Log for #openttd on 29th November 2010:
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00:06:30  <retro> Rubidium:  ?
00:06:54  <Xaroth> retro
00:07:03  <Xaroth> his 'oyasuminasai' meant 'good night'.
00:07:17  <Xaroth> so I doubt he's around to answer
00:22:15  <retro> Xaroth: pl, thanks
00:22:17  <retro> ok
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01:21:13  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:37:44  <Mazur> Halo.
01:38:27  * Mazur is almost tempted to say: :"Can I ask you guys a question?"
01:39:04  <Mazur> Damn, noone bites.
01:39:14  <Mazur> All asleep here, too.
01:39:33  <retro> Mazur ?
01:39:41  <Mazur> Good morning.
01:40:07  * Mazur is looking for sojmeone to join in Coop to implement a solution he just figured.
01:41:13  <Mazur> I know some occasional players hand here, so I tried to tempt one out of half-sleep.
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01:42:14  <Mazur> Alas, poor roboboy.  I knew him, Horatio.
01:42:53  <Mazur> As you maybe can tell, I'm a tad bored, as well.
01:43:11  <Mazur> So I'll move over and entertain myself elsewhere.
01:45:32  <retro> Mazur: sorry.
01:45:37  <retro> Mazur: I'm playing own game.
01:45:48  <retro> Mazur: And preparing to sleep.
01:46:46  <Mazur> 's Cool, I could only ask.
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06:50:54  <Terkhen> good morning
06:59:54  <Rubidium> retro: because --revision doesn't set the NewGRF version and as such some NewGRF will fail to load on your server whereas they will load on the clients which will eventually cause desyncs
07:00:22  <Rubidium> good morning Terkhen
07:12:28  <planetmaker> good morning
07:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> good snowing
07:15:30  <planetmaker> also that:-)
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07:52:45  <retro> Rubidium: will be later
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08:11:38  <avdg> good morning
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08:12:05  <planetmaker> moin avdg
08:16:16  <planetmaker> Thanks George for uploading LV4 :-)
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09:30:44  <retro> Rubidium: hello
09:30:49  <retro> Rubidium: what was the problem ?
09:33:34  <retro> Rubidium: with own nightly build and adding valid --revision to configuration process ?
09:34:37  <Noldo> what do you mean by valid?
09:36:18  <retro> Noldo: I'll download ex.
09:36:29  <retro> And add --revision=r21345 to configuration
09:37:38  <planetmaker> retro: the problem is that newgrfs won't know about your faked revision number
09:38:01  <retro> planetmaker: but it is not faked
09:38:01  <planetmaker> thus you'll get into trouble when using newgrfs which query that when joining or hosting multiplayer games with such newgrfs
09:38:28  <retro> planetmaker: it is really revision 21345
09:38:30  <planetmaker> it is, as the newgrf version depends on the VCS's version
09:38:58  <retro> planetmaker: but the server is really on revision 21345
09:39:00  <planetmaker> With tars the configure version script has no means to verify that, thus gives 0
09:39:19  <retro> planetmaker: when you add --revision parameter, it set it
09:39:37  <planetmaker> the displayed version. But not the one reported to newgrfs.
09:39:44  <planetmaker> that's two entirely different things
09:40:08  <retro> planetmaker: ohh, ok
09:40:27  <retro> planetmaker: so it is not possible to compile that archive and get everthing ok ?
09:40:38  <retro> planetmaker: need to checkout svn revision and build that ?
09:40:45  <Terkhen> yes
09:40:47  <planetmaker> Yes
09:40:53  <planetmaker> or hg or git
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09:41:03  <retro> planetmaker: understand, any vcs
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09:41:21  <retro> So the question is now, why there is something like that archive i posted up ?
09:41:29  <retro> When it is not usable to run server ?
09:41:46  <Terkhen> retro: GPL compliance IIRC
09:41:57  <planetmaker> It's the correct archive. Just the configuration gives different results when you run the script
09:42:51  <Terkhen> hmm... were binaries compiled with different vcs compatible?
09:42:56  <planetmaker> And having the version detection like it is now is one of our means to make sure that there are not zillions of reports about desyncs which are just due to people re-declariong their patched version X as Y
09:43:04  <planetmaker> Terkhen: they are
09:43:16  <planetmaker> or I'd always desync in the last years :-)
09:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> imho the make-source-tarball-script is lacking a proper override for the revision check, it needs to be fixed.
09:43:26  <retro> So the binaries are not compiled from that archive ?
09:43:31  <planetmaker> But it's a solely empirical observation
09:43:57  <retro> I mean nightly builds.
