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[~tokai@port-92-195-191-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... furry-heating-cushion-that-makes-miau 04:17:31 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B76BC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:17:31 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76BC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:16 <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> hey-ho 04:39:35 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B76BC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:02 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B76BC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:13:15 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.96.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13:24 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.96.65] has joined #openttd 05:13:28 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.96.65] has quit [] 05:20:41 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:23 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 05:24:01 *** roboboy 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[Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:23:11 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-230-172.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:51 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:31:35 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:35:48 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d0352e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:44:59 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d0352e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:45:46 <Terkhen> good morning 07:52:03 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:02:21 *** FauxFaux [faux@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:06:32 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d0352e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:09:37 <planetmaker> moin 08:13:33 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 08:13:53 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:20:53 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 08:21:32 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 08:21:44 *** Guest1555 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 08:22:26 *** Guest1555 is now known as norbert79 08:22:31 <norbert79> Good morning 08:25:40 *** FauxFaux [~faux@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 08:27:17 *** bartavelle [~bartavell@bigbox.banquise.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:36 *** Chrill [Chrill@ip68-8-120-178.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #openttd 08:45:21 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B064.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:46:53 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has joined #openttd 08:56:22 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:17:04 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d0352e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:28:21 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 09:38:09 *** perk11 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left #openttd [] 12:18:53 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:24:37 *** KouDy [~koudy@118.100.112.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:28:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@118.100.112.42] has joined #openttd 12:40:28 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d0352e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:55:47 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 12:57:55 *** Scuddles [~notme@cm104.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 13:04:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 13:04:05 <Wolf01> hello 13:05:54 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f11f:2d7f:d2c8:e794] has joined #openttd 13:05:57 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:32:53 *** Wolf03 [~wolf01@host78-160-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 13:32:53 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest1575 13:32:54 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 13:32:54 *** Guest1575 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:20 *** Chruker [~no@87-104-39-161-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk] has joined #openttd 13:41:41 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 13:43:53 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:00:52 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:38 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:03:04 <Belugas> hello 14:16:02 <Wolf01> hello Belugas 14:38:50 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 14:51:40 *** maddy_ [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has joined #openttd 14:52:25 <maddy_> hi guys 15:09:06 *** HalfBit [~hb@201-43-242-125.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #openttd 15:12:33 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:28:11 <HalfBit> How exactly is train length and speed calculated when they are in diagonal tracks? 