Log for #openttd on 20th November 2010:
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00:23:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21262 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp:
00:23:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r18708)[FS#4246]: Custom station foundations using the 'simple
00:23:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: foundations'-method did not draw any sprite for WSE-slopes when there are
00:23:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: foundations on both neighboured tiles in the north. As there must be at least
00:23:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: one sprite to provide the correct offset for the groundsprite draw the (empty)
00:24:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: default foundation sprite in that case.
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00:56:34  <Eddi|zuHause>  <Zuu> jpcooper: As far as I've been informed, in Germany they have only capability to run trains on the "right" track, but not on the wrong one in case of unbalance in the network. <-- that heavily depends on the route. some routes are specially refit to handle "wrong way" traffic.
00:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's generally very expensive to refit a line (switches, catenary, etc.) to bi-directional traffic in high speed
00:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> for low speed, "only" the signalling must be adapted.
00:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "overtaking" usually happens while one train is standing.
00:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly at stations.
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04:11:59  <supermop> hello
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04:35:12  <SmatZ> evening/morning
04:36:44  <supermop> good evening
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07:05:01  <planetmaker> moin
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08:03:02  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:09:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21263 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#3935]: under some circumstances two vehicles could leave a non-drive through road stop at once
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09:43:59  <Alberth> you'd say one time entering the channel is sufficient
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11:01:36  <fjb> Moin
11:03:05  <planetmaker> hi fjb
11:03:21  <fjb> Hi planetmaker
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11:45:03  <planetmaker> <-- popcorn out! :-P
11:45:37  <ccfreak2k> I'll be honest.
11:45:42  <ccfreak2k> Sometimes a diagonal road would be nice.
11:45:54  <ccfreak2k> Wouldn't mesh well with 3x3 cities, though.
11:47:05  <planetmaker> Given the thread, I find noteworthy especially the statement "I'm not too concerned about proportion"
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11:48:03  <frosch123> does someone have the c't magazine?
11:48:06  <IchGuckLive> Hi from sunny Germany
11:48:09  <planetmaker> I do, frosch123
11:48:13  <ccfreak2k> Yeah, it's a hijack post.
11:48:21  <IchGuckLive> i crashed 2 mag trains
11:48:27  <ccfreak2k> "Sorry about not being on topic at all, buuuut..."
11:48:28  <planetmaker> And yes, I checked it out :-)
11:48:38  <IchGuckLive> how long do i have to wait to use them again ?
11:48:38  <frosch123> does "prominently featuered" mean an article? or just on the cd?
11:48:57  <planetmaker> They write a few words on every programme on the CD
11:48:58  <ccfreak2k> 2 months?
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11:49:17  <IchGuckLive> i cant build any signals on this track
11:49:29  <frosch123> ok, prissis' note sounded like "more"
11:49:37  <frosch123> in which case i would have bought it :)
11:49:40  <Terkhen> IchGuckLive: you have to wait until the maglev trains dissapear from the track
11:50:16  <IchGuckLive> since a lon time there is no train on the track
11:50:32  <IchGuckLive> cant convert the signal here ...
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11:51:38  <planetmaker> frosch123: it's about 1/6 of a page
11:52:19  <Alberth> ccfreak2k: he hijacked hos own topic :)
11:52:27  <IchGuckLive> what are thise waypoints for on the mag reiltrack
11:52:35  <Rubidium> s/he/she/;s/hos/her/
11:52:42  <frosch123> planetmaker: so, nothing you would pin over your bed :p
11:52:42  <Rubidium> after all, it's Fred's wife
11:52:43  <ccfreak2k> Oh, I thought it was a different poster.
11:53:26  <planetmaker> frosch123: too small for that and without picture, yes :-(
11:53:42  <planetmaker> It's also indicated as "OSX version available from their website" ;-)
11:54:02  <planetmaker> they only packed the windows version on the CD
11:55:29  <Alberth> IchGuckLive: you have waypoints for every type of track, they are used for steering trains to some specific track. See also
11:57:49  <Ammler> heise removed the "OSX-logo" from the download section
11:58:36  <IchGuckLive> Alberth: thanks but i can not put any signal on the track after the train crashed
11:59:39  <Alberth> just wait until the fire brigade has cleared the mess :)
11:59:46  <Rubidium> so they didn't even follow our request of letting us see the "article" before press, so we could point out any errors
12:02:48  <IchGuckLive> no way to get any signal on the Track
12:09:48  <Alberth> we probably need a picture or a save game to help you with that
12:10:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21264 /trunk/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Change: compress some PNGs more efficiently
12:10:31  <IchGuckLive> that is so desepointing i need signals to run 2 trains on  a track but i cand builld signals  even on a new tracksegment
12:12:46  <lugo> IchGuckLive, can you make a screenshot and upload it to or the like
12:13:16  <Alberth> IchGuckLive: did you try  ?
12:14:37  <IchGuckLive> i wil  but does it make sence a svreenshot
12:15:22  <IchGuckLive> i can build  rails to the track fit trains on it but i can not build any signals
12:15:54  <IchGuckLive> i try to build one normal railway now just to lolok if this works
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12:17:47  <Wolf01> hello
12:18:07  <IchGuckLive> no also now signal to a conventional raltrack i saved now the game
12:18:16  <IchGuckLive> shot down and restart  it
12:20:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21265 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4245]: Don't setup target industry type counts if there are no industry types available.
12:20:49  <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: none of your last 5 sentences are even remotely correct on both accounts grammar and spelling and due to that their meaning can be guessed only by creative readers
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12:21:30  <Alberth> also, without further information, we cannot help you
12:21:58  <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: sorry for my bad english
12:22:02  <ccfreak2k> As far as I can tell he placed non-electric rails, placed at least one signal, saved and restarted.
12:22:14  <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: Game is running now as it shoudt i restarted it
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12:51:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21266 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Change: don't receive money for removing the rail of non-rail railstation tiles, i.e. rail station tiles for which the NewGRF has prevented trains to be routed
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13:06:56  <IchGuckLive> so i do not understand the function of a waypoint can i advice it ,to put a train on a platform or does the AI  this
13:08:29  <IchGuckLive> by the way my first large game gives me a 40bil loan no cheets involved
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13:10:20  <IchGuckLive> shoudt i upgrade the old trains to a mag ? or only to electric ?
13:12:10  <lugo> it is for you to find out what works best :p  - if you have the money, why not upgrade...
13:12:42  <IchGuckLive> ok
13:12:52  <IchGuckLive> By for today
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13:13:17  <Alberth> grr, I was writing a reponse for him :(
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13:32:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21267 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Typo fixes.
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13:56:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21268 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21266): crash (or rather a triggered assertion) in some cases
14:04:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21269 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Codechange: Add TILE_SEQ_CHILD macro to construct child sprites in default stations sprite layouts.
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14:14:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21270 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Doxyment updates and additions. Removal of doxyment in code.
14:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21266 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Change: don't receive money for removing the rail of non-rail railstation tiles, i.e. rail station tiles for which the NewGRF has prevented trains to be routed <- so now one can cheat money by deactivating the grf? or is the non-trackness meanwhile stored in the map array [which would imho be a good thing]
14:34:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21271 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp:
14:34:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: use the last red instead of last red exit penalty for making sure other
14:34:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: waypoint entries are evaluated as well when they are occupied, e.g. when there
14:34:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: are no signals before the waypoint but a train just beyond the waypoint is
14:34:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: stopped (like for stations)
14:34:52  * frosch123 would like to see the cheater who constanly activates and deactivates grfs to get some money
14:35:16  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you can do it more effectivle with a basecost grf
14:35:31  * Rubidium would like to see cheaters being able to change NewGRFs while the server is running
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14:44:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21272 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Change [FS#119-ish]: Draw airport fences as groundsprites on runway/taxiway tiles. This makes the usual foundation-glitch a lot less likely to happen.
14:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> :o
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14:52:59  <frosch123> there were no multiple-groundsprites in 2007/2008 :p
14:53:19  <xiong> I seem to be stumped on a very basic thing. I have a depot with an entry and an exit track. I cannot figure out how to signal trains in the depot to stay in the depot until the exit track is clear (up to some safe stopping point). Whatever I do, the train in the depot tries to back out onto the entry track until it hits a signal; then it reverses and repeats.
14:53:57  <frosch123> xiong: depots have implicit entry-signals resp. path signals
14:54:03  <planetmaker> I just wonder though... fences as ground sprites... they overlap the airport
14:54:10  <frosch123> so just put no additional signal in front of the depot
14:54:20  <xiong> frosch123, Um, "resp."?
14:54:22  <frosch123> planetmaker: hardly
14:54:31  <frosch123> respectively
14:54:32  <planetmaker> depends upon the fence ;-)
14:54:55  <xiong> I understand that depots have builtin entry presignals. I don't understand how path signals fit into that.
14:54:55  <frosch123> ok, actually we can revert the change for fences on the north end
14:55:43  <frosch123> xiong: fine, then ignore that part
14:55:59  <frosch123> either you use block signals, or path signals
14:56:08  <xiong> I'd rather understand that part, frosch123.
14:56:22  <frosch123> any mixures are licensed to #coop exclusively
14:57:17  <xiong> I have a path signal on the entry track -- in fact, several. I have a path signal on the exit track, well down the line, plenty of safe waiting. I have a second train stopped in that clear space, blocking the exit track. The train in the depot keeps trying the entry track.
14:58:15  <planetmaker> wtf is that: "Installation on volumes which support to distinguish cases is not supported. Please chose a volume which doesn't distinguish cases"
14:58:20  <planetmaker> bloody photoshop
14:58:46  <xiong> I put a waypoint on the exit track and ordered the train to go through the waypoint on its way out. This changed nothing; the train in the depot continues to charge the entry track, hoping for a way to get to the waypoint.
14:59:34  <xiong> Are you saying that, globally, I can never use presignals and path signals on the same map??
14:59:58  <frosch123> no, within a junction
15:00:21  <xiong> Well, I'm not. It's all path signals, now. I tried a mix, which didn't work.
15:01:35  <xiong> Is some internal state set in the depot that makes it think it should act as a presignal? Must I demolish it and build again to get it to recognize its "path signal environment"?
15:01:49  <frosch123> no
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15:02:52  <xiong> Is the waypoint confusing things?
15:03:04  <Terkhen> "The vehicle names were changed in TTD to avoid trademark infringements, and OpenTTD retains the made-up names. They can, however, be changed back by setting "Original vehicle names (ENG)" for the language." <--- there was once a setting like this?
15:03:28  <planetmaker> he
15:03:42  <planetmaker> I doubt it's still present ;-)
15:03:54  <Terkhen> I have never heard of it until now
15:03:55  <xiong> No. Removing the waypoint changes nothing.
15:04:08  <Terkhen> I guess it's safe to remove this reference from the wiki :)
15:04:11  <planetmaker> but it sounds like a language selection rather than a setting
15:04:21  <planetmaker> certainly yes
15:04:43  <xiong> frosch123, I've used depots before, you know, and can't remember having this issue. What could be causing it?
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15:11:39  <xiong> It doesn't even seem to matter now that I have moved the blocking train off the track. With completely clear exit track to the next path signal -- and to the next three -- the train in the depot continues to try the entry track. Yes, there is track to the exit track; that's how I got the blocking train there.
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15:13:30  <Alberth> we need a picture
15:13:45  <Alberth> (or a save game)
15:16:44  <frosch123> Terkhen: it was removed in 0.7 and converted into a (static) newgrf on bananas
15:16:52  <xiong> Well, Alberth, I'm constantly changing the situation. Do you know of any sort of act or situation that might confuse things? I could test that. I was hoping that I might have done something obviously stupid, so obvious that you could say, "Did you..."
