Log for #openttd on 14th May 2011:
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01:56:33  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:11:18  <Terkhen> good morning
07:15:00  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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07:24:07  <ChoHag> Given a Station pointer, [how] could I tell that it's an oil rig?
07:24:42  <ChoHag> s/that/whether/
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07:30:17  <Alberth> Don't know, it may be possible, but I'd do that through the industries
07:30:33  <Alberth> s/do that/find oilrigs/
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07:32:03  <Alberth> why do you want to know?
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07:32:52  <ChoHag> I mean in the code.
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07:34:39  <Alberth> yeah, but why is that info important?
07:34:53  <Alberth> a station knows what it provides and accepts
07:35:08  <Alberth> it does not matter whether it is an oil rig, it seems to me
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07:35:57  <ChoHag> I want to make them deliver all their cargo to their attached station, regardless of rating.
07:36:19  <ChoHag> I don't know what effect that'll have on multiple companies using one rig, I'll see what happens, but nothing else seems logical.
07:36:34  <andythenorth> morningks
07:36:34  <ChoHag> Why would a rig send its oil anywhere but its own built-in station?
07:37:00  <Alberth> if you build another station close enough, the oil goes there too
07:37:07  <Alberth> morning andy
07:37:32  <ChoHag> Yes, but oil rigs are by definition in the middle of the sea.
07:37:38  <Alberth> I would expect the rating functionality in the industry production code
07:37:59  * Alberth has plenty of money to make land at arbitrary places :p
07:38:21  <ChoHag> Even if in real life a train station was build right near an oil rig after the insanely high expense of building an island, the rig wouldn't deliver there. That would just be weird when it has a docking port Right There.
07:39:38  <Alberth> OpenTTD does not care about real life
07:40:01  <Alberth> (luckily)
07:40:14  <ChoHag> I noticed that when TT first came out.
07:40:31  <ChoHag> Lots of things were comical even them.
07:40:32  <ChoHag> then
07:42:12  <Alberth> Not caring about real world gives freedom to leave out the boring parts, and simplify things. However, it also means that "in real life it is done in this way too" is no argument to add something to the game.
07:42:30  <Alberth> (or forbid something, for that matter)
07:43:22  <ChoHag> Well what I'm fiddling with is only a problem because of the way the game works (ie. oil rigs can apparently never reach 100% rating).
07:43:36  <ChoHag> Then I got to thinking that the rating system, while fine, makes no sense for oil rigs
07:43:58  <ChoHag> So for my next code dive I am finding out stuff about stations and oil rigs, with the vague purpose of working on that.
07:44:24  <ChoHag> Mostly to increase familiarity with the code, but also hopefully fix something I find illogical.
07:44:26  <Alberth> oil rig is an industry, so that's where you want to change things
07:45:06  <Alberth> in a sense it does not matter where the oil flows to from the industry point of view
07:45:10  <andythenorth> have fun with industry code :P
07:45:35  <andythenorth> industry code is one of the more spaghetti-laden areas I've explored
07:45:52  <Terkhen> I don't remember any limitation in that sense for the oil rig
07:45:54  <ChoHag> Actually it seems to by in station_cmd.c - MoveGoodsToStation
07:46:03  <Terkhen> probably it is caused because they rely in ships, which are slow
07:46:19  <ChoHag> Ignore spelling mistakes. It's early.
07:46:30  <Alberth> we always do :)
07:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: if you want to mess with station rating specific to oil rigs, what do you intend to do when one builds a station next to the oil rig?
07:49:42  <ChoHag> Ignore it. Don't do that, it's silly.
07:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and why is not reaching 100% a problem?
07:50:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and why is it more serious problem with oil rigs than any other industry?
07:50:41  <ChoHag> Actually I've no idea, I expect the rig's own station would effectively have a 100% rating all the time, whatever that means for other stations is what will happen.
07:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can change the station rating via newgrf
07:51:17  <ChoHag> Because I recently built a fleet of oil tankers, so they're my latest grief.
07:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: if oil rig has a 100% rating, cargo would simply pile up even if nobody is transporting it (any more)
07:52:03  <ChoHag> And when I read up on game mechanics, the way it worked made little sense.