15:28:37 <HalfBit> I'm trying to figure out, but it doesn't seem to follow the Pythagorean theorem 15:30:20 <Rubidium> take a look at TrainLocoHandler; don't know the stuff by heart, but there's definitely no square (root) involved in the calculations 15:31:41 <peter1138> badly :) 15:31:52 <peter1138> in fact the train slows down 15:32:19 <Wolf01> but they are longer 15:32:27 <HalfBit> Yeah... It seems that happens 15:32:51 <HalfBit> they stay in the same "speed", yet, they slow down in reality 15:33:01 <HalfBit> weird 15:34:42 <peter1138> yeah 15:35:09 <planetmaker> fix it ;-) 15:35:12 <peter1138> in fact the graphics (original graphics, anyway) are set up for the wagons to be placed closer together 15:35:44 <peter1138> wolf is correct, the train gets longer, rather than slowing down 15:36:03 <peter1138> if the wagons were correctly positioned it wouldn't get longer 15:36:25 <peter1138> of course it would totally mess up new graphics :p 15:37:22 <HalfBit> That totally explains why my trains were not summing up correctly in my game 15:39:06 <peter1138> hmm, i guess both are correct 15:39:17 <peter1138> if it gets longer while moving then the back end must be slowing down :) 15:40:48 <Rubidium> welcome to the world of time dilation fields ;) 15:41:17 <peter1138> there's a 3/4 factor in there as well mind you 15:41:18 <peter1138> hmm :p 15:42:06 <peter1138> probably should be sqrt(2)/2 15:42:13 <peter1138> 1/sqrt(2) ? 15:42:19 <peter1138> 0.7071 anyway 15:43:21 <HalfBit> This: http://i.imgur.com/1Nfp8.png 15:43:56 <HalfBit> Same speed, they are aligned until one train turns 15:43:58 <peter1138> yeah, that's the usual way of seeing it :) 15:44:10 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8ACA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:44:18 <peter1138> you should try that with the default graphics 15:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> 1/sqrt(2) and sqrt(2)/2 are the same thing 15:44:34 <HalfBit> Then they keep the same speed, but the train that runs gets behind the train that goes straight 15:44:37 <peter1138> you'll see that that the original lengths have big spaces, which could've been used tof ix the problem 15:44:44 <peter1138> but the newgrf went along and removed the spaces 15:44:53 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes, but one of them is the correct way of getting there ;) 15:46:11 <peter1138> i don't remember if opengfx uses original sizes or newgrf sizes 15:46:48 <HalfBit> by default graphics, you mean, the DOS/Windows TTD? 15:47:11 <peter1138> i mean graphics from ttd 15:47:14 <peter1138> yeah 15:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never used opengfx 15:47:53 <HalfBit> No good, I don't have them 15:48:05 <peter1138> hmm, yeah, opengfx uses a mix 15:48:32 <peter1138> longer lengths in general 15:48:57 <peter1138> but on the intro screen the monorail wagons are shorter vertically 15:50:44 <planetmaker> OpenGFX has fixed graphics for all rail wagons. But the maintainer is a bit short on time currently :-P 15:50:56 <Ammler> HalfBit: this is a unresolveable bug, as the waggons "grow" in the horizontal view, so the waggons in the diagonal view got slower 15:51:12 <peter1138> planetmaker, fixed in what way? 15:51:17 <peter1138> made shorter? 15:51:20 *** blathijs [matthijs@drsnuggles.stderr.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:33 <peter1138> Ammler, it's fixable, but you'll get glitches with newgrfs 15:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the problem is newgrfs expanded the wagons to 32px from 28px. 15:51:59 <Ammler> peter1138: fixeable with remaking every waggon graphic 15:52:12 <planetmaker> peter1138, I have wagon graphics with 28px length for all rail vehicles 15:52:16 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the "bug" is not just with newgrfs 15:52:21 <HalfBit> Ammler: not a problem :-) 15:52:24 <peter1138> Ammler, it is 15:52:27 <planetmaker> DanMacK did an excellent job on that recently 15:52:31 <peter1138> well, ish 15:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: not the "bug", but the "blocker" for the "solution" 15:52:49 <peter1138> i think dbsetxl would probably work okay ;) 15:52:51 <Ammler> we reported that on FS, the ticket got rejected because remaking every graphic would be too much work 15:52:57 <planetmaker> With those new sprites OpenGFX wagon lengths will be like the TTD sprites. 15:53:17 *** blathijs [matthijs@drsnuggles.stderr.nl] has joined #openttd 15:53:29 <peter1138> well would fix it allow the glitches to happen 15:53:39 <peter1138> revert all the 32px depot code :D 15:53:48 <planetmaker> :-D 15:53:50 <HalfBit> For context I'm trying to make two trains that leave one station at the same time to join a single line without blocking, making with a curve, and I was wondering why my calculations were going so wrong 15:54:22 <peter1138> wtf 15:54:24 <HalfBit> It is probably some problem that the people in coop already had 15:54:27 <Ammler> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1063 15:54:27 <peter1138> well we could fix it and allow the glitches to happen 15:55:01 <Ammler> HalfBit: sometimes we doubled the lines before a direction change 15:55:13 <Ammler> like double bridge 15:55:22 <peter1138> eh, rubidium's comment is a bit 15:55:23 <peter1138> wrong 15:55:33 <peter1138> because the original graphics *were* designed shorter already 15:56:16 <Ammler> peter1138: I guess, the problem might be that it might be impossible to find right length and speed to make it similar in horizontal and diagonal 15:56:38 <peter1138> Ammler, no, it's simple mathmatics 15:56:56 <Ammler> yes, but maybe it would need "half pixels" :-) 15:57:02 <peter1138> as i said, 0.7071 15:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it's fairly simple to round half-pixels, but being 4 pixels off is more of a problem. 