Log for #openttd on 28th November 2010:
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00:00:20  <Zuu> So in order to auto-detect a GUI scale, OpenTTD would need to have access to the graphics/monitor driver to maybe be able to detect the physical screen size + resolution in order to calculate the DPI.
00:00:40  <FauxFaux> Windows certainly exposes an estimate of that information. ¬_¬
00:03:00  <Wolf01> and an option to chose the dpi in the options gui (near the resolution)?
00:09:37  <b_jonas> it needn't autodetect, there could be an option in the menu. the hard part is drawing all the graphics.
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00:25:35  <Wolf01> b_jonas, why drawing when you can resize?
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00:50:56  <Wolf01> uhm... why does the vehicle factory produces cars while I must rely only on horses in 1850? it should produce wheelbarrows and coaches
01:07:08  <Markk> Current date: 5430-03-27
01:07:10  <Markk> Whoops
01:07:17  <Markk> Think I may have forgotten to restart the game
01:07:31  <Wolf01> :)
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01:36:31  <Wolf01> nini
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08:22:54  <Nite> Hi
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08:25:32  <Nite> Anyone on?
08:26:04  <Nite> too early 4 sunday i guess ;)
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08:26:59  <Rubidium> or just too early to be bothered to answer those kinds of questions
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08:54:26  <Terkhen> good morning
08:54:35  <Rubidium> moi
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09:30:02  <Wolf01> hello
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09:31:46  <andythenorth> mornink
09:31:50  <andythenorth> Alberth:
09:32:50  <Alberth> I don't believe such things happen by accident any more :)
09:34:19  <andythenorth> also
09:34:24  <andythenorth> but that's rv-wagons
09:38:00  <peter1138> heh
09:43:48  <Terkhen> :D
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09:53:14  <andythenorth> if I add too many hi-rail trucks to HEQS, gameplay will be distorted :o
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10:12:15  <Wolf01> andythenorth: I don't think so, maybe you can give more visibility to road vehicles, trains are nice because they earn money really fast and people go crazy in building stations and track layouts, rv are ignored sometimes
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10:12:36  <andythenorth> Wolf01: hi-rail trucks are trains ;)
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10:13:03  <Wolf01> oh, I thought they were trams
10:15:31  <andythenorth>
10:18:50  <Wolf01> if you could make them use both rail and roads you can add thousands of them IMHO :D :D :D
10:19:24  <andythenorth> yeah
10:19:39  <andythenorth> would you like to take a bet on whether that's going to happen :D
10:19:40  <andythenorth> ?
10:20:53  <Wolf01> eheh, I hope this won't remain a pony in eternity
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10:26:14  * Alberth bets it has happened in the year ∞
10:26:58  * andythenorth can't even think how it would work
10:29:46  <Alberth> path-finder will find a route over both road and rail
10:30:07  <Alberth> at a level crossing, you switch between road and rail :)
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10:40:32  <AveiMil> is there any way to increase the buy land cost?
10:40:39  <AveiMil> or disable the feature?
10:41:03  <Wolf01> newgrf to alter the base costs
10:42:08  <AveiMil> yeah but can you alter JUST the buy land cost?
10:43:15  <Wolf01> uhm, I think it influences all the land clearance commands
10:43:34  <AveiMil> yeah I don't want that
10:49:57  <AveiMil> Do you know how to make a server welcome message?
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10:54:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: make a road-rail type
10:54:46  <andythenorth> road and rail on same tile
10:55:02  <andythenorth> but pathfinding + obeying signals etc might really suck :P
10:57:48  <Alberth> you get new disasters for free :p
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11:25:43  <AveiMil> Anyone up for a game, 13:00 CET?
11:38:21  * andythenorth wonders why running cost is fixed, and not a factor of fuel use?
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11:48:21  <Wolf01> <Alberth> you get new disasters for free :p <- it crashes with itself because it is both rv and rail vehicle on the same tile
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11:51:03  <AveiMil> <- need 2 more for a game
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12:01:38  <IchGuckLive> HI all ! I buildet a monorail line now i i opend the DEpo on this line but there is no monorail engine in the list to buy ?
12:02:25  <FauxFaux> Unlucky.
12:03:43  <TrueBrain> FauxFaux: can't you be more helpful? :p
12:03:44  <IchGuckLive> i worked hard for 4mio cash now i got to rap it ? or shoudt i downgrade to elecrtic
12:04:02  <TrueBrain> IchGuckLive: did you build a monorail depot?
12:04:09  <IchGuckLive> yes
12:04:31  <TrueBrain> so monorail engines are not invented in the year you are, I guess .. meh .. I shouldn't be guessing, haven't played this game in ages :)
12:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> IchGuckLive: and you have wagons available?
12:04:56  <IchGuckLive> yes
12:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess you should get an engine within the next year or so
12:05:11  <IchGuckLive> 2 engines also there saying electrical
12:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so you DO have an engine?
12:05:37  <IchGuckLive> X2001 electric and milleniumZ1
12:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it just doesn't say "monorail" next to it, so you get confused?
12:06:07  <IchGuckLive> ok i thught it shoudt be named monorail
12:06:23  <IchGuckLive> ok
12:06:27  <IchGuckLive> BY
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12:24:31  <AveiMil> Anyone want to compete?
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12:24:38  <AveiMil> We're about to start with 5 people,
12:25:00  <Terkhen> AveiMil: please stop the spam
12:25:24  <AveiMil> please stop bugging me about spamming when I'm not spamming
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12:27:51  * andythenorth wonders how much trams should cost
12:28:25  <TrueBrain> AveiMil: please stop disagreeing about if you are spamming or not
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12:29:03  <andythenorth> is he spamming?
12:29:10  <TrueBrain> advertising is spamming, so yes :)
12:29:20  <AveiMil> I asked if anyone wanted to PLAY a game, 30 minutes apart
12:29:22  <AveiMil> if that's spamming
12:29:26  <TrueBrain> imagine how this channel would be if everyone would do that .. omg ...
