Log for #openttd on 2nd May 2011:
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06:06:03  <andythenorth> hmm
06:06:12  <andythenorth> crash while using force-upgrade button in depot
06:06:30  <andythenorth> I'm using trunk + YACD
06:06:40  <andythenorth> is a fs report valid if YACD is applied?
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06:12:33  <planetmaker> report it to the YACD thread. Good morning also
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07:04:25  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:06:37  <andythenorth> Terkhen: apparently you're not western european :P
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09:09:44  <Terkhen> hmm? why?
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09:12:22  <andythenorth>
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09:16:44  <Terkhen> that is a stupid classification
09:16:55  <andythenorth> he
09:19:05  <Terkhen> I live more at the west than all of the "western europe" in that map :)
09:20:17  <andythenorth> too many theatres
09:22:53  * andythenorth ponders trying to fix towns
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09:26:31  <Terkhen> town growth?
09:28:59  <andythenorth>
09:29:04  <andythenorth>
09:29:08  <andythenorth>
09:29:17  <Markk> heh
09:33:12  <Terkhen> I remember an issue like that, the cause was a houses NewGRF
09:33:21  <Terkhen> or does it happen without NewGRFs too?
09:33:44  <andythenorth> I don't use any house grfs
09:33:52  <andythenorth> I might have to write my own to fix towns
09:34:04  <andythenorth> default towns are just too weird for me
09:34:38  <Terkhen> opengfx+ houses? :P
09:38:24  <andythenorth> I'd need to reimplement default towns in newgrf basically
09:38:30  <andythenorth> I'd use base set graphics
09:38:37  <andythenorth> and the same rules for construction
09:38:53  <andythenorth> except to fix the bits that are broken
09:40:04  <andythenorth> I vastly prefer original town graphics to any others
09:40:16  <Terkhen> that's more or less what we had to do for opengfx+ industries
09:40:39  <andythenorth> it's an interesting approach
09:41:11  <andythenorth> it begs the question...why not just delete the original code for these things, and force them to be provided by newgrf
09:41:25  <andythenorth> the original code is lengthy and full of special cases
09:41:49  <andythenorth> lengthy is not bad
09:42:04  <Terkhen> I suppose that too many newgrfs rely on the default houses/industries/etc in one way or another
09:42:13  <andythenorth> probably :(
09:42:14  <andythenorth> I do
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10:36:45  <yorick> the convert signal button should reset when the gui is closed
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10:56:23  <yorick> the convert rail should be diagonal with ctrl :)
11:04:17  * andythenorth is far too addicted to YACD
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11:05:15  <peter1138> YACD is rather nice
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11:07:19  <planetmaker> seems there's a real yacd-mania
11:07:30  <planetmaker> (and yes, it's fun :-) )
11:09:35  <peter1138> i never did play with cargodist, mind, but i didn't like the idea ;p
11:12:56  * andythenorth will not be doing much newgrf for a few weeks
11:13:08  <andythenorth> except adding things to support YACD :P
11:13:30  * andythenorth is adding ships of various sizes, but not new graphics for them :P
11:13:52  * andythenorth has the luxury of ordering up new vehicles whenever they're needed :P
11:14:14  <peter1138> fish seems... unfinished ;P
11:14:36  <andythenorth> it is
11:14:46  <andythenorth> turns out there's a lot of types of boats in the world
11:14:51  <andythenorth> and they're the hardest game object to draw
11:17:49  * andythenorth thinks FISH might be done by version 3
11:18:58  <planetmaker> I really enjoy the weired names :-)
11:19:08  <planetmaker> well, not so weired, but still
11:19:23  <planetmaker> In my yacd game I couldn't live without those ships. All that oil...
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11:21:36  <andythenorth> have you figured out the naming schema? :)
11:22:10  <planetmaker> I didn't try to. But sure enough the different types have different origins
11:22:23  <planetmaker> so much is easily obvious
11:22:38  <planetmaker> and that's important ;-)
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11:22:53  <peter1138> what's the obsession with 1870? :p
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11:28:42  <andythenorth> might as well tell just one lie, instead of lots
11:28:50  <andythenorth> and I tend to start my games around 1870
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11:32:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the names are from shipping areas
11:33:08  <andythenorth>
11:33:24  <andythenorth> some are mediteranean
11:33:29  <andythenorth> some are canadian
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11:39:23  <Ammler> andythenorth: yacd is just a cargo patch with tons of new cargos ;-)
11:40:07  <andythenorth> perhaps
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11:58:27  <dihedral> oi
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12:00:40  <anujmore> Hello guys. I cannot figure out what to do with produced goods :/ The things that come out. From a sawmill for example
12:00:53  <andythenorth> take them to a town
12:01:12  <anujmore> Any town? Or does consumption level matter?
