Log for #openttd on 4th May 2011:
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01:08:39  <Wolf01> 'night
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02:33:30  <ImNotDrunk> hello?
02:33:44  <ImNotDrunk> where can i d/l the installer frmo? site isnt working
02:34:14  <ImNotDrunk> anyone here?
02:36:19  <glx>
02:36:52  <glx> us works too
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02:55:05  <ImNotDrunk> so i downloaded the installer and it says that it is unable to d/l the graphics and sound etc... what files should i d/l from that link you sent me?
03:11:30  <ImNotDrunk> anyone here?
03:12:04  <ImNotDrunk> where can i get a hold of the graphics sounds and music files since the website is down and the installer file tries to d/l from the wrbsite as well
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04:59:50  <k-man> ImNotDrunk, did you get it working?
05:02:13  <Rubidium> I'd say: retry ;)
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06:39:54  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:51:26  <andythenorth> morening
07:51:35  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
07:51:40  * andythenorth ponders
07:51:53  <andythenorth> might be a good idea to remove supplies from FIRS for YACD
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08:08:16  <Terkhen> IIRC you had plans for a "simplified" economy without supplies already
08:08:25  <Terkhen> oh, he's gone :)
08:11:04  <planetmaker> moin
08:11:32  <Terkhen> hi planetmaker
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08:45:34  <Wolf01> hello
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09:19:01  *** Netsplit <-> quits: SirSquidness, DabuYu, Eddi|zuHause, @Belugas, @orudge, Juo, k-man, sigue, dotwaffle, tokai|mdlx,  (+21 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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09:28:28  <dihedral> oi
09:29:01  <yorick> hello dih
09:29:15  * yorick removes saveload from copy-paste patch
09:29:30  <dihedral> hello yorick
09:31:40  <yorick> nice to see how all of the bugs I fixed two years ago are still in it
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10:36:15  <andythenorth> if I build a z-switchback up a mountain, will trains route through it correctly? :P
10:39:26  <Terkhen> yes, but that path will have a huge penalty
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12:36:18  <andythenorth> brrr
12:36:23  <andythenorth> YACD continues to kick my ass
12:37:07  <planetmaker> as in stealing your time or as in having you loose the game? ;-)
12:37:42  <andythenorth> I'm making money
12:37:47  <andythenorth> but only really on PAX
12:37:52  <planetmaker> :-)
12:37:57  <andythenorth> FIRS is quite...hard :P
12:38:28  <planetmaker> hm, maybe I'll test FIRS and yacd in my next try
12:38:43  <andythenorth> coal comes from A, there's no way to build a chain to end up with supplies going back to A
12:39:13  <andythenorth> so boosting production is really hard
12:39:24  <andythenorth> and trains with 18t / month aren't making much money
12:39:45  <andythenorth> if I leave them loading longer, my cargo decays too much
12:39:51  <andythenorth> and my station ratings are in any case in the ground
12:40:14  * andythenorth would like to abolish effect of station rating on cargo production
12:41:45  <planetmaker> that's a core element of the economy
12:42:30  <planetmaker> not as much as it can't be changed, but as in without that there's no incentive at all to do anything proper. And no way to distinguish how cargo is distributed to competing stations
12:42:36  <andythenorth> I know :(
12:43:04  <andythenorth> it's just not a nice effect with YACD
12:43:15  <andythenorth> 2t of 16t distributed etc :P
12:43:44  <andythenorth> maybe I need to eliminate supplies from FIRS for YACD
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12:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think so, supplies and destinations have a good synergy
12:47:34  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
12:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> just YACD's handling of small amounts should be improved
12:47:56  <andythenorth> FIRS was designed for a different problem: making the crappy default economy more interesting
12:48:27  <andythenorth> maybe I need to rebalance primary / secondary
12:49:00  <andythenorth> lots of primaries is good for YACD.  Lots of secondaries isn't
12:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was telling that for years :p
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12:56:34  <Terkhen> I'm playing my first successful yacd game now, it is just a passengers network :)
12:56:53  <planetmaker> that works quite well, yes
12:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there's way too many passengers
12:57:15  <planetmaker> start in a big town. Build a network. Take another such, do the same. Then connect them. And you're set
12:57:29  <planetmaker> I don't think there's too much
12:57:41  <andythenorth> passengers make money rain from the sky in YACD
12:57:47  <andythenorth> if you pick the right town(s)
12:58:01  <Ammler> not more as without
12:58:04  <planetmaker> It's not like I need dozens of inter city trains to serve a 10k city. About ten still suffice
12:58:14  <planetmaker> But I need quite a few trams and / or busses
12:58:23  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: right now it is working because I am using a lot of metros for local traffic, but I reckon my network will be overwhelmed before I connect all big towns
12:58:36  <Terkhen> meanwhile it is fun :)
12:58:47  <planetmaker> But as usual: The game progresses too fast :-)
12:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> inner city transport can be handled with (large) trams, but inter-city with trains is really troublesome
12:58:56  <planetmaker> Things grow faster than I can keep up expanding
12:59:14  <planetmaker> But I didn't check my town growth setting. It might be possible to lower that
12:59:31  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you think so? I don't find that troublesome
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13:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, it is, with my build style :p
13:01:33  *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
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13:05:04  <planetmaker> I really don't need many trains. Eddi|zuHause and I don't think I used a build style which would be much more different from yours
13:05:21  <planetmaker> My towns have a simple station of 2 ... 4 tracks with train length 5 tiles
13:05:25  <planetmaker> Nothing fancy
13:05:46  <planetmaker> On a 512^2 map
13:06:31  <planetmaker> And 2 ... 4 IC going between two distant 10k cities with intermediate stops in one, two other similar towns doesn't seem to me like "too much"
13:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> my network looks similar to that, but it can't handle it properly...