12:29:26  <AveiMil> blow me
12:29:32  <TrueBrain> @kban AveiMil 600 granted
12:29:33  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
12:29:33  *** AveiMil was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [granted]
12:29:54  <andythenorth> harsh :P
12:29:55  <TrueBrain> wrong person to challenge
12:30:13  <andythenorth> knife, gun fight
12:30:17  <TrueBrain> I somehow dislike people who show little respect, dunno what it is :)
12:33:03  <Terkhen> it's actually the second time he answers rudely to my request, I was checking the kban syntax to avoid having the same scene a third time :)
12:33:13  <Terkhen> but you always learn better with an example
12:33:18  <TrueBrain> sorry Terkhen, I didn't want to steal it from you :)
12:33:46  <Terkhen> :)
12:33:56  <TrueBrain> but yeah, now you know the syntax :D
12:34:04  <Terkhen> :D
12:34:09  <Rawh> you could always kickban at random, to even out the score, as long as it isn't me >.<
12:34:22  <andythenorth> brrrr
12:34:28  <TrueBrain> Rawh: smart addition, the last part :D
12:34:32  <andythenorth> balancing capacities against Pikka trains is hard
12:34:40  <Rawh> yeh :D
12:34:40  <andythenorth> due to arbitrarily low capacity in those sets
12:37:30  <V453000> ukrs2?
12:38:19  <Wolf01> TrueBrain, do you still have the patch for PocketPC? Maybe it's a bit outdated, but I think it will be possible to update to trunk with less modifications than developing a new patch
12:38:48  <TrueBrain> eeeuuhhhh
12:39:03  <andythenorth> V453000: yes
12:39:13  <V453000> y, I see no point why the capacities are so low
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12:39:39  <andythenorth> to encourage trains with more wagons
12:39:45  <andythenorth> Dan and Pikka did it for valid reasons
12:39:47  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: nope, not here anyway. Most likely on some topic .. dunno ..
12:39:49  <TrueBrain> it never really worked
12:39:59  <TrueBrain> most is committed what did ..
12:40:01  <V453000> oh lol, supporting longer trains ... nice for noobs
12:41:09  <Ammler> andythenorth: and why is it hard,just half your cap too
12:41:29  <andythenorth> Ammler: because road vehicles don't work like trains
12:41:39  <Wolf01> then I must only work on the gui and disable some settings like maps with more than 512*512 tiles etc
12:41:42  <andythenorth> half capacity == road vehicle losing money, and double the number of vehicles needed
12:42:00  * Terkhen knows where this discussion is going :)
12:42:18  <andythenorth> this discussion is going towards me annoying players by reducing capacity of existing HEQS trams :P
12:42:30  <V453000> which would be quite appropriate :)
12:42:49  <Ammler> well, this sounded more like a parameter setting or autodetection of ukrs
12:43:26  <andythenorth> not so much :)
12:43:41  <andythenorth> although I may add a capacity parameter to HEQS 2
12:43:43  <planetmaker> hello
12:43:43  <andythenorth> not sure yet
12:43:46  * Terkhen mumbles bad things about libicu
12:43:48  <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
12:43:49  <Terkhen> hi planetmaker
12:43:53  <V453000> hi
12:44:11  <planetmaker> [13:36]	<andythenorth>	balancing capacities against Pikka trains is hard <-- you could go for low capacity when pikka's newgrfs are present. But go for your faviourite otherwise. Or alike
12:44:14  <Wolf01> hi planetmaker
12:44:21  <planetmaker> if it is just a simple multiplier
12:45:19  <V453000> which brings us back to the point why to get out of the "standard" capacity which is like 30-40 units of cargo per wagon ... (pointing at 2cc or ukrs2)
12:46:03  * planetmaker likes the way I solved the prices with OpenGFX+Trains: auto-adjust to other newgrfs - or if alone use my way :-)
12:46:30  <planetmaker> but prices are easier than capacity
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12:48:11  <AveiMil> heh
12:48:49  <planetmaker> Generally Pikka's values are IMHO a good baseline
12:49:05  <planetmaker> From which things can then be modified via parameters :-)
12:49:26  <planetmaker> Especially as Pikka has NewGRFs for nearly everything, so chances are big that you'll have at least one from him
12:50:02  <V453000> well, wagons capping 20 tons capacity are pretty low
12:50:26  <planetmaker> hm, are they THAT low?
12:50:32  <V453000> yes
12:50:39  <V453000> 20 is max
12:50:39  <TrueBrain> AveiMil: and to make it perfectly clear to you: we do not blow people here. We tend to be polite. Also, server advertising is spamming, and when asked, you should stop doing that. I hope I made myself somewhat clear on this now.
12:50:45  <planetmaker> Then I recall wrongly... I thought his were mostly somewhat like default
12:50:59  <V453000> pm: that is for UKRS
12:51:01  <V453000> not for UKRS2
12:51:17  <V453000> UKRS2 has all around 30 units of cargo per wagon, just as standard
12:51:23  <V453000> *1
12:51:24  <planetmaker> Hm, I should probably add UKRS to my checklist, too ;-)
12:51:30  <V453000> lost in the 1/2 :D
12:51:34  <planetmaker> :-)
12:51:47  <V453000> ukrs1 is imo the best newGRF, which I am sure I already said before :p
12:52:37  <planetmaker> Pikkas cost balancing wrt default prices is pretty easy: normal purchase, 4x running :-)
12:53:04  <V453000> well, how do the money make importance? :p
12:53:26  <planetmaker> It is not. But to balance sets against eachother for people like you who add all sets ;-)
12:53:51  <planetmaker> Then you can set the overall level via base costs while similar trains from different sets cost similarly
12:54:04  <V453000> thats true :)
12:54:11  <V453000> then just make similar numbers everywhere :p
12:54:29  <planetmaker> well. An AsiaStar must be more expensive than the KirbyPaul ;-)
12:55:34  <V453000> for sure :)
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12:56:49  <andythenorth> V453000: UKRS2 has more like 10t per wagon
12:56:58  <andythenorth> which may or may not be 10 units :P
12:57:11  <V453000> yes, capping at 20 - 20 is the most capacity
12:57:30  <V453000> for the coal hopper
12:57:52  <planetmaker> hmpf. properties must be compile time constants...
