Log for #openttd on 24th February 2011:
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01:16:42  <supermop> hello
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06:44:45  <planetmaker> moin
06:45:34  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:58:17  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22136 /trunk/src/core/ (pool_func.cpp pool_type.hpp): -Fix (r22112): Silence compiler warning about non-virtual destructor
06:58:40  <andythenorth> mornings
06:58:59  <planetmaker> moin andythenorth
07:00:40  * planetmaker ponders and OpenGFX+ houses which - for a starter - only modifies the default properties of houses without giving them new graphics
07:00:50  <planetmaker> so that they then might accept food or coal or alike
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07:21:09  <andythenorth> planetmaker: sounds good
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07:34:56  <Terkhen> hmm... will the cargos be configurable?
07:35:24  <andythenorth> params?
07:35:44  <andythenorth> hmm
07:36:06  * andythenorth ponders a town newgrf that does something with acceptance of base set houses
07:36:54  <planetmaker> Terkhen: partially that's possible. Fully... it's missing gui support on the openttd side
07:37:12  <planetmaker> dword2label ;-)
07:37:25  <planetmaker> enter the label as decimal number and it's feasible
07:38:14  <Terkhen> hmmm... so the missing part is converting text such as (COAL) into something the NewGRF can understand? still it would require users to know about cargo labels
07:38:53  <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes, it would. But that'd be an advanced setting for those who know
07:39:18  <planetmaker> one could combine a selection of default and a 2nd param which is user-configurable that way
07:39:23  <planetmaker> and use the latter only when set
07:39:38  <Terkhen> yes, for normal users a selection of common presets would do
07:39:40  <planetmaker> it would also help supermob's depot grf
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07:43:06  <andythenorth> he comes, he goes :P
07:46:07  <Terkhen> :)
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07:55:47  * Terkhen wonders how can he have very low connectivity when he's at 2m from the access point
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08:08:34  <planetmaker> Terkhen, remove your signal attenuator ;-)
08:10:13  <Terkhen> it's probably the access point fault, usually I don't have problems
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08:12:14  <planetmaker> :-)
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09:20:47  <zydeco> good morning
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09:28:41  <planetmaker> moin zydeco
09:30:38  <V453000> elo
10:03:32  <peter1138> weird. all the irc channels i'm on are idle.
10:07:28  <V453000> same here. everybody died probably
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10:11:48  <Terkhen> I'm writing documentation, which is more or less the same thing than dying
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10:27:52  <andythenorth> it's oh so quiet
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10:29:59  <Vikthor> Maybe everybody else had also been writing documentation ;)
10:30:53  <zydeco> I'm implementing CJK input in mac os x
10:31:02  <zydeco> but it only works on 10.6 or later
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10:37:34  <Terkhen> that sounds boring too
10:46:58  <zydeco> there's some code from mozilla
10:47:00  <zydeco> nsAutoRetainCocoaObject kungFuDeathGrip(self);
10:47:58  <Terkhen> :D
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11:01:44  <Eddi|zuHause> large town houses built before 1960 (value open to discussion) should accept coal
11:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe small town houses accept wood?
11:02:11  *** DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> nah, that's silly
11:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe large town houses before 1850 accept wood?
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11:09:01  * andythenorth wishes there were interesting disasters
11:09:15  <andythenorth> and that they were scaled according to the amount of money you have
11:09:44  <andythenorth> "gangsters demand protection money - 50% of net income"
11:09:59  <andythenorth> "proceed to old kent road"
11:10:00  <andythenorth> etc
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11:14:03  <andythenorth> NewDisasters :P
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11:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> clearly you need a station spread of 32768 on a 32768^2 map
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11:45:45  <zydeco> so you only need one station?
11:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause> only one station won't work, you need two stations, but you can send the train with cargo both ways
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11:54:31  <planetmaker> zydeco, that's fine enough for a start
11:54:58  <planetmaker> though a 10.4+ implementation would be preferrable ;-)
11:55:06  <zydeco> I'm trying that now
11:55:48  <planetmaker> be sure to attach the patch to the appropriate flyspray entry :-)
11:55:56  <zydeco> of course
11:55:59  <planetmaker> I'll gladly go over it
11:56:16  <zydeco> the 10.6+ code is nice and clean
11:56:23  <zydeco> but the other one is quite ugly
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11:56:34  <planetmaker> you could also for discussion purposes attach both ;-)
11:56:40  * andythenorth_ should upgrade to 10.6 :P
11:56:45  <andythenorth_> and also learn to speak CJK
11:56:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, wait for 10.7 ;-)
11:57:14  <andythenorth_> I've never been behind the curve before
11:57:24  <andythenorth_> must be a sign of maturity for either me, or the OS :P
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12:01:11  <Wolf01> hello
12:02:03  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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12:19:38  <planetmaker> hi Wolf01
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13:00:09  * andythenorth_ is considering vcs for a new project
13:00:18  <andythenorth_> how does openttd use both hg and svn?
