Log for #openttd on 1st February 2011:
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06:56:11  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:09:26  <planetmaker> moin
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10:43:47  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21935 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19231): Allow to overbuild road stops which are built over trams.
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10:48:23  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21936 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp:
10:48:23  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4457](r19231): Do not remove existing road/tram bits when overbuilding stops of the opposite road type.
10:48:23  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Change: Build only the required road/tram bits when building stops with drag and drop.
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11:06:51  <Wolf01> hello
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11:16:31  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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11:28:46  <guyht> I am looking to host a dedicated openttd server on an amazon ec2 instance. Has anyone had experience doing this?
11:29:17  <andrew12> it'd be the same as hosting it on any other linux box
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11:38:52  <Rubidium> given they say Ubuntu runs on EC2 I reckon andrew12's right
11:39:08  <andrew12> well
11:39:12  <andrew12> debian can
11:39:31  <andrew12> but honestly ec2 is usually very expensive compared to a vps
11:39:36  <andrew12> a regular vps, at least
11:39:56  <Rubidium> don't you pay for used CPU with EC2?
11:40:21  <andrew12> no idea
11:40:35  <andrew12> afaik you get what you pay for
11:42:22  <Rubidium> given that like 5 of 6 dedicated servers are without players they'd be basically idling anyway
11:42:41  <andrew12> well in that case ec2 is better
11:42:50  <andrew12> because you can shut it off and you dont have to pay
11:42:51  <andrew12> :p
11:44:41  <guyht> It's for a private game
11:45:10  <guyht> But actually I suppose we could all hook up to an empty dedicated server
11:45:32  <planetmaker> if you just want a private game and meet concurrently you don't need a dedicated server anyway
11:45:45  <andrew12> yep
11:46:19  <guyht> I know, but one of us has an ec2 instance and thought we could put it to use
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11:48:47  <andrew12> guyht: why not just have one of you host it on your pc? :p
11:49:13  <guyht> That is the alternative, but so far we have been having router problems
11:50:28  <guyht> also, i like the idea of having a dedicated host
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11:53:01  <blathijs> andrew12: planetmaker: You're skipping over the fact that it's totally cool to use EC2 to run OpenTTD, regardless of whether it is a "good" solution at all ;-p
11:53:36  <guyht> That, of course, is the other reason :D
11:53:40  <andrew12> how is that "cool"?
11:53:42  <planetmaker> hehe @ blathijs :-)
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11:59:09  <guyht_> Going to give it a go. Thanks for the input.
11:59:59  <blathijs> andrew12: Because it's a new and non-standard use of both EC2 and the OpenTTD dedicated server? :-)
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12:03:29  <andrew12> heh
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12:17:09  <DanMacK> Hey all
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14:02:07  * ZirconiumX shouldn't be here - but is
14:06:44  <SmatZ> why you shouldn't be here?
14:07:34  * ZirconiumX *should* be at school - and if I was I wouldn't be here
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14:07:51  <ZirconiumX> I'm off school ill
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14:44:49  <Belugas> hello
14:56:01  <DanMacK> howdy
14:57:08  <welshdragon> are savegames made with older patched builds of OpenTTD compatible with a newer patched build? (i.e. IS2.1.1 saves will load with the Departure Boards patch)
15:01:56  <Rubidium> depends on the patch, but general rule of thumb: try it
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15:17:03  <welshdragon> ta Rubidium, will give it a shot later :P
15:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> welshdragon: unless it's a properly maintained patchpack, the answer is usually no
15:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it CAN be done, but is usually a bit of work, so most patch maintainers don't bother
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15:46:54  <Ammler> afaik, none since MiniIN
15:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think Chill's Patch Pack did implement a MiniIN-style system
16:06:12  <Rubidium> the source of it seems to support that it at least tries to do that
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16:10:13  <Troy_> I have a comment on the v. 1.10
16:10:24  <Terkhen> hi Troy_
16:10:42  <Troy_> hi
16:11:01  <__ln__> all prepare for a comment
16:11:05  <Troy_> the stations can now be named after the industries they in the neighbourhood with
16:11:29  <V453000> newgrf
16:11:29  <Troy_> so a station built in the vicinity of a coal mine, will get the name <city> Coal Mine
16:11:34  <Troy_> however...