15:57:39 <peter1138> 0.7071067811865475244008443621048490392848 being a bit more ... precise ... 15:57:58 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, in such newgrfs, the issue is just more verbose :-) 15:58:01 <V453000> just leave the bug alone and play with it as it is :P 15:58:52 <V453000> there still is a maximum throughput, you just have to count with the curves :) 15:59:07 <peter1138> you'd probably want to add a sub-"unit" for x & y coordinates 15:59:23 <peter1138> 1/16th of a tile atm, iirc 15:59:40 <peter1138> maybe 1/256th of that is precise enough :p 15:59:53 <peter1138> btw 16:00:05 <peter1138> i probably had a patch for that at some point :P 16:00:20 <HalfBit> heh 16:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a 16x16 grid on a tile, a vehicle is 8 grid-positions (1 down, 2 left), diagonal grid-positions are 1.4 times wider (4 left), so you need 8/1.4 = 5.6 grid positions, which translates to around 22px 16:01:53 <Ammler> planetmaker: at least that is now a good reason, why the opengfx waggons should have same length as ttd 16:02:15 <V453000> Ammler: they dont? :O 16:02:31 <HalfBit> But... if cars become shorter on diagonals, that would mess with signal placement, right? 16:02:41 <Ammler> they had 32px, but some are already shorter 16:02:57 <Ammler> but the reason was just the depot view yet 16:02:58 <V453000> HalfBit: yes 16:03:07 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, positions are stored in map coordinates, not pixel coordinates 16:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes 16:03:51 <HalfBit> Really, a difficult problem... 16:04:10 <peter1138> i'm not sure where you get 1.4 from in that context 16:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.4 ~ sqrt(2) 16:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was obvious ;) 16:04:44 <peter1138> that's a big error :p 16:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: if you have to round to whole grid positions, it's probably negligible ;) 16:06:47 <peter1138> that's why i'm saying add a subposition 16:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the vehicle movement code already has some kind of sub-grid-postion 16:06:56 <peter1138> you can't do it if you don't 16:07:09 <peter1138> hm 16:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean acceleration etc. 16:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but for display, it's always rounded to full grid position 16:07:30 *** KouDy [~KouDy@118.100.112.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:31 <peter1138> yeah 16:10:29 <peter1138> progress 16:11:35 <peter1138> hmm, advanceposition is *always* 3/4 :S 16:11:56 <peter1138> ahh GetAdvanceDistance 16:12:11 <peter1138> 192 & 256 16:12:22 <peter1138> change that to 181 16:12:40 <peter1138> i think 16:12:48 <peter1138> or maybe 16:13:07 <peter1138> 256 to 271? now i don't know 16:13:41 <peter1138> yeah 16:14:13 <peter1138> no 16:14:14 <peter1138> lol 16:14:28 <peter1138> yeah! 16:14:29 <peter1138> fuck it 16:14:34 * peter1138 gives up 16:17:16 <peter1138> of course, making the whole thing move correctly is another matter 16:17:24 <HalfBit> I can't follow what is happening :-P 16:17:49 <peter1138> the train following code would need to be modified to getadvnacedistance for each wagon, not just the head 16:18:00 <peter1138> that's what makes it slow down 16:18:23 <peter1138> then you'd probably end up with disconnecting trains everywhere :D 16:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> we should convert to a hex-grid, makes the problems less apparent ;) 16:18:32 <HalfBit> LOL 16:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it worked fine for civ ;) 16:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and it always worked in Siedler ;) 16:19:17 <peter1138> Civ never had 'improved' acceleration ;) 16:19:17 <SmatZ> :) 16:19:24 <SmatZ> civ had hex grid? 16:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> civ5 has hex grid 16:19:38 <SmatZ> ok :) 16:19:50 <SmatZ> homam had it too, during battles 16:20:10 <peter1138> pfft, hex grid is just a square grid with a slight offset and some stretching 16:20:17 <Ammler> so what first hex grid or 3dmap? 16:20:29 <HalfBit> hex grid is good to make round things rounder (like attack ranges) 16:20:47 <HalfBit> Dunno if it would be useful for something like ttd 16:21:04 <SmatZ> peter1138: indeed :) but imagine trains jumping on that hex-grid transformed to square-grid :) 16:21:18 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:21:47 *** LordAro [~kvirc@host86-167-85-11.