12:01:31  <andythenorth> any that accepts goods
12:01:41  <anujmore> Ok andythenorth :)
12:01:51  <Terkhen> check if the station would accept goods first, only towns with certain buildings (more common in big towns) accept goods
12:01:59  <andythenorth> use the 'build station' to test it
12:02:07  <andythenorth> hover over a town and see if goods are accepted
12:02:17  <andythenorth> or use the ? tool to find out which buildings accept goods
12:02:23  <anujmore> andythenorth: I know that :P
12:02:35  <andythenorth> ok great ;)
12:03:04  <anujmore> Also my Narborough woods has lots of woods available, but Narborough valley (which is at same distance from the forest) doesn't have as much (Woods is a truck station and valley is a train station)
12:03:24  <anujmore> I thought I could use the speed and capacity of trains to transport woods at once, but now :(
12:05:15  <Yexo> anujmore: it depends on the station rating for woods, see
12:06:05  <anujmore> Yexo: That page is godsent!
12:06:26  <k-man> is there a newgraf that makes signals easier to see?
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12:08:59  <TrueBrain> GENERAL NOTICE: all related certificates are updated
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12:19:52  <yorick> is there a newgrf that makes the difference between red and green signals easier to see for the colourblind?
12:21:22  <andythenorth> one was being worked on
12:21:29  <andythenorth> but there were some falling-outs
12:21:34  <andythenorth> with the developer
12:23:25  <planetmaker> yorick, that's indeed possibly a good idea. It needs graphics. Care to provide?
12:23:45  <planetmaker> I would even care to write the grf
12:24:10  <planetmaker> though that's a dead easy newgrf, too
12:24:28  <yorick> planetmaker: you could make a static grf that replaces the digital signals with semaphores
12:24:35  <yorick> or make them yellow and blue :P
12:24:43  <planetmaker> the graphics work is the difficult one, to make it nice and distinguishable
12:24:54  <planetmaker> yorick, yes, it will need to be a NewGRF which can be statically loaded
12:25:11  <planetmaker> otherwise it's not of much point to provide
12:26:50  <planetmaker> changing to semaphores might actually work also without graphics work
12:27:17  <planetmaker> Though I'd not like to loose the option to distinguish them - which in turn means 'graphics work required'
12:28:02  <yorick> maybe make them black-white
12:28:29  <planetmaker> I'm asking you ;-)
12:28:54  <anujmore> There's a train in my depot which is instructed to go to the station, but is not. Bug?
12:29:03  <planetmaker> missing signals?
12:29:54  <Yexo> anujmore: it's far more likely to be an error in your track layout or signals, but upload your savegame somewhere to be sure
12:30:38  <anujmore> Yexo: I found it. Track design error (Not an  error exactly(
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12:39:10  <ZirconiumX> hello all
12:39:48  <ZirconiumX> s/all/all who aren't all
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12:44:07  <yorick> anyone know of red-blue colorblindness?
12:44:24  <ZirconiumX> yes - why?
12:44:50  <yorick> because we need signals that are colorblind-safe
12:45:31  <ZirconiumX> maybe an advanced setting?
12:45:41  <yorick> thinking of a static grf
12:45:57  <yorick> but it needs new graphics
12:52:27  <Terkhen> IMO the best would be something big and not color based; not only for colorblindness but also for making them easier to check
12:53:54  <Yexo> but the colors make them easy to check
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12:54:14  <planetmaker> big and colourful are not mutually exclusive ;-)
12:54:31  <Terkhen> I find the signals not based on colours easier to check myself :)
12:55:14  * planetmaker never uses semaphore signals
12:55:26  <Yexo> I don't use those either
12:55:53  <Terkhen> I only use them
12:57:05  <yorick> they confuse me
12:57:20  * yorick can't remember when they're red
12:58:25  <ZirconiumX> when they're down
12:58:39  <ZirconiumX> when they're up it means go
12:58:43  <yorick> they go left-right
12:58:51  <ZirconiumX> ...I think
12:59:04  <ZirconiumX> Right
12:59:10  <ZirconiumX> left is go
12:59:15  <ZirconiumX> right is stop
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13:00:05  <yorick> should the build signal type also be reset?
13:00:23  <yorick> planetmaker: ^
13:00:38  <planetmaker> no
13:00:50  <planetmaker> I'd find it irritating
13:01:10  <planetmaker> as I usually build always the same type.
