Log for #openttd on 27th December 2010:
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00:03:44  <Terkhen> good night
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00:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what's up with my internet today
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00:22:14  <z-MaTRiX> sálálá
00:24:10  <__ln__> english only
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00:39:03  <z-MaTRiX> __ln__: ups is cool, if not made in china, i have designed ups too
00:39:26  <Zuu> Hehe, time dependent vehicle max-speed is interesting :-)
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00:40:14  <z-MaTRiX> Zuu: what do you meanby that?
00:41:57  <Zuu> I've set max speed to "5 - Min(4, T() / 30)" where T() is the simulation time (not in OpenTTD, but a traffic junction simulator that I'm writing)
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00:42:59  <Zuu> So the later it get in the simulation, the slower max speed new vehicles get. :-)
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00:46:54  <z-MaTRiX> Zuu: simuate at this speed : "ln(4-T()/30"
00:47:44  <Zuu> You miss the ending parantheses for ln
00:47:58  <z-MaTRiX> oh sorry
00:48:02  <z-MaTRiX> Zuu: simuate at this speed : "ln(4-T()/30)"
00:48:37  <z-MaTRiX> insert eaten it <;
00:53:46  <Wolf01> 'nighty night
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00:58:38  <Zuu> z-MaTRiX: Problem is, your formula gives max-speed < 0 at time zero :-)
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01:07:42  <z-MaTRiX> ;)
01:08:04  <z-MaTRiX> btw why is it a problem?
01:08:23  <z-MaTRiX> you can go back in time
01:10:08  <Zuu> Hmm I was wrong. ln(4) is > 0. I just had a Max-function in there to make the expression work after T = 30*4.
01:10:27  <Zuu> The only problem was that the Max function was implemented as a Min-function ^^ :-)
01:11:12  <z-MaTRiX> yes
01:11:52  <z-MaTRiX> initial speed is 1.38629436
01:12:07  <z-MaTRiX> you can multiply as you like, will do the same
01:15:16  <z-MaTRiX> sure, ln(0) would blow up your computer <;
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01:19:23  <Zuu> However, really the point is to use some kind of randomized properties for the vehicles, so I made an expression intrepreter so you could do simple math and call a limited set of functions.
01:20:09  <Zuu> Otherwise I wolud have to come up with a good GUI :-p
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01:32:30  <z-MaTRiX> i wrote some randomlike rotating random number function in asm few years ago
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01:33:48  <z-MaTRiX> putpixel xy,color seemed random enough
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07:03:42  <LordAro> moin
07:07:52  <LordAro> is there a way to install mercurial on mingw (i'm mostly looking at Terkhen here ;) )
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08:03:01  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
08:03:01  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 16 hours, 39 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yup, agree on that, but imo it is not worth 8 points
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08:05:48  <Rubidium> andythenorth: frosch123 might be seen in #openttd in 7 days: <frosch123> quak
08:06:03  <andythenorth> k
08:06:29  * andythenorth may have to spend some alone time with industry_cmd.cpp
08:06:34  <andythenorth> instead of asking frosch
08:06:40  <Rubidium> this'll be so hilarious if he actually returns in 7 days saying quak first :)
08:11:07  <LordAro> Rubidium & Yexo: apart from modifying regression, is there any other reason why this is not in trunk?
08:12:22  <ccfreak2k> Explorer plugin eh?
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08:19:53  <andythenorth> anyone know if the random production is applied to secondary industry?
08:20:01  <andythenorth> code will tell me (eventually)
08:25:16  * andythenorth wonders
08:25:31  <andythenorth> could default industry ever be reimplemented as newgrf, using base set graphics?
08:25:57  <andythenorth> it would reduce complexity of industry_cmd.cpp some amount
08:26:39  <Terkhen> good morning
08:26:48  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
08:27:05  <Terkhen> LordAro: use the default mercurial installation and add it to your path (but I think it is added after installation by default)
08:27:21  <LordAro> moin Terkhen, any ideas about my above question (7:06)?
08:27:25  <LordAro> soz
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08:40:08  <LordAro> Terkhen: i have added how to install mercurial on mingw, could you check it? (it's very simple :) )
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08:42:49  <Terkhen> that's the wrong place IMO, the tutorial is already complete with SVN
08:43:16  <Terkhen> I think that should go to a "how to get the source code" section in the wiki
08:44:49  <Terkhen> probably in the development section, because binaries compiled with a mercurial repository don't have the correct revision number by default IIRC
08:45:18  <LordAro> ok, give me a page link and i'll edit it
08:49:21  <Terkhen> I don't know if such a page exists :)
08:50:56  <andythenorth> Ammler: *think* I have a fix for FIRS secondary industry closure
08:50:56  <andythenorth> not easy to test though
08:51:05  <andythenorth> it's a logical fix, not an empirical one so far :P
08:51:28  <andythenorth> the closure code checks if storage 0x0A > VALUE, and closes if it is
08:51:40  <LordAro> Terkhen: how about somewhere here? :
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08:51:49  <andythenorth> but I was also writing production amount into 0x0A, which can be SOME_BIG_VALUE
08:51:58  <andythenorth> mistake :|
08:52:39  <Terkhen> LordAro: did you need to add something to the path to make it work in MinGW?
08:52:50  <LordAro> no :)
08:54:34  * andythenorth needs a hand
08:54:56  <andythenorth> run a game logging secondary closure on a savegame where those industries are serviced
08:55:09  <FRQuadrat> Hiho... I'd like to use signals more, but I'm having difficulties recognising them when placed. Is there some extension that makes the signals easier to see / easier to distinguish?
08:55:18  <Terkhen> <--- since it does not need any additional steps, IMO this is enough (it is already linked from the MinGW tutorial)
08:55:41  <LordAro> as i've done?
08:56:11  <LordAro> FRQuadrat: which base graphics set are you using?
08:57:34  <FRQuadrat> yesterday I was using the free replacement, but I've got the TTD set at hand as well
08:57:48  <Terkhen> LordAro: yes
09:02:58  <LordAro> FRQuadrat: try it, see if it makes any difference
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09:04:33  <FRQuadrat> ok
09:04:41  <LordAro> still waiting for some assessment on this patch: ;)
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09:05:15  <LordAro> damn, link is slightly broken, just go to last post
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09:05:44  <FR^2> re
09:08:18  <LordAro> is the patch good enough to be submitted to flyspray?
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09:24:57  <FR^2> LordAro: Not much of a difference - differences between two signal types often come down to a few pixels difference in graphics. Know what I mean?
09:32:14  <LordAro> mmm, perhaps try some signal grfs - north american signals come to mind
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09:35:42  <Zuu> LordAro: Looks good. You could expand the @return comment to include "otherwise false" or so to make it complete.
