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00:03:04 <dihedral> good night 00:10:57 *** nicfer1 [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:27 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 00:14:47 *** George is now known as Guest746 00:14:51 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 00:18:40 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08f84d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:18 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:20:23 *** Guest746 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:23:13 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AF89.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:54 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:28 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:38:20 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-76-217.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:49:14 *** supermop [~daniel_er@82-69-99-113.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 01:05:15 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has joined #openttd 01:05:33 *** JOHN-SHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-72-104.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:07:49 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.8.108.23] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 01:18:49 *** lewymati [~lewymati@dynamic-78-8-131-183.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [] 01:22:48 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:32:05 <bb10> Rubidium: about this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=785179&sid=8751325a581cdaf221276e0cba050e83#p785179 01:33:29 <bb10> the license doesn't allow you (as a user) to decompile/reverse engineer etc whatever is on steam, but who in his right mind would reverse engineer something that is open source? xD 01:33:47 <bb10> also, there are several open source games on steam. 01:35:05 <bb10> Aquaria, Arx Fatalis and probably some others that I don't know about 01:36:04 <bb10> Penumbra Overture and Gish too 01:36:13 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3D75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:36:45 <SmatZ> does steam modify those games? 01:36:53 <SmatZ> also, opensource != GPL'd 01:37:04 <Yexo> arx fatalis is gpl, but only since 14 jan 2011 01:37:11 <bb10> steam does not compile those games 01:37:44 <SmatZ> there may be a problem, that if they modify the source, they also have to publish those modifications done 01:37:48 <Yexo> aquaria's source was released as gpl on june 3, 2010 01:37:54 <bb10> they do not modify it 01:38:01 <Yexo> while it was uploaded to steam at december 15, 2008 01:38:06 <Yexo> all dates according to wikipedia 01:38:06 <bb10> they get binaries and upload them. 01:38:16 <bb10> Yexo: correct 01:38:21 <SmatZ> both games I played (portal and trackmania nations) looked modified 01:38:29 <SmatZ> because they were interacting with steam 01:38:34 <bb10> portal is a Valve game 01:39:03 <Yexo> bb10: even if you "just" distribute the binaries, you still have to comply to the licence 01:39:18 <bb10> the license is for users 01:39:24 <Yexo> in fact I don't think you're allowed to distribute the binaries without distributing the source also (or a written offer for the source) 01:39:32 <Yexo> no, the license is for everyone 01:40:04 <SmatZ> simply, the licence of "openttd distributed over steam" has to be GPL-compatible, which excludes "can not modify the code" 01:40:34 <bb10> it's a binary 01:40:47 <SmatZ> licensed under GPL 01:41:09 <Yexo> steam is only allowed to distribute the openttd binary if they either A) also distribute the source or B) provide a written offer for the source code 01:41:09 <bb10> Yexo: what? 01:41:26 <bb10> Yexo: they don't get the source code 01:41:39 <bb10> they get binaries and upload them 01:42:01 <Yexo> they're not allowed to upload openttd binaries without also providing the source or a written offer for the source 01:42:12 <bb10> you can add the source code if you want in a separate folder 01:42:41 <Yexo> if someone (steam included) wants to distribute openttd, they have to comply to the GPL 01:42:42 <SmatZ> bb10: the primary problem is that if steam's EULA says "you can not modify anything downloaded via steam", it violates OpenTTD's license, and so it can't be distributed over steam 01:43:01 <Yexo> which means you can't put additional restrictions on it (like: "you're not allowed to modify / reverse engineere it") 01:43:10 <bb10> though, the real question is, will they allow this free game on steam 01:43:40 <Yexo> no, the question is will they modify their subscriber agreement for it (answer almost for certain: no) 01:45:29 <bb10> "without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve." <- they could put that on the store page 01:46:52 <SmatZ> http://vcs.openttd.org/git/?p=openttd/trunk.git;a=blob;f=COPYING openttd's licence 01:48:20 <Yexo> could be, but I'm not sure if that's legally a valid construction 01:49:11 <Yexo> you could argue they'd still put a restriction on it: "you're not allowed to modify it without our permission, which you get here" sounds like they could revoke that permission at any time 01:49:30 <SmatZ> well, at least here, if the license isn't in the czech language, it's void 01:49:45 <SmatZ> (so it uses some "default" license given by law) 01:50:01 <Yexo> how does that work for gpl software? 01:50:10 <SmatZ> I wonder :) 01:50:14 <Yexo> not in czech -> no valid licence -> no right to use the software? 01:50:20 <SmatZ> there is official czech translation of GPL somewhere 01:50:32 <SmatZ> but hardly anything is distributed with translated version of GPL 01:50:38 <Yexo> sure, but that translation is not delivered with the product 01:50:55 <SmatZ> yeah... 01:55:56 <bb10> Yexo: http://store.steampowered.com/news/4081/ 01:56:22 <bb10> "In addition to the game, Valve will also release the complete code base for Alien Swarm." 01:56:50 <bb10> They released an open source game themselves. :P 01:56:54 <SmatZ> bb10: under what license? 01:57:16 <bb10> no sure 01:57:19 <bb10> not* 01:57:43 <SmatZ> well, the copyright owner can still provide closed-source binary for steam and GPL'd version for download 01:58:04 <SmatZ> so it will work with steam's license 01:58:46 <bb10> and that is not possible with Openttd? 01:59:15 <SmatZ> ianal 01:59:22 <Yexo> no, because there are a lot of people who own part of the copyright, and we won't be able to find them all to ask for permission to distribute a closed-source binary via steam 01:59:56 <bb10> aren't all binaries closed source? 02:00:30 <Yexo> ok, change that to "to ask permission to distribute a non-gpl licensed binary via steam" 02:00:54 <bb10> a binary can be licensed under gpl? 02:01:12 <SmatZ> software is licensed under GPL 02:01:17 <Yexo> why not? you'll just have to also provide the source code 02:02:13 <bb10> the source code is already provided :P 02:02:41 <Yexo> the one distributing the binary has to provide the source too (or a written offer to provide the source) 02:03:37 <bb10> would a link to the source on the store page be good? 02:03:50 <Yexo> probably 02:04:03 <Yexo> note however that providing the source isn't really the issue why openttd is not on steam 02:04:11 <Yexo> steams user agreement is a far bigger problem 02:04:32 <SmatZ> bb10: you, as the steam's subscriber, have agreed to NOT COPY and NOT MODIFY the software you downloaded via steam, which is NOT COMPATIBLE with OpenTTD's license, so OpenTTD CAN NOT be distributed via steam 02:04:58 <SmatZ> what you don't understand there? 