12:57:57  <planetmaker> hm. must they?
12:58:07  <planetmaker> action06 should allow to change that
12:58:14  <V453000> dunno, I just ignore UKRS2 because I a) find it ugly, and b) I dislike the capacities so far away from standards, just the same as 2cc set
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13:11:59  <planetmaker> lool. The answers to Purno in the 2cctrainset thread are hilarious :-)
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13:34:33  <andythenorth> meh
13:34:44  <andythenorth> it's easy to add more wagons to trains
13:34:46  <andythenorth> trams, not :(
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13:45:05  <wito> I'm having a bit of a wierd issue; when using r21333+cargodist with ECS or FIRS; no new industries appear during the course of the game
13:45:17  <wito> Did that become a setting somewhere, or is my build bad?
13:45:52  <andythenorth> wito: can you build an industry manually?
13:45:58  <wito> yes
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13:46:36  <wito> might be worht mentioning that I'm generating the scenario without industries
13:47:32  <andythenorth> got towns?
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13:48:11  <wito> Yes.
13:48:53  <andythenorth> hmm
13:48:57  * andythenorth is stumped
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13:50:13  <wito> also, Mac OS X
13:50:30  <wito> In case that matters
13:51:02  <wito> For ECS all the GRFs are loaded properly, and all of that
13:51:23  <planetmaker> wait. you use FIRS and ECS?
13:51:26  <planetmaker> that must fail
13:51:36  <planetmaker> probably both sets deactivate themselves
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13:51:45  <andythenorth> *or*
13:51:53  <kenneth> quick question, can i launch openttd in dedicated mode on windows without switches
13:51:59  <kenneth> i am writing a monitor program
13:52:06  <kenneth> and i need to point just at openttd.exe
13:52:10  <kenneth> -D breaks my code
13:52:34  <wito> neither ECS nor FIRS spawn new industries; and I'm not running them together. (That'd be pretty silly of me)
13:52:39  <FauxFaux> Doesn't it honour the config file, kenneth?
13:52:57  <wito> prospecting, building, etc, works
13:53:27  <kenneth> can you force dedicated in openttd.cfg ?
13:53:29  <kenneth> didnt think you could
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13:54:22  <FauxFaux> Maybe you can't and I've lost it.
13:54:30  <Rubidium> kenneth: you can
13:55:00  <Rubidium> just set the video driver to dedicated
13:55:18  <Rubidium> it might still try to play music and sounds though
13:55:49  <Rubidium> and do "screen" drawing
13:58:54  <Alberth> wito: did you set 'no industries' ?
13:59:16  <wito> Alberth: When generating the map, yes
13:59:21  <wito> or?
13:59:26  <kenneth> ah cool
13:59:32  <kenneth> thanks Rubidium
13:59:34  <wito> Am I missing some salient fact about changes in names on generation settings or something?
14:00:00  <Alberth> 'no industries' literally means 'no industries'
14:00:38  <Alberth> ie the game does not create new ones. You can fund your own though
14:01:22  <wito> Well, that does explain it
14:01:41  <wito> Is there a setting to not generate any industries but still have them turn up randomly after game start?
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14:06:35  <b_jonas> wito: try the scenarie editor maybe
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14:11:11  <wito> Well, trying with low industries now; and then we'll see if that works as expected.
14:15:53  <kenneth> Ok, so im starting openttd withouth -D switch with video set to dedicated
14:15:54  <kenneth> and i get dbg: [net] [udp] could not create IPv6 socket on port []:0 (IPv6): No error
14:19:37  <kenneth> port is clearly defined in openttd.cfgb
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14:22:33  <kenneth> ignore me, port forwarding, i forgot im now on the linux box
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14:25:01  <wito> How often should I expect ECS industries to spawn?
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14:32:46  <wito> Huh, I think I found another bug, tho'; that might actually be a bug
14:33:34  <wito> Too bad autosave was off. :(
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15:28:08  <wito> ok, so this is a bit odd
15:28:47  <wito> When generating at low number of industries; I get exactly one of each industry type; and no industries appear during play.
15:29:20  <wito> except to replace closed industries of the same type

15:29:50  <andythenorth> hmm
15:30:01  <andythenorth> is supposed to be up?
15:30:08  <andythenorth> nginx reporting bad gateway
15:30:10  <andythenorth> Rubidium: ^
15:30:10  <wito> It's worth noting that I'm only 20-ish years in
15:31:14  <Alberth> wito: you probably should have less industries, but you get forced 1 instance of each type
15:31:28  <wito> Right
15:31:36  <Alberth> so you can build chains of industries
15:31:43  <wito> But in short; the generated industries determine how many you get?
15:31:50  <wito> That's new, isn't it?
15:32:15  <Alberth> together with the mapsize
15:32:21  <Alberth> it is not new though
15:32:34  <wito> Fairly new.
15:32:59  <wito> Previously, as late as 1.0.0(M) when playing with no industries on the board from the get-go they still spawn
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15:33:30  <Alberth> yes, I modified the industry model :)
15:33:57  <wito> didn't strike you as possible to add a switch for this somewhere? :P
15:34:54  <wito> don't get me wrong; I like the possibilty of not having to deal with spawned industries at all; but still
15:35:15  <wito> It would be nice having the choice. :P
15:35:32  <planetmaker> there are sufficient switches
15:35:43  <Alberth> they are still spawning, but you have a lot of forced industries. In other words, you have way too many currently
15:35:50  <wito> Right.