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09:36:20  <IchGuckLive> Good Morning from bitter cold Germany !
09:37:45  <FR^2> dito
09:38:06  <IchGuckLive> i got a problem ,i got ovewr 1tousend people at a bus station ,city mood is bad,the city has a 2track station  but not connected
09:38:57  <IchGuckLive> i expect if i tear down the Station i can not rebuild  a connected one
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09:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably true.
09:45:10  <IchGuckLive>
09:45:43  <IchGuckLive> also the landscape around is not to build a connected one
09:46:31  <IchGuckLive> best woudt be to build a bus depo and make a transfer route with 4 buses ?
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10:02:00  <Zuu> You can make the station a dual direction station.
10:02:43  <Zuu> You can lower the tile with the hose left of your left platform and make a track go down there and then turn 90 degrees and go over the road.
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10:04:00  <Zuu> If you provide good service to your rail station and harbor station it will possible increase your rating.
10:04:21  <Zuu> I think also your coal station rating influence the town rating but I'm not completely sure.
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10:06:19  <IchGuckLive> thanks Z
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10:40:56  <Yexo> LordAro: that patch looks ok, add that function to the regression test and I'll commit it
10:42:59  <andythenorth> :|
10:43:09  * andythenorth is smacked upside the head by refits (again)
10:44:16  <andythenorth> can cb 15 access ship var 47?
10:44:40  <andythenorth>
10:45:32  <Yexo> most likely yes
10:45:55  * andythenorth experiments a little more
10:47:11  <andythenorth> yes it can
10:47:12  <andythenorth> which is
10:47:13  <andythenorth> odd
10:48:03  <andythenorth> returning capacity value to cb15 depending on class is over-ridden by action 0 capacity property
10:48:11  <andythenorth> if the default cargo is chosen as the refit
10:48:40  * andythenorth experiments with cb36
10:48:53  <andythenorth> cb36 is less efficient than cb15?
10:49:41  * andythenorth ponders shipping something broken but working :P
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10:52:09  <andythenorth> George: what classes does ECS tourists have?
10:52:18  <andythenorth> wiki says PAX
10:52:25  <andythenorth> maybe I'm checking it wrong
10:53:18  <George> andythenorth:                  16 \wx5
10:53:45  <George> 0    1    Passengers
10:53:45  <George> 2    4    Express cargo (any prioritised cargo)
10:53:53  <andythenorth> that's what spec says as well
10:53:57  <andythenorth> my varaction 2 must be wrong
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10:57:03  <z-MaTRiX> h
10:57:23  <z-MaTRiX> 2x jk flipflop, or 2x d-flipflop ? what do you think?
10:58:09  <z-MaTRiX> (speed about same, jk wired together)
10:59:24  <andythenorth> gah
11:00:13  <andythenorth> checking classes means I need some kind of mask to pick out just one class
11:00:16  <andythenorth> didn't think of that
11:00:46  <andythenorth> how do I mask var 47 to check only if bit 0 is set?
11:00:56  <andythenorth> in the cccc part
11:01:00  <andythenorth>
11:01:21  <andythenorth> my code:
11:04:51  <z-MaTRiX> how about shr ax,1; jc _1_ ?
11:05:48  <z-MaTRiX> test ax,1 would do something similar though
11:08:34  <z-MaTRiX>
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11:10:33  <Hirundo> andythenorth: do you want to test 'bit 0 and only bit 0' or 'bit 0 and I don't care about the rest' ?
11:10:44  <andythenorth> bit 0 and I don't care
11:10:53  <andythenorth> I just need to check if bit 0 is set
11:11:01  <andythenorth> I don't care what else is set :)
11:11:32  <Hirundo> use \w1 instead of FFFF as bitmask
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11:12:28  <andythenorth> works, thanks
11:12:46  <z-MaTRiX> andythenorth: btw i answered for you
11:13:13  <andythenorth> thanks :P
11:13:36  <z-MaTRiX> just left out name, thought it was evident
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11:17:53  <ZirconiumX> Hello?
11:18:21  <andythenorth> hello?
11:18:23  <andythenorth> :P
11:18:32  * andythenorth grumbles about escapes for cb results
11:18:34  <ZirconiumX> hello andythenorth :P
11:18:38  <andythenorth> coding this is going to suck
11:18:55  * ZirconiumX agrees with whatever andy is talking about
11:19:14  <ZirconiumX> :P
11:19:32  <ZirconiumX> heh, my ai that isn't
11:19:49  <ZirconiumX> Alberth, you there?
11:22:25  <Alberth> yes
11:23:09  <ZirconiumX> hello, how art thou?
11:23:16  <ZirconiumX> (how are you)
11:23:29  <Alberth> having lunch
11:23:42  <ZirconiumX> enjoy it
11:24:22  <Alberth> was hoping for some feedback on mouse modes and tile highlighting code refactoring, but there isn't, so I am pondering about groups instead
11:24:22  * ZirconiumX mumbles about the fact that food is another hour away...
11:24:35  <Alberth> your food travels in time ?
11:24:48  <ZirconiumX> no the sun does
11:25:00  <ZirconiumX> get my time, it should say 11.23
11:25:04  <ZirconiumX> 11.24
11:25:37  <Alberth> god thing pm is not here, he'd not really agree with sun traveling in this case :)
11:25:49  <ZirconiumX> heh, he's in germany
11:26:14  <ZirconiumX> he's idling, I'm not sure you should have said that...
11:28:19  * Alberth is not too worried, pm is a very friendly guy
11:29:03  <ZirconiumX> So, how's the pre-r1 patch going
11:29:13  <ZirconiumX> has i reached r1 yet
11:29:17  <ZirconiumX> *it
11:29:28  <andythenorth> how many mail bags per t?
11:29:51  <andythenorth> ach, it can wait
11:29:58  <Alberth> paper is quite heavy
11:30:12  <andythenorth> 1t = 1 mailbag for now
11:30:17  <andythenorth> ridiculous, but ho
11:30:41  <andythenorth> unless there are volunteers to help me make FISH do mail refits correctly :)
11:32:11  * ZirconiumX mumbles about the fact my sig's gone, but oh well
11:32:34  <ZirconiumX> Goodbye, and thanks for all the FISH
11:32:58  <ZirconiumX> meh, that should be the end of your FISH dev thread
11:33:40  <andythenorth> heh
11:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't it be "so long"?