07:52:15  <peter1138> use helicopters :D
07:52:22  <ChoHag> Oil rigs would by definition send all their cargo to their attached station.
07:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> gtg. but you likely are doing The Wrong Thing (tm)
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07:52:37  <Alberth> station ratings are not universally agreed as 'fine' :p
07:52:41  <ChoHag> Probably, but got to start somewhere.
07:52:56  * andythenorth is troubled by station ratings
07:53:00  * peter1138 chokes to death
07:53:11  * andythenorth waves
07:53:18  * Alberth rescues peter1138 just in time
07:53:25  <peter1138> too late, the dog farted :(
07:53:28  <peter1138> oohh
07:53:33  * peter1138 returns as as zombie?
07:53:34  * andythenorth sends a registered first aider
07:53:41  <ChoHag> Maybe when I've looked into this I'll have a better idea of the ways in which station ratings suck.
07:53:52  <andythenorth> the concept is fine
07:54:08  <andythenorth> I'm not sure how you'd allocate cargo between multiple stations without them
07:54:16  <ChoHag> I have a vague idea about station capacities, too.
07:54:30  <andythenorth> but the calculation is based on some game goals from 1994 which might not be valid
07:54:34  <ChoHag> In-line bus stations with 2000+ passengers makes no sense.
07:54:48  <ChoHag> But that's for later.
07:56:20  <andythenorth> "Max speed of last vehicle entering station"
07:56:23  <andythenorth> pah
07:56:33  <ChoHag> Yeah that's what got me to find the problem.
07:56:41  <andythenorth> "Statue in town of station"
07:56:58  <ChoHag> The fastest non-passenger ship is 25mph, which means an instant negative rating for the fastest, newest ship.
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07:57:12  <Terkhen> ships have a bonus to their ratings IIRC
07:57:24  <andythenorth> why can't I just pay for permanent advertising?
07:57:35  <andythenorth> instead of going round each town every few months?
07:58:34  <andythenorth> Terkhen: far as I understand, the bonus is not connected to speed, just days since last pickup
07:58:53  <andythenorth> but the rating system means you should always have a vehicle waiting, far as I can see
08:00:03  * andythenorth ponders making a test grf for station ratings
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08:00:58  <ChoHag> Terkhen: Only in terms of how long since cargo was picked up.
08:01:15  <ChoHag> The fastest ship still reduces the rating.
08:02:01  <Terkhen> having a slow vehicle does not reduce the rating, it just does not give a high bonus (or a bonus at all)
08:02:13  <Terkhen> this can be fixed via callbacks anyways
08:02:17  <ChoHag> Same difference.
08:02:31  <ChoHag> The point is you can have the fastes, newest, shiniest oil tanker, and nobody cares.
08:02:37  <Terkhen> so it should not be fixed via code
08:03:21  <andythenorth> hmm
08:03:26  <andythenorth>
08:03:33  <andythenorth> "Currently, you can only use variables 10 and 18 for your decision, since neither vehicle nor station variables are available for a cargo callback. As soon as the architecture of TTDPatch allows this, the callback will be given access to the station and the last vehicle that entered."
08:03:35  <andythenorth> :(
08:04:06  <ChoHag> With the reported speed doubled, my maxed out oil rig now has an ~ 80-85 rating and is actually capable of growing.
08:04:37  <Terkhen> andythenorth: that does not sound very promising :)
08:04:53  <ChoHag> Before with new ships, enough of them to be constantly present to load delivering to all destinations the rig wants to go, the delivered cargo was still under 67% and the rig was shrinking.
08:05:29  <Terkhen> andythenorth: you can still get some stuff, such as the type and the speed of the last vehicle
08:05:35  <ChoHag> Maybe this is only apparent in yacd, where the cargo must be divided up.