15:16:57  <frosch123> it's still called "original vehicle names"
15:17:20  <Terkhen> frosch123: thanks, I'll edit it to make reference to that GRF
15:18:00  <Alberth> xiong: except for missing electrified track pieces or signals placed in the wrong way, not really
15:18:06  <xiong> Alberth, I'm betting that it has to do with mixing presignals and path signals, together with a long route that really needs waypoints. I notice my trains often try to head out the entry track of a station if I don't waypoint the exit.
15:18:49  <Alberth> yeah each block should be entered with one type of signals only, unless you like train crashes and so
15:18:58  <xiong> I did have a presignal on the exit track and although it's gone now, I think some state may have lingered. I've re-waypointed and released both trains; I'll set up the situation when they come around again.
15:19:32  <Alberth> but perhaps the path finder thinks it is more smart than it really is
15:19:33  <xiong> Then, I'll post a savegame, if I can reproduce the situation.
15:20:16  <xiong> Well, I understand that, given presignals or any sort of block signals, if a train finds its way blocked, it might look for another way out. Path signals, the train will wait until clear.
15:20:43  <xiong> I don't see how depots "know" whether their internal signals should act as block or path.
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15:23:02  * planetmaker rather suspects layer8 error
15:23:24  <Alberth> oh, the game handles that automagically, depending on the signal types you use outside the depot
15:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> "The vehicle names were changed in TTD to avoid trademark infringements, and OpenTTD retains the made-up names. They can, however, be changed back by setting "Original vehicle names (ENG)" for the language." <--- there was once a setting like this? <-- i remember back when i installed the world editor, my brother was really upset about the "screwed up" vehicle names
15:24:05  <xiong> Um. Yes, Alberth, so I suspected. And if there's a mix? What if I build, then demolish, a signal?
15:24:21  <xiong> I now have a similar hangup at another station. I will save the game and post it.
15:25:05  <Terkhen> :)
15:25:51  <Terkhen> I'm so used to these names that they are the real names for me
15:25:57  <Alberth> isn't there a newgrf for setting the vehicle names back to their originals?
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15:26:58  <planetmaker> Alberth: [16:17]	<frosch123>	Terkhen: it was removed in 0.7 and converted into a (static) newgrf on bananas
15:27:15  <planetmaker> tripple highlight :-P
15:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> you haven't counted the people who have a highlight on newgrf or bananas :p
15:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> ... or something p
15:29:13  <planetmaker> who would that?
15:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know?
15:30:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sirkoz is your brother?
15:31:03  <Alberth> perhaps people have a highlight on the letter 'e' :p
15:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't think so :p
15:31:19  <Terkhen> :D
15:31:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the letter that is part of 98% of the words? :p
15:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> (number may vary depending on language)
15:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (in german it's probably higher than in english)
15:43:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21273 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Return values should start at the same line.
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15:48:09  <AveiMil> when I define the speed on items via NML
15:48:15  <AveiMil> can I write kmh or somehing as unit?
15:48:38  <Terkhen> you can use km/h
15:48:40  <AveiMil> km/h ya
15:48:56  <AveiMil> just sceptical about the "/"
15:50:01  <AveiMil> dosen't quite work though
15:50:02  <AveiMil> speed: 30 km/h ;
15:50:07  <AveiMil> that gives me in-game speed fo 28
15:50:13  <AveiMil> guess it's a rounding problem
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15:51:23  <frosch123> the speedunits have higher granularity
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15:51:31  <Terkhen> IIRC there is an open issue in the NML tracker about that
15:53:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21274 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Change: Increase the bounding box size of hangars in the hope it fixes more glitches than it causes.
15:54:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, but it's likely still a rounding issue, because if the granularity is 1.6km/h, then the values should be 32, 30.4, 28.8
15:54:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so it should rather be rounded to 30.4
15:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause> than 28.8
15:55:15  <Terkhen>
15:56:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21275 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Fix (r21272): Draw NW+SW fences in the correct order.
15:57:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the last time the raw value -> km/h conversion in openttd was changed, gave a huge outcry among grf authors and purists
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15:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> but the topic talks about road vehicles, which have different granularity afaik
16:00:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking trains
16:01:40  <frosch123> rv can choose between 0.5 and 2 km/h granularity
16:01:52  <frosch123> iirc
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16:03:22  <xiong> Okay, well, Alberth, I cannot now reproduce the situation. The thing at the other station was just a matter of the pathfinder getting confused; waypointing fixed it. When the trains came around again, I set up the same situation -- one train blocking the exit track from the depot but a few tiles down -- and the other train is sitting in the depot, waiting to leave, properly.
16:04:04  <xiong> Even putting the waypoint before the first signal on the exit track did not screw it up. I thought that might be an issue but it's just not.
16:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it always annoys me that so many vehicles end up having 59,69,99 etc. as max speed, instead of 60,70,100
16:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a very short period when it was like that...
16:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but that change got reverted
16:05:08  <xiong> I infer that some sort of state was retained when I deleted the exit presignal. That state was eventually cleared by the time the trains had run around the layout awhile.
16:05:42  <AveiMil> This in NML dosent appear to do anything:	PR_BUILD_CANAL
16:05:55  <AveiMil> Only changing PR_CLEAR_WATER  changes the cost it seems.
16:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: nightly or stable openttd?
16:06:18  <xiong> If the depot doesn't remember what signals it saw "before", then I have to think it is the train; although this was *not* fixed when the train returned to the depot. Perhaps the stopped train forced the state retention.
16:06:40  <AveiMil> 1.0.5
16:06:42  <AveiMil> 4
16:06:44  <AveiMil> stable
16:06:49  <Terkhen> AveiMil: PR_BUILD_CANAL is only available in nightlies with a revision greater than r19720
16:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: It might be that this was introduced fairly recently, so it's not in the stable, only in the nightly
16:07:03  <AveiMil> ah I see
16:07:03  <Terkhen> <--- you can check the exact revisions here
16:07:11  <xiong> If I'm going to work on reproducing the... weirdness, then I'm going to start with a clean map and try to do only that thing. Not today. Thanks for your help.
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16:09:08  <AveiMil> PR_BUILD_FOUNDATION, what does that do?  what foundation?
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16:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: it was introduced to separate building on slopes from the terraforming base cost
16:10:06  <planetmaker> foundations of paradise
16:10:34  <AveiMil> ah
16:10:56  <AveiMil> r18283, how do I know if the table 1.0.4 is newer or older than taht?
16:11:08  <AveiMil> *stable
16:11:59  <planetmaker>
16:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> @commit 19142
16:11:59  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r19142 branches/1.0/ (2010-02-15 23:59:46 UTC)
16:12:00  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: [1.0] -Branch: the 1.0 series
16:12:05  <Terkhen> checking the revision log
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16:42:11  <AveiMil> When I do this in NML:
16:42:12  <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, FruitPlantation)      { property { substitute: INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION; override: INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION; prod_multiplier_1: 13; } }
16:42:28  <AveiMil> The Fruit Plantation shows up on the map overview in Temperate climate
16:42:31  <AveiMil> how do I fix that?
16:43:15  <AveiMil> It does not show up on the actual map, just it's listed on the overview
16:44:28  <Terkhen> AveiMil: I think that you need to specify its ID too at item
16:44:52  <Terkhen> does it appear twice in subtropical?
16:44:58  <AveiMil> let me check
16:45:30  <AveiMil> nope, just the once
16:45:48  <AveiMil> but the other ones I cahnged, like Iron Ore Mine also shows in tropical
16:45:59  <Terkhen> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, FruitPlantation, INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION) <--- then I'm probably not right, but try this change to be sure
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16:46:27  <AveiMil> ok
16:46:44  <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 427: Unrecognized identifier 'INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION'
16:46:44  <AveiMil>  encountered
16:46:51  <AveiMil> it does not like taht
16:48:03  <AveiMil> I tried this:   item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, FruitPlantation, 19)      { property { substitute: INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION; override: INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION; prod_multiplier_1: 13; } }
16:48:08  <AveiMil> compiles fine but dosent make a difference
16:48:15  <AveiMil> I got the 19 from
16:48:22  <Terkhen> yes, I was going to suggest that
16:48:23  <AveiMil> and I assume 13h is hex, which is 19
16:48:37  <Terkhen> no idea of what might be happening then, sorry
16:48:54  <AveiMil> alright thanks
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16:55:21  <AveiMil> need one of the FIRS developers :)
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16:59:31  <Hirundo> AveiMil: What do you intend to do?
17:00:36  <AveiMil> Fix a "bug".
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17:00:45  <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, FruitPlantation)      { property { substitute: INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION; override: INDUSTRYTYPE_FRUIT_PLANTATION; prod_multiplier_1: 13; } }
17:00:48  <AveiMil> I've done that via NML
17:01:00  <AveiMil> And in the game, when you go to the map of the world and list industries in tempareate climate
17:01:31  <AveiMil> it shows fruit plantation there
17:01:57  <AveiMil> it never generates any fruit plantations in temperate climate, but it shows on the overview list
17:02:06  <AveiMil> same applies for Iron ore Mines when in tropical climate for instance
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17:04:46  <AveiMil> Hirundo, do you know anything about that?
17:06:05  <Hirundo> Possibly
17:06:27  <AveiMil> For example you can just goto Bananas and download AveiMil's PIGM 0.3
17:06:28  <Hirundo> But I can't really help you unless you tell me what you want to achieve, instead of what your current obstacle is
17:06:29  <AveiMil> it has the problem
17:06:39  <AveiMil> oh, guess I'm unclear
17:07:04  <AveiMil> I don't want fruit plantations to show up in the map of the world industry overview when playing in the temperate climate
17:08:06  <AveiMil> *afk for a bit
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17:08:32  <Hirundo> Fruit plantations never show up in the temperate climate for me, you shouln't need a grf for that
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17:10:18  <Hirundo> AveiMil: have you tried something like " if (climate == CLIMATE_TROPIC) { $code }"
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17:11:13  <AveiMil> Hirundo, no, it only shows up there with my NewGRF
17:11:23  <AveiMil> ok, I will try something like that
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17:23:37  <Samu> hi
17:27:12  <Samu> finger
17:27:20  <Samu> translator
17:27:26  <planetmaker> ...
17:27:31  <Terkhen> :D
17:27:40  <Samu> what
17:27:57  <Terkhen> *
17:28:16  <AveiMil> Hirundo, are the other properties CLIMATE_TEMPERATE and CLIMATE_ARCTIC?
17:28:22  <__ln___> Samu: please keep your phantasies to yourself
17:29:09  <Hirundo> AveiMil: Yes, you can refer to the documentation for that
17:29:24  <AveiMil> couldnt find it
17:29:35  <AveiMil> there's no easy way to search for details like taht :(
17:29:40  <AveiMil> (or none that I know abut)
17:29:44  <Hirundo> grep ?
17:31:32  <Hirundo> In this case, you might want to search for the global variable 'climate'
17:32:25  <AveiMil> where would you search?
17:38:56  <Alberth> in the table of contents?
17:39:45  <Alberth> or if you have the NML docs, grep all files
17:40:52  <AveiMil> what is grep
17:43:00  <AveiMil> the doc's are not included in the NML download I got
17:44:49  <Alberth>  is the directory, but pulling a clone with mercurial is much easier
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17:45:37  <Alberth> grep searches all lines of the given files, and outputs all lines that contain a given text
17:45:56  <Alberth> it is very good for a first hint of where to look more closely
17:46:24  <Alberth> Windows used to call it 'search' iirc
17:46:36  <Alberth> or 'find files' or so
17:50:05  <AveiMil> never heard about grep before but I get it
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17:51:02  <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 421: Syntax error, unexpected token "{"
17:51:04  <AveiMil> woot?
