Log for #openttd on 27th November 2010:
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00:55:54  <Wolf01> 'night
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06:18:39  <Markavian>
06:19:03  <supermop> very beautiful
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07:42:04  <andythenorth> new disaster framework :O
07:42:16  <supermop> !?
07:42:21  <andythenorth>
07:44:39  <supermop> hmm
07:44:49  <supermop> i want newgrf disasters
07:45:03  <supermop> well i never play with disasters on
07:45:34  <supermop> but some less silly ones with gameplay considerations could be nice
07:48:29  * andythenorth isn't sure about disasters
07:48:32  <andythenorth> I always turn them off
07:48:39  <supermop> yeah
07:48:42  <supermop> me too
07:48:45  <supermop> since 94
07:49:14  <supermop> i do not need UFOs on my railroad
07:52:16  <supermop> how is the smoke coming?
07:52:28  <andythenorth> supermop: stuck
07:52:52  <andythenorth> I hit the limit of what I can fool with in ottd source
07:53:00  <supermop> hmm
07:53:13  <supermop> you were trying to ge multiple funnels?
07:54:24  <andythenorth> I have a hack that can hard code smoke to multiple funnels
07:54:29  <andythenorth> and place it correctly
07:54:34  <andythenorth> but it's a hack :P
07:54:55  <andythenorth> when it comes to extending newgrf callbacks correctly, I am baffled
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07:57:48  <supermop> hmmm
07:58:15  <supermop> well callbacks baffle me even at their simplest
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08:03:23  <supermop> hmmm its 3 am
08:03:31  <supermop> i should go to bed
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08:30:41  <planetmaker> g'morning
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09:12:07  <xiong> Derailment disaster if rails aren't well maintained. Avoidable by running work trains periodically over the entire network. After <date>, introduce railsters.
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09:21:20  <IchGuckLive> Hi all from snowy Germany, i got so many problems with Signals ,Trains crashing  or blocking. now i build a simple example scenario for testing and im more confused then bevore
09:21:42  <IchGuckLive> here is the scenario basic pic ->
09:22:20  <IchGuckLive> i want to run at least 3 trains  the sig on the Route are one way path-signals
09:22:47  <IchGuckLive> witch sig do i have to put infront of the stations
09:22:51  <Hirundo> The X at the bottom station is missing a track piece
09:23:04  <IchGuckLive> :D thanks
09:24:04  <IchGuckLive> if i put 2way block siugnals there the train is running to the station and blocks the train in the station for going out
09:24:48  <IchGuckLive> or shoudent i put any signal there
09:25:11  <IchGuckLive> so the ai is searching for a path
09:26:26  <Zuu> If you want block signals you should use those with a tall white bar.
09:26:52  <Zuu> hmm, though your existing signals are they block signals or path signals?
09:27:06  <IchGuckLive> path one way
09:27:11  <xiong> IchGuckLive, Couple of points about signals: If you mix block and presignals with path signals, you are likely to have troubles.
09:27:17  <Zuu> Okay, then no signals at the stations.
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09:27:39  <Zuu> I first though they looked like yellow horizontal bar block signals.
09:27:56  <IchGuckLive> so shoudt i go first for the hole game with pathsignals
09:28:12  <Zuu> I suggest sticking to path signals.
09:28:28  <Zuu> I only mistaken your placed signals for block ones.
09:28:40  <xiong> Also, consider where your trains are going to sit when they are waiting at a red. I find it easiest to put a signal down immediately after a junction; then click-drag to place additional signals the correct distance out. Then remove the first signal, because it's in the worst place.
09:29:47  <xiong> Path signals are easiest to work. If you can cover an entire network with only one-way paths, it's a snap. That won't always be possible, though.
09:30:35  <IchGuckLive> ok thanks it seams to run
09:31:29  <xiong> Also, strongly suggest you note that it's extremely difficult to tell one signal from another. If you ever use more than one kind, you'll need to tell them apart. The ? tool will tell you the type. You will have to look very closely to figure out the facing. There is no help for indication if a signal is facing away from you.
09:33:14  <Terkhen> good morning
09:33:20  <IchGuckLive> i will go on with all your advises
09:33:41  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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09:34:38  <Rubidium> moi Terkhen
09:34:58  <IchGuckLive> on more question on the breakdowns moin planetmaker
09:35:18  <IchGuckLive> the numbers in the config are they in Frames
09:35:56  <IchGuckLive> first-breakdown means 500frames from leaving the depo?
09:36:41  * planetmaker is totally out of the frame and has no idea
09:38:12  <IchGuckLive> npf.npf_rail_firstred_penalty = 1000 -> less is faster brakedown  ?
09:38:42  <planetmaker> no
09:39:06  <planetmaker> those settings are ALL totally unrelated to the breakdown of vehicles
09:39:13  <planetmaker> it's pathfinder stuff
09:39:25  <IchGuckLive> so there is for eatch train a brakdown conter and the red signal will set this to 1000
09:39:30  <planetmaker> and if you mess with them don't complain about strange train behaviour
09:39:44  <planetmaker> again: no
09:40:03  <planetmaker> it's a pathfinder penalty
09:40:12  <IchGuckLive> ok
09:40:30  <IchGuckLive> is there value i can change in the config to have less breakdowns
09:40:38  <planetmaker> it gives the influence of a red signal on the way a train choses to its destination
09:40:48  <planetmaker> in the difficulty settings
09:41:04  <planetmaker> 'none', 'reduced' and 'normal'
09:41:32  <IchGuckLive> vehicle_breakdowns = 0
09:44:13  <IchGuckLive> thank you i go shuffeling snow
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09:45:53  <planetmaker> shuffling snow. Interesting ;-)
09:45:54  * Zuu is happy to only have a balcony to care about :-)
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10:24:41  * andythenorth wonders about bulldozer speeds
10:24:50  <andythenorth> they are way too fast in HEQS :P
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10:26:43  <Rubidium> I'm fairly certain they can go 100 km/h given the right environmental circumstances
10:28:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth: tanks can go up to 100km/h, too.