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:21:52 <ZirconiumX> LOL 16:22:01 <ZirconiumX> hello LordAro 16:22:13 <SmatZ> he's stalking you 16:22:26 <LordAro> hello ZirconiumX :) 16:22:31 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:41 * ZirconiumX kicks SmatZ where it hurts 16:23:23 <SmatZ> /kick ZirconiumX does it hurt? 16:23:50 <ZirconiumX> Ow! 16:23:52 <SmatZ> I really didn't deserve being kicked :(( 16:24:32 <LordAro> i lol'd 16:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: hex-grid has the advantage that you don't need all the sqrt(2) magic 16:25:23 <peter1138> good luck with that 16:27:48 <peter1138> reimplementing pretty much... everything ;) 16:27:58 <SmatZ> well, Eddi|zuHause has a point, but it's probably unrealistic for openttd to change... 16:27:59 <peter1138> you might as well add smooth sweeping curves if you do that :D 16:31:40 <peter1138> or allow all freeform movement 16:32:02 <SmatZ> :) 16:32:09 <peter1138> then you'll be doing things based on angle 16:32:34 <peter1138> though you might need to find some fast algorithms that work in fixed point maths to avoid desyncs 16:34:33 <HalfBit> Reimplement everything in OpenGL, allow tracks in all directions, smooth curves, smooth terraforming, realistic grid size/vehicle speed ratios, etc... 16:34:44 <peter1138> yeah! and call it transport empire! 16:34:56 <HalfBit> Leave it to me, I'll do that (someday) ;-) 16:35:08 <SmatZ> :) 16:35:29 *** PhoenixII [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 16:35:52 <peter1138> or call it openbve...? 16:36:03 <peter1138> no landscaping there mind 16:36:43 <peter1138> simulating bogies eh? 16:37:19 <HalfBit> good, I didn't know about openbve 16:38:08 <HalfBit> I saw a demonstration on youtube the other day, that allowed to do draw bridges freely 16:38:20 <HalfBit> (any direction, curves, and from different heights) 16:38:41 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:38:55 <HalfBit> If we had at least diagonal bridges and tunnels in OpenTTD oh my, that would be great 16:39:14 <SmatZ> oh you! 16:40:33 *** thomas_ [~thomas@static128-249.mimer.net] has joined #openttd 16:40:39 *** thomas_ is now known as DJNekkid 16:41:36 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:43:11 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 16:44:19 <HalfBit> This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOLhnwllpgs 16:45:27 <SmatZ> I don't think I would want to spend hours building tracks in openttd 16:45:44 <SmatZ> but yeah, it looks nice 16:45:45 <peter1138> some people do 16:45:55 <HalfBit> ??! 16:46:10 <peter1138> i play it for making a transport network 16:46:12 <SmatZ> people have various attitudes when playing openttd, indeed :) 16:46:14 <peter1138> not for making money :) 16:46:18 <HalfBit> I think that most players spend hours building tracks in openttd 16:46:23 <SmatZ> I am a megalomaniac, so I like coop games 16:46:57 <SmatZ> but having to build tracks like in that video, it would take much more time 16:47:34 <peter1138> heh, and one of the related videos is from rigs of rods 16:47:44 <SmatZ> :) 16:51:41 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 16:53:08 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 16:53:45 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06ec12.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:54:56 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-223-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:55:44 *** Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has joined #openttd 17:08:36 *** JOHN-SHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-63-138.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:39:20 *** Scuddles [~notme@cm104.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: oh] 17:47:18 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B064.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:07 *** Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:19:14 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:33:08 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.11.14.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:58 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.11.14.158] has joined #openttd 18:41:39 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8ACA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21908 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt german.txt ukrainian.txt): 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by dihedral 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 36 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 3 changes by Fixer 18:51:06 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B064.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:52:55 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@239.212.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 18:59:31 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 19:00:11 <maddy_> I need help on making a station where all exiting trains can select between 2 tracks 19:00:55 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0acb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:02:09 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 19:03:40 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 19:03:43 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 19:05:54 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:07:45 <DanMacK> Hey all 19:07:57 <Markk> Oi 19:10:08 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:14:49 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.184.144] has joined #openttd 19:16:03 * andythenorth ponders 19:16:13 <andythenorth> industry production multiplier in advanced settings? 