02:05:16 <bb10> you forgot the end of the sentence 02:05:30 <bb10> "without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve." <- they could put that on the store page 02:05:52 <Yexo> that would imply that they have a right to revoke that consent, which they don't 02:05:59 <bb10> You can copy, modify etc this bla bla 02:06:02 <Yexo> but IANAL 02:06:11 <bb10> me neither :P 02:06:46 <SmatZ> "without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve." <== unless it means you have to ask for a written permission :) 02:07:41 <Yexo> bb10: it's basically the same problem as all mobile phone app stores have with gpl products 02:07:45 <bb10> Not if the consent is already (in writing) on the store page. 02:07:58 <Yexo> just google for "app store gpl" or anything like it and you'll find plenty of explanations 02:09:11 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFC31A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:09:15 <Yexo> http://www.fsf.org/news/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement <- basically read this 02:12:42 *** HalfBit [~hb@201-27-198-181.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:07 <bb10> hmm yes 02:13:16 <bb10> but they do not have the consent thing 02:13:28 <bb10> and they only allow you to download it on 5 devices 02:18:15 <SmatZ> Yexo: nice link :) 02:18:56 <Yexo> I remember last week someone posted a link with a comparison also of other phone stores, but I can't find it anymore 02:37:23 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:04:07 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-111-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 03:10:35 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-163-198.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:22:00 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:54 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 04:04:46 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFF2CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:07:37 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 04:22:47 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6c21:cf3d:90c:be63] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:18:54 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-76-217.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 05:50:55 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has joined #openttd 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7791D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7790A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:57:11 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11:32 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:04:16 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 07:04:21 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 07:13:03 <Terkhen> good morning 07:13:08 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06ec12.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:14:20 <Terkhen> bb10: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=895831#p895831 07:27:00 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:30:05 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 07:33:06 <Terkhen> I don't see the point anyways 07:33:21 <Terkhen> they get no benefit and neither do us 07:33:33 <Terkhen> as you can always add openttd to steam as an external game 07:36:57 *** lasershock [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 07:38:22 *** lasershock [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 07:41:52 <Rubidium> really... how hard is the steam subscribed agreement to read. Only "you may not .... create derivative works based on ... any software accessed via Steam without prior consent of Valve" tells me enough. If accessed via Steam you're not allowed to modify it, GPL says you must not be disallowed to modify it. Clashing licenses -> OpenTTD isn't getting on Steam 07:42:20 <Rubidium> and yes... you can change the license for Steam, but that isn't going to happen 07:44:44 <peter1138> heh 07:48:18 <planetmaker> moin 07:50:22 <planetmaker> he... steam... is nothing else than hot water and air ;-) 07:53:28 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:58:36 <Terkhen> :) 08:07:33 <dihedral> good morning 08:17:04 <dihedral> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4426 <- can this be done easily? 08:17:44 <dihedral> a little switch somewhere to simply mute / unmute sound on that event would probably be useful - yet i am not sure how simple it could be 08:18:37 <Rubidium> dihedral: as easily as 4420 08:20:44 *** George is now known as Guest782 08:20:48 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 08:25:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21847 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4423]: slowing down of trains was done by reducing the speed by 10%, but also when you're just 1% too fast, so limit the slowdown till the new maximum speed 08:25:57 *** Guest782 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:42:30 <dihedral> is there nothing event like that could get executed when the window is minimized? 08:51:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ACEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:57:07 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: such an event could easily be added, i'm sure 08:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> he... steam... is nothing else than hot water and air ;-) <-- well, you also need some crystalisation core, otherwise steam would be invisible 08:59:03 <planetmaker> no 08:59:30 <planetmaker> you only need that for condensation. Steam is by definition the gas phase of water. No crystallization cores needed 09:00:14 <planetmaker> it might also be visible due to the different fractive index of the hat water vapour 09:00:21 <planetmaker> *diffractive 09:00:39 <planetmaker> like where hot air is rising from a heater you see that, too 09:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know what you mean ;) 09:02:45 <planetmaker> :-) 09:13:04 <dihedral> what if the air has the same temperature as the water? 09:13:11 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:15:18 <planetmaker> it would not change a thing 09:15:37 <planetmaker> it'd still be steam ;-) 09:16:26 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:18:41 <dihedral> Rubidium, are those enough patches for you :-) 09:19:03 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:19:44 <andythenorth> bonjour 09:22:29 <dihedral> hello 09:26:38 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:32:59 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i still wonder how the opengfx people managed to make their maglev track look even more ugly than the original 09:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an almost impossible task... 09:38:47 <peter1138> hehe 09:40:12 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:42:33 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:55:11 <Terkhen> heh, yet another power plant discussion 09:55:18 <andythenorth> meh 09:55:44 <Terkhen> and it's following the usual pattern :) 09:55:47 <andythenorth> heh 09:55:58 * andythenorth introduces some truly *horrible* clipping problems into FISH 09:56:13 <Terkhen> even bigger ships? 