Log for #openttd on 12th May 2011:
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00:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> "rumor has it that chuck may get renewed for 13 episodes"
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07:48:19  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:51:16  <planetmaker> moin
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08:54:08  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause, George:
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09:03:29  * andythenorth can't figure something with YACD
09:04:09  <andythenorth> when there are different cargos going from near-A to near-B...
09:04:19  <andythenorth> I should be able to aggregate them to one large mixed train
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09:23:00  <peter1138> but?
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09:35:33  <George> Terkhen:  r21421M isn't it not the latest version?
09:37:04  <Terkhen> George: it should display hde7e3fbcM; it is a mercurial checkout
09:37:19  <Terkhen> it is r22444
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09:44:25  <George> Reloaded the page. now it is the correct one
09:45:09  <George> Unfortunately I'll be busy today, hope to do the testing tomorrow
09:45:42  <George> anyway thank you for the executable
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09:47:38  <Terkhen> you are welcome :)
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09:47:58  <andythenorth> peter1138: but I'm not clever enough :P
09:48:16  <andythenorth> how many wagons should my train have for each cargo?
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10:04:41  <Wolf01> hello
10:06:35  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
10:06:54  <peter1138> however many is needed, presumably...
10:07:59  <andythenorth> meh
10:08:13  * andythenorth is committing logical fallacy
10:09:07  * peter1138 went into tesco the other day and they only had TEENY TINY caulis
10:09:10  <peter1138> for the usual price
10:09:22  <peter1138> next day, full-fat large caulis
10:09:24  <peter1138> for the usual price
10:09:59  <andythenorth> you should protest
10:10:03  <andythenorth> start a riot
10:10:30  <peter1138> yes, i should
10:10:37  <andythenorth> it's the in thing
10:10:54  <peter1138> i'd go to the local grocer's's's instead
10:10:56  <peter1138> but there isn't one
10:11:23  <andythenorth> blame tesco
10:11:32  <andythenorth> :P
10:12:33  <peter1138> quite
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10:13:14  * andythenorth predicts a riot
10:13:25  <KopjeKoffie> hello
10:13:31  <Terkhen> hi KopjeKoffie
10:13:43  * andythenorth gets his hair cut next to the controversial tesco
10:13:48  <andythenorth> not right now
10:13:59  <KopjeKoffie> ik have just compiled my own version of openttd with MinGW32
10:15:00  <KopjeKoffie> downloaded my favorite grf en some senarios
10:15:20  <KopjeKoffie> i want to add some grfs to a senario
10:15:43  <KopjeKoffie> how do i do that>
10:15:51  <planetmaker> well. Scenarios have their newgrfs pre-selected
10:16:13  <planetmaker> that's why they're scenarios ;-)
10:16:43  <KopjeKoffie> this one has nog GRF, only the area to play
10:16:53  <planetmaker> if it's just about the terrain height, a height map is the thing you usually want rather
10:17:11  <planetmaker> No NewGRF means it uses the default industries and vehicles. What's wrong with that?
10:17:31  <KopjeKoffie> i want to add the 2cc trainset
10:18:09  <KopjeKoffie> but in early versions I can add GRF in de edit mode
10:18:19  <planetmaker> ok... <-- read that topic and make sure you understand all implications
10:18:40  <planetmaker> yes, modifying newgrfs in scenarios and savegames is rather a bug than a feature. At least not a save thing to do
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10:33:15  <planetmaker> <-- hm, the snow cover seems not yet convincing...
10:33:25  <planetmaker> (of the trees)
10:34:28  <andythenorth> ho
10:34:31  <andythenorth> indeed :)
10:34:46  <andythenorth> snow doesn't cover tree trunks
10:34:47  <Terkhen> they look too white
10:34:52  <andythenorth> trunks are vertical
10:35:08  <andythenorth> snow covers the upper part of branches and leaves
10:35:14  <planetmaker> thus the approach "use a snow layer which is limited by the tree outline" does not work well
10:35:52  <planetmaker> or at least needs further manual work on each
10:37:09  <planetmaker> well... can be helped... but MUCH more tedious :S
10:37:45  <planetmaker> hm... maybe trunks can be colour-selected, too and cut.
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10:43:40  <Chris_Booth> planetmaker are you working on OGFX+ industries?#
10:44:14  <planetmaker> sometimes
10:45:20  <Ammler> trees have way too much snow
10:45:28  <Chris_Booth> aaah, would I post feedback on
10:45:43  <Ammler> or tt-forums thread...
10:45:45  <Ammler> or here
10:46:41  <Chris_Booth> well only a slight annoyance with metal ores; Iron ore is sent to steel mill and copper ore is sent to factory as it always has been in TTD
10:47:15  <Chris_Booth> but if you load the steel mill + copper ore should this not then change the industry chain?
10:47:27  <Terkhen> change it in what way?
10:47:31  <Chris_Booth> so that copper is sent to a metal foundry?
10:47:44  <Ammler> there is a metal foundry in default?
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10:47:57  <Chris_Booth> no, but opengfx+ isn't default
10:48:02  <Chris_Booth> its an extension
10:48:06  <Ammler> isn't how?