11:34:06  <ZirconiumX> Alberth, I've done a rectangular object, now what, bui
11:34:09  <ZirconiumX> yes
11:34:18  <ZirconiumX> the douglas Adams book
11:34:45  <Alberth> andythenorth:  "...Typical office paper has 80 g/m², therefore a typical A4 sheet (1⁄16 m²) weighs 5 g. ..."  (from )
11:34:49  <ZirconiumX> I guess that it's building depotd and roadvehicles
11:35:00  <andythenorth> Alberth: this sort of thing is normally defined somewhere in src
11:35:04  <ZirconiumX> How many letters in a mail bag?
11:35:10  <andythenorth> there's probably a cargos.h or something I should look in
11:35:33  <andythenorth> but I'd have to change my cargo-class-checking bit mask as well :P
11:35:52  <Alberth> ZirconiumX: depends on what you aim to make
11:36:17  <ZirconiumX> I'll go for the AI, made from scratch
11:36:34  <ZirconiumX> the library is something I want to make though
11:36:58  <ZirconiumX> I'm thinking of breaking the trend in licenses
11:37:10  <ZirconiumX> Everyone is using GPL v2
11:37:27  <peter1138> not everyone
11:37:27  <ZirconiumX> CC-BY-NC-SA
11:37:37  <ZirconiumX> is what I think I need
11:37:45  <peter1138> oh, right, for AI libs
11:37:57  <ZirconiumX> and AIs
11:39:03  <ZirconiumX> I don't want someone going and complaining that this doesn't work with their code, screw them *Ahem*
11:40:57  <ZirconiumX> TO make the AI lib I think a pastebin is required
11:41:14  * ZirconiumX hope that mibpaste works now
11:42:04  <ZirconiumX>
11:42:36  <ZirconiumX> the theory's still not complete, but who cares?!?
11:44:02  <Alberth> set a smaller goal than
11:44:06  <Alberth> "the AI"
11:44:36  <ZirconiumX> an AI
11:44:57  <Alberth> you have to think in very small steps
11:45:13  <ZirconiumX> Shall I go for RV's
11:45:28  <ZirconiumX> build Depot, roadvehs and bus stops
11:45:45  <Alberth> +roads between towns :)
11:46:09  <ZirconiumX> how do I do that?
11:46:19  <Alberth> you have to select a town too
11:46:47  * Alberth thinks with the BuildRoad() thingie
11:46:54  <LordAro> AITown::GetLocation(townid) ;)
11:46:58  <ZirconiumX> detect the grass and when an obstical is reached
11:47:09  <ZirconiumX> look for ways around
11:47:12  <Alberth> yep, think in small steps
11:47:20  <ZirconiumX> yes, the good lord is here
11:48:02  <andythenorth> so what, silence says I should do the change to mail capacity too? :P
11:48:10  <andythenorth> or it doesn't matter?
11:48:19  <ZirconiumX> [code]MYSelf.GoDigging[/code]
11:48:23  <andythenorth> any other cargos with weird weights?
11:48:29  <andythenorth> goods has that 2:1 thing going on
11:48:30  <andythenorth> sometimes
11:49:01  <Alberth> andythenorth:  src/table/engines.h has 2 parameters for aircraft, one for #mailbags, and one for #passengers
11:49:05  <ZirconiumX> yes it probably would...
11:50:07  <andythenorth> Alberth: it does?
11:50:46  <ZirconiumX> [code]MYSelf.IsActuallyBothered(coffee, tea)[/code]
11:50:50  <andythenorth> if anyone cares, I might as well do refitted capacity properly, seeing as I have the code in front of me
11:50:50  <ZirconiumX> returns null
11:51:27  <FR^2> Grrr! I hate it ;) I draw a railway and a window pops up, and the rail goes across the whole continent.
11:51:37  <ZirconiumX> lol
11:51:37  <Alberth> andythenorth:    fragment, around line 570
11:52:38  * Eddi|zuHause is having a fata morgana...
11:53:47  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: glad you are aware of it :)
11:55:22  * andythenorth is baffled by the whole 'how many crates of goods in this vehicle' thing
11:55:24  <ZirconiumX> Alberth, do I go and detect where the two are, then get their position, then do AIMap::DistanceMax
11:55:32  <ZirconiumX> :Distance
11:55:38  <ZirconiumX> : Distance
11:56:18  * ZirconiumX doesn't get why you want a smiley face inside a word
11:56:24  * andythenorth thinks freight capacities will do for mail
11:56:25  <Alberth> I told you I never wrote an AI, didn't I?
11:56:25  <Alberth> I have no idea what those functions do.
11:57:05  <andythenorth> 800 PAX = 467 Mailbags = 467t coal = 467t goods
11:57:07  <Alberth> ZirconiumX: disable smiley replacements
11:57:07  <andythenorth> sound ok?
11:57:12  <ZirconiumX> meh, guesses that that is how to do it and digs
11:58:07  <Alberth> andythenorth: real-world wise not, but game-wise would be good I think
11:58:15  <andythenorth> seems simple
11:58:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why such odd numbers?
11:58:45  <Alberth> the other simple approach is 1 passenger == 1 mailbag
11:59:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there's a ratio of 1.7 in the tracking spreadsheet
11:59:10  <ZirconiumX> Alberth, that means a backlog of mail
11:59:12  <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to round them
11:59:53  <andythenorth> I like setting oddly precise freight capacities on ships intended to carry PAX in any case
12:00:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the game treats 1t of goods = 2 crates of goods
12:00:09  * ZirconiumX lols
12:00:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pikka seems to ignore that :|
12:00:29  <andythenorth> ho hum
12:00:37  <andythenorth> think HEQS respects it
12:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the dbset respects that, don't know about newships
12:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i never really use ships
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12:01:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for RVs, game also treats 2 mailbag = 1t
12:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, the game completely ignores volume
12:03:35  <ZirconiumX> I'm doing something stupid
12:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ONE thing?
12:04:03  <andythenorth> this is all a bit odd anyway, because in case of vehicle ferries, the coal / whatever would be in trucks, so there's that to consider to :P
12:04:16  <andythenorth> I think I'll ship what I've got
12:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you ship ships?
12:04:57  <andythenorth> heh
12:04:58  <andythenorth> Terkhen: would you pull fish and try it?  Got a question about info texts...
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12:07:22  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: he ships fish, although I am not sure whether fish ships fish :)
12:07:33  <andythenorth> fish does ship fish
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12:07:43  <andythenorth> I shipped a version of fish that ships fish
12:07:46  <ZirconiumX> only with ECS though
12:08:19  <ZirconiumX> Here's something strange
12:08:27  <andythenorth> there are fish in FIRS
12:08:37  <andythenorth> but no fish in FISH
12:08:44  <andythenorth> and FIRS != FISH
12:09:03  <ZirconiumX> A delivery on road is called a *ship*ment
12:09:27  <ZirconiumX> A delivery on water is *car*go
12:09:37  <ZirconiumX> :S
12:09:38  <andythenorth> but FISH is ships
12:09:52  <KenjiE20> cargo is used regardless
12:10:28  <KenjiE20> in fact so is shipment, now I think about it
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12:11:04  <ccfreak2k> If it was shipped via airplane, would it be an airment?