13:00:21  <DanMacK> vcs?
13:00:30  <andythenorth_> can commits be made via hg, or svn only?
13:00:30  <glx> andythenorth_: and git
13:00:36  <andythenorth_> git is on our list too
13:00:40  <glx> commits are via svn only
13:00:49  <andythenorth_> so git & hg are checkout only?
13:01:03  <glx> kind of synchronised clones
13:01:21  <andythenorth_> anyone care to comment on their preferred vcs of hg / git / svn?
13:01:51  <glx> it depends on what you exactly need
13:02:03  <andythenorth_> distributed vcs preferred by me
13:02:10  <andythenorth_> I dislike svn
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13:02:17  <andythenorth_> it doesn't encourage atomic commits
13:03:13  <andythenorth_> is migrating from svn to hg / git later a viable plan for a new project?
13:03:18  <andythenorth_> or does that lose revision history?
13:04:06  <Terkhen> mercurial has tools that allow you to import that, git probably has them too
13:05:21  <planetmaker> the question is: why would you start with one and migrate later - if you know it already now?
13:05:32  <andythenorth_> the rest of the team don't know hg
13:05:34  <andythenorth_> or git
13:06:02  <andythenorth_> and we don't want to risk our project on new tools
13:06:08  <planetmaker> well. If they use tortoiseSVN they'll find it easy to use TortoiseHG
13:06:23  <andythenorth_> they're more command-line driven :D
13:06:30  <planetmaker> good :-)
13:06:36  <andythenorth_> and it's a question of deploying production code to multiple boxes
13:06:47  <andythenorth_> in a managed way
13:06:53  <andythenorth_> with a lot of python packages in play
13:06:59  <planetmaker> point of, say, hg vs. svn: with hg you can do offline commits. With svn you can't
13:07:05  <andythenorth_> I know
13:07:07  <andythenorth_> I like that
13:07:26  <Terkhen> also hg usually works faster because of that
13:07:27  <planetmaker> It should not be a problem, if the people know svn
13:07:44  <planetmaker> then they could just as well use hg. I *think*.
13:07:50  <planetmaker> But... easy to say that I know and use both
13:08:13  <planetmaker> so it depends on other boundary conditions
13:10:06  <planetmaker> the "backdraw" of hg over svn is that only the hash is unique. The revision number is not necessarily the same on your and my machine
13:10:21  <planetmaker> but that's the case for every dvcs
13:11:48  <zydeco> why is there a quickdraw window driver
13:11:57  <planetmaker> why not?
13:12:00  <zydeco> my cjk input doesn't work with it :p
13:12:13  <planetmaker> he
13:12:25  <zydeco> and it also doesn't work in full screen
13:12:34  <planetmaker> :-(
13:12:40  <planetmaker> also not the 10.6 only version?
13:12:50  <zydeco> no, full screen captures the whole screen
13:12:52  <zydeco> so no windows can show
13:18:17  <peter1138> planetmaker, drawback :S
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13:32:46  <dihedral> oi
13:33:30  <peter1138> oi?
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13:50:14  <planetmaker> peter1138, well, it is. A simple number is easier to grasp on first sight than a rather lengthy hash
13:50:30  <planetmaker> IMHO it doesn't outweigh any of the other advantages of dvcs, though
13:52:11  <peter1138> planetmaker, as opposed to... "backdraw" ?
13:52:44  <peter1138> sorry, i didn't actually read what you were talking about, only picked up on the word :)
13:52:50  <peter1138> (and i like git)
13:53:14  <peter1138> the hash *is* the 'revision number'
13:55:45  <blathijs> planetmaker: Btw, if offline commits is the only thing you want for svn, try svk :-)
13:55:58  <peter1138> svk... uck.
13:56:20  <blathijs> planetmaker: (I am totally fan of using hg, or even better, git, for a ton of additional reasons)
14:00:29  <planetmaker> blathijs, peter1138: I'm not advising svn here ;-) - but it's something which can be a (weak) argument.
14:01:39  <blathijs> What I've always wandered, is why hg didn't just use incremental revision numbers per branch
14:02:12  <blathijs> that is, number each revision by the number of commits since the root commit
14:03:10  <blathijs> so they are the same in different repository, but there might be double revisions in different branches
14:03:35  <Mazur> Id there anywhere a list of webpage detailing the order in which certain NewGRFs must be to work well?
14:03:42  <Mazur> s/of/or/
14:04:21  <andythenorth> hmm
14:04:27  <andythenorth> fish cargo is a total winner in FIRS now
14:04:37  <andythenorth> barely any infrastructure needed
14:04:37  <blathijs> but I guess such a number gets complicated when branching and merging
14:04:39  <andythenorth> high paying
14:05:16  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
14:05:16  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 14 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <frosch123> will take a look the groundsprite case later
14:05:47  <planetmaker> blathijs, but it counts things from the first revision onward. But having double, tripple or whatever version numbers would be quite bad
14:06:07  <planetmaker> I could after all merge a number of (previously) independent projects - what then?
