- xiong Ammler is merely telling you "you can treat your townnames as if they are 100% your own work, you don't need to heed any licenses, con choose whatever suits you"
10:39:38  <planetmaker> s/con/can/
10:40:24  <planetmaker> (and yes, he knows Fred, even in person)
10:41:43  <norbert79> xiong: But if you stick on having a license, use GPL version 2
10:41:48  <norbert79> thats the easiest
10:42:17  <planetmaker> @ports
10:42:17  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
10:44:36  <xiong> Do you see where it says I'm not going to discuss this further, absent new information? I meant that. Please, drop it.
10:44:47  <Rubidium> dih: not really I reckon
10:45:12  <planetmaker> difference between LAN and internet server is the announcement to the masterserver only, right?
10:45:22  <Rubidium> hai
10:45:28  <planetmaker> thanks :-)
10:48:14  <dih> Rubidium, the reason i ask is that if i enter 'part' on the console, the game ends but openttd dedicated console is still active, i can change settings and then run 'newgame'
10:49:09  <dih> and that could be an interesting thing for anything connected to that socket
10:49:27  <Ammler> xiong: just release your town names grf ;-)
10:50:18  <planetmaker> salut Ammler
10:50:27  <xiong> Ammler, I'm not in the habit of writing without forethought. I meant every single word I wrote, no more, no less. I've already addressed your remark, before you even made it.
10:50:46  <Ammler> good morning all :-)
10:50:49  <Terkhen> hi Ammler
10:52:01  <xiong> What many people fail to understand about me is that I think very carefully before I say anything serious. Unless you have new information to offer me, I cannot be persuaded by any amount of rhetoric, repetition, or threat to change my mind -- not on any subject. I am only susceptible to reason. I'm sorry; I realize this infuriates many people. But that's how I'm constructed.
10:52:53  <xiong> On the bright side, I'm extremely willing to reverse myself on a dime, given that new information. I've been wrong all my life; I can be wrong again very easily.
10:52:58  <planetmaker> your lack of understanding makes reasoning futile
10:53:00  <Terkhen> whatever
10:53:16  <xiong> I'm sorry; what is there to understand?
10:53:32  <planetmaker> how copyright works
10:53:41  <norbert79> Just read in the news: The engine failure of the Airbus 380 Quants plane was caused by an oil-leak in the engine. The source of the problem is under investigation, all current Airbus380 planes are on hold for Qantas.
10:53:46  <xiong> Oh, that's not a lack of understanding. That's a lack of interest.
10:54:07  <norbert79> xiong: Well, interested or not, thats an issue, which noone can avoid :)
10:54:29  <Terkhen> :D
10:54:30  <Ammler> that's not true, if you wouldn't be interested in, you would just use the license you get told to use.
10:54:31  <xiong> I consider the entire matter of "intellectual property" to be a fool's errand. That said, yes, it's an issue I can't entirely avoid.
10:54:55  <xiong> Ammler, If you have read my post then you would see I have answered that issue. Very clearly.
10:54:58  <norbert79> Ammler: Which could also cause some troubles for him later on, but thats something which I don't want to go into details about :)
10:55:07  <planetmaker> norbert79: it's one possibility... Lufthansa claims to not have seen that at their engines...
10:55:21  <norbert79> planetmaker: Yeah, I also vote for maintanence issues
10:55:24  <Ammler> xiong: yes, which tells me, that you are very interested in the license topic, maybe too much :-)
10:55:30  <norbert79> planetmaker: Wouldn't be the first time at Qantas
10:55:54  <xiong> No; rather, I'm hostile to it, personally. I don't want to have anything to do with it, at all, not in any way, shape or form.
10:55:59  <planetmaker> norbert79: maintenance issues? Hm... They're one of the very few without fatal incidents in their whole history
10:56:03  <planetmaker> which is rare
10:56:24  <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, not having lost any planes and having ongoing maintanence issues are two different things :)
10:56:49  <planetmaker> true for sure ;-)
10:57:09  <Ammler> norbert79: also gpl isn't the easiest license, imo, that is rather CC-whatever, as you don't need to supply sources then.
10:57:11  <planetmaker> but it tells at least that in the past maintenance has been thorough enough to avoid fatal mishaps ;-)
10:57:14  <xiong> And now, you've all tried again to persuade my without introducing new information. Please, spare yourself the frustration. I'm a blockhead.
10:57:35  <norbert79> Ammler: I still prefer it, besides in case of GRF's, the GRF is the source itself...
10:57:44  <norbert79> Ammler: But you are partly right
10:57:46  <Ammler> it is best :-)
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10:58:15  <planetmaker> Ammler: the (newer) CDDL is not bad either and makes cooperation easier
10:58:34  <Terkhen> xiong: if that is the case, why bother about releasing your work?
10:58:40  <planetmaker> you may pick pieces, keep the CDDL for that and apply your favourite one for the whole project, the one which you chose
10:58:54  <norbert79> planetmaker: Indeed, but I just think they used some other spare part replacing something in their planes... Just think on the British Airways accident, where the pilot got almost sucked out fully from a Boeing, because the maintanenr has replaced the bolts of the cockpit's front panels with almost similar bolts
10:59:18  <planetmaker> never heart of that. Sounds scary
10:59:33  <norbert79> planetmaker: It's just a hunch... But having the same issue for all planes? Must be maintanence... Let me google that for ya :)
10:59:51  <norbert79> planetmaker: Pilot survived! :)
10:59:54  <xiong> Terkhen, Please stop. Or go on, if you merely want to have the last word. You may, at your option, read my post, which will answer all your questions, I sincerely believe.