10:28:26  <planetmaker> and they're fairly similar with their traction type
10:29:42  <Rubidium> in my case there wouldn't be much traction :)
10:29:49  <andythenorth> most bulldozers travel about 3mph
10:29:59  <andythenorth> faster destroys the tracks
10:30:21  <andythenorth> and also the final drives - there is often *no* suspension on the drive sprocket
10:30:50  <Rubidium> pff... in my case it's not the speed that destroys the tracks, rather the sudden eventual deceleration
10:33:48  <Terkhen> they can reach even higher speeds if you get a cannon with the right size
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10:46:18  <andythenorth> hmm
10:46:28  <andythenorth> bulldozers are slow, expensive to buy and expensive to run
10:46:34  <andythenorth> why did I put them in game?
10:46:36  <andythenorth> :P
10:47:07  <Terkhen> that is probably why I'm always using the big trucks only
10:47:25  <Rubidium> andythenorth: so you can use the graphics of the bulldozer in FIRS
10:47:36  <andythenorth> mostly I think I just like them
10:47:45  <andythenorth> they would make more sense with roadtypes
10:48:16  <Terkhen> they would be able to drive over cheaper roads?
10:48:54  <andythenorth> free roads
10:49:08  <andythenorth> one thing about bulldozers - expensive, but road cost = zero :P
10:49:46  <andythenorth> ooh
10:49:54  <Terkhen> hmm... but roads are not very expensive anyways, they would make sense if standard roads were more costly
10:50:02  <andythenorth> on a slope > 2 tiles long, the bulldozers perform about same as default coal trucks
10:50:07  <andythenorth> and carry more cargo
10:50:49  <andythenorth> that advantage is somewhat offset by the existence of other HEQS trucks :P
10:51:07  <Terkhen> :)
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10:58:15  <Terkhen> <--- do you think that this warning is big enough now?
10:58:55  <Terkhen> hmm... maybe I should add a yellow, blinking title
10:59:21  <Alberth> more red colours :p
10:59:32  <Alberth> and perhaps an indication of the size?
10:59:57  <Terkhen> hi Alberth :)
11:00:07  <Alberth> hi Terkhen
11:00:08  <Terkhen> indeed, some numbers might make the warning scary enough
11:01:05  <__ln__> Terkhen: replace the download url with one generated by
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11:04:05  <Alberth> hmm, why does r19285 point to a changeset instead of a revision?
11:05:02  <Alberth> also for r21044
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11:06:28  <Ammler> Alberth: branch 1.0 maybe?
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11:07:44  <Alberth> for r19285, that may be useful indeed
11:07:56  <fjb> Moin
11:08:11  <Terkhen> hi fjb
11:08:24  <Alberth>  this one thus :)
11:10:16  <Alberth> but then you also need a setence to explain what to do with trunk imho
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11:26:39  <andythenorth> when using year cheat, it would be nice to have a text box
11:26:58  <andythenorth> (I have to use year cheat a lot for testing newgrf)
11:27:45  <Alberth> clicking at the year does not work? (or double clicking, I don't remember exactly what is used normally)
11:29:58  * Rubidium wonders what Alberth is talking about?
11:30:28  <Alberth> some andy trying to cheat years easier
11:30:57  <Alberth> at the world-generation window, you can click at the year to get a text box
11:31:13  <Alberth> not everybody knows that
11:35:29  <andythenorth> doesn't work in the cheat window
11:35:39  <andythenorth> the world-gen window example is what made me think of it
11:46:24  <Alberth> wouldn't it be easier to load a couple of save games instead?
11:47:54  * Alberth ponders a newgrf test environment
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12:06:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: save games don't really cover it for checking vehicle intro dates, properties that change over time, industry availability etc ;)
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12:09:10  <Terkhen> @commit 19397
12:09:10  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by terkhen :: r19397 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp) (2010-03-13 10:18:57 UTC)
12:09:11  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Add: Enter the starting year at the scenario editor by clicking at the date panel.
12:09:20  <Terkhen> andythenorth: like this but for the cheat gui?
12:09:38  <andythenorth> yes
12:10:09  <Terkhen> I'll take a look at it later
12:11:20  <andythenorth> thanks
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12:20:54  <Terkhen> <--- this might be the craziest junction I have ever seen
12:24:17  <Alberth> there is actually structure in it? It looks one random mess of tracks :)
12:26:33  <Terkhen> the trains are moving without problems through it, so I guess it has some kind of structure even if I'm not able to discern it
12:31:49  <avdg> oh yes, there is structure :p
12:37:05  <Terkhen> :)
12:37:54  <Ammler> a kind of circle
12:39:24  * andythenorth is confused
12:40:21  <andythenorth> 16t, 160hp, FF coeffecient TE == 159KN tractive effort
12:40:40  <andythenorth> 28t, 260hp, FF coeffecient TE == 28KN tractive effort
12:40:53  <andythenorth> isn't something quite wrong here?
12:42:29  <Terkhen> hmmm... something seems wrong indeed
12:43:38  <Terkhen> are you using the new road vehicle properties for CB36?
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12:46:31  <andythenorth> Terkhen: far as I know I am
12:46:53  <andythenorth> code is similar for both
12:47:05  <andythenorth> seems like coeffecient of TE might not be used by one
12:47:16  <Terkhen> if you get different TE when using CB36 and without, the cause might be some unit conversion error in the evaluation of the callbacks
12:47:45  <andythenorth> seems one of them isn't using prop 18 correctly
12:47:48  <andythenorth> I'll have to see why
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12:52:27  <Terkhen> hmm... that might be the error... if the TE property is not set for a road vehicle, it will use the default TE coefficient, but what happens if the TE is set via callback?
