Log for #openttd on 25th November 2010:
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00:24:30  <Samu> remove absurd road-elements during the road construction
00:24:51  <Samu> is this for the town AI or for the player?
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00:27:56  <SmatZ> for town
00:27:56  <SmatZ> when player pays for road reconstruction
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00:33:47  <Samu> then it should be
00:33:50  <Samu> road reconstruction
00:35:11  <SmatZ> seems so
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00:50:58  <Samu> question
00:51:11  <Samu> percentage of leg profit to pay in feeder systems
00:51:16  <Samu> what's a leg?
00:51:40  <Belugas> part of the total trip
00:52:04  <Belugas> a to b - b to c - c to d
00:52:10  <Belugas> a to b is a leg
00:52:16  <Samu> ah,
00:52:41  <Samu> the more transfers I do, the less I gain in the last leg?
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01:00:02  <Belugas> dunno. it depends of a lot.  but for sure, the more legs, the more time.  thus  less profitable
01:00:12  <Belugas> isn't it logic?
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01:10:13  <Samu> {BLACK}View and/or set face number of the company president
01:10:27  <Samu> I need help on this, what if the president is female?
01:11:03  <glx> adapt the string :)
01:11:52  <Samu> {BLACK}Ver e/ou definir número de cara do/da presidente da empresa
01:11:55  <Samu> like that?
01:11:56  <Samu> ugly
01:12:10  <glx> no remove the president part :)
01:12:39  <Samu> company face?
01:12:44  <Samu> :)
01:12:49  <Samu> no, sounds bad
01:13:03  <glx> {BLACK}View and/or set face number
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01:23:14  <supermop> hello
01:24:42  <SmatZ> hello supermop
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01:25:19  <supermop> hows it going
01:26:17  <SmatZ> quite fine :) you?
01:26:24  <Samu> {BLACK}Remove all company-owned property from the map
01:26:36  <Samu> is that 1 company only, or all companies?
01:27:30  <Samu>
01:27:45  <SmatZ> all companies
01:28:20  <Samu> wow, never seen such thing happen
01:28:53  <supermop> i am at my parents house
01:29:06  <supermop> its pretty good
01:29:08  <SmatZ> :)
01:29:27  <SmatZ> Samu: it's available in scenario editor
01:31:20  <Samu> {WHITE}The last {NUM} second{P "" s} no data has arrived from the server
01:31:26  <Samu> help me translate this
01:31:36  <Samu> I need multiple plurals
01:31:42  <Samu> for the same number
01:31:54  <Samu> 2 before, 1 on the word
01:32:36  <Samu> No(s) último(s) segundo(s) nenhum dado foi recebido do servidor
01:33:07  <planetmaker> {WHITE}Die letzte{P 0 "" n} {NUM} Sekunde{P "" n} wurden keine Daten vom Server empfangen
01:34:22  <Samu> what does the 0 do?
01:34:57  <planetmaker> reference the 1st parameter. which is the number
01:35:14  <Samu> ok, thanks
01:35:26  <Samu> then 0 for the 2 before, nothing for the word
01:35:32  <Samu> let's see
01:37:28  <Samu> {WHITE}No{P 0 "" s} último{P 0 "" s} {NUM} segundo{P "" s} nenhum dado foi recebido do servidor
01:42:12  <Belugas> lovely parameters :)
01:42:59  <Belugas> mmh...  nothing good happened tonight.  i guess i'm too tired to compose...
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01:44:23  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i hate laptop keyboards
01:44:30  <Eddi|nichZuHause> and touchpads...
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01:53:47  <Samu> {LTBLUE}Maximum number of non-sticky windows: {ORANGE}disabled
01:53:50  <Samu> a little problem with the english
01:54:06  <Samu> disabled could mislead to no windows at all
01:55:51  <Samu> maybe unlimited instead of disabled?
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01:56:51  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i don't remember that setting
01:57:14  <avdg> gn
01:58:40  <Samu> it's a setting that changes the number of windows I can have at once
01:58:52  <Samu> when I open more than that number, it closes some others
01:59:31  <Eddi|nichZuHause> why even expose that to the user?
01:59:59  <Samu> it can run out of memory or something, someone said
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02:14:59  <Samu> T.E: traftive effort?
02:15:01  <Samu> tractive
02:18:38  <Eddi|nichZuHause> yes
02:19:33  <Samu> then it's not E.T in portuguese, it's F.T
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02:38:48  <Samu> how do I change phrase construction for depots?
02:39:13  <Samu> London Road Vehicle Depot
02:39:21  <Samu> Road Vehicle Depot of London
02:39:24  <Samu> like that
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02:43:22  <glx> Samu: search for STR_FORMAT_DEPOT
02:44:17  <Samu> ah, weird, it doesn't work in-game
02:44:26  <Samu> {TOWN} Train Depot
02:44:30  <Samu> Depósito de Comboios de {TOWN}
02:44:38  <glx> 1.0.5 is not trunk
02:44:45  <glx> it works in trunk
02:44:54  <Samu> ok, :)
02:45:06  <Samu> last change was 7 months ago though
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02:45:35  <glx> yes after 1.0.0 release
02:49:41  <Samu> what about hangars?
02:49:57  <Samu> oops, nevermind
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02:56:13  <Samu> hey
02:56:24  <Samu> on the scenario editor
02:56:36  <Samu> when I click industry generator
02:56:54  <Samu> I get a window saying, finance new industry
02:57:11  <Samu> but I'm editing a scenario, not playing
02:57:19  <Samu> can't find that string
02:58:08  <Samu> can't edit it, or it will change on both, I think
02:58:17  <Samu> editing and playing
02:58:40  <Samu> ah, it's that one
02:58:44  <Samu> thx
02:59:09  <Samu> no, that's not what I mean
02:59:28  <Samu> fund new industry is for when playing
02:59:34  <glx> and scenario
02:59:40  <glx> it's the same window
02:59:50  <Samu> ah, it should be changed
02:59:59  <Samu> cause I'm not 'paying'
03:00:15  <Samu> there's no money
03:00:24  <glx> not important :)
03:04:06  <Samu> i think it is
03:04:08  <Samu> but ok
03:04:27  <Samu> gotta go
03:04:39  <Samu> there's many erroneous tooltips in scenario editor
03:04:53  <Samu> tomorrow i'll fix them
03:04:55  <Samu> bye
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04:39:50  <supermop> hello
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08:10:08  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:32:05  <avdg> good morning
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08:52:52  <planetmaker> hello
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08:58:05  <avdg> hey
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10:06:47  <fjb> Moin
10:08:03  <Rubidium> moi
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10:36:47  <Arie-> :/
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11:08:46  <Thror> hi
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11:30:46  <George> Hi
11:32:05  <George> Does anybody know, is the layout already defined and can be checked or not while CB14B and 14C (Decide input and output cargo types)
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11:35:44  <Rubidium> George: the type is already known; it's actually half way through constructing the industry, i.e. all industry variables will work but the industry tiles haven't been placed yet
11:35:45  <xiong> Hi, guys.
11:37:43  <xiong> Some trouble with building dense bus feeder lines of ~50 vehicles per town. Seems that I can't avoid serious jams -- by "serious", I mean ones that don't clear eventually on their own.
11:39:53  <xiong> I've tried building more stops per station, one-way roads, and juggling locations of stops and depots. All efforts seem to fail on a single cause: Whatever I do, one specific route from A to B is always "best", according to pathfinder (YAPF). It's deterministic and doesn't take into account traffic on the road ahead.
11:41:56  <George> Rubidium: Does it mean that industry registers are already created be read/written?
11:41:58  <xiong> So, I might provide 3 equally good routes from A to B but all traffic going that way will choose only one of them. Unless I'm extremely fascist about things, some other C to D traffic will also find a preferred route, which will intersect the A-B preferred route at some point.
11:42:35  <Rubidium> yup
11:42:44  <Rubidium> or at least should be
11:42:59  <xiong> What can be done? I've searched heavily for discussions of road vehicle networks, routing, etc. Nobody seems to have solved this.
11:43:08  <Rubidium> in OpenTTD's implementation
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11:47:20  <planetmaker> use stations as waypoints
11:47:28  <planetmaker> and go via orders
11:47:39  <planetmaker> and use only so many vehicles as the road network supports
11:48:41  <xiong> planetmaker, I've been thinking about ordering with waypoints. I imagine I can untangle things eventually if, essentially, I bypass the pathfinder and specify routing for each vehicle.
11:49:27  <xiong> "How many vehicles the network supports" is kinda vague. I have plenty of open road; the vehicles just don't want to use it.
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11:50:39  <xiong> They all want the "best" road, which then, obviously, becomes the worst road. They just don't see that. I read a forum discussion about pathfinder inspection of traffic. Apparently, there isn't any.
11:51:35  <George> Rubidium: Do tileas location checks are done?
11:52:16  <George> I mean what CBs already happened before CB14B & CB14C
11:52:37  <xiong> The critical comment, seems to me, was that you might look ahead at a tile and see it was occupied by a vehicle; but you couldn't tell which way it was going. This seems to me to be a straw man. Traffic on a road should be a discouragement to getting on that road, regardless of direction.