10:59:59  <Ammler> xiong: the only info important from me, you got already
11:00:21  <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, it was a BAC
11:00:24  <norbert79> planetmaker:
11:00:27  <Ammler> no need for credits and reusing my license
11:00:35  <planetmaker> norbert79: can be a design / construction issue of the engine as well. I read that maintenance is done by Rolls Royce anyway
11:00:57  <norbert79> planetmaker: No, the Airbus is built with two types of engines, one is Rolls Royce only
11:01:09  <xiong> Another thing that may clarify things for you all is that I cannot detect most rhetorical questions. If you are making a statement and you address it to me with a question mark at the end, I think I'm being asked to answer, although I know that quite often, people do not mean to ask, merely to state. Sorry; this is a blind spot of mine.
11:01:17  <planetmaker> yes. But only Rolls Royce engines have that problem, norbert79 ;-)
11:01:18  <norbert79> planetmaker: I mean there are two versions of the plane
11:01:24  <xiong> Ammler, You presented new information, so I replied.
11:01:27  <norbert79> planetmaker: Crap, I rest my case :D
11:01:47  <planetmaker> yes, two engine manufacturers, I know :-)
11:01:49  <Ammler> xiong: and what holds you back from release now?
11:02:06  <planetmaker> Ammler: obviously "no new information" :-P
11:02:08  <xiong> Ammler, Have I truly been unclear?
11:02:27  <xiong> Or are you asking a rhetorical question?
11:02:37  <Ammler> well, you told something to send me your source and I should make the release?
11:02:53  <xiong> You read my reply. It stands.
11:03:39  <Terkhen> xiong: that's my point... why raise the topic again if you don't want to discuss it further?
11:03:49  <norbert79> planetmaker: Ohoohohh... Found the NGC channels episode of the BA 5390 accident:
11:04:27  <xiong> Terkhen, I did not raise the topic again.
11:04:27  <xiong> Read the thread.
11:05:08  <xiong> Why don't you guys just try moving on? You are frustrated, I am frustrated. I'm really a fairly decent guy but you are pushing in the wrong place. I will be happy to come over to your house and do your dishes, even if you have burned gummy crud on the bottom of your pots. I like to be helpful when I can.
11:05:24  <norbert79> xiong: Hehh... Yeah, when you are raising a big thread, you are upset, when you don't get ansewers, when others start a thread partially behalf of your issues, you are upset, because you are involved... :) Clever...
11:05:29  <planetmaker> wth, norbert79 ?! that's... 'amazing' is the wrong word
11:05:54  <Terkhen> xiong: I see a new post from you, which motivated an answer here
11:06:01  <norbert79> planetmaker: Amazing in the term that the pilot survived without any serious injuries
11:06:42  <xiong> norbert79, No, that's not right. I wrote the thread for reasons I stated in the thread itself. I'm upset because I can't put the issue to rest. I have not seen this "other thread"; you might be kind enough to point it out to me.
11:07:28  <dih> what thread are you guys on about?
11:07:33  <planetmaker> xiong: you have all means and all liberty to put it to a rest you like ever since Ammler answered you there. So maybe heed your own words and spoken desire to lest the 'issue' rest, ok?
11:07:36  <xiong> Dear gods, from the littleun down to the big fat one on the end!
11:07:39  <dih> ah
11:07:41  <norbert79> xiong: Other thread: Everything else you started talking about :D Anyway, sorry dude, either you stick to the license of CC or CDDL or GPL2, otherwise US regulations apply and you get ongoing requests on relicensing.. Your choice :)
11:08:10  <norbert79> xiong: Whatever fits you :)
11:08:45  <xiong> planetmaker, Ammler posted. In my reply, I think I made it clear why I *had* to reply. I'd have been happy if nobody had said a word.
11:09:03  <xiong> What is the point of this discussion?
11:09:23  <norbert79> Oh, how many tiomes have we been asking this question :)
11:09:36  <dih> hey fred - you are soooo mean :-P
11:09:43  <Terkhen> yes, we agree on something
11:09:50  <Terkhen> let's drop the issue right now completely :)
11:09:55  * dih wonders if pm even has a highlight for that name :-D
11:10:01  <norbert79> lol
11:10:06  <xiong> I tell all you guys, clearly: I did not start this convo here on IRC tonight. Don't blame me for it.
11:10:09  <dih> Terkhen, close the threads? :-P
11:10:19  <xiong> Terkhen++
11:10:35  * dih blames fred - after all he does attract this kind of stuff :-P
11:10:45  <Terkhen> dih: ignoring it and further pointless discussions here should be enough
11:11:00  <xiong> Thank you.
11:11:11  <xiong> Now, I will go back to my trains.
11:11:45  <xiong> If I can persuade the Harrisburg local authority to let me build the damn platforms. I've already invested a million bucks in track, tunnels, and signals.
11:11:58  <Noldo> so there is a threah to flame somewhere?
11:12:09  <Ammler> just don't blame others, if you don't want release something then
11:12:21  <planetmaker> [12:10]	<dih>	Terkhen, close the threads? :-P <-- I guess I'll do that...
11:12:29  <norbert79> Thats what the Fat controller said to Thomas the engine.. He ended up in the asylum too
11:12:40  <norbert79> (going back to his trains)
11:13:23  <norbert79> TFT "And you Percy go straight ahead, and pick up those coals..." Nurse: "Doctor, he is doing it again..."
11:14:11  * norbert79 is a destroyer of childhood illusions...