16:11:47  <Troy_> there  can be more coal mines in a city area
16:12:08  <V453000> that is done by the newgrf "Station name from nearby industries"
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16:12:21  <Troy_> So the next one will be just normally "<city> Heights"
16:12:33  <Troy_> yeah, im just saying its not complete in that way
16:12:39  <V453000> I guess, I do not know
16:12:45  <V453000> just try it?
16:12:54  <Troy_> I've noticed playin on the welcome server
16:13:19  <V453000> yes, there is that newgrf
16:13:26  <Troy_> after the first station in a city area, you have to manually change it to have the word "coal" in or something
16:13:28  <Troy_> I know
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16:14:38  <Troy_> but I think its weird if that only counts for one industry thingy in a city area
16:14:49  <planetmaker> station names must be uniq
16:14:59  <Troy_> that I know
16:15:13  <Troy_> so there might be two problems:
16:15:27  <Troy_> the station wont get the name, because the station name must be unique
16:15:43  <Troy_> or the name is only assigned to one station in one city area
16:16:22  <planetmaker> yes, but where is there even one problem?
16:16:37  <Troy_> there is not a real problem, only a subjective
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16:17:07  <Troy_> If I want to have all my stations near coal mines to be named <city> Coal mine
16:17:22  <Troy_> and one is just named <city> Heights or something
16:17:45  <Troy_> than -you could say- what is the use of the newgrf if it isnt complete
16:17:48  <V453000> yes simply because they cannot have 2 same names
16:17:55  <Troy_> I get that
16:18:02  <Troy_> so dont give them the same name
16:18:08  <V453000> then write to the author to change it
16:18:17  <Rubidium> he can't
16:18:31  <Troy_> I can write
16:18:38  <Troy_> or cant the author change it?
16:18:43  <V453000> :) even so
16:18:51  <Rubidium> the author can't change it
16:18:56  <Rubidium> an industry has only one name
16:18:56  <Troy_> a solution might be to just add a number to next coal mine in the city area
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16:19:27  <Rubidium> the other solution would be to remove the option to build multiple industries in the same town
16:19:56  <Troy_> yes, but that would be senseles imo
16:20:11  <V453000> you can still name the mines manually
16:20:13  <Rubidium> it's the easiest solution
16:20:26  <Troy_> yes, yes
16:21:03  <Troy_> but you would have to change the settings just to avoid a newgrf's inability to add a number behind a station
16:21:38  <Troy_> So we have a newgrf, it gives the station the name of the industry in its direct vicinity
16:21:55  <Troy_> but only if there is only one in the city aread
16:22:07  <Troy_> after that it reverts to older mechanisms of naming stations
16:22:19  <V453000> how does that help?
16:22:23  <Troy_> I think that's a very incomplete newgrf
16:22:28  <Troy_> that is the situation now
16:22:30  <V453000> that would only make you rename all of the stations instead of renaming all but one
16:22:57  <Troy_> how does what help?
16:23:35  <Terkhen> what if someone prefers to have different names for the stations?
16:24:02  <V453000> Troy_: that there are 2 mines near one town does not mean you will connect both of them
16:24:09  <Terkhen> (Town) Coal Mine #3 sounds boring
16:24:26  <V453000> if you disabled the newgrf naming just because there are 2, it would in many cases just disable it without a need
16:24:50  <Troy_> @terkhen, perhaps it does, but what is the sense of naming it to an industry in the neighbourhood, if you can only do it once per city
16:25:03  <V453000> because it is better than nothing?
16:25:13  <Terkhen> because usually you don't have more than a single industry of the same type near a town
16:25:19  <V453000> yes
16:25:23  <Troy_> okay, it is better than nothing, but still
16:25:29  <Troy_> I dont have a real problem with it
16:25:36  <Troy_> just making a comment
16:26:09  <Troy_> @Terkhen, dont be to sure about that
16:26:34  <V453000> Troy_: just get over it that it works that way
16:26:53  <Troy_> the coop company on the stable has a number of #3,#4 stations
16:27:16  <Terkhen> in the cases I have more than a single industry in the same town, I prefer to have different names for them
16:27:45  <V453000> and I refuse to have names like #1 in the end of the name, and have any other random names instead :)
16:27:54  <Troy_> yes, but an <industry>#1 is a different name from <industry>#2
16:28:01  <Troy_> okay
16:28:31  <Terkhen> I know they are different, but I hope you understand what I mean :)
16:29:22  <Troy_> yes, you'd rather have x coal mine and x heights than x coal mine and x coal mine#2
16:29:42  <Terkhen> yes
16:30:44  <Troy_> you said stations need to have different names?