12:11:19  <ccfreak2k> A...planement?
12:11:47  <ZirconiumX> I honestly don't know!
12:12:15  <ccfreak2k> And what is a car but an airplane that doesn't take off?
12:12:33  <ZirconiumX> not quite
12:12:58  <ZirconiumX> car has a IC engine
12:13:06  <ZirconiumX> plane has JET engine
12:13:15  <KenjiE20> a plane can have an ic
12:13:16  <Xaroth> there are cars with jet engines
12:13:36  <ZirconiumX> Where are jets mounted
12:13:38  <ccfreak2k> Prop planes have jet engines?
12:13:40  <ZirconiumX> on a plane?
12:13:49  <ZirconiumX> the wings
12:13:52  <Brianetta> ccfreak2k: Some do.
12:13:55  <KenjiE20> on the wing, in the tail, in the body
12:13:57  <KenjiE20> pick
12:14:00  <Brianetta> Look up "turboprop"
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12:19:51  <ZirconiumX> I don't think that that worked
12:20:59  <peter1138> what one?
12:24:11  <ZirconiumX> My AI
12:24:44  <ZirconiumX> I've got the strange rectangle working, but the town method didin't work
12:30:44  <ZirconiumX> coo, It's a blizzard outside my window!
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13:01:31  <LordAro> ZirconiumX went to play in the snow :)
13:02:30  <LordAro> Yexo: in regression.txt you've got to add expected results - how can i find out what the results are?
13:02:56  <Yexo> just run the regression test, the output will be a diff between regression.txt and the real results
13:03:13  <Yexo> check that, and if it's correct apply the diff to regression.txt
13:04:46  <LordAro> ok :)
13:07:11  <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I'll not be around much today
13:07:18  <andythenorth> nvm
13:09:05  <Dante123> any ideas for station's for industrial stuff that is still missing ?
13:09:20  <Dante123> like some dropbox that will be above the train ?
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13:16:00  <Dante123> im out of ideas for a sec xD
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13:21:39  <Alberth> a water-fill place for steam locos?
13:22:14  <Alberth> also for sand & coal  :)
13:23:13  <Noldo> like in RT2?
13:24:10  <Alberth> just eye candy, no real function
13:25:31  <Dante123> aah
13:25:36  <Dante123> good idea
13:25:48  <Dante123> let me find a picture somewhere as reference to draw the sprite
13:25:56  <Dante123> if you have one let me know ;)
13:25:56  <Noldo> oh, for the miniature railroad crowd
13:26:50  <Dante123> like this ?
13:27:05  <Dante123> and this ?
13:28:31  <Alberth> I had a more wild-west theme in mind :p    but for "industrial stations" that would be fine imho, the 1st one looks best imo.
13:30:00  <Dante123> yea
13:30:06  <Dante123> ok i will give it a go ;)
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13:37:27  <wojteks86> hi all
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13:40:36  <Alberth> hi
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13:41:27  <wojteks86> need help with compiling on WinXP, VC++2010, anyone can help me, please?
13:41:42  *** ctibor|spi [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:41:47  <wojteks86> hi
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13:42:42  <LordAro> basically the same as this (probably, i don't actually know ;) )
13:43:04  <wojteks86> yes, but I get a problem with strings.h
13:43:12  <LordAro> someone with the knowledge needs to create a new page for 2010
13:43:49  <wojteks86> while trying to compile it says that strings.h is missing, but Alberth said it should be automatically created
13:45:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to compile the whole solution, not only the openttd project
13:46:17  <Alberth> projects/openttd_vs100.sln  <-- that looks like a file you should use
13:46:40  <wojteks86> I think this is what Im doing
13:46:48  <wojteks86> I have opened the whole solution
13:46:57  <Alberth> is there a strgen target?
13:48:53  <wojteks86> there is
13:49:45  <wojteks86> here is an example of the error msg:
13:49:47  <wojteks86> d:\wojtek\ottdsrc\src\statusbar_gui.cpp(30): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'table/strings.h': No such file or directory 4>  terraform_gui.cpp
13:51:25  <peter1138> you didn't compile the langs
13:51:36  * andythenorth ponders
13:51:46  <andythenorth> industry animation - smoke and such
13:51:53  <andythenorth> should it only show if industry is producing?
13:51:59  <andythenorth> like PBI
13:52:05  <andythenorth> or all the time - like default game?
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13:55:03  <Alberth> both are pretty well defendable imho
13:55:09  * andythenorth thinks all the time
13:55:50  <Alberth> it fits in 'you are not the only supplier', so I tend to agree
13:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm leaning only when supplying/producing
13:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> +towards
13:59:14  <andythenorth> the game has just one set of default sprites for industry smoke (power station) ??
13:59:18  <andythenorth> I can only find one
13:59:34  <andythenorth> 3701-3708
13:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think any other industry smokes
14:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the refinery burns, but i think that is palette animation only.
14:03:35  <Alberth> the iron-ore mine perhaps?
14:04:07  <Alberth> I remember small puffs of black smoke, but I may be mistaken
14:05:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember something similar, but i can't place it on any industry
14:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but those are probably recoloured vehicle puffs
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14:35:17  <Dante123> Alberth ?
14:35:33  * Dante123 pokes Alberth
14:36:11  <Alberth> just put whatever you want to say behind my name, this poking doesn't tell me what you want
14:36:20  <Dante123> :P
14:36:28  <Dante123> how about this as first raw drafting:
14:37:22  <Dante123> for that loco water tank
14:37:44  <Alberth> looks nice, much better than I ever could :)
14:37:53  <Dante123> hehe
14:38:03  <Dante123> i think it needs some more work though
14:38:24  <Dante123> should it be on a platform (+3) or on plain ground (+0)
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14:38:48  <Dante123> i think on ground level and with concrete ground untherneath
14:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: both?
14:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so it fits well in different stations?
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14:39:54  <Dante123> you mean like plain grass and with concrete ?
14:40:15  <Dante123> mm i think i just make it with randomizer again
14:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant with platform and without
14:40:28  <Dante123> plain grass/concrete/high platform
14:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> not randomly, the player needs to select it.