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11:48:59  <planetmaker> norbert79: that video on the BA incident looks interesting. I shall watch it tonight
11:50:07  <norbert79> planetmaker: I am happy, that I could share this with you... :) My most investigated, "favorite" accident was the JAL123 in 1985...
11:50:31  <norbert79> planetmaker: There is also a flash animation about the accident including original sound tapes
11:50:53  <planetmaker> where? ;-)
11:51:00  <norbert79> planetmaker: Moment :)
11:51:04  <planetmaker> or you mean JAL123?
11:51:15  <planetmaker> then google video has it as the fingertips
11:51:23  <norbert79> planetmaker:
11:53:12  <planetmaker> ah, yes, I recall that from the news
11:54:19  <norbert79> Most terrible one, and the most honoured one
12:16:16  <dih> BA incident?
12:23:17  <planetmaker> read a bit back for the link
12:27:38  <dih> there is a series called 'air crash investigation' on youtube, they also go through that flight
12:27:52  <dih> very good documentry
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12:28:56  <planetmaker> yes ;-)
12:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if you watch too many of these, you'll never want to fly again :p
12:38:59  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not that afraid ;-)
12:39:31  <planetmaker> I've been flying within a plane only allowed to take-off on special permit for each take-off ;-)
12:39:47  <planetmaker> not once, not twice, but a dozen times ;-)
12:40:54  <planetmaker>,a300,presentation.html <-- A300, model #3 ;-)
12:41:24  <planetmaker> but it has a hand-picked service crew - but no one else anymore has the qualification ;-)
12:41:45  <planetmaker> and, granted, it's flown by french military test pilot trainer as commander ;-)
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12:43:54  <Rubidium> that sounds annoying when you need to make a go-around after the wheels have hit the tarmac
12:49:15  <Rubidium> even then, media have a strange way of covering incidents; a small plane crashing here with a few dead is big news, whereas a car crashing into a tree killing a few doesn't even show up on the local news
12:50:41  <SirSquidness> planetmaker: I am envious of your plane flying escapades (although, only if you're talking about the exact plane featured in that picture, not just a plane of the same model)
12:51:07  <planetmaker> I mean that exact one, yes
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14:13:25  <Belugas> hello
14:15:12  <Belugas> [03:53] * Rubidium wonders whether Belugas' son is has done any computer science related studies  <-- unless he has done it behind my back, unless it involves car racing game, no, i really doubt that :)
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14:17:33  <planetmaker> a completely realistic 'hello' to Belugas :-)
14:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas is back to the right time, it seems ;)
14:19:35  <Belugas> looks like it indeed :)
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14:20:06  * Belugas shivers at realism when looking at all that realism related stuff on his desk...
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14:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't suppose "init 1" is a sensible thing to do from an ssh console :p
14:41:03  <planetmaker> depends on the startup-scripts at runlevel 1 and its crontab
14:48:05  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: does it work? :-P
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14:53:56  <Chris_Booth> I love playing openttd in 1704 with sailing ships
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14:54:44  * peter1138 tries to remember the last time he properly played a game
14:56:28  <Rubidium> 1995-ish?
14:56:41  <peter1138> probably :p
14:56:58  * norbert79 just got addicted to SWAT 4... Harder than thought...
14:57:10  <peter1138> well, i meant a game of openttd
14:57:20  <norbert79> Oh... Well, me, I played it last week
14:57:23  <norbert79> Single
14:57:45  <norbert79> not much just as few hours during night
14:59:09  <Chris_Booth> I only wanted to look at the sailing ships
14:59:16  <Chris_Booth> and now have a nice network of canals
14:59:47  <norbert79> lol
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17:46:19  <Belugas> "To make OpenTTD more realistic, I think there should be an option which allows you to sell used vehicles to other companies."
17:46:23  <Belugas> COME ON!!!!
17:46:39  <Belugas> this is and incredible STUPID argument!!!
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17:47:06  <Belugas> yeah, the game will be so freakingly realistic!!! YOU SEEL YOUR VEHICLL!!!
17:47:22  <Belugas> man, i'm going to be hooked to life tio the game this way!
17:47:28  <Belugas> grrrrr....
17:47:29  <AveiMil> Is there documentaiton on the inflation mechanic in OpenTTD? All I can find is:
17:47:43  <glx> it's random
17:47:46  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: when in doubt source code :/
17:47:52  <Belugas> the Sources, my young apprentice, the Sources!
17:47:54  <AveiMil> I don't know how to read the source code.
17:48:04  <Belugas> can you read english?
17:48:10  <AveiMil> Barely
17:48:14  <Qantourisc> :)
17:48:22  <Belugas> obviously :D
17:48:30  <Prof_Frink> Belugas should be more realistic.
17:48:59  <Qantourisc> I'm translating: "Waiting: Nothing"
17:49:01  <Belugas> o... it's coming from Prof_Frink... no need to argue about realism :D
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17:49:19  <Belugas> he's as much a loon as i can be ;)
17:49:20  <AveiMil> realism must take second place to gameplay
17:49:27  <Belugas> third..
17:49:28  <AveiMil> or 3rd
17:49:29  <Belugas> fourth...
17:49:30  <AveiMil> or 4th
17:49:30  <AveiMil> :D
17:49:42  <Belugas> or... none?
17:49:52  <Qantourisc> Now there are 2 ways i can translate it: "Waiting: nill" or "Waiting: nothing to be transported"
17:50:41  <Belugas> but seriously, no, there is nothing very specal (not as realistic acceleration anyway) about inflation
17:50:47  <Belugas> it just goes up and down
17:50:59  <Belugas> randomly, as glx mentionned
17:51:24  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: maybe there is something _specific_ you wish to know about it ?