12:52:29  <Terkhen> let me check
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12:54:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21336 /trunk/src/core/random_func.cpp: -Fix (r21030) [FS#4274]: compile failure when desync debugging is enabled (fonsinchen)
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12:57:21  <andythenorth> Terkhen: in this case I'm not setting TE via cb
12:57:38  <andythenorth> but I am setting weight
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12:58:09  <andythenorth> hmm
12:58:13  <andythenorth> it's limited to just one vehicle type
12:58:18  <andythenorth> must be a problem with the action 0
12:58:34  <AveiMil> 0.5 out :)
13:02:53  <andythenorth> 46km / h ships :D
13:03:46  <andythenorth> not a realism mod then ;)
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13:06:47  <andythenorth> Terkhen: solved
13:06:52  <andythenorth> it's an esoteric issue
13:07:24  <andythenorth> when handling cb36, the default result has to be made to fail to handle props that I don't want to change
13:07:37  <andythenorth> the way to make it fail is to return a regular action 2 ID as a result
13:07:46  <andythenorth> it has to be a valid action 2 ID though
13:07:56  <andythenorth> mine wasn't :P
13:09:25  <Ammler> AveiMil: planes should load/unload much longer imo
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13:12:25  <Alberth> aound 1/24 day in reality @ 2.2 seconds .... 0.1 second should be enough :p
13:12:27  <Ammler> you could mesure with a lot of the biggest planes on the international airport, every terminal should be occupied
13:13:22  <Ammler> Alberth: around 10 times of a train
13:14:04  <Alberth> just kidding :)
13:14:26  <Ammler> well I wasn't :-P
13:15:49  <Alberth> but I agree, it can be a step towards reducing the quick profits of planes
13:17:35  <Ammler> it would make the big airports useable
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13:18:04  <Ammler> else it is just a "fly through port"
13:18:08  <Wolf01> hello :D
13:18:18  <Ammler> tschau Wolf01
13:18:50  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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13:22:28  <Wolf01> is still impossible to make a feature to build 2 different track types on one tile? I say the diagonal ones for example
13:22:51  <Wolf01> or is it beacuse is too much work for too little benefit?
13:24:27  <Rubidium> has it ever been impossible?
13:25:15  <Wolf01> I don't remember, I usually use only electrified railway :D
13:26:01  <Wolf01> in TTD it wasn't possible, I'm sure about this
13:26:48  <Rubidium> you are talking about the impossibility to implement a feature, and so am I
13:27:13  <Rubidium> i.e. I'm not saying it's currently possible in OpenTTD, just about the fact that it never has been impossible to implement
13:27:41  <Alberth> mostly just like subways are not impossible :p
13:28:08  <Wolf01> ah, ok
13:28:41  <Alberth> diagonal seems to be the best option to me, crossings would be 'interesting' at least.
13:29:23  <Alberth> I don't know how many bits you'd need to store railtypes in the tile, and how many there are in that case
13:29:27  <Rubidium> maglev-rail crossings are conceptually impossible
13:30:01  <Wolf01> maglev road crossings too, but we have them
13:30:02  <Alberth> I'd agree with that
13:30:16  * Rubidium blames Chris for that
13:30:27  * Rubidium guesses Fred should fix that
13:31:25  <Wolf01> disallow level crossings via newgrf would be cool
13:33:39  <Alberth> in the general case, you should allow different companies too at  the same tile (at least for diagonal), but that takes a lot more bits
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13:38:35  <Rubidium> Wolf01: :) (it's not my work, just don't know whether the person who has worked on that wants the rest of the world to know who that is)
13:39:26  <Wolf01> uhm, ok, it's already possible
13:39:38  <Wolf01> I didn't remember abou that :P
13:39:45  <Wolf01> *about
13:40:31  <Wolf01> I want to experiment a bit with NuTracks
13:40:52  <AveiMil> Ammler, not sure what effect that will have on balance. I guess that's one way of doing it.
13:41:09  <AveiMil> But I don't feel like going through all those 50 airacraft all over again and rebalancing :)
13:41:12  <AveiMil> already done it two times
13:41:15  <Ammler> Imo, it is has, if planes stay longer on ground
13:42:17  <AveiMil> it is has?
13:43:06  <Ammler> it has* :-)
13:43:10  <Wolf01> bah... fatal error on NuTracks
13:43:52  <AveiMil> it has what? hehe
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13:47:00  <AveiMil> [14:04] <andythenorth> 46km / h ships :D
13:47:02  <AveiMil> nope :D
13:47:05  <Ammler> effect
13:47:18  <AveiMil> Ammler, oh of course it does
13:47:32  <AveiMil> how it effects it is the question :)
13:47:42  <AveiMil> how much*
13:47:44  <andythenorth> AveiMil: how fast?
13:48:22  <AveiMil> [14:05] <andythenorth> not a realism mod then ;)
13:48:27  <AveiMil> I meant to copy/paste and respond to that
13:48:28  <AveiMil> doh
13:49:22  <Wolf01> uhm, found a bug on the newgrf interface
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13:49:46  <Rubidium> Wolf01: then it's on your screen :)
13:50:13  <Terkhen> hmmm... is there something else I need to do to get desync output besides configuring with --enable-desync-debug=2 and running openttd with -d desync=...?
13:50:14  <Rubidium> with the right settings you'll find bugs in some title bars in OpenTTD though
13:50:16  <Wolf01> when I try to navigate with the arrow keys in the loaded grfs, it changes the selected grfs in the inactive list
13:50:43  <andythenorth> I like slower ships for gameplay
13:51:05  <Ammler> Terkhen: the files are in save/autosave
13:51:11  <Rubidium> Terkhen: desync debug only works when you have a server and a client joins that server (the first client to be precise)
13:51:22  <Rubidium> -ddesync is quite pointless at that moment though
13:52:17  <Terkhen> I see... I don't know why I thought that things like CheckCaches would show up in single player
13:52:21  <Terkhen> thank you :)
13:52:39  <Rubidium> checkcaches probably works in single player though
13:53:04  <Rubidium> but that needs -ddesync=2 (or higher)
13:53:40  <Terkhen> hmm... that's what I'm using (ddesync=9 actually, after not seeing a single desync message)
13:53:40  <Rubidium> but... that gets dumped to $autosavedir/commands-out.log
13:54:08  <Terkhen> oh, there they are :)
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13:54:59  <Terkhen> I was under the impression that I had to be doing some stupid mistake and at least my impression was right :P
14:00:12  * andythenorth is underwhelmed by the changes to RV physics
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14:00:28  <andythenorth> I now have to reduce vehicle capacity, or seriously increase HP
14:02:27  <andythenorth> who changed the spec :P
14:02:28  <andythenorth> ?