10:48:19  <Terkhen> opengfx+ industries only uses default industries (except the shop, which was a neccesity for allowing food to be accepted in temperate)
10:48:56  <Chris_Booth> industries from all climate in one climate
10:49:05  <Chris_Booth> so you are adding things to the chain
10:49:06  <Terkhen> yes, but no new industries
10:49:19  <Chris_Booth> no but steel in none temperate
10:49:37  <Terkhen> sorry?
10:49:42  <Chris_Booth> copper needs to be refined like iron
10:49:59  <Terkhen> but copper is not refined in the default industries
10:50:04  <Chris_Booth> well steel was a temerate industry, and now you can have it in any climate
10:50:42  <Chris_Booth> just seems strange that the factory can refine copper, but not ore
10:50:59  <Chris_Booth> or on the other hand the steel mill can refine iron ore and not copper ore
10:51:08  <andythenorth> it's also strange that 8 tile trains disappear into 1 tile depots ;)
10:51:13  <andythenorth> and the sun always shines on TV
10:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that is definitely not true. there was rain in the latest NCIS episode
10:52:10  <Terkhen> we don't have plans for adding new industries or changing their behaviour in opengfx+ industries, we just wanted to allow customization inside the limits of what the default industries can do
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10:52:13  <planetmaker> <-- I'm not entirely convinced that this is much better either ;-)
10:52:46  <Terkhen> it looks definitely better but... still too much snow :P
10:53:03  <planetmaker> :-)
10:53:06  <planetmaker> still too much?
10:53:13  <planetmaker> I mean... the ground is covered 100%
10:53:46  <Chris_Booth> Terkhen for expamle with wood you change the chain so it doesn't go to saw mills in temerate if you enable the paper mill. so why if I enable the steel mill can't I send copper ore there?
10:53:56  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I barely can distinguish the tree from the background
10:54:08  <Terkhen> Chris_Booth: paper mills accept wood by default
10:54:14  <Terkhen> the steel mill does not
10:54:19  <Terkhen> does not accept copper ore*
10:54:45  <Terkhen> also, copper is not used in the production of steel
10:55:03  <Chris_Booth> I am sure it is not that hard to change that, so the copper goes to steelmill, and change the name of steelmill to metal foundry
10:55:42  <planetmaker> and the cargo from steel to metal. And...
10:56:26  <planetmaker> it makes somewhat sense, but I'm not convinced that changing this default behaviour is what we really want
10:57:55  <Chris_Booth> just a suggestion, not something that has to be done
10:58:03  <Chris_Booth> just seem a bit strange to me while playing it
11:00:10  <Terkhen> I do agree that it makes sense (this is how it works in FIRS for example), but it should not introduce big changes in the behaviour of the chains IMO
11:01:32  <KopjeKoffie> planetmaker: thank you, i have set the šset newgrf_developer_tools 1š option on
11:06:27  <planetmaker> KopjeKoffie: *sigh*. I explicitly wrote scenario_developer in that thread :S
11:06:58  <planetmaker> or do you want to write newgrfs and test them?
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11:07:42  <KopjeKoffie> I try to...
11:10:19  <planetmaker> [12:15]	KopjeKoffie	downloaded my favorite grf en some senarios
11:10:21  <planetmaker> [12:15]	KopjeKoffie	i want to add some grfs to a senario <-- this sounds rather like "hack the maps" than "write newgrfs" ;-)
11:10:22  <planetmaker> And then the newgrf developer tools are a far too big hammer
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11:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "what could ever go wrong if i use a too big hammer."
11:11:49  <planetmaker> :-P
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11:16:29  * andythenorth finds it offensive that the default assumption for not making a change is "it's too hard"
11:17:12  <andythenorth> meanwhile
11:17:19  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you need more use of lighting on the trees
11:17:29  <andythenorth> are you drawing this by hand, or filling random noise?
11:17:37  <planetmaker> yes. Obviously not using that looks bad
11:17:44  <planetmaker> it's a hand-drawn random pattern
11:17:54  <andythenorth> where do I get a png of a tree?
11:17:59  <planetmaker> copied one tree's snow and covered the plane with that
11:18:07  <planetmaker> ogfx+trees
11:18:13  <planetmaker> just clone the repo
11:18:24  * andythenorth is feeding the baby
11:18:25  <planetmaker> but there you get pcx
11:18:26  <andythenorth> ;)
11:18:34  <andythenorth> I'd suggest using more snow colours
11:18:44  <andythenorth> snow can range to quite a dark blue colour
11:18:45  <planetmaker> if you 'just' want one for experimenting... I can upload single pngs
11:19:09  <andythenorth> I was going to try fill-colour to see if that would save you time painting...
11:20:07  <planetmaker> and are originals which look better
11:20:38  <planetmaker> I think I used that snow to create my snowy plane :-P
11:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> # Acht kleine JÀgermeister fuhren gerne schnell
11:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> # Sieben fuhrn nach DÌsseldorf und einer fuhr nach Köln
11:23:03  <andythenorth> arc_tree_01_snow.png is still quite noisy
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11:24:23  <planetmaker> bad rhyme, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
11:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you expect from a drinking song :p
11:25:45  <planetmaker> :-D
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11:36:01  <Chris_Booth> planetmaker:
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11:36:11  <Chris_Booth> do you know about this bug on the diamond mine?