14:06:27  <Belugas> hello
14:06:32  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
14:07:06  <Belugas> mister bright planetmaker!
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14:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> merging branches takes the maximum their respective "sequential commit numbers", and adds 1
14:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i see no immediate problem with that
15:03:30  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but with hg I can also merge two unreleated repositories. As such I'd get n + m + 1 as the new revision number; thus one repo would need to be re-numbered.
15:04:04  <planetmaker> like, for example, where the nforenum repository was merged into the grfcodec one.
15:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what would make pulling from a new repo different from just creating a new branch?
15:06:51  <planetmaker> the lack of heredity
15:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so both can start counting at 0... i don't see the problem...
15:09:17  <planetmaker> and the whole point was: having a revision number twice is probably not a good idea. Thus one of those would need re-numbering upon a merge
15:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and i said, it wouldn't need renumbering...
15:11:19  <planetmaker> if you accept double revision numbers
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15:17:24  <zydeco> ok, I managed to get CJK working on 10.4+
15:18:14  <zydeco> on 10.6+, the input window appears under the current field, on older versions it's global
15:25:02  <zydeco> oh, I must still test things with that evil backquote key
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16:13:58  * ZirconiumX is annoyed
16:14:21  <ZirconiumX> I still can't find LordAro
16:14:25  <ZirconiumX> @logs
16:14:25  <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX:
16:14:44  <zydeco> :o
16:19:55  <dihedral> @seen LordAro
16:19:55  <DorpsGek> dihedral: LordAro was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <LordAro> hmmm:
16:20:07  <dihedral> what's wrong with you? cant he take a break?
16:20:14  <dihedral> :-P
16:20:47  <ZirconiumX> that's almost 2 weeks since I've last seen him
16:21:03  <ZirconiumX> a very long break at that
16:21:08  <planetmaker> I have _seen_ only a few people which lurk in this channel ;-)
16:21:27  <Terkhen> he's always active at the forums
16:21:29  <ZirconiumX> s/seen/talked
16:21:46  <planetmaker> and if I want to get hold of a person urgently who is not here... I write a forum mail or e-mail.
16:21:56  <ZirconiumX> happy now?
16:22:24  <planetmaker> sorry, no. I'd be happy, if I had these exams already off my desk
16:22:51  * ZirconiumX moves the exams off the desk
16:23:01  * ZirconiumX puts them on the floor
16:23:06  <SmatZ> :)
16:23:07  <ZirconiumX> happy now?
16:23:09  <planetmaker> hmpf ;-)
16:23:09  <__ln__> tilt the table to 45 degrees for a while
16:23:26  <planetmaker> __ln__, that'd interrupt communications probably quite hard ;-)
16:23:38  <planetmaker> though... computer is on other desk :-P
16:23:52  * ZirconiumX turns __ln__'s table 45 degrees
16:25:33  * ZirconiumX has a unique service, for making people laugh
16:26:07  <dihedral> depends around which axis you want to turn the table :-P
16:26:54  <ZirconiumX> turns table 45degrees to the X, 45 degrees to the Y, 45 degrees to the Z
16:27:08  <ZirconiumX> 45 degrees truthwise
16:27:52  * dihedral tries to picture .....
16:29:28  <ZirconiumX> dihedral probably fails
16:33:56  * Belugas loves cryptic error messages : "Exception : The I/O operation has been aborted because of either a thread exit or an application request."
16:34:09  <Belugas> good luck finding who what where or when
16:34:19  <peter1138> i like "An error occurred: Success"
16:34:50  <ZirconiumX> mkdir yellow_pages; cat yellow_pages
16:35:04  <ZirconiumX> yellow_pages: Is a directory
16:35:59  <fonsinchen> Well, that's what the cat tells you about yellow pages. What's the problem? ;)
16:38:39  <ZirconiumX> cat "can of food"
16:38:48  <ZirconiumX> cat: cannot open can of food
16:38:56  <ZirconiumX> the cat must be hungry then
16:39:31  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r22137 /trunk/config.lib: -Codechange: enable -Wnon-virtual-dtor for all GCC versions
16:40:01  <ZirconiumX>
16:40:14  <ZirconiumX> Wcast-spell
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16:54:36  <Belugas> hehe :)
16:54:46  <SmatZ> :-D
16:54:58  <ZirconiumX> C+-
16:55:10  <ZirconiumX> (Pronounced C more or less)
16:55:17  <ZirconiumX>
16:57:26  * zydeco likes #pragma dwim
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17:05:39  <ZirconiumX> this would make UNIX interesting
17:05:41  <ZirconiumX>
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17:45:09  <rane> ehh two "bumps" on mainline and i am getting jams entire game
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17:46:55  <planetmaker> use realistic acceleration
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17:50:53  <rane> is there any good site with fairly fresh savegames?