17:51:26  <Belugas> economic cycle is not really of an interest, anyway
17:51:56  <AveiMil> Qantourisc, well for one if it has any effect on gameplay otehr than make all the numbers bigger over time...
17:52:11  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: yes
17:52:27  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: it makes you loose money if you cannot keep up with the inflation
17:52:31  <Belugas> it  make  the  game  more   realistic
17:52:47  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: also yesterday they mentioned that costs inflate faster, as a result, making everything more expensive to do
17:52:50  <AveiMil> Inflation generally increases income too
17:53:05  <AveiMil> so I'm wondering if it increases expenses more than incom...
17:53:09  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: yes, but if your investment return is smaller due to it
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17:53:50  <frosch123> AveiMil: expenses increase one percent point more than expenses
17:54:01  <frosch123> *than income :s
17:54:10  <Qantourisc> frosch123: is there way to turn this up ?
17:54:19  <Qantourisc> frosch123: later in the game money roles in :D
17:54:48  <Qantourisc> No comments on how i should translate "Waiting: nothing" ?
17:54:53  <AveiMil> I'm trying to balance the game via my NewGRF so I need to take inflation into account
17:54:58  <AveiMil> makes it much more complicated
17:55:10  <frosch123> Qantourisc: get the source, edit StartupEconomy(), compile, and play
17:55:22  <Qantourisc> frosch123: what ?
17:55:35  <Qantourisc> frosch123: wrong answer :)
17:55:41  <Qantourisc> frosch123: i know how to edit it
17:55:50  <Belugas> no, only possible answer other than : i'll do it for you
17:56:09  <Qantourisc> Belugas: regarding my question ?
17:56:18  <Qantourisc> Belugas: or regadrings AveiMil's ?
17:56:44  <Belugas> ho... frosch123 answered to AveiMil while naming you...
17:57:00  <Qantourisc> Belugas: aaa :)
17:57:16  <Qantourisc> frosch123: sorry frosch123
17:57:17  <Belugas> bad frosch123.. get a coffee you sportster
17:57:32  <frosch123> now, you confused me
17:57:35  <Qantourisc> to think of it
17:57:42  <AveiMil> If that was a answer to me, I don't get it.
17:57:46  <Qantourisc> I think i'll translate it as "Waiting: nill"
17:58:46  * frosch123 grips on "coffee"
18:00:01  <AveiMil> can someone figure out for me how much in % purcahse costs go up over the course of 100 years in the game?
18:00:07  <AveiMil> due to inflation
18:00:21  <frosch123> @calc 1.02 ** 100
18:00:22  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 7.24464611825
18:00:26  <frosch123> @calc 1.05 ** 100
18:00:26  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 131.501257846
18:00:47  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: 1 worth: math :)
18:00:48  <AveiMil> inflation rate is 5%?
18:00:59  <Qantourisc> *word
18:01:01  <frosch123> AveiMil: you can configure between 2 and 5
18:01:20  <Qantourisc> frosch123: i'll change mine to 5% then :D
18:01:35  <AveiMil> where? advanced settings show on or off
18:01:39  <frosch123> Qantourisc: i thought you wanted to make it harder?
18:01:44  <Qantourisc> frosch123: yes :)
18:01:54  <frosch123> Qantourisc: but low inflation is harder
18:01:58  <Qantourisc> frosch123: ow ?
18:02:01  <SmatZ> AveiMil: in difficulty settings
18:02:08  <frosch123> due to the one percent point difference of income and expenses
18:02:09  <Qantourisc> frosch123: i'm confused ?
18:02:17  <Qantourisc> frosch123: aaa :)
18:02:39  <AveiMil> there's no inflation option in difficulty here
18:02:43  <frosch123> 1% on income with 2% on expenses vs. 4% on income and 5% on expenses
18:02:45  <AveiMil> unless it's directly linked to intrrest rates
18:03:10  <frosch123> yes, it is
18:03:29  <Qantourisc> Ok i'm going to ask the channel a general question to prevent all further questions from me:
18:03:31  <frosch123> banks do not earn anything :p
18:03:42  <Qantourisc> Should I translate the exact meaning, or what it should be ?
18:03:57  <AveiMil> so inflation rate is intrest rate + 1?
18:04:05  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: no
18:04:16  <AveiMil> it only goes up to 4
18:04:17  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: the inflation of the COST is +1
18:04:19  <AveiMil> so what's thsi 2-5
18:04:27  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: maybe he made a mistake ?
18:04:43  <AveiMil> Unforgivable
18:04:44  <AveiMil> :)
18:05:07  <frosch123> is it 2-4? maybe :)
18:05:15  <frosch123> iirc tto was up to 6 or so
18:05:31  <AveiMil> @calc 1.04 ** 100
18:05:31  <DorpsGek> AveiMil: 50.5049481843
18:05:55  <SmatZ> 	_economy.interest_rate = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest;
18:05:56  <SmatZ> 	_economy.infl_amount = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest;
18:05:57  <AveiMil> the cost of a 10K car in OpenTTD will be 50K after 100 years then eh?
18:05:58  <SmatZ> 	_economy.infl_amount_pr = max(0, _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest - 1);
18:06:01  <frosch123> @calc 1.02 ** 100 / 1.01 ** 100
18:06:01  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2.67842689927
18:06:04  <SmatZ> so yes, it's linked to interest rate :)
18:06:06  <frosch123> @calc 1.04 ** 100 / 1.03 ** 100
18:06:06  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2.62791588052
18:06:19  <frosch123> ok, no big deal :)
18:06:34  <Qantourisc> frosch123: so i should pick more inflaction then :D
18:07:04  <Belugas> some users of some countries might argue that these rates are not realistic...