13:07:21  <planetmaker> Mind though, that I only have about 6 such major passenger stations
13:07:45  <planetmaker> The rest is done by busses / trams into the suburb cities which are very near those major towns
13:08:04  <Belugas> hello
13:08:10  <planetmaker> and of course my map has large parts still unconnected... I always watch too much instead of building ;-)
13:08:31  <planetmaker>  maybe it matters... I use SwedishHouses.
13:08:39  <planetmaker> The house set might influence passenger generation
13:08:41  <planetmaker> hello Belugas
13:08:44  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
13:08:47  <Terkhen> I'm using default houses
13:08:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is likely
13:09:09  <planetmaker> ttrs will rather flood you with pax
13:09:13  <Belugas> hi hi
13:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> check it out:,%201.%20Dez%201962.sav
13:09:48  <planetmaker> hm, later. No OpenTTD here ;-)
13:13:29  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I'm missing a lot of NewGRFs for loading that correctly, but in comparison I'm cheating with station spread a lot :P
13:15:57  <Terkhen> I'm also using metro trains from 2cc for local passengers, they can carry a lot of passengers and load/unload them quite fast
13:16:22  <Terkhen> then again, my biggest town is just 7000
13:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yep, DBSet doesn't have that luxury
13:16:34  <Markk> Is there any "real" subway mods yet? :>
13:16:45  <Markk> Or some way to have signals in tunnels and/or bridges
13:17:22  <Yexo> no and not without a patch
13:17:30  <Markk> Mkay
13:17:36  <Markk> Which patch would that be? :o
13:17:41  <Terkhen> and the patch for that is quite hacky
13:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause> imho subways should be a tram-style network
13:17:45  <Markk> ah
13:17:48  <Terkhen> Markk: signals in tunnels and/or bridges
13:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> just non-blocking with trucks
13:18:25  <Terkhen> I agree, a new roadtype could simulate subways nicely
13:18:52  <Terkhen> people would complain that they can only build under roads, though
13:18:58  <planetmaker> ;-)
13:19:11  <Belugas> in other words, no hack, but the real thing
13:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: but that is fairly realistic
13:19:15  <planetmaker> I'd first complain that I cannot build different road types :-P
13:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> brings us back to the three-roadtypes-per-tile problem ;)
13:19:42  <Terkhen> I know, but they would complain :)
13:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> road,tram,subway
13:19:51  <Terkhen> I am an OpenTTD player, therefore I complain
13:19:53  <Belugas> hey.. they ALWAYS complain
13:20:49  <andythenorth> road types could be solved
13:21:03  <andythenorth> but I doubt it will be :P
13:21:36  <planetmaker> I've no doubt that they will.
13:21:47  <planetmaker> I just won't bet on any specific delivery date ;-)
13:21:58  <Terkhen> lim time->inf
13:22:16  <Belugas> WIWBR
13:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> ∀F
13:30:42  <planetmaker> on a dense set
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13:46:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could consider the temporal logic over all commits
13:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> commits are discrete
13:47:35  <Belugas> yeah :)
13:47:41  <Belugas> and cement is concrete
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14:04:45  <yorick> hooray for heap corruption
14:05:01  <yorick> was getting crashes in the sound system...freed a pointed twice
14:05:04  <yorick> pointer*
14:09:56  <blathijs> yorick: Heh, that sounds familiar :-)
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14:10:22  <yorick> note to self: std::vector<int*>::~vector calls delete on the contents
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14:16:10  <Yexo> it does?
14:22:11  <Eddi|zuHause> well if insert etc. make copies, those copies should be deleted on removal
14:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> of course i have no idea how std::stuff works
14:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not eager to find out
14:23:29  <Yexo> it makes a copy of the pointer
14:23:40  <yorick> Yexo: someone on ##C++ said it does, and then someone else said it doesn't
14:23:43  <Yexo> and as such it should only destroy the pointer, not the object pointed to
14:23:57  <Yexo> I'm almost certain it doesn't, as it wouldn't make any sense
14:29:28  <yorick> I should try to valgrind it, but then I run valgrind and wait 5 minutes before it launches a black screen
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14:36:54  <yorick> have there been any "omg virgin mary appeared on my random map" reports?
14:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> have you checked the screenshots/savegames forum?
14:37:56  <planetmaker> I'm sure I've seen here. So: yes
14:38:23  <yorick> :'(
14:40:10  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you're not friend with URL tags today, are you?
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14:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm actually going crazy now...
14:41:52  <Eddi|zuHause> how can i make the exact same mistake twice?
14:42:07  <Eddi|zuHause> on two completely independent occasions
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16:34:31  <Terkhen> my network is starting to collapse :(
16:35:10  <andythenorth> why?
16:35:37  <Rubidium> paxoverload?
16:35:41  <Terkhen> yes
16:36:21  <andythenorth> I don't worry about that
16:36:24  <andythenorth> they can stand and wait
16:36:27  <andythenorth> I"m making money :P
16:36:58  * andythenorth is busy plotting how to rebuild FIRS
16:38:58  <andythenorth> making FIRS specific to YACD is going to result in fewer FIRS users?
16:39:34  <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO that's a big steep and maybe it is too early
16:39:56  <Terkhen> besides, if supplies are the problem you could do that "simple" economy you already had planned
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16:40:02  <andythenorth> can't see me going back to a non-YACD game now
16:40:05  <andythenorth> too addictive
16:40:37  <Terkhen> me too
16:40:54  <Terkhen> what problems do FIRS have with YACD?