13:01:26  <yorick> you always build entry signals?
13:01:31  <planetmaker> yes :-P
13:01:39  <yorick> if they want to set a default signal type they can do so in the patch options
13:02:01  <planetmaker> but reset means: it gets reset to, say, block signals, when I'm building a piece of tracks where it needs path signals. or vice versa
13:02:12  <planetmaker> that's already set there
13:02:20  <Terkhen> the problem comes when I prefer one kind of signals and my partner prefers another
13:02:34  <planetmaker> Terkhen, static newgrfs;-)
13:02:43  <Terkhen> I have never used them
13:02:50  <planetmaker> remap all -> semaphore or remap all -> light
13:03:04  <planetmaker> but none such exists afaik
13:03:14  <Terkhen> can you define a grf as static somehow, or do you need to load it as static?
13:03:14  <planetmaker> and it might not be the best solution out there
13:03:18  <anujmore> Something's really wrong with one of the local authorities.
13:03:28  <yorick>
13:03:31  <planetmaker> Terkhen, you need to edit your cfg
13:04:33  <Terkhen> hmm... it is not a great solution then
13:04:50  <yorick> Terkhen: bug alberth to make a gui
13:05:19  <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes... it needs GUI support
13:05:37  <Terkhen> for marking a newgrf as static?
13:05:53  <planetmaker> yes. And possibly also indicating which newgrf can be set as static in the first place
13:05:55  <planetmaker> Not many can
13:06:01  <Terkhen> I don't think a static newgrf is the best solution for signals
13:06:12  <planetmaker> Neither do I
13:06:43  <planetmaker> an 3-state UI switch which remaps the sprites accordingly would probably be better
13:06:44  <Terkhen> it should be transparent to the user: if you select "I only want to use this type", the signal GUI only shows that type for building and only shows that type as built ingame
13:06:49  <planetmaker> in the adv. settings under GUI
13:06:58  <Terkhen> if you select both types, it would look as it does now
13:07:03  <yorick> planetmaker: // need feedback :)
13:07:19  <planetmaker> agreed, Terkhen
13:07:47  <Belugas> hello
13:07:54  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
13:08:18  <yorick> hello Belugas
13:08:41  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
13:08:45  <planetmaker> yorick, I can't test now
13:08:48  <Belugas> hello you all :)
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13:10:12  <yorick> ok
13:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> * andythenorth is adding ships of various sizes, but not new graphics for them :P <-- yes, i noticed that problem as well, it's hard to find a ship size that matches exactly my train size for transfer-purposes. non-grf solutions would be a "load at least 80%" order or a "put the train on the ship" order
13:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the worst design idea about signals was to make them depend on the road side...
13:19:44  <Terkhen> is that a game setting, not an user setting?
13:20:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a GUI setting, but when the road side is "left", changing it does not do anything
13:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the setting is "always left" or "same as road side"
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13:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> which is just stupid
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13:21:35  <Yexo> not stupid, just missing the value "always right"
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13:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it should have been "always left" or "always right" from the start.
13:23:10  <Yexo> what is wrong with "same as road side"? it might fit certain game-themes, and after all the value is not stored in savegames
13:23:18  <Eddi|zuHause> rail side and road side are not closely connected...
13:23:43  <Yexo> I didn't know that
13:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. in france, trains drive on the left, but cars on the right
13:24:26  <Eddi|zuHause> except in the formerly german parts of france
13:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> in austria it's really screwed up...
13:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> in some areas trains drive on left, and in others they drive on right
13:28:23  <Noldo_> does it matter, as long as they are on the tracks they are ment to be?
13:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo_: it has certain implications on engine construction and signal placement
13:30:03  <planetmaker> engine construction?
13:30:32  <Yexo> not in-game
13:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's better when the train driver sits on the same side as the signals along the track are. with steam engines it's problematic as a right-handed fireman would always stand on the left side, so it becomes fairly crowded when the train driver also has to be on the left side to see the signals
13:32:33  <planetmaker> yes, of course. I thought of ingame
13:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that's (supposedly) the original reason why germany switched to right side
13:33:16  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. in france, trains drive on the left, but cars on the right <-- but metro drives on the right :)
13:34:11  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: i guess that has some advantages with passenger flow in stations ;)
13:34:27  <glx> no it was to prevent trains to go on metro tracks
13:34:43  <planetmaker> how that?