14:02:31  <andythenorth> :D
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14:03:28  <Terkhen> are they problematic?
14:04:01  <andythenorth> only a bit
14:04:08  <andythenorth> it's not a big deal
14:05:26  <andythenorth> I'll just cheat
14:08:06  <andythenorth> I'm fighting fundamental physics, not just the game
14:08:17  <andythenorth> speed up slopes is a function of hp per ton
14:08:27  <andythenorth> and these bulldozers don't have enough hp per ton
14:08:37  <andythenorth> but giving them more would be quite unrealistic :P
14:08:44  <Wolf01> is the 2cc-set compatible with ecs?
14:16:46  <Ammler> yes
14:17:05  <Ammler> but you should use the nightlies, afaik
14:17:15  <Ammler> and opengfx+trains
14:20:02  <Wolf01> can you point me to the download? I only found the 2009 beta
14:22:57  <Wolf01> ok, found a nightly from october 2010
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14:33:36  <andythenorth> rv-wagons?
14:33:58  * andythenorth remembers that mentioning ponies doesn't make them any more likely :P
14:34:56  <Wolf01> another question (it's too much I don't play and I'm not updated with new things): all the OpenGFX - xyz grfs found on bananas could be interesting (e.i. they extend the basegraphics) or are they remains of when the opengfx were on multiple files?
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14:41:38  <Wolf01> meh... hnorses are really slow
14:41:44  <Wolf01> *horses
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14:43:08  <Wolf01> ok, that's why it does exists the "road vehicles original acceleration model"
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14:45:38  <Wolf01> :D broken down horse
14:47:55  <Alberth> Wolf01: afaik, the opengfx - xyz    grfs are extensions to the base set, while keeping the same spirit
14:52:25  <Wolf01> thanks
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14:57:22  <andythenorth> balancing sets is a chore
14:57:28  <andythenorth> where's pikka?  he likes it :P
14:59:36  <andythenorth> ho
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15:01:44  <andythenorth> if I modify RV running cost base, that changes for all vehicles, not just the ones in my newgrf?
15:02:14  <Rubidium> should affect only your vehicles (in new enough OpenTTDs)
15:02:27  <andythenorth> okey dokey
15:14:33  <andythenorth> bleargh
15:14:45  <andythenorth> there are way too many variables in this game
15:14:56  <andythenorth> balancing a set for gameplay is fruitless
15:15:40  <Terkhen> are you talking about costs, movement properties or both?
15:15:47  <andythenorth> breakdown settings * weight settings * acceleration settings * industry set in use * other vehicle sets in use
15:16:14  <andythenorth> it means designing a set so that players are encouraged to make certain choices is pointless
15:16:20  <andythenorth> which is fine by me I guess
15:16:42  <andythenorth> I just end up flat rating all vehicle costs to come out about the same per ton shipped
15:17:38  <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't think it is possible to balance costs for more than one industry set
15:19:29  <Alberth> you'd start with having a quick and convenient way to run the tests, I think
15:19:43  <Alberth> (automatically, in batch)
15:21:22  * Alberth ponders what would be useful to do with the consists used by a company
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16:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> random UI suggestion for consists: if you rearrange {real|virtual} vehicles in a depot{,-equvalent}, you make a temporary consist for each change the player makes. all temporary consists that still have more than 0 vehicles using them get permanent on closing the window
16:17:29  <Alberth> that sounds pretty random yeah :)
16:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> example: player buys an engine and 3 passenger wagons, you end up with temporary consists [engine], [engine, wagon], [engine, wagon, wagon] and [engine, wagon, wagon, wagon]
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16:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> only the last one is still "active" on closing the depot
16:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so the other ones can fairly safely be discarded
16:21:19  <Alberth> I was more thinking in the direction of groups. Unfortunately, a consist that is not a real vehicle, are just a bunch of EngineID s, where very little code exists for
16:21:32  <Alberth> what would be the value of all those temporaries?
16:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, before the player buys the second and third wagons, the vehicle [engine, wagon] must have some kind of consist assigned to it
16:22:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically some kind of garbage collection
16:22:52  <Rubidium> that's inevitably going to lead to a long list of commands when the window gets closed to build those particular vehicles, right?
16:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure about that.
16:23:45  <Rubidium> which'll be quite troublesome if the server owner decides that you may only execute one command per frame and that there may only be 2 commands in the command queue
16:24:25  <Rubidium> the default is 32 commands in the queue, though you'd reach that pretty quickly when you're changing the vehicle often enough
16:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> DoCommands or DoCommandPs?
16:24:33  <Rubidium> DoCommandPs
16:25:50  <Alberth> even before that, why have [engine, wagon] as intermediate result, if you only extend it to [engine, wagon, wagon] as intermediate result?
16:26:50  <Rubidium> for those intermediate results you might need real vehicles, or you have to duplicate the build/modification commands for the vehicles to work on those fake vehicles
16:27:35  <Alberth> Currently I have an array of EngineID as consist
16:28:51  <Alberth> real vehicles have other problems, like costing money just for existing, getting listed in the other windows, etc
16:30:40  <andythenorth> small dump truck should cost about the same as small ship of similar capacity?
16:30:53  <andythenorth> similar engine size, similar amount of sheet metal
16:30:59  <andythenorth> similar amount of fabrication
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16:38:17  <Alberth> I never buy either of them :p
16:38:37  <Alberth> capacity is as good a criterium as any other, I guess
16:39:15  * andythenorth briefly contemplates buying a real dump truck
16:39:21  <andythenorth> for k us dollars
16:39:35  <Alberth> hmm, given that ships are slower, I'd pick a truck
16:39:36  <andythenorth> that would leave me with no pension fund :P
16:39:44  <andythenorth> but I'd have a dump truck....