11:55:03  <xiong> I don't see a Requested Feature on this, only that forum post. Is there a moratorium on pathfinder improvement? Should I write this up, perhaps with a use case savegame? Is this a dead issue?
11:56:38  <xiong> BTW, I've turned off road vehicle queuing; 'off' seems to help a lot.
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12:19:16  <xiong> Does that mean your philosophy is to "chill"?
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12:50:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i could say something, but that wouldn't really help his monologue :p
13:04:48  <George> Rubidium: what CBs do already happened before CB14B & CB14C?
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13:05:56  <Wolf01> hello
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13:07:56  <Yexo> xiong: I think (never tested it) that checking for traffic on the complete route will cause serious slowdowns
13:08:19  <Yexo> of course if you manage to write an implementation that is not a lot slower than yapf while improving the situation that would be very welcome
13:08:39  <xiong> Yexo, That's a consideration. Hundreds of vehicles, testing at each junction the state of the road ahead...
13:09:14  <xiong> Yexo, Did you get the penntowns files?
13:09:28  <Yexo> no, I didn't
13:09:36  <planetmaker> <-- George
13:09:44  <Yexo> please mail them or send them via pm on tt-forums
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13:11:47  <xiong> Yexo, Is no good?
13:12:19  <Yexo> is the correct address
13:12:45  <planetmaker> I think Fred had the same problem with those kind of e-mails
13:13:09  <xiong> I'll try again.
13:13:43  <xiong> Sent.
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13:15:21  <xiong> Oh, I'm not quite correct that YAPF is fully deterministic. There is some sort of randomization or some dynamic weighting; I'm not sure what. But the tendency is strong for road vehicles to pick a "best" route, regardless of traffic ahead.
13:16:38  <xiong> Actually looking ahead all the way to dest would be not only time-intensive; it would be unrealistic. If random numbers were cheaper, I'd say just to introduce a certain amount.
13:17:21  <Terkhen> xiong:
13:21:40  <xiong> Terkhen, Interesting. Don't know why searches didn't turn that up for me. Perhaps it's just the high volume of forum posts in general. So, it looks good -- what happened? That last version looks to have been done in 2007.
13:21:53  <Terkhen> I don't know
13:22:04  <Terkhen> Roujin does not seem very active lately
13:22:40  <xiong> Perhaps I should Be Bold and stick it in Requested Features -- as 99% done. Just needs to be merged into trunk.
13:23:52  <Yexo> are you talking about the wiki page?
13:23:59  <Yexo> stick in there what you want, but it's mostly ignored
13:25:27  <xiong> I am talking about the wiki page. If it's mostly ignored, then what?
13:26:35  <Terkhen> the usual path is to code, mantain and update the patch, take into account comments and reviews and post it to the bug tracker
13:27:53  <xiong> I don't see much in the way of negative comments in that thread.
13:29:02  <Yexo> it looks like that topic attracted some spammers and was mostly ignored (except by terkhen)
13:30:00  <Terkhen> either I lost interest or I was not able to update the patch easily anymore
13:30:28  <Terkhen> yeah, my memory is as bad as that
13:33:13  <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't know if it is a good(TM) solution either; my knowledge of pathfinder is very sketchy
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13:35:11  <Yexo> xiong: at the tiem you sent a mail I also send a mail to myself from another account. My own mail arrive 10 minutes later but I still haven't received your email
13:35:12  <xiong> Well, Terkhen, it appears you did well enough. That's certainly off my orbit.
13:36:12  <xiong> Yexo, I don't have a bounce.
13:36:32  <Yexo> I'll let you know when (if) I receive it
13:36:39  <xiong> Is there some sort of spamtrap built into that mail server?
13:36:51  <xiong> Perhaps it doesn't like my origin.
13:36:58  <Yexo> could be
13:38:21  <planetmaker> it has actually quite a good one
13:39:02  <xiong> Yexo, Resent from an entirely different account and server.
13:39:17  <xiong> If you get one and not the other, please do let me know.
13:39:22  <Yexo> ok
13:40:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r21318 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix: parameters to ShowErrorMessage() were swapped when content download failed
13:43:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r21319 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix: crash when creating file download by the content download system failed
13:43:43  <SmatZ> what a sensible commit message :x
13:44:05  <planetmaker> :-)
13:44:46  <planetmaker> what type of wagon transports cement?
13:46:26  <Wolf01> tankers usually
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13:49:47  <Yexo> xiong: received mail from email at mochamail
13:51:10  <xiong> Yexo, Thanks. Clearly, there's an issue with the other origin. I'm not into sending out spam; so I don't know why.
13:51:46  <Yexo> I never receive the mail, so it must be either something on your end or something on
14:01:52  <George> planetmaker: <-- George  --> Does it mean the industry tiles CBs happen later, so that the tile can report: "impossible to build" and the industry would not be built?
14:02:23  <planetmaker> I read it as "industry tile CB happens later", yes
14:02:48  <planetmaker> probably that'd be the result. But I'm very unfamiliar with those code pieces, too
14:03:29  <George> So CB14B&14C do not have any tile related information defined
14:04:22  <planetmaker> having only read through that function: yes
14:11:25  <Yexo> George: no, callback 2F has already been called before, but the tiles haven't actually been built yet
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14:25:36  <Belugas> hello
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14:37:03  <xiong>
14:42:40  <lugo> tl;dr ;)
14:50:06  <glevans2>  <-- did I miss something...?
14:52:04  <Terkhen> glevans2: what OS are you using?
14:52:14  <glevans2> debian
14:52:17  <Rubidium> I guess some Unix, but not Mac OS X
14:52:26  <Rubidium> without fontconfig-dev
14:53:36  <Rubidium> oh, and you miss r21230
14:53:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21320 /trunk/src/fontcache.cpp: -Fix (r21298): somehow a semicolon got lost
14:53:44  <Rubidium> uhm r21320
14:55:22  <glevans2> ahh, so I need to added fontconfig-dev... is that a recent dependency addition?
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14:57:29  <Rubidium> glevans2: if 4 years and 8 days is recent, then yet it's a recent new (optional) dependency
14:57:46  <Rubidium> otherwise, updating to svn HEAD should fix the compilation problem
14:58:25  *** rhaeder [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:59:40  <glevans2> I only asked because it's not mentioned here -->
15:01:57  <Rubidium> then please update that page
15:02:11  <glevans2> ok
15:02:40  *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@] has joined #openttd
15:18:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r21321 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix (r21298): use the correct font sizes when checking for missing glyphs
15:19:30  *** dfox [] has joined #openttd
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15:20:43  <Thror> hi
15:22:28  <glx> hi
15:23:25  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
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15:24:19  <supermop> hello
15:24:32  <planetmaker> hi
15:25:11  <supermop> hows it going?
15:25:12  <Rubidium> openjdk-6/6b18-1.8.3-1 <- I would start hating java just because of the version number of Debian's package
15:29:21  <FauxFaux> I hate C and C++ because the Sun C compiler is terrible, too.
15:30:51  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
15:33:31  <Wolf01> FauxFaux, there's no more Sun, only darkness
15:33:57  <fjb> So true.
15:36:04  * fjb hates nonstandard implementations of snprintf().
15:37:27  <Rubidium> fjb: you mean those that don't zero terminate?
15:38:38  <Rubidium> fjb: or the libc4 version of snprintf?
15:38:45  <fjb> No, those that return the number of characters they actually printed instead of the number of characters they would have printed if there would have been no overrun.
15:39:18  <planetmaker> :-D
15:39:19  <fjb> That is libc4?
15:39:41  <Terkhen> :)
15:39:43  <Rubidium> fjb: no, libc4 just passed it on to sprintf (totally ignoring the limit)
15:40:05  <Rubidium> so Linux's snprintf is nonstandard?
15:42:05  <Rubidium> hmm, no... the documentation is just a bit sketchy on that
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15:45:02  <fjb> No, it is an older version of eCos. They fixed it in a new version. But I'm stuck at the older one.
15:45:26  <fjb> Don't know about Linux.
15:48:24  <fjb> Bad thing is you can not detect if it is truncating the output.
15:48:48  <Rubidium> just assume ret == size - 1 => truncation happened :)
15:50:52  <fjb> That is my work around. But what if the not truncated size was size -1?
15:51:43  <SmatZ> then you will get a false negative
15:51:54  <SmatZ> does that case matter much?
15:52:10  <SmatZ> you should be able to detect it by running a program
15:52:21  <SmatZ> in cofigure time if host==target...
15:52:33  <SmatZ> or just use your own replacement that works in all cases :)
15:52:46  <SmatZ> and #define snprintf
15:53:03  <SmatZ> and #define snprintf mysnprintf
15:54:08  <fjb> Speed matters and I have to convert everything to ascii. I an own snprintf is no option at the moment. That false negative case will not happen that often, but it may have an impact if it happens.
15:54:51  <fjb> And I'm still not convinced that using an ascii protocol is a good idea when speed matters.
15:56:43  <fjb> But the most annoying thing is that I spent some time to find why my code was not working.
15:58:37  <SmatZ> if happens the corner case, allocate 1 byte longer buffer and try to snprintf to it
15:58:44  <SmatZ> then compare returned values
15:58:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21322 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_game.cpp: -Fix [FS#4268] (r20924): packets were leaked
15:58:48  <SmatZ> or something like that :)
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15:59:10  <SmatZ> if you can't do that in compile-time
15:59:38  <fjb> No space for that buffer and no time to do the snprintf twice every time.