18:07:28  <SmatZ> :)
18:07:31  <Qantourisc> Belugas: you just said it yourself
18:07:38  <Qantourisc> "SOME countries"
18:07:54  <Qantourisc> indicating it's relastic in others, meaning it's realastic
18:08:47  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
18:09:05  <frosch123> Qantourisc: i hope you are not from around montreal
18:09:12  <dih> LOL#
18:09:19  *** Joni_ [] has joined #openttd
18:09:24  <dih> else you are in for a spanking from the daddy :-P
18:09:25  <Qantourisc> frosch123: hmmm ?
18:09:53  <Qantourisc> Hell in the past there have been intrests of 10% !
18:11:07  <Rubidium> 10%? That's closer to the lover limit
18:11:24  <frosch123> there were also -6% :p
18:12:34  <frosch123> what's the "lovel limit"? the amount of money which survives a shoe shop?
18:13:01  * Rubidium guesses he isn't awake yet
18:13:11  <frosch123> hmm, typos on quoting typos ...
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18:13:58  <SmatZ> :)
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18:14:32  <AveiMil> When you start a new game at for instance 1970, it factors in the inflation rate you would have had if you had started at 1950 and played to 1970?
18:14:55  <AveiMil> Dosen't look like it
18:14:59  <SmatZ> no
18:15:28  <AveiMil> any console command to to that? :P
18:15:34  <SmatZ> no
18:15:41  <frosch123> that's why it is increasing hard to play with dbset in later startyears :p
18:23:56  <AveiMil> dbset?
18:24:59  <frosch123> some ancient cruft
18:25:12  <frosch123> :p
18:25:33  <frosch123> a train newgrf from 2005 in the spirit of duke nukem
18:25:41  <SmatZ> :)
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18:30:33  <AveiMil> are you high?
18:33:55  <SmatZ> what, who?
18:34:12  <frosch123> on coffee?
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18:39:40  <SmatZ> @seen xiong
18:39:40  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: xiong was last seen in #openttd 7 hours, 27 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <xiong> If I can persuade the Harrisburg local authority to let me build the damn platforms. I've already invested a million bucks in track, tunnels, and signals.
18:39:47  * Rubidium is high on dihydrogenmonooxide and some other stuff like urea, chloride, sodium, etc
18:40:02  <SmatZ> we should certainly ban those drugs!
18:40:43  *** DustSpinner [] has joined #openttd
18:40:43  <glx> dihydrogenmonooxide <-- I call that water :)
18:40:53  <SmatZ> :)
18:41:03  <SmatZ> all people who use that drug die sooner or later
18:41:13  * Rubidium slaps glx for spoiling it for AveiMil
18:41:16  <SmatZ> and they die even sooner when they don't use it :p
18:41:31  <Prof_Frink> Or when they use too much of it.
18:41:47  * Belugas is high on apnea
18:42:00  <glx> Belugas: no, you're deep ;)
18:42:01  <SmatZ>
18:42:23  <planetmaker> :-)
18:42:38  <Belugas> lol
18:42:58  <Belugas> good one, glx, very good one!!
18:43:43  * Prof_Frink is high on ladders
18:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21117 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
18:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by marek995
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
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19:24:35  <__ln__>
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19:41:22  * Zuu wonders if it is a good sign that nobody yet has commented his last release of CluelessPlus
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19:41:48  <Zuu> but it has got 418 downloads, so at least someone has probably tested it.
19:42:55  *** ashb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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19:43:58  <Zuu> (it is just a bug-fix release but at least one of them seems to have been fairly critical)
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19:49:26  <SmatZ> Zuu: cluelessplus, the smileyAI? :)
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19:50:54  <SmatZ> Zuu: it seems to sometimes build dead stations
19:52:14  <SmatZ>
19:52:45  <SmatZ> looks better now
19:52:52  <SmatZ> the stations got destroyed :)
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20:00:08  *** saronpasu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:22  <__ln__> your screenshot is laughing at us!
20:05:40  *** Zuu [~Zuu@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:06:10  <SmatZ> :D
20:06:19  <Markk> __ln__: In Soviet Russia, the screenshot laughs at you!
20:06:25  <SmatZ> :)
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20:20:13  <Zuu> SmatZ: Are you sure that "0 I11 :D" is not from a connection under construction?
20:20:19  <Zuu> (sorry, I got a phone call)
20:21:26  <Zuu> or any of the other CluelessPlus stations around the power plant.
20:21:46  * andythenorth ponders slicing Sugar Refinery
20:21:52  <Zuu> Or did you talk about the yellow truck stop that next to green HQ?
20:22:43  <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:53  <andythenorth> with png, do I need to slice at all?
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20:26:49  <SmatZ> Zuu: it probably was, later the station got removed
20:27:01  <SmatZ> oen station got removed and other got connected :)
20:27:16  <Zuu> Good
20:27:16  <SmatZ> they were just unconnected for quite long time, so I thought they are forgotten somehow
20:29:23  <Zuu> Could be the road pathfinder that took long time to figure out that no path could be found. It tries from one end for X number of iterations and then from the other end for Y number of interations. X is quite small while Y is really the limit of how long time it will pathfind.
20:30:26  <Zuu> By setting X to zero you would minimize the time it takes to find a path if there is a path. The size of X depends how large islands that can be detected without trying *any* route to the island.