08:05:44  <Terkhen> or the cargo waiting at the station
08:05:52  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I think it might be worth trying
08:06:05  <andythenorth> I can't do much on it today, but I want to have a look at this
08:06:24  <Terkhen> I have custom ratings on my todo list for opengfx+ industries too
08:06:52  <Terkhen> I was thinking on three settings for the different cargos (the same separations that yacd does)
08:07:02  <Terkhen> but I don't know which custom ratings options there should be
08:07:38  <andythenorth> I want to tie them to FIRS economies, along with payment rates
08:07:56  <Terkhen> oh, that makes sense
08:07:58  <andythenorth> so in one economy coal might favour fast transportation, and in another slow
08:08:25  <Terkhen> there is a callback for custom payment too IIRC
08:08:42  <andythenorth> yes, although I've never figured out a use for that yet
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08:09:12  <Terkhen> yes, unless you find that you need something special for one of the economies the existing three parameters should be enough
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08:20:15  <andythenorth> wrt cb 39, the only uses I can think of right now are: - check for certain special vehicles / properties of vehicles in consist (not currently possible)
08:20:20  <planetmaker> hm, batch-saving only one layer of a gimp image is not what I want :D
08:20:26  <andythenorth> - check for certain special tiles of station
08:20:58  <Terkhen> that would be interesting, yes
08:21:18  <andythenorth> so e.g. if the station has a post office there is a better profit
08:21:33  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon does that, it's fun, but ultimately doesn't add a lot to gameplay
08:21:43  <planetmaker> fun is enough
08:21:46  <Terkhen> planetmaker: are you trying gimp batch scripts? does it looks promising?
08:22:04  <planetmaker> I'm trying that, yes. I think it's feasible and might be a good thing
08:22:17  <Terkhen> good :)
08:22:43  <planetmaker> but it will require each xcf to be accompanied with a special script as far as I see it
08:22:48  <Terkhen> for opengfx+ road vehicles it would mean changing from lots of pngs to a few xcf files
08:22:50  <planetmaker> But well... that's code :-)
08:22:56  <planetmaker> yep, not only there
08:23:11  <Terkhen> yes... that's one of the cons IMO
08:23:29  <Terkhen> but I would have preferred to do everything with gimp and code how pngs are generated than actually creating all of them by hand
08:23:33  <planetmaker> I don't think it's really a 'con'
08:23:48  <planetmaker> those scripts would basically define which layers need to be visible to create <whatever> image
08:23:57  <planetmaker> that's more / additional info which currently is lost
08:24:00  <Terkhen> learning a new language is always something to consider :)
08:24:11  <Terkhen> could we make a generic script and pass to them which layers we want for each png somehow?
08:24:29  <planetmaker> Probably feasible. But I'm not there yet
08:24:41  <Terkhen> errr, s/them/it/, I need my coffee, brb
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08:32:02  <Wolf01> hello
08:32:07  <Markk> Hai
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08:36:29  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 and Markk
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08:36:42  <Terkhen> planetmaker: that would be awesome :)
08:38:13  <planetmaker> ideally we'd have a file with lines like
08:38:27  <planetmaker> png-file source-file layer1, layer2, ...
08:38:39  <planetmaker> for each png file one such line
08:41:23  <Terkhen> it would be simple to modify and extend them then
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09:11:37  <SliGo> hi
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09:11:49  <Alberth> hi
09:11:49  <Terkhen> hi SliGo
09:15:24  <SliGo> what a nice chat room it is
09:15:41  <Alberth> nice and quiet :)
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09:26:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22451 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Test for bridges and tunnels during the first pass only while terraforming (HackaLittleBit)
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09:39:07  <Alberth> too quiet perhaps :)
09:39:52  <Terkhen> quiet == boring
09:40:39  <Terkhen> this chat room has been surprisingly drama free lately :P
09:41:50  <SmatZ> hockeeeeeey
09:41:58  <SmatZ> maybe pe
09:42:09  <SmatZ> ople are watching hockey instead of chatting and playing openttd
09:43:16  * Terkhen suspects that playing hockey with his code would be more interesting than completing it
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10:08:59  <andythenorth> quiet does == boring
10:09:03  * andythenorth goes shopping
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10:37:55  <heffer> today i wondered if Rollercoaster Tycoon is based off the same engine as TTD?
10:44:53  <frosch123> yes
10:45:32  <frosch123> take a look at cs' page
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10:59:26  <Alberth> at least RCT1 and RCT2
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11:49:30  <frosch123> hmm... there is still no released station newgrf with custom foundations, right?