19:16:19 <andythenorth> I may regret this idea :P 19:17:15 <ABCRic> sounds kewl 19:18:32 <maddy_> so can anyone give me some tips regarding station exit balancing? I'm trying to look at wikis 19:18:41 <Alberth> industry production multiplier in the newgrf parameters? 19:19:00 <Alberth> hai Andy :) 19:25:25 <andythenorth> hai 19:25:41 <andythenorth> I can code it in newgrf 19:25:45 <andythenorth> or it could be in trunk 19:26:21 <andythenorth> industry code is (in places) disgusting to work with.... 19:26:29 <andythenorth> ...but this is probably not a contender for world's hardest patch 19:26:47 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:26:49 <andythenorth> it might need some thought w.r.t edge cases 19:28:56 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:33:21 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC577E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:34:59 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0acb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:36:55 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8ACA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 19:41:06 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:41:50 <Alberth> maddy_: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Main_Page are the professionals with some insane (in a good way) ideas 19:43:29 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 19:44:11 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:19 <maddy_> Alberth: I looked at that, I just realized how signals work in openttd I can't probably do what I wanted 19:48:13 <Alberth> you can always ask at the forums if somebody knows 19:49:18 <Alberth> I never had the need to balance exits much, my games are not that big. 19:50:33 <Ammler> maddy_: basically everything is possible somehow 19:52:25 <Ammler> what you are looking for is quite easy to to do... 19:56:20 *** DanM [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 19:59:46 <Alberth> so what do you want to do what you cannot? 20:01:58 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 20:03:41 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:04:00 *** DanM is now known as DanMacK 20:27:34 <Belugas> mmh... building a hierarchy of objects AFTER the first object was completed is a good exercise to improve mess 20:28:21 <Belugas> 1st object puts all common methods in new base, and new child fools around 20:28:51 <Belugas> and usually, at the end, it does not look sane at all and becomes a big spaguetti mess 20:33:44 <Alberth> spaghetti is jummy! 20:34:14 <Alberth> but some chopping and moving is useful when the spaghetti is in code :) 20:34:50 * Alberth hands a knife and fork (or do you need something with a bigger impact?) 20:35:34 <Belugas> dynamite :) 20:35:57 <Belugas> a soldering iron would be good too :) 20:36:50 <Alberth> a clean plate perhaps? I got two new ones from my xmas presents 20:37:05 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-17-128.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:38:42 <Alberth> it really helps, a colleaque of mine is building a piece of software for the second time, and he thinks it is much easier now :) 20:39:31 <andythenorth> lets do ottd again :) 20:40:20 <Alberth> let's call it P2sim :) 20:42:04 <andythenorth> what would be different? 20:43:19 <Alberth> everything of course, it will do all that openttd doesn't. I will first need to build a CMS to host all the ideas. 20:44:31 <andythenorth> and a project management system 20:44:38 <andythenorth> and a voting system 20:44:48 <andythenorth> and maybe a new language to author in? 20:45:13 <andythenorth> perhaps we can use an existing language, but build a big meta-framework to feed the compiler with? 20:45:23 <andythenorth> we could just define everything with xml 20:45:44 <andythenorth> and the meta-framework would build classes, enums etc for us from that 20:45:55 <andythenorth> it will take years, but think of the time saved! 20:46:23 <Alberth> I was thinking, perhaps we should make a 3D website, to really appreciate all the features. 20:46:52 <andythenorth> we could make ottd browser based 20:47:02 <andythenorth> but we might first want to define a new plugin standard 20:47:11 * andythenorth is fooling instead of writing code :P 20:47:22 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0acb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:47:28 * andythenorth should do something useful 20:47:52 <Alberth> but not too much :) 20:49:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: how is your thinking going on groups? 