14:40:49  <Dante123> mm
14:40:59  <Dante123> but with select you get like 3 menu entries
14:41:03  <Dante123> with random 1
14:41:10  <Dante123> just multi click for other sprite
14:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, it must be able to fit into different stations. you can't get that with random
14:42:01  <Dante123> yes it can
14:42:14  <Dante123> but than you sometimes have to click the same place with the same tile multiple times
14:42:21  <Dante123> it will random pick 1 out of the 3
14:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a very bad idea
14:42:32  <Dante123> downside is the costs
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14:43:16  <Dante123> mm well, I myself play always with the improved stations GUI so more menu entries is no problem
14:43:30  <Dante123> but in default OpenTTD you get huge text lists
14:43:44  <Dante123> totally hate that, makes it look like a plate of spagetti
14:44:04  <Dante123> you probl. know what i mean :P
14:44:19  <V453000> ISR uses the random quite a lot and it is quite comfortable tbh
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14:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes, for something like drag&drop 10x8 freight station, but not for special eyecandy tiles like this
14:45:25  <Dante123> its the building GUI that really needs to be updated in trunk to handle the huge amount of newgrf station setzs
14:45:35  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: also for minor things
14:45:44  <Dante123> jup
14:45:59  <Dante123> ISR uses it for that compressor sprite too
14:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: also for making the barrel red, green or blue, but not for fitting high platform/low platform/grass
14:46:21  <V453000> what is the difference in the end
14:46:27  <Dante123> look at ISR with the tank/compressor
14:46:31  <Dante123> its random
14:46:42  <Dante123> and its totally different sprites
14:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: yes, but it doesn't relate to surrounding tiles at all
14:47:06  <V453000> yea, the list is already quite long ... would be uncomfortable if it was longer
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14:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: imho this case is different.
14:47:53  <V453000> well, that is the builders problem when he likes that he has jumpy low/high ground etc
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14:48:47  <Dante123> well i see that advantage in both case
14:49:05  <Dante123> imo the problem is with the current building gui in the trunk
14:49:19  <Dante123> its outdated relating to the wide vraiation of all negrf sets
14:49:57  <Dante123> in the end, you dont want random, but at the other hand, you dont want huge text lists either
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14:50:39  <Dante123> at my pipeline menu part im already on 14 build entries, and the plan is to get even more :/
14:51:00  <Dante123> in such case you want the improved station building gui to be in trunk
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14:53:58  <Alberth> whether or not we have an outdated gui in trunk should not decide how you make your sprites imho
14:54:26  <Dante123> true
14:54:35  <Dante123> but it makes me doubt on how to handle it :)
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14:54:59  <Alberth> I think we already have a nice newobjects gui (never seen or tried it so far though). It is a matter of time when the others follow
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14:55:02  <Dante123> so in that case i should asd you as developer: are there plans to update it in the future ?
14:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: i think it is universally recognized that the current GUI is insufficient
14:55:47  <Alberth> nobody is working on it (for as far as I know), but there are plenty of places where it would be useful
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14:56:05  <Alberth> I looked at the current patch, and it is too specialized
14:56:21  <Dante123> ahaa
14:56:43  <Dante123> mm i think should make it into diffetrent ones in that case, although it will cost 3 menu items :/
14:56:55  <Alberth> also, it should switch to the new newobject thingie probably.
14:57:14  <Dante123> mm not really imo
14:57:34  <Dante123> i see the tiles in my set for 90% as industrial terrain tiles
14:57:58  <Dante123> so all of the industrial terrain should be in the "station " category
14:58:01  <Alberth> I mean the widgets used in the newobject gui, not newobjects as in NewGRF
14:58:08  <Dante123> aaag ij
14:58:13  <Dante123> *ok
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15:01:00  <Dante123> i just code it as 3 separate ones for now
15:01:02  <Dante123> i guess :P
15:01:17  <Dante123> with the eye on the future where improved gui will be in trunk ;)
15:01:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: you could do 3 entirely different station categories (grass, low platform, high platform), and within those, basically the same eye candy tiles slightly variated
15:02:14  <Dante123> yea
15:02:35  <Dante123> mm but not in categories
15:02:46  <Dante123> just as separates station grapics
15:03:04  <Dante123> already on 5 menu category's with sub items now :/
15:03:14  <Dante123> over 250 sprites :P
15:04:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: i like the approach that ISR had. you have a few generic drag-and-drop-able stations, and a few eye candy tiles that you can sprinkle in
15:04:39  <Dante123> yea
15:04:57  <Dante123> my net is 100% compatible with ISR
15:05:04  <Dante123> all tiles fit seamless to ISR
15:05:28  <Dante123> so the player will be able to make way more good looking and variated industrial terrains
15:05:41  <V453000> :)))
15:05:44  <Dante123> i just started work on the first platforms now
15:06:11  <Dante123> so still have to figure out a lot of coding stuff how it works :P
15:06:23  <Dante123> so for i only know how to do 1x1 tiles
15:06:38  <Dante123> but in the future want to make way bigger ones too
15:06:42  <Alberth> that's one tile more than I know :)
15:06:47  <Dante123> xD
15:07:11  <Dante123> my goal should be that the player can make huge realistic terminals
15:07:20  <Dante123> like the big ones in the world
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15:07:48  <Dante123> think of rotterdam, where you get train/ship/plain/busses all in one terminal
15:08:10  <Alberth> why don't you have that goal then?  :p
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15:08:46  <Alberth> planes in Rotterdam? you mean Amsterdam
15:09:01  <__ln__> heir-plain?
15:09:02  <V453000> goal = realistic whatever is kinda bad for a game newGRF :p
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15:10:14  <Alberth> unless you make the whole game world just one terminal :)
15:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: well, 2x1 is fairly easy, just need to abuse the "left roof" and "right roof" tile layouts
15:12:14  <Alberth> yay, core dump on my first try! :D
15:15:03  <Dante123> mm
15:15:08  <Dante123> will look into that later on :p
15:15:23  <Dante123> but also want to be able to make 3x2 tiles for example
15:15:54  <Dante123> in the end, if you have the big terminals, they get build around a industry and can even be bigger than the industry itself :P
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15:22:36  <wojteks86> can someone please explain me (or just confirm) that I have installed libs and includes properly in my V C++ 2010?
15:25:35  <andythenorth> hmm
15:25:42  <andythenorth> it's the copper mine that has some smoke puffs
15:28:18  <DanMacK> Hey all
15:28:41  <wojteks86> hi
15:29:38  <andythenorth> hi DanMacK
15:30:22  <andythenorth> DanMacK if you had to choose today only one of these, which would you pick?
15:30:30  <andythenorth> (A) 35 PAX utility vessel
15:30:39  <andythenorth> (B) 60 PAX utility vessel
15:30:39  <andythenorth> ?
15:31:08  <DanMacK> Depends on what I'm servicne TBH...
15:31:40  <DanMacK> the 35pass ckmes in handy for the tiny island communities, but 60 works for the larger...