09:56:31 <andythenorth> slightly bigger than the current biggest 09:56:35 <peter1138> tea clipper? 09:56:46 <andythenorth> hah 09:59:14 * andythenorth works on BabyTypes 09:59:23 <andythenorth> but not yet on NewBabyTypes 10:00:56 <Terkhen> are you thinking on improvements to the original BabyTypes spec? 10:01:32 <andythenorth> there are possible improvements, but the implementation would be baroque 10:01:34 <andythenorth> tmwftlb 10:01:39 <Terkhen> :D 10:01:40 <andythenorth> might as well stick with the current spec 10:01:50 <andythenorth> it's the best available in the circumstances :P 10:01:54 <Terkhen> :) 10:02:17 <andythenorth> if we wanted to improve BabyTypes, it would be best to start from scratch 10:02:25 <andythenorth> some of the legacy details are unhelpful 10:03:11 <andythenorth> Terkhen: rv-wagons? 10:03:42 <Terkhen> hmm... yes, I should do some work on that 10:03:49 <andythenorth> did we make a repo? 10:03:51 <andythenorth> let me see 10:04:00 <Terkhen> no, but I'm not sure a repo is needed for now 10:04:11 <Terkhen> we should start by unifying stuff between vehicle types 10:04:22 <andythenorth> did we finish the spec? 10:04:32 <Terkhen> I made a note to start with articulated part handling 10:04:55 <Terkhen> we decided what parts of the train spec we would need, but IIRC nothing was written 10:04:59 <andythenorth> I have an irc transcript, but no document 10:06:07 <Terkhen> I was bored, so it is a good moment to start looking at the Artic functions to see how they can be unified 10:06:39 <andythenorth> hmm 10:06:42 <andythenorth> the baby just woke up 10:06:51 <andythenorth> I'll see if I can copy our transcript into a document today 10:06:57 <Terkhen> okay :) 10:10:32 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5BD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:11:05 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-76-217.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:11:32 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has joined #openttd 10:15:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.186.29] has joined #openttd 10:21:22 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.161.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:23:30 <andythenorth> Terkhen: spec is not very advanced :P 10:23:31 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/iUwgtj79 10:23:56 <Terkhen> heh 10:24:03 <Terkhen> yes, we will need something more clear :) 10:26:03 <andythenorth> a table of cbs and varaction 2s? 10:26:10 <andythenorth> showing which are implemented and which are needed? 10:26:31 <Terkhen> that would be good, yes :) 10:26:43 <andythenorth> I can start on that 10:26:49 <andythenorth> I'll just make a text file 10:26:57 <andythenorth> unless you're happy editing html? 10:27:04 <andythenorth> I hate wiki formatting so I'm not doing it there :P 10:27:21 <Terkhen> IIRC we needed some kind of action0 flag, right? 10:27:25 <Terkhen> a text file is fine for now 10:27:35 <andythenorth> we did need a flag 10:27:45 <andythenorth> it was to allow some behaviour if set IIRC 10:27:56 <andythenorth> was it to explicitly allow attachment? 10:28:10 <andythenorth> it was to enable cb 1D 10:28:18 <Terkhen> well... the problem was the default behaviour 10:28:19 <andythenorth> which would be ignored if not enabled 10:28:28 <andythenorth> IIRC, the thinking was 10:28:33 <Terkhen> by default, road vehicles shouldn't attach or let any other vehicles attach to them 10:28:40 <andythenorth> yup 10:28:46 <andythenorth> then action 0 enables CB1D 10:28:57 <andythenorth> CB1D default return value is 'allow attach' 10:29:10 <andythenorth> unless player chooses to handle it explicitly 10:29:17 * andythenorth wonders if that's possible :o 10:29:33 <Terkhen> hmm? allowing the player to attach anything? 10:29:44 <andythenorth> yup 10:29:56 <Terkhen> I don't think it's desirable 10:30:02 <andythenorth> it would be very irritating to a newgrf author to have to explicitly handle 1D for every vehicle 10:30:10 <andythenorth> trains don't have this issue :( 10:30:22 <andythenorth> default=attachable makes sense for trains 10:30:25 <andythenorth> no legacy problems there 10:30:50 <andythenorth> hmm 10:31:06 <andythenorth> let me write a spec 10:31:10 <andythenorth> it will make more sense 10:33:11 *** 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11:24:16 <andythenorth> weird two-way flow arrangement possible :P 11:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> crazy idea: a "subway" roadtype where you can set vehicles travelling on it to not collide with vehicles not running on it 11:26:27 <peter1138> (everything i look up says "use nonblocking i/o" which isn't really the same thing) 11:26:53 <peter1138> hmm 11:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (collide as in get blocked by) 11:28:15 <peter1138> ((okay, apparently you have to check yourself)) 11:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (imagine "subway" as in "underground tram". same non-blockyness could be used for overhead-monorail) 11:30:05 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 11:35:13 <andythenorth> only collide with vehicles of same roadtype? 11:42:58 <SpComb> peter1138: what connect()? 11:43:18 <SpComb> peter1138: the connect() syscall doesn't have a timeout, you need to do a non-blocking connect() and then select() on it with your timeout 11:43:37 <SpComb> peter1138: after that you can go back to blocking I/O 11:44:15 <peter1138> well, not quite that simple 11:44:33 <peter1138> because that assumes you're doing nothing else in that time period :) 11:44:59 <peter1138> i have just set up a timer and which closes the connection 11:47:04 *** Eggman891 [~Eggman891@cpc7-staf7-2-0-cust542.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:52:42 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:51 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 11:55:18 <SpComb> well, that assumes that you're using threads.. 11:55:32 <SpComb> event loops have their own timeout mechanisms 12:01:43 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.55.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:59 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7790A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:02 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B7790A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:35:58 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:38:37 <peter1138> bleh, threads :p 12:53:23 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 12:54:53 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:07:54 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 13:17:22 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:19:26 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:21:12 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:24:54 *** DayDreamer [~pouzara@80.95.101.194] has joined #openttd 13:26:06 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:fc80:f1af:c953:4957] has joined #openttd 13:26:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:38:33 *** JOHN-SHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-72-104.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 13:42:33 <dihedral> glx, i am jealous 13:45:13 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has joined #openttd 13:48:25 <dihedral> i want a public ipv6 address too :-P 13:50:04 <FauxFaux> sixxs. 