16:40:58  <andythenorth> I for one welcome our new YACD overlord :P
16:41:43  <andythenorth> brb - baby action
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16:42:13  <Terkhen> ok
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16:46:54  <andythenorth> Terkhen: multiple problems
16:47:11  <andythenorth> two are easy to describe and solve, one is hard
16:47:38  <andythenorth> (1) FIRS primaries generally have low production, this is then split 2 or 3 ways, and routes are not profitable
16:48:13  <andythenorth> (2) it's insanely hard to get enough cargo moving in chains to generate supplies
16:48:54  <andythenorth> (3) FIRS secondary production ratios are a bad concept for YACD.
16:49:31  <andythenorth> and there's a minor one (4) some FIRS industries cluster to provide short profitable routes, but this concept fails with YACD
16:50:08  <andythenorth> 3 is a killer
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16:53:39  <Terkhen> hmm... (1) seems like the biggest issue to me
16:53:59  <Terkhen> with (3) you mean the "6 tonnes for each 8 ton" part?
16:54:03  <andythenorth> yes
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16:54:17  <andythenorth> and the need to deliver 2 or 3 cargos in combination
16:54:18  <Terkhen> why is that an issue?
16:54:36  <anujmore> My local authority is not allowing me to do stuff :/ Any cheat for that?
16:54:44  <anujmore> TTD 1.1.0
16:55:05  <andythenorth> production ratio combination was designed to encourage players to deliver multiple cargos to a secondary industry
16:55:12  <andythenorth> but with YACD that's not a choice the player has
16:55:27  <Alberth> anujmore: plant trees, or try bribing, or wait
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16:56:12  <Alberth> anujmore: normal strategy is to first place the stations, then turn the city upside down ;)
16:56:33  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the difficulty of getting enough cargo for the industry you want is the biggest problem IMO
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16:56:49  <andythenorth> I thought so
16:56:57  <Alberth> anujmore: there is also a city counsil attitude setting somewhere
16:57:12  <anujmore> Alberth: I don't know how to 'turn a city upside down'. You can edit a wiki page on how to do that.
16:57:17  <Terkhen> the same things happens with towns (you get a long list of towns with not much passengers), but in that case it is not a big issue
16:57:47  <anujmore> Alberth: 'Planting trees'. In the vicinity of the city?
16:57:49  <andythenorth> but now I have 1,000t of iron ore going into a steel mill...
16:58:05  <Alberth> anujmore: counsil gets upset when you terraform or clear land. I call that 'turning the city upside down'.
16:58:06  <andythenorth> (grouped from 6 ore mines - YACD is good at that)
16:58:17  <Alberth> anujmore: yes, near the city
16:58:22  <Terkhen> I think the same would happen with ECS or any other complex industry NewGRF set; if a cargo can go to too much destinations, you end up not having enough cargo for any industry
16:58:46  <Terkhen> for productive industries, using destinations it is a bit stupid IMO
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16:59:13  <Terkhen> coal is coal, you don't care from where it comes
16:59:14  <andythenorth> I'm only getting 250t metal out because I have no coal or scrap  that want to go to that mill
16:59:19  <anujmore> Alberth: I totally terraformed it. And cleared it. Building my dream city now. What about bribing. Where is that?
16:59:26  <Alberth> Terkhen: YACD makes that problem worse in the sense that it distributes cargo always in all directions
16:59:41  <Terkhen> and a coal mine shouldn't mind where its cargo goes as long as it is being sold
16:59:58  <Terkhen> it makes sense for stuff like goods and so on, not for primary cargos
17:00:12  <Alberth> but my mine has contracts! :p
17:00:16  <andythenorth> I think it does make sense
17:00:26  <andythenorth> it's FIRS that is wrong
17:00:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: it is not designed with cargod*st in mind, that does not mean it is wrong
17:01:10  <Terkhen> meh, I let my game unpaused and now all stations are overloaded again
17:01:23  <Alberth> anujmore: in the city window, but you have to enable it
17:01:37  <Terkhen> s/let/left/
17:01:47  <Alberth> Terkhen: reload from the last save game :)
17:02:06  <Terkhen> I wonder when I saved for the last time :)
17:02:26  <Alberth> tias :)
17:02:40  <andythenorth> FIRS requires multiple cargos to be delivered within a 30 day window
17:02:46  <andythenorth> which is also worse for YACD
17:03:01  <andythenorth> I have to run trains that might only deliver a few times a year because cargo amounts are so small
17:03:41  <andythenorth> I also had to turn off secondary closing, or I lose all my industries, but I could really do with a few less secondaries in this game
17:04:03  * Alberth points to the magic bulldozer
17:05:21  * andythenorth points back at a checkbox in his game
17:05:28  <andythenorth> kind of cheating though...
17:05:39  <andythenorth> I'm sure this is solvable
17:05:51  <andythenorth> wonder what good alternatives there to combining cargo
17:06:55  *** Sacro [~ben@] has joined #openttd
17:07:04  <planetmaker> many chains like coal mine > power plant ;-)
17:07:27  <Terkhen> enabling yacd only for passengers/cargo :P
17:07:36  *** Nite [] has joined #openttd
17:07:38  <andythenorth> no fun :P
17:07:48  <andythenorth> YACD makes for a better cargo network
17:07:54  <andythenorth> it's FIRS that needs updating
17:08:00  <Nite> what is YACD ?
17:08:30  <Terkhen> Nite:
17:08:33  <planetmaker> yet another ...
17:08:52  <Nite> thx :-D
17:08:58  <andythenorth> also...that town question comes up a lot
17:09:12  <andythenorth> we should update the string
17:09:20  <andythenorth> used by the 'not allowed' error
17:09:44  *** zachanima [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:10:47  <Nite> cargo to specific tiles (not areas) reads rather complex
17:11:18  <Alberth> andythenorth: accept the same input cargo by many industries would help in combining
17:12:38  <Terkhen> Nite: I find it more intuitive than normal gameplay
17:13:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22419 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 4 dirs):
17:13:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: Always use the DOS palette for drawing.