17:51:04  <rane> i feel my ttd kungfu is gone and i'd like to refresh it somehow
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17:52:08  <rane> for example for the love of god i can't figure out how long my trains should be:-)
17:52:51  <rane> i remember building 6 tiles long when i last played but that doesn't work now at all, they wait ages for pickup and businesses close down because deliveries are twice a year only
17:54:04  <Ammler> rane: use timetable instead full load
17:54:34  <Ammler> if the 2nd train arrives, let the 1st one go, also if not completely full
17:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you start out with small trains, and make them bigger as the industries grow
18:01:20  <rane> i'll try that
18:01:39  <rane> without timetables i typically can't go beyond 80% delivered and that doesn't encourage growth at all
18:01:56  <rane> final thing i struggle with, i have no idea how to organize priority for mainline with path signals
18:02:12  <rane> only way i can figure is trying to let mainline train reserve more track prior to crossing
18:02:37  <rane> but that ruins my signal every 2 tiles rule and trains behind prioritised train start stopping causing even more trouble
18:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> afair you just need above 67% for increased growth chance
18:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> path signals don't really have a way of doing priorities
18:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe check this out:
18:05:39  <rane> there could be "priority" variants for normal signals
18:05:50  <rane> as a feature
18:12:53  *** v3rb0 [~v3rb0@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:14:17  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22138 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: skipping only the invalid part of an action14 failed, the rest of the action was skipped instead
18:14:32  <rane> :-) it's still developed!
18:14:37  <ZirconiumX> Might as well face it you're addicted to vi!
18:14:54  <ZirconiumX>
18:15:47  <rane> "You won't look at emacs, no you'd just rather die"
18:15:49  <rane> totally agree
18:22:04  <ZirconiumX> Where is nano and ed placed then?
18:26:20  <rane> wow realistic acceleration is awesome
18:28:00  <rane> but i need to rebuild crossings to avoid double 45s :-)
18:29:32  <supermop> its worth it
18:32:49  <Ammler> well, double 45s is also realistic, trains do slow down on short curves
18:34:19  <rane> i'd expect that yes
18:34:34  <rane> when i move to timetables, i should stop using "wait for full", right?
18:37:20  <supermop> yeah
18:37:46  <supermop> although you might want to when you are testing out a route
18:38:09  <supermop> to get a rough idea how long a full load takes for a particular train
18:38:39  <planetmaker> if there's enough cargo waiting it'll load full anyway
18:39:00  <supermop> I usually spend about 1 game year on a new route figuring out the optimal timetable
18:39:49  <supermop> occasionally it has taken much loger
18:40:17  <rane> game goes so fast
18:40:42  <planetmaker> doesn't really matter. you can play endlessly
18:41:04  <supermop> on one line (before the departure board patch existed),
18:42:23  <rane> what's departure board patch?
18:42:34  <rane> is that where "leave when another train arrives" is?
18:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no, has nothing to do with each other
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18:43:52  <supermop> i had a line i started planning in the 60s
18:44:20  <supermop> double track, 5 stations about equally spaced, not too far apart
18:44:57  <supermop> and then a 6th station much further away
18:45:26  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22139 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
18:45:26  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:26  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
18:45:26  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frisian - 42 changes by Taeke
18:45:26  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: slovenian - 30 changes by
18:45:26  <supermop> most trains terminated at station 5, but every 3rd train continued to 6
18:45:44  <supermop> where it would lay up after un loading
18:45:51  <supermop> on a side track,
18:46:06  <supermop> then return to 6 to load after the next train unloaded
18:46:28  <supermop> about 3 month overall cycle in the timetables in game
18:47:12  <supermop> started operation in the 70s with manley morell dmus, had to upgrade to dash dmus in the middle of planning
18:47:25  <supermop> eventually got it all sorted aroung 2020
18:48:17  <supermop> but was like the satisfaction of watching a mechanical clock when it was all done
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18:50:37  <rane> where's the trigger to leave when a new train of same schedule arrives?
18:51:02  <supermop> there is none
18:51:10  <supermop> you just have to figure it out
18:51:26  <rane> oh
18:51:29  <rane> darn.
18:51:38  <rane> but first traffic jam and it all is ruined
18:51:59  <supermop> at least i am not away of any
18:51:59  <rane> because i need to launch them at specific times so they don't bunch together
18:52:04  <supermop> yeah
18:52:15  <supermop> you can do that with a very specific timetable
18:52:53  <rane> i have a lot of random traffic dumped into one 2+2 line that takes everything everywhere
18:58:08  <supermop> one approach would be to use one track in each direction just for timetabled traffic
18:58:31  <supermop> so that you do not have to try to schedule everything all at once
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18:59:30  <rane> and it really works better than "wait for full"?