13:50:40 * bb10 pets FauxFaux 13:54:41 <dihedral> i said i want a public ip not a proxy :-) 14:02:02 <glx> dihedral: my ISP uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_rapid_deployment 14:02:57 *** supermop [~daniel_er@vitsoe.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:05:06 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF85AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 14:06:00 <Belugas> hello 14:06:16 <supermop> hi 14:11:01 *** z-MaTRiX_nonidentified [~matrix@coming.soon.it] has quit [Quit: bb] 14:12:42 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@coming.soon.it] has joined #openttd 14:12:45 <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho 14:36:40 *** supermop [~daniel_er@vitsoe.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Quit: supermop] 14:48:20 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.11.14.158] has joined #openttd 14:58:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host49-239-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 14:59:28 <Wolf01> hello 15:04:43 *** DayDreamer [~pouzara@80.95.101.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:11:19 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 15:18:06 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:19 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 15:35:27 <ZirconiumX> hello 15:35:42 <ZirconiumX> #periodfive returns 15:40:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ACEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:55 <ZirconiumX> @logs 15:44:55 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd 15:58:14 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 16:00:19 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 16:06:07 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:15:16 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 16:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> we really don't need to know when your period comes... 16:18:17 <ZirconiumX> It's a joke referring to Prof_Frink's comment yesterday 16:19:11 <planetmaker> yeah, his comments usually are quite on-topic 16:19:23 <planetmaker> just as yours :-P 16:22:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21848 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: unification of comment style for cargopacket.* 16:25:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21849 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: move merging/splitting of cargopackets into a helper function (fonsinchen) 16:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> go on there. you're on the right track. :p 16:28:33 <Rubidium> you mean break cargodist patchability even more? 16:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. up to the point where there's nothing left to break :p 16:30:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21850 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network.h network_client.cpp network_client.h): -Codechange: move password hashing to a more general location (dihedral) 16:30:49 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: nah, too much things need to be fixed/tested for that to happen 16:30:58 <Rubidium> like loads of coding style 16:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> aww 16:31:38 <Rubidium> and documentation stuff 16:32:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21851 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network_client.cpp network_client.h): -Codechange: rename NetworkClientSetPassword to NetworkClientSetCompanyPassword (dihedral) 16:33:14 <Rubidium> got some 34K of diffdiff with coding style hints/changes/things that aren't clear 16:35:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21852 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network.h network_client.cpp): -Codechange: generalise GenerateCompanyPasswordHash (dihedral) 16:36:40 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 16:36:54 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:37:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21853 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files): -Codechange: HashCurrentCompanyPassword is only used by servers, so move it to network_server.* (dihedral) 16:40:37 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 16:42:23 <Rubidium> dihedral: 05 fails to compile without 06 16:45:12 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.19.223] has joined #openttd 16:46:52 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:52:43 *** DJNekkid [~DJ___Nekk@static128-249.mimer.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 16:53:49 <dihedral> oh :-( i am sorry about that 16:54:13 <Rubidium> email's slow today 16:54:14 <dihedral> 05 should have worked, i thought, as 06 was merely the implementation in comsole_cmds 16:54:37 <Rubidium> but in 05 you change the signature of a function used in console_cmds.cpp 16:54:58 <dihedral> oh crap 16:55:02 <dihedral> sorry about that 16:55:57 <dihedral> and thanks for the commits :-) 16:56:48 <dihedral> anything i can do for beta5? :-P 16:57:10 <Rubidium> fix any of the bugs at bugs.openttd.org? 17:01:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21854 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: refactor the password setting methods to make it possible to change the password of other companies (on the server) 17:02:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21855 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Feature [FS#4368]: [Network] Console command to change the password of other companies for servers (dihedral) 17:03:20 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06ec12.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 17:05:37 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:28 *** nicfer1 [~nicfer@190.50.17.46] has joined #openttd 17:10:16 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.19.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:11:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21856 /trunk/ (findversion.sh projects/determineversion.vbs): -Fix (r21840): Don't fail tag detection on hg repositories that use mercurial queues. Add some safety against tags and branches with spaces as well. 17:11:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21857 /trunk/ (findversion.sh projects/determineversion.vbs): -Add: Revision detection for hgsubversion repositories. 17:13:16 * planetmaker wonders whether it now seems quite opportune to install hgsubversion locally ;-) 17:14:52 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5BD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 17:15:39 <Terkhen> how does it work? 17:16:18 <Terkhen> can you do anything with mercurial over a subversion repository? 17:19:01 <planetmaker> I'll have to find out :-) 17:20:24 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:20:25 <planetmaker> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/HgSubversion 17:22:41 <planetmaker> and http://mercurial.aragost.com/kick-start/en/hgsubversion/ possibly also 17:23:12 * Terkhen reads 17:23:19 <Terkhen> thanks for the links :) 17:23:32 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:23:32 <planetmaker> well, had them open just at the moment :-) 17:28:42 <Terkhen> for me the only advantage seems to be easier and faster committing 17:28:52 <Terkhen> and that can lead to mistakes 17:29:31 <planetmaker> I agree. 