09:44:14  <planetmaker> Not entirely sure. I *think* svn checkout
09:44:18  <Terkhen> no, they are probably compiled from a subversion checkout
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09:45:01  <planetmaker> it is 100% the same source, though
09:45:07  <retro> ok, still don't know why the sources are posted with it - when they're not good for running server
09:45:15  <planetmaker> As said: just configure gives a different result in presence of a VCS
09:45:19  <retro> but I know how to build correct server binaries
09:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: yes, unmodified hg/git checkouts get the svn revision from the commit log
09:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the tricky part is determining what constitutes "unmodified"
09:46:27  <planetmaker> indeed
09:46:44  <planetmaker> and there's no means to determine that for plain tar balls
09:47:08  <planetmaker> such the NoRev000 (or similar)
09:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a crude mmthod would be file modification date
09:47:32  <planetmaker> retro: basically this procedure saves us TONS of bogus bug reports
09:47:46  <retro> planetmaker: yes, without that parameter revision is NoRev000
09:47:49  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that'd fail more often than not
09:47:51  <retro> planetmaker: sure
09:47:59  <planetmaker> besides: touch...
09:48:01  <retro> planetmaker: but it confused me a lot
09:48:13  <planetmaker> it's not obvious, I agree
09:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: basically what Rubidium was trying to say is that additonal to configuring the (network) revision you also need to configure the newgrf-revision
09:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there *should* be a second configure option for that
09:49:24  <planetmaker> then everyone would fake that, too
09:49:33  <planetmaker> and nothing won. And we could just unify that
09:49:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole thing is fairly underdocumented
09:50:16  <planetmaker> I think it has a reason :-P
09:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if everything fails, you can always just hack manually
09:50:44  <retro> It is easier to checkout needed svn revision.
09:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause> indeed ;)
09:51:07  <planetmaker> it will also save you download bandwidth in the future
09:51:28  <retro> The reason why am I asking is I prefer git. And it is more work to find that revision (parse commit messages).
09:51:52  <planetmaker> no. Just use git and go for it. Use the --revision with that and you're fine
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09:52:09  <planetmaker> otherwise git will report the git-specific version, though
09:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: yes, it has more work, but it is implemented and you don't have to worry about it
09:52:29  <retro> sorry, but you don't understand me
09:52:40  <planetmaker> obviously.
09:52:40  <retro> I'm running nightly build server.
09:52:45  <planetmaker> So?
09:52:45  <retro> And I'm writing script.
09:52:50  <planetmaker> And?
09:53:34  <planetmaker> git update && ./configure --revision=$NIGHTLY_REV && make
09:53:43  <planetmaker> speaking in pseudo code
09:54:11  <planetmaker> the NIGHTLY_REV you obtain via curl from and update git to that rev, configure it appropriately and you're set
09:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he means exactly the part of "git update to correct rev"
09:56:08  <planetmaker> <-- retro that works for svn
09:56:10  <planetmaker> for us
09:56:29  <planetmaker> use it under the license of GPL v2+
09:56:33  <planetmaker> if you like
09:56:34  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: using git is fairly useless if you don't plan to include local modifications
09:56:38  <retro> planetmaker: thank you, i'll read it later
09:57:01  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: I'm writing script in Ruby - it has perfect bindings to git and I know that well
09:57:04  <planetmaker> it's a shell script which updates to the current nightly
09:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: i'm fairly sure ruby also has bindings for svn which will be even simpler to use
09:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: and with svn you trivially can use the finger results for checking out the right revision
09:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like 3 lines of code...
10:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> svn up -r$(curl | awk) && make
10:00:28  <planetmaker> jo. that's what the pasted script does ;-)
10:00:41  <planetmaker> including writing its own finger file etc pp
10:02:04  <retro> I have something like this - curl |  awk '{print NR==3}'
10:02:17  <retro> just need to supres curl output
10:02:54  <planetmaker> grep -v
10:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> err
10:03:10  <retro> finally don't need
10:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> awk /trunk/{ print blah }
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10:03:16  <retro> I can parse revision
10:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> awk has builtin grep, you know...
10:03:54  <retro> And when I checkout latest git
10:04:14  <retro> and build with --revision=r21345 (or without r) it will be ok ?
10:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: there is a script that can get the svn revision from the git log
10:05:05  <planetmaker> well. I pasted a way which works. Just use it as template
10:05:22  <planetmaker> but yes
10:05:22  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: I can handle this.
10:05:32  <retro> ok, thanks all
10:05:42  <retro> I'll try to write it after work.
10:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling you're suffering from "not invented here" syndrome...