15:35:53  <wito> Fair enough
15:36:11  <wito> but if I start a new map with no industries; I still want industries to spawn naturally.
15:36:22  <wito> I just like getting some of my PAX set up first between cities and whatnot.
15:36:55  <planetmaker> what stops you doing so on a map _with_ industries?
15:37:14  <planetmaker> seems that's the worst argument for that end possible
15:37:14  <wito> the _industries_
15:37:14  <Ammler> wow, is it now possible to play a map without industries?
15:37:48  <Zuu> wito: How does they stop you?
15:37:50  <planetmaker> how does an industry stop you building pax connections?
15:37:52  <Alberth> your industry set is not really designed for the small map that you have, combined with the 'low industry' setting.
15:38:10  <wito> Zuu: They get in the way of where I want to build my train lines
15:38:16  <wito> especially on small maps, of course
15:38:21  <Zuu> Magic dynamite?
15:38:28  <Zuu> :-D
15:38:35  <wito> hmm
15:38:43  <wito> let's give that a shot and see what happens
15:38:46  <Zuu> Its found it the cheats.
15:38:54  <Zuu> Just make sure to turn it off when you not use it.
15:39:04  <Zuu> Otherwise, towns may as well make use of it.
15:39:27  <planetmaker> wouldn't matter... he doesn't want inudustries anyway...
15:40:20  <Zuu> Is it only industries that magic dynamite can destroy? Isn't there more to it that might be bad?
15:41:25  <wito> ok; industries not serviced have been bulldozed
15:41:30  <wito> let's see what happens.
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15:46:42  <Alberth> it recreates the industries you removed, they are forced to exist at least once
15:48:05  <Alberth> the previous implementation did not care about breaking chains
15:48:14  <Zuu> wito: If money is not important, you could create one instance of each industry in some corner of the map which you don't use to stop them from appearing where you don't want them.
15:48:51  <Zuu> Use some NewGRF that stops industries from dying if they aren't served.
15:51:40  <wito> Alberth: Here's the kicker: _I_ don't care about breaking chains. ;)
15:52:24  <planetmaker> Here's the kicker: _I_ don't care about you not caring
15:52:30  <wito> Heh.
15:53:02  <planetmaker> I care about the usual player who expects that the industries are usable. Which means each is present at least once
15:53:24  <planetmaker> unless defined differently by the newgrf
15:53:52  * Alberth ponders about making a wiki page with hints how to generate a useful new world
15:54:07  <planetmaker> define 'useful' ;-)
15:54:23  <Alberth> default industries do not enforce, FIRS at least does
15:54:40  <wito> ECS does too, by the looks of it.
15:55:03  <planetmaker> <-- like that, Alberth ?
15:55:11  <Alberth> planetmaker: sufficiently large for industry sets, not flat-ish with arctic
15:55:11  <planetmaker> or in what direction?
15:55:19  <b_jonas> not enforce what? the last oil refinery not closing even if you don't supply it?
15:55:50  <planetmaker> that guide is of course specific to coop maps, but can be generalized
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15:57:33  <wito> Alberth: What would happen if I were to remove industry_cmd.cpp:1875-1878?
15:57:39  <Alberth> b_jonas: hmm, yeah there is closure protection.
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15:57:55  <Alberth> you have a file with 4 less lines?  :p
15:58:13  <wito>
15:58:19  <wito> These lines in particular
15:59:20  <b_jonas> I think the protection against closure is a feature, for often I don't transport any oil until the oil rigs appear, and by that time sometimes there's no refinery at all, so I must found one
15:59:26  <Alberth> not sure whether that is sufficient, and/or will not crash elsewehere
15:59:49  <planetmaker> I'm actually not even sure it's good to remove those :-)
16:00:12  <Alberth> it may be better to set the variable in the console, if that's possible
16:00:18  <wito> Alberth: like the assert here?
16:00:26  <planetmaker> but might be consistent
16:01:10  <Alberth> wito:  no problem, that's protection for reading garbage, eg if you set the var to 100 or so
16:01:19  <wito> ah, ok
16:02:43  <wito> I guess there's not much for it.
16:02:49  <wito> I'll just have to try it and see.
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16:04:04  <Alberth> you should have more industries than there are forcibly created. Then spawning is not running behind, and new industries will be built
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16:09:55  <wito> hmm
16:10:04  <wito> it seems as if removing that line alone does not indeed do the trick
16:10:08  <wito> well, those
16:10:37  <wito> owait
16:10:41  <wito> it does ^_^
16:11:30  <wito> does the new implementation protect industries that are not being serviced if they are the last of their kind?
16:12:30  <Alberth> the old already did
16:12:44  <Alberth> the new one rebuilds them if needed
16:14:04  <wito> if the NewGRF specifies that it should, yeah?
16:16:36  <planetmaker> if the newgrf doesn't specify it shouldn't ;-)
16:19:05  <wito> right
16:19:30  <wito> but now it seems as if it works
16:20:44  <wito> I'm not familiar with the code base; how do I check a global or game setting?
16:21:14  <planetmaker> console
16:21:19  <planetmaker> set <settingname>
16:21:21  <wito> planetmaker: In code.
16:21:40  <planetmaker> they're all in settings.h
16:21:46  <planetmaker> or table/settings.h
16:22:48  <wito> is adding a hidden setting a one-line job?
16:22:56  <planetmaker> no
16:23:19  <planetmaker> it's rather like 10 + actual influence
16:24:00  <wito> yeah; OK
16:24:02  <wito> I get it.