13:34:53  <planetmaker> wouldn't it just make collisions more likely? ;-)
13:34:55  <glx> signals position
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13:45:19  * ZirconiumX thinks KenjiE20 has a bad connection
13:45:35  <KenjiE20> nah
13:45:39  <KenjiE20> >_>
13:47:01  <Mazur> Bin Laden dead.  Who'd expected that.
13:48:45  <anujmore> Mazur: A couple of days ago there was a statement by Al-Queda that they would explode some nuclear weapons in Europe if anything happened to Laden.
13:48:49  <anujmore> Coincidence?
13:48:57  <Mazur> "Funny" to hear all those really stoopid comments followging the news.
13:49:15  <Mazur> anujmore, maybe they had an inkling.
13:49:46  * ZirconiumX Mazur: Like every high priority target, I expected him to die sooner or later
13:50:00  <ZirconiumX> woops
13:50:17  <anujmore> Maybe they had. I read Gizmodo. Looks like CIA was really working on that mansion since quite some time.
13:50:45  <Mazur> But things like "this is not the end yet for the battle against terrorism." It's also not of a great influence on the next release of OpenTTD.  OIr hte colour of the sky.
13:51:03  <Mazur> Since August, I just heard.
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13:51:54  <ZirconiumX> KenjiE20: Are you doing that so that everyone knows when five minutes have passed?
13:52:01  <KenjiE20> no
13:52:12  <ZirconiumX> I swear you are
13:52:26  <KenjiE20> I would actually like to use my net >.>
13:52:49  <KenjiE20> ..but English suburban internets
13:53:35  <Mazur> Yeah, England, poor developing country that it is.
13:53:58  <ZirconiumX> We have 'superfast' broadband (20M(B/b))
13:54:05  <ZirconiumX> It doesn't feel like that
13:54:26  <KenjiE20> we get a max of 2.5Mbps apparently
13:54:27  <ZirconiumX> I could have a tenth of that - and it wouldn't feel any different
13:54:38  <KenjiE20> funny, I've never seen it last above 1 for any length of time
13:54:54  <ZirconiumX> says they were lying
13:54:57  <ZirconiumX> 16MB
13:55:14  <Yexo> getting 16 instead of 20 is not so bad
13:55:15  <KenjiE20> my current sync is 1241
13:55:16  <ZirconiumX> still - most people appear to use 2MB
13:55:18  <KenjiE20> kbps
13:55:47  <KenjiE20> darn those copper cable leaking my internets
13:55:54  <ZirconiumX> oh Fujitsu promise 1Gbps
13:56:06  <ZirconiumX> at a cost of £500,000
13:56:13  <ZirconiumX> to a small town
13:56:29  * ZirconiumX doesn't see the logic in that
13:56:48  <KenjiE20> there's a logic in telecoms?
13:57:18  <ZirconiumX> logic gates, yes
13:57:20  <ZirconiumX> not logic
13:57:29  <KenjiE20> well looks like I'm stable-ish now, my noise margin has raised from 2db to 12
13:58:51  * ZirconiumX uses fibre optics (apparently)
13:59:09  <KenjiE20> well lah de dah :p
13:59:43  * KenjiE20 might as well use PPPoPidgeon
14:01:06  <peter1138> risen?
14:01:48  * peter1138 pats his ~17Mbit
14:02:28  <ZirconiumX> You've got to question my sanity - I'm using code from TownCars *shock* *horror*
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14:33:29  <ZirconiumX> Hmm
14:33:38  <ZirconiumX>   local version = 0.7;
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14:34:39  <ZirconiumX> <error> [version] 0.6999999887907
14:34:49  <ZirconiumX> then it isn't 0.7
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14:38:41  <Yexo> ZirconiumX: welcome to how computers handle floating point values :)
14:39:12  <Terkhen> meh, gnome 3 looks quite strange
14:40:15  <ZirconiumX> Typical
14:40:34  <ZirconiumX> my ai is broken :(
14:41:04  <planetmaker> :-) Lovely FP precision
14:41:05  * ZirconiumX reaches for the pastebin
14:41:38  <ZirconiumX> Yexo & planetmaker: I updated it to become 0.7.1
14:41:51  <ZirconiumX> it's still 0.6999999887907
14:42:04  <Yexo> 0.7.1 isn't a valid value
14:42:14  <Yexo> where did you update what exactly? and how?
14:42:28  <ZirconiumX> my ai
14:42:38  <Yexo> where in your ai?
14:42:41  <planetmaker> that's marvelously precise ;-)
14:42:43  <Yexo> please use that pastebin
14:42:56  <ZirconiumX> I had a bug that caused it to skip quickly
14:43:03  <ZirconiumX> so I moved it back
14:43:11  <Yexo> skip _what_ quickly?