20:50:17 <Alberth> very good, I found a someone :) 20:50:38 <andythenorth> is there any thing like a spec? 20:51:20 <Alberth> and in the mean time, I try to shuffle trunk into a better shape for both groups and your rv-pony 20:51:33 <andythenorth> pony-wagons 20:51:55 * andythenorth wonders what version of OTTD is needed for HEQS 20:51:57 <andythenorth> I have no idea :P 20:52:44 <Alberth> a spec? what I posted in the suggestion thread comes closest to a spec, I think. I also added some other forum links to your wiki page 20:53:01 <Alberth> 'trunk' is always a good version :) 20:57:34 <Alberth> do you have something else in mind? 21:00:36 <Belugas> Alberth, a clean plate means going back 3 years 21:00:51 <Belugas> and thousands of customers with no more support until the new stuff is done 21:00:54 <Belugas> i'd say... 21:00:57 <Belugas> no 21:01:12 <Belugas> but thanks for the suggestion ;) 21:02:07 <Alberth> so that's going to be a lot of refactoring 21:04:31 *** ABCRic_ [~ABCRic@6.153.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 21:04:31 *** ABCRic is now known as Guest1624 21:04:31 *** ABCRic_ is now known as ABCRic 21:09:14 *** Guest1624 [~ABCRic@239.212.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:09:55 <andythenorth> hmm 21:10:01 *** maddy_ [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:05 <DanMacK> hmmm? 21:10:11 <andythenorth> the situation with readme / instructions for newgrfs isn't very satisfactory really 21:10:28 <andythenorth> wrt to bananas 21:10:39 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how to improve it though 21:12:11 <Alberth> simplest solution would be to add a 'README' button that opens a new window with the readme text of the tar file 21:13:08 <andythenorth> I figured something like that 21:13:08 <Alberth> s/text/file contents/ 21:13:41 <andythenorth> with a scrollbar on the window... 21:14:08 <Alberth> yep, eg like the message history window ;) 21:14:37 <Alberth> or the industry directory window 21:14:51 <andythenorth> ascii only 21:14:55 <andythenorth> or unicode friendly? 21:15:12 <Terkhen> it should be unicode 21:15:28 <Alberth> if possible, unicode, but no idea how to do that 21:15:54 <Alberth> it implies the readme file has a known encoding 21:16:13 <Rubidium> utf8 should be, or rather is, fine 21:16:13 <Alberth> perhaps some mark at the first line or so? 21:16:55 <andythenorth> enforced 80 char line limit, or wrap? 21:17:04 <Alberth> or by a unanymous vote assume it is utf8 :) 21:17:40 <Alberth> chop off anything at the right, enforcing will happen by itself then :) 21:17:46 <Rubidium> though ASCII is safer 21:18:18 <Rubidium> as everyone should have an ASCII capable font 21:18:29 <Rubidium> like using Cyrillic might not give the best results for the readme 21:19:01 <Alberth> it won't be much worse compared to the current situation either 21:19:46 <andythenorth> the current situation involves writing readmes that aren't read 21:20:00 <Alberth> lies! 21:20:09 <andythenorth> meanwhile trying like crazy to fit set description, instructions + parameter info into 500 chars for bananas 21:20:56 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.96.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:22:06 <Rubidium> parameter stuff belongs in action 14 ;) 21:23:40 <planetmaker> [22:15] <Alberth> it implies the readme file has a known encoding <-- that IMHO can be just made a requirement: if you want the readme readable from ingame, use utf-8 encoding. Done 21:25:36 <glx> planetmaker: so ASCII is good enough :) 21:26:01 <planetmaker> from my POV, too, yes. But utf-8 would allow basically most languages 21:26:15 <glx> ASCII is utf-8 21:26:21 <glx> a subset 21:26:21 <planetmaker> oh :-) 21:26:25 <planetmaker> well. yes 21:26:33 <planetmaker> good, then I wasn't wrong ;-) 21:27:29 <Alberth> isn't utf-7 for staying within the 128 characters defined by ASCII? 21:28:27 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.197.143] has joined #openttd 21:28:51 <glx> 0x00 - 0x7F range is valid utf-8 21:29:17 <glx> with only 1 byte 21:30:18 <andythenorth> Alberth: this somewhat has the advantage that you know you're way around the newgrf gui code :) 21:32:02 <planetmaker> for displaying the readme you don't need knowledge of newgrfs ;-) 21:32:09 <Alberth> 'this'? and s/you're/your/? /me thinks andy has some evil plans 21:32:37 <andythenorth> your /s 21:32:44 <andythenorth> as in 'Alberth' 21:32:45 <Alberth> but it's ok if we swap problems, fancy introducing consists into the game? 21:33:05 <andythenorth> I think they're an over-rated concept at the moment 21:33:07 <Alberth> I'd be more than happy to add a window 21:33:23 <andythenorth> all my most-fun games are on islands, with just one or trains per route 21:33:31 <andythenorth> consists are overkill :D 21:33:33 <Alberth> oh, consists with far less functionality than you think 21:33:41 <andythenorth> he 21:33:54 <andythenorth> well...I am busy updating a PDF readme for HEQS that will never be read :P 21:33:58 <Alberth> just a list of data structs, one for each first vehicle 21:34:29 <Alberth> with 'per consist' data in it, like caches and orders 21:34:34 <Alberth> that's all :p 21:34:51 <andythenorth> hmm 21:35:15 <andythenorth> I should understand what that will do. 21:35:19 <andythenorth> but I don't :| 21:35:43 <Alberth> it removes those data structures from the vehicles 21:36:01 <andythenorth> makes sense 21:36:15 <andythenorth> so vehicles can then be replaced in the consist 21:36:31 <andythenorth> without having to shuffle data off to some kind of fake vehicles in between? 