17:29:55 <andythenorth> hmm 17:30:04 <planetmaker> one other might be that you can pull the svn tags and build them (now) with the proper version info / string. Possibly 17:30:16 <andythenorth> what a lot of bits are free for water tiles :o 17:30:22 <andythenorth> how interesting... 17:30:41 <planetmaker> shooo shooo! back to road types you goooo ;-) 17:31:10 <planetmaker> (I know, very bad rhyme ;-) ) 17:31:34 <andythenorth> was wondering if watertypes would be a better way to do pipelines 17:31:50 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-124.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:32:08 <andythenorth> was thinking about vehicle behaviour, not about liquids per se ;) 17:32:33 <planetmaker> vehicle: small | medium | big oil blob 17:32:46 <planetmaker> crash behaviour: oil spill 17:32:55 <planetmaker> so it needs also new disasters... ;-) 17:34:32 <andythenorth> hmm 17:35:07 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-5f7231d1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:37:11 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ACEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:39:01 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f68f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:39:51 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:44:49 *** WargH [51ea85b5@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:56:09 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 17:57:36 * DanMacK waves 17:57:54 <SmatZ> evning 17:58:16 <Rubidium> hmm, you must be very high if I can see you wave ;) 18:00:19 * ZirconiumX tsunamis 18:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> stupid cat. this is MY chair. 18:01:03 <ZirconiumX> ...while Eddi|zuHause curses his cat. 18:01:39 <Terkhen> from his point of view it is probably his chair 18:02:36 <ZirconiumX> get another chair, with casters on - so you can push the cat out of the rooom 18:02:50 <Rubidium> Terkhen: no, it's his/her Throne 18:02:59 <Terkhen> :D 18:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> from her point of view, it's probably a flat area that's slightly more elevated and slightly more soft than the others. both of which are benefiting factors for using it. 18:03:55 <andythenorth> cats are just cussed 18:03:58 <ZirconiumX> Cats need a hill to survey the area - we already have one - it's called our legs 18:04:02 <andythenorth> she's doing it to beat you 18:04:31 <Terkhen> cats just like to take whatever they think you might need 18:04:56 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. typically the space directly in front of your feet. 18:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or your food. 18:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> or your sitting/sleeping places 18:05:50 <andythenorth> meh 18:05:50 <andythenorth> power lines / pipelines :P 18:05:58 * andythenorth proposed unitised cargo packet transport 18:06:16 <andythenorth> e.g. routes that have shift n units p tiles per second 18:06:21 <andythenorth> have - 18:06:28 <andythenorth> and don't need vehicles 18:06:36 <Terkhen> as long as your cats don't learn to steal your laundry... mine did 18:07:05 <Rubidium> you taught it wrong... the cat shall do your laundry 18:07:47 <Terkhen> I don't think that's even remotely possible :P 18:07:47 <ZirconiumX> I once saw a cat that did a poo inside (strike one 18:08:04 <planetmaker> I fear it'd lead to "the cat oversees you doing her laundry", Rubidium ;-) 18:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> oh. cats love to oversee stuff. 18:09:13 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 18:09:20 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@245.126.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 18:09:28 <andythenorth> open pipeline tycoon! 18:09:36 <andythenorth> deluxe 18:09:40 <andythenorth> OPTD! 18:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and every step you do, like put up new furniture, gets thoroughly inspected 18:10:35 <andythenorth> open pipeline, powerline, ski-lift, ropeway, cable car, travelator and conveyor belt tycoon! 18:10:51 <Terkhen> :D 18:11:07 <Rubidium> otldr ? 18:11:28 <andythenorth> I am 35% serious :P 18:11:28 <andythenorth> ? 18:12:00 <ZirconiumX> andythenorth: nope OPPSLRCCTCBT 18:12:03 <Rubidium> "open too long didn't read" 18:12:09 <Rubidium> or 18:12:16 <Rubidium> "open too long don't remember" 18:12:35 <Rubidium> like the digits of pi; too long, don't remember 18:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> 3,1415926535898tldr? 18:13:09 <andythenorth> is there any map space for a new transportation type? 18:13:41 <Terkhen> are you planning a vehicleless transportation type? 18:13:46 <planetmaker> it needs a new tile type and could be done, I guess 18:13:46 <andythenorth> I'm not sure 18:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think there are unused tile types, but the trouble starts when crossing with existing types 18:14:06 <andythenorth> I think it actually might need vehicles (for player and/or implementation sanity) 18:14:10 <ZirconiumX> open absolutely nothing tycoon OANT 18:14:13 <andythenorth> but all vehicles on a line are connected together 18:14:17 <planetmaker> powerlines are known to never cross streets and rails. 18:14:18 <andythenorth> and they have to have the same orders 18:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> or bridges/tunnels, which should reuse the existing tiles 18:14:37 <andythenorth> and they all hold 1t 18:15:01 <andythenorth> or 1pax etc 18:15:13 <Rubidium> 1t of electrons sounds like quite a lot 18:15:22 <andythenorth> hmm 18:15:23 <planetmaker> uh... 18:15:25 <andythenorth> 1 electron 18:15:27 <planetmaker> quite 18:15:45 <andythenorth> 1 photon 18:15:45 <planetmaker> sounds like a significant fraction of all atoms in the universe ;-) 18:15:59 <andythenorth> 1 quantum packet 18:16:03 <DanMacK> Possibly carry megawatts instead? 18:16:11 <andythenorth> each vehicle is a quantum packet :P 18:16:32 <ZirconiumX> 24t of batteries 18:16:32 <planetmaker> look at it and it decays... 18:16:34 <andythenorth> if you entangle two of them, then check the cargo amount on one of them, the other instantly unloads :P 18:16:38 <planetmaker> and you never know where it is... 18:16:45 <andythenorth> no you do, but not quite 18:16:53 <andythenorth> and the cat dies :P 18:16:56 <ZirconiumX> Invisible cargo - 24tonnes of something 18:16:58 <planetmaker> and if you know where it is, you don't know how fast and where it travels... it's a total mess ;-) 18:17:13 * andythenorth is worried now about the cat? 18:18:32 *** Phoenix_the_II [ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:38 *** Phoenix_the_II [ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 18:18:40 <Rubidium> oh, only roughly 10^33 electrons 18:19:13 <planetmaker> if you take the square of it, it's probably larger than the number of atoms in the universe ;-) 18:19:35 <planetmaker> (or my memory is faulty) 18:19:53 <andythenorth> yeah but is the cat ok? 18:19:58 <andythenorth> someone measure the cat :P 18:20:36 <Rubidium> planetmaker: wolfram says 10^80 18:20:37 <planetmaker> did you ever try that on one? It might be hard ;-) 18:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but only a small amount of electrons in the hull are actually free 18:20:54 <planetmaker> well, then be it 10^80. I recalled 10^52 ;-) 18:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not