19:01:12  <supermop> depends, there is a huge commitment you have to put in
19:01:49  <supermop> but i have found that you need less 'bandwith' on your lines if they are well timetabled
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19:13:55  <rane> i don't think i will be able to make it perfect but i plan using it more now
19:14:06  <rane> especially that jams on my "bumps" are gone with new accel. model
19:14:35  <supermop> I find it fun in itself
19:14:59  <rane> lots of micro:-\
19:15:29  <supermop> often in games, there is no real challenge to make money, but as your network grows, optimizing it gets more difficult
19:17:23  <rane> indeed
19:17:28  <rane> i fail terribly at optimization
19:19:08  <Alberth> so OpenTTD seems like a good challenge to you then ;)
19:20:40  <rane> :-)
19:21:03  <rane> my junctions look like a bowl of spaghetti half-eaten by two pitbulls
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19:24:11  <SmatZ> hehe, AD to "make your computer faster in 2 minutes!" at tt-forums :p
19:24:37  <SmatZ> hmm I have to download some exe...
19:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> don't worry... when did something bad ever happen from downloading an exe
19:26:14  <SmatZ> hmm it doesn't run under wine :/
19:26:16  <SmatZ> hehe :)
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19:28:40  <dihedral> SmatZ, :-)
19:29:30  <SmatZ> hello dih :)
19:29:38  <dihedral> hey ho :-)
19:31:18  <Alberth> rane: but those are much more fun to make
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19:32:43  <zydeco> there, I put my patch on
19:32:46  <zydeco> with screenshots :)
19:32:49  <rane> i have like half clover leaves with two extra tracks wrapped on the outside of everything and now due to realistic acceleration i extended clover leave exits even further to avoid 2x 45 turns and then added some extra tracks beyond those extended exits
19:33:00  <rane> it's kind of amusing how poorly it looks
19:33:03  <rane> and how well it works
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19:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "Dieses Video ist in deinem Land nicht verfÃŒgbar."
19:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> go fuck yourselves!
19:36:09  <rane> foxy proxy!
19:37:04  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: torrentz :-)
19:39:03  <rane> or get a vpn
19:39:31  <rane> it's a duty to get around their silly restrictions, show them they can't stop the internet;-)
19:40:16  <dihedral> zydeco, your patch should perhaps also take care of the requirements?
19:40:23  <dihedral> i.e. add the notice to some txt file?
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19:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> for proper timetabling it would be immensely useful to know the figures like "x km/h equals y tiles per {day|100 ticks}"
19:43:50  <rane> i used autofill + 20 days to account for potential breakdowns
19:44:08  <rane> which by the way are irritating as hell
19:45:20  * Alberth buys Eddi approx 2000 tiles straight track
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19:54:30  <gerard> OpenTTD version 1.0.5 Win7 64bit, how can I enable tooltips on hover?
19:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean they are static values throughout the game, they could be documented somewhere
19:54:44  <gerard> right clicking feels a bit weird
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19:54:48  <Terkhen> gerard: you can't, that feature is only present in 1.1.0
19:55:51  <gerard> ah ok, I'll switch to testing then
19:57:57  <gerard> ok, seems to work, thanks
19:58:20  <gerard> 1s is still a bit too long I think though
19:58:31  <gerard> would be nice to also have the choice for 0 and 0.5 s
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20:15:23  <zydeco> why does GHK_CRASH exist?
20:16:04  <zydeco> oh, it only exists in debug
20:18:16  <zydeco> it was interfering with entering text using unicode hex input
20:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> HAHAHA :p
20:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sorry. but that really is funny :)
20:25:42  <zydeco> but who would ever want such a hotkey_
20:25:54  *** Macha [~Macha@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:31:30  <Terkhen> heh :D
20:32:07  <Terkhen> new answer to all questions: "to do X, press ALT+0"
20:32:32  <zydeco> but it's only active in debug builds
20:32:40  <Terkhen> :)
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20:39:54  <Ammler> what is the difference to the money cheat?
20:44:05  <glx> not the same hotkey
20:45:25  <rane> what kind of maps do you play single player?
20:45:41  <rane> 128x512 is the most popular setting?
20:45:52  <V453000> 512*512 is best imo
20:46:01  <rane> it's gigantic
20:46:08  <rane> it's 2000s before i connect coal:-|
20:46:12  <Markk> I usually play on 1024x2048 or 2048x2048
20:46:20  <rane> wow
20:46:31  <supermop> 64x64 can be very fun too
20:46:36  <Markk> Yep
20:46:37  <Markk> :)
20:46:52  <rane> got saves? ;-)
20:47:08  <Markk> Not on this unit.
20:47:11  <rane> there's 800 coal mines on 2048^2
20:48:02  <rane> 3 trains per each that's 2500 trains alone for coal
20:48:33  <rane> you connect all to one power station?
20:49:34  <rane> do you have buses in all 1000 towns? :-)
20:49:47  <rane> i have hard time imagining to play on such a scale
20:50:49  <Vikthor> that's why various daylenght patches exist
20:50:59  <rane> daylength patches?