17:51:16  <AveiMil> line 421 If (climate == CLIMATE_TEMPERATE) {
17:51:36  <AveiMil> doh, if is case sensetive
17:52:09  <Alberth> :)
17:58:09  <glx> like in any sane language ;)
17:58:52  <planetmaker> you'll like NML then ;-)
17:59:58  <AveiMil> I like insanity
18:02:03  <Samu> why does no one join my game? Is it because I have placed AIs?
18:02:35  <Terkhen> Samu: most servers are empty, there are way more servers than players
18:03:02  <Samu> :(
18:03:28  <Samu> but I cheated the server listing
18:03:36  <Terkhen> really? how?
18:03:36  <Samu> it should appear on the top of the list
18:03:44  <planetmaker> congratulations
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18:04:32  <Terkhen> since most servers avid of players tend to do that, personally I would ignore all of the first servers just because of that
18:05:22  <planetmaker> :-)
18:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe servers shouldn't be sorted by name at all
18:05:39  <Samu> I added spaces
18:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> sort by IP, players and version
18:06:07  <Zuu> Sort them by uptime instead?
18:06:46  <Zuu> longest up-time first? (after first  having removed old OpenTTD versions)
18:07:34  <Zuu> hmm, still probably not good as there might be some start-and-forget servers that end up at the top.
18:08:29  <Eddi|zuHause> ip is a fairly unbiast, difficult to influence and fairly stable criterium
18:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> s/st/sed/
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18:09:16  <b_jonas> I'm ending the current game and starting a new one, so please recommend me newgrfs I should try
18:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, that makes it slightly more likely that servers from the same coutry are grouped/clustered together
18:09:57  <Zuu> b_jonas: Which ones did you already have?
18:10:00  <b_jonas> I'd like fun and not too restrictive ones
18:10:15  <b_jonas> Zuu: I was playing vanilla with only the base newgrf
18:10:19  <Zuu> Pikas industries?
18:10:29  <b_jonas> as I'm starting a new game, I can choose anything
18:10:39  <Zuu> They have some more industries but are not really complicated.
18:11:30  <Samu> play toyland
18:11:37  <b_jonas> I hate toyland
18:11:52  <b_jonas> what's this pikas industries? is there a link?
18:11:55  <Samu> ok, play arctic with original generator
18:12:26  <planetmaker> take the whole lot of Japanese NewGRFs
18:12:41  <b_jonas> all of japanese?
18:13:31  <planetmaker> And if you play in arctic, throw in the SwedishRails as well.
18:13:35  <Zuu> hmm, can't find pikkas industries on bananas. IIRC they were abbrivated as PBI.
18:14:06  <Zuu> You can probably find them in #openttdcoop GRF pack if they are not on bananas.
18:14:12  <Zuu> Or use the grf crawler.
18:14:42  <planetmaker> manual install is too much hassle ;-)
18:14:51  <planetmaker> what there is not on bananas does not exist :-P
18:15:04  <b_jonas> planetmaker: I can bear with manual install
18:15:14  <planetmaker> it's like everywhere on the internet:if it's not on google, it doesn't exist
18:15:37  <planetmaker> b_jonas: I also don't agree with PBI being the best possible extension :-)
18:15:43  <planetmaker> I rather recommend FIRS ;-)
18:15:46  <Zuu> "Pikka's Basic Industries v1.5" is what it is called in my NewGRF window and seeing from the path it is inded in the #openttdcoop grf pack.
18:15:49  <planetmaker> less restrictions, more fun
18:16:06  <Samu> I prefer original
18:16:15  <Zuu> Isn't PBI more like originals than FIRS?
18:16:18  <Terkhen> if you want to use a industry NewGRF, you will need vehicle GRFs to handle the new cargos
18:16:33  <planetmaker> Zuu: maybe from the type of industries. But not from their behaviour.
18:16:37  <planetmaker> Stockpiling sucks IMHO
18:16:41  <Zuu> Isn't it  ECS > FIRS > PBI when it comes to industries.
18:16:51  <Zuu> restrictions*
18:16:56  <planetmaker> no
18:17:01  <planetmaker> FIRS has basically no restrictions
18:17:09  <Terkhen> FIRS has supplies
18:17:18  <planetmaker> yes, but it's not really a restriction
18:17:35  <planetmaker> it's just a limit on the growth ;-)
18:18:10  <Zuu> IIRC PBI has only just a few extra industries and is thus more like 1.5 the old industries.
18:18:48  <Zuu> Compared to FIRS which is nice if you have an AI that takes care of finding out which industries that are compatible with which ones and uses the right cargo types. :-)
18:18:55  <planetmaker> the main problem for me with PBI is that e.g. the steel mill doesn't accept coal from more than three trains at once. And you need to ship an appropriate amount of ore there, too
18:19:00  <planetmaker> or it won't do a thing
18:19:39  <Alberth> Zuu: did I make the industry link window for nothing? :(
18:19:48  <b_jonas> planetmaker: sure, it should exist on the internet, and there should be at least some description of what the grf does, or I won't know what to choose. but whether it's on bananas or downloaded and installed easily from some website I don't care
18:19:51  * planetmaker hugs Alberth
18:20:03  <Zuu> Alberth:  Not for nothing, it is very nice and does helps.
18:20:32  <planetmaker> With that help FIRS is much easier
18:20:35  <planetmaker> it just has more cargos
18:20:54  <Zuu> But compared to the original industries which I know by heart, FIRS is a lot more having to lookup chains etc.
18:21:20  <Rubidium> is "nothing" Fred's sibling?
18:21:21  <Alberth> you didn't know the default industries either the first time :)
18:21:45  <Zuu> No, but that was like 10 years ago and is a forgotten moment :-)
18:22:06  <Alberth> nothing is the brother of someone, most likely
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18:22:52  <b_jonas> also, what trams?
18:22:59  <Zuu> Honestly I really like the industry graph - good job there Alberth! -  It is just that I seldome get aronud to play the game myself anymore.
18:23:13  <planetmaker> If you use Japanese... use the Hiroshima
18:23:22  <Samu> why did you add trams to the game?
18:23:39  <b_jonas> Samu: because they were in ttd only not fully working
18:24:09  <Samu> no way
18:24:10  <Alberth> Zuu: yeah that happens after some time
18:24:43  <Samu> what about giant airports, why add them?
18:25:07  <Zuu> Because the "large" airport is fairly limited :-)
18:25:11  <planetmaker> Samu: why play at all?
18:25:37  <Samu> air is imbalanced
18:25:40  <Alberth> b_jonas: they were added in 0.6
18:25:50  <Samu> yet you add larger airports
18:26:09  <planetmaker> we just want to annoy you
18:26:12  <b_jonas> Alberth: I meant what tram grf to use
18:26:17  <Zuu> Samu: You can turn them off if you don't like them.
18:26:18  <planetmaker> or maybe many people wanted larger airports
18:26:35  <b_jonas> either air's not unbalanced or I'm playing air wrong
18:26:43  <Zuu> Just set the station spread = the size of the largest airport you want to allow.
18:26:54  <Samu> ah... :(
18:26:56  <b_jonas> I keep getting much more profit from trains than from airports
18:26:58  <Terkhen> Samu: why do you want to play OpenTTD? play TTD instead
18:27:01  <planetmaker> +1 tile, Zuu :-)
18:27:14  <Zuu> Why +1?
18:27:16  <Samu> OpenTTD has multiplayer
18:27:28  <Samu> TTD doesn't
18:27:52  <Samu> that's my main reason
18:28:00  <Rubidium> TTD has multiplayer
18:28:06  <Rubidium> TTD has nothing that resembles trams
18:28:40  <Alberth> b_jonas: find 2 big towns, 256+ tiles apart, put airports as close to the center as possible, and push as many aircraft as you can without getting full holding queues in the air
18:29:02  <Alberth> each aircraft as many passengers as possible
18:29:09  <Terkhen> I remember trying to make multiplayer work in TTD without success
18:29:09  <planetmaker> Alberth: even better, if you abuse the station spread and split stations
18:29:16  <Samu> a game without online play these days is a dead game
18:29:23  <b_jonas> Alberth: on the other hand, large airports do help in collecting passengers for my trains
18:29:31  <Terkhen> the fact that I had no idea of what I was doing back then probably had much to do with my failure
18:30:01  <planetmaker> b_jonas: that's not a good argument for the airports. Just add a few disjoint station tiles
18:30:08  <Alberth> b_jonas: you can then also "abuse the station spread and split stations" :)
18:30:40  <Alberth> Samu: from marketing perspective sure, luckily we don't care about market share
18:30:43  <Zuu> And allow for town buildings <inside> your station.
18:31:01  <Terkhen> I think he meant TTD
18:31:06  <b_jonas> planetmaker: large airports have a larger catchment area so they collect passengers from farther from the station
18:31:18  <planetmaker> b_jonas: but that doesn't matter.
18:31:28  <b_jonas> why?
18:31:33  <Zuu> You can upgrade your catchment with a heliport.
18:31:34  <planetmaker> Just add two further station tiles to catch the same area
18:31:49  <planetmaker> That's a nice idea, Zuu :-)
18:31:53  <b_jonas> okay, I'll try that
18:32:28  <Samu> how do stop those cheaters, Alber
18:32:29  <Zuu> A dock will also work if there is water close enough.
18:33:10  <Samu> yesterday some guy built a piece of train station to enlarge his airport catchment area
18:33:20  <Samu> but the station wasn't even close to the airport
18:33:31  <Samu> the setting had it disabled, why didn't it work
18:33:38  <Zuu> You can turn of irregular stations.
18:33:51  <Zuu> You can set a lower station spread.
18:33:59  <Alberth> yep, you get that behaviour when you add a goal for winning
18:34:05  <Terkhen> he probably did a station walk
18:34:23  <b_jonas> and... I think I need some airports too
18:34:42  <planetmaker> ctrl+click when building stations for the win :-)
18:34:50  <Samu> also it's funny these cheaters say it's a feature
18:34:55  <AveiMil> PIGM 0.4 is out! ->
18:35:26  <Samu> they find all sort of reasons to make their lameness sound fair
18:35:26  <AveiMil> distant_join_stations = false helps prevent 'cheating'
18:35:39  <planetmaker> Samu: if it's allowed, it's not cheating
18:35:51  <planetmaker> don't do it, if you don't like it
18:35:53  <AveiMil> planetmaker, there's a lot of mechanic abuse you can do
18:35:56  <AveiMil> that's a form of cheating
18:35:56  <AveiMil> :(
18:36:06  <AveiMil> the game clearly never intended you to station walk
18:36:10  <planetmaker> Well, you can abuse some game mechanics
18:36:15  <AveiMil> and deliver cargo with 2 trucks 1 tile
18:36:18  <AveiMil> when the distance is 20 tiles
18:36:24  <Alberth> so make a rule against it, and kick/ban people that do it anyway
18:36:29  <planetmaker> ^
18:36:34  <AveiMil> that's what I do
18:36:39  <AveiMil> but it requires an admin
18:36:45  <planetmaker> of course
18:36:46  <AveiMil> would be good to find solutions to prevent it
18:36:54  <planetmaker> or diable distant join in the first place
18:37:10  <AveiMil> that helps
18:37:11  <planetmaker> make a small station spread like 12 and most of those issues are gone
18:37:17  <Alberth> AveiMil: doesn't matter, then they find some other gap
18:37:31  <b_jonas> can you recommend me airport grf too?