14:43:13  <ZirconiumX> which killed the ai
14:43:18  <Yexo> remember, we can't see what you see on your screen
14:43:27  <Yexo> you really have to provide more information than you do now
14:44:00  <planetmaker> so far I know "something is not working with your AI". Nothing more
14:44:20  <planetmaker> neither circumstances, nor where nor what was expected...
14:44:48  <planetmaker> least typ-able information is a bad approach when asking for help ;-)
14:44:53  <Yexo> we also now he is using a local variable called "version" and that he assigned the value 0.7 to it
14:44:57  <Yexo> not that that is any help ;)
14:45:21  <planetmaker> well, yes
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14:47:33  <ZirconiumX>
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14:48:09  <Yexo> ZirconiumX: that is no help either, what we actually need to see is your code
14:48:14  <Yexo> not the output of said code
14:48:39  <ZirconiumX>
14:48:41  <ZirconiumX> is code
14:49:50  <ZirconiumX> it gives an error of BuildRoute not existing
14:49:57  <Yexo> local version = 0.7.1; <- invalid code, if you only use it on line 14 you probably want: local version = "0.7.1";
14:50:00  <ZirconiumX> line 55
14:50:01  <Yexo> ie make it a string
14:50:14  <Yexo> line 55 in your paste is   AILog.Warning("Main Loop...iteration " + i + ".");
14:50:38  <ZirconiumX> that's what the AI debug gives
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14:51:45  <_Ben_> Hi
14:52:06  <planetmaker> hi _Ben_
14:52:22  <ZirconiumX> hello _Ben_
14:52:35  <_Ben_> Quick Question if anyone knows, can't find the answer.  Snowline heights - is it possible to change the snowline height on an exsisting game or scnario where the cfg file has no effect?
14:52:36  * ZirconiumX braces himself
14:52:46  <ZirconiumX> no
14:52:49  <ZirconiumX> NAFAIK
14:52:58  <planetmaker> _Ben_, not really
14:53:04  <Yexo> ZirconiumX: start using proper indentation and you'll notice an error
14:53:18  <planetmaker> Changing the NewGRF config might do that, but that might have other, far severe consequences
14:53:26  <Yexo> hint: the brace on line 87 does not close the opening brace on line 7
14:53:37  <planetmaker> oh joy of coding style :-)
14:53:50  <Yexo> and squirrel allowing functions within functions :p
14:54:07  <_Ben_> planetmaker and zirconiumX - cheers guys
14:54:19  <ZirconiumX> no problem
14:54:20  <_Ben_> pitty, I should have thourght about snowline before making a scenario
14:54:30  <Yexo> I think it is possible
14:54:37  <Yexo> you'll have to use the commandline though
14:54:48  <ZirconiumX> _Ben_:We all make mistakes
14:55:08  <Terkhen> it is possible, you need to change the setting manually using the commandline
14:55:13  <Terkhen> I don't remember its name, though
14:55:14  <planetmaker> that works?
14:55:17  <Terkhen> yes
14:55:18  <Yexo> _Ben_: try "set snow_line 88" in the console
14:55:24  <planetmaker> cool, never tried it, I guess :-)
14:55:27  <Yexo> the value 88 has to be 8 times the tile height
14:55:36  <Yexo> so 88 means snow at height 11
14:55:44  <Yexo> 40 would be snow at height 5, etc.
14:56:18  <planetmaker> and this operation is 100% safe as opposed to newgrf changes ;-)
14:56:31  <_Ben_> Yexo - genious, that works
14:56:34  <_Ben_> thanks man
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14:57:15  <Yexo> only risk is that a few houses above the new snowline might be without snow or houses under the snowline with snow, depending on how you change it
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14:57:30  <Yexo> but that should be easily remedied by removing those houses and growing the town again
14:57:52  <_Ben_> yeah I only have terrain and rivers so far, so that's not an issue
14:57:52  <planetmaker> that'll change with the passage of time ;-)
14:58:22  <planetmaker> what size is the scenario?
14:58:31  <_Ben_> 1024x1024
14:58:40  <planetmaker> I see :-)
14:58:47  <_Ben_> it's a scenario in the increased height level patch
14:58:58  <planetmaker> oh :-(
14:59:10  <_Ben_> taken...'some time' to do.  hopefully it'll be fun to play
14:59:20  <_Ben_> wonder if the 88-11 thing is the same
14:59:29  <planetmaker> you'll have to find out
14:59:49  <planetmaker> I recall that snowline might be one of the funky places for the height levels patch
15:00:28  <Yexo> if it is the same, the snowline will be limited to a maximum of 255 = 32 tiles
15:00:31  <planetmaker> hm... More height levels could probably be even implemented without all the mapgen changes...