20:51:12  <Alberth> rane:  <-- look here for such games
20:51:45  <Terkhen> ^ don't look too much at once there or you might get a headache :)
20:51:58  <rane> hah
20:51:59  <Vikthor> rane: patches that make one day last longer, slowing the date
20:52:06  <zydeco> lol
20:52:10  <rane> i'd want such a patch actually
20:52:10  <Vikthor> *slowing the change of game
20:52:21  <rane> time really flies here
20:52:34  <rane> and i don't want tgv too soon
20:52:47  <Terkhen> hmm... this reminds me I wanted to check one of those self regulating networks
20:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i've grown fond of daylength 8
20:55:39  <Terkhen> too complicated for me :P
20:56:02  <Vikthor> yeah, daylength 8 is nice
20:56:46  <Eddi|zuHause> for me it's the right balance for getting time to actually connect larger parts of the map, but still have some technological advancement
20:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, the original daylength is so tightly intertwined with the game mechanics, that no clean way to introduce daylength exists...
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21:03:29  <Zuu> The recent change of the opcodes budget has probably broken the break on log string feature.
21:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> how so?
21:07:05  <Zuu> Since break on log string does not work, and that change is the only one I have seen recently that could be the reason.
21:07:18  <Zuu> At least without taking a lookn in the code.
21:07:26  <Terkhen> does it work correctly in the revision before that?
21:07:41  <Zuu> Not sure, but it did work just a few days ago.
21:08:16  <Zuu> break on log string works such that whenever a log string matches it uses up all opcodes.
21:08:31  <Zuu> It is probably the formula there for how many opcodes to use that needs updating.
21:09:02  <Zuu> It resides in InvalidateData of ai debug window.
21:09:23  <Zuu> well, maybe not there, but the call that you can trace to find where it happens.
21:15:16  *** Xaroth [] has joined #openttd
21:16:05  <Zuu> Line 670 in ai_instance.cpp it is.
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21:17:20  <vb> hi
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21:17:32  <vb> how do i remove a wagon and not replace it with anything?
21:17:33  <Alberth> hi
21:17:57  <vb> i got lots of trains with caboose, which i don't need anymore
21:18:22  <Zuu> Find a NewGRF with a very short wagon to replace it with?
21:18:34  <Zuu> Or wait for consists to be implemented.
21:18:42  <vb> what?
21:19:22  <Zuu> A consist = a sequence of wagons
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21:19:48  <vb> uhm
21:19:49  <Zuu> Thus with consits + reworked autoreplace it will be possible to define changes from one consist to another.
21:20:08  <Zuu> But it is all just ideas so far.
21:20:10  <vb> is there no other possible way?
21:20:31  <frosch123> Zuu: it could as well be r22135
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21:21:03  <Zuu> If you know C++, you could maybe hack togeather something that removes wagons with zero capacity and no power when trains visit depots.
21:21:08  <frosch123> can you check which revision broke it?
21:21:26  <Zuu> Sure, I'm currently compiling last rev to debug it.
21:21:30  <Terkhen> vb: I'm afraid there is no easy way to do that
21:21:55  <Terkhen> I would just send them all to depot and buy new ones, it's probably faster than replacing them one by one
21:23:11  <rane> one thing i can't get around of
21:23:20  <rane> when i use path signals and there's a traffic jam somewhere
21:23:27  <rane> trains will flip around and travel wrong side
21:23:39  <rane> is there a setting to prevent them from ever turning around?
21:23:50  <rane> and just wait until i fix it?
21:25:33  <Vikthor> yes, in 1.1.0-RC1 there is, I believe, Under vehicles, trains.
21:29:45  <Ammler> vb, replace the engine with a double head and set "remove waggon", then replace the double head back to one head
21:30:00  <vb> what?
21:30:19  <vb> are you sure that's gonna work?
21:30:35  <Ammler> if you replace a engine with a longer (double), it will automatically remove the last waggon
21:30:46  <dihedral> visual basic?
21:30:52  <Ammler> so the train lenght keeps the same
21:31:35  <vb> hmm
21:32:03  <vb> i think i will just send to depot the trains that still have a caboose
21:33:01  <Ammler> hmm, actually not sure, if those would be determined as waggons :-/
21:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> one could almost think the internet has some kind of humor:
21:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: sure it doesn't remove the first wagon?
21:35:23  <Ammler> no :-)
21:35:38  <Ammler> (was just an idea)
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21:48:34  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22140 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix (r22135): I like the letter 'l' nevertheless. (Alberth)
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21:52:59  <Zuu> planetmaker: Hmm, that r22135 looks like it is.
21:53:37  <Zuu> Actually, for some log strings it does break, but not for others. Probably a result of the asyncronous execution.
21:53:55  <planetmaker> uhm, say what?
21:54:24  <Zuu> r22135: "When commands need to invalidate windows, process these events asynchronously before the next redraw."
21:54:55  <frosch123> Zuu: then add a "true" at the end of the right InvalidateWindowData :)
21:54:58  <Zuu> That smells like something that could affect the break on log featur.