16:39:56  <Alberth> you can sell it again at eBay :p
16:40:09  <andythenorth> Alberth: dump trucks don't may be slower on water
16:41:32  <Alberth> sure, but in that case, the relation between prices is not important. Only when you can move cargo with either, the price becomes interesting
16:41:59  * Terkhen wonders if cross compiling openttd would be faster than compiling in mingw/msys
16:42:22  <Alberth> hmm, if you buy a big-enough dump truck, would the amount of displaced water not be sufficient for floating?
16:43:01  <Ammler> Terkhen: do you have a working env to cross compile?
16:43:01  <Alberth> compiling at Linux is faster than at windows afaik
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16:43:22  <Ammler> does the wiki howto still work?
16:43:31  <Terkhen> I don't think so
16:44:02  <Terkhen> I remember setting up one to see how fast was cross compiling from a VM, using archlinux
16:44:37  <Terkhen> IIRC most mingw libraries were already available as packages so I didn't need to tinker much
16:45:15  <Terkhen> I'll probably do it again to test with a real machine, if you are interested I can document what I'm doing once I'm start
16:46:07  <andythenorth> according to my formula, 50t 600hp dump truck costs same as 1000hp Jubilee train in default game
16:46:28  <andythenorth> seems...ok?
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17:45:08  <Rubidium> Terkhen: it depends pretty much on the way the compiler is compiled / the compiler
17:45:29  <Rubidium> I doubt cross-compiling OS X on Linux is faster, or on OS X it's also obnoxiously slow
17:47:01  <Rubidium> although MinGW is seriously slow
17:47:06  <Terkhen> IIRC it was better to compile it natively with mingw/msys than in a linux VM, but not by much
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17:47:29  <Rubidium> last compile: linux x64: 556s, win64: 569s, win9x: 830s
17:47:51  <Terkhen> heh
17:49:18  <Terkhen> I should just move all my development to linux again... I miss the speed and the simplicity
17:49:25  <Terkhen> but my final year project must work on windows, so I'm stuck with it
17:49:40  <Rubidium> having said that: linux i686: 375s, win32: 526s
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17:52:32  <Rubidium> and to add more variables, amd64 and win9x are started simultaniously with docs compilation (and the first that start the VM, so a slightly colder cache)
18:19:03  * andythenorth makes HEQS eye-wateringly expensive
18:25:31  <Alberth> that confirms my suspicion that x64 compile is really slower
18:25:40  <andythenorth> ha
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18:25:57  * andythenorth always worries when irc is quiet, in case no-one's coding neat stuff
18:26:09  <andythenorth> but actually....irc chat means no coding :P
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18:26:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ?
18:27:09  <Alberth> groups with consists are going down the drain very quickly atm :(
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18:28:56  <andythenorth> Alberth: what are the problems
18:29:10  <andythenorth> ?
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18:30:33  <Alberth> hmm, I was finding out where work was being done :p
18:30:55  <Alberth> basically, you need a consist to be a first class citizen, like a vehicle
18:31:11  <Alberth> ie load/save it etc
18:31:24  <Alberth> and build your vehicles from there
18:32:39  <Alberth> otherwise you never get a virtual vehicle nicely in the game
18:33:16  <Alberth> I don't know whether it is possible without destroying current game play
18:33:29  <Alberth> neither do I know whether it is worth the trouble
18:34:19  <Alberth> it does have potential, I think, although I cannot tell you what exactly
18:34:50  <andythenorth> is this groups && consists, or groups || consists
18:34:51  <andythenorth> ?
18:36:29  <Alberth> that is the 2nd problem, currently I am mostly considering consists only, how they relate to groups is a different complicated question, it seems
18:37:32  <Alberth> I had the hope that having a consist would be feasible as starting point, but that does not seem to be the case
18:41:43  <Alberth> I still expect that eventually groups (or routes, or whatever you call them) will be the central idea, and consists is one aspect of it.
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18:43:40  * andythenorth hopes articulated rvs ignore running cost for trailers :P
18:43:47  <andythenorth> otherwise I have some fixes to make :P
18:43:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21337 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt finnish.txt hungarian.txt):
18:43:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:43:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:43:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 18 changes by IPG
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19:47:57  * andythenorth wonders if all cost setting etc. should be done after a few glasses of wine :P
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19:52:29  <Rubidium> call that the "wine" economy and make it configurable
19:52:58  <andythenorth> parameter for number of glasses drunk?
19:53:44  <Rubidium> yes, and ones to factor in weight, kidney function and the likes
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20:26:20  <andythenorth> slow day
20:26:25  * andythenorth more wine
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20:54:43  <andythenorth> hmm
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21:08:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21338 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp openttd.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix [FS#4272]: bogus cache mismatch warnings with desync debugging because some cache was invalidated but never reset
21:10:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21339 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4272]: The VehicleCache was not checked for ships with desync debug options enabled.
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21:21:06  <AveiMil> Anyone want to play a multiplayer game?
21:23:21  <SpComb> what patchset?
21:23:48  <AveiMil> PIGM
21:24:08  <AveiMil> 5-6 people starting together and playing for a few hours competing
21:25:28  <AveiMil>
21:25:31  <AveiMil> waiting in there
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21:28:13  <b_jonas> 512x512 for 5--6 people?