10:06:06  <planetmaker> :-) I share that feeling
10:06:06  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: nope
10:06:39  <retro> I want to write more general build script and OpenTTD will be first sample.
10:06:43  <retro> Because I like it.
10:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: you are determined to pull through with your idea, no matter how often other people tell you that other approaches would be waaaaaaay easier
10:06:53  <retro> I'm just having fun with this.
10:07:20  <retro> It is not my idea, I'm just asking how to build right OpenTTD for server.
10:07:28  <retro> Rubidium told me, I'm doing it bad.
10:07:34  <retro> And I prefer git.
10:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure whether "pull through" is an actual english phrase :p
10:07:38  <retro> That's all.
10:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> <retro> And I prefer git. <- that's exactly what i mean
10:08:16  <planetmaker> retro: the main point is that you seem to go your pre-determined way, no matter what other (good) advice on other already existing paths exist. Just my impression
10:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "i know git, therefore i MUST use it"
10:08:45  <planetmaker> so... enjoy your head-through-the wall approach :-)
10:10:17  <retro> I can handle SVN too.
10:10:29  <Xaroth> then why so stubborn with git :P
10:10:30  <avdg> use it, saves a lot efford
10:10:32  <peter1138> i like git
10:10:45  <retro> But to write a nice clean ruby code is grit (git ruby binding) nice.
10:10:48  <avdg> I have a git and svn repo
10:10:51  <retro> SVN bindings are not nice.
10:11:22  <planetmaker> but the only way to build releases
10:11:37  <planetmaker> that fails for git and hg
10:11:59  <retro> That's why I'm asking here before I'm writing script.
10:12:18  <retro> So please don't be pissed on me.
10:12:32  <Xaroth> if people were pissed at you you wouldn't be here :)
10:12:48  <planetmaker> :-D
10:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: you ask here, everyone tells you that svn is best to achieve your goal, yet you ignore everybody's advice.
10:13:04  <planetmaker> Xaroth: usually I prefer the ignore command in those cases
10:13:11  <Xaroth> planetmaker: you, perhaps :P
10:13:17  <planetmaker> I know... ;-)
10:13:19  <Xaroth> ;)
10:13:24  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not ignoring it. Just asking about git.
10:13:25  * planetmaker pets DorpsGek - good guy :-)
10:14:03  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: I'll probably use SVN after this chat.
10:14:21  <DorpsGek> hmmm.... *purr* *purr*
10:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> retro: what works with svn in 3 lines of code, you'd neet 30 lines of code with GIT. i.e. half a day's worth of development time
10:14:41  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: but that's not fun! :P
10:14:42  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: I'll send you a git code that can handle that in 3 lines too later if you want.
10:14:42  <Rubidium> pfff... in perl everything can be done with one line :)
10:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i mean logical lines, not syntactical lines :p
10:15:31  <avdg> Eddi: git is already more work from the first line of code, but you have more control about the source
10:15:32  <Rubidium> then the language isn't high level enough
10:15:38  <planetmaker> hehe. I strangely feel Eddi's statement confirmed by '...later...' ;-)
10:17:57  <Rubidium> before or after dbset 0.9?
10:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i have pretty much given up my hope of that... i'd settle for newstations...
10:24:45  <retro> I have finally idea - script that will connect SVN revision numers and GIT commit SHA's
10:25:09  <Xaroth> oh boy
10:25:36  <avdg> isn't that a bit overdoing?
10:26:05  <retro> Don't know, maybe will be useful for more people.
10:26:14  <avdg> I just build them
10:26:34  <avdg> it works, but it has an other number
10:26:43  <avdg> actually, hash
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11:49:16  <Wolf01> hello
11:50:08  <retro> Wolf01: hello
11:50:38  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
11:50:53  <__ln__> night Wolf01
11:51:17  <Wolf01> it's already night there, __ln__?
11:51:54  <__ln__> fortunately not
11:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> dangling buffer content from last conversation :p
11:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> we should greet all Blitzquitters this way :p
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11:59:25  <Arie-> and again
11:59:54  <Arie-> f5-ing a single server changes server every refresh
12:00:00  <Arie-> on the openttd website
12:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
12:00:35  <Arie-> well, it's strange
12:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you get to meet new people ;)
12:00:44  <Arie-> :)
12:00:53  <Arie-> i was just taking a look at my own one
12:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you're a sad person :p
12:01:12  <Arie-> but then i noticed that the ip ddress is right, but everything else is false info
12:01:47  <Arie-> i'm a sad person, thats wrong as well
12:01:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the best way from here is probably opening a bug report in the "website" project
12:02:18  <Arie-> now I get an "unhandled exeption"
12:04:12  <Arie-> ok i'll do that
12:04:47  <Arie-> i noticed this once before, but then when i started making screenshots all was normal agina
12:09:56  <Rubidium> it works fine for me
12:15:42  <Arie-> yep all is normal again now
12:16:04  <Arie-> oops, forgot to crop the screenshots
12:18:02  <Arie-> hmmm
12:18:14  <Arie-> something went wrong with the submision of the report
12:26:25  <Arie-> done, submitted
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12:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> # Sie amputierten ihm sein letztes Bein
12:56:05  <Eddi|zuHause> # Und jetzt kniet er sich wieder richtig rein
12:56:49  <Ammler> böse!