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16:34:53  <planetmaker> @commit 21116
16:34:53  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by planetmaker :: r21116 /trunk/src (5 files in 2 dirs) (2010-11-07 21:46:41 UTC)
16:34:54  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Add [FS#3012]: Reduce the chances to accidentially break savegames with NewGRFs
16:35:07  <planetmaker> ^ wito that is pretty much minimal effort for a new setting
16:35:53  <andythenorth> please no more industry settings
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16:36:11  <andythenorth> it's already near-impossible to provide newgrf industry in a reasonable way
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16:45:29  <Alberth> I was not planning any new ones :)
16:52:44  <planetmaker> nor me :-)
16:57:18  <planetmaker> "because you cannot build a bridge over a mountain" <-- nice! :-)
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16:59:21  <planetmaker> George: maybe you would like to consider to upload LV4 to bananas?
17:02:04  <Alberth> no doubt he had other places where he wanted a tunnel :)
17:02:47  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
17:03:56  <planetmaker> :-) Sure enough for junctions
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17:04:17  <planetmaker> where indeed now bridges become the slightly better option except for Lev4 maglev
17:04:30  <planetmaker> and they are already as they can be placed more freely than tunnels
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18:01:33  <__ln__> ahh, -17 degrees Celsius, ~10 cm of snow
18:03:04  <Markk> :D
18:03:27  <Markk> We recently got some frost on car windows in the morning.
18:03:33  <Markk> ANd now some frost on the grass.
18:04:18  <Markk> __ln__: Where you you live ike?
18:04:21  <Markk> like*
18:04:22  <planetmaker> lik -5°C here at noon
18:04:36  <__ln__> Markk: southern Finland
18:04:43  <Markk> Ah. :)
18:05:52  <Markk> I'm from Homojen Valtakunta.
18:07:17  *** DDR [~DDR@] has joined #openttd
18:09:24  <__ln__> "great"
18:09:48  <Markk> Haha
18:10:26  *** ProfFrink [] has joined #openttd
18:11:07  <Markk> I have a finnish colleague, and I asked what you're calling Sweden. :)
18:11:45  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
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18:19:26  <Markk> __ln__: Why is it "Great"?
18:21:22  *** fmauneko [~fmauneko@] has quit [Quit: fmauneko]
18:21:38  * andythenorth sighs
18:21:44  <andythenorth> trams need costs done 'proper'
18:21:51  <andythenorth> due to changing capacity
18:21:57  <andythenorth> :|
18:25:12  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:26:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: callback
18:26:31  <andythenorth> I know :|
18:26:34  <andythenorth> I'm doing it
18:26:36  <andythenorth> more defines :P
18:26:40  <Markk> Oh noes.
18:26:46  <Markk> Callback
18:26:54  <andythenorth> did me mention rv-wagons?
18:27:00  <andythenorth> I'd do whatever I could to help
18:27:07  <planetmaker> though... difficult
18:27:38  <andythenorth> doing articulated vehicles with multiple refits is fiendishly clever
18:27:40  <andythenorth> too clever
18:27:53  <planetmaker> >:-)
18:27:57  <andythenorth> I'd sooner put the work into trying to help patch the game
18:28:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I thought recently about a callback for refit costs.
18:28:29  <planetmaker> What is easy: refit cost depending upon the current status of the vehicle
18:28:31  <andythenorth> there isn't one already?
18:28:40  <planetmaker> what you want rather: refit cost depending upon target
18:28:55  <planetmaker> and that borders very much to tmwftlg or is even beyond
18:29:01  <Terkhen> my principal problem is that I don't know how difficult would rv-wagons be exactly because I fail to understand the difference (codewise) between articulated vehicles and wagons
18:29:04  <andythenorth> I thought of that for FISH, in connection with bulk <-> tankers
18:29:12  <andythenorth> but concluded tmwftlb
18:29:29  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm just adjusting running cost, which is within reach already
18:29:42  <planetmaker> If you need a CB just for refit cost: I have a nearly-done patch for that. But for the selected one... not
18:29:51  <planetmaker> running costs: easy :-)
18:29:52  <Terkhen> I guess that fixing the partial refit patch should help me in understanding that
18:29:59  <andythenorth> planetmaker nah, I don't really care about refit costs
18:30:04  <planetmaker> pew :-)
18:30:07  <andythenorth> I'm running them all around 0, it's a boring cost
18:30:08  <planetmaker> Lucky me :-P
18:30:57  <andythenorth> in expensive sets I find it annoying to scrape money to buy a train, then can't afford the refit
18:31:04  <andythenorth> it's not part of the challenge, it's just annoying
18:31:11  <planetmaker> :-)
18:31:24  <andythenorth> Terkhen: what else might help you understand it :)
18:31:25  <andythenorth> ?
18:32:00  <Terkhen> probably trying to code an articulated vehicle, to understand the method by myself
18:32:07  <Terkhen> it worked for CBs
18:32:14  <andythenorth> code in game, or newgrf?
18:32:20  <Terkhen> newgrf
18:32:23  <andythenorth> I can teach you
18:32:34  <andythenorth> it will take about two minutes :P
18:32:39  <andythenorth> do you learn that fast?
18:32:45  <planetmaker> :-D
18:32:50  <Terkhen> nope
18:33:00  <andythenorth> an arv is, in principle, just a consist of vehicles
18:33:28  <Terkhen> it takes me ages to understand nml code; I learned CBs basically by copying things already done in OpenGFX+ Trains
18:33:30  <andythenorth> I've been assuming recently that if arvs can be built by newgrf with a cb....