even 30 orders of magnitude... who cares :p 18:21:47 * andythenorth wonders if this idea might actually be possible :P 18:21:54 <andythenorth> dumb as it is 18:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause> a separate pipe/power/otherwise continuous transport type? 18:22:44 <andythenorth> yes 18:22:49 <planetmaker> @calc (13*10**9 * 10**16)**3 18:22:49 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2196999999999999946875349976678663849588536635279061293249460890373123263692800 18:22:56 <planetmaker> hm... not a handy number :-P 18:22:59 <andythenorth> that could also support things like bucket ways 18:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> conveyor belt 18:23:04 <andythenorth> and conveyors 18:23:09 <nicfer1> hmmm, maps bigger than 1024x1024 are unjoinable for my internet connection 18:23:21 <andythenorth> I can think of some problems :O 18:23:39 <nicfer1> 1mbit/s down 18:24:19 <andythenorth> for continuous transport, simply using vehicles seems to take care of actually moving the cargo 18:24:32 <andythenorth> but they'd need to all take the same orders 18:24:41 <andythenorth> and it's a non-intuitive way to add capacity 18:24:42 <planetmaker> 10**52 is too low. ^ above number gives 10**78 - and the average density of the universe is higher than the inter-galactic gas which is 1 atom / m**3 18:24:49 <andythenorth> and removing them to destroy the route would be odd 18:24:56 <andythenorth> they'd all have to go to depot :P 18:25:09 <__ln__> Inter-Galactic Tycoon Deluxe 18:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i don't have this song... 18:26:39 <andythenorth> limiting the route would be quite easy: make it impossible to build junctions 18:27:17 <andythenorth> but how many stations are possible is an interesting question 18:27:36 <andythenorth> per route 18:28:07 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1ada.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:29:19 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: have fun with http://rbijker.net/openttd/cd.diff (found --ignore-space-at-eol in git diff) 18:30:17 <fonsinchen> :) 18:30:17 <Xaroth_> a diff on a diff? 18:30:24 <fonsinchen> looks indeed funny. 18:31:26 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@245.126.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:33:53 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@86.129.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 18:42:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21858 /trunk/src/ (articulated_vehicles.cpp train.h vehicle.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Give more similar names to ArticulatedPart functions. 18:43:08 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:43:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21859 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp train.h): -Codechange: Move train subtype flags to GroundVehicle. 18:44:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21860 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Rename road vehicle subtype functions to match the train names. 18:44:37 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: bbiab] 18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21861 /trunk/src/lang/ (japanese.txt spanish.txt ukrainian.txt): 18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: japanese - 92 changes by kokubunzi 18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 52 changes by Terkhen 18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 2 changes by Fixer 18:47:10 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:57:19 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:57:22 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 19:08:02 <ZirconiumX> hello Alberth 19:08:19 <Alberth> hi ZirconiumX 19:10:04 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:12:20 *** supermop [~daniel_er@82-69-99-113.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:15:12 <dihedral> oi 19:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> http://i.imgur.com/HVHlD.jpg 19:16:25 <dihedral> HAHA 19:16:27 <dihedral> awsome 19:16:42 <bb10> LOL 19:17:28 <dihedral> vcs.openttd.org <- 504 Gateway Time-out 19:18:08 <Xaroth_> no issue here 19:18:55 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:19:01 <andythenorth> is it done yet :P 19:19:24 * andythenorth starts filing annual tax return 19:19:25 <andythenorth> what larks 19:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the food was delicious, yes. 19:20:04 <andythenorth> I'm still worried about the cat 19:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there's more where that came from :p 19:24:41 <Hirundo> fonsinchen: I noticed something (bug?) in cargodist 19:25:04 <jonty-comp> CONUNDRUM TIME 19:25:09 <Hirundo> When multiple vehicles are loading, the loading indicator jumps to 100% instantly 19:25:16 <jonty-comp> I set up a 1.0.5 server on a development server at work 19:25:38 <jonty-comp> but the external firewall doesn't let it through 19:26:07 <jonty-comp> for some reason tunneling localhost:2979 to remote localhost:3979 works in ubuntu on my laptop, but not in windows 19:26:46 <jonty-comp> *3979 19:27:01 <jonty-comp> as in doing ssh jonty@dev1.ext.blah -L 3979:localhost:3979 works fine when I do openttd -n localhost 19:27:08 <jonty-comp> but doesn't when I do it through putty 19:28:48 <fonsinchen> Hirundo: That's expected, the vehicle will still take the usual time to load the cargo 19:29:03 <fonsinchen> The 100% indicate that all the cargo has been reserved for that vehicle 19:29:11 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:30:11 <Hirundo> Isn't it more useful to show the actual cargo count instead of the reserved amount? 19:32:31 <fonsinchen> If I'd show the actual amount then someone would complain that the cargo disappears from the station before the vehicle loads it. 19:33:59 <planetmaker> eh? 19:34:07 <fonsinchen> The reservations work differently in cargodist. If cargo is reserved for a vehicle it's actually removed from the station and stored in a temporary cache at the vehicle 19:34:14 <planetmaker> Why is loading changed to default loading behaviour? 19:34:19 <planetmaker> where it also gradually loads? 19:34:35 <fonsinchen> This saves a lot of CPU time as we don't have to recheck all the packets in each loading cycle 19:34:50 <Hirundo> So there are three lists: station, vehicle and a temporary cache in-between? 19:34:57 <fonsinchen> Yes 19:35:22 <planetmaker> wouldn't it make sense to just add a 'reserved' indicator to the packets at the station? 19:35:27 <fonsinchen> Also it's much more accurate like this as the planned/sent numbers are immediately updated when moving the packets to the cache 19:35:44 <fonsinchen> Then I'd still have to loop over them every turn 19:35:51 <planetmaker> how does that deal with a skip-order command? 19:35:54 <Hirundo> But stuff also has to work when CD is disabled, right? 19:36:16 <fonsinchen> It moves the packets in the reservation cache back if the vehicle leaves the station 19:36:24 <planetmaker> also it 'feels' buggy to basically make the loading indicators deprieved of their function 19:36:35 <fonsinchen> Everything works the same except for the loading indicators 19:36:47 <planetmaker> well. But they're rendered un-functional 19:37:08 <planetmaker> which many people will (IMHO correctly) complain about 19:37:10 <fonsinchen> I can change that. You'll have to live with cargo disappearing before being loaded then, though. 