21:36:36 <Alberth> eventually, many moons later, that might happen 21:36:57 <andythenorth> how interesting :) 21:38:00 <Alberth> I don't think it is very useful to think about consist-based replacing (or anything else consist-based) at this time 21:38:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth: write it as ascii ;-) 21:38:14 <Alberth> too complex :p 21:38:32 <Alberth> uisng only ASCII C++ code :) 21:38:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ascii pictures are somewhat limited 21:39:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but pdf display will never be supported ingame ;-) 21:39:09 <planetmaker> ascii is... likely 21:39:10 * SmatZ uses ANSI C :) 21:39:40 * andythenorth proposes writing a PDF renderer 21:39:47 <andythenorth> or more likely...not 21:41:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth: pdf is like avi. Both are ugly container formats 21:42:09 <glx> make it in flash ;) 21:42:12 <planetmaker> and pdf has more security issues than openttd commits 21:42:25 <SmatZ> ::P 21:42:44 <glx> the reader, not the format 21:43:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: eps renderer :P 21:43:30 * DanMacK is heading out, later all :D 21:43:34 <planetmaker> glx: sure. But... given the complexity of the format... 21:43:34 <andythenorth> or - and this is the current pain for someone I work with - rtf with inlined images 21:43:41 <planetmaker> laters, DanMacK :-) 21:43:48 <andythenorth> bye DanMacK 21:44:09 <glx> rtf is not nice either 21:44:25 <planetmaker> no. But plain ascii is fine enough. I don't find our readme ugly 21:44:32 * andythenorth wants pictues :P 21:44:36 <andythenorth> pictures even :P 21:44:39 <glx> ascii art 21:44:47 <planetmaker> :-) 21:44:53 <andythenorth> thumbnails? 21:45:03 <andythenorth> bandwidth :( 21:45:14 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:16 <planetmaker> no images. Images are the grf ingame 21:45:25 <andythenorth> true 21:45:57 * andythenorth has an evil idea 21:46:18 <andythenorth> the grf already has nearly everything you could want to know about a vehicle? 21:46:26 <andythenorth> and pictures of it :P 21:47:01 <andythenorth> how about a 'preview' that basically just renders the buy menu - but in newgrf window 21:47:27 <Alberth> andythenorth: a RESt renderer? 21:47:51 <andythenorth> restructured text? 21:47:59 <Alberth> yes 21:48:07 <andythenorth> urch 21:48:23 <Alberth> andythenorth: there are no industry buy pics 21:48:27 <andythenorth> I have a problem with formats like that: to me they look like broken html 21:48:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: nearly the same: use first industry layout 21:49:18 <Alberth> and you cannot explain which other grfs are recommended to be used 21:49:29 <andythenorth> for that the readme is still needed 21:49:41 <andythenorth> I was thinking ahead to 'preview' 21:50:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: basically I have been updating this, which prompted my thoughts: 21:50:17 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=103700 21:51:41 <Alberth> nice! 21:52:06 <andythenorth> yeah, but hard to distribute 21:52:21 <andythenorth> not bananas friendly 21:52:25 <andythenorth> pretty much tied to the forums 21:52:50 <Alberth> any particular reason Zephyris is mentioned with full name (and the others are not?) 21:53:22 <andythenorth> can't remember 21:53:28 <andythenorth> it's being updated though :) 21:53:53 <Mazur> Heavy pixels may fall. 21:54:14 <andythenorth> it's important to be aware of safety issues :P 21:55:06 <Alberth> good night 21:55:15 <SmatZ> good night Alberth 21:55:17 <andythenorth> night 21:55:42 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:59:11 <andythenorth> bye 21:59:12 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.184.144] has left #openttd [] 21:59:26 <Mazur> Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr. 22:00:23 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:42 <SmatZ> our poemist Mazur :) 22:00:44 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 22:00:48 *** DJNekkid [~thomas@static128-249.mimer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:03 <Mazur> Just quoting, SmatZ. 22:01:15 <Mazur> The Big Bang Theory. 22:01:24 <Mazur> Best sitcom ever. 22:01:40 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: any suggestions/ideas for FS#4440? 22:02:47 <Rubidium> to me it looks somewhat tricky at best, if not (sadly enough) impossible to solve 22:03:32 <fonsinchen> What is the problem about having duplicate auto-orders for some time? 22:06:17 <fonsinchen> OK, I think I don't quite get it. I'll check the savegame 22:09:05 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:09:36 <Rubidium> the order before the service order seems to stay in the list indefinitely 22:10:34 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8ACA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:11:05 <fonsinchen> That's a point. We should remove unreached auto orders when skipping a maintenance order. 