12:56:53  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: What are you watching, some kinda doctor-show? :)
12:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a song... "Bruttosozialprodukt"
12:57:15  <norbert79> ah
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13:08:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21352 /trunk/config.lib: -Codechange: remove some unneeded code from config.lib
13:08:27  <retro> Ammler: you're not running your script every day ?
13:08:35  <Ammler> which?
13:08:43  <retro> Ammler: openttdcoop aren't current nightlies
13:08:49  <Ammler> no
13:08:58  <Ammler> we update mostly when we start a new game
13:09:06  <Ammler> aprox once a week
13:09:12  <retro> Ammler: oh, ok
13:09:35  <Ammler> or if there is a bug or whatever...
13:09:56  <Rubidium> or when someone asks for it :)
13:10:31  <planetmaker> :-) Or that
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14:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh... grey-furry-thing-that-is-wet-and-makes-miau...
14:15:17  <Rubidium> SeaCat?
14:18:10  <Belugas> hello
14:20:07  <Terkhen> hello Belugas
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14:22:23  <Belugas> hi hi Terkhen :)
14:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: more snowcat ;)
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14:26:59  <hantori> ...
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14:29:18  <Belugas> that was quite a nice message..
14:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> thanks for your valuable input.
14:29:18  <Belugas> he made his point though...
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14:29:18  <Belugas> 3 times :D
14:29:18  <Terkhen> :D
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14:29:32  <Rubidium> ---------------------------------
14:29:55  <planetmaker> :-P
14:29:55  <Belugas> oj, so don't cross that line!
14:30:06  <planetmaker> ---/---
14:30:08  <planetmaker> but that ^
14:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a cross? :p
14:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling if it goes on like this we're beating 15cm...
14:52:22  <Rubidium> 15cm of snow on a single day is like nothing compared to 150mm of rain on a single day
14:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: until it all melts :p
14:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but why is snow measured in cm, but rain in mm?
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14:53:31  <Rubidium> but snow is like 10 times less dense than water, so it'd only be 15mm of water/rain
14:54:13  <Rubidium> Master Kong :)
14:54:43  <Rubidium> yeah, I'm making no sense
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15:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause> # Am I frozen? But it's summer! Is that rain or is that me?
15:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> # Yes I'm melting, please be happy, One day soon, we might just swim
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16:03:18  <IchGuckLive> Hi all !
16:04:09  <IchGuckLive> why is the cost to fond a sawmill ,almost as high as a powerstation ?  in real a sawmill is 1/3 of a powerplant
16:06:05  <peter1138> it's not real life :D
16:06:49  <IchGuckLive> B)
16:07:06  <Belugas> it's a shame, isn't it?
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16:07:25  <IchGuckLive> the generator dis all the forest on one side and all the mills to the orher all the trains die out on the long route
16:07:57  <Belugas> bad program, very bad program.  let's close the project, useless piece of junk
16:08:27  <IchGuckLive> nice work to all the programers i love it !!!
16:09:40  <IchGuckLive> there is no cheeet to degree the cost O.o
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16:10:55  * Lakie updates the openttd useeful dev package...
16:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just because you have not found it doesn't mean it doesn't exist ;)
16:12:01  <planetmaker> :-)
16:12:35  <IchGuckLive> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks
16:12:43  <IchGuckLive> go on googleing
16:13:19  <IchGuckLive> are there offical and inoficell cheets
16:13:43  <IchGuckLive> searching wikileaks for openttd
16:14:04  <planetmaker> just search for base cost mod
16:14:11  <planetmaker> and download it from the online content
16:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> most of the "cheats" are hidden here: :p
16:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (yes, i am evil)
16:14:33  <Lakie> Heh, less than out of the box cheats then. ;)
16:14:37  <planetmaker> sorry that I spoilt it ;-)
16:15:07  * Lakie ponders how one uses that sprite aligner tool
16:15:13  <IchGuckLive> Not evil it makes the game just more playable
16:15:29  <planetmaker> Lakie: "select sprite" -> click -> use arrows
16:15:40  <planetmaker> --> not down offsets --> put down in newgrf
16:15:51  <planetmaker> and hope you didn't use autocrop which spoils it ;-)
16:16:11  <Lakie> Heh
16:16:17  <planetmaker> if how == where: in the (?) menu (right most button)
16:16:42  <planetmaker> and you need to enable the newgrf_developer_tools via the console
16:17:06  <Lakie> Ah, did that in the cfg earlier
16:17:08  <Lakie> Thanks
16:17:11  <planetmaker> np
16:17:25  <Lakie> Should make aligning objects more simplistic than tradional hit and miss...