19:37:39 <planetmaker> and how is it handled, if I send the train away before it is completely loaded? 19:37:47 <fonsinchen> The packets are moved back 19:37:52 <fonsinchen> to the station 19:37:52 <planetmaker> hm 19:38:07 <planetmaker> so it has an impact on station rating as well 19:38:16 <fonsinchen> how? 19:38:23 <planetmaker> as the rating with cargodist will be 'better' as cargo is moved earlier 19:38:28 <planetmaker> thus the average cargo waiting is lower 19:39:10 <fonsinchen> yes, that's probably the case. 19:39:32 <planetmaker> and what is the actual performance impact of this change? 19:39:43 <planetmaker> in PU on test games? 19:39:46 <planetmaker> *CPU 19:39:59 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:40:21 <Hirundo> Can't you store the reserved cargo somewhere in the station, so it still counted there? 19:40:40 <fonsinchen> I don't know anymore. But that was one of the changes with most impact on performance. 19:40:47 <Alberth> or continue searching where you stopped the last time? 19:41:05 <planetmaker> ^ good idea :-) 19:41:22 <Alberth> may be less trivial than it sounds :) 19:41:32 <fonsinchen> Hirundo: Then I'd have to keep a map of vehicle to cargo and that would need to be looked up and iterated over. 19:41:35 <fonsinchen> I have tried that. 19:42:18 <Alberth> you can move the cargo, and just add some count of 'cached elsewhere' at the station 19:42:26 <fonsinchen> Don't forget that the question if a packet is to be loaded into some vehicle may be answered a different way in subsequent loading turns 19:42:28 <planetmaker> fonsinchen: what about just adding the vehID to the station cargo packets? 19:42:37 <fonsinchen> depending on the sent/planned numbers 19:43:04 <fonsinchen> One of the worst performance problems was the constant looping over lots of cargo packets 19:43:19 <Alberth> you currently also dont consider changing destinations between loading turns 19:44:42 <fonsinchen> Alberth: This can only happen if you manually change the orders. I assume that this will happen sufficiently rarely. 19:45:44 <Hirundo> Even if that does happen, you can always redo the reservations if it's really needed 19:46:47 <fonsinchen> I cannot guarantee that the cargo really arrives at the place where it wants to go. You could as well skip an order while the vehicle is already on its way. So I don't consider manual changes at all. 19:46:58 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 19:47:01 * Zuu seriously question the need for OTTDAU to be adapted to allow selection of 64-bit OpenTTD. It's not like OpenTTD will be limited by the 2 GB mem limit? 19:48:06 <Zuu> So until OTTDAU become available in 64 bit, I don't really see the point of doing any re-working to support 64bit downloads. 19:48:07 <Hirundo> Stations already have a list of loading vehicles, perhaps it's possible to maintain a list of reservation lists in the same way 19:48:27 <fonsinchen> I can extend the loading indicators to show two numbers in case something is reserved for the vehicle 19:48:28 <Hirundo> So the cargo is still accessible by the station and can be counted there 19:49:14 <Hirundo> tbh, as player Joe I don't care about reservations and whatnot 19:49:19 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:49:48 <Hirundo> as a side note, player Joe doesn't understand all advanced settings either 19:51:39 <planetmaker> Player Joe rather understands very few settings only ;-) 19:52:29 <fonsinchen> btw, Station::days_since_pickup is not updated until the cargo is really loaded 19:52:47 <fonsinchen> so the argument about station ratings is probably wrong. 19:53:29 <planetmaker> station rating depends on the amount waiting, too 19:53:38 <planetmaker> and that was my argument 19:54:15 <planetmaker> not any pickup time :-) 19:54:17 <fonsinchen> With cargodist you have more cargo waiting at most stations most of the time 19:54:32 <fonsinchen> so I think we can accept it to be a little forgiving there. 19:55:03 <planetmaker> yes, probably. I'm rather worried about the perceived GUI bug with the wrong loading indicators. 19:56:18 <planetmaker> Personally I quite like to see them change as they give me an indication on how busy the station is, whether I need more / less trains 19:56:18 <fonsinchen> As I said I can just show both numbers. Joe average won't have that many reservations anyway. 19:56:50 <planetmaker> another interface, numbers will be confusing. Just make them work with cargodist the same way :-) 19:56:51 <Hirundo> That'd be a misfeature IMO 19:57:25 <planetmaker> I mean... don't you move the cargo into the train the same way, be it from the station or cache? 19:57:36 <planetmaker> So... can't then the train load state be used the same way? 19:58:17 <fonsinchen> Of course I can show the "real" loading number, if you want that. 19:58:29 <planetmaker> that's what it does now. So yes, of course 19:58:38 <fonsinchen> But that means the loading indicator is not in sync with the station GUI anymore 19:58:56 <planetmaker> it's a loading indicator for the train. Not the station 19:59:12 <fonsinchen> Well, then... I'll do it like that. 20:00:01 <Hirundo> Is it possible to combine the station itself and the reservation lists into one list in the station GUI, to show the 'good' number there also? 20:00:40 <planetmaker> gui_cargo = station_cargo + temp_cargo_cache? 20:01:17 <fonsinchen> I don't want to search all the reservation lists when assembling the source-via-destination view in the station gui 20:01:35 <fonsinchen> It would be horribly complicated. 20:04:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21862 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unify subtype handling between road vehicles and trains. 20:05:08 * DanMacK has tried Cargodist, but never can transport the passengers for instance 20:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: there's a passenger reduction patch 20:05:27 <Hirundo> fonsinchen: Mind if I post some 'average Joe observations' to the forum topic? 20:05:47 <DanMacK> or they want to go to some out of the way village services by buses... 20:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: what if you show the "about to load" cargo in a different list? 20:06:41 <ar3k> hm 20:06:49 <ar3k> somethings wrong with 21861 build 20:06:55 <ar3k> tranis load over 100% 20:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: although i don't really see what's the problem 20:07:08 <fonsinchen> Hirundo: go ahead 20:07:39 <fonsinchen> Eddi|zuHause: where should I show that? In the station GUI somewhere? 20:08:05 <ar3k> 300 tons of coal in 30t wagon 20:08:07 <ar3k> rotfl 20:09:02 * ABCRic wonders off to compile before that issue is fixed 20:09:08 <ABCRic> *wanders 20:09:19 <fonsinchen> DanMacK: Passengers will try to go to all reachable destinations, the amounts depend on the sizes of the villages and towns and on the distances between them. 20:09:36 <fonsinchen> The amounts don't depend on the quality of your service. 20:10:30 <Wolf01> WTF? vehicles loading 158% and 163% o_o 20:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: maybe it needs some feedback? cargo that is routed through congested links reduce the generation of new cargo for their destination? 