21:28:20  <b_jonas> seems like you really want to compete
21:28:38  <Rubidium> 128x128 with that amount. That's getting competition
21:28:55  <Rubidium> with such a large map you won't get much (forced) competition quickly
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21:29:39  <AveiMil> yeah 512x512 is plenty of space for a while
21:29:42  <AveiMil> even with 6 people
21:29:51  <AveiMil> industries and towns are set to low though
21:30:00  <Alberth> 256x256 was original, 4 times as much space with 5-6 people, pretty much like the original
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21:33:26  <AveiMil> I've turned off that "Allow to join stations not directly adjacent"
21:33:56  <AveiMil> but I notice on my servers that some players are still streching their stations by building one lorry station next to the industry and another 5-10 tiles away
21:34:25  <AveiMil> guess they must be building one next to another all the way down and then deleting the ones inbetween afterwards
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21:35:52  <Terkhen> that's called station walking
21:36:12  <AveiMil> There should be a way to disable that exploit
21:36:20  <AveiMil> an option that says stations must be connected tile to tile
21:38:31  <Terkhen> IIRC there is a setting that disables irregular stations, but I don't know if that does what you want or not as I never tried it
21:38:40  <AveiMil> "no uniform stations"
21:38:47  <AveiMil> tried it out, no clue what it actually does
21:39:03  <b_jonas> AveiMil: try setting the station spread
21:39:22  <AveiMil> oh I get it, no non-uniform stations means you can take a 4 lengt rail station
21:39:27  <AveiMil> and then add a 2 length one next to it
21:39:38  <AveiMil> doesnt have any effect with lorry stations (guess because they're 1 tile)
21:39:48  <AveiMil> what station spread is optimal?
21:39:49  <b_jonas> AveiMil: or have a rectangular railway station with a platform a level above the other
21:39:59  <AveiMil> because I've been told that too low station spread and you break other aspects of the game
21:40:08  <b_jonas> AveiMil: station spread optimal? depends on how large airports you want to be able to build
21:40:21  <AveiMil> right, want to be to build all sizes
21:40:25  <AveiMil> so I don't like taht workaround
21:40:55  <b_jonas> I don't see why you really want to work it around
21:41:00  <b_jonas> why not just allow it?
21:41:07  <AveiMil> because it totally breaks the game?
21:41:08  <Terkhen> yes, you are not able to add stations to an airport to transfer passengers/cargo
21:41:16  <AveiMil> you can have a road vehicle deliver 1 tile
21:41:23  <AveiMil> when the industries rae 500 tiles away
21:41:34  <Terkhen> so you should set it a bit bigger than the biggest airport
21:41:41  <Terkhen> AveiMil: the largest station spread is 64 IIRC
21:41:44  <AveiMil> its 12 now, which I guess is default
21:41:54  <AveiMil> and minimuim needed for airports
21:41:57  <Terkhen> yeah, 12 is the sane default
21:42:03  <AveiMil> I'm sticking to it
21:42:30  <AveiMil> I'd like to request a new OpenTTD option though, or just make it default, that you cannot staiton walk, all stations must be within 2 tiles of eachother to be connected or something
21:42:39  <AveiMil> and if you build 15 tiles with stations and then delete the ones in between
21:42:42  <AveiMil> the connection is broken
21:42:58  <b_jonas> 12 is like 8 tile airport next to shorter side of 7 tile long rail station
21:42:58  <Alberth> then they'd simply leave the intermediate ones
21:43:13  <b_jonas> I don't see why station walking would break the game really
21:43:40  <AveiMil> a road vehicle transporting oil 1 tile with a 500 tile distance is not game breaking? heh
21:44:06  <AveiMil> alberth, limit the max station length?
21:44:08  <b_jonas> it's not 500 tile because station spread is 12
21:44:28  <b_jonas> and if it's 12 then the most you could get is transporting 12 squares, which doesn't pay much
21:44:34  <Alberth> yeah, I'd like to see that 500 tile station :)
21:44:59  <AveiMil> ah right
21:46:00  * Alberth ponders a chain of lorries 12 squares apart doing a 1 tile transport... :)
21:46:02  <b_jonas> AveiMil: but if you don't like that strategy, write it clearly in the rules that it's not allowed, and kick anyone from the server who does it
21:46:05  <Terkhen> AveiMil: as I already said, the maximum station spread is 64... and who is going to use such high values in a competition server?
21:46:16  <AveiMil> I was confused on what staiton spread did
21:46:20  <AveiMil> guess it's not that bad then
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21:46:52  <AveiMil> yup
21:48:02  <AveiMil> it's frustratingly hard to get players
21:48:18  <AveiMil> when we were 7 people playing from 1950 together, that was a lot of fun
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21:51:45  <b_jonas> some people might prefer collaborative play to competitive
21:52:59  <b_jonas> or world-building on easy difficulty to playing for money
21:53:05  <AveiMil> that's fine :)
21:53:24  <AveiMil> but I know there are people like me as well
21:54:54  <b_jonas> then there's the question of terraforming versus not
21:55:03  <b_jonas> so there are so many different styles it's hard to get a game together
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21:55:33  <b_jonas> maybe it's easier when you're doing a lan party with friends
21:57:23  <AveiMil> just need to get players accustomed to competing using one standard
21:57:33  * andythenorth wonders why FIRS Sugar Beet / Cane cargo has bulk class
22:00:32  * andythenorth wonders who added Depleted Uranium and Rockets as cargos on TTDP wiki
22:00:40  <AveiMil> andy, are you head FIRS developer?
22:00:48  <andythenorth> I guess
22:00:55  <Terkhen> :O
22:00:59  <AveiMil> cool
22:01:04  <andythenorth> head of no organisation
22:01:13  <Terkhen> is someone doing a terrorist industry GRF?
22:01:20  <andythenorth> dunno
22:01:27  <andythenorth> can't be bothered to read the history to find out
22:01:35  <andythenorth> what if it's steganography :P
22:01:37  <andythenorth> ?
22:01:41  <andythenorth> hide in plain site
22:01:43  <andythenorth> sight /s
22:01:47  <AveiMil> new industry, Al Quieda Camp
22:01:57  <andythenorth> new disaster
22:02:14  <AveiMil> transport terrorist to New York City 'industry'
22:02:20  <AveiMil> that'd be a hit I'm sure
22:02:28  <AveiMil> o.O
22:03:44  <Rubidium> did you know that as of dec 31, 2010 some ECS cargo classes changed?
22:04:02  <Rubidium> +[sic-ish]
22:04:06  <andythenorth> yes indeedy
22:04:08  <AveiMil> what's ESC cargo class
22:04:10  <George> Rubidium: Yes
22:04:11  <andythenorth> I have been told :)
22:04:17  <Terkhen> :O
22:04:25  <b_jonas> are there already (a) porn grfs and (2) patches to add a combat system to multiplayer ottd yet?
22:04:26  <Terkhen> where are those changes listed?
22:04:40  <Rubidium> b_jonas: 1) yes
22:05:00  <Rubidium> 2) I'd say yes
22:05:22  <Terkhen> hmmm... but if they are implemented in beta6 then I already tested OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles with them
22:05:47  <Rubidium> Terkhen: cargotypes wiki page (newgrf specs)
22:05:51  <AveiMil> wow there's a lot of servers on 1.0.4 still
22:05:55  <AveiMil> and people playing on them
22:06:11  <Rubidium> it's just that a past tense for something in the future sounds quite wrong
22:06:23  <Terkhen> oh
22:06:29  <b_jonas> Rubidium: good. it would be hard to claim ottd is a well-developped stable game instead of just a hacker toy in neverending beta stage without those
22:06:33  <Terkhen> I did not notice the date when I checked that page, and I did not notice it now either
22:07:27  <Rubidium> although the question is to what extent kicking someone (possibly repeatedly) is combat
22:07:46  <b_jonas> the third thing we need is tee shirts
22:07:56  <b_jonas> plus maybe a non-computer board game edition
22:08:09  <Rubidium> b_jonas: for 1:
22:08:31  <Yexo>
22:08:39  <Yexo> we got the t-shirts already
22:09:01  <b_jonas> though there are already train building board games
22:09:44  <b_jonas> Rubidium: I see
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22:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> which idiot translated that...
22:13:13  <Eddi|zuHause> > fg
22:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> bash: fg: gegenwÀrtig: Kein solche Job.
22:14:17  <AveiMil> guess I'll watch some since I can't get a game going :(
22:14:17  <Rubidium> yes, that's horrible
22:14:49  <AveiMil> Owen Rudge, is he on IRC?
22:15:22  <Rubidium> "hau: vg: herrschend: keine solchen Job" would be way better :)
22:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: not in the last 3 hours.
22:17:09  <AveiMil> what is his nick?
22:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you only have 122 to chose from ;)
22:20:24  <AveiMil> lol, prefers anonymity?
22:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can narrow it down further if you only consider those starting with o and ending with rudge...
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22:22:11  <AveiMil> lol
22:22:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21340 /trunk/projects/ (6 files):
22:22:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: prepare the MSVC project files (or rather its libraries) for collation (natural sorting) using ICU.
22:22:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Note: this means, for MSVC users, that you will need openttd-useful 4.0 or
22:22:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: higher to compiler this revision or higher, though sadly you'll need 3.4 or
22:22:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lower for the earlier revisions. Both 3.4 and 4.0 can be installed
22:22:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simultaniously though.
22:22:37  <AveiMil> figured you meant he was offline
22:22:52  <AveiMil> is he "project leader" or something?
22:23:08  <AveiMil> if I donate now, why am I donating to him so to speak, hehe
22:24:02  <Terkhen> AveiMil: you should check the donations thread in the forum
22:25:10  <AveiMil> searched for ~13 seconds
22:25:11  <AveiMil> didnt find it
22:25:13  <AveiMil> lost intrest
22:25:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yay for attention span of a kolibri
22:26:00  <Terkhen> and your plan is to bug the person that spent time preparing that thread and making it the most visible one in the forum
22:26:16  <AveiMil> bug the person?
22:26:18  <Terkhen> well, second to the rules thread
22:26:44  <Terkhen> hmm... annoy might be a better term for what I meant
22:26:57  <AveiMil> annoy who?
22:27:07  *** Xaroth_ is now known as Xaroth
22:27:25  <Terkhen> wow, you were not lying about your attention span :)
22:27:33  <Terkhen> reread my initial comment
22:28:07  <AveiMil> yeah, sounds like you imply that I'm looking to bug Owen
22:28:26  <AveiMil> but then again YOU might have prepared that thread but I don't know about it
22:28:31  <AveiMil> because I havent seen the thread
22:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause> highlighting a person on irc is generally concieved as "bugging"...
22:28:47  <Xaroth> then you fail a finding
22:28:49  <AveiMil> when you write "in the forum" I obviously go to the General thread index
22:28:51  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: really?
22:28:55  <AveiMil> and there's no "donations" thread stickied
22:29:08  <AveiMil> so you'd save a lot of time just posting the link
22:29:40  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: can you ask Xaroth if he is sure?
22:29:59  <Terkhen> AveiMil: if you can't see it then you have not searched for it at all
22:30:12  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: nah, asking Eddi|zuHause those things would be cruel
22:30:26  <Xaroth> AveiMil: you do notice the big "Donate" link next to "Search" right?
22:30:26  <AveiMil> I'm not going to run a forum search for it
22:30:30  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: you might be right. We should ask Eddi|zuHause what he things about it
22:30:36  <TrueBrain> thinks
22:30:41  <AveiMil> yeah, I see that now that you mention it
22:30:45  <AveiMil> but that was not intutive
22:30:52  <AveiMil> my eyes scanned for a donations thread
22:30:55  <AveiMil> in the general forum
22:31:17  <AveiMil> how you expected me to just know that is beyond me
22:31:21  <Xaroth> well
22:31:27  <Xaroth> smart people would be looking for a 'search' link
22:31:36  <Xaroth> at which point they would notice
22:31:41  <AveiMil> smart people would just like the thread
22:31:46  <Xaroth> that that search link is located right next to the donate link
22:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: what you need to decide is if you want to donate to the tt-forums or to openttd...