11:36:29  <Chris_Booth> or shall I post it in issue for the opengfx+ team?
11:36:58  <planetmaker> please make a bug report
11:37:34  <Chris_Booth> ok
11:37:41  <planetmaker> or I'll forget most likely
11:37:44  <planetmaker> :-) thanks
11:37:54  <Chris_Booth> just out by 1 pixel
11:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the building is completely wrong
11:39:23  <Terkhen> why?
11:39:50  <planetmaker> extending into the other tile...
11:39:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the ropes end in nirvana, and the building overlaps the tile in front f it?
11:40:11  <Terkhen> oh :D
11:40:22  <Terkhen> yes, that looks wrong
11:40:34  <planetmaker> which ropes end in nirvana? They go into a hole which is mostly snow covered
11:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the diamond mine, but i would expect ropes to end in a machine house with engines pulling them...
11:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the ropes don't make any sense at all
11:42:51  <Terkhen>
11:42:59  <Terkhen> ^ that is without NewGRFs
11:43:16  <peter1138> everyone knows diamonds are blue
11:43:39  <Terkhen> the small building seems to be missing
11:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: yes.
11:43:53  <andythenorth> YACD needs breakdowns off
11:43:59  <andythenorth> most of my trains are at 0%
11:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i meant
11:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i always play with breakdowns off
11:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but that has nothing to do with yacd
11:44:26  <planetmaker> hm, that would make sense, yes
11:44:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: true
11:44:45  <Terkhen> I also play without breakdowns
11:44:55  <andythenorth> my play style with YACD needs breakdowns off </correction>
11:45:04  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I'll add the second screenshot to the task
11:45:07  <peter1138> :)
11:45:07  <planetmaker> ho... so it's an opengfx+ industries bug. ho hum
11:45:33  <planetmaker> thx, Terkhen
11:45:46  <andythenorth> the link graph view definitely adds to YACD play
11:45:52  <andythenorth> I would like a demand view
11:45:54  <andythenorth> and a pony
11:46:01  <peter1138> and the moon, on a stick
11:46:06  <andythenorth> two moons please
11:46:13  * peter1138 moons andythenorth
11:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> meat from the moon meat mine?
11:46:20  <peter1138> THAT'S NO MOON
11:46:44  <andythenorth> it's good this game thing
11:46:45  <andythenorth> quite fun
11:46:46  <Terkhen> a moon made of ponies?
11:46:54  <andythenorth> hmm
11:47:02  <andythenorth> if we had roadtypes, we could have bridle paths
11:47:08  <andythenorth> and the pony express
11:47:33  <peter1138> heh
11:47:38  <Terkhen> :D
11:48:13  <peter1138> hm, bridleways for horse-drawn cart, cobbled streets in towns...
11:48:47  <Chris_Booth> you would also need ford modle T's chrashing into the horses
11:48:49  <peter1138> will you get caravans in the desert? heh
11:49:14  <peter1138> (camel style)
11:49:32  <peter1138> openttd: 4000BC
11:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause> invalid date
11:49:44  <peter1138> :(
11:50:36  <Terkhen> slaves carrying huge chunks of rock
11:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, in roman times there existed both rails and steam engines, but nobody thought of combining them to make a railway
11:51:05  <Terkhen> alternate story newgrf? :P
11:51:14  <Chris_Booth> nice
11:51:27  <Chris_Booth> openttd +romans
11:51:41  <Chris_Booth> a nice med styled land
11:51:48  <Chris_Booth> with nice roman villas
11:51:52  <Chris_Booth> and industies
11:52:14  <Eddi|zuHause> until the hunns attack
11:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and then the germans move in
11:52:56  <Chris_Booth> openttd + age of empires?
12:01:06  <andythenorth> are ford model Ts compatible with roadtype 'cobbled street'?
12:01:56  <peter1138> yeah, but the comfort-factor is low
12:02:08  <peter1138> reliability is reduced
12:02:47  <andythenorth> is there a cb to adjust reliability according to current roadtype?
12:02:54  <peter1138> no
12:06:45  <andythenorth> are there any cbs for anything to do with roadtypes? :P
12:12:17  <peter1138> no
12:14:05  <andythenorth> he :D
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12:15:27  <planetmaker> hm, yes. The spright height was not taken into account for the building of the mine, Eddi|zuHause :-)
12:16:00  <planetmaker> the building was aligned as a ground tile... which obviously is wrong ;-)
12:18:54  <planetmaker> thanks for noticing
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12:34:08  <Chris_Booth> anyone know how long from the buy out message for a company, to when it dies?
12:34:36  <Chris_Booth> I need to know this as I bought a boat with very high running costs
12:34:50  <Chris_Booth> now - 800k. making 1,000k a year
12:34:58  <Chris_Booth> and the message has just come up
12:36:49  <andythenorth> gosh
12:36:53  <andythenorth> FIRS industries are expensive :o
12:37:23  <andythenorth> also
12:37:38  <andythenorth> how does a ship with running costs 3k per year lose 99k per year?
12:37:44  <andythenorth> transfer credits?