16:31:50  <Troy_> Im watching the stable now as a spectator (bad connection on my side prevents me from joining a comp)
16:32:22  <Troy_> and it looks like there are two of the same names, though one is truck station and another a train station
16:34:29  <glx> isn't it the same station ?
16:34:37  <Troy_> no
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16:51:04  <Mazur> There is an error in PG: Country Stations.  Freight Station oriented NS is actually the image of Passenger Station.
16:51:13  <Mazur> BGS
16:51:15  <Mazur> PGS
16:51:18  <Mazur> Damnit!
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18:11:00  <z-MaTRiX_> hahah
18:11:03  <z-MaTRiX_> Illegal_Alien
18:11:11  <z-MaTRiX_> aliens are illegal?
18:12:44  <Prof_Frink> If they violate the articles of the Shadow Proclamation
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18:16:53  <planetmaker> well. Ever played UFO?
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18:18:16  <IchGuckLive> Hi all, i got another question im in the desert, if i delever lets say 5trainloads of water per month to a town without watertower ,WILL it build one at its own ?
18:18:38  <planetmaker> no
18:18:41  <V453000> since it does not accept water, it will not
18:18:45  <Alberth> how can you deliver water without water tower?
18:19:06  <Alberth> it may build one, but not because you transport cargo
18:19:39  <IchGuckLive> i can give the train unload and leave without loading
18:19:56  <V453000> do you understand that the town has no means how to accept the water? :)
18:19:59  <Alberth> so you have a very filled station :)
18:20:22  <IchGuckLive> i did 1 load to the town and it wars still there if the train arived the second time
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18:20:53  <Alberth> yes, the town cannot accept it, so it sits at your station until it evaporates
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18:21:42  <IchGuckLive> its slightly desapearing  gallon by gallon
18:21:47  <Alberth> basically, "unload and no loading" means you throw it out of the train without caring whether the destination wants it."
18:22:01  <Alberth> s/"$//
18:22:21  <Alberth> all cargo disappears after some time
18:23:02  <Alberth> a much more effective strategy is to build a water tower for the town first :)
18:23:35  <IchGuckLive> its so expensive to build one
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18:24:08  <IchGuckLive> i think i will build a Lumber mill insted thats ,good for more money
18:24:10  <Alberth> you seem to have money enough, given that you are transporting cargo you don't get paid for :)
18:26:11  <IchGuckLive> i will Alberth
18:27:43  <IchGuckLive> the News info Messages shoudt be stored in a file and reloadet  when the game is started ,if i play 5min on friday and then 10min on monday the masseges are not there
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18:45:28  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r21937 /trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt:
18:45:28  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:28  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: turkish - 32 changes by leventpasha
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18:59:47  <andythenorth> eveneeeng
19:00:10  <planetmaker> moin andythenorth
19:00:34  * Alberth waves hello to andy
19:00:56  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
19:00:56  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 4 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <DanMacK> howdy
19:01:04  <andythenorth> he came, he went
19:01:06  <andythenorth> he conquered
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19:01:54  <Alberth> you missed him by 40 minutes
19:02:51  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
19:03:43  * andythenorth has been forging new FIRS features :P
19:03:49  <andythenorth> and shipping some things in FISH
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19:03:58  <Terkhen> :)
19:04:29  <andythenorth> I was hoping for a nice flame war in the 'single items' thread :(
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19:17:43  <planetmaker> I drew you some coal-loaded river boat, andythenorth ;-)
19:17:54  <andythenorth> I seed it :)
19:18:08  <andythenorth> do you want to do the intermediate loading stage?
19:18:09  <planetmaker> hm.. draw drew drawn is wrong?