21:55:28  <planetmaker> well, I see that, but miss the context you refer to :-) - probably something I said some time ago and forgot again ;-)
21:55:44  <Zuu> And hope that it does not reintroduce FS#4523 :-)
21:56:18  <Zuu> planetmaker: sorry it was frosch123 who said it :-)
21:56:32  <Zuu> 22:20 CET
21:56:38  <planetmaker> :-)
21:59:05  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
22:00:49  <frosch123> <- maybe that is enough
22:00:52  *** ar3k [] has joined #openttd
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22:05:10  <Zuu> I'll test it.
22:05:31  <Zuu> Lets hope I remember to reduce the map size this time :-)
22:07:33  *** ar3kaw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:08:06  <Wolf01> 'night
22:08:21  <Chaot_s> sleep well Wolf01
22:08:28  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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22:12:17  <Zuu> frosch123: I've tested that change with the exact same AI code and test case that fails on last nightly, and it solves this problem.
22:12:46  <frosch123> great :)
22:12:58  <Zuu> I've tried 2-3 other cases but running an AI in debug mode is a great pain :-)
22:13:14  <frosch123> i would not know how to test it :)
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22:14:42  *** yorick [~yorick@2002:4443:4c63::16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14:51  <Zuu> The OnInvalidate code in the AI debug window is fairly carefull with _current_company IIRC (it backs it up and restores it after executing its commands), so it should hopefully be safe.
22:14:55  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22141 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_log.cpp: -Fix (r22135): AI breakpoints were broken at this point. (thanks Zuu)
22:15:05  <Zuu> Thanks frosch123 :-)
22:15:36  <frosch123> Zuu: it does not matter as long as the invalidation is not called from a command
22:15:57  <Zuu> Okay
22:17:48  <frosch123> niight
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22:18:42  <Chaot_s> hmm are there more different versions of openttd arround? i have been searching for some tips and stuff for openttd, and i see a lot op people mentioning openttd 1.5. are they all wrong and refering to openttd 1.0.5 or...
22:23:54  <Zuu> 1.5 does not exist, they are just lazy.
22:25:00  <Zuu> There is 1.1-RC1 and last nightly build which are later versions that are available as pre-compiled builds.
22:25:22  <Chaot_s> that clears a lot :D
22:25:45  <Zuu> If you go to you see the last stable, testing and nightly version at the upper left of the website.
22:26:00  <Zuu> (In the download links)
22:26:21  <Chaot_s> it's not common to shorten version length's :D and indeed thats where i did see the 1.0.5 as the game mentions too :D
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22:27:06  <Zuu> If you want more computer readable version info you can visit this file/page: :-)
22:27:10  <Chaot_s> so it's them false shortning the version string :D
22:27:16  <Zuu> Yep
22:27:43  <Zuu> You bet there were plennty of people that skipped to write the leading "0." part of the version string before 1.0 was released.
22:28:31  <Chaot_s> lol :D that might have had some funny resultings whe 1.0 was released.
22:29:02  <Chaot_s> yay! we have V1! ... some other person.. that was back in 199X
22:29:30  <SmatZ> rather 2004 :p
22:29:36  <Chaot_s> though thanks for clearing that up :D
22:29:44  <SmatZ> openttd isn't far that old
22:30:03  <Chaot_s> i didn't have a clue, the original game was.... somewhere 1999 or so i think :D
22:30:18  <Zuu> More info about different version shemas used in OpenTTD:
22:31:13  <Zuu> Though you could safely skip the part about MiniN as it is very old now.
22:31:24  <SmatZ> Transport Tycoon (TT) and Transport Tycoon Deluxe (TTD) are computer games developed by Chris Sawyer and published by MicroProse in 1994 (TT), and 1995 (TTD).
22:31:28  <SmatZ> ^^^
22:34:23  <Chaot_s> lol
22:34:48  <Chaot_s> somehow i'm thinking of jumping in to the source code to start understanding the signals :D
22:35:12  <Chaot_s> it somehow makes me think of a if / then / else idea....
22:35:19  <SmatZ> Chaot_s: I am sure that would take a lot of time to understand things from the sources
22:35:35  <Chaot_s> though everytime i think i know what they are doing, i mes up :D
22:35:44  <Chaot_s> *mess
22:35:51  <SmatZ> the basics are simple
22:36:14  <SmatZ> block signals, pre-signals, exit/combo-signals
22:36:18  <Chaot_s> entry exit, combo path oneway path.
22:36:33  <SmatZ> the other class is one/two-way PBS
22:37:28  <Chaot_s> the entry to exit (one way i do understand)
22:40:30  <Chaot_s> i just dont get the trick, it's something i'm missing somehow.
22:40:58  <Chaot_s> may i post a picture and ask some feedback ( i know lots of rubish stuff in there :D
22:44:01  <vb> i suppose so
22:48:13  <Terkhen> good night
22:48:24  <Chaot_s> sleep wel Terkhen
22:48:26  <Chaot_s>
22:48:45  <Chaot_s> for example that.