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12:14:29  <andythenorth> we could add them in CHIPS?
12:20:34  <ChoHag> How do you use a town names grf?
12:20:37  <ChoHag> It's in the list...
12:21:09  <Terkhen> you add it to your newgrf list and then select the town names you want to use in options
12:21:22  <ChoHag> It's not showing up.
12:22:04  <Alberth> where
12:22:14  <ChoHag> In game options, town names dropdown.
12:22:24  <ChoHag> Oh now it is.
12:22:33  <ChoHag> I clicked apply extra hard.
12:22:43  <Alberth> :)
12:23:13  <ChoHag> Bah!
12:23:24  <ChoHag> Now everything's called '?????' or some variation thereof.
12:23:44  <ChoHag> Are there font grfs?
12:23:44  <Terkhen> you selected a town names grf that requires a unicode font
12:24:36  <Terkhen> no, you have to set the font you want to use in openttd.cfg
12:25:07  <Terkhen> <--- you could also try this patch
12:25:30  <ChoHag> I'll check that out later.
12:25:43  <ChoHag> Right now I need to get SWMBO hooked before she gets bored and goes away.
12:36:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22452 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_spritegroup.h newgrf_station.cpp): -Fix (r18708): Zero register 0x100 as specified before resolving custom station foundations.
12:38:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22453 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h station_cmd.cpp): -Feature(ette): Implement variable 18 for custom station foundations.
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12:39:41  <SliGo>  :|
12:43:58  <Alberth> welcome back
12:44:20  <SliGo> yeah thanks
12:45:11  <SliGo> so you are from croatia aren't you?
12:45:31  <Alberth> not that I am aware of :)
12:45:49  <SliGo> take a look around
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13:12:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22454 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h station_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Deduplicate GetCustomStationGroundRelocation() into GetCustomStationRelocation() and only call it if actually needed.
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14:55:19  <michi_cc> Hmm, rain mixed with hail, interesting...
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15:08:59  <andythenorth> michi_cc: think I might have a cargo dist bug...
15:09:20  <andythenorth> cargo disappearing at stations if a link is broken
15:09:33  <andythenorth> known issue?
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15:12:28  <michi_cc> Known feature more like for now as I'm not sure what to do instead that can't be abused somehow.
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15:16:01  <andythenorth> what's the reason for it?
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16:01:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22455 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix (r22286): x != y
16:02:49  <frosch123> you should build more stations in NW-SE direction!
16:03:34  <frosch123> hmm, does not even matter, you should generally build more stations
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16:33:46  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Simply keeping them forever is no option, and expiring them after a longer wait means iterating all the cargo packets all the time. And converting them to unrouted packets can be used for cheating. (Don't wanna transport coal over the whole map? Just make an alibi link, wait for cargo, delete the link and transport to somehwere nearer.9
16:34:26  <andythenorth> ok
16:34:53  <andythenorth> so a crashed vehicle would cause all en-route cargo to be lost (assuming not replaced quickly)
16:45:05  <andythenorth> and assuming it's the only link somewhere in the chain
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17:25:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22456 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Codechange: Derive NewGRFSpriteLayout from DrawTileSprites for spritelayouts allocated on the heap, and make use of constructors and destructors.
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17:33:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22457 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Make the NewGRFSpriteLayout a direct member of TileLayoutSpriteGroup instead of allocating it separately.
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17:45:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22458 /trunk/src/lang/ (lithuanian.txt swedish.txt):
17:45:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 10 changes by Fretta
17:45:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Ledel
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18:35:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22459 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Typo fixes and doxygen markup improvements.
18:38:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22460 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp group.h openttd.h station_cmd.cpp): -Doc: Semantic documentation fixes, and doxygen additions (partly by planetmaker).
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19:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> oh... it's song contest again...
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19:59:36  <__ln__> france will win
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20:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> france has an interesting song, but i kinda doubt that it'll generate a lot of votes
20:21:30  <__ln__> lena's song was also interesting, but not the winner type of song, i'm afraid
20:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i think last year there was quite some hype that wasn't really due to the song...
20:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> someone should tell britain that boy bands was in the 90's
20:26:39  * __ln__ voted for Lena last year
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20:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i never actually voted...
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20:30:48  <__ln__> there were 3 other finns and 4 germans at my place watching the contest last year, so it was a nice experience to have germany actually win that time
20:34:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i never was a fan of the idea to send the same person again...
20:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and the song is rather of the kind that you need to hear multiple times to like it
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20:49:14  <__ln__> ukraine wasn't bad either
20:52:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "Japanese steal 604 million yen (~5 mio €) in cash, carrying them away in 70 bags"
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21:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really have a favourite song this year
21:22:55  <__ln__> are base jumps legal in germany?
21:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anyone forbids it...
21:29:25  <Sacro> *coughs* tactical voting
21:29:54  <peter1138> it aint AV...
21:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: of course it's illegal to access buildings without permission
21:30:20  <ChoHag> Why do I have (in yacd) passangers at one station trying to transfer at another station on their way to the station they started at?
21:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and "air traffic" above a certain height must be registered
21:33:54  <ChoHag>
21:34:03  <ChoHag> Am I just misreading it?
21:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: "via" is: "the train stops at this station next", and "transfer at" is "people get off at this station"
21:36:35  <ChoHag> So they're waiting at Cairo, they want the train going through Seoul so they can get off at Cairo?
21:37:09  <Terkhen> hmm... maybe they are local passengers from Cairo
21:37:43  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: just that one of the "post cards" contained a base jump off a wind mill
21:37:53  <ChoHag> There's only one stop in Cairo.
21:38:01  <ChoHag> I started a new game to look into this weirdness.
21:38:44  <Terkhen> ChoHag: that's what I mean: a passenger wants to go from Cairo to Cairo
21:38:56  <Terkhen> since there is no line from Cairo to Cairo, they pick up a very wrong alternative
21:40:53  <ChoHag> Right, so that would be a bug then?
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21:42:24  <Terkhen> reporting the situation to the yacd thread will not hurt
21:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> include save game, if possible
21:43:15  <ChoHag> Ah yes good point.
21:43:17  * ChoHag saves
21:51:09  <ChoHag> Heh I think the find-the-nearest-town function may be a bit broken.
21:51:38  <ChoHag> Airport slap bang in one city has the name of a nearby town.
21:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the north corner is what counts
21:54:49  <ChoHag> I'd still say it's close to Moscow than Zurich, but only just.
21:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the distance function is not necessary euclidean
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22:01:38  <__ln__> congrats Terkhen
22:02:31  <Terkhen> hmm? thanks, but why? :P
22:02:56  <__ln__> Terkhen: for getting 12 points and not being on the last position anymore
22:04:12  * Terkhen does not follow that contest
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22:06:09  <Terkhen> I have no clue of who is our candidate this year, but if (s)he is like the ones we had in previous years we probabaly deserve last position
22:07:18  <__ln__> it was some chick
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22:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting that anybody outside germany remembers the "Danke Anke!" phrase :p
22:09:27  <__ln__> another 12 to spain from your other neighbours
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22:16:58  <__ln__> that israeli guy had practiced german at home in advance
22:17:35  <glx> I always forget israel is in europe :)
22:18:05  <__ln__> me too, i thought it's a US state
22:18:20  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: it's not really geographical europe
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22:19:11  <Terkhen> it is considered in europe for anything else besides this contest?
22:21:59  <Eddi|zuHause> nope
22:22:16  <asilv> it is part of europe in most sports too, would be too much trouble with arab countries otherwise
22:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it's some kind of rule that members of the european broadcasting union can take part, and there's some crude longitude/latitude rule for this
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22:32:38  * __ln__ checks the map to see where is ajerbaijan
22:33:56  <Eddi|zuHause> east of turkey, south of russia
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22:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> caucasus
22:34:40  <__ln__> north of iran
22:35:21  <__ln__> at the heart of europe
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23:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> we should impose the ESC voting system for something like electing the european president :p
23:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> each country nominates a candidate, and you can't vote for the one from your country
23:15:21  <Terkhen> good night
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