18:37:32  <Zuu> If you want to go to the extereme you can turn off irregular stations. :-)
18:37:33  <AveiMil> then you fix that gap as well :)
18:37:53  <Alberth> AveiMil: it is a myth to have a good openttd server without an admin
18:38:14  <Zuu> b_jonas: For nightlies/stable there are no grfs with new airports.
18:38:37  <Zuu> Only aircrafts and fake airport tiles.
18:39:53  <planetmaker> I can recommend airportsplus / climate dependent airports / OpenGFX+Airports. Dunno how it's called on bananas ;-)
18:40:02  <AveiMil> that's not a good argument for not trying to find ways to disable game mechanic abuse
18:40:02  <planetmaker> it makes at least for better looks
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18:40:15  <AveiMil> not saying it's easy or even doable in some cases for OpenTTD
18:40:36  <planetmaker> AveiMil: as you can limit that abuse by proper settings, I see no reason for any action
18:40:55  <b_jonas> Zuu: thanks
18:41:02  <AveiMil> yeah and for newcomers setting up a game, they won't know about it
18:41:09  <AveiMil> because there's an ocean of settings
18:41:20  <planetmaker> running a server is not for newcomers
18:41:22  <AveiMil> so might get frustrated and just leave
18:41:26  <Zuu> Eg. why do one need a larger station than 12x12 if you are not supposed to use dis joints over any longer distances?
18:41:32  <AveiMil> I ran a server for my 2nd game session
18:41:33  <AveiMil> hah
18:41:37  <planetmaker> Playing a game on your own: limit yourself to what you seem fit. No-one should complain there
18:42:08  <AveiMil> ya ya
18:42:32  <planetmaker> honestly: yes. Or why does it need changing?
18:42:58  <planetmaker> You can limit it for multiplayer. And playing on your own you can even limit yourself to what you seem fit. Where's the issue?
18:43:01  <AveiMil> well number one problem imho, is too many settings. like original and realistic train accel as an example. there's no need for both of those, come up with reasoned arguments for why one is superior to the other and elminate the other from the game
18:43:09  <planetmaker> Trying to force your 'proper' way on others?
18:43:24  <planetmaker> That fails on the account that everyone has a different view of what is 'proper'
18:43:51  <AveiMil> but I'm sure you can get a majority agreement
18:43:59  <planetmaker> I'm sure one cannot
18:44:10  <AveiMil> then someone just make a freaking decision
18:44:20  <Samu> i just want a balanced cheat free game
18:44:31  <Alberth> also, we want to make EVERYBODY happy, not just some subset.
18:44:32  <planetmaker> well. if there's a A or B decision a majority will agree to *something*. Which might as well be 'leave everything as is'
18:44:42  <Terkhen> heh
18:44:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21276 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by marek995
18:44:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:44:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
18:44:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
18:44:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:44:54  <AveiMil> Plenty won't be happy with a sea of settings :)
18:45:32  <Zuu> Yet we get requests to add a GUI for even more settings.
18:45:38  <Alberth> why, defaults are useful, and then it is just a matter of reading if you like experimenting
18:46:31  <Terkhen> AveiMil: I suggest that you make a list of settings that are not useful in your opinion and promote a discussion at the forums about which ones could be removed or could have their default values changed
18:46:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21277 /trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt: -Fix: failure of WT3 to properly validate some string...
18:47:10  * planetmaker agrees with Terkhen
18:47:14  <b_jonas> I'll try Japanese then
18:47:41  <AveiMil> I'm just a fan of having a rigdig core settings that everyone uses, personally I don't care about half the settings if they are on or off or what have you but oh well. when I think about it maybe TTD is not a game like that
18:47:46  <planetmaker> b_jonas: for added fun add also industria stations renewal and maybe one or another different station newgrf
18:48:05  <Terkhen> if you don't care about them, why do you bother on modifying them on the first place?
18:48:08  <planetmaker> I'm just a fan of having a rigdig core settings that everyone uses,  <-- aha. so you want everyone to use the same.
18:48:21  <AveiMil> yeah :)
18:48:27  <Samu> yes
18:48:28  <planetmaker> sorry mate. Won't happen.
18:48:35  <AveiMil> having everyone use the same settings means there's a better frame of reference
18:48:39  <b_jonas> okay, I'll try that
18:48:42  <AveiMil> and you can compare games
18:48:51  <planetmaker> what do you need that for?
18:49:10  <AveiMil> I guess that's lost of people who just want to play in a sandbox and build stuff
18:49:12  <AveiMil> heh
18:49:16  <AveiMil> afk dinner
18:49:21  <Terkhen> AveiMil: that's what default settings are for
18:49:24  <planetmaker> many people do exactly that, yes
18:49:30  * planetmaker is one of them
18:49:31  <fjb> To feel good if others have difficulty to play with his favorite settinhg.
18:49:35  <b_jonas> me too
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18:50:00  <Samu> easy/medium/hard as presets
18:50:08  <Terkhen> Samu: that's already done
18:50:11  <Samu> then work from then on
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18:50:15  * planetmaker also usually abuses airplanes to have infinitely enough money within very short time
18:50:34  <Terkhen> you can modify the difficulty settings
18:50:40  <Terkhen> the advanced settings are called advanced for a reason
18:50:45  * planetmaker still ponders to remove thedifficulty settings, though ;-)
18:50:52  <fjb> Abusing airplanes becomes harder with cargodist.
18:50:58  <planetmaker> they're pointless
18:51:04  <Terkhen> yeah, having three different windows for settings is pointless
18:51:14  <planetmaker> fjb: not, if the passengers have no other choice
18:51:17  <b_jonas> with these grfs, what year should I start?
18:51:27  <planetmaker> I'd start the usual time, 1950
18:51:27  <Wolf01> a "sandbox" difficulty would be cool, no use of money, no local authority, station spread set to max, all advanced settings enabled and so on
18:52:02  <planetmaker> Wolf01: what would 'enabled' mean for choice of acceleration model?
18:52:24  <planetmaker> or choice of airport noise influence?
18:53:15  <Wolf01> since you don't really need to make money in a sandbox you can enable the original or the "best looking" one (the one which doesn't slow down on cliffs)
18:53:40  <Wolf01> airport noise should be disabled since it's a limitation for normal games and not for a sandbox
18:53:55  <Terkhen> you can also set realistic acceleration with slope steepness 0
18:54:00  <Samu> no idea what a sandbox is...
18:54:11  <frosch123> __ln___: <- are there any vehicle related news in the news history?
18:54:11  <Wolf01> never played rollercoaster tycoon?
18:54:17  <Samu> nope
18:54:44  <Wolf01> a sandbox is a place where you can do whatever you want without worring about money/limitations
18:55:05  <b_jonas> or consequences
18:55:05  <frosch123> oh, "juna" seems to mean train
18:55:32  <b_jonas> arctic
18:56:33  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:56:56  <Wolf01> and another cool thing might be "fixed year" and all engines/buildings already unlocked, so you don't need to wait if you want to try a 1920 steamer aside of a 240 maglev
18:57:07  <Wolf01> *2040
18:57:19  <Terkhen> you can start at 2050 with vehicles never expire on
18:58:27  <Wolf01> does it keep obsolete vehicles or only the ones available on 2050?
18:59:33  <Wolf01> 'cause I remember I needed to start at 1900 then cheat the date to have all the vehicles, I don't know if this has been changed
18:59:36  <planetmaker> Wolf01: 'fixed year' is easy: vehicles never expire and year 3000
19:00:00  <Terkhen> if you have "vehicles never expire" on, all of them
19:00:04  <planetmaker> that has been working for as long as I'm around, so over 3 years
19:01:04  * Alberth never used tried that setting so far :)
19:01:18  <Alberth> s/used /used\//
19:02:48  <Wolf01> I usually play with it enabled
19:03:06  <Alberth> I never even reach 2000 :)
19:03:27  <Wolf01> I reach it too quickly instead
19:03:45  <Terkhen> my games tend to be too short, after 20 or 30 years I'm already bored of them
19:04:24  <Alberth> yeah, in 30 years you have connected all the interesting industries
19:04:25  <Wolf01> I usually take 20-30 years to build the main route :P
19:04:25  <planetmaker> Alberth: you always play with expiring vehicles?
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19:04:57  <planetmaker> I find that too... bothersome. The time line is too fast for me
19:05:05  <planetmaker> So I have to make my own and not upgrade immediately
19:05:07  <Wolf01> then I need to upgrade it to electric and autoreplace all trains
19:05:26  <b_jonas> Alberth: if you find that, you can play a larger map
19:05:56  <Wolf01> yeah, 100 years are way boring in a 64x64 map ;)
19:06:06  <planetmaker> Time surely flies, especially as I like to also watch things moving after I have built something. And then easily a few ingame years pass by while I just look at things and maybe ponder where to extend and how to improve the network
19:06:38  <Alberth> I was thinking to play FIRS on 64x64 with trucks only. With small delivery bug fixed, that becomes feasible :)
19:06:48  <Samu> breakdowns, inflation and hard makes the game more appealing to me
19:07:05  <fjb> Yes. it is fun to just look. I Save the game then and reload it after I got bored just looking.
19:07:06  <Alberth> actually turning inflation off is harder
19:07:07  <planetmaker> I tried FIRS on 256^2 in my last game. It was a fail as many industry chains were broken due to missing industries
19:07:27  <planetmaker> well... fail is too hard. But I found it sad :-)
19:07:27  <Samu> how's it harder?
19:07:38  <b_jonas> flb: inflation actually makes the game easier because you build and buy the trains cheap and eary much higher cargo income later
19:07:48  <Terkhen> Alberth: I had many nice truck games with FIRS in small maps, but it was many months ago
19:07:58  <planetmaker> :-)
19:08:20  * planetmaker still likes to build train networks :-)
19:08:24  <Samu> well, tell that to AI makers
19:08:27  <Terkhen> I'll probably have another soon, as I need to test opengfx+ road vehicles
19:08:32  <Samu> nearly all AIs go bankrupt with inflation on
19:08:37  <Wolf01> I usually play with breakdowns and inflation enabled, but when I need to try new things I have my custom config which allows me to do anything, and the first thing I do as soon as the game starts is to cheat some money (1 click is enough for the tries) in my bank balance
19:08:43  <fjb> Inflation hauts you after 200 years.
19:08:52  <planetmaker> oh, breakdowns... quite annoying ;-)
19:08:58  <planetmaker> good for scenario quests, though
19:09:08  * Alberth plays with breakdowns and servicing
19:09:24  <Terkhen> I never got the hang of building real train networks; I always end up building a different small network for each cargo
19:09:25  <planetmaker> servicing is another thing. That I don't care :-)
19:09:27  <Wolf01> I manually set the servicing in the vehicles schedule
19:09:39  <fjb> Without breakdowns it gets boring and you tend to never upgrade vehicles.
19:09:44  <Samu> wow, you guys cheat, that's funny... it's as if you don't know how the game you make really works
19:09:53  * fjb plays with reduced breakdowns.
19:10:16  <planetmaker> Samu: it's not cheating on any account
19:10:22  <planetmaker> it's just not _your_ playing style
19:10:53  <Wolf01> dinner time
19:10:58  <planetmaker> but you may understand now why there can never be a commonly agreed set of default settings
19:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate breakdowns
19:11:24  <fjb> Autoupgrade with pattern matching would be great. And autoupdating only engines with are at the end of their life.
19:11:27  <Samu> wolf says
19:11:28  <planetmaker> and why it is near-impossible to find concensus also on abolishing this or that setting
19:11:29  *** Arie- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:11:30  <Alberth> Terkhen: me too :)
19:11:35  <Samu> he cheats for some money
19:11:41  <Samu> what does he mean?