16:17:34  <planetmaker> quite :-)
16:17:56  <planetmaker> when that got introduced it suddenly got a LOT easier to get all those nasty trains in OpenGFX at least somewhat aligned
16:18:12  <planetmaker> and it helped me a lot with the Swedish Rails, too
16:18:25  <Lakie> Heh, I thought they followed a nice template making it easier to align most graphics*
16:18:54  <Lakie> * For some reason that failed with the finnish set due to artists drawing things differently making them look less aligned...
16:19:03  <planetmaker> Well. That, too.
16:19:24  <planetmaker> But you can only carry graphics templates up to a certain point
16:19:39  <planetmaker> Especially when it comes to differently sized vehicles
16:20:09  <planetmaker> Or when it comes to overlay sprites needed only in one place. So... a template for a one-time thing is... ok, but not really a 'template'
16:20:23  <Lakie> Aye
16:20:47  <Lakie> Well, I imagine for trains atleast you'd start from some basic templates for 3/8->8/8
16:21:05  <planetmaker> yes, mostly
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16:21:40  <planetmaker> But in my experience it's hard to convince artists to all use the same. So I end up with a separate template for each ;-)
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16:21:59  <Lakie> Heh, how annoying
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16:22:08  <planetmaker> and hight and low wagons etc. Well.
16:22:12  <Kogut> hi
16:22:21  <planetmaker> It's more or less ok with NML's templating power
16:22:35  <planetmaker> as long as they're just aranged with different x and y offsets withing the files
16:22:48  <planetmaker> and not vary their sizes of the individual sprites
16:23:06  <Lakie> True
16:23:20  <planetmaker> The latter is something I indeed reject, if not needed :-)
16:23:25  <Kogut> Is it possible that more height level (and/or cargodist) will end in trunk?
16:24:19  <IchGuckLive> im trunk with large cargo distance
16:24:31  <planetmaker> for t->∞ certainly
16:25:45  <IchGuckLive> the train run for 460Days and get a loan at 2500 with costs around 7000
16:25:55  <Rubidium> Tegmark says they already are in trunk
16:26:01  <Kogut> what with t->2 years?
16:26:58  <IchGuckLive> so i cheedet the 150 in the config to 720
16:27:59  <IchGuckLive> by and thanks for your help !!
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16:31:32  <Rubidium> it is possible
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16:38:28  <planetmaker> quak :-)
16:38:38  <frosch123> quak :)
16:39:47  <retro> quak :(
16:41:20  <planetmaker> how rude ;-)
16:44:55  <Rubidium> moi
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17:00:49  <fjb> Quak frosch123
17:01:07  <fjb> Moin Rubidium
17:01:11  <fjb> Moin planetmaker
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17:05:11  <planetmaker> hi fjb :-)
17:05:48  <fjb> planetmaker: How is it over there at your place?
17:05:56  <planetmaker> hm... the preset name length restriction stops me saving my current selection as "pm's NewGRF vanity" :-P
17:06:11  <planetmaker> fjb: snowy and damn cold
17:06:58  <planetmaker> probably you have even more snow than I do?
17:07:09  <fjb> So it is the same as here in the south (relative to your place).
17:07:19  <fjb> About 50cm.
17:07:30  <fjb> At some places.
17:07:39  <planetmaker> ui. Na, we have something like < 1cm, but it remains.
17:08:00  <planetmaker> yesterday noon it was like -5°C. I didn't look today noon
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17:09:31  <planetmaker> I got a few nice shots of frosty trees and alike, though :-)
17:09:44  <fjb> Some roads are closed because some trees could not withstand the load.
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17:10:07  <Belugas> mmh..  based on those funny comments, i now realize it's not as bad as i though
17:10:22  <Belugas> in fact, our weather is quite good :)
17:10:28  <fjb> I guess that will not be your last icy pictures this winter.
17:10:55  <Belugas> but granter, i have less opportunities of takinsome nice photos :)
17:11:30  <fjb> Not that much problem with the weather now. We are used to it (most of us). :)
17:16:46  <planetmaker> indeed, I think it won't be my last winter pictures ;-)
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17:25:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21353 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19056)[FS#4277]: New railtypes with overlays did not use the shore sprites as groundtiles for three-corner-raised slopes (at shore).
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18:43:21  <Devedse> Is there a way to increase the speed at which clients can download the map from a server?
18:43:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21354 /trunk/src/lang/ (english_US.txt french.txt italian.txt):
18:43:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:43:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
18:43:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:15  <Rubidium> Devedse: get the server a faster upstream connection?
18:46:43  <Devedse> Rubidium, I got a 1 gbit connection and it still takes about 20 seconds for a 7 mb map to download
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18:47:03  <Devedse> Where as normal file transfers go with 60 mbyte / sec
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18:48:10  <Rubidium> then I've got no clue; downloads are always near instantanious for me
18:48:44  <Devedse> Also the 2048 x 2048 maps?
18:50:38  <Rubidium> yes, but never near 7 MB
18:51:06  <Rubidium> sounds like it's some network tuning setting somewhere
18:53:12  <Ammler> Devedse: is it the downloaded or the loading?
18:53:25  <Devedse> Downloading
18:55:19  <Devedse> Ammler, Rubidium, it downloads with 210 kb / sec
18:55:39  <Ammler> is the server public, I could try...
18:55:44  <Devedse> That's about my normal internet upload speed
18:56:01  <Devedse> But I can't imagine its using my internet to upload it to outside and then internally again
18:56:22  <Devedse> Ammler, won't help since you will walk against my upload speed which is around 200 kb
18:56:25  <Ammler> depends on the routing
18:56:27  <Rubidium> during my LZMA tests there were plenty of clients that downloaded with like 1+ MiB/s
18:57:01  <Ammler> if you use your public ip to connect to your server, the traffic might go over it, if that works at all
18:57:53  <Devedse> I just tryed only for "lan"
18:57:56  <Devedse> and still only get 200 kb
18:58:51  <Rubidium> well, over "real" internet 1+ MiB/s can be reached, so it smells like a local configuration/tuning issue
18:59:18  <Devedse> Are there any configuration settings in openttd that can possibly limit the upload speed?
18:59:42  <Ammler> Devedse: try to connect on the same maschine
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19:00:52  <Devedse> Ammler, same results
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19:01:13  <Ammler> so you have that slow download without network?
19:02:09  <Devedse> yep
19:02:24  <Devedse> Even if i host on my core i7 laptop and download with that same laptop 200 kb
19:02:31  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
19:03:02  <glx> harddisk access
19:03:38  <Xaroth> wireless or wired?
19:04:33  <Devedse> glx, it's exactly 200 kb on 2 different computers, both wired 1 gbit connection, and if I copy files from one to another it goes with 60 megabyte / second.
19:05:06  <Xaroth> sounds about right
19:05:17  <Devedse> Lemme try with unplugged internet
19:05:19  <Devedse> brb :)
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19:07:51  <Devedse> Even with my internet unplugged I got the same resulst
19:07:56  <Devedse> results*
19:08:55  <Devedse> Btw, my server is running with the client open, so not dedicated, can that have anything to do with it?
19:10:40  *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:12:39  <Devedse> Nope, dedicated server still is only 200kb, glx, Xaroth, Rubidium, Ammler :)
19:13:31  <Devedse> I'm afk for a while, might be back later.
19:14:40  <Ammler> Xaroth: that doesn't sound right :-P
19:15:00  * Xaroth shrugs
19:15:04  <Ammler> Devedse: no need to highlight everyone
19:15:14  <Xaroth> he's dutch, you can't blame him :P
19:15:22  <Devedse> Yea im dutch you can't blame me ;(
19:15:29  <Ammler> @kban *.nl
19:15:29  <DorpsGek> Ammler: Error: *.nl is not in #openttd.
19:15:58  * Devedse is verry scared now :o
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19:19:30  <Ammler> Devedse: I can confirm that as a openttd issue
19:19:42  <Devedse> Ammler, the download problem?
19:19:45  <Ammler> just created 2k² map
19:20:07  <Ammler> which got 6 mb, joining with 2nd client was instant
19:20:57  <Devedse> hmm
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19:21:02  <Devedse> I wonder what I'm doing wrong then
19:21:05  <Ammler> windows?
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19:21:45  <Devedse> ye
19:21:57  <Devedse> have to go now, I'm back in 40 min or something
19:22:09  <Ammler> then you might have the explaination
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19:48:32  <andythenorth> 
19:48:41  <andythenorth> maybe more, maybe less
19:51:26  <Kogut> for what?
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19:53:20  <andythenorth> 'how much would you pay' question?
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19:53:43  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I haven't tried partial refit with HEQS trams, but I would suspect all kinds of badness
19:54:02  <andythenorth> the trams are an exciting mix of visible and invisible vehicles, not necessarily in the order you'd expect
19:54:13  <Kogut> it is possible to select part of wagon, insible sprites etc
19:54:37  <Kogut> graphics changes in odd way
19:54:47  <andythenorth> they're really a clever technical solution to limitations of road vehicles
19:55:15  <andythenorth> I suspect if we try to make smarter ways to refit road vehicles, clever newgrf solutions start to break
19:55:41  <Kogut> but it is possible to have indystrial tram with 200 tonnes of coal and 10 crates of engineering supplies
19:56:02  <Kogut> and it is in my personal patchpack
19:56:19  <andythenorth> that's encouraging
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20:12:51  <Kogut> andythenorth: Thanks for FIRS & HEQS!
20:13:36  <andythenorth> np
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20:23:47  <andythenorth> Kogut: found any bugs in HEQS 0.9.6?
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20:26:11  <Ammler> TrueBrain: how do you connect to your drupal, which nginx module?
20:27:27  <andythenorth> Ammler: django?
20:27:30  <Ammler> (wondering if I should try something else than passenger for the hg server)
20:27:38  <Ammler> django, of course :-)
20:27:45  <TrueBrain> fcgi unix socket
20:28:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: what are you trying to connect to?  A framework, or a python wsgi app?
20:28:42  <Xaroth> django <3
20:30:34  <Ammler> TrueBrain: and how do you serve the hg repos, same way?
20:30:52  <TrueBrain> eeeeuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh
20:30:57  <TrueBrain> via tcp socket
20:32:07  <Ammler> hgweb.wsgi?
20:32:20  <TrueBrain> maybe via lighttpd proxied ..
20:32:21  <TrueBrain> dunno
20:32:46  <TrueBrain> playing an MMO atm, 780 people on one grid .. kind of busy :D
20:33:24  <Devedse> TrueBrain, eve online?
20:33:28  <TrueBrain> :D
20:33:33  <Ammler> oh sorry, don't let you disturb :-P
20:33:49  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I meant, I can't look it up, and my memory is not that good ..
20:34:04  <Ammler> nah, it is fine
20:35:00  <Ammler> nginx does have uwsgi in core now
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20:43:22  <andythenorth> wsgi seems to be a nice thing
20:43:38  <andythenorth> I don't do anything with it, but it seems to not suck
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20:47:14  <TrueBrain> the next big buzz-word ;)
20:47:17  <TrueBrain> no, it actually is good :)
20:47:26  <TrueBrain> CGI, but done right ;)
20:48:20  <andythenorth> I remember reading the zope pope's opinion on CGI once.
20:48:20  <andythenorth> he was basically horified
20:48:30  <TrueBrain> any sane person would be
20:48:59  <andythenorth> he came up with Zope, which may not have been a sane answer :P
20:49:26  <TrueBrain> WSGI is a nice, efficient, fast, and open protocol
20:49:32  <TrueBrain> seems to work rather nice :)
20:50:25  <Zuu> So in other words it will take forever before IIS adds support for it? :-p
20:50:34  <andythenorth> we use it a lot for gluing python stuff together
20:50:34  <TrueBrain> of course, of course
20:50:39  <andythenorth> repoze is clever too
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20:52:48  <TrueBrain> Ammler: owh, it is worse: hgweb runs via plain cgi
20:53:55  <Ammler> runs with passenger/wsgi
20:54:09  <Ammler> but still with standalone python server
20:54:11  <Ammler> :-)
20:54:47  <Ammler> I have troubles to get authentication working with passenger and so i am looking for other things
20:55:54  <TrueBrain> you can't push to our hg, so ..
20:56:18  <Ammler> devs push over ssh, I assume
20:56:24  <TrueBrain> yup
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21:42:31  <planetmaker> will vehicles with 0 power and 0 capacity be available?
21:43:23  <andythenorth>  try it and see?