18:33:39  <andythenorth> ...then they can be built in a similar way, via a GUI, with arbitrary order
18:34:25  <andythenorth> unless they really are weird and magic :P
18:35:17  <andythenorth> cb16 is articulated building instructions
18:35:24  <andythenorth> the return values are vehicle IDs
18:35:26  <planetmaker> Terkhen: but it might help to then look at the nml2nfo code from what you know how it looks in NML :-)
18:35:40  <frosch123> Terkhen: compare Vehicle::Next(), Train::GetNextVehicle() and Train::GetNextUnit() :)
18:35:40  <andythenorth> in principle arv could be built to all kinds of weird rules depending on varaction2
18:35:46  <frosch123> evening everyone btw :)
18:35:51  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
18:35:52  <andythenorth> quak etc
18:35:52  <planetmaker> quak :-)
18:36:04  <andythenorth> hmm
18:36:05  <andythenorth> nothing broke
18:36:11  * andythenorth back to cost cb
18:37:00  <fjb> Moin frosch123
18:41:01  <Terkhen> hmm... thanks frosch123, it makes sense now :)
18:41:41  * Terkhen will be using GetNextArticPart and GetFirstEnginePart to keep articulated vehicles consistent in the partial refit patch
18:42:27  <Terkhen> I was thinking about the following solution: selecting any part of an articulated vehicle always selects the complete vehicle
18:43:01  <frosch123> would be consistent with the depot gui :)
18:43:30  <Terkhen> the greatest problem is that "random" selections far away from the real selection might be confusing for the user
18:47:48  <Terkhen> hmm... another issue will be making sure that some articulated parts are not refitted twice by the command
18:55:49  * andythenorth runs smack into a problem
18:56:05  <andythenorth> road vehicle weight has to be <64t
18:56:38  <andythenorth> which presents a problem for 62t tram with 15 wagons at 4t each
18:56:56  <andythenorth> so I can't provide even slightly accurate unladen weight
18:57:09  <andythenorth> nvm
18:57:28  <Rubidium> @calc 15*4+62
18:57:28  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 122
18:57:38  <frosch123> 64t? is rv weight given in kg?
18:57:46  <Rubidium> so give it weight 22t, then at least 2 of the 3 digits is right
18:57:56  <Rubidium> frosch123: isn't it in quarter tonne units?
18:58:02  <Hirundo> yes
18:58:16  <frosch123> @calc 32768/4
18:58:16  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 8192
18:58:20  <frosch123> so 8000t
18:58:30  <frosch123> when using cb35
18:58:32  <frosch123> *36
18:58:52  * andythenorth looks up what cb36 can return
18:59:28  <andythenorth> hmm
18:59:31  <andythenorth> can't see any spec
18:59:39  <andythenorth> I assumed it was bytes only
18:59:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: in ottd cb36 is always 15bit
19:00:08  <andythenorth> hokey dokey
19:00:11  <frosch123> independent of the property size
19:00:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21345 /trunk/src/lang/ (turkish.txt vietnamese.txt):
19:00:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:00:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: turkish - 2 changes by niw3
19:00:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
19:00:36  * andythenorth is definitely jumping off the tmwftlb cliff here
19:01:12  <Rubidium> then you'll just land in the fresh snow
19:01:54  <andythenorth> weight can be constant for trams
19:02:14  * andythenorth wants to 1.0 HEQS
19:03:00  <Terkhen> andythenorth: all the new callbacks for RVs use the two bytes right now
19:03:25  <Terkhen> I don't know about the others, but most should too
19:04:08  <Terkhen> are you planning to change the weight of the cargo trams when you change their number of wagons?
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19:05:06  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I was
19:05:34  <andythenorth> now I'm not :P
19:05:39  <Terkhen> :)
19:06:43  <andythenorth> wow.  The big tram just got *very* expensive compared to previously :o
19:08:31  <Terkhen> it makes sense... it is by far the HEQS vehicle with biggest capacity
19:08:43  <andythenorth> it also got smaller :p
19:08:56  <Terkhen> it is not very fast, but there are many slower vehicles
19:09:07  <Terkhen> what is its max capacity now?
19:09:16  <andythenorth> 300t
19:09:24  <Terkhen> it is still very big :)
19:09:35  <Terkhen> so IMO it makes sense to make it expensive
19:10:02  <andythenorth> I shall
19:10:02  <andythenorth> :)
19:11:53  <Ammler> rvs shouldn't earn much money
19:12:13  <Ammler> just very close to not losing :-)
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19:21:33  <andythenorth> This returns refit_cost_1 for refit 1, and refit_cost_3 for refits 2 and 3.  Which is puzzling :P
19:21:34  <andythenorth>
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19:31:44  * andythenorth is having one of those 'just delete this not-working code' moments :|
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19:41:31  <Yexo> andythenorth: 82 42 0F FF <- you shift 15 intead of 16 bits to the right
19:41:41  <Yexo> I think it should be 82 42 10 FF
19:41:47  <andythenorth> hmm
19:42:05  <andythenorth> that means something else is broken elsewhere (this was copy and paste)
19:42:07  <andythenorth> I'll test, thanks
19:42:35  <andythenorth> yexo: solved, thanks
19:44:29  * andythenorth doesn't delete code like a baby :P
19:47:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r21346 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix (r2592): buffer overflow in strgen for strings with very large arguments
19:47:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r21347 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Cleanup: remove an unused feature from strgen and remove some ifs where we already know the result
19:48:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r21348 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix (r21346): some compilers complain about int-uint comparisons
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20:11:54  <andythenorth> Hirundo: the amount of smoke effect vehicles any vehicle adds could sanely be limited to <8
20:12:09  <andythenorth> there's no case for more
20:12:23  <andythenorth> I think <5 might handle even weird cases
20:17:30  <Hirundo> I think it'll add up fairly quickly
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20:17:47  <Hirundo> Perhaps it's easier to do smoke plume 1 in tick 1, plume 2 in tick 2 etc
20:18:24  <Hirundo> Thinking about it, there must be a way to use random bits somewhere
20:19:58  <andythenorth> is there a way to do it without setting a flag?
20:20:18  <andythenorth> if high bit is used, do advanced behaviour, otherwise normal
20:20:52  <Hirundo> I think the discussion with MB shows that backwards compatibility is easily broken :)
20:21:14  <andythenorth> indeed
20:21:25  <andythenorth> does that mean it's better to use a flag or some such?