22:49:24  <Chaot_s> it does balance the trains of all availeble exit stations, and only feeds a train if can reach a free station.
22:50:04  <Chaot_s> though why do i need a two way combo signal in the midle to make more trains enter the station.
22:50:16  <Chaot_s> why is just one combo signal not working
22:50:43  <vb> use path signals
22:50:48  <Chaot_s> or am i just stupid :D and messed up thanks to asumptions made upon first time errors :D
22:50:51  <vb> allways red ones
22:51:17  <vb> and remove all of the lights infront of the station
22:51:20  <vb> except the last one
22:51:27  <vb> or so i would do
22:53:08  <rane> on 64x64 i will ever only have 1 business of each type?
22:53:17  <rane> can the close? can new ones open?
22:53:26  <rane> will there ever be 2nd city?
22:54:29  <Chaot_s> iirc you can enable some things in the cheat menu.
22:54:37  <Chaot_s> ctrl+alt+c
22:55:12  <vb> Chaot_s, i'l show you what i mean
22:55:26  <Chaot_s> okay thanx vb
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22:56:33  <vb> this one
22:56:40  <vb> that's how i would signal that station
22:56:48  <Chaot_s> rane : advanced settings, economie, industries, you can enable some settings to allow multiple industries of the same type to be build, also you can set an option to alow you to build things.
22:57:05  <vb> well, ofc, you can make the stations as long as you want
22:57:38  <vb> or it could be even easyer
22:58:36  <Chaot_s> hmm, i'm going to test that idea :D
22:58:41  <vb> i think you should put another path signal with a normal signal behind him, before those 3 to 3 splitting lanes
22:58:51  <vb> because otherwise it would take longer
22:59:19  <vb> i'l show you another pic
22:59:58  <Chaot_s> i'm building a somwhat stupid testcase... 120 trains station (stationsize is set to 64)
23:00:19  <SmatZ> 120 trains at once?
23:00:27  <vb>
23:00:34  <vb> this one is better i think
23:00:39  <vb>
23:00:43  <Chaot_s> and iwould like to make te signaling setup more advanced.
23:00:57  <Chaot_s> though somehow they have some bounce effect i can't understand.
23:00:58  <SmatZ> waiting space is always good
23:01:07  <SmatZ> <3 presignals :p
23:01:09  <vb> yup
23:01:20  <vb> the red only ones are presignals or pathsignals?
23:01:50  *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@] has joined #openttd
23:01:50  <Chaot_s> so there always needs to be a normal signal in front of thos to "split" the path to that destionation.
23:01:52  <SmatZ> red-only?
23:01:54  <vb> whatever they are called
23:01:55  <vb> yes
23:02:02  <SmatZ> PBS are (almost) always red
23:02:08  <vb> so it waits there
23:02:20  <Chaot_s> this will work if there isn't a longer train ariving.
23:02:21  <SmatZ> they get green only for a short moment when train s going to go through them
23:02:23  <vb> if the first signal doesn't permit him to advance
23:02:57  <Chaot_s> when the station is full (9 filled tracks) the train will que on the track with the shortest path...
23:03:01  <Chaot_s> or am i wrong?
23:03:08  <vb> probably
23:03:53  <vb> i think there also needs to be 3 normal signals(1/line) where the tracks split for first time
23:03:58  <Chaot_s> i could easely test that out on a trainstation with very long routes and about 200 trains sheduled to pass that station...
23:04:10  <vb> you should
23:04:12  <vb> test it out
23:04:46  <Chaot_s> hope i'm not going to need to start stop all trains after that :d
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23:06:43  <Chaot_s> most of the tests tries i did i ended up with a full station (slower exits than the feed could handle) and then a train that enters the first availeble track and waits til the train leaves.
23:07:07  <Chaot_s> jamming the other 15 tracks that get cleared after that train :D
23:07:25  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:08:41  <vb> so
23:08:43  <vb> not good?
23:08:46  <vb> show me a picture
23:10:09  <Chaot_s> i'm curently modifying the station,
23:10:27  <Chaot_s> that was what happens most of the times i tried using pats signals :D
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23:19:35  <DanMacK> Hey all
23:24:28  <supermop> hello
23:24:57  <vb> good night mates
23:25:12  *** vb [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
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23:26:13  <Chaot_s> need to go to. phone call bye!
23:26:15  <Chaot_s> sorry :D
23:26:21  <SmatZ> bye Chaot_s
23:26:26  *** Chaot_s is now known as chaot_s_afk
23:26:31  <SmatZ> enjoy your call
23:26:38  <chaot_s_afk> mot happy with it
23:26:39  <SmatZ> chaot_s_afk: please don't use afk nicks
23:26:48  <chaot_s_afk> just go afk?
23:26:54  *** chaot_s_afk is now known as Chaot_s
23:26:59  <SmatZ> /away phone is fine
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