19:11:43  <Terkhen> planetmaker: it's easy; everyone who does not like to play with my style is a cheater
19:11:51  <planetmaker> :-D
19:12:04  <Terkhen> Samu: press CTRL+ALT+C in a single player game
19:12:35  <Terkhen> handy when you want to try stuff
19:12:52  <fjb> Or when you want to help a poor ai.
19:12:55  <Samu> the wrong way to balance a game
19:12:57  <b_jonas> "smooth economy" means how the production of primary industries change, right?
19:13:11  <Samu> is it a cheat?
19:13:21  <planetmaker> yes. With smooth economy the changes are more frequent but smaller
19:13:25  <Alberth> Samu: different people like different parts of the game, they change the game so it fits their ideas as good as possible
19:13:28  <b_jonas> thanks
19:13:31  <planetmaker> around 5% or so instead of 50%
19:13:35  <b_jonas> I'll turn that off
19:13:40  <b_jonas> I prefer larger changes
19:13:43  <planetmaker> smooth economy is nice :-)
19:14:00  <Alberth> you just too much news :)
19:14:00  <b_jonas> the name is confusing
19:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: based on recent poll results, we can remove original acceleration model :p
19:14:05  <Alberth> +get
19:14:08  <Samu> I just hate to be spammed with news about industry changes, so I tend to turn it off, besides TTD didn't have it
19:14:08  <Terkhen> I never tested how is the game with that on
19:14:29  <b_jonas> I mean, there's also the global economy that changes prices
19:14:39  <b_jonas> in the difficulty settings
19:14:44  <planetmaker> not really confusing... 'smooth economy' exactly tells what it does ;-)
19:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but it doesn't tell that it won't work with any modern industry set ;)
19:15:19  <planetmaker> he ;-)
19:16:32  <Samu> my poll results are very aggravating
19:16:49  <Samu> only 1 guy besides me voted original
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19:17:03  <frosch123> imo we have far too many languages to select from. we should start a poll about the most used ones
19:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it just tells you your idea what people might want may be totally off...
19:17:15  <Terkhen> Samu: it explains why settings are needed
19:17:29  <Terkhen> we could remove the original acceleration and only a few people would care
19:17:39  <Terkhen> but, in order to give more options, we make it a setting instead
19:17:45  <Rubidium> but SirkoZ would care...
19:18:11  <Samu> my opinion, it makes the game easy
19:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it does not.
19:18:32  <Samu> but whatever, it doesn't count
19:18:37  <frosch123> Rubidium: are you sure? doesn't vehicle smoke work better with realistic acceleration?
19:18:52  <Rubidium> no clue
19:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i remember my diesel engines smoked far more in TTO than they do in OpenTTD
19:19:14  * Terkhen starts testing
19:19:17  <Samu> realistic acceleration on a mountanious map makes it much more easier than original acceleration
19:19:30  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: isn't there even some setting for that :p
19:19:30  <Samu> trAIns
19:19:35  <Samu> survive with realistic
19:19:37  <Samu> dies with original
19:19:52  <Samu> same with denver & rio grande
19:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: but you tested with stable, not with nightly?
19:20:07  <Samu> tested with 1.0.4
19:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what i meant.
19:20:37  <Hirundo> diesel smoke is only at < 0,5*max speed ('original' setting) and trains spend longer at low speeds with original acceleration, so it's possible that there's more smoke then
19:20:43  <Terkhen> @commit 21106
19:20:44  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by michi_cc :: r21106 /trunk/src (4 files) (2010-11-07 13:35:07 UTC)
19:20:45  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Change: Tuned realistic acceleration to be a bit more realistic in order to make acceleration "slower", which highlights the differences between vehicle types more.
19:20:57  <Samu> cool
19:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: please run the same test on a recent nightly
19:21:04  <Samu> thanks for the nerf
19:21:22  <Terkhen> :D
19:22:15  <Samu> if nearly no one joins my game on 1.0.4, I doubt anyone would join a night version
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19:22:20  <Samu> but ok
19:22:20  <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: a nightly must be several megabytes in size
19:22:40  <Terkhen> about 4 MB
19:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: i can't help it if people are on 28.8 modem with 19¢/min...
19:23:45  <planetmaker> oh no...!
19:26:54  *** perk111 [~perk11@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:27:48  *** pyth [] has quit [Quit: pyth]
19:27:58  <Zuu> Samu: I would prefere a nightly server over a stable server, if there was one apart from #openttdcoop that was good.
19:28:11  * fjb does not care for smoking diesel engines.
19:28:27  *** xiong [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:31:08  <Zuu> When dihedral auto nightly was active, I had support for it in OpenTTD Auto Update in the same way as it supports #openttdcoop. Since some year ago or so it is possible for users to follow any server they like using the custom server target.
19:32:35  <Zuu> Also OpenTTD Auto Update is not even the only program to support the task of finding the right nightly to join a server. There is another tool that is based on a list similar to where you select a server to join and the tool fetch the right binary version if you don't have it yet.
19:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: if you have a semi-up-to-date nightly server, the adressable player base might be smaller, but you also have not as big a competition around...
19:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: plus, nightly players may be more willing to also use newgrfs
19:38:09  * Wolf01 enjoys his macross vf-1j valkyrie with armor parts, 1/48 scale
19:38:22  <Zuu> And the risk of getting lame players that just are trying to destroy as much as possible is probably lower for nightly servers.
19:39:30  <Samu> I can't, sorry
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19:39:41  <planetmaker> The competition for a (semi-)nightly server with competition would be about zero
19:39:52  <Zuu> Samu: Why not?
19:40:08  <Samu> there's night versions everyday
19:40:14  <Samu> I'd have to download daily
19:40:17  <b_jonas> wow, this terrain is dry
19:40:28  <b_jonas> I've generated a tropic map
19:40:32  <Zuu> You do not need to  download every day.
19:40:34  <b_jonas> it only has three water supplies
19:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it would suffice to switch nightly every new game, or every week or so
19:40:46  <Zuu> It's up to you as server owner how often you want to upgrade.
19:41:08  <planetmaker> dih's nightly server was indeed nice
19:41:26  <planetmaker> Well. Maybe we can get such thing going again... not too difficult
19:41:28  <Zuu> As I said, there are ways to obtain or keep in sync with nightly servers even if they are not using the very latest nightly.
19:42:18  <Alberth> Samu: build your own from source, much less data to download
19:42:20  <Zuu> If we have enough people to admin it and give it some love :-)
19:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/1.0/src/pathfinder/yapf/../../misc/blob.hpp:319:10: warning: attempt to free a non-heap object ‘CBlobBaseSimple::hdrEmpty’
19:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> is that known?
19:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> trying to compile RC2
19:42:50  <Alberth> it looks somewhat familiar
19:43:00  <b_jonas> isn't there a setting for delaying the start time of the AI players?
19:43:02  <Zuu> Alberth+ Samu: If you use a vcs to download you also only need to download the files that has changed.
19:43:06  <b_jonas> I can't find that setting for some reason
19:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> comes with lots of template babble before
19:43:12  <planetmaker> b_jonas: look in the AI settings...
19:43:12  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's known to those at GCC
19:43:30  <planetmaker> :-)
19:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> aye... so only a compiler bug... nothing to worry about :p
19:44:20  <Alberth> more a compiler flagging a false positive
19:44:43  <Samu> how would I compile OpenTTD
19:44:46  <b_jonas> planetmaker: ah, for each individual AI! thanks
19:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ey... there's way too many string updates in svn up...
19:45:03  <Samu> I would make it use TTD graphics, sounds and music
19:45:24  <planetmaker> Samu: all that matters not at all for a server...
19:45:34  <Alberth> Samu: with a C++ compiler :P    there are 'how to compile' pages at the wiki
19:46:07  <Samu> microsoft own installer is heavy
19:46:19  <Samu> I would use something like
19:46:23  <Samu> PAQ8PX
19:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: nah... you can do it just under 1GB of download :p
19:46:50  <Alberth> Samu: is PAQ8PX supposed to make any sense?
19:46:53  * planetmaker today downloaded 1.5GB installer to find out "I cannot install this here" :-(
19:47:11  <Samu> PAQ8PX I think it's the correct name for an archiver
19:47:37  <Samu> requires 2 GB to compress
19:47:38  <Alberth> I just use tar + gzip or bzip2 :)
19:47:40  <Samu> ram
19:48:18  <Eddi|zuHause> bzip2 the gzip output, and then rar and 7z that.
19:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that ought to make it _really_ compressed :p
19:48:27  <planetmaker> xz for the win ;-)
19:48:49  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and encrypt it first :p
19:48:55  <Samu> PAQ8PX compressed original TT to 1,6 MB
19:48:58  <planetmaker> better after that ;-)
19:49:06  <Samu> but it took 40 minutes
19:49:10  <Samu> on my comp
19:49:11  <glx> 7z uses same algo than xz IIRC
19:49:24  <planetmaker> 7z knows lzma, yes
19:49:27  <Rubidium> glx: isn't 7z lzma and xz lzma2?
19:49:27  <Alberth> planetmaker: and loose the chance to cripple all the compression algorithms? nah
19:49:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if you take a compressor that can turn every n bit stream into <=n-1 bits, then it's trivial to compress everything to 1 bit :p
19:49:42  <planetmaker> ahaha :-)
19:49:59  <Rubidium> oh, not since 9.04beta :)
19:50:13  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I can compress everything to 1 bit.
19:50:15  <glx> 9.04: LZMA2 and XZ support. ;)
19:50:20  <planetmaker> Did anyone mention without information loss?
19:50:29  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: not really, you also need to store how often you applied the compression program
19:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, but you can then apply the same algorithm on that number :p
19:51:02  <glx> hmm I'm still using 4.65b
19:51:27  <glx> upgrading to 9.20 should be a good idea
19:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> (obviously such an algorithm can't exist anyway. it's the computer science equivalent of a perpetuum mobile)
19:52:09  <planetmaker> might be a good idea to install p7zip in the first place :-)
19:52:19  <Alberth> did someone already claim they had such an algorithm?
19:52:38  <planetmaker> Alberth: I do :-) Still no-one wanted lossless-ness ;-)
19:52:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, afair someone wanted a patent on that method
19:52:54  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it just needs an inventive way of defining "one bit"
19:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, compression algorithms generally are assumed to operate on two eqivalent alphabets...
19:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: otherwise it doesn't make sense

19:54:34  <Rubidium> e.g. define a bit as the space needed to store a bit in early 1940s computer
19:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: relais based or tube based?
19:55:16  <Alberth> oh, a relay has space enough :)
19:55:22  <Alberth> *relais
19:55:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't really matter
19:55:47  <Rubidium> given you could fit the universe in basically no space at all
19:55:53  <b_jonas> maybe the algorithm guarantees only to compress anything at least a megabyte long by at least a bit
19:56:05  <b_jonas> then you couldn't compress everything to one bit
19:56:08  <b_jonas> but it's still impossible
19:56:33  <Rubidium> in any case, zip is a "bad" file format for achieving optimal compression
19:57:01  <b_jonas> many times you don't actually need optmal compression
19:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: the proof that it's impossible is actually really simple.
19:57:25  <b_jonas> it doesn't matter if you compress the 2G raw stuff to 500 M or 400 M
19:57:33  * Rubidium awaits Eddi|zuHause's proof given my definition of bit :)
19:57:37  <b_jonas> compression speed and compatibility also matters
19:57:56  <b_jonas> anyway, this industry revolution set seems fun
19:58:03  <b_jonas> has many different kinds of stations
19:58:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i already said beforehand that your definition is probably silly and not even worth discussing :p
19:58:36  <b_jonas> can I change opponent's color schemes?