21:43:40  <andythenorth> I know from experience yesterday, they should if that's set via cb36
21:43:53  <andythenorth> brake vans are
21:43:56  <andythenorth> in UKRS etc
21:44:42  <planetmaker> yeah, I'm trying to implement a caboose
21:45:33  <planetmaker> but I don't see it (yet) ingame - thus I wonder whether I do something wrong or whether some of my assumptions are wong ;-)
21:45:48  <frosch123> just make sure you set the default cargo slot to 0, and they will be available
21:46:03  <andythenorth> frosch123: how do you know all this stuff? :P
21:46:11  <andythenorth> and you never coded a vehicle grf :P
21:46:40  <frosch123> <- but i did that picture :p
21:47:11  * andythenorth has seriously wrong internet today :P
21:47:16  <andythenorth> and can't see the picture
21:47:53  <frosch123> how wrong can the internet be if you cannot see .png :s
21:48:24  <andythenorth> v. slow
21:48:29  <andythenorth> for images and video
21:48:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i know that internet.
21:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but i thought i had the full share of this :p
21:48:40  <andythenorth> guess UK ISPs are profiling traffic
21:48:50  <andythenorth> they're not supposed to, but they probably have to
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22:03:16  <Belugas> home, here i go toward Thou!
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22:05:21  * fjb waves good bye to Belugas.
22:06:09  <fjb> frosch123: What did you use to make that nice diagram?
22:07:34  <frosch123> "dot" from "graphviz"
22:07:43  <frosch123> just take a look at the source :)
22:08:25  <fjb> Ah, I know about dot, but I never used it.
22:11:43  * fjb is learning Eclipse at the moment.
22:13:07  <frosch123> the bloated ide?
22:13:16  <Rubidium> the stupid movie?
22:13:46  <fjb> The ide, not the movie (what ever movie that may be).
22:13:46  <Prof_Frink> The last track on DSotM?
22:14:25  <fjb> It has a nice remote debugging feature.
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22:19:42  <frosch123> night
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22:25:17  <Zuu> Is 25 or even 16 LUX way to much for a bike head light?
22:26:02  *** OwenS [~oshepherd@2002:6d4a:c7b0::1] has joined #openttd
22:26:12  <Zuu> I bought a random front lamp at a bike store last week, but it is soo bad that I can't even turn it off without taking out the batteries.
22:27:07  <Zuu> So I went online and started looking and found out that my old lamp is called a "safety" lamp, and "standard" Sigma lamps do 15-25 LUX.
22:27:42  <Zuu> however, they haven't writtern how strong my old lamp is so it is hard to compare. :-s
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22:29:12  <kickmenot> 0hai
22:29:38  <kickmenot> shix
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22:35:06  <fjb> Lux is relative to the distance.
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22:50:38  <Zuu> I found something on wikipedia saying that 1 Lux = 1 lumen spread over one square meter, which makes it impossible to compare against my low energy "light blubs" that has their lightness written in lumen. :-/
22:51:25  <Zuu> Unless the area is measured on the lamp itself, then it is just a bit of measuring and calculations.
22:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> anything that "spreads" is usually proportional to 1/r^2
22:52:10  <Prof_Frink> In which case, 15-25 lux is bugger all.
22:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> sound, light, ...
22:53:04  <Prof_Frink> Yes, but r is unspecified.
22:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> reading the above it probably means 1m^2 is the surface of the sphere around the source
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22:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so if the surface of a sphere is 4 pi r^2, then you can calculate r
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22:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or the other way round, if you know your distance to the source, you can calculate the surface of the appropriate sphere, and then scale that surface to 1m^2
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23:02:15  <Prof_Frink> Zuu: The single LED in my head torch is about 50 Lumen, which would be 16 lux @ 1m
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23:03:16  <Zuu> Okay
23:03:47  <Zuu> Is it a good strength? Not too weak, but neither too strong to make other bikers crash on you becasue they can't see anything :-p
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23:05:26  <Prof_Frink> Zuu: Most cyclists I know have lights as bright as car headlamps.
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23:06:41  <Prof_Frink> And then more lights strapped to their helmet
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23:40:41  <planetmaker> Zuu: going by my head light (litterally) 50 lumen is what you want at least :-)
23:41:55  <planetmaker> [23:54]	<Eddi|zuHause>	anything that "spreads" is usually proportional to 1/r^2 <-- only monopoles ;-)
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23:45:12  <Terkhen> good night
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23:48:47  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
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23:51:28  <CogsOfGoo> 0hai
23:51:34  <CogsOfGoo> +_+
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23:52:07  <planetmaker> hi
23:53:54  <CogsOfGoo> There's a palette bug in OTTD on ubuntu
23:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> please state the nature of the medical emergency
23:55:10  <glx> CogsOfGoo: blame the video driver
23:55:28  <glx> and try a 32bpp blitter
23:58:25  * Zuu points at FS#4280 (a really trival patch) and hopes it will help to bring the next party closer :-)

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