20:21:40  <Hirundo> I'd recommend that, at least for performance
20:22:22  <andythenorth> why is it better?
20:23:10  <Hirundo> What if you'd call the CB 10 of an existing grf that doesn't expect it? Would it show a smoke cloud every tick?
20:23:28  <andythenorth> ugh
20:23:30  <andythenorth> no
20:23:51  <Hirundo> ^^ so you need *something* to distinguish old/new behaviour
20:24:21  <andythenorth> ok
20:24:42  <Rubidium> grf version 8
20:25:09  <Hirundo> don't mention the word!
20:25:25  <Hirundo> I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it
20:26:57  <andythenorth> Hirundo: thanks for the smoke anyway :)  It looks good for HEQS
20:27:52  <Hirundo> How does TTDP handle 8 / 15 bit callbacks at the moment?
20:36:04  <Rubidium> I think roughly how newgrf_callbacks.h says the callbacks are used; I remember frosch doing a massive review a (long) while ago
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20:45:57  <retro> hello
20:46:09  <retro> How can I set rcon when no set in config ?
20:46:16  <retro> Without restart ?
20:48:34  <Rubidium> it/when OpenTTD is started from a cronjob?
20:48:39  <Rubidium> s/it/if/
20:50:01  <retro> started with -f -D
20:51:08  <Rubidium> if compiled with debugging symbols you can attach the debugger to it and possibly modify it
20:52:07  <retro> nopem isn't
20:52:19  <Rubidium> otherwise maybe with editting something from /proc/*, but... those are all more prone to failure than any good way of changing a setting
20:52:41  <retro> ok
20:52:44  <retro> I'm on server.
20:53:02  <retro> When I save it locally, upload savegame
20:53:07  <retro> Can I load it on server ?
20:53:14  <Rubidium> yep
20:53:17  <retro> With rcon ?
20:53:30  <retro> I cann't find any wiki page about rcon and server administrating.
20:53:35  <retro> Wonder
20:53:59  <retro> What is admin password in config.
20:54:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21349 /trunk/docs/multiplayer.txt: -Doc: relayout and tweak the multiplayer documentation a bit; e.g. no real need to tell that the network code was rewritten in 0.3.5
20:54:51  <Rubidium> that's for remote admin, but that's more than likely an empty password and as such not enabled
20:55:05  <Rubidium> see docs/admin_network.txt for a bit more info
20:55:11  <retro> ok, thanks
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21:01:42  <frosch123> Hirundo:
21:02:04  <frosch123> the 8/15 bit callback issue mostly affects callbacks with computed results
21:02:26  <frosch123> however, i actually doubt there are any grfs which exploit 8bit callbacks
21:02:35  <retro> Rubidium: it's really small amount of informations (for server admin)
21:04:05  *** Doorslammer [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:04:27  <avdg> nice, I'm blacklisted on the openttd wiki
21:04:58  <Rubidium> huh?
21:05:04  <Rubidium> (to avdg)
21:06:01  <avdg> warning: Missing argument 4 for wfSpamBlacklistFilterMerged() in /usr/share/mediawiki_extensions/SpamBlacklist/SpamBlacklist.php on line 83 (typed over)
21:06:12  <Hirundo> frosch123: thanks for the info
21:06:48  <avdg> I can't copy the error somehow
21:08:22  <avdg> hmm, does something exists like winGrf?
21:08:59  <avdg>
21:09:42  <andythenorth> "Money is basically what ruined the computer gaming industry"
21:09:47  <andythenorth> what a dumb statement
21:09:52  <andythenorth> oxymoron at best
21:09:57  <Rubidium> avdg: I have no clue what causes that problem
21:10:46  <frosch123> Hirundo: we changed ottd's behaviour back then to match ttdp, except for cb 36
21:10:47  <avdg> I bet there are some 'bad' links, or I'm adding too many links
21:11:08  <avdg> I'll try the version with less links
21:11:58  <avdg> hmm, that works
21:12:48  <avdg> oh, I had to read the error
21:12:54  * andythenorth forgot to eay
21:12:56  <andythenorth> eat even
21:13:03  <andythenorth> lack of food == worse spelling than usual
21:13:23  <andythenorth> should I release HEQS 0.9.6?  Seeing as I've tagged it and all
21:13:37  <avdg> is blocked by the spamfilter
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21:15:28  <Hirundo> frosch123: is using the high bits of CB10 expected to be a problem?
21:21:09  <frosch123> it is very unlikely that someone returns a computed result
21:21:13  <frosch123> so it is unlikely to break
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21:45:30  <frosch123> night
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21:58:51  <andythenorth> new game time
21:58:57  <andythenorth> temperate or tropic?
22:00:22  <Rubidium> toyland!
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22:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause> alpine-mod with firs-mod
22:01:53  <andythenorth> fail
22:02:45  <andythenorth> tropic I guess
22:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> (the firs-mod is basically commenting out the check for alpine-incompatibility ;))
22:08:38  * andythenorth wonders what RV set to use
22:08:51  <andythenorth> are there any good rv sets besides eGRVTS?
22:09:11  <Eddi|zuHause> most are incomplete...
22:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there are almost no truck sets
22:09:33  *** Lurimax [] has joined #openttd
22:09:44  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone always provides trams and busses first
22:10:10  <andythenorth> and yet buses are all essentially the same :P
22:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and HEQS has no small general purpose trucks...
22:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so there's a gap somehow...
22:10:59  <andythenorth> indeed
22:11:03  <andythenorth> it's BANDIT shaped :P
22:11:20  <andythenorth> I need to 1.0 something before I start that though
22:12:44  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:13:17  <Ammler> there are some trucks in 4lv, aren't?
22:13:59  <Zuu> Yes 4 or 5 trucks or so.