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12:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: i think it's three consecutive quarters or something
12:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, transfer credits are particularly bad with ships, as they are much slower than any other transport
12:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: when a train gets transfer credits, the estimate is that it goes on travelling with the same speed
12:44:25  <andythenorth> hmm
12:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but when the ship picks it up, the estimate is totally wrong
12:44:31  <andythenorth> must b a difficult problem to solve?
12:44:36  <andythenorth> +e
12:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the crude solution is already there: in advanced settings you can lower the feeder share
12:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the elegant solution is more difficult, e.g.
12:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> set transfer share to something like 20%
12:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't influence the money you actually get in the end, only the accounting
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12:48:44  <andythenorth> hmm
12:48:54  <andythenorth> means I'm currently losing the game quite badly
13:05:14  <__ln__>
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13:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> "what's left of SCO will be renamed to TSG. an explanation of the acronym was not given. SCO was for Santa Cruz Operations"
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13:13:56  <planetmaker> <-- another iteration
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13:23:02  <Terkhen> nice :)
13:23:49  <planetmaker> it's a combination of yours and andy's advice: more gaps in the snow and a gradient
13:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yep, definitely an improvement
13:24:19  <Terkhen> those trees are opengfx+ trees?
13:24:23  <andythenorth> nice
13:24:47  <planetmaker> yes, the non-snowy ones are all from OpenGFX+ Trees
13:25:32  <planetmaker> this is now 10 trees, thus we'd have a full set of arctic trees
13:25:45  <Terkhen> great :)
13:25:46  <planetmaker> (actually two too many)
13:29:04  <planetmaker> Now... do I change OpenGFX' trees?
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13:34:00  <Terkhen> does that add snowed trees or both normal and snowed?
13:35:21  <planetmaker> that = ?
13:35:34  <Terkhen> your changes
13:35:48  <planetmaker> I have here a diff which changes all arctic trees within OpenGFX. Snowy and non-snowy versions
13:36:12  <Terkhen> hmm... I'm confused, what do you plan to do exactly? :P
13:36:23  <planetmaker> Changing OpenGFX' trees
13:36:59  <Terkhen> ah, not OpenGFX+ Trees
13:37:12  <planetmaker> nope.
13:37:27  <planetmaker> But the snowy versions could be incorporated there, too
13:37:34  <planetmaker> But I don't plan to do that immediately
13:37:40  <Terkhen> well, IMO they look much better than the ones in OpenGFX
13:37:50  <planetmaker> More important is to have a better base set
13:37:56  <planetmaker> yep
13:38:09  <planetmaker> even Zephyris agrees - and he drew the OpenGFX trees
13:38:16  <Terkhen> I only use OpenGFX+ Trees for improving how the trees look, the parameters never where important enough for me to modify
13:38:30  <Terkhen> IMO OpenGFX should have the better looking trees
13:38:36  <planetmaker> same here. Though it's interesting how it changes the look of forests
13:39:17  <planetmaker> Unfortunately the other climates won't be as quick
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13:39:32  <planetmaker> toyland doesn't need a change, but temperate and tropic would
13:39:56  <planetmaker> But I don't want to have the same trees in temperate and arctic really
13:40:06  <planetmaker> it's feasible, but... :-)
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13:42:18  <planetmaker> and it must be possible to up the graphical standards of OpenGFX to andy and Pikka levels ;-)
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13:42:54  <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Trees for temperate look different than arctic ones
13:43:11  <Terkhen> also, if you only change arctic they will look very different when compared to temperate
13:43:12  <planetmaker> yes, they do. It has trees for both climates
13:43:22  <planetmaker> it = ogfx+trees
13:43:27  <planetmaker> But ogfx+trees is unfinished.
13:43:34  <planetmaker> Half of the trees have no growth stages
13:43:50  <planetmaker> there's not many left which have growth stages
13:43:59  <planetmaker> I took all those ;-)
13:44:22  <planetmaker> it's even worse for tropical climate trees in ogfx+trees
13:49:32  <Terkhen> hmmm...
13:49:34  <Terkhen> I see
13:49:46  <Terkhen> no growth stages is not good at all :(
13:50:18  <planetmaker> well, all thesetrees I show here now have
13:51:37  <planetmaker> <-- he. The title screen :-)
13:54:18  <Terkhen> quite an improvement :)
13:55:02  <Terkhen> well, it will be a big contrast between arctic trees and the rest, but maybe that will motivate people to draw better ones or growth stages for the ones included in opengfx+ trees :P
13:56:35  <planetmaker> I e-mailed froix who drew those trees. Maybe he'll respond
13:56:45  <Terkhen> ok :)
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14:06:30  <planetmaker> hm, temperate climate has 19 trees as opposed to 8 of the arctic climate
14:06:35  <planetmaker> and I have only 5 :S
14:07:00  <planetmaker> So... even if I re-used all arctic ones, there'll be still 6 missing. Hm...
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14:45:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can it be that var 60 returns wrong result for articulated road vehicles?