15:00:34  <_Ben_> 88 is still 11
15:00:35  <Yexo> if it isn't some newgrfs might be broken
15:00:49  <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, it can
15:00:56  <planetmaker> rivers after all are not generated, either
15:01:02  <Yexo> one of the problems of that patch is that it isn't split up
15:01:07  <planetmaker> and still are part of the game and available for SE
15:01:19  <planetmaker> Yexo, I know. I tried to read it... it was... tiresome
15:01:23  <Terkhen> that's the biggest IMO
15:01:49  <_Ben_> ah, it does expose the bug whee the snowline height doesn't remove the original snowline (if you move it upwards) - I do have the gradual snowline grf.  Think I've read this bug report before
15:02:00  <planetmaker> too much focus on the mapgen stuff, too little on the other quirks. Like snow line
15:02:32  <Yexo> _Ben_: grf snowlines override the static setting, so if you have a snowline grf you'll have to change that one
15:02:44  <planetmaker> _Ben_, tiles will need a bit time to adjust to a new snowline height. Snow has to 'melt'
15:03:10  <ZirconiumX> planetmaker: or get used by small children
15:03:16  <planetmaker> like a few ingame days
15:08:51  <_Ben_> got it jusssst right, thanks for the help
15:12:07  <_Ben_> bye
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15:13:58  <ZirconiumX> Lets hope it worked
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15:41:02  * ZirconiumX mutters about too many bugs
15:42:01  <ZirconiumX> 0.7.5: AEBOF: An Empty Bottle Of Flyspray <------ about 7 bugs in the 0.7 series
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16:14:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22410 /trunk/src/ (51 files in 7 dirs): -Document: some more bits ;)
16:15:00  <Ammler> should make distclean not remove the openttd.grf?
16:15:47  <Rubidium> Ammler: why would it?
16:16:34  <Ammler> so it gets rebuild
16:16:48  <Rubidium> that's not what distclean is for
16:17:04  <Rubidium> distclean is, as per convention, for removing everything that was not distributed
16:17:28  <Rubidium> maintainer-clean *does* remove openttd.grf though
16:18:05  <Rubidium> as that, per convention, removes everything that can be regenerated
16:18:32  <Ammler> the issue is that you need to run configure to run that :-)
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16:19:24  <Rubidium> we're only following convention
16:19:38  <Ammler> yeah, no problem
16:19:56  <Ammler> openttd.grf is the only file, right?
16:20:08  <Ammler> well it is according to the makefile
16:20:41  <Rubidium> technically the .sq files are as well... but I can't be bothered about those
16:22:13  <Ammler> distclean and mrproper are the same now
16:22:24  <Ammler> that might have confused me
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16:23:27  <Ammler> I guess it isn't on opengfx
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16:27:40  <planetmaker> Ammler, you're looking for maintainer-clean
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16:36:01  <Ammler> yeah, it doesn't matter since you can't run make in openttd without configure
16:36:32  <Ammler> hmm
16:37:39  <Ammler> does it make sense to run "make maintainer-clean all" ?
16:38:30  <Ammler> doesn't work
16:38:58  <Ammler> so I assume, debian runs configure twice
16:39:58  <Ammler> or maybe mainter-clean should only delete the grf but not depend on distclean
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16:51:13  <Rubidium> Ammler: nope, then it'd horribly break conventions
16:54:19  <Ammler> ok, I don't see it called in rules, will that be called somehow automatically in backgroud?
16:54:40  <Rubidium> no, you have to call it
16:54:52  <Ammler> so you provide it but don't use it
16:55:06  <Rubidium> yes, like "all" is provided but not used
16:55:11  <Rubidium> or "clean"
16:55:28  <Ammler> ok, then it doesn't hurt, if we don't use it either :-)
16:56:58  <Ammler> hmm, openttd install does depend on all afaik
16:58:29  <Ammler> sounds wrong but well :-)
16:59:37  <Rubidium> well, then "install" is provided and not used
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17:00:13  <Ammler> no, you use install and it looks like you don't need to use all because install depends on it
17:00:37  <Ammler> that is a bit uncommon
17:01:07  <Ammler> as install is for root and all for the user
17:01:20  <Ammler> so it could happen, that you get root files in your user space
17:02:01  <Ammler> but the conventions might allow it, else you wouldn't do it :-P
17:03:08  <Rubidium>
17:03:33  <Rubidium> 'install' Compile the program [...]