16:00:14  <fjb> The data is run time generated.
16:00:42  <Rubidium> what kind of data? Simple strings, or are more complex string formats being used?
16:01:13  <fjb> Depends, integers are the easy case, but also floats.
16:01:53  <fjb> Converting floats to ascii is really no fun.
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16:02:45  <Rubidium> and copying snprintf from the newer library and using that? Or isn't there enough space on the device at all?
16:03:23  <SmatZ> snprintf(buf, "%f", f); is always slower than conver_float_to_ascii(buf, f);
16:03:59  <SmatZ> *I forgot one parameter...
16:04:23  <fjb> Copying the newer version of the library may be an option. I have to investigate.
16:05:02  <fjb> Hm, have to look if eCos has convert_float_to_ascii().
16:05:59  <fjb> No, it doesn't.
16:07:56  <SmatZ> you are a smart guy, you will find the best solution for sure :)
16:08:58  <V453000> beer!
16:09:03  <SmatZ> beer!
16:09:48  * Rubidium hides
16:11:09  <supermop> beer is good
16:11:37  <SmatZ> :)
16:11:54  <supermop> no beer here today though
16:12:00  <supermop> but there is pie instead
16:12:08  <SmatZ> I would prefer the beer
16:12:12  <V453000> no pie matches beer
16:12:15  <SmatZ> :P
16:12:16  <Rubidium> <- I beg to differ; I hide from that beer
16:12:23  <SmatZ> :D
16:12:27  <V453000> omg :D
16:12:36  <supermop> beer + pie
16:12:45  <V453000> piebear?
16:12:46  <SmatZ> ugh :)
16:13:22  <supermop> oatmeal stout +apple pie + vanilla icecream
16:13:37  <SmatZ> +beer?
16:13:38  <V453000> you forgot the main thing
16:13:42  <Terkhen> :D
16:15:27  *** Arie- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:16:29  <planetmaker> seven beer are also a small meal. And then you didn't even drink anything!
16:17:08  <SmatZ> :)
16:18:30  <V453000> wise man has spoken
16:18:55  <SmatZ> :-)
16:18:59  <planetmaker> :-P
16:23:38  <b_jonas> I don't understand. the "" main page has a thumbnail labelled "Latest User Screenshot". but it links to a page of screenshot thumbnails and that image isn't among them.
16:25:36  <Rubidium> it isn't even the latest...
16:25:48  <Rubidium> ... or a 1.x screenshot
16:25:49  <planetmaker> It's just an image button :-)
16:28:18  <SmatZ> people can submit screenshot to that page?
16:28:44  <SmatZ> drop a mail to info@openttd...
16:28:45  <SmatZ> ok
16:28:47  <SmatZ> :)
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16:32:32  <SmatZ> green-devil@seen
16:32:37  <SmatZ> @seen green-devil
16:32:37  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen green-devil.
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16:37:59  * Rubidium wonders by Liberci sounds familiar
16:38:26  <Vaca> hi everyone, i have just finish compiling ottd 1.0.5 for Mac OSX 10.6.X intel - because since version 0.7 no new version is downloadable. I also made an executable app for OSX. Does someone want it to to put it on the sites?
16:39:28  <Rubidium> putting your binary on our site (i.e. * implies that Mac OS X is supported, which isn't the case
16:39:33  <planetmaker> There are various threads with those
16:39:50  <planetmaker> Compiling is also not the problem. Maintaining
16:41:15  <Vaca> ok, thanks and bye
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16:42:44  <planetmaker> that was... quick
16:43:34  <V453000> czech people cant waste time they could spend by drinking beer
16:43:46  <planetmaker> :-D
16:43:47  <V453000> >p
16:43:49  <V453000> :p
16:43:53  <SmatZ> :D
16:44:36  <Rubidium> oh, I know Liberci because of the crappy route to Germany from there
16:44:43  <V453000> :D
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16:44:48  <V453000> yes, thats pretty sucky
16:44:49  <SmatZ> :D
16:45:11  <V453000> thats where I live btw :P
16:46:50  <Rubidium> although I reckon the route became much better recently
16:47:59  <Rubidium> given they joined the EU and as such (I assume) the Poland -> Germany border control isn't quite there anymore
16:50:53  <George> How to add a GRF in the existing game/scenario?
16:52:29  <Ammler> George: there is a new developer setting in the cfg for it
16:53:12  <George> thank you
17:00:15  <planetmaker> you qualify to use the newgrf_developer_tools ;-)
17:00:51  <planetmaker> which also, btw, gives you an ingame sprite alignment tool as well as a variable and callback debug window
17:02:27  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
17:08:32  <George> CB28 var80    W    Coordinates of the selected position
17:08:42  <George> What would be on large maps?
17:09:35  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:10:21  <Rubidium> OpenTTD probably happily returns a dword
17:12:05  <George> so checking second byte would be also x coordinate instead of y?
17:12:45  <Rubidium> that'll depend on the map
17:13:09  <Rubidium> for a 64x64 map only the first 6 bits will be x
17:13:19  <Rubidium> for a 2048x2048 map the first 11 bits will be x
17:13:30  <George> so, 2 checks required in newgrf? map size and position size?
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17:14:40  <Rubidium> I guess so
17:15:04  <George> :(
17:15:10  <Rubidium> I wonder where you'd use the position for anyways
17:15:20  <George> for farms
17:15:32  <Rubidium> in what way?
17:15:49  <George> To prevent them appear near the border
17:16:10  <Rubidium> what's the problem with them being near the border?
17:16:17  <SmatZ> 		case 0x80: return industry->location.tile;
17:16:30  <George> In TTD there was a bug feature, that fields were plant on the other side of the map
17:16:44  <Rubidium> oh, so it's only needed for TTDPatch
17:17:03  <Rubidium> then just jump over the check for OpenTTD :)
17:17:10  <George> In OTTD the field would not cross the border?
17:17:19  <glx> why would it ?
17:17:22  <Rubidium> no
17:17:34  <George> ok
17:18:09  <Rubidium> and if they (still) do, then that's a bug in OpenTTD
17:18:19  <George> what is the best way to check the distance to the map border? (In CB 28)
17:20:00  <George> Also for layout check. If I check the tile for FF  (empty tile) would it be success if behind the boder or not?
17:20:05  <Rubidium> getbyte 1: 00..20 goto near border, E0..FF goto near border, default: check byte 2
17:21:09  <Rubidium> that's basically how varact2 works, right? Get some data and compare it to some range to jump to another (var)action2?
17:21:14  <George> and what would be in case 2048x2048? I would get not y coordinate there
17:21:34  <George> and for 64x64 it is also wrong to test e0-ff?
17:21:38  <Rubidium> but you don't need it in OpenTTD as the farms don't wrap around
17:22:55  <George> Currently I'm not thinking about the reason for effect, I'm thinkig for a code :)
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17:23:26  <George> so, what about layout check FF
17:24:43  <George> industry layouts prop 0A
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17:25:36  <Rubidium> that ignores borders IIRC
17:29:19  <supermop> pie is almost ready
17:29:40  * Rubidium ponders what kind of dinner to make
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17:30:27  <George> ignores means the tile outside the border is always free or always used?
17:31:19  <Rubidium> I think free as you can build oil rigs quite close to the border
17:31:44  <George> how to prevent it in a best way?
17:31:58  <George> (coding fishing grounds)
17:32:16  <George> I want it to be at least 10 tiles from border
17:32:24  <planetmaker> uh?!
17:32:27  <planetmaker> Why that?
17:32:50  <planetmaker> That makes it difficult to place them in a coastal setup
17:33:06  <George> ?
17:33:19  <George> planetmaker: what coastal?
17:33:27  <supermop> ok time to cut up turkey
17:33:50  <planetmaker> xxxxx|~~F~
17:34:00  <planetmaker> ^ where each character is like 3 tiles
17:34:14  <planetmaker> and x is land, ~ is water and F is your industry
17:34:36  <planetmaker> well. I generally see no need to forbid fishing grounds near-map-border placement
17:34:36  * Rubidium wonders why Samu hasn't modified strings that actually need to use the gender of its substring
17:34:51  <George> coast can be on the border
17:34:54  <planetmaker> But I guess I'm missing out on something there
17:35:36  <planetmaker> you want it 10 tiles from land or from border?
17:36:13  <George> I did it 10 tiles from land already. Now I need 10 tiles from border
17:36:34  <George> 8B    W    Distance to the closest water tile if property 1A bit 2 is clear (built on land); distance to the closest empty dry land tile if property 1A bit 2 is clear (built on water)
17:36:35  <planetmaker> hm, still: why?
17:36:50  <George> Because it looks ugly
17:37:06  <planetmaker> alright...
17:37:17  <George> it would be OK if there is water all around ...
17:37:18  <planetmaker> they'd never show up on my favourite map style then, I guess
17:37:28  <George> there was a GRF in TTDP for that
17:37:45  <planetmaker> uhm... outside the map there's *nothing*.
17:37:49  <planetmaker> Neither land nor water
17:37:59  <George> But it looked as water
17:38:16  <planetmaker> then replace the black tile by a water tile.