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20:40:03  <Belugas> #we're on the road to nowhere
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20:46:20  <andythenorth> Belugas: or the road to hell :P
20:47:00  * andythenorth wonders when we're driving home for christmas?
20:47:39  <planetmaker> I'd suspect about 17h after Church for the children
20:50:33  <Belugas> #HIGHWAY TO HELL
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20:57:35  * Zuu hopes the highway is congested so that the ride takes longer time. :-)
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21:00:41  <Belugas> #Riders On The Storm
21:03:39  * Rubidium opens the doors to good music :)
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21:22:55  <Belugas> lol
21:22:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r21118 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Name and deduplicate some magic numbers.
21:23:09  <Belugas> quite good music indeed :D
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21:26:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r21119 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Helicopter flight altitude was determined inconsistently in different places.
21:28:37  <AveiMil> Can you change introduction date via NewGRF?
21:29:04  <Belugas> of a vehicle?  yes
21:29:16  <Belugas> of a house? yes
21:29:25  <AveiMil> introduction_date I guess
21:29:33  <Belugas> intro date of what?
21:29:37  <AveiMil> aircraft
21:29:43  <Belugas> yes you can indeed
21:29:58  <AveiMil> introduction_date: 1976;?
21:30:02  <AveiMil> just like that?
21:30:16  <Belugas> to ways:
21:30:21  <Belugas> two ways:
21:30:22  <Belugas>
21:30:33  <frosch123> Belugas: AveiMil uses nml :)
21:30:52  <Belugas>
21:30:54  <Belugas> ho...
21:30:56  <Belugas> welll
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21:31:09  <Belugas> sorry and forget about my presence :)
21:31:10  <frosch123> AveiMil: introduction_date:              date(1925,1,1);
21:31:34  <AveiMil> thank you
21:31:39  <frosch123> (copied from ogfx-trains)
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21:34:11  <frosch123> Belugas: our days of plain nfo are counted :) the younger guys take over with something better
21:34:17  <frosch123> i also need to learn nml now :)
21:34:25  <Belugas> hehhe
21:34:31  <Belugas> makes that two :)
21:34:40  <AveiMil> is nml something developed FOR OpenTTD?
21:34:46  <AveiMil> or is it something that's used for other things?
21:35:14  * andythenorth feels old
21:35:19  <andythenorth> stuck with this nfo thing :P
21:35:29  <frosch123> AveiMil: there is also effort to make ttdp suitable for it
21:35:53  <frosch123> or the other way around :p
21:36:01  <AveiMil> ttdp?
21:36:16  <Belugas> hehehhe
21:36:25  <Belugas> youger guys indeed :)
21:36:29  <Rubidium> shinkansen!
21:36:32  <Belugas> TTD Patch
21:36:36  <Belugas> the other project
21:37:05  <AveiMil> I see, I thought that was "pre" OpenTTD
21:37:06  <frosch123> AveiMil:
21:37:13  <Belugas> so if you see ottd, that's us, if you see ttdp, it's them, if you see ottdp, it's everyone!
21:37:25  * frosch123 enjoys linking to ottd wiki about ttdp :p
21:38:02  <AveiMil> so ttdp is just a patch for the original, basically
21:38:14  <AveiMil> or mod, wahtever you call it
21:38:20  <frosch123> depends no the definition of 'just'
21:38:33  <AveiMil> meaning you need the original game
21:38:38  <frosch123> yes
21:39:15  <AveiMil> can't imagine ttdp being anywhere near as populare as openttd
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21:42:22  <Rubidium> the servers running the * domains get (combined) more traffic than the server running the * domain
21:42:23  <Belugas> "just"  hehehe
21:43:00  <Belugas> it's quite an incredible patch, in fact.
21:44:32  <AveiMil> I'm sure it is, dind't mean it like that.
21:45:04  <AveiMil> odd, OpenTTD needs to advertsie :D
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21:45:54  <Rubidium> word of mouth seems to work quite well
21:46:39  <AveiMil> I found it by chance, randomly thought of the game I played as a 12 year old and googled transport tycoon
21:46:41  <Belugas> advertise is done with UDP
21:46:43  <AveiMil> and found a blog post
21:46:46  <Belugas> buwhahaha
21:46:53  <AveiMil> I was confused as hell
21:47:02  <AveiMil> as to wheter or not I needed original game graphics with OpenTTD
21:47:10  <AveiMil> or if it was the full game or what
21:48:17  <AveiMil> are and of you game devs/aspiring game devs?
21:48:21  <AveiMil> *any
21:48:30  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:49:07  <glx> before 1.0.0 original was needed
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21:49:39  <Zuu> AveiMil: Many of those who have spoken recently are OpenTTD developers
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21:50:26  <Zuu> As OpenTTD is a game, you could probably call them game developers if you wish.
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21:51:20  <AveiMil> Let me rephrase, paid developers.
21:51:29  <AveiMil> Full time job thing.
21:51:57  <Zuu> At least one of them are, but not for _game_ development.
21:52:10  <glx> Zuu: I count 2
21:52:43  <Zuu> Also, you could include more than just programmers in 'developers'.
21:53:39  <Rubidium> does working on frameworks used in (some) game development count as "game developer"?
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21:55:42  <AveiMil> not really
21:55:42  <AveiMil> :)
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21:55:57  * andythenorth has been a game developer
21:56:01  <andythenorth> and is not any more
21:56:10  <AveiMil> cool, who did you work for and what games did you work on?