17:03:50  <Rubidium> kinda sounds like the convention prescribes it
17:04:24  <Ammler> "f possible, write the install target rule so that it does not modify anything in the directory where the program was built, provided ‘make all’ has just been done. This is convenient for building the program under one user name and installing it under another. "
17:05:36  <Ammler> I
17:07:52  <peter1138> i hate build systems that compile shit during install, after successfully completing a  make all
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17:09:17  <Ammler> I guess, openttd doesn't
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17:10:01  <Ammler> and opengfx shouldn't anymore either
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17:15:37  <Ammler> Rubidium: maintainer-clean: "The reason we say “almost everything” is that running the command ‘make maintainer-clean’ should not delete ‘configure’"
17:16:13  <Ammler> hmm
17:16:18  <Ammler> forget it :-)
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17:19:02  <Wolf01> hello
17:19:38  <glx> <@peter1138> i hate build systems that compile shit during install, after successfully completing a  make all <-- dlltool base ?
17:19:54  <glx> or libtool
17:20:01  <glx> can't remember the name
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17:42:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22411 /trunk/src/ (34 files in 4 dirs): -Document: another bunch of bits
17:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22412 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt):
17:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 2 changes by 2rB
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17:48:36  <peter1138> "Another interesting thing would be the ability to turn off the grid. This wouldn't be too hard to do since it's just a visual change"
17:48:39  <peter1138> hehe
17:49:11  <ccfreak2k> RCT allowed it.
17:49:41  <Terkhen> if only it was just a visual change :)
17:50:14  <Rubidium> peter1138: raising the level of the UK by 1 meter isn't hard either, it's just a hell of a lot of trivial work
17:50:54  <glx> "it's just a visual change" for someone not knowing the source
17:51:00  <Terkhen> :P
17:51:27  <glx> btw it's easy to do with a newgrf
17:51:37  <Terkhen> yes, opengfx+ landscape does it
17:52:00  <Terkhen> but then all people connecting to a server are forced to play with the settings selected on it
17:52:18  <Ammler> isn't landscape static?
17:52:51  <glx> action A can be static IIRC
17:53:26  <Ammler> there is also a nogrid grf for the original users afaik
17:53:39  <Rubidium> "can be" being the important bit ;)
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18:04:41  <frosch123> why does everyone want to turn of the grid?
18:04:47  <frosch123> gridless landscape is just ugly...
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18:06:37  <andythenorth> evenings
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18:10:50  <andythenorth> brr
18:10:55  <andythenorth> YACD + FIRS is just insanely hard
18:11:02  <andythenorth> (with hilly and high costs)
18:12:03  <ZirconiumX> hello andythesouth
18:12:08  <ZirconiumX> :p
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18:25:14  <andythenorth> YACD might create much more use for small cheap switching engines
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18:25:25  <andythenorth> I need a lot of yard goats running out on switch jobs
18:25:40  <andythenorth> NARS 2 doesn't deliver much in that respect in 1917 :P
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18:28:35  <Terkhen> :)
18:29:18  <Terkhen> <--- I abandoned my YACD+FIRS game after running into this issue
18:29:41  <andythenorth> yup
18:29:47  <andythenorth> FIRS is not optimal for YACD
18:29:51  <andythenorth> it's ridiculously hard
18:32:30  <Ammler> with yacd, it would again make sense to have a limited firs with fewer cargoes
18:32:40  <andythenorth> yup
18:33:00  <andythenorth> the problem there is that there is no-one who wants to do that work :D
18:33:03  <andythenorth> right now
18:33:24  <Ammler> at least not with nfo
18:33:34  <andythenorth> well there's no other way :P
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18:36:02  <Ammler> and subcargos :-P
18:36:43  <andythenorth> subcargos suck
18:36:45  <andythenorth> they are stupid
18:36:52  <andythenorth> did I mention that before?
18:37:17  <Ammler> yeah, that is my ":-P" for
18:37:37  <andythenorth> hmm
18:37:51  <andythenorth> it's a shame auto-replace doesn't preserve the cargo subtype
18:38:04  <andythenorth> it makes industrial trams a bit crappy
18:38:10  <andythenorth> no point using auto-replace with them
18:38:12  <Ammler> I thought, subcargoes are a kind of "different livery" for same cargo
18:39:17  <Ammler> well, that is a bug
18:39:24  <andythenorth> it is, but I can't fix it
18:39:45  <andythenorth> there is also a crash when using auto-replace with articulated RVs that are in a group
18:39:55  <andythenorth> if the force-upgrade button is used
18:40:01  <andythenorth> can anyone else reproduce that?