17:38:26  <George> then an idustry near the border looked like in the open water
17:38:28  <planetmaker> Some early pre-base set OpenGFX newgrf implemented that
17:39:04  <George> Unfortunately it would look bad, because in OTTD the boder can be high land
17:39:29  <planetmaker> but then it'd fail due to the check of land nearby already.
17:39:44  <planetmaker> And I don't see where the border is land and the land check would say 'water'.
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17:40:26  <Yexo> planetmaker: due to the possibility that the border is land you can't replace the black tile with water, as that would glitch
17:40:45  <George> Yexo: yes
17:40:53  <Yexo> as such, tiles around are black, not water, so it's impossible to create the illusion of the fishing grounds being at see while they're actually at the border of the map
17:41:02  <Yexo> s/see/sea/
17:41:15  <George> Yexo: correct!
17:41:31  <planetmaker> that's what you mean :-)
17:41:37  <planetmaker> yes
17:41:48  <George> Yes, sorry for my bad english
17:41:53  <planetmaker> evil Yexo-feature breaking that :-P
17:41:58  <frosch123> @kban melody_tunes spam
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17:42:03  <Yexo> I see no easier way other than checking the map size and using industry var 80
17:42:48  <George> Yexo: May be we can have one more var for CB 28 - distance to the boder?
17:44:19  <Yexo> that is possible, however I think it's not needed that often and it can already be computed in nfo
17:45:08  <George> it is required for in sea industries. That is not much, but I hope it is also not hard to implement?
17:45:23  <planetmaker> <-- consider also such maps, George :-)
17:46:01  <Yexo> planetmaker: I don't see a problem for such maps, although 10 tiles is maybe a bit much
17:46:08  <planetmaker> the point
17:46:17  <George> fishing grounds on the top looks located fine
17:46:18  <Yexo> but if the minimum distance from land is also 10 tiles there is not much change
17:46:27  <planetmaker> I didn't find any location which had 20x20 free water
17:46:57  <George> it is not 20x20. It is D=20
17:46:58  <planetmaker> that's 5 tiles from land
17:47:10  <planetmaker> 10 tiles = 20x20 free
17:47:26  <planetmaker> with industry in the middle
17:47:34  <planetmaker> by my understanding
17:48:02  <planetmaker> 5 tiles would work nicely here, though
17:48:49  <George> Doesn't it Euclidean distance? So it is D=20, not 20x20
17:49:26  <planetmaker> what is D=20?
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17:49:46  <planetmaker> distance?
17:49:52  <planetmaker> or diameter?
17:49:57  <George> diameter
17:50:26  <planetmaker> My bet is on manhattan distance
17:51:19  <planetmaker> but actually, near the upper ship one has about 30x30 tiles free water :-)
17:51:44  <George> So you would get it :)
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17:52:16  <planetmaker> possibly yes. Could I build it still everywhere I want in both scenario editor and ingame as player?
17:53:14  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
17:53:16  <George> In editor - yes. As player - no. It is raw material industry. Prospect only
17:53:23  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
17:53:42  <Samu> hi. what is the string code for ticker news? are they equal to what the newspaper show?
17:53:47  <George> Anyway, exact values are a question for a separate discussion
17:53:52  <planetmaker> it's a setting. I can chose to buy raw  industries
17:54:10  <planetmaker> at 10x the cost
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17:56:34  <George> you would have the same conditions as in game builder while prospecting
17:56:49  <George> Only SE disables restrictions
17:56:56  <George> most restritions
17:57:07  <George> Some staye even in SE
17:59:15  <Samu> where do I see ticker news in the web translator?
18:01:12  <frosch123> Samu: yes, they are the same
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18:02:06  <Samu> ah
18:03:21  *** X-2 [] has joined #openttd
18:06:27  <Samu> {YELLOW}Arrival of first vehicle at player's station
18:06:46  <Samu> own company's station I think
18:08:02  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
18:09:38  <frosch123> afaik no
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18:42:34  <Samu> ok
18:42:45  <Samu> trying to add genders now to news messages
18:43:01  <Samu> about 80 messages or so
18:43:54  <Samu> how does it work exactly? I have 5 genders
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21323 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 19 changes by VoyagerOne
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 212 changes by Rubidium
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 19 changes by jpx_
18:44:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 16 changes by glx
18:44:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 15 changes by planetmaker
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18:47:20  <Samu> ok, I have set genders to industries
18:47:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21324 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: load of failures of WT3 to properly validate some strings...
18:47:34  <Samu> now how to i make it work during news messages?
18:52:24  <Rubidium> you use it like {P ..} but... it needs 5 parameters (in the order from the gender setting) instead of 2
18:52:56  <Rubidium> e.g. "{G m f n mp fp} {STRING}"
18:53:40  <Samu> do da de dos das
18:54:00  <Samu> d{G o a e os as} {STRING}
18:54:02  <Samu> like that?
18:54:07  <Rubidium> yes
18:54:19  <Samu> ah,thanks
18:55:28  <Wolf01> lol, I read d{G o a t se}
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18:56:22  <SmatZ> :D
18:57:16  <Samu> what if I don't want to add any character?
18:57:21  <Rubidium> ""
18:57:37  <Samu> then it becomes 2 spaces
18:57:42  <Samu> how do i remove 1 space
18:57:59  <Rubidium> huh? what becomes 2 spaces?
18:58:12  <Rubidium> example please
18:58:33  <Samu> o a "" os as
18:58:41  <Samu> each one being a word
18:59:10  <Samu> something something gender-goes-here something
18:59:21  <Rubidium> then add the space to the other strings: foo{G " o" " a" "" " os" " as"} bar
18:59:57  <Samu> ok ty
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19:04:50  <Samu> can I set gender to stations?
19:04:52  <Samu> station names?
19:05:16  <Rubidium> yes
19:05:25  <Rubidium> just not the custom station names
19:06:03  <Samu> ok, I better not then
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19:06:11  <Samu> or not yet
19:06:30  <Rubidium> why?
19:06:37  <Samu> 1 thing at a time
19:06:43  <Samu> or I get everything messed up
19:07:10  <Rubidium> better do it right when you can do it right; after all, you probably can't get the gender of NewGRFs right either (unless you start sending patches to those NewGRF developers)
19:08:52  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
19:08:57  <andythenorth> evaning
19:09:00  <andythenorth> and bah
19:09:05  <Samu> what does the All string do?
19:09:09  <Samu> All gender
19:09:28  <Rubidium> not set a gender?
19:09:46  <Samu> hmm
19:09:49  <Rubidium> which is basically defaulting to the first gender
19:09:59  <Samu> ah :( that's bad
19:10:14  <Samu> can you switch n to first then?
19:10:19  <Samu> not switch
19:10:20  <Samu> move
19:10:29  <Samu> n m f mp fp
19:10:44  <andythenorth> all I wanted was more beautiful smoke for ships
19:10:51  <andythenorth> what I got was an MB argument :(
19:10:54  <Rubidium> I really hope you haven't added much {G .. .. .. .. ..}s yet
19:11:03  <Samu> haven't added any yet
19:11:38  <andythenorth> Hirundo: I feel I should in some way apologise :P
19:11:53  <Samu> but i have set genders already to industries
19:12:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21325 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt: -Change: the order of Portuguese genders
19:12:12  <Rubidium> Samu: setting genders isn't a problem; those don't depend on the order of genders
19:12:24  <Samu> ok, let me check
19:12:28  <Rubidium> the {G .. .. .. .. ..} does depend on the order of the genders
19:14:00  <Zuu> Out of interest, is gender a plural-thing, or how does you relate it to the variable part of the string?
19:14:30  <Rubidium> Zuu: what do you mean with "variable part"?
19:15:00  <Zuu> Eg. the number or string that is inserted in the middle of a string for example.
19:15:13  <Zuu> Eg. a vehicle number, industry name etc.
19:15:47  <Zuu> eg {STRING}
19:15:52  <Rubidium> it's like plural, but plural is for numbers and gender is for (sub)strings
19:16:47  <Rubidium> but for genders you need to manually set the gender of the (sub)strings whereas for plurals a generic method is used to determine the plural based on the value of the number
19:18:07  <Samu> my problem was uknowing when a string is a town or a industry
19:18:15  <Samu> ty
19:18:43  <Samu> for now towns have no gender
19:18:44  <Zuu> so if a language have genders, there is some additional controls to define the gender of eg. a industry name. Makes me happy Swedish does not have genders :-)
19:18:53  <Rubidium> {INDUSTRY} means it's an industry. Likewise {TOWN} is a town (without a gender)
19:19:11  <Samu> what about subsidies?
19:19:13  <Rubidium> Zuu: yes
19:19:17  <Samu> string string string string
19:19:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: if there is one thing smoking, it's the discussion :p
19:20:28  <andythenorth> grrr
19:20:32  <Samu> subsidy awarded to string! string from string to string will pay 50% more for the next year
19:20:47  <andythenorth> mb is actually really quite rude
19:20:55  <SmatZ> andythenorth: at forums?
19:20:56  <Samu> those strings can be towns or
19:21:00  <Samu> industries
19:21:00  <Hirundo> Because He is always Right
19:21:15  <andythenorth> the "name" thing is incredibly rude, at least in native english
19:21:32  <andythenorth> if the man's going to argue, why doesn't he at least just argue
19:21:57  <Terkhen> arguing would imply that he's at the same level than the person he's arguing with
19:22:18  <Samu> help me
19:22:26  <andythenorth> can we code better smoke instead?  Ideally breaking existing newgrf spec :P
19:22:30  <andythenorth> that would be fun
19:22:32  <Samu> when I am awarded a subsidy for transporting passengers from a town to another
19:22:39  <Samu> the string becomes town?
19:22:57  <Samu> what if I am awarded a subsidy transporting coal ?
19:23:08  <Samu> string becomes industry?
19:23:16  <Yexo> Samu: those strings can indeed be either industries or towns
19:23:22  <Samu> ah, ok
19:23:22  <Yexo> or even stations? not sure about that
19:23:23  <SmatZ> it will be replaced by name of industry or town
19:23:44  <Samu> name of industry is gender sensitive?
19:23:57  <SmatZ> I think you can't do anything with that
19:24:07  <Yexo> I think you'd need to use {G 0:1 ....} or something like that
19:24:18  <SmatZ> depends what you want to do :)
19:24:26  <SmatZ> but those are {RAW_STRING}
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19:24:39  <Yexo> in that case I don't think it'll work at all
19:24:42  <SmatZ> they are simply printed to buffer as {TOWN} or {INDUSTRY}
19:25:39  <Samu> what do I do now?
19:25:50  <SmatZ> just leave it imperfect :P
19:25:52  <Yexo> ignore genders for the subsidy strings
19:26:26  <Samu> ok
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19:37:16  <Samu> hmm
19:37:25  <Samu> you have string in nearly all news messages
19:37:49  <Samu> new string under construction near town!
19:38:37  <Samu> new string being planted near town!
19:38:53  <Samu> string announces imminent closure
19:42:35  <Belugas> string annoucing snow is gonna fall
19:43:32  <Samu> so, what do I do?
19:44:51  <Samu> ignore these too?
19:48:54  <Yexo> those strings are the industry type names, those can have genders
19:49:26  <Samu> :)
19:49:43  <Samu> ok, let's hope I don't break something
19:52:11  <planetmaker> [20:44]	<Belugas>	string annoucing snow is gonna fall <-- I don't need the future tense for that
19:52:56  <andythenorth> play arctic in tribute :P
19:53:04  * andythenorth should add some more snow to FIRS
19:53:10  <andythenorth> no snow here, just fricking cold
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19:53:57  * andythenorth is sick and bored
19:54:01  <andythenorth> and grumpy
19:54:31  <Belugas> friday should be the day of the big first fall of the dardned white stuff
19:55:11  * Belugas cuddles andythenorth nearby the fireplace, with hot chocolate and rum
19:55:22  <andythenorth> sounds a bit wrong
19:55:30  <Belugas> FEELS
19:55:32  <Belugas> not sound...
19:55:48  <andythenorth> Belugas: these are near you, shall I put one in HEQS?
19:55:49  <Belugas> mmh... right... fireplace makes noise..
19:56:08  <Samu> i have a question
19:56:18  <Samu> {BIGFONT}{BLACK}Nov{G o o a os as} {STRING} est{G á á á ão ão} a ser plantad{G o o a os as} em {TOWN}!
19:56:29  <Samu> new forest is being planted near town
19:56:32  <supermop> feels right to me
19:56:36  <Belugas> so i can crush my colleagues!  YES SIR ANDY!
19:56:59  <Samu> how do I fix the G thing
19:57:16  <Belugas> i'll tune it to A
19:57:19  <Samu> they're all related to the first gender
19:57:26  <Samu> first string
19:57:27  <Belugas> oh... thing.. not string
19:57:47  <Yexo> {G 0:1 o o a os as} I think
19:58:03  <Yexo> it should only be needed for the first G
19:58:29  <Yexo> if it works for the first one but not for the second and third, it's only needed for the second and third :p
19:58:48  <Samu> nova floresta está a ser plantada em town
19:59:06  <Samu> novos cogumelos estão a ser plantados em town
19:59:17  <Samu> novo singal está a ser plantado em town
19:59:31  <glx> indeed the first G needs an extra arg
19:59:45  <glx> because it's before the {STRING}
20:00:02  <Yexo> I wasn't sure whether it referenced the string before or after
20:00:14  <Samu> town gender doesn't matter
20:00:33  <Samu> gender is all dependent on the {string}
20:00:42  * andythenorth might have to somewhat cheat the speed of a Nodwell
20:00:46  <andythenorth> 9mph is....slow
20:01:11  <supermop> well
20:01:19  <Yexo> {{BIGFONT}BLACK}Nov{G 0 o o a os as} {STRING} est{G á á á ão ão} a ser plantad{G o o a os as} em {TOWN}! <- that should work
20:01:41  <Samu> ty
20:02:15  <supermop> with roadtypes 9mph could be usefull
20:02:31  <Zuu> andythenorth: A bus for HEQs?
20:02:33  <supermop> some indeterminate time in the future
20:03:03  <andythenorth> Zuu: I was thinking the same
20:03:06  <andythenorth> I've been in that bus
20:03:07  <glx> Yexo: no ;)
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20:03:47  <Yexo> more mistakes besides the missing { before BLACK ?
20:04:05  <glx> {{BIGFONT}BLACK} ;)
20:04:27  <glx> it's not missing it's before {BIGFONT}
20:04:44  <Yexo> oh, I see
20:04:52  <glx> anyway I just checked french translation and no 0 there
20:05:58  <Zuu> btw biking with a dynamo (electricity generator powered lamp) in the snow makes biking in snow even more interesting. Since the snow gives lower grip for the dynamo I need to bike farily fast to get light which makes a challenge with snowy bike paths. :-)
20:06:16  <Yexo> why is french using {NBSP} before the ! in some strings but not in others?
20:06:27  * andythenorth biked in the snow last year
20:06:28  <andythenorth> and fell off
20:06:39  <Zuu> ouch
20:06:39  <SmatZ> :P
20:06:51  <glx> things to fix then :)
20:07:34  <Samu> hmm a problem again
20:08:22  <Zuu> I tried to kick my front wheel to move a part out of place so it doesn't cause snow comming up all the time, but accidently got my foot into the wheel so it stoped. Fortunately I wasn't biking very fast. :-)
20:08:36  <Samu> {BIGFONT}{BLACK}{G 0 "" O A Os As} {STRING} anunci{G a a a am am} fecho iminente!
20:08:41  <Samu> is this gonna work?
20:08:55  <Samu> there will be a space
20:09:04  <Samu> at the start if the industry has no gender defined
20:09:12  <glx> there will be nothing
20:09:19  <glx> "" means empty
20:09:41  <Samu> yes, it must be empty
20:09:49  <Samu> but not with a space after that
20:10:00  <Samu> it's the elimination of the first word
20:10:03  <glx> there will be a space before {STRING}
20:10:16  <Samu> how do I remove that
20:10:17  <Yexo> change it to {G 0 "" "O " "A " "Os " "As "}{STRING}
20:10:23  <Samu> ah
20:10:25  <Samu> I see
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20:22:43  <glx> Yexo: I found 5 missing {NBSP} ;)
20:23:34  <Yexo> so it was pure conindicence I stumbled over one while looking at a single translation in that language file
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20:43:46  <Zuu> Yexo: Now we got an "IdleMore" on bananas :-)
20:45:32  <Zuu> And if ever someone wants some new features send their patches to me so we don't get a IdleLess as well :-p
20:45:33  <Yexo> Zuu: did you write the shortname in caps like most shortnames?
20:45:59  <Zuu> Yexo: no, because Idle had it in lowercase and I really didn't think.
20:46:13  <Zuu> I can change it if it matters.
20:46:28  <Yexo> it doesn't matter, as long as they are unique
20:46:44  <Yexo> and idmo!=IDMO
20:46:54  <Zuu> ok
20:47:08  <Yexo> what was the shortname for Idle ?
20:47:13  <Yexo> just "idle" ?
20:47:17  <Zuu> "idle" IIRC
20:47:49  <Zuu> hmm, no
20:47:54  <Zuu> it was "Idle"
20:47:58  <Zuu> With an uppercase I
20:48:25  <Zuu> So now you got all kind of cases :-)
20:48:50  <Zuu> Sorry for the mess
20:49:00  <Yexo> np, doesn't matter really
20:49:17  <Yexo> I'm actually not sure how useful that list is, but it makes it easy to check if a shortname is already used
20:49:41  <Yexo> basically it's there to prevent the current mess with grfids where there are duplicates
20:49:55  <Yexo> but bananas does a good job of that too, so it's not so important anymore
20:50:22  * Alberth pondered adding urls of threads to it a long time ago
20:50:56  <Alberth> ie so it could serve as an index
20:51:06  <Zuu> Yep, I actually rellyed on that I don't recall any AI that would be shorten as idmo and the fact that bananas would reject duplicates so I was a bit lazy and didn't check the list. If I would have checked the list, I would probably have realized that I should have used upper case. :-)
20:51:57  <Zuu> Bananas works farily well as an index as well.
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21:21:08  * Devedse waves hello to everyone
21:21:24  * Zuu waves back
21:21:31  * Devedse smiles
21:21:32  <SmatZ> hello
21:21:41  *** supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
21:22:20  <Devedse> pff I need to run setup.exe from a non bootable disk
21:22:32  <planetmaker> hello
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21:23:08  <frosch123> evening again :)
21:23:42  <planetmaker> g'evening again, too :-)
21:29:37  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
21:29:42  * andythenorth wonders how animation works
21:30:38  * andythenorth figures it out
21:30:47  <planetmaker> varaction2 seuqence: check animation frame and branch
21:30:49  * Devedse thinks that andy figured it out fast
21:30:56  <planetmaker> set animation speed via property
21:31:01  * andythenorth read own previous code
21:31:12  <andythenorth> I animated a wind turbine
21:31:16  <planetmaker> :-)
21:31:18  <andythenorth> I forgot about that
21:31:27  <andythenorth> hmm
21:31:29  <planetmaker> hm... Wind turbine...
21:31:34  <planetmaker> Nice New Object :-)
21:31:38  <andythenorth> wind farms - new industry or new object?
21:31:45  <planetmaker> Both :-)
21:31:58  <planetmaker> the question is, though, what the wind farm produces. Wind?
21:32:04  <planetmaker> packed in little boxes?
21:32:08  <andythenorth> planetmaker: there's one in the FIRS repo, do you want to lift it and ship a new object?
21:32:10  <SmatZ> :D
21:32:22  <andythenorth> planetmaker: electricity of course :|
21:32:43  <planetmaker> which you clubed down into stone age and it doesn't dare to come back agaon ;-)
21:32:46  <andythenorth> town control :P
21:32:54  <planetmaker> you killed its older brother, the power plants
21:33:07  <andythenorth> I will restore them if TownControl appears
21:33:16  <planetmaker> FIRS 2.0 ;-)
21:33:20  <andythenorth> indeed
21:33:31  <andythenorth> FITS
21:33:37  <andythenorth> FITS Industry Town Set
21:33:45  * Devedse is trying to push the addition of worm holes into openttd
21:33:46  <planetmaker> lol
21:33:57  <planetmaker> Devedse: they're there for ages...
21:34:11  <Devedse> $_$ where :D
21:34:18  <planetmaker> called tunnels and bridges
21:34:42  <Devedse> :>, is it possible to use them as real wormholes?
21:35:07  <planetmaker> Rather make ultra-fast trains
21:35:16  <planetmaker> on a wormhole track or so
21:35:30  <Devedse> hmm
21:35:39  <planetmaker> after all wormholes only speed up things to 10x usual warp or so ;-)
21:35:58  <Devedse> Can't you like set a tunnel start point at 1 - 1 for example and the endpoint at 255 - 255
21:36:00  <Devedse> ?
21:36:07  <SmatZ> I am not sure if real wormholes would work with pathfinders
21:36:35  <SmatZ> if they don't expect planar map
21:36:38  <planetmaker> obviously diagonal tunnels and bridges are not implemented, Devedse
21:37:03  <andythenorth> opengfx smoke for power plant is quite nice
21:37:11  <Devedse> planetmaker, so it would only work straight, so just as a verry long tunnel but when a train enters it its speed increases by 10 times or so?
21:37:12  <planetmaker> but honestly, the much easier path: create an engine with max newgrf-able speed in tunnels. Normal otherwise
21:37:19  <planetmaker> or along those lines
21:37:42  <planetmaker> yes
21:38:25  <Devedse> Can the pathfinder give priority's to fast speed tracks?
21:38:51  <planetmaker> <-- see e.g. there. you have means to check the track type, the presence of a tunnel, ... so that's what you can do
21:39:03  <planetmaker> you could alternatively just define a wormhole track type
21:39:18  <planetmaker> and increase speed on that track type to insane. Then you can have anything you want
21:39:29  <planetmaker> except you'll have to make engines aware of that type.
21:39:41  <planetmaker> you could even make them somewhat invisible then
21:39:52  <planetmaker> the path finder prefers fast tracks already
21:41:05  <Devedse> planetmaker, lol it's pretty fun to look at all that stuff in that link, seeing that the shadow of a plane isn't an actual shadow but just an object :D
21:41:28  <planetmaker> nah, not an object. It's another vehicle ;-)
21:41:35  <Devedse> even better ^
21:41:49  <planetmaker> same as the electric sparks actually, or the smoke
21:41:51  <Samu> hi
21:41:51  <Devedse> (don't you love old school graphics)
21:42:04  <planetmaker> I guess... that's why I love this game
21:42:08  <Terkhen> using the shadow of an aircraft to carry mail is one of the most mindblowing parts of the code IMO :)
21:42:12  <Samu> I edited some in notepad
21:42:22  <Devedse> Terkhen lolwut O_O
21:42:28  <Samu> but I'm not really sure if it's going to be correct once I send to webtranslator
21:42:29  <Devedse> is that really implemented that way ?
21:42:31  <planetmaker> Devedse: that's the main purpose
21:42:32  <Terkhen> yeah
21:42:33  <planetmaker> ;-)
21:42:35  <Devedse> wtf xDDD
21:42:42  <Terkhen> a vehicle can only carry one kind of cargo, so...
21:42:48  <Devedse> lolololol
21:42:49  <Devedse> xDD
21:43:00  <Samu> trains can carry more
21:43:03  <planetmaker> call it hack. call it genious. It's a close call
21:43:06  <planetmaker> Samu: no
21:43:10  <Terkhen> it is a bit scary when you get to know the code so well that these kind of details start making perfect sense
21:43:13  <planetmaker> vehicle = one wagon or so
21:43:17  <planetmaker> not the whole train
21:43:23  <andythenorth> makes complete sense
21:43:25  <Samu> aircraft
21:43:28  <Samu> passenger and mail
21:43:42  <planetmaker> did you follow the conversation or just make random comments?
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21:43:48  <Samu> I didn't
21:43:49  <Devedse> it's awesome
21:43:49  <Devedse> xD
21:43:54  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I know, but my first reaction was quite similar than Devedse's :P
21:44:40  <Samu> {BIGFONT}{BLACK}Produção de {STRING} {G 0 em no na nos nas} {INDUSTRY} aumenta {COMMA}%!
21:44:43  <Devedse> Next time I see an aircraft flying above me I'll search for it's shadow to see if they didn't forgot the mails :>
21:44:45  <Samu> is the G 0 correct there?
21:44:50  <Hirundo> andythenorth: In your interest, I shall not reply to your smoke topic until *someone* splits off all the offtopic stuff
21:44:55  <planetmaker> hehe
21:45:12  <andythenorth> thanks :D
21:45:17  <planetmaker> Hirundo: did you report the posting you want split off?
21:45:24  <andythenorth> I feel bad for starting it though Hirundo :o
21:45:39  <Hirundo> I can't blame you for MB invading your topic
21:45:40  * planetmaker strangely doesn't feel bad about that
21:45:44  <Samu> there are 3 things there
21:45:58  <Samu> {string} {industry} {comma}
21:46:01  <Hirundo> I reported the first post, with the message that I requested splitting
21:46:07  <Samu> the gender only applies for industry
21:46:10  <planetmaker> uhm, ok
21:46:16  <Samu> is it correct the way I did?
21:46:17  <andythenorth> maybe I should invade DB set with some random complaints about its FIRS incompatibility
21:46:19  <andythenorth> or such
21:46:37  <Devedse> Planetmaker, so why isn't there actually something used as an array to be able to put multiple goodies in 1 vehicle?
21:46:55  <Hirundo> you should not do any further FIRS releases, just drop random comments about it and occasionally show screenshots
21:46:57  <andythenorth> Devedse: not how it works :P
21:47:15  * Devedse is currently running windows 7 setup from the windows vista recovery disk, now i got 2 setup windows lol
21:47:16  <planetmaker> nah, andythenorth. Niveau is not a cream
21:47:27  <andythenorth> Hirundo: more importantly, compare all other works to the brilliance of my unreleased set
21:47:38  * andythenorth is done defending mb, he was rude
21:47:45  <planetmaker> Devedse: because it isn't. One vehicle, one cargo. Simple
21:47:54  <Devedse> okie :D
21:48:03  <planetmaker> it's a 16 year old game after all
21:48:17  <Samu> anyone help?
21:48:22  <frosch123> btw. was there a result in that topic?
21:48:23  <planetmaker> and the newgrf specs are like 6? 8? years old or so
21:48:37  <planetmaker> frosch123: the result is: Hirundo is of course all wrong.
21:48:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: there was a result that I am slightly cross :P
21:48:52  <planetmaker> There can only be one interpretation of the specs
21:48:53  <Devedse> planetmaker, did you actually use the code from the old ttd or is it a complete remake after the same idea?
21:49:05  <frosch123> i read that hirundo documented some different behaviour of ottd and ttdp
21:49:17  <planetmaker> it's a re-write
21:49:28  <Hirundo> Around 4 years ago, peter changed the code to call CB 10 more often but didn't document that in the specs
21:49:52  <frosch123> so, would dbset work acording to the specification for ttdp, or does ttdp not match the specs either?
21:49:54  <Devedse> planetmaker, so that doesn't actually make it 16 years old right?
21:50:14  <Hirundo> I have no clue whether TTDP lives up to the specs exactly
21:50:17  <planetmaker> OpenTTD: not. TTD: yes. And all the specifiaction yes.
21:50:36  <planetmaker> The basic assumptions and behaviour are copied 97.5%
21:50:36  <Hirundo> Recently, I changed OTTD to match the specs more closely, that caused breakage in the dbset
21:50:43  <Devedse> planetmaker, ah ic
21:50:55  <Hirundo> s/changed/submitted patches to change/
21:51:23  <Devedse> I can remember me playing the old ttd :>
21:51:31  <andythenorth> if we call cb10 even more frequently, and put extra info in the cb result, will that break db set further :P
21:51:42  <planetmaker> not really
21:51:58  <frosch123> "it only applies for train wagons that would by default be powered (i.e. property 1B is set)" <- that sentence confuses me. does ottd not do that?
21:51:59  <Hirundo> basically the DBSet was sortof broken for 4 year, but it didn't trigger for the DBSet because of other issues
21:52:15  <frosch123> here you made it sound as if it was only about when the cb is called
21:52:18  <Hirundo> @commit 5061
21:52:19  <DorpsGek> Hirundo: Commit by peter1138 :: r5061 trunk/train_cmd.c (2006-05-31 18:00:08 UTC)
21:52:20  <DorpsGek> Hirundo: - NewGRF: always use visual effect callback if it is defined, not just for powered wagons.
21:52:30  <planetmaker> frosch123: it's a matter how you read it. Whether you read it "and nothing else matters" or "this is one precondition"
21:52:36  <Devedse> @commit 1
21:52:36  <DorpsGek> Devedse: Commit by truelight :: r1 / (202 files in 13 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
21:52:37  <DorpsGek> Devedse: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
21:52:45  <Devedse> :(
21:52:53  <Hirundo> ^^ OpenTTD doesn't do that since then
21:53:00  <Samu> G 0 what does the 0 means in this case?
21:53:20  <glx> arg 0, ie the {STRING}
21:53:23  <frosch123> so, peter broke it?
21:53:32  <Samu> ah
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21:53:40  <Samu> only string?
21:53:44  <Samu> {string} {industry} {comma}
21:53:51  <glx> 0 is the string
21:53:53  <Hirundo> he, like me, assumed that grf authors code sanely
21:53:57  <glx> 1 is the industry
21:54:01  <glx> 2 is the comma
21:54:06  <Samu> ah, ok, thank you
21:54:07  *** Chillosophy [] has quit []
21:54:10  <planetmaker> frosch123: in principle yes. But the specs IMOH can also be interpreted that OpenTTD fulfills them.
21:54:14  <Devedse> In what language are the newgrf files written actually?
21:54:14  <Samu> ok, then I got some stuff to fix
21:54:15  <planetmaker> It's a matter of semantics
21:54:16  <frosch123> Hirundo: i would rather expect that someone like pikka asked peter to change it
21:54:33  <Zuu> Devedse: nfo
21:54:39  <planetmaker> nml ;-)
21:54:55  <Samu> sometimes I see 0:1
21:54:55  <glx> hexadecimal :)
21:54:56  <Belugas> numbers
21:54:58  <Samu> 1:1
21:55:00  <Samu> what is that?
21:55:01  <andythenorth> insanity
21:55:04  <Hirundo> frosch123: That'd make sense
21:55:17  * Devedse is scared of hexadecimal assembly code >:O
21:55:22  <planetmaker> Samu: take your IRC backlog from yesterday. You were told back then. you asked the same thing
21:55:38  * andythenorth wants to encode nfo by drawing
21:55:39  * Zuu suggest that Devedse takes a look on nml
21:55:47  <Devedse> JMP EA0E839A EABFF291 <--- scary
21:55:49  <glx> Samu: second arg of the first arg
21:55:51  <andythenorth> a bitmap could encode hex nicely
21:56:02  <SmatZ> Devedse: looks like far jump
21:56:06  <frosch123> Hirundo: actually i read peters change as "also call it for engines"
21:56:07  <andythenorth> 'graphical nfo'
21:56:18  <Samu> confused
21:56:18  <Devedse> the only jumps I like are the ones in platformers
21:56:24  <frosch123> which actually surprises me, if ttdp does not allow changing the effect for engines :s
21:56:26  <planetmaker> <-- does that look readable enough, Devedse
21:56:32  * andythenorth wonders if photoshop would parse nfo
21:57:08  <Devedse> planetmaker, that looks readable AND a lot of work :>
21:57:21  <Belugas> a car can be frigthening to a pygme, simply becasue he does not know what it is.  Once you know whta it is, it';s not
21:57:23  <planetmaker> he. Yeah. Wrote that :-P
21:57:30  <Hirundo> peter's commit calls the CB for everything but articulated parts
21:57:34  <Belugas> thus, it's ignorance that one fears
21:58:33  <planetmaker> Devedse: but simple things are quite simple.
21:58:49  <planetmaker> What you see there is basically a re-implmentation of all default train vehicles
21:59:15  <planetmaker> with some extras
21:59:35  <planetmaker> so a single engine is much easier
22:00:05  * andythenorth wonders if there are any common image formats that are just encoded as a stream of bytes, 1 per pixel
22:00:16  <planetmaker> <-- this already defines a whole tram.
22:00:33  <planetmaker> You just need to throw in the graphics file which is mentioned in its source additionally
22:01:48  * andythenorth is amused by watching HEQS download numbers increase :)
22:02:04  <planetmaker> :-)
22:02:13  <andythenorth> bananas changelog field?
22:02:15  <Devedse> planetmaker, I don't know if I really wanna spent a lot of time on it :P, I got some other games to create to ^^.
22:02:22  <planetmaker> the nice thing about HEQS is: it always fits, andythenorth ;-)
22:03:31  * fjb loves the cargo trams from HEQS.
22:03:38  <andythenorth> hmm
22:03:44  <andythenorth> bananas src used to be in my repo
22:03:50  <andythenorth> I have mislaid it
22:04:43  <andythenorth> ah hah
22:05:10  * andythenorth wonders if anyone could be persuaded to commit a change to this: 	description    = models.CharField(max_length = 512, blank = True, verbose_name = "Description")
22:05:25  <frosch123> Hirundo: according to ttdp source, 00..0F count as 40 for wagons
22:05:35  <frosch123> 	// for wagons, 00..0F counts as 40 (no effect) here
22:05:37  <andythenorth> max_length = 768 might be better
22:05:45  <Hirundo> frosch123: file/line?
22:06:00  <frosch123> multihd.asm
22:06:07  <frosch123> lin 1234
22:07:27  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:09:48  <frosch123> is there any benefit in the new ottd behaviour?
22:10:23  <frosch123> if ttdp and ottd 1.0 agree on an behaviour, imo the specs should be fixed and we should not invent some new behaviour, unless there is a good reasoni
22:10:33  <andythenorth> fjb: one thing about trams is - no smoke.  So uncontroversial :D
22:10:44  * fjb needs to learn more about gdb. :(
22:10:53  <andythenorth> hmm
22:10:55  * fjb does not smoke.
22:11:03  <andythenorth> trams *should* have sparks though :o
22:11:11  * andythenorth sense HEQS 0.9.6 soon
22:11:12  <planetmaker> frosch123: the pro of as now is that it's much cleaner.
22:11:28  <planetmaker> without quirks
22:12:01  <fjb> How do I halt a running target to debug it using gdb?
22:12:03  <Terkhen> andythenorth: HEQS breaks my partial refit patch :(
22:12:21  <andythenorth> or vice versa :P
22:12:23  <planetmaker> fjb: stop or quit
22:12:28  <Terkhen> :P
22:12:48  <andythenorth> Terkhen: simply add rv-wagons and the problem goes away
22:12:51  <Terkhen> but frosch is right, so it does not matter much
22:12:54  * andythenorth tries some code
22:13:14  <frosch123> hmm?
22:13:29  <Hirundo> frosch123: the reason for the current behaviour is that 0 .. 0F is explicitly defined as 'use effect from prop19'
22:13:56  <fjb> planetmaker: Thank you.
22:14:42  <frosch123> ttdp and ottd 1.0 use "prop19 is always no effect for unpowered wagons" , right?
22:14:58  <fjb> It did not stop. Do I have to prefix the stop command?
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22:15:27  <frosch123> wasn't there also something like "powered wagons" take only effect if there is a livery override, or something like that?
22:15:56  <Hirundo> yes
22:16:17  <planetmaker> fjb: is it running right now? Then try first ctrl+c
22:16:26  <frosch123> so, the visual effect would also only take effect if there is a livery override
22:16:30  <planetmaker> then you'll get the gdb console again
22:16:48  <Devedse> Anyone tried the luukland servers before?
22:17:04  <fjb> planetmaker: Remote embedded device connected via jtag and openobdc...
22:17:39  <planetmaker> which implies...?
22:18:26  <planetmaker> fjb: <-- that works for me
22:18:27  <Hirundo> so something like if(!v->IsEngine() && v->GetPoweredPartPower() == 0) then no effect?
22:18:29  <fjb> ctrl+c shows no effect.
22:19:18  <fjb> planetmaker: Thank you. I will try it.