15:31:44  <DanMacK> I'd say 60 though
15:31:47  <andythenorth> well one is available in the FISH you have, and one is in the nightly build :)
15:32:38  <DanMacK> ahhh
15:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause> last time i tried FISH, i lacked small passenger ferries
15:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause> something between the utility vessel and the car ferry
15:34:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: maybe I should work on that soon
15:34:55  <andythenorth> there is a big gap for PAX
15:35:27  <andythenorth> as an easy measure, I could enable the default ferry....
15:35:41  <DanMacK> That would work
15:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried the USA map with Cargodist, and with its many rivers it would be really suited for ships
15:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think 60 is better than 35
15:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause> brb, must move router...
15:39:45  <andythenorth> ok, default ferries are back in
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16:03:54  <Wolf01> hello
16:05:24  * DanMacK waves
16:05:31  <ABCRic> hi Wolf01
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16:18:59  * Dante123 waves too
16:19:06  * Dante123 waves too
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16:29:26  <wojteks86> anybody still here?
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16:40:03  * andythenorth wonders how bounding boxes work for industries / buildings
16:41:39  <wojteks86> please somebody help me configuring my VC++ 08
16:41:50  <wojteks86> so I can compile prperly
16:41:56  <wojteks86> win XP
16:44:07  <Alberth> 08 is explained at the wiki, isn't it?
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16:46:02  <wojteks86> yes it is but I still need help with it... its not very clear (for me ) how to configure the libs and includes
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16:47:22  <andythenorth> anyone know the 'correct' way to control tile animation speed?
16:47:32  <andythenorth> I assume there's so many ticks per frame, and that's fixed?
16:47:41  <andythenorth> then I just fill frames until I get the speed I want?
16:47:54  <andythenorth> or it could just be prop 10 :P
16:47:56  <andythenorth> meh
16:51:11  <Lokimaros> I'd assume the ratio is somewhere in a variable.
16:52:38  <andythenorth> its industry tile prop 10
16:55:33  <wojteks86> I'll pop in laterz
16:55:35  <wojteks86> bye for now
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17:03:14  <Yexo> andythenorth: nml has this table in it's documentation about the animation speed properties:
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17:26:36  <andythenorth> how handy
17:26:56  <andythenorth> thanks
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17:32:13  * andythenorth does worrying things to avoid industry smoke being cropped
17:32:42  <andythenorth> does anyone other than mb understand tile bounding boxes? :(
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17:37:02  <Dante123> a bit
17:37:16  <Dante123> they are important for station tiles
17:37:38  <Dante123> trough bounding box it is defined what is in back/middle/front
17:40:54  <Hirundo> andythenorth: what is your problem?
17:41:19  <andythenorth> probably easiest to explain in pictures & code
17:41:37  <andythenorth> basically I quite often need (want?) to use graphics that run outside of the tile
17:43:03  <andythenorth> e.g. the smoke here
17:43:03  <andythenorth>
17:43:46  <andythenorth> to prevent the smoke from being cropped I set quite a large zofs and yextent
17:43:50  <andythenorth> these are probably bad
17:43:56  <andythenorth> nforenum doesn't much like them
17:44:04  <andythenorth>
17:44:24  <Wolf01> nice industry
17:44:40  <andythenorth> however I can't see any flickering / disappearing sprites, which is the normal sign of problems
17:45:07  <andythenorth> oh
17:45:08  <andythenorth> I can
17:45:27  <andythenorth> yes, there is a problem :(
17:45:34  <andythenorth> but I can't see how else to place smoke
17:45:44  <andythenorth> except for comping it into the sprite sheet
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17:53:27  <Hirundo> basically, everything works as long as you don't cross tile borders
17:54:13  <andythenorth> gah
17:54:21  <andythenorth> I think I might have some redrawing to do :(
17:56:08  <andythenorth> or I live with the cropping for now
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17:59:17  <andythenorth> hmm
18:00:30  <andythenorth> ach that'll do
18:04:57  <Yexo> someone said not so long ago (I think it was frosch) that bounding boxes should never have been exposed to newgrfs, that they just should've been hardcoded to the tile sizes
18:05:15  <Yexo> ctrl+b will show you the bounding boxes in openttd
18:06:36  <Ammler> and make bounding boxes depend on the sprites size or how would you do that?
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18:07:53  <andythenorth> Yexo: frosch is probably right
18:08:19  <Yexo> Ammler: no need for that, just fix the bounding boxes to the size of a tile
18:08:27  <andythenorth> every time I try to adjust a bounding box I get either (a) sad nforenum, (b) flickering sprites (c) both :|
18:08:44  <Ammler> Yexo: but the high matters for the sorting, doesn't?
18:08:58  *** Guest2445 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:09:08  <Yexo> yes, but the height can be calculated quite easily from the sprite height + offset
18:09:24  <Ammler> yeah, what I meant
18:09:39  * andythenorth adventures some more in smoke
18:09:47  <andythenorth> I suspect I'm going to break some more stuff
18:09:53  <Ammler> so why are those in the newgrf? :-P
18:10:16  <Yexo> you can ask that about a lot of stuff in newgrfs
18:10:29  <Ammler> well, I just know the base set bounding boxes were quite stupid too
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18:11:02  <Ammler> opengfx quite much ignores those
18:21:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21648 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: unduplicate a bit of code
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18:42:18  <andythenorth> hmm
18:42:33  <andythenorth> most of the cement plant chimneys I can find pictures of aren't smoking
18:43:28  <andythenorth> this one not so much:
18:43:37  <andythenorth> I have been inside that cement plant ^
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18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21649 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 34 changes by Hirundo, Hyronymus
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 2 changes by Christopher
18:45:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: malay - 12 changes by rionix88
18:45:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: marathi - 100 changes by jaguarnac
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19:03:04  * andythenorth ponders double smoke
19:04:36  * Wolf01 ponders holy smoke
19:07:46  <andythenorth> ha
19:07:50  <andythenorth> double smoke rocks :D
19:08:56  <Wolf01> holy smoke rocks too :D
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19:33:10  <Dante123> Eddi ?
19:41:17  <andythenorth> making animated rotating cement kilns is boring :P
19:45:11  <Dante123> xD
19:45:29  <Dante123> i already have cement soli's drawn btw
19:45:38  <Dante123> maybe u can use them too ;)
19:45:47  <Dante123> saves some work for you
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20:01:04  <Dante123> too bad Alberth is gone :P
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20:07:38  <andythenorth> could the game be taught to build new objects at map gen time?
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20:08:48  <Dante123> seems not really wanted
20:09:09  <Dante123> than the game should also be thought what NO to build and what NO not to build
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20:13:22  <Zuu> There could be meta-NewGrfs that suggest which object collections that should be used.