14:46:56  <Yexo> the spec is not clear on how articulated vehicles should be counted
14:47:37  <Yexo> so whichever implementation you think is correct,it's quite possible the code does the other thing
14:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant especially: it seems to do different stuff for trains than vor rv
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14:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> for trains, it iterates v->Next(), and for RV [and other vehicles] it only counts v itself
14:50:12  <Yexo> does v->Next() iterate over all articulated parts? if so, yes, there is a bug there
14:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure that v->Next() includes articulated parts
14:54:07  <peter1138> f (v->type != VEH_TRAIN) return Engine::Get(v->engine_type)->grf_prop.local_id == parameter;
14:54:10  <peter1138> that's why
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14:56:03  <peter1138> what about aircraft? heh
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15:32:08  <planetmaker> hm...
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15:32:29  <planetmaker> it's supposed to be a birch tree, but well...
15:34:16  <Terkhen> hmm... it looks strange
15:34:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the strangeness may come from the blue background
15:34:57  <Eddi|zuHause> a "real" screenshot may be better
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15:39:27  <ChoHag> How can I add a new setting without breaking old savegames?
15:39:40  <ChoHag> Also, I hate compiling C++ apps.
15:39:42  <Yexo> increase the savegame version by 1
15:39:58  <Yexo> and set the minimum version of the new setting to the new savegame version
15:40:21  <ChoHag> Where's the savegame version defined?
15:40:31  <Yexo> saveload/saveload.cpp
15:40:31  <ChoHag> saveload.cpp?
15:40:53  <ChoHag> Is that what 'from' is in settings.ini?
15:40:57  <Yexo> yes
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15:42:45  <ChoHag> Nifty. It works.
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15:59:05  <ChoHag> Woot. A patch.
15:59:08  <ChoHag> Where can I post it?
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15:59:39  <Yexo> forums
16:00:04  <ChoHag> I know nothing of these forums, except reading things sought from google.
16:00:15  <ChoHag> Which site/area is best?
16:00:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "OpenTTD Development"
16:00:51  <ChoHag> Good plan.
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16:07:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22444 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp): -Add: When GRFs are disabled via Action E or due to GRM failure, also display an error in the GUI.
16:07:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22443 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate code for deactivating GRFs.
16:07:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22442 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: Do not popup fatal NewGRF error messages in the intro screen. The GRFs are not going to be activated there anyway and the GRF settings GUI will not display the errors either.
16:07:41  <frosch123> yay !
16:08:50  <frosch123> back to presence
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16:09:46  <planetmaker> :-)
16:09:54  <planetmaker> hello R
16:10:05  <planetmaker> s/R/frosch123/ :-)
16:10:14  <frosch123> quak :)
16:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> common typo.
16:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the keys are like right next to each other :p
16:10:33  <planetmaker> missing "f" and subsequent failure of autocomplete :-)
16:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that's how the secret agent names like "M" and "Q" developed :p
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16:14:45  <planetmaker> :-)
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16:17:54  <c_korn> hello
16:18:01  <planetmaker> hi
16:19:10  <c_korn> I am trying to compile openttd for but I am having troubles:
16:19:50  <planetmaker> try to update nforenum / grfcodec
16:19:58  <planetmaker> version 5.1 will help probably
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16:20:26  <planetmaker> a
16:20:29  <planetmaker>
16:20:40  <Yexo> either that or uninstall those tools completely
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16:30:01  <c_korn> uninstallation seems to be more simple
16:30:15  <c_korn> will I lose functionality by doing that?
16:30:24  <Yexo> no
16:30:26  <Rubidium> or... build newer nforenum/grfcodec
16:30:54  <Yexo> openttd.grf is precompiled in the svn repo, but if you have nforenum/grfcodec the build process can try to rebuild it, depending on the order in which the files where checked out
16:31:30  <Rubidium> Yexo: actually, he's using Debian's Debian build scripts which remove the grfs
16:31:45  <planetmaker> lol, they do?!
16:31:48  <Yexo> ok, didn't know that
16:32:04  <Yexo> in that case you actually do need the newer version, simply uninstalling won't work
16:32:05  <Rubidium> so he really needs grfcodec/nforenum
16:32:46  <Yexo> planetmaker: the grf is not the source, so by removing openttd.grf the scripts make sure it can be completely rebuild from source
16:32:59  <planetmaker> I know. But...
16:33:57  <Rubidium> it's just policy: build everything from source you can build from source
16:34:17  <Rubidium> and it actually is quite a good test case for grfcodec/nforenum
16:34:22  <c_korn> ok. so I need a new grfcodec
16:35:40  <ChoHag> If I add a setting and bump the savegame version, what happens when another patch uses the same version no.?
16:36:17  <Yexo> savegames from both versions will be incompatible
16:36:20  <planetmaker> c_korn: yes, also nforenum (but it's one package meanwhile)
16:36:55  <Yexo> the same actually happens if the savegame version in trunk is increased, when that happens you'll have to update your patch and chose which savegames you want to load: the ones from trunk or from the older version of your patch
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16:38:32  <ChoHag> What do you mean choose which savegames to load?
16:39:20  <Yexo> current trunk has savegame version 160
16:39:25  <ChoHag> Would I have to use my patched binary to continue my game or could they (with some amount of hackery obviously) be converted?