19:58:38  *** asnoehu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:58:41  <b_jonas> AI opponent's
19:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you can only say that you don't want to see its custom colours
19:59:56  <b_jonas> I see
20:00:09  <b_jonas> I think it would make sense if I could change their colors
20:00:28  <b_jonas> I mean, that won't hinder their building, they don't see in color anyawy
20:00:37  <b_jonas> in a single player game at least
20:00:46  <b_jonas> maybe I should change their colors by cheating
20:00:53  <planetmaker> no hurt in that.
20:00:54  <Samu>
20:01:07  <Samu> should be there
20:01:24  <Zuu> Why is not the select dependencies list on bananas manager page sorted alphabetically? Makes it a whole lot harder to properly set up NewGRF dependencies for scenarios.
20:02:03  <planetmaker> probably no-one told it to be sorted ;-)
20:02:08  <Rubidium> Zuu: because TB didn't code that I reckon, or because Django doesn't do that out-of-the-box
20:02:28  <Rubidium> but... file a feature request on the website project with the bananas category
20:02:48  * Terkhen had forgotten how expensive is playing with road vehicles
20:03:02  <planetmaker> <-- suggestions are taken there :-)
20:04:22  * Rubidium wonders how much people are going to complain if I replace the .zip with .7z and remove .bz2 in favour of .xz on the download page (for future builds)
20:04:37  <b_jonas> Rubidium: I will
20:04:42  <planetmaker> removing .zip would not be a good idea. I would ;-)
20:05:08  <b_jonas> xz isn't even stable yet
20:05:11  <planetmaker> every OS can read .zip (near-)natively, but not .7z
20:05:15  <planetmaker> b_jonas: it is
20:05:24  <Rubidium> b_jonas: xz is stable
20:05:50  <planetmaker> replacing bz2 by xz, though... ok :-)
20:06:05  <b_jonas> I don't understand. doesn't the Japanese train set promise to provide trains from 1920?
20:06:14  <b_jonas> I didn't get any trains in 1930, and only one train in 1950
20:06:15  <Samu> the other day I compared several compressors/archivers
20:06:25  <Samu> winace, winrar, freearc, 7-zip
20:06:49  <Samu> winace and winrar are the worst
20:06:53  <b_jonas> why's that?
20:06:56  <Samu> freearc is the better
20:07:03  <Samu> 7-zip a close second
20:07:17  <glx> depends on what you want to compress
20:07:26  <Samu> I compressed old dos games
20:07:48  *** asnoehu [] has joined #openttd
20:08:05  *** Arie- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:08:37  <Samu> zip is still the fastest
20:08:45  <Samu> but loses to all
20:08:51  <Wolf01> 'nighty night
20:08:55  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:08:59  <Rubidium> lzo2 is definitely faster than zip
20:09:33  *** nicfer [~nicfer@] has joined #openttd
20:09:40  <Samu> do you know what is the zip version that comes with windows xp?
20:09:42  <Rubidium> except, IIRC, on zlib compression level 0
20:10:00  <b_jonas> wait, this isn't a japanese train!
20:10:04  <b_jonas> Wills 2-8-0
20:10:19  <Samu> I always wanted to search for the strongest zip compressor compatible with windows xp extractor
20:10:26  <b_jonas> ah, I see
20:10:35  <b_jonas> the japanese set doesn't support tropical climate
20:10:36  <b_jonas> hmm
20:11:22  <planetmaker> try it in arctic or temperate
20:11:49  <planetmaker> check whether it works in arctic though. Not 100% right now, but I *think*
20:12:16  <b_jonas> well, I'd rather play tropic now, with possibly some other trains
20:12:34  <b_jonas> tropical is less fun but looks better
20:12:46  <b_jonas> arctic makes me cold
20:12:53  <b_jonas> even if it's more balanced
20:12:58  <b_jonas> it's not what I need in the winter
20:16:04  <b_jonas> I wish depot orientations had keyboard shortcuts
20:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause> implement them
20:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it should really not be difficult
20:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's not actually already implemented and you only need to define one in hotkeys.cfg
20:18:14  <Alberth> new hot keys :)
20:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and while you are at it, keep it consistent with road station orientations ;)
20:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and when you're done with it, the signal gui
20:19:59  <Alberth> planetmaker: do you know when the first industry is available in-game in FIRS?
20:20:22  <Alberth> ie after initial industry generation?
20:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the bakery in 14-something-ish?
20:20:54  <Alberth> woo, much earlier than 1937 :(
20:21:19  <b_jonas> where's this hotkeys.cfg?
20:21:34  <Alberth> right next to your openttd.cfg
20:21:40  <b_jonas> it's not there
20:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> then you're using an ancient version
20:21:58  <b_jonas> my openttd.cfg is in ~/.openttd
20:22:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21278 /branches/1.0/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [1.0] -Prepare for 1.0.5
20:22:04  <b_jonas> I'm using -1.0.4
20:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's exactly what i mean ;)
20:22:16  <b_jonas> should I install -1.0.5 rc2?
20:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:22:25  <Samu> pan window when mouse is at the edge
20:22:31  <Samu> what does this do?
20:22:44  <Eddi|zuHause> a) you can wait half an hour for 1.0.5, and b) it won't contain new features
20:23:06  <Rubidium> pan the viewport when you place the mouse at the edge of the window
20:23:06  <Alberth> Samu: I think it makes the main window move when you move your mouse to the edge
20:23:10  <b_jonas> okay, so how do I customize the hotkeys?
20:23:18  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: a) is more like 45-50 minutes for releases
20:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you download a nightly
20:23:25  <b_jonas> oh
20:23:53  <Samu> what about moving up or down?
20:24:00  <Samu> it only goes left and right
20:24:10  <b_jonas> I guess the way hotkeys would make sense if local hotkeys (ones that are active only in a few dialogs) such as skip wouldn't collide with global ones
20:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it should do all directions
20:24:46  <b_jonas> so there would be a few keys (say f g h j k l) reserved for local hotkeys, and those would operate depot directions, station directions, the vehicle orders menu, etc
20:24:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21279 /tags/1.0.5/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.5
20:24:57  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: local hotkeys override global ones
20:24:57  <b_jonas> becuase I keep getting tripped up by the hotkey for skip
20:25:04  <Samu> mouse outside window and it's still moving
20:25:07  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: right, that's what's painful
20:25:10  <Samu> eh...
20:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: the problem you have might already be different in nightly
20:25:38  <b_jonas> the D key
20:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: yes, i know
20:26:04  <Samu> it's not working
20:26:05  <b_jonas> okay, thanks
20:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i've had that problem a couple times myself
20:26:40  <Samu> or, it works only for left and right, and sometimes when the mouse moves out of the window, it still goes to that direction
20:26:57  <b_jonas> I wouldn't mind using L for local hotkeys, I don't use the global L because D/Q/W/E/U/I already brings the landscaping up
20:27:05  <b_jonas> and I have the landscaping toolbar on almost always anyway
20:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> which reminds me of this annoyance that i had:
20:28:10  <Eddi|zuHause> when you switch toolbars (road/rail/air/...), the stickiness goes away
20:28:30  <Samu> ah, I made it work up and down
20:28:35  <Samu> the toolbars
20:28:38  <Samu> don't let it work
20:28:48  <Samu> 640x480 doesn't work
20:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that might be a bug
20:29:18  <Zuu> Oh, and while you are at hotkeys, add a hotkey hook for the AI debug menu item. :-)
20:29:59  <Samu> why does the screen keeps moving if I don't have the mouse pointing at that direction?
20:30:04  <Samu> so annoying
20:30:19  <b_jonas> what I would like is a button for railway fences in the transparency toolbar
20:30:48  <b_jonas> railway fences sometimes make it harder to see the fences, so I keep switching "full details" for that
20:30:57  <b_jonas> but it would really be better handled as a transparency option
20:31:12  <b_jonas> if it's performance critical than sure, let full detail switch it too
20:32:00  <b_jonas> these desert towns are stupid. they have more banks than water towers.
20:32:06  <Samu> when I don't have the mouse inside OpenTTD window, the game still remembers it's last position
20:32:08  <b_jonas> don't even the rich need to drink?
20:32:12  <Samu> so it keeps moving
20:32:26  <Samu> bah :(
20:33:34  <Samu> hard to get the pointer outside OpenTTD window without activating panning
20:33:38  <Samu> lol
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20:36:01  <AveiMil> Feature requst: Middle Mouse button scroll
20:36:08  <Samu> customizable hotkeys
20:36:13  <Samu> like all games have
20:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: what's that supposed to be?
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20:37:16  <Samu> function of scrollwheel, scroll map? what does it do?
20:37:26  <Samu> or, how do I get it to work
20:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i think that was originally developed for Mac, not sure if it was ever tested on other computers.
20:38:22  <Rubidium> buy a mac
20:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: originally it's intended for touchpads, where you can do two-finger-scrolling in multiple directions
20:39:20  <Samu> macs barelly sell here
20:39:25  *** nicfer [~nicfer@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:39:32  <Zuu> Also some older one-finger-touchpads support horizontal scrolling.
20:39:45  <Zuu> My old laptop had that (and it was a pc)
20:39:57  <Samu> ah, I don't have a laptop
20:40:02  <Samu> or touchpad
20:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: any 2D-scrollwheel should do :p
20:40:33  <Samu> my mouse has 3 buttons and a wheel
20:40:44  <Samu> middle button serves as wheel too
20:40:59  <Eddi|zuHause> wheel counts as 2 buttons usually (up, down)
20:41:13  <Samu> hmm, then it's 5 buttons?
20:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and 2D-Wheel is 4 buttons (up, down, left, right)
20:41:16  <Zuu> Yes
20:41:27  <Eddi|zuHause> my mouse is advertised as "9 buttons"
20:41:32  <Samu> it only goes up and down
20:41:37  <Zuu> A 3 button + wheel looks like a 5 button-mouse to the OS. At least in Linux.
20:42:04  <Zuu> Only that button 4 and 5 is mapped to the z axis.
20:45:19  <Samu> i have paq8px here
20:45:25  <Samu> 380kb
20:45:32  <Samu> need?
20:45:51  <b_jonas> there are also mouses with two actual extra buttons on the sides
20:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. all we ever needed is more esoteric compression algorithms
20:48:48  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
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20:49:12  <Samu> it has 4 exe files, I think 2 of them are for AMD, and 2 others are for Intel
20:49:54  <Samu> what is SSE2?
20:50:28  <Rubidium> old
20:50:45  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:51:02  <andythenorth> efening
20:51:07  <Samu> hi
20:51:35  <AveiMil> What I meant by scroll was
20:51:37  <AveiMil> map scroll
20:51:47  <AveiMil> right now you can define left or right mouse button
20:52:00  <AveiMil> pressing mouse 3 should be viable :)
20:52:00  <planetmaker> [Alberth]: planetmaker: do you know when the first industry is available in-game in FIRS? <-- somewhen in the middle ages
20:52:33  <andythenorth> first FIRS industry?  Some have no specific intro date, so probably 0
20:52:57  <andythenorth> we catered for those weirdos who want to play late rome :P
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20:54:52  <Alberth> I was wondering about the crash in FS#4250, perhaps is not FIRS?
20:55:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: it's a FIRS game
20:56:00  <andythenorth> is all I can tell you
20:56:11  * andythenorth thinks kogut is a very helpful finder of bugs
20:56:17  <andythenorth> and should get cookies
20:56:22  <Samu> autoslope is so expensive already, yet ppl still don't care
20:56:38  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:57:46  <Alberth> andythenorth: indeed, he finds many bugs. No if he also reduced the number of topics & sites he posts in, that would be useful ;)
20:58:46  <Alberth> Samu: I get money faster than I can spend, why should I care?
20:58:47  <IchGuckLive> can i get rid  in jyear 2020+ of the losing of industries
20:59:14  <IchGuckLive> i spend near 1Bio on a channel then the oil raddenerie is gone !
20:59:35  <Samu> there is a bug, or maybe an unintended feature regarding bridges on water + autoslope
21:00:01  <Alberth> IchGuckLive: oh, yes, industries disappear every now and then.
21:00:12  <Alberth> you can build a new one at the same place
21:00:41  <Alberth> or you can disable closing + opening of industries completely
21:01:00  <Alberth> or some industry newgrfs disable such things by themselves
21:01:24  <IchGuckLive> 1,8bio thats huge
21:01:54  <Samu> hard to explain, a bridge where the starting tile is half water, half land becomes way too expensive than a bridge that raises height one level, is longer and starts on full land
21:02:13  <Samu> meh, english
21:02:24  <IchGuckLive> Alberth: and noe the town refuses to build a Harbour
21:02:45  <Alberth> Samu: I get it
21:03:02  <IchGuckLive> Alberth: even no build on my own land
21:03:20  <Alberth> you can build tracks :p
21:03:38  <planetmaker> plant trees :-)
21:03:47  <Samu> bridge of length 4
21:03:54  <planetmaker> cutting down trees for whatever reason is greatly resented by the town citizens
21:03:56  <IchGuckLive> transfer is not good  i nearly spend all my mony on this projekt !
21:03:59  <Samu> starting tiles half water, half land
21:04:01  <Alberth> wait a while (if you have stations with good ratings), plant lots of trees, or bribe them :)
21:04:03  <Zuu> Samu: Did you play OpenTTD before autoslope existed?
21:04:09  <Samu> cost = 44k
21:04:10  <Samu> yes
21:04:22  <b_jonas> tropical map generation seems strange. even with mountainous setting, there are few snowy regions and almost no snowy towns.
21:04:27  <b_jonas> what am I doing wrong?
21:04:35  <IchGuckLive> desepointet so closing for tonight BY O.o
21:04:39  <fjb> planetmaker: Stuttgart 21. :)
21:04:44  <Zuu> Good, then you should be able to value the convinience of that feature :-)
21:04:44  <Alberth> IchGuckLive: bye
21:04:49  *** IchGuckLive [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]]
21:05:04  <b_jonas> Zuu: that and building on slopes, yes
21:05:12  <b_jonas> anyone who's played ttd can value it
21:05:14  <Alberth> b_jonas: tropical with snow? sounds very wrong :)
21:05:20  <b_jonas> um, arctic
21:05:21  <b_jonas> sorry
21:05:25  <b_jonas> subarctic climate
21:05:38  <Samu> it's a bad feature imo, but since it increases costs, I think it's fair
21:05:50  <b_jonas> Samu: you can turn it off
21:06:02  <b_jonas> I've got only two snow towns on a 512x256 map
21:06:28  <Samu> it seriously remove planning and thinking altogether
21:06:54  <Samu> "should I make a bridge here?" "or a tunnel" "or terraform here?" "or turn around"?
21:07:02  <b_jonas> no, I've got three
21:07:04  <Samu> no, I just build a straigth line
21:07:05  <planetmaker> Just set terraform cost to max
21:07:13  <Alberth> b_jonas: do you use 'terragenesis' land generator?
21:07:17  <Samu> the game automatically does the bad part
21:07:34  <b_jonas> Alberth: yes
21:07:43  <b_jonas> and snow height is 7, I don't know what the default is
21:08:04  *** green-devil [] has quit []
21:08:06  <planetmaker> possibly 7 ;-)
21:08:07  <Alberth> b_jonas: variety not too high
21:08:28  <planetmaker> he :-) I usually recommend variety to very high
21:08:35  <Alberth> b_jonas: lower snow limit => more snowy towns :)
21:08:44  <b_jonas> variety is set to very low. I don't know what that even means
21:08:46  <Alberth> planetmaker: then you get more 'waves'
21:08:47  <b_jonas> Alberth: obviously
21:09:01  <planetmaker> concerning snowline: use the snowlinemod newgrf </shameless plug>
21:09:02  <Alberth> b_jonas: set to medium
21:10:07  *** glevans2 [] has quit [Quit: Don't Panic!]
21:10:18  <Alberth> b_jonas: variety adds mountain 'waves', low is almost nothing, very high are many 'short' mountains
21:10:34  <Samu> I thought variety was for trees
21:10:37  <Samu> :(
21:10:58  <Alberth> that's the tree algorithm :)
21:11:16  <Alberth> but trees are also affected by height
21:11:26  <b_jonas> Alberth: I see. thanks.
21:11:30  <planetmaker> there's a tooltip... it briefly explains every function
21:11:41  <Samu> the game seems to build autoslope-trees
21:11:53  <Samu> on this scenario from TTD
21:12:00  <Alberth> I also have map edges to 'random' so you can have land at the edges
21:12:08  <Samu> called Dice Zone, planting trees on slopes makes the map look bad on the minimap
21:12:11  <b_jonas> I don't get it. what use do they have for so may oil refineries and prining works in 1950 while they don't have as many food processing plants
21:12:19  <b_jonas> seems to go against common sense
21:12:58  <b_jonas> and many banks too
21:13:12  <b_jonas> I think I'm going to rob one of these banks to get money
21:13:23  <Alberth> the game has nothing to do with any form of reality
21:14:20  *** glevans2 [] has joined #openttd
21:14:27  <b_jonas> sure
21:15:30  <Alberth> planetmaker: no tooltip for many buttons, it seems (after trying randomly 3 buttons)
21:16:39  <planetmaker> he :-(
21:17:54  <Samu> can you fix bridge costs over water?
21:18:31  <Terkhen> what is the bug?
21:18:55  <Samu> makes no sense that a bridge that goes 2 levels higher on water is cheaper than another that goes only 1 level just because its starting points are full land
21:19:08  <Terkhen> why not?
21:19:53  <Samu> 2 slopes and 1 more level is the difference between a bridge costing 40k and 4k
21:21:02  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:21:24  <Terkhen> I still don't understand the problem
21:21:51  <Alberth> modifications near the water are very expensive
21:22:32  <Terkhen> oh, okay :)
21:23:09  <Alberth> Terkhen: he is building a bridge against a half-tile that is half in the water, so foundations are added.
21:23:15  <Terkhen> Samu: you can change the base costs using a NewGRF
21:23:32  <Terkhen> some of the water costs can only be changed with a nightly newer than r19720
21:23:34  <Alberth> the other option is to raise the bridge 1 level. Way cheaper
21:23:44  <planetmaker> but then not everyone has to suffer from that, Terkhen ! ;-)
21:24:04  <Samu> let me show you a topic
21:25:05  <Samu>
21:25:07  <Samu> that's it
21:25:35  <Terkhen> in which way is that related to our bridge discussion?
21:26:19  <Samu> the AI elevated the bridge
21:26:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21280 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.0
21:26:26  <Samu> because it's cheaper
21:26:33  <Terkhen> yeah, it is the same I would do
21:26:49  <Samu> makes no sense, but ok...
21:27:08  <Samu> a longer/higher bridge cheaper than a shorter, same level bridge
21:27:23  <Terkhen> whatever, I'm tired of hearing that nothing makes sense and that everything is wrong
21:28:18  <planetmaker> welcome to the club, Terkhen
21:28:26  <andythenorth> we broke Terkhen :(
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21:28:40  <Alberth> that short bridge has 4 terraformed tiles at a water-edge
21:28:45  * planetmaker hugs Terkhen
21:28:47  <planetmaker> cookie?
21:28:57  <Terkhen> thanks :P
21:29:14  <planetmaker> :-)
21:29:16  <Terkhen> continuing with my road vehicle testing will help too
21:29:43  <planetmaker> reminds me... I was about to update our stable server...
21:29:54  <planetmaker> we're not up to date anymore :-)
21:30:22  <Samu> if only I could show you what I wanted...
21:30:31  <Terkhen> although my highways are already about to collapse with just 2 iron ore mines, 2 coal mines and a steel mill
21:30:40  <planetmaker> already?
21:31:08  <Rubidium> @topic set 1 1.0.5
21:31:08  *** DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.5 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only
21:31:30  <Alberth> Samu: so many people want their thing from us....
21:31:40  <Terkhen> they probably can still take a bit more traffic
21:31:54  <Terkhen> but since the mines are starting to receive ENSP it won't last much
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21:32:10  <Alberth> if you look at what AIs put on the road ... :)
21:32:14  <Samu> cool, i made 2 screenshots, where do I send them?
21:32:36  <Alberth> to do what?
21:32:41  <andythenorth> Terkhen: maybe you need some bigger trucks :P
21:32:50  <Alberth> there is a screenshot forum
21:32:59  <Samu> I'll post on the problem forum
21:32:59  <Alberth> there are also image bins
21:33:02  <planetmaker> Terkhen: maybe also some... 15-vehicle trams?
21:33:07  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I know which ones I should be using, but I wanted to test mine :)
21:33:18  <planetmaker> some friendly newgrf dev has a newgrf with those ;-)
21:33:20  <andythenorth>
21:33:32  <Terkhen> they have all the problems of the standard road vehicles, except the refit part :P
21:33:47  <planetmaker> :-)
21:33:47  <Terkhen> it is not very fun to play only with them
21:33:56  * Terkhen ponders adding a NewGRF to a running game
21:34:03  <Alberth> andythenorth: shiny green ones :)
21:34:03  <planetmaker> oh no!
21:34:14  <planetmaker> But I guess you may... you're a newgrf developer ;-)
21:34:35  <Terkhen> I think I'm going to ignore the warning and complain if it crashes :)
21:34:46  <Alberth> planetmaker: everybody may, as long as they don't come and complain with us
21:35:09  <planetmaker> :-) they may not! Because it has to be played by my rules!
21:35:12  <planetmaker> :-P
21:35:13  <Terkhen> andythenorth: what a monster
21:35:14  <Zuu> Terkhen: Sounds like a good plan ^^
21:35:15  <Samu>
21:35:37  <Alberth> Terkhen: good, I already know which dev will volunteer to solve the problem :p
21:36:28  <Terkhen> that's really efficient: I can complain to myself about the problem, complain against myself because I'm a stupid user and fix my own problem
21:37:00  <Alberth> Samu: is that a new trend, posting pictures without explaining what I am supposed to learn from them?
21:37:16  <frosch123> pictures are worth more than 1000 words
21:37:23  <frosch123> see: there is a green pixel
21:37:28  <b_jonas> wow, this version has a setting for the date format in the savefile name
21:37:32  <b_jonas> that's just what I wanted
21:37:33  <frosch123> 6 words per pixel
21:37:38  <b_jonas> I guess that's new
21:37:46  <frosch123> b_jonas: no :p
21:37:56  <b_jonas> thanks for whoever did it
21:37:57  <frosch123> i would guess about 2 years old
21:37:58  <Samu> I have already explained here
21:38:04  <b_jonas> I think it's new because I hasn't set it yet
21:38:21  <Alberth> frosch123: except the post contains entire screen shots, so many words that the message gets lost
21:38:35  <Zuu> andythenorth: Nice big trucks :-)
21:38:42  <Alberth> Samu: most forum readers are not here
21:38:50  <andythenorth> fortunately :P
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21:38:54  <Terkhen> oh well
21:39:11  <Alberth> not to mention that in one week from now, nobody remembers this conversation
21:39:18  <Terkhen> the bulk truck is already tested, I'll just start another game with HEQS to test the other trucks
21:39:48  <Alberth> Terkhen: load another grf, and have a truck race :)
21:40:55  <Terkhen> :D
21:42:59  <Samu> i edited topic
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21:44:38  <Zuu> andythenorth: Speaking of rv wagons - reminds me of a logistics book I had at university that included tips on how you can setup a set of trucks + wagons that can run using two drivers in nordic countries and then as three in the rest of the EU where 24 meter trucks are not allowed. :-D
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21:45:10  <Zuu> All you needed is a extra driving unit and reordering the wagons.
21:45:19  <Samu> how do I build a bridge over a bridge? I saw some AI doing it, then I tried and I couldn't
21:45:34  <Zuu> In order to go from 24 meter to whatever the limit is in the rest of the EU.
21:46:19  <b_jonas> uh, I might be young, but... do I put the break van to the very back of the train or to the front behind the engine?
21:46:35  <andythenorth> b_jonas: wherever you like?
21:46:49  <andythenorth> normally to the back though
21:47:15  <b_jonas> thanks
21:47:25  <Samu> those newgrfs overcomplicate things sometimes
21:47:58  <Samu> it's hard to make one, then no one plays it
21:48:12  <Samu> kinda reminds me of my war3 maps
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21:50:28  * andythenorth wants newgrfs to phone home
21:50:38  <andythenorth> in some horribly invasive way :P
21:51:08  <Terkhen> can't you do that already with some callback?
21:52:06  <b_jonas> I'm not using the newgrfs because I don't know which ones to use
21:52:14  <b_jonas> but now you gave me some hints so now I can use some
21:53:03  <Terkhen> b_jonas: it is confusing at first; I started playing with a few vehicle GRFs without new industries and kept trying other things to see which ones I liked
21:53:39  <planetmaker> b_jonas: the only good tip really is: try few at a time only :-)
21:54:06  <b_jonas> planetmaker: uh, you should have told that earlier
21:54:19  <planetmaker> depends on the definition of few ;-)
21:55:10  <b_jonas> and depends on which kinds of grf: there are ones that replace the entire industrial chain, and ones that only give a single extra town building
21:55:27  <b_jonas> I've loaded quite a few now
21:57:35  <Samu> compatability
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21:57:44  <Samu> who writes compatability? :p
21:57:59  <b_jonas> Hungarian town names, Industrial Stations Renewal, Japanese Stations (these two sort of clash), Japan Set Trees, Japanese Building, Japanese Landscape, Japanese Maglev, Japanese Train, Swedish Houses, Swedish Rails, Generic Tram set.
21:58:17  <planetmaker> stations never clash :-)
21:58:31  <planetmaker> your list is fine
21:58:44  <planetmaker> I'd not have chosen both house sets, though
21:58:52  <b_jonas> I made a point not to load two train sets, and not load two town name sets
21:58:59  <planetmaker> it's not a problem but doesn't make sense visually
22:02:02  <b_jonas> thanks
22:03:18  <Samu> Does NoCAB work on this new release?
22:03:26  <Samu> 1.0.5?
22:03:55  <Samu> he mentioned something about the API
22:04:31  <Zuu> If he mentioned something about the API, I would re-read that part.
22:04:36  <Samu> but there's some contradictions
22:04:49  <Samu> yexo says no, nocab says yes
22:06:12  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
22:06:28  <Samu> it was planetmaker, not yexo
22:06:46  <Samu> planetmaker says no, nocab says yes
22:06:53  <planetmaker> ?
22:07:29  <Zuu> According to the API docs, you need a nightly.
22:07:54  * andythenorth wonders how we can make the game more beautiful
22:07:59  <Zuu> Morloth said he need AIIndustry::INDUSTRYTYPE_*.
22:08:19  <Samu> yes, that
22:08:23  <Zuu> That is only available in the trunk API (in AIIndustryType::INDUSTRYTYPE_*), not the 1.0.5 API.
22:08:31  <Samu> ah :(
22:08:40  <Samu> gonna complain then
22:08:50  <Zuu> Compare and
22:09:08  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
22:09:15  <Zuu> Complain is not good. Making him aware of the issue is better.
22:09:20  <Rubidium> there are no NoAI API changes in 1.0.5 compared to 1.0.4, so if it doesn't work in 1.0.4 it doesn't work in 1.0.5 either
22:10:04  <b_jonas> andythenorth: make a newgrf with lots of different town houses
22:10:11  <Samu> how long 'till 1.1.0?
22:10:24  <Samu> 5 more months?
22:10:26  * Terkhen wonders if using the Gmund Hog for delivering supplies is a good idea
22:10:32  <Zuu> He probably have set API version as "1.0" in his AI, but develop on a nightly build. Then you have the 1.0 compatibility loaded but can accidently access newer functions that are not part of the 1.0 API version.
22:10:46  <andythenorth> Terkhen: that's what it's intended for
22:10:50  <Samu> well, I'll wait for 1.1.0
22:10:55  <andythenorth> it's not fast though
22:10:58  <Terkhen> okay, let's see :)
22:11:30  <Terkhen> I'm in 1950, it is my fastest road vehicle besides buses
22:11:32  <Zuu> Samu: There will probably be betas comming around a few months before the next stable.
22:12:58  <Samu> why is the file COPYING without any extension? :)
22:13:07  <Samu> it's a text
22:13:18  <planetmaker> convention
22:14:05  <Samu> DOSBOX has it as COPYING.txt
22:14:14  <b_jonas> strange. some trees I see on the map don't show up in the trees selector
22:14:16  <Samu> exactly the same file
22:14:22  <Rubidium> so they're violating convention
22:14:34  <Samu> really? lol poor guys
22:14:41  <b_jonas> or maybe they just have a very different color
22:14:44  <b_jonas> but the same shape
22:15:06  <b_jonas> Rubidium: quite the contrary: the dos convention is that all regular files should have an extesions
22:15:12  <b_jonas> that's kept by all dos programs
22:15:21  <b_jonas> even if not actually required by the system
22:15:37  <Rubidium> the DOS convention is that command line arguments use /
22:15:38  <b_jonas> so it makes sense that the dos port keeps it
22:15:44  <Rubidium> you don't see that in OpenTTD
22:15:45  <b_jonas> Rubidium: sure, but many dos programs break it\
22:15:53  <b_jonas> the / arguments that is
22:16:12  <Rubidium> and for fun: dosbox uses "-" for arguments and not "/"
22:17:41  <Rubidium> b_jonas: ever looked at dosbox's source code
22:18:04  <Rubidium> the violation of "dos" protocol is immensive
22:18:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> so they're violating convention <-- violating a convention is far less serious than violating the actual license ;)
22:18:21  <Rubidium> e.g. it's COPYING, not COPYING.txt, in dosbox's source code
22:18:41  <Rubidium> actually, dosbox's readme doesn't even have an extension
22:18:53  <Rubidium> and for what it's worth, DOS convention is COPYING.TXT
22:19:13  <Samu> all texts from dosbox are .txt over here
22:19:39  <Rubidium> then someone did change all of those during release
22:19:57  <Samu> i downloaded dosbox 0.74
22:20:05  <Samu> that's the version I'm using
22:20:08  <Rubidium> I downloaded dosbox 0.74's source code
22:20:30  <Samu> no idea how to use a source code
22:23:51  <b_jonas> Rubidium: I see
22:24:31  * andythenorth thinks bedtime
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22:38:30  <Terkhen> good idea
22:38:31  <Terkhen> good night
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22:47:58  <Samu> autoreplace all trains in the depot
22:48:12  <Samu> what does this do? even with trains inside, it does nothing
22:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you can set up replacement rules while game is paused, replace the trains, and remove the rule again, to not influence other trains
22:50:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (i almost always use autoreplace this way)
22:53:39  <Samu> I thought this button would change the engine to a new one of the same model
22:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it can probably do that as well, but it needs (temporarily) setting the autorenew setting in advanced options
22:55:24  *** Arie- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> # isn't that cute
22:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause> # an extra belly button
22:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> ... what a stupid song...
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22:56:52  <Samu> I remember that song
22:57:06  <Samu> it's old
22:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is ;)
22:58:14  <Samu> short dick man
22:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> early 90's?
22:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> damn thing isn't tagged properly...
22:59:12  <Samu> 94 somewhat
22:59:14  <Samu> not sure
23:01:59  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
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23:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> of course i didn't understand a single word back then...
23:06:03  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:07:58  <__ln___> it's confusing when actors from Heroes appear on House M.D.
23:08:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't watch house.
23:10:49  <__ln___> you should
23:11:00  <Samu> OMG I went bankrupt
23:11:54  <Samu> lol, the plastic fountains was only producing 18,000
23:11:56  <Samu> :(
23:12:20  <Samu> gonna download 1.0.5
23:12:40  <__ln___> and they don't have their powers when on House.
23:13:01  <Samu> problem with the 1.0.4 uninstaller
23:13:15  <Samu> save game folder is not located at where the uninstaller says it is
23:13:37  <Samu> scenario folder, same thing
23:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: damn, i thought the actual actors had those powers!!
23:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> I HAVE BEEN SCREWED!!
23:14:06  <Zuu> Samu: What does the installer say?
23:14:27  <Samu> it asks me if I want to delete save games
23:14:33  <Samu> and then if I want to delete scenarios
23:14:39  <Samu> and it points me to their folders
23:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: usually you don't want to do that
23:14:50  <Zuu> I mean, which path does the installer suggest?
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23:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: also, you usually don't need uninstalling at all
23:14:58  <Zuu> I never used the installer myself.
23:15:08  <Samu> c:\programas\openttd\save
23:15:10  <Samu> c:\programas\openttd\scenario
23:15:40  <Samu> they are here
23:15:43  <Samu> C:\Documents and Settings\MOI\Os meus documentos\OpenTTD\save
23:15:53  <Samu> C:\Documents and Settings\MOI\Os meus documentos\OpenTTD\scenario
23:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: might be simply an unimplented validation routine...
23:16:38  <Zuu> If it bothers you, you can file a bug report - after checking that there isn't one already.
23:17:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: but you should not put this stuff in programs\openttd anyway.
23:17:17  <Rubidium> ye good old days the savegames were in program files...
23:17:17  <Zuu> Please make that report more self explaining than your screenshot thread then.
23:17:50  <Samu> ok
23:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause> what? his poll thread was hugely self-explaining :p
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23:20:25  <Samu> data and gm folders weren't uninstalled
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23:20:33  <Samu> I guess I know why
23:24:12  <Samu> what is the category for this?
23:24:15  <Samu> build system?
23:27:46  <glx> some installer bugs are fixed in trunk but not yet backported
23:30:08  <Samu>
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23:34:21  <planetmaker> good night
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23:36:40  <Samu> I always wanted to ask, the installer is smaller than the zip version
23:39:15  <Rubidium> yeah, the installer uses lzma (7z), the zip doesn't
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23:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the 30 year old generic algorithm obviously isn't as efficient as the 5 year old one
23:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> lmaa
23:41:25  <Samu> 28kb/s
23:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the joke wasn't funny the first time either :p
23:42:03  <Samu> 1 minute to go
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23:43:27  <Samu> scan with avgfree
23:44:29  <Samu> meh, i have to mount the isz
23:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you are a strange kid, even under nerds you manage to stand out :p
23:47:19  * Rubidium ponders mounting some other defenses
23:47:47  <Samu> it's good to called kid at this age
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23:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you know, "kid" was meant metaphorically...
23:51:48  <Samu> aww, you didn't add aircraft type line :(
23:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i managed to be called "old man" at the age of 20 on the internet :p
23:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: no new features are added at all
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23:53:52  <Samu> you fixed something about snow line? what was that about?
23:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you know, it has a revision number attached to it for a reason.
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