20:13:37  <andythenorth> that could be in the newobject grf
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20:14:02  <andythenorth> it 'just' needs some rules for placement
20:14:11  <andythenorth> and a way of telling game this object is buildable
20:14:28  <andythenorth> basically industries have all the properties / cbs needed already
20:14:35  <andythenorth> cb28 / 22 would do most of it
20:15:02  <andythenorth> industry prop 17 / 18 provide probability
20:15:32  <andythenorth> there would need to be a var to indicate whether it was game / player / scenario editor trying to build
20:17:26  <andythenorth> ach
20:17:28  <andythenorth> back to smoking
20:18:14  <Dante123> i can think of some newobjects you dont want random placed :P
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20:21:43  <andythenorth> so the newgrf prevents those being built by the game
20:21:48  <andythenorth> trivial
20:21:50  <andythenorth> :P
20:21:57  <Dante123> mm
20:22:23  <Dante123> but you always have coding newbies like me that dont know what stuff does but copy/paste a working one :p
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20:23:22  <andythenorth> ach
20:23:25  <Dante123> wasn't NO a way to get rid of your money extends anyway xD
20:36:15  <Wolf01> uhmm, autorenew failed for train xy (undefined string), what could be a cause which made it to fail? I have enough money and the new train can be built in the depot
20:41:08  <Wolf01> oh, can't add any coach to that engine
20:47:47  <Zuu> Dante123: Try demolishing water :-)
20:53:16  <Dante123> Zuu what you mean >?
20:53:54  <Dante123> to get rid of money ?
20:53:57  <Zuu> I intreprete "<Dante123> wasn't NO a way to get rid of your money extends anyway xD" that you want to get rid of your money
20:54:15  <Dante123> thats where NO comes to play
20:54:33  <Dante123> have that really expensive shizzle for your company office :P
20:54:42  <Zuu> :-)
20:55:01  <Dante123> than you can show it off in your screenshots :P
20:55:08  <Zuu> Oh yea, will be great in multiplayer :-)
20:55:11  <Dante123> demolishing water you cant showoff ;)
20:56:03  <Dante123> :D finnaly have my watertowers done for steam engines :D
20:56:30  <Dante123> feedback is welcome here:
20:57:16  <Zuu> Oh, and certainly *some* AI developer will ask for a way to make AIs build new objects.
20:57:37  <Dante123> jup
20:57:45  <Zuu> and how to make at least not stupid selections of new objects.
20:57:49  <Dante123> ooh i still have the mst pwning idea in my head for newobjects :P
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20:58:59  <Zuu> maybe new objects could have tags or an alt description that AIs can use to filter for objects they are interested in?
20:59:40  <Dante123> why not something as a bit like "AI can build this object"  like 15 00 (no) and 15 FF (yes)
21:00:07  <Dante123> for example, the AI doesnt understand how to build a fence
21:00:19  <Dante123> but should be able to build random 1x1 tiles
21:00:39  <Dante123> but should somehow know where to build and where not
21:01:10  <blangstrup-31027> I'm reading about ppl using a for Mac OSX, but can't really find a download on the webpage?
21:02:08  <Zuu> They should be sure to not choose to download stable.
21:02:56  <blangstrup-31027> uh .. the beta
21:03:04  <blangstrup-31027> thanks
21:03:15  <Zuu> Only "testing" and "nightly" links on will allow selecting macosx in the list of operating systems.
21:03:15  * blangstrup-31027 will now sleep tomight ;)
21:03:23  <blangstrup-31027> *not
21:03:45  <Zuu> hehe
21:03:49  <blangstrup-31027> Zuu: yea ... but how come? Is it a rather new thing the Max OSX support?
21:04:08  <andythenorth> blangstrup-31027: the OS X port maintainer left
21:04:12  <andythenorth> so OS X support was dropped
21:04:17  <andythenorth> but it has been restored
21:04:17  <ABCRic> support for OSX was resumed only recently
21:04:20  <Zuu> MacOSX was support was dropped in 1.0.x
21:04:25  <blangstrup-31027> oh ..
21:04:29  <blangstrup-31027> that's sad
21:04:54  <blangstrup-31027> "resumed recently" <- good enough for me .. hopes are high
21:04:59  <Rubidium> for what it's worth it's not even certain Mac OS X support will happen for 1.1.0
21:05:00  <Zuu> but as ABCRic and andythenorth said above, it has resumed again.
21:05:44  <blangstrup-31027> getting mixed signals here ... I really hope it will remain.
21:05:57  *** DDR [~DDR@] has joined #openttd
21:06:00  <Zuu> blangstrup-31027: If you experience any problems, please report them on with crash reports etc.
21:06:09  <blangstrup-31027> will do
21:06:21  <andythenorth> blangstrup-31027: you can compile ottd yourself
21:06:23  <andythenorth> for OS X
21:06:27  <Zuu> That will help fixing MacXSX problems.
21:06:27  <andythenorth> I have been doing that for a while
21:06:41  <blangstrup-31027> andythenorth: is there a guide for dummies?
21:06:44  <andythenorth> yes
21:06:53  <blangstrup-31027> excellent
21:06:59  <andythenorth>
21:07:07  <blangstrup-31027> sweet
21:07:09  <andythenorth> you don't currently need to
21:07:15  *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:07:22  <andythenorth> but it's useful to know
21:07:42  <blangstrup-31027> ok .. so if it's unsupported for Mac in 1.1.0 I'll compile it myself?
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21:08:35  * blangstrup-31027 powers off VirtualBox w. Win7
21:08:48  * Dante123 lols
21:08:51  <blangstrup-31027> what a relief
21:09:06  <ABCRic> VirtualBox FTW
21:09:21  <blangstrup-31027> yea it's actually ok
21:09:32  <blangstrup-31027> but native is more FTW
21:09:49  * Dante123 pops open a bottle of pizza
21:09:50  <ABCRic> Meh, too much work :P
21:09:57  * Dante123 ment pisa
21:10:08  <blangstrup-31027> bottled pizza?
21:10:09  <blangstrup-31027> :D
21:10:25  <blangstrup-31027> w. vodka?
21:10:28  <Dante123>
21:10:52  <Dante123> it tastes like marcepin
21:10:59  <Dante123> it was untherneath the christmas three
21:11:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21650 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#4339]: make "centre [main] view" consistent, and make "[main|global] view" consistent
21:11:27  <Dante123> it tastes not like pizza
21:11:29  <Dante123> damn
21:11:30  <blangstrup-31027> Dante123: not bad
21:11:30  <Dante123> xD
21:11:36  <ABCRic> hmm... remind me (before I burn something), does OpenTTD compiled for win32 work with 64bit windows?