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16:39:57  <Yexo> so your patch would normally get savegame version 161. Not if another patch gets added to trunk and the savegame version of trunk is updated to 161 there are 2 conflicting savegame versions
16:40:04  <Yexo> version 161 from trunk and version 161 from your patch
16:40:29  <Yexo> clean trunk will only be able to load the version from trunk, in your patch you can chose whichever version you want to support, but usually not both
16:40:31  <c_korn> echo "UPX=" >> Makefile.local <-- is this still required to disable UPX compression?
16:41:14  <ChoHag> Right, so I'd update my patch to version 162, but would I have to convert the save files or could openttd load them, assuming the trunk option didn't conflict with mine.
16:42:02  <Yexo> if you update your patch to version 162 without doing anything else you would be able to load the trunk savegames with version 161 but not savegames created with your previous patch that had also version 161
16:42:23  <ChoHag> That is, can it read strings from the file to find out what is where, or are the settings stored as a binary dump of the C structure?
16:42:42  <Yexo> binary dump, at least sort-of
16:42:45  <ChoHag> Or is it More Complicated Than That?
16:44:06  <ChoHag> Well hopefully my patch will be merged soon then.
16:44:13  <planetmaker> ChoHag: the savegame saves chunks. And the meaning of them is defined by the settings struct. Unless you go great lengths or into binary hacking of savegames... you can't load patched games in trunk
16:44:25  <ChoHag> It's actually quite simple.
16:44:47  <Yexo> ChoHag: your patch is against YACD. michi_cc said that YACD won't be savegame compatible when the version in trunk is updated
16:44:52  <Yexo> so it's actually a non-issue
16:45:07  <ChoHag> Well yes, in this case when I say 'trunk' I guess I realy mean 'yacd trunk'.
16:45:08  <planetmaker> :-)
16:45:39  <planetmaker> trunk actually has only one meaning here -except specifically referred to a different one ;-)
16:45:49  <Yexo> when the savegame version of 'yacd trunk' is updated you can't load earlier versions from 'yacd trunk' anyway, so your patch make no difference
16:47:58  <ChoHag> Right.
16:48:11  <ChoHag> I should probably tag my saves with the name of the binary it was created in.
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16:50:44  <planetmaker> with patches that's a good idea
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16:52:02  <ChoHag> Well I wasn't planning on using patches, but then I couldn't build airports and transfers weren't working, so I had to use yacd, and now I keep finding things I need to fix.
16:52:13  <planetmaker> ChoHag: but... that rather looks like an issue which can be addressed by means of newgrf
16:52:27  <ChoHag> Dunno.
16:52:45  <planetmaker> if ships are too slow for you: make a newgrf which changes ship speeds
16:52:52  <Yexo> planetmaker: to be fair, same holds for plane speed
16:52:58  <ChoHag> I figured since it's duplicating existing functionality, the best place to put it is where the existing functionality is.
16:52:59  <planetmaker> Yexo: sure
16:53:15  <planetmaker> but plane speed is only there to actually make them not the absolute profit machine
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16:53:23  <ChoHag> Plus, hacking code is something I can do. Hacking GRFs means learning how to hack GRFs.
16:53:44  <planetmaker> and 1/1 is actually a ... cheat in a way, though it makes planes behave consistent
16:53:50  <ChoHag> You could say ship speed is only there to actually make them not the absolute profit drain.
16:54:02  <Terkhen> strange, if I remember correctly ships were not prepared for speeds > 256
16:54:05  <planetmaker> ChoHag: when I use ships, they're always profitable
16:54:08  <planetmaker> also with yacd
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16:54:39  <ChoHag> I'm finding it incredibly difficult to have profitable ships when YACD makes them want to travel all the way across a 1024^2 map.
16:55:11  <Yexo> why are you using ships for the complete route?
16:55:12  <planetmaker> well... I don't use them for covering distances which are better travelled by train
16:55:20  <Yexo> use a ship to get the cargo to shore, use trains afterwards
16:55:25  <planetmaker> ^^
16:55:31  <ChoHag> Well yes, I did that, but I don't like it.
16:55:33  <Yexo> or use ships to cross some part of water
16:55:43  <ChoHag> That rarely happens IRL that I know of.
16:56:04  <ChoHag> If the source and destination are by the sea, it would make sense to use ships all the way.
16:56:14  <ChoHag> Not that I have the faintest idea how the shipping industry works.
16:56:32  <Yexo> that does make sense, but only for cargo where speed doesn't matter
16:56:55  <ChoHag> Like oil.
16:56:57  <Yexo> so an alternative to your current patch would be to make the delivery price of oil indepedent on the speed
16:57:13  <planetmaker> which also works by means of newgrf ;-)
16:58:04  <Yexo> ChoHag: I have to say, your patch is good. that's rare to see from first patches :)
16:58:08  <ChoHag> It doesn't change the fact that ships travelling for so long can appear to make no profit one year and lots the next, and that oil rig ratings are affected by the time taken.
16:58:13  <planetmaker> and newgrf have one advantage: they're somewhat guaranteed to continue working throughout versions
16:58:24  <Yexo> ratings are not affected by time taken
16:58:26  <ChoHag> Yexo: Well somebody had already done the hard stuff for me.