19:18:19  <andythenorth> drew is fine
19:18:24  <SpComb> 'leech'
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19:18:44  <andythenorth> and 'wrong' is a flexible concept in english
19:18:51  * andythenorth is reading indian news websites
19:18:51  <planetmaker> I guess intermediate is easy
19:19:07  <andythenorth> they're not difficult :)
19:19:08  <planetmaker> it just needs copy & paste of a few rectangles
19:19:10  <andythenorth> it just takes work
19:19:19  <planetmaker> which this was actually, too
19:19:34  <planetmaker> i copied the coal from opengfx+trains and pasted it ;-)
19:19:35  <andythenorth> once one set is done, the other bulk cargos just need 'fill'
19:19:48  <andythenorth> personally I am a big fan of the HEQS bulk cargos
19:19:51  <andythenorth> can't think why :P
19:19:58  <planetmaker> hehe
19:20:11  <planetmaker> they're smaller than train bulk cargo ;-)
19:20:40  <planetmaker> if you want "source" images I can only give you gimp files, though
19:20:47  <andythenorth> pah
19:20:48  <planetmaker> photoshop won't install here
19:20:51  <andythenorth> are they layered?
19:20:58  <andythenorth> I can diff if needed
19:21:00  <planetmaker> well, when I use that feature: yes ;-)
19:21:11  <planetmaker> I didn't think of it this noon
19:21:54  <andythenorth> if they're layered, then layered png might work as interchange format
19:22:01  <andythenorth> assuming you want to take on this task :)
19:22:07  <andythenorth> otherwise me or dan will get to it eventually
19:22:21  <andythenorth> I have to rearrange sprite sheets and such to more logically support it
19:22:38  <planetmaker> well. I can give you it in gimp file format. Not sure png can be layered or how
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20:33:52  * andythenorth does ponder
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20:37:11  <Alberth> No worries, I am quite sure you exist
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20:41:00  <andythenorth> why is a forge a less efficient user of metal than a machine shop?
20:41:46  <supermop_> because it is essentially a 3000 year old technology?
20:42:07  <andythenorth> ok
20:42:09  <andythenorth> I'm sold
20:42:10  <Hirundo> I'd guess, a forge is mostly a less efficient user of time
20:42:38  <andythenorth> I have to include them in FIRS, but there needs to be a reason to stop using them
20:42:43  * planetmaker buys andythenorth
20:42:48  <Rubidium> I'd argue that we're getting less efficient with resources lately
20:43:21  <Hirundo> It would be 'realistic' to limit forge production, but that'd be against the general idea of FIRS
20:44:45  <andythenorth> I'd have to add a setting
20:44:53  <andythenorth> 'turn off forge stockpiling' :P
20:45:03  <Rubidium> apparantly there is over 10.000 tonnes of "bad" quality/unsold cookies/cakes/bread fed to animals a week in the NL
20:45:25  <andythenorth> maybe I break FIRS into individual industries
20:45:35  <andythenorth> which can be used as industry, or new object
20:45:43  <andythenorth> and the cargos can also be turned on and off at will
20:46:15  <Hirundo> Mind that (mere mortal) users may fear the power of choice
20:46:27  <andythenorth> well it might end the war?
20:46:33  <Rubidium> that's just more than half a kilogram per person per week of waste that didn't need to be waste
20:46:54  <Rubidium> just because the broken percentage of a batch of cookies was too high or something stupid
20:47:42  <supermop_> but one could argue that those animals need to eat something, and reusing the waste from human food reduces the amount of food that must be grown just for the animals
20:48:06  <Rubidium> when it was still done by the backer it might be slightly less efficient with resources to create a cookie, but they wouldn't ditch whole batches
20:48:21  <Rubidium> they'd just remove the broken cookies and eat them theirselves
20:49:10  <Rubidium> supermop_: true, they need to eat something... but really... they already get too much
20:49:27  <Hirundo> Apparently, the consumers want every piece of chicken to be exactly like every other piece of chicken
20:50:02  <Rubidium> e.g. we import beef from Africa so we can mix it with "our" beef so you can sell it as "lean" ground beef
20:50:09  <supermop_> then buy free range chicken instead to remove the incentive for chicken farmers to overfeed factory farm chickens
20:50:12  <planetmaker> hm... looking at many title game suggestions I have the feeling that the time spent on it is not much - luckily there are the bright exceptions
20:50:16  <Hirundo> And packs of cookies should not contain too many broken ones, because we don't like broken cookies although they taste the same
20:50:31  <supermop_> i mean
20:51:07  <Rubidium> I rarely eat chicken, so that's not the problem
20:51:12  <supermop_> some customers who need to use the cookies in a public setting might throw away any broken cookies they receive
20:51:29  <supermop_> better that they go to a use than a landfill
20:53:08  <Rubidium> but there'll still be broken cookies in the packets, just (possibly) a few less
20:53:26  <Alberth> people also buy too much at the groceries, there is an insane amount of food thrown away in that way
21:04:03  <supermop_> really the best thing you can do is be responsible with your own consumption...