21:11:50  <Dante123> yes
21:12:04  <ABCRic> thanks :D
21:12:04  <Dante123> any 32 prog will work when running a 64 OS
21:12:24  <Dante123> the other way around does not work :P
21:13:04  * andythenorth is pleased with industry animation
21:13:10  <andythenorth> brings the thing alive a bit
21:13:39  * Dante123 wonders where the preview is
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21:16:49  <Rubidium> Dante123: that's a generalisation that definitely won't work
21:17:37  * Dante123 wonders what
21:17:48  <Terkhen> hello
21:17:53  <Rubidium> that all 32bits programs work on a 64bits OS
21:18:02  <Dante123> ah
21:18:18  <Dante123> all 32 bitr programs work on a 64 win OS
21:18:19  <Zuu> also that a 64bit system can run 32 bit programs
21:18:22  <Dante123> you mean that ?
21:18:28  <Terkhen> heh
21:18:47  <Dante123> win 7 for example has 2 "program files" folders
21:18:48  * Rubidium actually argues that not all 32 bits Windows applications can run on all 64 bits Windows
21:18:53  <Terkhen> a windows program we had to work with, broke the OS when used with 64 bits windows
21:18:59  <Dante123> 1 for 32 bit and 1 for 64 bit progs
21:19:43  <Dante123> some self-programmed progs may have some issues on 64 bit though
21:20:35  <Dante123> im almost 1 year on wn 7, 64 bit now, and so far i must say everything runs perfect :)
21:20:36  <Zuu> well in order to make 64bit programs, it helps to actually have a 64 bit environment to test the programs in.
21:20:39  *** ABCRic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:21:10  <Zuu> Unfortunately many 64bit systems comes with 32 bit windows.
21:21:27  <glx> less true now with win7
21:21:52  <glx> as even the upgrade version contains 32bit and 64bit
21:21:59  <Dante123> once you put a 32 OS on it, all is running as 32 xD
21:22:01  <Terkhen> yes, my laptop came with vista 32 and it has 4 GB of ram
21:22:14  <Zuu> dito mine :-)
21:22:16  <Dante123> at home i have 64 bit with 8 GB ram
21:22:27  <Dante123> at work i have a 16 core with 12 gb ram :P
21:22:38  <glx> 4GB on 32bit windows is waste :)
21:22:51  <glx> except for server versions
21:22:58  <Terkhen> indeed
21:23:01  <Dante123> but at work i have to make renderings and such stuff :P
21:23:14  <Terkhen> I did not notice the problem until a few weeks have passed
21:23:15  <Zuu> or when you hack windows to use the rest of the memory that some guy on the internet did.
21:23:38  <Terkhen> I was so naive that I just found it impossible to believe they would pack an OS that cannot handle all of your RAM
21:24:03  <glx> they also sell 1GB pc with vista :)
21:24:08  <Zuu> I was aware of it when i bought it so it wasn't that I was dissapointed by it.
21:24:30  <Rubidium> Dante123: arguably my Windows NT 3.51 DEC 32 bits binary won't work on my Windows 2008 64 bits Itanium computer
21:24:37  <Dante123> mm well if you by a pre-installed pc, a 32 bit sys should have max 4 gb
21:24:55  <Dante123> 3 gb for handling processes and 1 gb for the sys itself
21:25:01  <glx> Dante123: win32 non server sees only 3GB
21:25:07  <Dante123> 32^2
21:25:57  <Dante123> uu i ment
21:26:04  <Dante123> 2 ^ 32
21:26:20  <Dante123> so you have 4294967296 bites
21:26:23  <Dante123> with 32 bit
21:26:31  <Dante123> so hat is about 4 GB ram
21:26:49  <glx> but win32 non server will still see only 3GB :)
21:26:54  <Dante123> but win needs 1 gb for itself
21:26:59  <Dante123> and 3 gb for processes
21:27:08  <Wolf01> it's not so easy, Dante123
21:27:09  <Dante123> zo a 32 bit sys can use up to 4 GB ram
21:27:18  <Dante123> it is for windows :)
21:27:20  <Terkhen> I'm pretty sure the OS was using ram from those 3 GB
21:27:26  <Dante123> its 2 ^32 what it can use
21:27:31  <Terkhen> otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to update
21:27:32  <glx> a 32bit system can use more than 4GB
21:27:35  <Wolf01> 32bit can't address the memory oveer 3GB, without some hacks
21:27:50  <Dante123> with win 32 bit, dont gorget to add in your boot the /3GB
21:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> with PAE, every process can access 4GB
21:28:26  <glx> PAE is disabled for win32 non server :)
21:28:32  <glx> hence the 3GB limitation :)
21:28:32  <Dante123> aah what the hack, i have 64 bit anyway so i dotn even have to think about that stuff :P
21:28:34  <Eddi|zuHause> these 4GB may be anywhere within the 64bit address space
21:28:46  <Terkhen> I remember reading that the 3GB limitation was artificial, yes
21:29:23  <Terkhen> which caused me yet another windows annoyance
21:29:31  <Dante123> in win it is default to 2 GB but in the boot menu file you can add the 3GB line to make it use up to 3
21:29:42  <Dante123> plus 1 for system (makes 4 gb)
21:30:06  <Dante123> aah well, win is still better than that linux crap :P
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21:30:32  <Dante123> yes i know linux is more stabile, but has waáááy more downsides
21:30:34  <glx> 32bit linux just use the memory you have without any limitation
21:30:43  <Terkhen> yes, it is better in being crappier
21:30:54  <Terkhen> whatever
21:31:07  <Dante123> :P
21:31:19  <ABCRic> aaand I'm back from my system freeze. Did I miss anything?
21:31:19  <Rubidium> Dante123: yes, one of it's major downsides is not being able to properly run many Windows applications
21:31:23  <Terkhen> the day my games work on linux or any other open OS I'll burn my copies of windows
21:31:45  <glx> Terkhen: wine ?
21:31:58  <Zuu> yea I remember reading about a guy that had hacked the windows 32 bit kernel to use more than 3 GB ram. Though it only worked in fail safe mode and under several limitations.
21:32:01  <Terkhen> sadly it is not powerful enough for new games
21:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> wine can handle a great deal of my games
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21:33:06  <Terkhen> I wonder if ReactOS will be what I'm waiting for
21:33:14  * Rubidium hasn't really missed Windows for games for years now
21:34:35  <Terkhen> I also want to get a more powerful computer to try wine again, but money has been scarce
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22:33:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21651 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix [FS#4338] (r21229): infinite loop in the road pathfinder due to bouncing around in an "one way" trap; two one ways pointing towards eachother making it impossible to leave
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23:47:55  <Terkhen> good night
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