16:58:36  <Yexo> see for how the ratings work
16:58:44  <Yexo> (yes,I love that wiki page)
16:58:52  <planetmaker> Yexo: but the annual income of a ship
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16:59:03  <Yexo> annual income is indeed a problem
16:59:04  <ChoHag> Yexo: Well one way or 'tother the oil rigs don't like me.
16:59:19  <Yexo> make sure you always have at least one ship loading and you should be fine
17:00:16  <planetmaker> <-- a yacd 1.2 game with oil being my main profit next to passengers
17:00:47  <planetmaker> indeed I make use of the transfer order at oil terminals not too distant from the oil rigs
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17:01:25  <Yexo> is there a point in using explicit transfer orders with yacd?
17:01:49  <planetmaker> I was told there is not
17:01:59  <planetmaker> when I setup routes I didn't know. And old habits die hard
17:03:03  <SmatZ> bah @ new KDE
17:03:05  <Yexo> ok, just wondering if I'd missed anything
17:03:25  <planetmaker> nope :-)
17:03:35  <c_korn> hm,the problem still exists with the new version. please note the version:
17:04:39  <Terkhen> SmatZ: if it makes you feel better, I'm getting quite annoyed with the new gnome too :)
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17:05:05  <SmatZ> Terkhen: hehe :)
17:05:07  <Yexo> Terkhen: what's wrong with the new version of gnome?
17:05:28  <ChoHag> Even at 4x speed it takes a month to get from edge to coast, and that's ine of the closer coastlines.
17:05:43  <Terkhen> mostly stuff that I don't know if I'll like or not because first I need to get used to it
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17:07:01  <ChoHag> It would be fun on 2048^2.
17:08:17  <Terkhen> I like the way of opening Activities with the mouse, I don't like that it does not open a new terminal when I click on it again
17:08:27  <Terkhen> I guess I need to learn how to tweak it
17:08:28  <c_korn> also note that I found this serious bug:
17:09:22  <Rubidium> guess you compiled it without png support
17:10:46  <Rubidium> it being grfcodec/nforenum
17:11:04  <c_korn> hum, let me see
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17:18:06  <c_korn> yay, it compiled. thanks so far. now what is the problem here? $ openttd
17:18:06  <c_korn> Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
17:18:35  <Yexo> well, did you read section 4.1 of readme.txt?
17:20:09  <c_korn> oh, so the openttd.grf is not enough any more.
17:20:51  <Yexo> it never was
17:21:11  <c_korn> hum
17:22:05  <Yexo> what you need is a graphics baseset. There are 2 options currently: OpenGFX and (original TTD graphics files + openttd.grf)
17:23:11  <Yexo> openttd.grf is included with openttd, so what you actually need is either opengfx of the original ttd graphics files
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17:26:32  <c_korn> hm, how did 1.0.4 do it? it just runs here. probably I need to change the package accordingly
17:27:13  <Yexo> probably you have either opengfx or the original graphics files in the data directory of your 1.0.4 installation dir
17:27:23  <Yexo> instead of in ~/.openttd/data/
17:27:33  <c_korn> ah, there is an openttd-opengfx package
17:27:56  <c_korn>
17:34:45  <planetmaker> you could just download it and put it into your ~/.openttd/data dir...
17:34:52  <planetmaker> if you don't want to compile it ;-)
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17:39:52  <c_korn> nother serious bugs ;)
17:40:19  <SmatZ> "Agh!" ?
17:40:26  <SmatZ> not "Argh!" ?
17:42:10  <Yexo> c_korn: please let me know when you're done, so I can commit all those spell fixes in one go
17:43:01  <c_korn> SmatZ: I let it up to you to fix it ;)
17:43:31  * planetmaker prefers 'Argh!'. But then it's completely irrelevant whether Agh or Argh
17:44:07  <c_korn> ok, now the menu opens up. but there is a warning: dbg: [grf] OpenTTD GUI graphics sprites are missing
17:45:20  <Chris_Booth> 'Argh' is what Priates say 'Agh' is an expression of disgust
17:45:33  <planetmaker> that's ok, but it indicates that you installed a too old OpenGFX version
17:45:34  <Rubidium> that's a tell for a too old version of opengfx
17:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22445 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
17:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by planetmaker
17:45:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
17:47:27  <planetmaker> though, c_korn don't worry: just use the ingame content download to update it
17:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> how does one access that on a server?
17:48:11  <planetmaker> !rcon content etc
17:48:11  *** planetmaker was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
17:48:12  <Yexo> via the commandline
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17:48:22  <Chris_Booth> lol
17:48:25  <c_korn> Yexo: these are all spelling mistakes lintian found. with them fixed lintian does not complain anything in the grfcodec/nforenum packages (and I enabled pedantic mode!)
17:48:28  <planetmaker> :-D
17:48:38  <planetmaker> well. By that :-)
17:48:50  <Chris_Booth> DorpsGek being to efficient
17:50:55  <Yexo> c_korn: thanks, all fixed now
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17:52:44  <c_korn> np, openttd is running fine now. thanks for your help ! should be published on soon
17:52:56  <planetmaker> sweet :-)
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18:16:54  <peter1138> on wht?