21:56:35  <andythenorth> flash games
21:56:47  <AveiMil> ah
21:56:53  <AveiMil> was that fun?
21:57:03  <andythenorth> for a while
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21:59:35  <AveiMil> the viechles speed/cost etc, where the stats pulled from the original?
21:59:42  <Terkhen> yes
22:00:02  <AveiMil> what where they thinking when they balanced the aircraft stats?!
22:00:02  <AveiMil> hehe
22:00:53  <glx> aircraft are meant to be 4 times slower than other vehicles
22:01:45  <AveiMil> I was more thinking about the various aircraft compared to the other aircrafts
22:01:52  <Belugas> i'm paid to play a cool game of cards
22:01:57  <Belugas> hem...
22:02:03  <AveiMil> you play poker?
22:02:05  <Belugas> program a cool game of cards
22:02:08  <Zuu> Belugas:  ^^
22:02:20  <Belugas> no, not quite poker :)
22:02:33  <Belugas> my cards have exotic names, like...
22:02:35  <Belugas> visa
22:02:36  <AveiMil> so not a professional poker player then
22:02:38  <Belugas> mastercard
22:02:42  <AveiMil> ah :D
22:02:44  <glx> amex
22:02:50  <Belugas> :)
22:02:53  <AveiMil> program transaction code thingymagik?
22:02:56  <Prof_Frink> tesco clubcard
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22:02:59  *** George|2 is now known as George
22:03:22  <Belugas> quite :)
22:04:23  <AveiMil> I'm an application installation packager, if OpenTTD needs someone to make .msi installer files for OpenTTD I'd be happy to help
22:05:00  <Zuu> There is a compile farm that does that work IIRC.
22:05:21  <glx> we have exe installer for now, and it's enough
22:05:23  <Zuu> Maybe not for nightlies, but for stables.
22:05:59  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:06:30  <Zuu> For nightlies there is
22:07:00  <Zuu> *
22:08:51  *** Guest241 [~George@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:09:09  * frosch123 counts three 'professional' developers in the team
22:10:26  *** avdg1 is now known as avdg
22:10:39  <Belugas> mh... i count 4
22:11:08  <frosch123> good that we know each other so well :)
22:11:11  <Belugas> peter1138, frosch123, Alberth and I
22:11:26  <Belugas> am i right?
22:11:28  <glx> orudge too
22:11:34  <glx> IIRC
22:11:51  <Rubidium> nah, crossover development isn't software development :)
22:12:01  <SmatZ> Rubi isn't a professional (yet)?
22:12:19  <Rubidium> SmatZ: exactly
22:12:23  <__ln__> how do you define 'professional' anyway
22:12:27  <Rubidium> + :(
22:12:30  <SmatZ> __ln__: what you do for linig
22:12:33  <SmatZ> *living
22:12:35  <SmatZ> :(
22:12:39  <frosch123> __ln__: 'paid', not to confuse with 'good'
22:12:43  <SmatZ> :-D
22:12:49  <AveiMil> is a hobo a professional
22:12:49  <AveiMil> ?
22:13:29  <SmatZ> "A hobo is a migratory worker or homeless vagabond, often penniless." hmm
22:13:39  <AveiMil> lol
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22:15:24  <Rubidium> there's even an annual hobo convention, so it must have some degree of professionalism
22:16:02  <SmatZ> :-)
22:16:07  <Belugas> yeah, paid =professional. Does not mean good, just paid :)
22:17:19  <__ln__> "did nothing the whole day, still got paid" = professional
22:17:25  <SmatZ> :D
22:17:37  * Belugas is not a professional, in this case...
22:17:58  <SmatZ> :)
22:18:02  <AveiMil> you do nothing and don't even get paid?
22:18:39  * andythenorth wonders what he would be defined as
22:18:48  <glx> Belugas doesn't compile in his head, he's not a real dev ;)
22:18:56  <Rubidium> andythenorth: a maccie?
22:19:35  <AveiMil> Are Mac users allowed in here?
22:19:35  <Belugas> glx, you know me so well :D
22:19:36  <AveiMil> :)
22:19:44  * avdg hides
22:19:56  <glx> AveiMil: we'd prefer Mac devs
22:20:03  <glx> users are useless
22:20:08  <SmatZ> :P
22:20:10  <SmatZ> nah
22:20:13  <glx> they can't fix bugs
22:20:17  <SmatZ> we love OpenTTD users :)
22:20:26  <SmatZ> without users, our work would be useless :)
22:20:38  <Rubidium> glx: lies... they report bugs to make the statistics of the badness of the Mac OS X port more overwhelming
22:20:40  <frosch123> but less annoying :p
22:20:48  <SmatZ> :)
22:20:52  * andythenorth doesn't report OS X bugs
22:21:05  * andythenorth reports newgrf requests
22:21:13  <andythenorth> chuck norris reports OS X bugs
22:21:37  <avdg> ^ is it that bad? :p
22:21:38  <glx> last one is nice but I don't know if planetmaker reported it
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22:21:58  <SmatZ> glx: yeah, it looks very broken for no apparent reason
22:22:03  <andythenorth> avdg: works ok for me
22:22:16  <Rubidium> <- I guess he did :)
22:22:19  <glx> SmatZ: it's OSX, no need for a reason
22:22:25  <SmatZ> :P
22:22:56  <__ln__> glx: are you Rubidium's alter ego?
22:23:00  <avdg> its just software, its made to produce an output and not errors :p
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22:23:42  <glx> __ln__: no, but at least something working on win9x usually still works on win7
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22:23:55  <glx> and that's clearly not true on OSX
22:24:06  <SmatZ> errors ∈ output
22:25:03  <__ln__> glx: that's also a burden, they cannot ever deprecate anything.