17:13:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Remove: the '-i' option for palette selection.
17:15:27  <anujmore> Ok. Guys. Someone needs to help with checking my local authority rating.
17:15:47  <andythenorth> Alberth: can you explain? :)
17:16:06  <andythenorth> do you mean no destinations for primary cargo?
17:16:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22420 /trunk/src/table/palettes.h: -Cleanup: Replace the somewhat mixed DOS+Windows palette with the pure DOS palette. Also blank the animation colours, which are filled from a different array anyway.
17:17:07  <Alberth> no destinations for primary cargo just shifts the problem one level
17:17:26  <andythenorth> yes
17:17:30  <andythenorth> and it's not as much fun :)
17:17:38  <andythenorth> it's question of industry design
17:17:54  <anujmore> How do I check my what the local authority rates me as?
17:18:02  <andythenorth> town window
17:18:18  <Alberth> in the extreme, if I have an industry that accepts all kinds of cargo, it is trivial to get enough output from it
17:18:24  <andythenorth> ^^ shame the error message doesn't (a) say that (b) provide a link to town window
17:18:54  <andythenorth> Alberth: I could ditch the combinatory ratios
17:19:48  <Alberth> the other way around, have many industries that can produce the same cargo would also make it easier
17:20:09  <andythenorth> hmm
17:20:11  * andythenorth ponders
17:20:20  <andythenorth> I could use stockpiling...
17:20:36  <andythenorth> so no cargo is processed until all required cargo is supplied
17:20:39  <andythenorth> > worse
17:21:09  <V453000> stockpiling?
17:21:18  <V453000> that would be disastrous
17:21:32  <Alberth> your < 1 production ratio makes things more difficult compared to default industries, it's an extra factor that is added
17:21:37  <V453000> makes PBI unplayable foe example
17:21:43  <Alberth> I don't know what eg ECS does
17:21:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think it could be modified
17:21:56  <andythenorth> some of the ratios are very low, e.g. 2/8
17:22:05  <andythenorth> it could be more forgiving
17:22:11  <andythenorth> e.g. 5/8
17:22:23  <andythenorth> new problem
17:22:28  <Alberth> an extra setting
17:22:42  <andythenorth> I now have (after 55 years), some supplies being produced
17:22:49  <andythenorth> but all 48 crates want to go to one mine :(
17:23:03  <andythenorth> another FIRS concept fails with YACD :D
17:23:15  <andythenorth> YACD needs a newgrf spec
17:23:25  <Alberth> V453000: unplayable because you have to stop supplying industries?
17:23:35  <Alberth> YACD needs to fix that imho
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17:23:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm not quite sure whether your "it has all to be solved via newgrfs" is here the right approach
17:23:59  <andythenorth> it's a bit late to change that approach
17:24:05  <V453000> unplayable because you can not by any means expect having productions of primaries balanced enough to keep for example a steel mill alive
17:24:05  <andythenorth> that's been the default approach for years :)
17:24:10  <Alberth> you need a finer balance of where the cargo goes imho
17:24:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth: not quite
17:24:32  <V453000> you always have more of one, be it iron ore or coal
17:24:35  <andythenorth> wrt industries it has been
17:25:00  <Alberth> V453000: ah, yeah that is also a problem
17:25:04  <planetmaker> but not wrt where cargo goes
17:25:29  <andythenorth> I don't see how the game can know about the intentions of a newgrf
17:26:06  <V453000> having stockpiling, stopping productions and expecting the cargo to arrive in X:Y rate is just ill-minded and does not fit the game at all
17:26:07  <andythenorth> the cargo requirements of an industry are an aspect of the industry newgrf, not the game?
17:26:26  <V453000> I like what FIRS does, you deliver both ->you get more produced, but it does not break anything
17:26:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: and where they go is in the domain of the player and the game. Not the newgrf
17:27:05  <Alberth> V453000: stockpiling in its own is not so bad, the trouble comes with rigid X:Y ratios, and finite buffers
17:27:16  <V453000> it is absolutely bad
17:27:32  <planetmaker> if it is limited
17:27:35  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that points to why I think FIRS supplies concept may be invalid with YACD...
17:27:45  <andythenorth> FIRS tries to tell player 'send this much cargo'
17:27:52  <andythenorth> but the game doesn't know about that
17:28:02  <V453000> planetmaker: unlimited stockpiling only doesnt break anything, but it just remains stupid
17:28:04  <V453000> imo
17:28:31  <planetmaker> what's the difference from a playing POV to 'just accept everything'?
17:28:50  <planetmaker> and why is it more stupid than to instantaneously process everything?
17:29:10  <Alberth> ramping up production slowly is nice, imho
17:29:19  <V453000> yes, that doesnt hurt :)
17:30:04  <Alberth> and a finite processing speed means you cannot dump everything at one industry, which may be nice too
17:30:14  <andythenorth> stockpiling of one cargo with YACD would be fine, it's supposed to optimise for it
17:30:29  <andythenorth> stockpiling + waiting for all needed cargo would be a disaster with YACD
17:30:44  <Nite> finite is good but stockpiles should be rather large ...