22:12:00 <Rubidium> though, when you implement that you'll create a situation where: 22:12:23 <Rubidium> * autoservice happens, so Rocca before the service order 22:12:40 <Rubidium> * arrives in Mezza, so Rocca after service order gets removed 22:13:10 <Rubidium> * goes on and arrives at Arezzo, processes service order and skips it removing the stub order for Rocca 22:13:24 <Rubidium> s/stub/automatic/ 22:13:46 <fonsinchen> Yes, the service order will show up in different places from time to time. 22:13:47 <Rubidium> leaving you with an order list without Rocca that'd mess up the link graph 22:14:37 <fonsinchen> That's the same as having nondeterministic conditional orders. We can't do a lot about that. 22:15:40 <Terkhen> good night 22:16:11 <fonsinchen> Does it really mess up the link graph? I mean every time it gets to Arezzo it will know that Rocca is the next station. 22:16:26 <fonsinchen> As in some way it has visited Rocca in the last turn. 22:17:00 <Rubidium> true, but what if I add a station between Arezzo and Rocca? 22:17:41 <fonsinchen> The same. It will keep a pair of auto-orders where there is one now. 22:19:10 <fonsinchen> (provided that we remove auto-orders on skipping maintenance) 22:20:03 *** ABCRic is now known as Guest1635 22:20:04 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@93.196.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 22:20:48 <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/poc.sav <- on autoservice run. When reaching Mezza it will remove some automatic orders to both Roccas, after Arezzo it would/should remove the auto orders before the service order. Leaving you without the automatic orders for both Rocca, which means the last Rocca isn't in the order list when the first Rocca is reached 22:23:31 <Rubidium> though I don't really see a solution to that problem that's simple and/or elegant 22:24:19 <Rubidium> you could move automatic orders over the border of service orders, but that'll probably be messy with things 22:24:28 <fonsinchen> We can just say: You created nondeterministic behaviour as we don't know if the stations will be visited before or after the maintenance order. 22:25:05 <fonsinchen> Nondeterministic behaviour leads to cargodist doing strange things. 22:25:19 *** Guest1635 [~ABCRic@6.153.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:25:25 <Rubidium> unless... you increment the current order index when processing the service order 22:25:47 <Rubidium> then it'll just add automatic orders always after service orders and it's not (that) non-deterministic 22:26:03 <fonsinchen> but confusing 22:26:07 <Rubidium> but given the complexity of the order system there has to be a catch somewhere 22:26:20 <fonsinchen> orders are processed in a different order then shown then. 22:27:48 <Rubidium> hmm, for loading stuff orders are used and then you basically "rebuild" the current order 22:29:06 <Rubidium> I guess that leaves fixing the removal of orders for the service order and a bit of known-bugs.txt about non-determinism and the automatic orders not working "right" in that situation 22:30:49 <fonsinchen> So, either we do the current_order incrementation when processing a maintenance order - then we don't need to remove auto-orders when processing a maintenance order. 22:30:55 <fonsinchen> or we do it the other way round 22:31:07 <fonsinchen> In the first case the order list looks pretty. 22:31:35 <fonsinchen> In the second case we create determinism in that case and it works better. 22:33:29 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:33 <fonsinchen> In any case I won't do it today. Let's decide about that tomorrow. 22:33:35 <Rubidium> I fear the first case might not work unless we'd be using some magic 22:33:54 <Rubidium> in the BeginLoading / EndLoading code 22:34:22 <fonsinchen> Of course we have to suppress incrementing the order index at the next order then, yes. 22:34:27 <fonsinchen> Probably messy. 22:34:30 <Rubidium> to set some magic bits when the vehicle is/was using a depot order 22:35:05 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 22:35:09 <Rubidium> it'll be somewhat messy, but I guess it's (eventually) possible 22:35:59 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@93.196.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: The bad thing about quit messages is that you never know how people react to them.] 22:36:09 * fonsinchen would need to take a closer look at the code to comment on that but is too tired. 22:36:16 <fonsinchen> good night. 22:36:40 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0acb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:41 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 22:39:46 <Wolf01> 'night 22:39:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host78-160-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:14:27 *** goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d0352e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:23:57 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:39:41 *** LordAro [~kvirc@host86-167-85-11.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:19 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:48:05 <Ammler> I see the next limit, which needs to be broken :-) 23:52:00 <Rubidium> like? 23:53:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B064.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:49 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:55:54 <SmatZ> all limit are here to be broken! 23:56:01 <SmatZ> limits, too 23:56:36 <Chris_Booth> hi all 23:56:56 <SmatZ> hello Chris_Booth 23:57:06 <Chris_Booth> hi SmatZ 23:59:34 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]