22:19:46  <planetmaker> the stop and quit while there's no console won't help you though and have no effect...
22:20:06  <andythenorth> ha ha, trams with sparks :D
22:20:14  <fjb> andythenorth: Nice.
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22:22:09  <Samu>
22:22:14  <Samu> check that out! :p
22:23:51  <andythenorth> night
22:23:52  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:26:09  *** _Terkhen_ [] has quit [Quit: ...]
22:28:36  <Hirundo> frosch123: should powered wagons (with livery override) use the engine class of the front engine?
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22:37:05  <fjb> planetmaker: The command needed was: monitor halt
22:37:39  <planetmaker> interesting. thanks
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22:38:48  <frosch123> Hirundo: sounds plausible, no idea though
22:39:41  <frosch123> i remember that the power computation uses the type of the frontengine to decide whether a powered wagon is powered on the current railtype
22:40:48  <frosch123> night though
22:41:05  <frosch123> i will likely be only shortly here tomorrow, and then sunday again :)
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22:47:49  <Devedse> planetmaker, did you really create the planet?
22:47:55  <planetmaker> yes
22:48:07  <Devedse> And I always thought it was god :'(
22:48:27  <planetmaker> I only say: 42
22:49:28  <Zuu> be kind to planetmaker or you never know what happens to earth ;-)
22:49:43  <planetmaker> :-P
22:49:58  <Samu> can you please verify my new entries to webtranslator?
22:50:03  <planetmaker> Especially as I come from a country whom is said of that people like highways here ;-)
22:50:14  <Samu> I won't be able to download a trunk that early
22:51:55  <Devedse> planetmaker, would that be germany :o?
22:52:20  <Zuu> But now we seem to get colder winders due to global warming. :-)
22:52:25  <Zuu> winters*
22:52:39  <planetmaker> I saw the first snow flakes of this winter here today
22:53:03  <planetmaker> ...?
22:53:09  <Devedse> nvm :P
22:53:18  <Zuu> Did I claim that global warming is bullshit?
22:53:28  <Zuu> If I did, I'm sorry if you mistaken me.
22:53:36  <Devedse> Zuu, Iáž¿ just joking
22:54:18  <Devedse> But yea I saw hail here yesterday
22:54:24  <Devedse> Only in my town though
22:54:44  <Zuu> Btw, driving an etanol car in the winter is interesting. It really does start badly when the engine is cold. :-)
22:55:27  <Prof_Frink> I want snow :/
22:56:14  <Devedse> lol after installing the ati drives on a computer the screen is totally messed up
22:56:16  <Devedse> :SS
22:56:22  <Zuu> When it gets warm it is just as usual. So after you have parked it and want to go again you have forgoten that you need to push extra hard on the gas pedal no not make it die. :-)
22:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> I saw the first snow flakes of this winter here today <-- strange, we had snow here already yesterday
22:57:16  <Devedse> Well I'm off
22:57:17  <Devedse> cya guys
22:57:27  *** Devedse [] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg]
22:57:40  * Zuu goes to bed as well
22:57:46  <SmatZ> good night Zuu
22:57:57  * planetmaker , too
22:58:03  <planetmaker> Good night :-)
22:59:21  <Samu> hey
22:59:29  <Samu> is someone checking?
23:00:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: maybe I missed them yesterday. It's not like I'm looking out of the window the whole day ;-)
23:01:05  <Samu> what happens if I ruined something in the translation? Can I revert to a previous version?
23:01:31  <SmatZ> good night planetmaker, too :)
23:05:43  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:07:12  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
23:09:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21326 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: off-by-one in case choice list construction causing case lists to fail completely
23:09:59  *** welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
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23:13:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21327 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: cases are always "off-by-one" w.r.t. to the case table as there is an implicit default case with index 0
23:13:05  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has joined #openttd
23:13:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21328 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: pass the case id when resolving NewGRF strings as well
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23:21:27  <AveiMil> meh
23:21:30  <AveiMil> item(FEAT_AIRCRAFT, SampsonU52, 0)                   { property { cost_factor: 7*param[50]/100;   running_cost_factor: 3*param[55]/100/param[59];  speed: 31 nfo; vehicle_life: 16; model_life: 16; retire_early: 0; } }
23:21:38  <AveiMil> I startup a game in 1928 (intro date of Sampson)
23:21:55  <AveiMil> Fast forward to 1945, expecting the Sampson not to be available for purcahse anymore
23:21:59  <AveiMil> but it still is
23:22:07  <AveiMil> am I mistaken in how this works?
23:22:33  <avdg> <- is the table of content missing section 2.2?
23:23:36  <Wolf01> AveiMil, persistent engines setting?
23:24:02  <AveiMil> i turned off veihcles never expire if that's what you mean
23:26:00  <Yexo> AveiMil: according to
23:26:06  <Yexo> The number of years that this model can be bought in the game (if PersistentEngines is off). Usually this should be at least twice or three times as long as the vehicle life. When starting a new game, a random amount between 31 months and 17 years is added to this as well.
23:26:54  <AveiMil> seems it dissapeard in 1949 in this game
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23:27:55  <Xaroth> 31 months and 17 years?!?
23:27:58  <Xaroth> that's a bit steep innit
23:28:13  <Xaroth> getting yer last electric train when you get maglev :P
23:28:43  <AveiMil> not quite I understand the purpose of retire_early
23:29:06  <Yexo> there are 3 phases for every vehicle model. phase 1 is between 7 and 38 months (randomly)
23:29:13  <AveiMil> "	Number of years before model_life when no new vehicles can be bought. May be negative."
23:29:36  <AveiMil> That speaks to me that if model life is 16 and you set 14 retire early value, you can build the aircraft for 2 years after its introduction date
23:29:37  <AveiMil> meh
23:29:41  <Yexo> phase 2 is the amount of years set with the model_life property - 8 years + a random number of months between 0 and 15
23:30:35  <Yexo> phase 3 is between 10 and 20.5 years (randomly)
23:32:11  <AveiMil> so I don't have any direct control over this
23:33:11  <Yexo> if you use early retirement it'll be unavailable after: phase1+phase2 - retire_early (in years, so *12)
23:33:30  <AveiMil> vehicle_life: 16; model_life: 16; retire_early: 10;
23:33:37  <AveiMil> I do that and load up a game in 1928
23:33:49  <AveiMil> I can't even build an airplane then because Sampson ain't available
23:33:55  <AveiMil> airport*
23:34:13  <Yexo> you can change that
23:34:13  <Xaroth> FF a few years?
23:34:14  <AveiMil> how is that possible?
23:34:23  <Yexo> small airport should be available though
23:34:38  <AveiMil> oh right phase2 is model life minus 8
23:34:45  <AveiMil> what's iwth the minus8!?!
23:35:03  <Yexo> don't wonder about it, just accept it
23:35:08  <Yexo> it's the newgrf specs
23:35:14  <Yexo> there are lots of random surprises like that
23:35:29  <AveiMil> so about 1+16-8-retire_early
23:35:48  <AveiMil> and 9  minus 10 is minus 1
23:35:56  <AveiMil> thus youcannot build a sampson in 1928
23:36:00  <AveiMil> OKOK
23:36:31  <Yexo> or in other words: you can never buy it
23:36:44  <AveiMil> yup
23:36:46  <Yexo> and the small airport is only available when at least one aircraft is available (you can change that too)
23:36:58  <AveiMil> mm
23:37:02  <AveiMil> thanks
23:37:04  <AveiMil> gtg, gn
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23:47:10  <Katje_> is there an easy way to see all shared routes?
23:50:46  <avdg> nope
23:51:10  <avdg> but you can see the vehicles in a shared orders group
23:52:10  <avdg> the only 'clean' way to organise stuff is using the groups in the vehicles window
23:53:01  <Katje_> thought as much
23:53:15  <Katje_> when you forget to start it that way, and you have 110 trains to deal with....
23:53:53  <avdg> yes, thats a known problem
23:54:11  <avdg> and happens a lot in games I play
23:54:11  <Katje_> would be so handy if you could create a route, with zero trains on it
23:54:16  <Katje_> then ssign trains to each route
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23:55:16  <avdg> there are plans to improve the organisation of routing, through I don't know how many stable patches are available
23:56:08  <Katje_> ok
23:56:22  <Katje_> hmm, I need a nice junction design for 2 tracks joining 4 tracks...
23:56:42  <Katje_> also, is there a nice way to automatically renew all my stock? the "this train is really old" messages are pissing me off..
23:56:55  <Katje_> and with 2 billion in the bank, I would rather just auto renew it all
23:56:58  <avdg> there is
23:57:23  <avdg> check the advanced settings under section vehicles iirc
23:57:37  <Katje_> not something I can do within the game?
23:58:18  <avdg> yes, you can
23:58:22  <Katje_> oh
23:58:31  <avdg> just 'advanced settings' in the config menu
23:58:42  <Katje_> didn't know that
23:58:51  <avdg> its a bit searching, but once you got it, it simply works
23:59:00  <avdg> <- what about this design :p
23:59:19  <Katje_> hmm, this train is 149 years old...
23:59:19  <avdg> <- have fun
23:59:54  <avdg> on openttdcoop, we never replace vehicles (only refitting)

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