17:31:04  <andythenorth> as usual stockpiling is misunderstood :P
17:31:07  <Alberth> rigid ratio between cargoes is bad
17:31:13  <andythenorth> a stockpile is a big pile of stuff
17:31:14  <Nite> playing only ecs for quite some time now
17:31:28  <andythenorth> a stockpile is *not* turning off acceptance when a limit is reached
17:31:33  <Terkhen> stockpiling + YACD would probably result in a huge network collapse if you surpass the limit
17:31:36  <andythenorth> that is called 'turning off acceptance'
17:31:42  * andythenorth is fed up of correcting this
17:31:50  <Terkhen> hmm... for me they have always been the same thing :)
17:32:13  <andythenorth> the metal industries in canadian set use stockpiling
17:32:17  <andythenorth> but not with limits
17:33:01  <Nite> so the stockpile stays at a level but you can deliver as i understand
17:33:18  <andythenorth> if you deliver, you get paid, but the stockpile probably gets bigger
17:33:38  <Terkhen> if the stockpile limit is reached, you can deliver, you get paid but that cargo is not used for production?
17:33:40  <andythenorth> it should be called 'gradual processing' which is (I think) what the spec actually calls it
17:33:41  <Nite> well in ecs you often have overproduction
17:33:52  <andythenorth> cargo is processed at a fixed rate
17:34:02  <Nite> which forces you to build something to balance
17:34:31  <Nite> its more a balancing act then yust produce more and more of one cargo
17:34:37  <Nite> j
17:34:57  * Terkhen is okay with that way of stockpiling
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17:35:19  <Nite> guess i have to try yacd in first place
17:36:27  <andythenorth> any industry that requires cargos in combination is going to be a minor disaster for YACD :(
17:36:44  <Nite> might be true
17:37:22  * andythenorth pondres
17:37:31  <andythenorth> it's like pondering, but in foreign
17:37:36  <Nite> i also think cargodestdistinations are mostly needed for pax
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17:37:42  <Alberth> andythenorth: you could reduce the bonus for combined cargo delivery
17:37:46  <andythenorth> yes
17:37:55  <andythenorth> and increase the ratio for single cargo
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17:38:00  <andythenorth> seems like the best approach initiall
17:38:01  <andythenorth> y
17:38:17  <andythenorth> and can be done in my current game :)
17:38:30  <Nite> industry placement could do a lot forcing you to deliver further than next door
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17:39:00  <andythenorth> Nite: it's a puny measure compared to what YACD can do
17:39:17  <Nite> or could do?
17:39:38  <andythenorth> YACD makes cargo transport way more interesting, as the cargo is trying to get somewhere
17:39:45  <andythenorth> so transfers and such have way more purpose
17:39:51  <andythenorth> before they were optionsl
17:39:56  <andythenorth> optional /s
17:40:03  <andythenorth> with YACD they're obligatory
17:40:10  <andythenorth> and much simpler to set up
17:40:38  <Nite> i assume cargo stocked at stations still decreases with time ?
17:41:06  <planetmaker> if the rating is < 50%, yes
17:41:08  <andythenorth> planetmaker: any ideas for what to do with supplies (assuming something other than a newgrf spec)
17:41:10  <andythenorth> ?
17:42:08  <planetmaker> stockpile them with a cut-off of 12 months (but continue accepting) and reduce it each month by the monthly share
17:42:08  <Nite> did never know that it only decreases below 50%
17:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> destinations severely suffer from the rating dropping below 50%
17:42:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so back to the original supplies behaviour with a few tweaks?
17:42:50  <planetmaker> might be worth a try, not?
17:42:53  <andythenorth> could be
17:43:00  <andythenorth> I'm not sure they're even valid any more
17:43:04  <planetmaker> it would also fix the issue of delivering exactly every month
17:43:09  <andythenorth> yes
17:43:13  <andythenorth> and the question of amounts
17:43:15  <andythenorth> and effects
17:43:20  <planetmaker> could be a parameter like "stockpile for N months"
17:43:26  <Terkhen> sounds good
17:43:29  <planetmaker> and that could be fixed then (easier), too
17:43:34  <andythenorth> the purpose of supplies was to give players ability to influence industry production
17:43:38  <andythenorth> YACD prevents that
17:43:40  <planetmaker> like consume more from a stockpile for higher production
17:43:49  <planetmaker> would make it possibly easier
17:44:00  <planetmaker> I know that I deviate from opinions voiced previously
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17:44:05  <andythenorth> stuff changes
17:44:19  <andythenorth> I suspect they're a bad idea
17:44:26  <planetmaker> No, I don't think so
17:44:28  *** douknoukem [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:44:29  <andythenorth> I don't think YACD will work well with them
17:44:47  <Terkhen> there, fixed network :)
17:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i do think that.
17:45:00  <planetmaker> Also: don't start to taylor FIRS for YACD before it's in trunk
17:45:04  <Terkhen> ^
17:45:05  <andythenorth> ach
17:45:11  <planetmaker> and I'm confident they'll work with yacd
17:45:28  <andythenorth> they'll be annoying
17:45:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22422 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
17:45:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
17:45:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
17:45:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
17:45:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe
17:45:41  <andythenorth> production will depend on where YACD chooses to send cargo
17:45:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22421 /trunk/src/ (19 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: Replace various references to Windows palette greyscale indices with the DOS palette indices.
17:45:49  <andythenorth> player will have no influence on industry production
17:45:53  <Eddi|zuHause> supplies can benefit from stockpiling, regardless of YACD
17:46:16  <andythenorth> ^ I won't do that
17:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yacd still needs tweaks for small amounts of cargo
17:46:52  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the patch is not near finished.
17:47:00  <andythenorth> I'm 70% convinced that supplies needs to go
17:47:03  <Nite> why is CD for cargo so intresting at all?
17:47:06  <planetmaker> You should not draw any conclusions from how distribution works in your version as of now
17:47:11  <Terkhen> supplies is what makes FIRS unique
17:47:14  <planetmaker> ^^
17:47:23  <andythenorth> try a game and see....
17:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't remove supplies, it's the whole point of FIRS
17:47:34  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's a patch. It's not trunk
17:47:38  <planetmaker> And it WILL change behaviour
17:47:38  <Nite> i would only need PD Paxdestinations ...
17:47:43  <andythenorth> trunk players can use FIRS 0.6.4
17:47:51  <andythenorth> FIRS development is stalled anyway
17:48:05  <andythenorth> I'm quite happy developing it for me
17:48:14  <andythenorth> there won't be another release for a long time
17:48:18  <Nite> the destination of cargo is already determined by the industries and where they are placed i think
17:48:29  <Alberth> Nite: but cargo is much more fun, much more diversity in wagons that you need
17:48:32  <andythenorth> Nite: have you tried a yacd game?
17:48:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: mail, goods, food, valuables -- all benefit from cargo destinations
17:48:50  <Nite> but ok it should be complete
17:48:53  <andythenorth> yacd could make town control non-necessary
17:49:09  <andythenorth> it provides much more interest for town cargos like food
17:49:28  <Alberth> Nite: passengers and mail is quite easy, as you immediately have cargo for both directions
17:49:32  <andythenorth> and 'grow this town by delivering cargo' is not that interesting a goal anyway
17:49:37  <andythenorth> whereas yacd is addictive
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17:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they complement each other
17:50:06  <andythenorth> they could indeed
17:50:17  <andythenorth> I don't think they conflict in anyway
17:50:22  <andythenorth> if town control happens, great :)
17:50:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no point disturbing your tram network with mail cars, if there's no requirement to transport mail at all
17:50:51  <andythenorth> except that you make money...
17:51:19  <andythenorth> mail needs a rethink...
17:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you won't if your transport capacity is already exhausted with passengers
17:51:31  <andythenorth> true
17:52:11  <andythenorth> the point of FIRS supplies is that I can influence industry growth
17:52:28  <andythenorth> instead of relying on crazy station rating, which fails for many networks
17:52:44  <andythenorth> but with YACD that purpose is gone
17:52:48  <Terkhen> yes, you can use supplies to do what you want
17:52:57  <Terkhen> why is that gone? you still might want to increase the production of some industries
17:53:04  <andythenorth> you don't have the choice to do so
17:53:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the point of supplies is to have some basic feedback mechanism, once your initial network is built up
17:53:27  <andythenorth> I think it might be better to revert to looking at station ratings, or transported cargo or some such to boost production
17:53:40  <andythenorth> it will also free up some cargos, and reduce the industry count nicely
17:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: station ratings are even worse with yacdest
17:53:49  <andythenorth> yes
17:53:53  <andythenorth> I think they're a crappy problem
17:54:07  <andythenorth> I could use piglets to fix them, but that's nasty
17:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause> don't remove supplies, they are a good concept as they are right now
17:55:18  <andythenorth> it seems they're popular, but that doesn't mean they're good
17:55:20  <Terkhen> IMO marking supplies as "this cargo should not use destinations" would be enough
17:55:29  *** JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:55:31  <andythenorth> but that's not going to be possible
17:55:32  <planetmaker> it would cut out the spirit of FIRS, if ther were no supplies
17:55:33  <Terkhen> then you regain control of supplies again
17:55:35  <Terkhen> why not?
17:55:41  <Terkhen> YACD is not finished
17:55:46  <andythenorth> it would need a newgrf spec
17:55:52  <andythenorth> hmm
17:55:54  <planetmaker> ach
17:56:01  <andythenorth> the spirit of FIRS is 'fun gameplay'
17:56:16  <planetmaker> you really should stop thinking about *random patch* influencing NewGRF.
17:56:17  <Terkhen> given that YACD already supports deciding which cargos use destinations via parameters, I don't think that adding a new cargo flag for this behaviour would be a big issue
17:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i really think destinations are ESPECIALLY useful for supplies
17:59:09  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. send a larger train on a roundtrip-route, and each industry along this route gets a small share of the loaded supplies
17:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that needs changing is the distribution function of yacdest
17:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's working way better with cargodist
18:02:14  *** Nite [] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
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18:02:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's true
18:03:00  <V453000> aka making it noob way
18:03:15  <andythenorth> if I had any significant quantity of supplies on my map I could test it :)
18:04:15  <andythenorth> YACD already has certain weightings in cfg, although I'm not 100% sure what they do yet
18:04:32  *** Chillosophy [] has joined #openttd
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18:04:40  <andythenorth> being able to specify 'favour many industries' or 'favour large cargo amounts' would be useful
18:08:53  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
18:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those are yacdest problems, that's precisely why it's "not finished yet"
18:11:35  <andythenorth> well perhaps
18:11:52  <andythenorth> but exactly how should it solve that problem?
18:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the general path is "don't change FIRS to fit YACDest, change YACDest to fit FIRS"
18:12:55  <andythenorth> no that's clearly all wrong
18:12:59  <andythenorth> FIRS is a newgrf
18:13:13  <andythenorth> changing the game to fit a specific industry newgrf is upside down
18:13:37  <andythenorth> we proved recently that newgrfs have to comply with spec, not vice-versa (depot flip)
18:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, it is not. if a newgrf was working well with unchanged game, so any game change must carefully consider the implication on the newgrfs
18:14:20  <andythenorth> but yacd doesn't break the nfo behaviour
18:14:26  <andythenorth> it's an addition to gameplay
18:14:33  <andythenorth> it's up to authors to support that correctly
18:15:01  <andythenorth> :o :)
18:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yacdest is also not fully specified yet. so it's the easiest thing to change
18:15:24  <andythenorth> I am only confused on one point: how should it change?