22:25:05  <SmatZ> or better, errors ⊂ output
22:26:01  * andythenorth ships a Sugar Refinery
22:26:04  <frosch123> luckily we can deprecate osx :p
22:26:08  <SmatZ> :)
22:26:20  * andythenorth deprecates seld
22:26:22  <andythenorth> self /s
22:26:56  <frosch123> yeah, nfo developers are also deprecated :p
22:27:06  * andythenorth deprecates being awake
22:27:08  <SmatZ> :)
22:27:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> <- I guess he did :) <-- that looks... interesting...
22:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> like an obiwan in 2D->1D array access translation
22:28:34  <Eddi|zuHause> during deciding which rectangle to redraw
22:28:35  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: but only for x86_64
22:28:50  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: it seems some ground sprites are not drawn, for some reason
22:28:54  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: except it follows the shape of the sprites
22:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so a bug in the spritecache access?
22:29:24  <SmatZ> there might be a valgrind for OSX...
22:30:58  <SmatZ> it could be some broken linking/whatever
22:31:32  * frosch123 also guesses for some compiler incompatibility
22:31:53  <frosch123> some signed/unsigned 32bit/64bit issue
22:32:37  <andythenorth> good night
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22:32:47  <SmatZ> it works fine under x86_64 linux / windows
22:33:38  <SmatZ> at least we can rule out endian issues :)
22:33:39  <glx> frosch123: I remember a nice signed/unsigned issue on windows :)
22:35:08  <glx> @commit 20722
22:35:12  <DorpsGek> glx: Commit by glx :: r20722 trunk/src/statusbar_gui.cpp (2010-09-03 12:52:09 UTC)
22:35:13  <DorpsGek> glx: -Fix (r20719): signed/unsigned side effect makes a small negative value become a big positive value
22:35:51  <frosch123> yeah, something like that :)
22:36:05  <SmatZ> :)
22:36:24  <SmatZ> pm uses gcc I think
22:36:35  <frosch123> apple gcc
22:36:38  <planetmaker> he does
22:36:44  <frosch123> (at least i expect)
22:36:53  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker :)
22:36:55  <frosch123> evening planetmaker
22:37:10  <planetmaker> self-compiled gcc goesn't compile openttd on OSX. Hello folks :-)
22:40:07  <Rubidium> even then Apple seems to be using llvm for their "latest" gcc
22:40:24  <planetmaker> yes. that works here, too
22:40:33  <SmatZ> clang/llvm almost compiles openttd nowadays :)
22:40:48  <planetmaker> almost ;-)
22:41:03  <planetmaker> default gcc also almost compiles openttd on osx :-P
22:41:16  <SmatZ> :D
22:41:32  <SmatZ> well, there's one bug I mentioned before you became a dev
22:41:44  <planetmaker> hm?
22:41:54  <SmatZ> there's one (mis)understanding of standard, where clang refuses to behave the same way as other compilers
22:42:07  <SmatZ> (I have to say I agree with the behaviour of clang)
22:42:19  <planetmaker> now I'm curious, what is it?
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22:43:17  <SmatZ> struct A { protected: static int i; }; struct B { friend struct C; }; struct C { C() { A::i = 0; } };
22:43:42  <SmatZ> if it compiles depends on whether definition of B is visible when compiling C::C()
22:44:19  <SmatZ> clang doesn't compile
22:44:20  <SmatZ> *it
22:44:31  <SmatZ> other compilers compile it only when definition of B is visible
22:44:31  <frosch123> doesn't that lack some " : B"?
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22:44:50  <SmatZ> frosch123: I think it's fine as it is, but I might be wrong :)
22:44:53  <planetmaker> hm...
22:44:54  <SmatZ> actually...
22:44:59  <SmatZ> struct B : A { friend struct C; };
22:45:08  <SmatZ> is was missing a ": A"
22:45:16  <frosch123> right, that way :)
22:45:40  <SmatZ> :-)
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22:49:24  <frosch123> night
22:49:28  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:50:57  <Rubidium> night frosch et al.
22:51:03  <planetmaker> circular dependencies... can be trip-wires, I guess
22:51:47  <SmatZ> good night, Rubidium
22:52:14  <planetmaker> good night Rubidium
22:52:23  <planetmaker> and actually, good night SmatZ and others, too :-)
22:53:07  <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker :)
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22:55:22  <Terkhen> good night everybody
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22:56:34  <SmatZ> good night, Terkhen :)
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23:44:42  <AveiMil> Anyone around?
23:45:48  *** dfox [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:46:07  <SmatZ> kind of
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23:47:54  <AveiMil> Just finnished going through all the aircraft and balancing them as best I could relative to the other aircraft. Needs practical testing of course but it's a start. Looking for anyone willing to load up a game and look through the list to see if it makes sense/has problems. Can download here:
23:49:33  <SmatZ> I am not really a newgrf guy
23:49:51  <SmatZ> though, whoever will review your grf, will prefer to see the nfo/nml instead
23:52:00  <AveiMil> much easier to see the changes in the ingame GUI
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23:52:30  <SmatZ> ok :)
23:54:45  <AveiMil> it's the aircraft stats I want a second opinion on
23:54:49  <AveiMil> not the newgrf code
23:55:23  <AveiMil> :)
23:56:24  <SmatZ> I have no clue about aircraft
23:56:31  <SmatZ> Belugas likes planes :)
23:59:17  <AveiMil> Bellluuugaaas!!
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