18:46:12  <andythenorth> michi_cc: changing the engine on a train appears to break the YACD links
18:46:30  <andythenorth> I have to force the engine to run the route to re-establish the link
18:46:49  <andythenorth> probably makes sense in the implementation, but baffled me ;)
18:47:41  <michi_cc> It shouldn't. Autoreplace/renew or manual change in a depot?
18:47:53  <andythenorth> manual change
18:47:55  <andythenorth> YACD 1.1
18:48:20  <andythenorth> this is at station B in an A>B>C setup
18:48:32  <andythenorth> the train waits, the cargo waits, the train doesn't load cargo
18:48:51  <andythenorth> other vehicles do appear to continue unloading cargo
18:49:03  <andythenorth> i.e. unload cargo headed for C
19:01:38  <michi_cc> Is that the only vehicle on the route or are the orders shared?
19:02:47  <andythenorth> only vehicle on the route
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19:59:15  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Found it, problem is that the order backup and restore process can assign new order indexes, so the route graph has to be updated with the new order indexes. Fix in the next release.
19:59:22  <andythenorth> ok thanks
19:59:25  <andythenorth> :)
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20:08:48  <gartral> is there a seperate channel for the 32bpp/ez patch/build?
20:09:49  <planetmaker> not that I know
20:10:32  <gartral> is it supported here?
20:10:47  <planetmaker> well, it's supported by its authors supposedly
20:11:16  <planetmaker> they're sometimes here
20:12:37  <gartral> I see. Ok. there's a bug in the source that prevents it from loading tar-packed GRFs. i'll report it on the tracker
20:14:33  <frosch123> tracker? don't report it to :)
20:14:37  <frosch123> it's not supported there
20:14:58  <gartral> i meant in the openttdcoop tracker (if they have one)
20:15:11  <frosch123> oh, right, they likely actually have
20:16:15  <gartral> heh, and thanks for answering my question
20:17:49  <planetmaker> yes, reporting it in the 32bpp ez tracker is a good choice
20:21:36  <k-man> I think I turned off the little indicator that shows the % as a train loads or unloads
20:21:40  <k-man> is that possible?
20:23:39  <planetmaker> yes
20:23:46  <planetmaker> ctrl+x. right most button
20:25:53  <k-man> ah, thanks
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20:26:12  <k-man> is there a way to make the font bigger in the map?
20:26:52  <k-man> ie, the industries list in the map is too small for my eyes to read
20:27:38  <gartral> not easily. but i have the exact same problem
20:28:45  <Terkhen> k-man: you need to edit your openttd.cfg
20:29:20  <Terkhen> there is a patch in development for changing the fonts ingame too
20:31:14  <k-man> Terkhen, I did look in openttd.cfg and changed small_size = 8
20:31:24  <k-man> but that did not seem to be the right setting
20:31:33  <Terkhen> k-man: you will also need to set small_font to a valid font in your computer
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20:31:41  <k-man> ah...
20:31:43  <k-man> I see
20:31:43  <Terkhen> I use Arial
20:31:57  <Terkhen> there are other fonts that might look better but I did not bother on testing much
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20:34:48  <k-man> great, thanks Terkhen
20:35:44  <Terkhen> you are welcome
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20:43:03  <frosch123> night
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21:00:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22413 /trunk/src/ (15 files): -Document: even more stuff
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21:24:45  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:40:10  <Terkhen> good night
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22:33:35  <k-man> how do you make the exit of a station efficient? is there an example somewhere?
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22:41:57  <peter1138> oh
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22:42:14  <peter1138> so, er, how do you start a content_downloaded scenario on a dedicated server?
22:42:59  <DabuYu> k-man: see the wiki here:
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22:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think starting scenarios on server is seriously underdeveloped
22:53:33  <peter1138> seriously is
22:53:47  <peter1138> also i'm getting warnings about no data from the server for x seconds :S
22:54:00  <peter1138> i mean, i know, it's a 2048x2048 map, but still :S
22:55:14  <peter1138> oh wait
22:55:17  <peter1138> that's autosave, right
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23:24:33  <k-man> so normal signals are fine for station exits?
23:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i exclusively use path signals, but i'm probably not building anything close to what you will be requesting...
23:28:17  <k-man> maybe I don't understand path signals properly but I found they did not perform as well as pre signals
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