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21:26:08  <andythenorth> 'ironworks' or 'iron works' ?
21:26:42  <Alberth> the 2nd happens when the sun shines on iron, I think
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22:05:07  <andythenorth> iron works is an early FIRS industry.  Iron ore in = very small amount of metal out
22:05:20  <andythenorth> should I make it locate near iron ore mines?
22:05:31  <andythenorth> realistic + helpful for gameplay
22:06:48  <supermop_> yeah
22:09:42  <planetmaker> ^
22:12:19  <andythenorth> ok
22:13:37  <supermop_> i think it makes a lot of sense for the early industries
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22:20:38  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r21938 /trunk/src/vehicle_base.h: -Codechange: AfterLoadGame() is no longer friend of Vehicle.
22:22:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "why can't we just stay friends?"
22:22:46  <andythenorth> iron works now colocates with iron ore mines :)
22:22:54  <andythenorth> maybe forests + sawmills should do same :P
22:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the earlier the game, the more local should be the economy cycle
22:23:29  <andythenorth> easy to say :D
22:23:37  <andythenorth> harder to implement :D
22:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that means mostly that there should be many small industries, not few big ones
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22:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you look at medieval cities, each one basically has each of the "industries"
22:25:08  <andythenorth> true
22:25:18  <andythenorth> but then later gameplay is very boring
22:25:24  <andythenorth> bearing in mind there's no industry closure
22:25:36  <andythenorth> and I can't cripple the early industries too much
22:26:37  * andythenorth wonders about revisiting industry closure
22:27:16  <z-MaTRiX_> hey-ho
22:27:21  <andythenorth> closure might be fun
22:27:21  <z-MaTRiX_> i see nightlife
22:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but not random closure
22:27:56  <andythenorth> ho
22:28:09  <andythenorth> I was thinking of random closures every now and then
22:28:17  <andythenorth> 'sorry your industry failed'
22:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: more like: all smithing works close down if a steel mill opens in the region
22:28:43  <andythenorth> yeah that's probably fairer
22:28:51  <andythenorth> that can be done in nfo (at a stretch)
22:29:03  <andythenorth> I'd rather see some kind of scripting language handle that
22:29:05  <z-MaTRiX_> :)
22:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> what is your definition of "night"?
22:29:28  <andythenorth> AI equivalent - but running through game as a kind of master controller
22:29:47  <z-MaTRiX_> how about transporting oil to the other side of the map, if an oil refinery opens near the oilrig ?
22:29:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: scenario scripting, yes.
22:30:27  <andythenorth> I can see it being a nightmare :P
22:30:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: start with something easy. a script can open a window with custom text and a few more or less customisable buttons ;)
22:30:39  <andythenorth> if it also was allowed to control industry production etc
22:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> like "this is the tutorial game, if you want to skip the instructions and just want to play around, click "cancel""
22:31:25  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:32:19  <andythenorth> one day we'll figure it out
22:32:28  <andythenorth> and many days later, we might even code it :P
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22:32:59  <andythenorth> I'm not sure about colocating too many industries
22:33:13  <andythenorth> i.e. second in chain tries to build near first in chain
22:33:21  <andythenorth> it makes it a bit...easy
22:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: keep in mind that besides ships you only have small horse carriages
22:37:20  <andythenorth> and horse tramways (maybe)
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22:37:59  <andythenorth> I'll consider it, but it needs a bit of thought
22:39:04  <andythenorth> good night :)
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23:08:15  <Terkhen> good night
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23:36:48  <z-MaTRiX_> bb
23:36:53  <z-MaTRiX_> testing new realtime vanilla kernel
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23:37:08  <__ln__> i didn't know openttd has a kernel
23:37:37  * planetmaker wonders whether he really knows what 'real time' refers to and offers - and how he wants to make use of it
23:38:58  <ccfreak2k> RTOS perhaps.
23:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it's always the kiddies who think "oh, 'real time', it must be really fast!"
23:40:53  <planetmaker> yeah
23:41:02  <planetmaker> quite not so ;-)
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