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22:14:10  <Zuu> which are refittable to any cargo.
22:14:18  <Zuu> (except for pax of course)
22:14:36  <andythenorth> does cold weather make broadband slower?
22:14:49  <andythenorth> cold fibre :P
22:15:17  <Ammler> and isn't there a czech or romanian set?
22:15:38  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yes, though socially not technically
22:15:39  <Ammler> and na, there are lots :-)
22:16:07  <andythenorth> people should go to the pub
22:16:14  <andythenorth> and stop using my bandwidth :P
22:16:26  <Prof_Frink> You should go to the pub,
22:16:31  <andythenorth> I should go to bed
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22:18:39  <Zuu> Though, if you have a radio link it can get worse in bad weather.
22:19:02  <Zuu> Depending on the frequency used.
22:24:49  <andythenorth> how do I get mountains in tropic?
22:24:50  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:25:32  <Ammler> SmatZ: has a patch
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22:39:36  <Ammler> [23:26] <andythenorth> how do I get mountains in tropic? <-- [23:27] <Ammler> SmatZ: has a patch
22:40:03  <andythenorth> is it easily available?
22:40:36  <Ammler> <-- this one maybe?
22:40:43  <andythenorth> I can probably hack it myself if I can be bothered
22:41:18  <andythenorth> yeah, looks quite simple :D
22:41:27  <Ammler> :-)
22:41:38  <andythenorth> playing patched versions is often a bad idea though :P
22:41:41  <andythenorth> I end up with dead savegames
22:42:15  <Ammler> don't think this one is needed after creating the map
22:42:29  <Ammler> so quite save compatbile
22:43:43  <Ammler> mountainious tropic is like snow in temperate, why don't devs like that? ;-)
22:44:03  <Xaroth> hrnf
22:44:13  <Xaroth> my admin port lib works, now what to do with it :P
22:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21350 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: some indentation
22:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> am i really talking this ununderstandably? (re )
22:45:06  <Xaroth> bit vague, yes
22:46:08  <Rubidium> Ammler: because people aren't really thinking about the side effects of said changes?
22:46:35  <Rubidium> e.g. mountainous tropic means loads of tropic and little to no desert
22:46:44  <Ammler> yep
22:47:02  <Ammler> you might need to rerender the map many times
22:47:17  <Ammler> else you don't have a town which can use water
22:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't a lot of mountains in tropic area... the Andes, Kilimandjaro, some volcanos in indonesia...
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22:50:01  <Ammler> rocky mountains
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22:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause> those are not very tropical, but they're practically the same as the andes otherwise...
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22:53:01  * avdg is looking at the slow openttd wiki that is still loading
22:53:02  <planetmaker> Atlas
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22:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... all that this needs is a tweak to the landscape variation, so you get wide low flat areas and few steep high areas mixed
22:55:21  <Rubidium> avdg: yes, the wiki is horridly slow... but I've tried a dozens of things to speed it up. Nothing seems to work reliably
22:56:02  <avdg> wikimedia *is* slow
22:56:17  <avdg> running on my pc, it can only handle 10 pages a second
22:57:22  <avdg> but mine version can handle a lot more optimalisations
22:59:16  <avdg> looks like it works again
23:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the software is called mediawiki
23:03:03  <avdg> yeah, I mixes both all the time (both exists)
23:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> wikimedia is the legal entity that runs wikipedia
23:03:43  <avdg> you mean a tweaked mediawiki
23:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the ones you would sue if something illegal was happening...
23:06:44  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
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23:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> furry-things-that-make-miau are somewhat inefficient fly catchers...
23:20:32  <Prof_Frink> You're using it wrong.
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23:31:08  <retro> When I compile last nightly (
23:31:23  <retro> Revision is norev00 (it warned me during configuration).
23:31:33  <retro> How can I change it to r21345 ?
23:31:36  <retro> Some parameter ?
23:31:40  <Rubidium> use a svn checkout
23:32:02  <Rubidium> (or mercurial)
23:32:34  <Rubidium> it even saves you from downloading ~7 MiB per day
23:32:42  <retro> Rubidium: :(
23:32:47  <retro> Rubidium: I'm writing smart script.
23:32:59  <Xaroth> it clearly isn't -that- smart :P
23:33:04  <retro> I prefer git.
23:33:10  <Rubidium> then use git
23:33:14  <retro> How can I point to last nigthly revision ?
23:33:15  <Xaroth> there's also git
23:33:33  <retro> I know.
23:33:36  <Rubidium> use to get the last revision
23:33:40  <retro> But r21345 means SVN revision.
23:33:40  <Xaroth>
23:34:08  <Xaroth> nightlies are just whatever revision the svn is at <X> time during every day
23:34:16  <Rubidium> and then your script can go through the git log to figure out what's r21345 of trunk. Compile that and the version will be magically right
23:34:35  <Rubidium> Xaroth: if <X> is a variables, then yes :)
23:34:58  <Xaroth> else I would have put in a fixed value :)
23:35:24  <retro> Xaroth: I understand.
23:35:28  <Rubidium> it could also be a substiture for a constant
23:37:23  <Xaroth> true that
23:37:36  <Rubidium> especially with OpenTTD's coding style that all capitalised = constant
23:38:08  <Xaroth> so i've noticed :P
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23:44:23  <retro> And any chance to write revision tag before compiling ?
23:44:58  <Xaroth> the find version script should do that
23:45:14  <retro> ./configure --revision maybe
23:45:27  <Xaroth> rev.cpp :)
23:46:05  <retro> it did own work
23:46:12  <retro> that parameter to configure script
23:48:14  <Rubidium> I really hope you're not going to use NewGRFs on your server
23:49:24  <Rubidium> oyasuminasai
23:50:39  <Xaroth> nn rubi
23:51:12  <Terkhen> good night
23:51:21  <retro> Rubidium: why ?
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23:58:23  <avdg> gn

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