22:31:50  <AveiMil> if it's not easily visible in the general forum
22:32:10  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: i think Eddi|zuHause is ignoring us :(
22:32:16  <Yexo> AveiMil: it's the first sticky in the news forum:
22:32:18  <Terkhen> so... smart people ignore the stickied threads and prefer to ask for questions that are already answered there?
22:32:22  <Yexo> which is the first forum
22:32:34  <AveiMil> I don't read those sections
22:32:40  <AveiMil> I only care about the OpenTTD section
22:32:41  <Yexo> that is not my problem
22:32:48  <AveiMil> this is openttd
22:32:51  <Yexo> you can find a donate button on
22:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i am generally ignoring lines that contain a highlight to me :p
22:33:07  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: aw :(
22:33:14  <Yexo> when you donate to the forums you don't donate to openttd, although openttd benefits a lot from those forums
22:33:27  <Xaroth> AveiMil: another 'clue' .. the donations thread is in the forum aptly named "Read These First"
22:34:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: _nobody_ in the history of the world has ever read the instructions :Ì
22:34:18  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
22:34:21  <AveiMil> Read These First is like a surefire way to get ignored :D
22:35:46  <AveiMil> if that thread was so important it should have been linked off
22:36:08  <Terkhen> whatever
22:36:24  <Xaroth> no, if that thread was so important it'd be front page news.
22:36:38  <Yexo> AveiMil: when you've alreaedy found, what more are you looking for?
22:36:50  <AveiMil> who said I was looking for anything?
22:37:13  <AveiMil> I was asking questions about Owen and Terkhen said I should goto the forum thread about donations.
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22:37:29  <AveiMil> which doesnt really answer my questions anyway
22:37:36  <Terkhen> of course it does :)
22:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you didn't actually formulate an answerable question anyway.
22:38:12  <Terkhen> it should allow you to understand why your questions were wrong in the first place
22:39:01  <AveiMil> doesnt really explain much, and mention of I need to decide who to donate to, openttd or the forums is confusing
22:39:10  <AveiMil> because both the site and the forum thread speak of the same guy
22:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: just because two groups share the same accountant, doesn't mean they can transfer funds as they wish
22:40:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21341 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Add: Use the complete industry name instead of only the town when sorting industries by name.
22:41:04  <AveiMil> right
22:41:05  <Yexo> AveiMil: the site is owned by owen, and incidentally he also handles the openttd donations
22:41:20  <Yexo> that doesn't mean in any way that the cash is mixed
22:41:32  <AveiMil> so he's not a developer or project leader
22:41:55  <Yexo> he is a developer, but not very active
22:42:08  <AveiMil> alright
22:42:25  <Rubidium> he's the most active OS/2 developer!
22:42:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21342 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Add: Sort some lists again after a language change.
22:43:12  <AveiMil> is he from the past?
22:43:57  * Rubidium can be considered the most active s390 developer :)
22:43:59  <AveiMil> I'll donate iwth the info found here then
22:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause>   Simon Sasburg (HackyKid)       - For the many bugfixes he has blessed us with <-- what about the many bugs? [e.g. in pbs ;)]
22:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21343 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Function that compares strings using case insensitive natural sort.
22:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and "George" is like "Cher" and "Madonna"?
22:47:04  <Rubidium> guess so
22:47:18  <Rubidium> feel free to provide a patch to "fix" that though
22:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know his last name...
22:49:17  <Terkhen> hmmm... I hate writing commit messages
22:49:41  <Rubidium> -Feature [FS#xyz]: natural sorting of strings using ICU
22:49:44  <avdg> just write what it does
22:50:02  <avdg> I'm not an expert in it either
22:50:15  <Terkhen> Rubidium: thanks again :)
22:50:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21344 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#4214]: Natural sorting of strings using ICU.
22:50:51  <Terkhen> I was stuck at "natural sorting when sorting..."
22:50:59  <avdg> hmm, I remember that one :p
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23:37:33  <Zuu>  <--- Looks like not all sorters use stable search
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23:46:15  <Terkhen> Zuu: what do you mean with stable search?
23:47:06  <Zuu> Like how it is implemented for eg. signs:
23:47:07  <Zuu> return r != 0 ? r : ((*a)->index - (*b)->index);
23:47:14  <Zuu> (after the string comparison)
23:47:53  <Zuu> Otherwise two succesive sorts of lists containing more than one entry with the same name would yeild different results.
23:48:14  <Wolf01> lol @ ... I have the opposite problem, the gui is too big for 400*800
23:48:36  <Zuu> But maybe the answer is in my answer - not all lists can contain lines that have equal name.
23:48:51  <Rubidium> Wolf01: but it's too small for 320x240 again
23:49:17  <avdg> gn
23:49:57  <Rubidium> avdg: that's a very good idea
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23:51:43  <Terkhen> hmm... in most lists that is not very common
23:52:09  <Zuu> For vehicles that is not even allowed.
23:52:53  <Zuu> But I guess it could happen for servers in the multiplayer window.
23:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess (town, industry) pair can be non-unique
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23:54:16  <Terkhen> I guess so... do servers have an equivalent of the index?
23:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> unstable sort can be annoying
23:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: ip,port could be reasonably unique...
23:55:35  <Terkhen> it makes sense
23:55:38  <Zuu> Indeed one unstable sort was fixed in the sign list window when I was working on my patch for that window.
23:56:12  <Terkhen> feel free to compile a list with every name sorting that could use this
23:56:17  <Terkhen> I promise to check it, but not today :)
23:56:19  <Terkhen> good night
23:57:07  <Wolf01> I read about a "bigger gui" (Zephyris IIRC), it would be cool to have a gui which scales with the resolution, maybe optional because I want lots of viewports opened :D
23:57:55  <Zuu> hmm, the resolution has little to do with the DPI.
23:58:25  <Zuu> A high DPI is what makes Big GUI necessary, not a high resolution.
23:58:41  <Wolf01> right
23:59:41  <Wolf01> I remember the difference about having 1024*768 on a 15" and on a 19"

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