18:15:33  <andythenorth> if I knew what feedback to provide to michi I could
18:16:02  <andythenorth> currently it goes like this: please special case certain cargo labels used by FIRS, which may be used differently by other sets, but do it anyway (please)
18:16:24  <andythenorth> but I may be overlooking something obvious
18:16:26  <andythenorth> it happens often
18:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the two things that are floating in my head are: a) each "chunk" of industry shouldn't only go to one single industry, it should spread out. and b) each industry should have at least two incoming sources for the same cargo
18:17:01  <planetmaker> not cargo labels need to be special but possibly certain cargo properties / flags
18:17:07  <andythenorth> yes
18:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the more industries there are, the higher the number of incoming/outgoing lines should be
18:17:20  <andythenorth> seems like an action 0 prop, or more likely, a cb
18:17:33  <planetmaker> like passenger cargo class uses - passenger stations. The rest cargo stations
18:17:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like an enforced distribution to make sure all needed cargos are provided in some amount?
18:17:52  <andythenorth> currently that is far from guaranteed by YACD ;)
18:18:39  <andythenorth> isn't there a risk it just ends up with a uniform distribution?
18:18:53  <andythenorth> (which would suit supplies perfectly, but not other cargos )
18:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: currently, yacdest-distribution works like majority vote: all or nothing
18:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> a more proportional system would be better
18:19:34  <andythenorth> very timely ;)
18:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist is fully proportional, which is why it works better
18:21:52  <andythenorth> my planes are doing very badly with yacd, which surprises me
18:22:22  <michi_cc> Oh my, what monster did I unleash? :)
18:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planes have near zero capacity, every plane line i ever made was immediately overloaded
18:22:34  <Terkhen> :P
18:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: not monster. it just needs some fine scale tweaks :p
18:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. the other 90% of the work :p)
18:23:56  <andythenorth> michi_cc: it's pretty much the game I was waiting for TTD to be :P
18:28:25  <peter1138> yacd is how i wanted cargodest to work ;p
18:28:38  <peter1138> simutrans-style
18:28:56  <andythenorth> ach, ship it, it's done :P
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18:37:49  <michi_cc> cargodest at with the wrong side of the problem (just as my two previous YACD tries did :). If you want destinations, start with the destinations and not with the routing.
18:38:08  <michi_cc> s/at/started/
18:46:38  <peter1138> *nod*
18:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well. it has advantages and disadvantages
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18:50:40  <andythenorth> 'death to the transfer order' :P
18:50:58  <andythenorth> what happens if I actually use transfer in yacd? :o
18:51:05  <andythenorth> probably nothing
18:51:12  <andythenorth> or nothing different
18:51:13  <planetmaker> works as expected
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18:55:42  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Transfer is silently ignored, all other order modifiers work like before.
18:56:07  <andythenorth> makes sense
18:56:14  <andythenorth> fewer clicks for me :)
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18:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, when the autosave-interval has an invalid value in the config, could it default to monthly instead of off?
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18:59:25  <ChoHag_> Can the liklihood of a level-crossing collision be reduced?
18:59:29  <ChoHag_> Or even removed entirely.
18:59:37  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: that would make perfect sense, so no.
18:59:50  <Zuu> ChoHag_: Not in OpenTTD.
18:59:55  <Rubidium> Zuu: lies...
18:59:58  <Zuu> But you can write a patch.
18:59:59  <Rubidium> 1) use path signals
19:00:05  <Zuu> Oh, yes
19:00:16  <Rubidium> 1a) don't use 1 tile signal blocks
19:00:20  <Rubidium> 2) use bridges
19:00:21  <__ln__> ChoHag_: yes, by not having any road vehicles on roads containing level-crossings
19:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> 2) use adjacent crossing patch
19:00:45  <Alberth> a) don't use trucks/buses, b) don't use trains
19:01:16  <ChoHag_> What's the point in having road vehicles if not to use them?
19:01:27  <Zuu> c) use AIs that build bridges.
19:01:56  <Alberth> ChoHag_: it reduces the chance of a collision
19:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> however, adjacent crossings are deat traps for articulated trucks/trams
19:03:20  <Eddi|zuHause> *death
19:03:49  <ChoHag_> So if I have both trains and buses, the only way to avoid collisions and have level crossings is path signals?
19:04:14  <Alberth> quite likely
19:05:06  <Eddi|zuHause> path signals close the crossing earlier, so slow trucks are less likely to be hit by fast trains, but on double tracks, the second track is very likely to crash into the backlog of vehicles
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19:06:08  <Alberth> usually, I build bridges instead of a level crossing
19:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> level crossings are actually quite nice as long as you have low traffic
19:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> bridges take more space, especially without custom bridgeheads
19:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and towns don't create buildings next to bridgeheads
19:08:12  <ChoHag_> Seems to be working.
19:12:53  <ChoHag_> If you change AI options in the main screen does it affect already-created AIs?
19:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no, changes on the main screen (almost) never affect existing games
19:15:12  <ChoHag_> Can existing AI's options be changed?
19:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> never tried that
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19:46:25  * dihedral cries
19:46:37  <dihedral> unity sucks, gnome 3 sucks ....
19:46:39  <dihedral> grr
19:47:15  <fonsinchen> kde4 sucks, too
19:47:18  <planetmaker> vacuum sucks
19:47:38  <fonsinchen> I don't understand how they managed to mess it all up so thoroughly ...
19:47:50  <dihedral> aye
19:48:05  <dihedral> in the past the future simply was better!
19:49:27  <dihedral> yes, they do have some nifty features - but at what cost?
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19:58:26  <dihedral> fonsinchen, what do you use instead then?
19:58:38  <fonsinchen> lxde and xfce
19:58:47  <fonsinchen> I like lxde more atm
19:59:16  <fonsinchen> but I haven't settled, yet
19:59:43  <fonsinchen> I also tried those tiling WMs, but I didn't have the patience to properly set them up.
19:59:47  <fonsinchen> Nice idea, though.
20:00:49  <fonsinchen> Maybe I should try trinity. kde3 used to be my favourite.
20:02:14  <andythenorth> how do you get any code written when finding a WM takes so long? :o
20:02:22  *** douknoukem [] has joined #openttd
20:03:39  <fonsinchen> finding a WM takes so long because I don't spend much time on it. The whole situation just annoys me.
20:03:51  *** KouDy [] has joined #openttd
20:04:31  <dihedral> we only have to waste time finding a WM because the current chosen software is fucking up!
20:04:42  <andythenorth> he
20:06:14  <dihedral> imo gnome3 is lacking a lot of stuff, esp. customizability
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20:07:32  <fonsinchen> we should write a WM called "vacuum" that combines all the misfeatures of kd4, gnome3 and unity ...
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20:10:01  <dihedral> fonsinchen, in openttd style :-P
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20:10:40  <Zuu> ChoHag_: You can change the settings of running AIs. You do it from the AI-debug window.
20:11:12  <Zuu> Be aware though, that AIs tell OpenTTD which settings that are allowed to be changed in game.
20:11:41  <Zuu> The AI-debug window do not have a hotkey by default, so you need to pull down the ?-menu to the right and select it from there.
20:13:46  <dihedral> fonsinchen, how about enlightenment :-)
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20:14:21  <fonsinchen> Oh, I have tried that some years ago and it felt unfinished. I guess not much has changed ...
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20:15:12  <fonsinchen> In fact blender has an interesting integrated window manager. People coming from other 3d modelling apps are always cursing it, but I did like it.
20:15:38  <fonsinchen> When I'm really bored I'll make a desktop WM from it.
20:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fun to watch the cat follow the mouse cursor with her head, but i'm afraid it will suddenly jump up and attack the screen :p
20:23:52  <Alberth> I have used twm for a long time in the past :p
20:24:07  <fonsinchen> how could you endure that?
20:24:31  <Alberth> what do you miss then?
20:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i have one particular annoying misfeature of kde4's wm.
20:24:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22423 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Document: some network stuff
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20:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> when i have a window and resize it to size A, then close and reopen it, it remembered size A. so far so good
20:25:20  <Alberth> I mostly use the mouse to point in which window to type.
20:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> when i now maximise it, and de-maximise it, it also remembers size A
20:25:39  <fonsinchen> last time I tried twm I couldn't figure out how to resize windows and it wouldn't resize or place them in any sane way automatically ...
20:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but when i maximise it, close it, reopen it, and de-maximise it, then it doesn't go back to A, but to some default size
20:26:05  <frosch123> [22:25] <Alberth> I mostly use the mouse to point in which window to type. <- that's a must have on big screens
20:26:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i absolutely hate that
20:26:28  <frosch123> luckily almost every wm supports it
20:26:41  <frosch123> though not as stupid as fvwm did
20:27:03  <Alberth> frosch123: yeah, I cannot not live without it
20:27:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: if the screen is big enough, i fail to keep track of both where the mouse is and where the focus is
20:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a problem with mouse focus, but maybe that's because of me not finding the setting yet
20:27:17  <frosch123> so it gets easier if there is only one thing to follow
20:27:34  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: oh, that wasn't a reply to you
20:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that was a followup to my previous line
20:28:14  <frosch123> another advantage is, that it completely prevents focus stealing
20:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that focus bug is: when i drag&drop something into a window, that window doesn't get focus
20:28:18  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I seldomly use maximize
20:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i use it quite often, actually
20:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i have two positions from which i regularly access the computer. from desk-distance, and from tv-distance
20:29:47  <Eddi|zuHause> if i am on tv-distance, and i want to look something up on the internet, i maximise the browser and set large font
20:29:47  <Alberth> you must have long arms then :p
20:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't have to get up
20:30:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i have wireless mouse/keyboard :p
20:30:50  * frosch123 hates everything which has batteries
20:31:13  <frosch123> they are always depleted when i need them
20:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it's ok, i just exchange them with the ones in the phone, takes less than a minute
20:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the keyboard batteries have never been empty
20:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> the mouse has rechargables, last like two weeks or something
20:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't actually measured that
20:33:28  <frosch123> i am quite happy with wired stuff when the wires are long enough
20:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that wouldn't work here...
20:33:58  <frosch123> i am using an about 10 year old first-generation optical mouse
20:34:38  <frosch123> never had a mouse before which survived longer
20:35:27  <frosch123> though it is a bit "worn out"
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20:55:43  <Zuu> I only have a wrieless mouse for remote control at the TV. I miss the Logitech driver feature to map one of the several buttons as CTRL-key so I can zoom in firefox without a keyboard. However, from experience I know it's not a good idea to install the logitech point device drivers on a laptop if you want to keep the touch pad drivers as well.
20:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, anyone know how i can configure a mouse button as ctrl on linux?
20:59:02  <andythenorth> bed time
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20:59:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and anyone know why amarok didn't scrobble anything on for over a year?
21:00:00  <Zuu> I don't think I ever got more than 5 buttons to work in Lunux (where button 4 and 5 is the scroll wheel).
21:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well, my mouse has 9 buttons
21:00:49  <Zuu> Or well, I got horizontal scroll to work on a laptop which was quite nice as in Firefox you can use it as back/forward.
21:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but mousewheel left/right are awful to use on this mouse
21:01:32  <Zuu> My wireless trackball have 7 buttons + scroll.
21:02:28  * Zuu still waits for a better trackball than the logitech model one that is probably > 10 year old by now.
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21:31:26  <planetmaker> good night
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23:12:39  <Terkhen> good night
23:13:33  <Wolf01> 'night all
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