18:17:51  <peter1138> ah, because ubuntu users are incapable of getting and installing debs...
18:21:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ubuntu, the aol of linuxes
18:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> linices?
18:22:41  <Alberth> linuces
18:22:54  <Marble> *chuckles* Ubuntu the AOL.. Yeah. Except without me too! caps-lock and a/s/l hotkeys. ;)
18:22:57  <Alberth> or unices, even :)
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18:41:20  <frosch123> hmm, do americans have some special unit for measuring fractions of seconds (time)?
18:41:40  <frosch123> something like 1/24 seconds?
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18:41:54  <HAL9001> Sometimes people say half a second, but most things are measured in milliseconds
18:42:49  <Alberth> they use a decimal system all of a sudden? :)
18:43:42  <Rubidium> Alberth: using decimal with time?
18:43:47  <Rubidium> tss...
18:44:16  <Rubidium> 100 seconds an hour?
18:44:20  <Rubidium> 10 hours a day?
18:44:26  <Rubidium> 10 days a week?
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18:44:36  <Alberth> no, only for fractions of seconds, it seems
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18:44:55  <Alberth> HAL9001: what about fractions of a minute?
18:45:22  <peter1138> 1/60th is common, i hear
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18:45:46  <HAL9001> I don't know of anything...people say half a minute, 30 seconds, 15 seconds, quarter of a minute, etc
18:46:28  <Alberth> peter1138: good point, even European people do that :)
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19:04:24  <planetmaker> 60 is nice. Divisible by 2,3,5,6,10,12,15,20,30 :-)
19:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> even the babylonians knew that
19:16:02  <frosch123> 4
19:16:13  <Alberth> 2+3j
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19:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly certains the babylonians didn't know imaginary numbers yet :p
19:17:02  <blathijs> Alberth: Hmm, you're an electrical engineer? :-)
19:17:07  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, but they knew how to spell them.
19:17:11  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, newer ages learned you can also divide it by 2/3 :p
19:17:32  <frosch123> blathijs: haha, exactly my thought :p
19:17:53  <Alberth> blathijs: I studied it a long time ago, but found CS more interesting :)
19:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking "physicist"
19:18:15  <blathijs> hehe
19:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> only weird people use "j" for the imaginary unit :p
19:19:10  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 'i' is used by mathematicians, 'j' by engineers
19:19:11  <frosch123> yeah, in cs i learned that the direct analogy of putting "→" above vector variables is putting "p_" in front of pointer variables
19:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i know
19:19:51  <blathijs> frosch123: heh
19:20:06  <frosch123> hmm, actually, i did not learn that in cs, i observed it from my work mates...
19:20:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's called a "naming convention".
19:20:10  <Prof_Frink> Alberth: What about roman engineers?
19:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: my analysis professor used old german letters for vectors
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19:20:48  <Alberth> Prof_Frink: they would do that too, every time they used imaginary numbers
19:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ex falsi quodlibet (or something)
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19:21:40  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, i rather meant the fact that there are people who completely mess up with pointers when they are not prefixed, just like there are people who completely mess up vector calculus when not using →
19:21:44  <planetmaker> oh uh... old German letters as vectors... that calls bad memories
19:21:46  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I never studied that :)
19:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it's always fun to make statements about the members of the empty set
19:21:55  <planetmaker> The whole theoretical optics were lectured in that.
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19:22:15  <planetmaker> But what is E, B, H, A...? :-(
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19:22:38  <Alberth> planetmaker: magnetic field properties?
19:22:51  <frosch123> "B" is the letter used by spam authors when they try to write spam in german and they have no ß :p
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19:23:00  <planetmaker> also, yes. But it all makes no sense when they all look alike :-P
19:23:08  <Alberth> (I never understood that theory though)
19:23:16  <planetmaker> like wigglesomething
19:23:45  <planetmaker> Alberth: actually it's not magnetic fields, but the electromagnetic field, so both combined...
19:23:54  <planetmaker> E and B
19:24:17  <planetmaker> depending on how fast you move it might seem one or the other ;-)
19:24:18  <Alberth> good point :)
19:24:35  <planetmaker> and magnetic monopoles would be nice :-P
19:24:57  <Alberth> a challenge for a planet creator ;)
19:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't you watched The Big Bang Theory? :p
19:25:32  <planetmaker> Alberth: I leave magnetic monopoles to others... I don't need them ;-)
19:26:59  <Alberth> they would ruin the magnetic field around the planets ;)
19:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "you just take a magnetic dipol and cut it in half" :p
19:32:21  <Terkhen> sounds easy enough :P
19:32:45  <Alberth> nature blocked that simple work-around :p
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20:38:40  <elmz> aww, crap
20:38:56  <elmz> another mouse button ruined
20:39:15  <elmz> damn one-way signals :P
20:40:34  <Wolf01> ctrl+drag
20:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i never need that...
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20:45:58  <Wolf01> I put just the needed signals
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21:14:22  <frosch123> night
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21:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause>
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21:37:59  <Terkhen> good night
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21:39:20  <planetmaker> good night
21:49:55  <elmz> Wolf01: I drag on main lines, but I build massive stations and there I have to build every signal one at a time
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