20:11:22 <ar3k> yeah 20:11:25 <ar3k> Wolf01 ^^ 20:13:20 <fonsinchen> Eddi|zuHause: I have avoided that on purpose as cargodist should give you the extra challenge to get the cargo where it wants to go. 20:13:20 <Wolf01> 141 passengers in a 50 passengers coach :o 20:13:51 <Wolf01> looks like the Milano-Bologna route 20:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that sounds perfectly realistic :p 20:14:29 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF85AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:14:39 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5BD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe Rubidium made som mistaks merging fonsinchens code? 20:15:39 <Wolf01> my steel trains don't think so :P 20:15:53 <Wolf01> they can barely move :o 20:17:53 * DanMacK may have to play with a recent build to try again 20:20:30 <fonsinchen> 21857 doesn't have the problem 20:20:40 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@coming.soon.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:58 <fonsinchen> Or at least I don't see it 20:21:06 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-17-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:24:05 <Wolf01> I'm using r21861 20:24:24 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-76-217.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:24:28 <Wolf01> maybe it's related to grfs 20:24:36 <Wolf01> or with the cargo multiplier 20:24:40 <Wolf01> I use 5x 20:24:44 <dihedral> ouch 20:25:54 <DanMacK> 5X is nothing... 20:26:03 * DanMacK has played with 20 on occasion 20:26:08 <DanMacK> not recently though 20:26:18 <dihedral> exactly, not recently ;-) 20:30:42 <Wolf01> with 5x I need to use 2-3 engines to move a 10 tiles long steel train 20:31:14 <ar3k> i dont use anything like that 20:31:17 <ar3k> and still 20:31:26 <ar3k> on some trains i get over 300 ton of coal 20:31:37 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@coming.soon.it] has joined #openttd 20:31:54 <Wolf01> 1750 tonnes of steel on a train 20:32:15 *** z-MaTRiX is now known as Guest850 20:34:04 <ar3k> where i can find this cargo multiplier ? 20:34:06 <fonsinchen> Eddi|zuHause: btw, the generation of cargo is actually reduced if a lot of cargo is waiting. With the "external ratings" the ratings of the source stations drop then and reduce cargo generation. 20:34:53 <ar3k> Wolf01 :> 20:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: i haven't tried in a while. i was just making theoretical thoughts 20:35:57 <fonsinchen> It works quite well. I have done quite a few experiments with different ways to reduce the cargo piling and like this it's quite nice. 20:36:35 <Wolf01> ar3k: vehicles->trains->weight multiplier 20:36:59 <ar3k> k 20:37:01 <ar3k> thanks 20:39:07 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: is happens in r21857 as well 20:39:57 <fonsinchen> Interesting ... not with cargodist though. 20:40:08 <ABCRic> cargo loading - 0%, 48%, 58%, 238% 20:40:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21863 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix (r21849): load the amount that should be loaded instead of the amount that should not be loaded 20:41:39 <Xaroth_> heh 20:41:40 <Xaroth_> overloaded! 20:42:08 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: probably because you completely ditched that function 20:43:30 <dihedral> hehehe 20:44:17 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086237.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:45:42 <fonsinchen> Well, that function was probably not very well tested ... :/ 20:49:25 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:07 <dihedral> i may not laugh - i had a bad patch too :-P 21:07:06 <fonsinchen> The loading indicators show the "real" amount now. 21:13:29 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f68f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:24 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-111-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 21:28:29 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:28:53 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:31:39 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-111-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 21:31:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 21:32:28 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@86.129.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:24 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:35:17 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1ada.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:10 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:51:14 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Quit: âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ 3.2 (July '10)] 21:59:01 <andythenorth> good night 21:59:08 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 22:01:27 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF85AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 22:03:14 <Pulec> who is czech here? 22:03:27 <Pulec> btw is there a list of recommended settings? 22:03:37 <Pulec> i mean i always turn on realistic train physics 22:03:38 <Wolf01> all on 22:03:43 <Pulec> lol 22:03:53 <Pulec> and i mainly mean generating map 22:04:00 <Pulec> the default seems just too much cities and industry 22:04:12 <planetmaker> yes. it's recommended to use those which give a map which you like 22:04:18 <Pulec> on a bigger mapper with less players many are being closed, but thats not the case 22:04:22 <Pulec> its the difficulty 22:04:52 <Pulec> i think its better to build less train routes and organize them properly 22:04:59 <Pulec> over time it gets supper complex 22:05:07 <Terkhen> good night 22:05:07 <Pulec> and i dont really like goal servers 22:05:16 <Pulec> gn european man 22:06:15 <planetmaker> Pulec: new industries will also open again, so don't bother with them closing. 22:06:25 <planetmaker> those who you service well, won't close. 22:06:39 <Pulec> i know that 22:06:43 <planetmaker> (unless you play with newgrfs, then it might happen, depending upon them and their parameters) 22:07:15 <Pulec> but that was only on huges maps, like 2kx1k and two players 22:07:31 <Pulec> i dont use newgrf much 22:07:37 <Pulec> but i could use some recommended list 22:07:38 <planetmaker> just play around with the map settings. I use terragenesis, low towns, mountains and high variability 22:07:40 <planetmaker> medium water 22:07:44 <planetmaker> but that's me. 22:07:57 <Pulec> i like mountains 22:07:59 <planetmaker> But... I need to go to bed, too, so good night here, too :-) 22:08:00 <Pulec> its much nicer then 22:08:10 <Pulec> good nood night european man 22:34:58 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF85AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:37:13 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 23:20:49 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 23:30:49 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-5f7231d1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:30 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086237.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:55:01 *** SpBot [spbot@skrblz.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd 23:55:53 *** __ln__ [~lauri@ssh.ksenos.fi] has joined #openttd 23:57:14 *** WargH [51ea85b5@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 23:58:27 *** murr4y [~murray@122.84-48-65.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd