Log for #openttd on 18th May 2011:
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01:39:48  <Wolf01> 'night all
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04:44:57  <pikka> o
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05:36:36  <peter1138> p
05:37:48  *** KJN [~chatzilla@ip-89-174-40-90.multimo.pl] has joined #openttd
05:38:10  <KJN> Hi guys, is there a way to fix a "referncing invalid vehicle" thing (with savegames) on my own?
05:50:56  <Terkhen> good morning
05:58:49  <KJN> Is there any OpenTTD expert out there?
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06:10:28  <planetmaker> moin
06:12:47  <planetmaker> KJN: try 'resetengines' in the console. But you only get invalid vehicles if you ignored a big red warning message
06:13:13  <KJN> I didn't.
06:13:32  <KJN> My computer crushed after beeing "sleeped" on several occasions.
06:14:10  <KJN> I restarted it. Reopened TTD and show some savegames with "chunk something" and all the rest with that vehicle warning.
06:14:23  <KJN> show=saw
06:15:42  <KJN> Where should I open this console? I cannot load any game right now...
06:16:11  <planetmaker> thus you agreed to them appearing ;-)
06:16:45  <KJN> The only red warning massege i the one I see when trying to load a game!
06:16:54  <KJN> And this is a small one.
06:17:12  <KJN> I don;t even know what taht "big red warning" looks like!
06:19:04  <planetmaker> my suspicion is that you change newgrfs at some stage in those savegames
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06:19:19  <andythenorth> hmm
06:19:27  <andythenorth> with YACD, power stations might make more sense
06:19:29  <planetmaker> but you could make one of those savegames available.
06:19:55  <KJN> No, I can't.
06:19:59  <peter1138> *crashed
06:19:59  <KJN> That's a problem.
06:20:28  <planetmaker> er...?
06:20:31  <planetmaker> well.
06:21:04  <planetmaker> are your savegames top secret?
06:21:32  <KJN> All the savegames I have (or those not older than two days at least) are: either unknown chunk type or invalid vehicle.
06:21:46  <KJN> No they are obviously not :)
06:22:04  <planetmaker> [08:19]	planetmaker	but you could make one of those savegames available. <-- where's then the problem with that?
06:22:32  <KJN> What do you mean "available"? Available to you, you mean?
06:22:37  <planetmaker> yes
06:22:43  <KJN> Of course I can!
06:22:44  <planetmaker> i.e. give me a link to one :-)
06:23:20  <planetmaker> KJN: what version of OpenTTD do you use?
06:23:29  <planetmaker> and which did you use to create those savegames?
06:24:05  <KJN> Ok. You want me to upload it somehere, mail it or post it?
06:24:19  <KJN> Bot the program and savegames are 1.1.0
06:24:27  <planetmaker> you'll get 'invalid chunks' if you used non-official, i.e. patched versions of OpenTTD, which usually are incompatible
06:24:48  <planetmaker> uploading it somewhere sounds fine
06:25:07  <KJN> Alle I have is from official OpenTTD website. i don;t even use extras of any sorts.
06:25:16  <KJN> Give me sec.
06:30:04  <KJN> I'm sending all of them just for any case.
06:31:11  <planetmaker> o_O
06:31:13  <KJN> utosave15 is probably tha latest (probably since it's that unknown chunk).
06:31:57  <KJN> The link is http://www.na-wczoraj.pl/openttd/ but please wait for autosave15 (there already some of them uploaded there).
06:37:52  <planetmaker> I see now what you mean...
06:38:32  <peter1138> shame your directory list doesn't include timestamps
06:38:40  <planetmaker> :-)
06:40:21  <planetmaker> but good question... how old are these autosaves according to you filemanager, KJN ?
06:40:49  <KJN> I'll take a look.
06:41:12  <KJN> So:
06:41:30  <KJN> the oldest autosave0 is today 5:04
06:41:56  <planetmaker> hm
06:42:02  <KJN> the newest autosave15 is 6:06
06:43:07  <KJN> Autosaves monthly. No wonder that all of them are from today.
06:44:13  <KJN> I also put one savegame from yesterday (not autosave).
06:44:55  <planetmaker> same issue.
06:45:17  <planetmaker> where did you get your openttd version from?
06:47:55  <KJN> openttd official website I guess
06:48:02  <KJN> Almost sure in fact.
06:48:08  <peter1138> almost?
06:48:44  <KJN> Had a previous version, read the post somewhere there's a noewer one and went to openttd.org
06:49:24  <KJN> I might have used a link provided but I doubt it. I usually prefer downloading things from official sites muself.
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06:49:51  <KJN> Nothing suspicious here, trust me.
06:50:00  <planetmaker> well, I'm unfortunately out of clues for now; I don't manage to unpack the savegames at this moment, thus no hex editing and I've not seen this behaviour before from official release versions
06:50:23  <planetmaker> does it work for new savegames you create?
06:50:34  <KJN> How about those which show invalid vehicle and not unkwon chunk?
06:50:45  <KJN> No success either?
06:50:51  <planetmaker> no :-(
06:50:58  <planetmaker> you don't use newgrfs, right?
06:51:20  <KJN> I'll check just to be 100% sure.
06:51:38  <planetmaker> I'd have expected that when loading very old savegames with newgrfs which did not yet save their use in the savegame.
06:51:50  <KJN> No I don;t. Just chcecked.
06:52:32  <peter1138> they're all missing lots of chunks
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06:53:15  <KJN> Te thing is I use vanilla version straight from the "box". and I'm really pissed off 'cos I was trying a new strategy in this game to find out if it's better than a standard one.
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06:53:58  <KJN> I spend several days of carefull planning. Normally I would not give a damn and start a new game simply.
06:54:04  <planetmaker> I understand that
06:55:06  <peter1138> do you have a save of the last working version?
06:55:20  <KJN> I found the last version wroking. It's from the 15th.
06:55:48  <KJN> Funny :) I typed the answer at the time you typed a question :)
06:55:54  <peter1138> :)
06:56:16  <planetmaker> which save is that?
06:56:25  <KJN> You don't have it. upload?
06:56:30  <planetmaker> autosave15?
06:56:42  <planetmaker> or the non-autosave?
06:57:03  <KJN> No, no. Not an autosave.
06:57:12  <KJN> All autosaves are corrupted.
06:57:51  <KJN> It's Agnir TRA 1993
06:59:11  <planetmaker> ah, it didn't show up right then. Got it now
07:00:10  <KJN> It dodn't since I uploaded it after your request.
07:00:35  <planetmaker> :-)
07:11:40  <KJN> Be back in 3 minutes.
07:18:23  <KJN> I'm back (and patient) - take any time you need to restore soth of that. And if you do... I'll name a child after you! :)
07:19:46  <planetmaker> :-D
07:22:04  <peter1138> zomg, a desync
07:22:38  <peter1138> but i'm using yacd
07:22:41  <peter1138> so it could be that
07:24:09  <peter1138> meh, and again
07:24:58  <planetmaker> desync?
07:25:03  <planetmaker> you're playing MP yacd?
07:25:07  <peter1138> yeah
07:25:14  <planetmaker> :-)
07:25:42  <peter1138> i dunno if it is actually yacd or not
07:25:47  <peter1138> but i'm not using any newgrfs
07:27:25  <dihedral> good morning :-)
07:28:05  <Sacro> yacd?
07:28:55  <Terkhen> I played yacd 1.0 with a friend for an hour and we had no desyncs
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07:36:11  <KJN> planetmaker: Any luck? Or you just simply don't want my child to have stupid name?
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07:36:47  <planetmaker> no luck, I'm afraid
07:36:57  <KJN> Are we giving up?
07:37:22  <planetmaker> for now I will, as I've work work stuff to do. And I still have no idea how that could come by
07:37:37  <KJN> Me neither.
07:37:40  <planetmaker> What would really help us is a way how you manage to create the broken savegames
07:37:45  <KJN> Thanks for yot time and effort.
07:37:48  <planetmaker> If you can willingly cause that...
07:37:56  <planetmaker> that'll probably help a lot
07:38:30  <KJN> Well I was surprised myself.
07:38:43  <planetmaker> like 'take this savegame, do that, save'. But... I'd really wonder if it will be that easy. Others would have noticed that, too, then
07:38:44  <KJN> It's never happened before.
07:39:16  <KJN> I don;t think it will work. 3 days has passd since it saved correctly.
07:39:32  <KJN> How can you follow everything I dod?
07:39:36  <KJN> *did
07:39:40  <planetmaker> I can't
07:40:11  <KJN> One hint: the computer has been put to sleep on several occassions with the game running.
07:40:33  <planetmaker> unless you use a desync debug build and would give us all those data. But that's probably more work than it's worth
07:40:43  <planetmaker> maybe there's some kind of interference there...
07:40:46  <KJN> After several "sleeps" all the saves come up corrupted.
07:40:50  <planetmaker> with the sleep mode
07:40:57  <KJN> All of them including non-autosave.
07:41:00  <planetmaker> but each time?
07:41:44  <KJN> I'm pretty sure it was the forst time I did it so often.
07:41:50  <KJN> *first
07:43:22  <KJN> Sleeping saves a cmputer state to a hardrive. Maybe OpenTTD has some data stored somehere which I disregarded at that time. It's a long guess.
07:43:44  <KJN> *is disregarded
07:44:36  <KJN> I laso noticed you cannot ryn Skype and OpenTTD at the same time. That's something I'm sure of.
07:44:58  <KJN> *also (run (sorry for this).
07:45:23  <planetmaker> works here.
07:46:07  <KJN> Not with me. OpenTTD changes instantly into "fancy" colors on my machine.
07:46:31  <planetmaker> right... do you have a desktop manager or wallpaper changer running?
07:46:39  <KJN> No.
07:47:13  <peter1138> well, 3rd time lucky, it didn't desync
07:47:15  <KJN> I have a way to show it to you though if you give sec.
07:51:31  <KJN> No I don't :( My recording software doesn't capture fullcreen openttd :(
07:51:55  <peter1138> i suspect you've hit some filesystem corruption with your suspend/resumes
07:53:09  <KJN> Well, that would make more files corrupted and onlu those saved BEFORE sleeping.
07:53:41  <KJN> That problem however applies only to openttd.
07:54:16  <KJN> In a most annoying way since it DOESN"T tell you savegames are not good.
07:54:58  <KJN> It worked just fine until I decided to step back and load some autosave.
07:55:57  <peter1138> i'm pretty sure it does tell you saving fails
07:57:30  <KJN> Well do you really think I would keep saving this files for several hours if it did tell me saves are unsuccessful?
07:58:22  <peter1138> no, hence i suspect fs corruption
07:59:42  <KJN> Ok. Let's test this theory. What do you suggest?
08:11:12  <peter1138> chkdsk? heh
08:14:15  <peter1138> hmm, could be memory corruption
08:14:41  <peter1138> dunno if that would result in an unsaveable game though
08:22:46  <KJN> Ok. Guys. Thanks for all the help. Now I have to take my cat to the vet. He has a corruption of a tail which is equally or more painful than me losing three days of careful playing.
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08:32:03  * andythenorth has a funny feeling that vehicle ferries are just not likely to be possible
08:32:11  <andythenorth> seems too complicated :P
08:33:46  <peter1138> hmm?
08:33:50  <peter1138> what's the problem?
08:35:07  <andythenorth> in respect of 'vehicles inside vehicles'
08:35:10  <andythenorth> as per forum thread
08:35:15  <andythenorth> and often-discussed
08:35:19  <peter1138> oh
08:35:27  <peter1138> it's surely possible
08:35:56  <andythenorth> thinking about it makes my brain ache
08:35:59  <andythenorth> although I'm not very clever :P
08:36:14  <peter1138> what's hard about the concept?
08:36:52  <andythenorth> well why limit it as just ferries?
08:36:57  <peter1138> why indeed?
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08:37:04  <andythenorth> basically to work, it needs 'vehicle inside vehicle'
08:37:19  *** bobingabout [5c286bd8@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
08:37:19  <andythenorth> and from there it's a short hop-step-and-a-jump to full intermodal
08:37:32  <bobingabout> hi
08:38:15  <andythenorth> then we end up wanting a vehicle type 'container'
08:38:15  <bobingabout> if using MSVC enterprise 2008, where do i put the files from openttduseful?
08:38:21  <andythenorth> which can only move on other vehicles
08:38:37  <andythenorth> then why stop there - container, crate, sack, parcel, box, envelope
08:39:04  <andythenorth> and you end up with individually routed cargo packets, only implemented as vehicles in some bonkers system
08:39:17  <peter1138> well no need to go that far
08:39:44  <peter1138> there is the problem of how to (un)load vehicles on vehicles
08:40:04  <andythenorth> would there need to be a new kind of magic station?
08:40:04  <bobingabout> sounds like you're talking about a cargo in a cargo
08:40:08  <peter1138> could just be done by attaching a depot to the station
08:40:29  <peter1138> bobingabout, originally road/rail vehicles on ships. he's taking it too far :)
08:40:29  <andythenorth> hmm
08:40:42  <andythenorth> I don't see how you avoid taking it that far :P
08:40:47  <bobingabout> right
08:40:56  <andythenorth> all I have to do is create an RV 'container' with 0hp and max speed 0
08:41:08  <bobingabout> so where do i put my .h and .lib files then?
08:41:08  <andythenorth> and an RV that can load RVs
08:41:32  <andythenorth> I don't think it wouldn't be fun, I just think it's bonkers :)
08:43:23  <peter1138> so don't do it!
08:43:46  <andythenorth> he
08:43:53  * andythenorth takes that advice
08:44:10  <andythenorth> do you think anyone else will do it?  I will take bets in units of 50p...
08:45:21  <peter1138> also remember that you're paid to transport cargo
08:45:56  <peter1138> so transporting vehicles probably wouldn't pay anything directly
08:46:00  <andythenorth> hmm
08:46:23  <andythenorth> would you be able to transport competitor vehicles?
08:47:15  <bobingabout> fine, ignore bob
08:47:47  <peter1138> if the .h file is part of your source, it goes with your source
08:48:01  <peter1138> if it's part of the library, it goes somewhere else
08:48:13  <bobingabout> openttduseful files
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08:48:31  <peter1138> library and library header files go in some random place that depends on what OS, compiler, etc, etc...
08:49:23  <bobingabout> i already said MSVC enterprise 2008, so... i should just try to find wherever that installed itself and place my lib files with the other lib files in there, and the H files in the include folder in there too?
08:50:56  <peter1138> basically you put them all somewhere you like
08:51:26  <peter1138> then adjust MSVC's config to include that location as library and header paths
08:51:27  <bobingabout> but then how does the program know where to find it
08:51:39  * planetmaker points at the wiki http://wiki.openttd.org/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions
08:51:41  <bobingabout> yeah, i looked for a config, can't find one
08:51:53  <peter1138> it's inside msvc
08:52:03  <bobingabout> i googled it, and it says tools, options, directories, which doesn't seem to exist for me
08:52:24  <bobingabout> i went to tools, and ooptions, but nowhere in the tree of options is there one called directories
08:59:04  <bobingabout> actually, i think i found it
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09:10:39  <peter1138> aand it desynced again
09:10:53  <planetmaker> time to turn on desync debug ;-)
09:11:13  <Terkhen> yes, debugging is fun :)
09:11:15  <peter1138> how?
09:11:20  <planetmaker> set desync_debug 3 IIRC
09:11:27  <peter1138> on the server?
09:11:32  <planetmaker> yes
09:11:35  <peter1138> and client?
09:11:46  * andythenorth ponders making this in current game: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=363299
09:11:52  <planetmaker> then save the game. and reload, so that it's a defined starting condition which can be followed
09:12:11  <peter1138> it probably won't desync then :p
09:12:14  <planetmaker> without a reload it's pointless
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09:12:38  <planetmaker> you then simply need to continue playing ;-)
09:12:43  <Terkhen> andythenorth: what do you mean, the highway? :P
09:12:53  <andythenorth> the entire yard :P
09:13:00  <andythenorth> might work nicely with yacd
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09:13:16  <planetmaker> set debug_level desync=3
09:13:21  <planetmaker> is probably more correct, peter1138
09:14:02  <peter1138> nope
09:14:28  <peter1138> oh, it crashed
09:14:35  <peter1138> debug_level desync=3
09:14:36  <peter1138> BOOM
09:14:40  <peter1138> so now i have no savegame :p
09:14:49  <planetmaker> he
09:15:03  <planetmaker> no autosaves?
09:15:11  <planetmaker> stupid to turn that off ;-)
09:16:45  <peter1138> well i've got a crash.sav
09:16:55  <peter1138> sync=3
09:16:55  <peter1138> Error: Assertion failed at line 1105 of /usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/openttd.cpp: memcmp(&st->goods[c].cargo, buff, sizeof(StationCargoList)) == 0
09:16:58  <peter1138> Crash encountered, generating crash log...
09:20:04  <peter1138> that line asserts again
09:23:30  <peter1138> so maybe yacd does something that's incompatible with desync debug
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09:26:16  * peter1138 suspects that vehicle ferries are TMWFTLB
09:26:29  * andythenorth thought that
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09:26:47  <andythenorth> they could bring some other win though
09:26:53  <andythenorth> but that makes even more work :|
09:26:59  <dihedral> ^^
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09:27:11  * dihedral is reminded of "the gassman commeth"
09:27:39  <peter1138> <3 flanders & swann
09:29:25  <peter1138> yeah, so you need orders for vehicles to wait at some kind of ferry loading depot
09:29:38  <peter1138> then you need to make sure they board a ferry going the right way
09:29:48  <peter1138> hm
09:30:17  <peter1138> and disembark in the right place
09:31:34  <peter1138> mmm, lots of uis :p
09:32:37  <andythenorth> what if they need servicing while en-route?
09:32:42  <andythenorth> or if they break down?
09:33:12  <andythenorth> assuming that it's silly to limit them to just ships, what happens if a plane/train/RV crashes while carrying other vehicles?
09:34:14  <Terkhen> we could apply the same policy than with passengers: everything is destroyed in a huge fireball
09:35:06  <andythenorth> when my plane crashes, I get a few weeks to clone it
09:35:26  <andythenorth> if my train crashes with 64 vehicles on it, how many news messages do I get :P
09:35:37  <peter1138> 65 ;)
09:35:40  * andythenorth doesn't think it's a bad idea, just....extensive :)
09:36:05  <andythenorth> quite complicated for something that is effectively the same net result as a transfer order
09:36:18  <andythenorth> although it would be nice to have mixed-cargo ships :|
09:36:18  <peter1138> yeah
09:36:47  <andythenorth> what if I autoreplace a vehicle with one that has fewer slots for other vehicles?
09:36:49  <peter1138> vehicle ferries do make some sense
09:36:51  <Terkhen> IMO mixed cargo ships is simpler than vehicles inside other vehicles
09:37:00  <peter1138> vehicle trains a little, but less so
09:37:04  <andythenorth> Terkhen: but it would come for free with vehicles-in-vehicles
09:37:07  <peter1138> vehicle aircraft... yeah, not really very common
09:37:24  <andythenorth> war!
09:37:26  <andythenorth> perhaps not :P
09:37:29  <Noldo_> yeah
09:37:34  <andythenorth> you'd need to be able to parachute them
09:37:48  <Noldo_> I have a feeling UN might ferry their hardware around the world
09:38:15  <peter1138> hmm, vans on trains on boats...
09:38:53  <peter1138> hmm, or do "virtual ferries"
09:39:06  <peter1138> and just have vehicles teleport between docks, heh
09:39:27  <peter1138> (basically tunnels, but not straight, heh)
09:39:28  <andythenorth> light aircraft on vans on trucks on narrow gauge trains on standard gauge trains on landing craft on barges on boats
09:39:42  <andythenorth> peter1138: depots
09:40:08  <peter1138> the teleport is how i'd envisage vehicle ferries to work anyway
09:40:35  <peter1138> the ferry contains a list of vehicles "on" it, but really they're stopped in the waiting depot at the dock
09:40:52  <peter1138> when the ferry lands, they're teleported to the approriate depot on the other side
09:41:09  <andythenorth> it's kind of neat
09:41:13  <andythenorth> not necessary
09:41:21  <peter1138> i mean, unless you want funky loading animations too...
09:41:26  <andythenorth> but what is necessary about the game?
09:41:27  <peter1138> what's not necessary?
09:41:33  <andythenorth> all of it :)
09:41:37  <peter1138> well no
09:41:50  <andythenorth> ferries would be cool
09:41:55  <andythenorth> is that enough?
09:42:01  <peter1138> is that cool enough? hmmmmmmm
09:42:34  <andythenorth> means I can add fairly infinite capacity to my train routes :P
09:42:38  <Terkhen> it's one of those things that is cool enough for having someone else doing it, but not cool enough for getting yourself into doing it :P
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09:42:54  <andythenorth> ho
09:42:54  <peter1138> Terkhen, i might ;)
09:43:04  <peter1138> andythenorth, well you could limit the amount of vehicles waiting
09:43:17  <andythenorth> hmm
09:43:20  <peter1138> and obviously limit the number of vehicles in a vehicle
09:43:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause was suggesting limiting number of ships at a dock (and making docks multi-stop)
09:43:50  <andythenorth> which would destroy my fun with 'ship routes have infinite capacity' :P
09:44:08  <peter1138> until ships become solid, multistop docks are pointless, yeah
09:44:17  <planetmaker> it'll make sense. If you could combine several docks to one station
09:44:18  <Terkhen> I wonder how I managed to crash my irc client by pressing Ctrl+Z
09:44:32  <andythenorth> not sure solid ships are needed for multistop docks?
09:44:37  <peter1138> you backgrounded it
09:44:40  <andythenorth> RVs aren't entirely solid
09:44:43  <peter1138> not necessary, no
09:44:50  <andythenorth> RVs are only solid like atoms are solid
09:45:02  <peter1138> i wanted to do multistop docks anyway
09:45:04  <peter1138> but never bothered
09:45:12  <andythenorth> that would be initially cooler than ferries
09:45:24  <peter1138> though last time i remember thinking about it multistop road stops was in a state of flux too
09:45:28  <andythenorth> ferries means a whole newgrf spec and other crap no?
09:45:33  <Terkhen> IIRC that was waiting on "NewGRF state machines for stations" too
09:45:35  <peter1138> no
09:45:57  <andythenorth> interestink
09:45:58  <andythenorth> tell more
09:46:04  <peter1138> andythenorth, just a callback, i suppose
09:46:15  <andythenorth> 'how many vehicles can I hold?'
09:46:20  <andythenorth> 'type of vehicles?'
09:46:38  <andythenorth> those?  And anything else?
09:46:45  <andythenorth> total cargo capacity (weight?)
09:47:14  <andythenorth> I'll support it in FISH if you patch it
09:47:15  <planetmaker> just a vehicle flag
09:47:21  <Terkhen> there is nothing that says the "real" size of a vehicle, but you could just always define it as "I can carry X vehicles of type Y"
09:47:21  <andythenorth> I have some annoying vehicle ferries anyway
09:47:25  <planetmaker> it's up to the newgrf to set all other properties
09:47:28  <andythenorth> I wanted to delete them from FISH
09:47:33  <planetmaker> like heli vs. plane
09:47:34  <Terkhen> or use a callback to check if the vehicle can be carried, similar to the "can be attached" callback
09:47:48  <planetmaker> or articulated vs. 'normal'
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09:48:26  <peter1138> yeah, could just be a simple property
09:48:51  <peter1138> but none of that is necessary to get the basics going
09:49:27  <peter1138> now, the order system...
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09:50:40  <Terkhen> what about a special order that makes the vehicle wait until it is loaded by other vehicle and then unloaded somewhere? the loaded vehicle orders would be freezed then
09:51:10  <andythenorth> hmm
09:51:30  <andythenorth> say I have a ferry for 8 vehicles, and I only have one on the route...how do I specify the load amount?
09:51:34  * andythenorth deviates
09:51:52  <Markk> What have I missed now?
09:51:58  <Markk> Vehicle ferry? O.o
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10:03:19  <peter1138> way to kill the conversation :p
10:03:48  <Markk> Yep.
10:03:50  <Markk> Can see that.
10:03:56  <Markk> Sheisse.
10:05:01  <andythenorth> was going so nicely too :)
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10:12:24  <Wolf01> hello
10:12:27  <andythenorth> 'goto x, await transport?'
10:12:54  <andythenorth> 'transport to y'
10:12:58  <andythenorth> hmm
10:13:12  <andythenorth> can't think of a way to consolidate that into one order
10:13:13  <Terkhen> cargo does not decide where to go
10:13:21  <andythenorth> but vehicles do?
10:13:34  <Terkhen> but IMO as long as they are being transported they should be treated as cargo
10:13:50  <Terkhen> the carrier vehicle orders have preference
10:14:06  * andythenorth puzzles how that could work
10:14:20  <andythenorth> assuming carried vehicle is trying to get from A - D
10:14:24  <andythenorth> and the ferry link B-C
10:14:42  <andythenorth> carried vehicle needs to have orders for A-B-C-D no?
10:17:56  <Terkhen> go to A, go to B and wait for load, go to D
10:18:44  <planetmaker> sounds reasonable
10:24:05  <peter1138> well
10:24:27  <peter1138> if you have a specific type of depot for loading/unloading, then that it just a simple goto order
10:24:48  <peter1138> then you just need a way of getting unloaded in the right place
10:25:41  <andythenorth> so you need to know to 'transport to C, get off the boat'
10:25:56  <peter1138> you need to get on the right boat
10:26:02  <peter1138> then get off at the right place, yeha
10:26:21  <andythenorth> well you don't get on a boat that doesn't have C in it's orders?
10:26:26  <peter1138> could be "get on any boat that unloads at C
10:26:30  <peter1138> "
10:26:31  <peter1138> yeah
10:27:14  <peter1138> that would then be 1 order for loading onto the correct boat, and unloading at the correct place
10:27:32  <Terkhen> it could be converted to cargo with its destination set correctly for yacd, then a boat going to C would pick the vehicle up automatically
10:27:34  <andythenorth> so for carrier vehicle, when it arrives, it just iterates it's orders for destination i, and loads any vehicle which unloads at i
10:27:38  <Terkhen> but then you depend on yacd :)
10:28:06  <peter1138> i don't think converting vehicles to cargo is the right way
10:28:07  <andythenorth> and then you head into the crazy intermodal system I described earlier :)
10:28:14  <andythenorth> which is the *correct* way to do it
10:28:20  <andythenorth> but means it will never ship :P
10:28:59  * andythenorth would rather a small bit of specific code was patched on for one cool feature, instead of a full new framework
10:29:03  <andythenorth> then we all win
10:29:38  * andythenorth goes back to work
10:29:59  <andythenorth> http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=they'll+like+us+when+we+win&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=m5_TTeOiJI6PswaWxbzeAg
10:31:23  <peter1138> with the explicit disembark order, cargo routing would still work, i guess
10:31:46  <peter1138> i guess they'd be like waypoints for cargo routing purposes
10:32:45  <andythenorth> if I have orders that get my vehicle from A-D, then the graph would be ok for yacd purposes?
10:32:55  <andythenorth> assuming cargo wants to go from A-D
10:33:08  <andythenorth> that it gets from B-C on a ferry is no business of yacd's
10:35:47  <peter1138> quite
10:36:41  <peter1138> i think terkhen is suggesting a system that would automatically route through the ship using the pathfinders
10:36:59  <andythenorth> so it would be treated like a bridge or such?
10:37:14  <andythenorth> the ferry becomes infrastructure...
10:37:54  <Terkhen> if the vehicle gets converted into "cargo wanting to go to C", it would be picked up by the next vehicle as normal
10:38:31  * andythenorth wonders if it's actually fun to *have* to route vehicles on and off ferries
10:38:32  <andythenorth> it might be
10:38:35  <andythenorth> it might not
10:38:44  <andythenorth> it might be something in between
10:38:46  <peter1138> andythenorth, i like playing with 60-70% water ;)
10:38:52  <peter1138> which i believe is higher than high
10:38:53  * andythenorth tops that with 85%
10:38:58  <andythenorth> as does danmack
10:39:02  <andythenorth> :P
10:39:23  <peter1138> yacd with lots of water is fun
10:39:41  <Terkhen> ^ I should try that
10:39:41  <planetmaker> peter1138: that's not high. That's about the fun ratio :-)
10:39:51  <planetmaker> through in mountanous and it's certainly nice
10:40:30  <peter1138> planetmaker, i mean "high" on the drop down list
10:40:33  <peter1138> which is about 40%
10:40:37  <planetmaker> meh... one gimp bug after the other :-P
10:40:45  <planetmaker> that may be true
10:40:57  <peter1138> 39.0600% to be precise
10:41:01  <peter1138> is, not may :p
10:41:21  <peter1138> and yeha, mountainous, rough, low variation, 85% water
10:41:34  <andythenorth> same as me
10:41:41  <andythenorth> let's remove all other map gen options :P
10:42:57  <peter1138> :p
10:45:34  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/my_lovely_map_is_lovely.png
10:45:41  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/my_lovely_yacd.png
10:46:05  <Terkhen> wow :)
10:46:20  <Terkhen> I usually get bored before connecting that much
10:46:38  <andythenorth> it's quite addictive :P
10:46:54  <andythenorth> and it's not so hard to connect the yacd link graph
10:47:02  <andythenorth> a few big stations, with feeders
10:47:07  <andythenorth> and a small number of large mixed trains
10:47:10  <peter1138> you're quite fond of yacd then?
10:47:22  <andythenorth> ahem
10:47:29  <planetmaker> wow :-)
10:47:33  <andythenorth> it's the game it should always have been :P
10:47:43  <andythenorth> particularly wrt transfers
10:47:45  <peter1138> you should've been playing simutrans then ;)
10:47:56  <andythenorth> that's what my simutrans friend tells me
10:48:00  <andythenorth> but simutrans has no class
10:48:47  <peter1138> simutrans does, indeed, smell
10:49:01  <Noldo_> why is that?
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10:49:11  <planetmaker> I gave it a try one, two times. It didn't catch on
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10:49:51  <Guest1338> grrr
10:49:51  <peter1138> wonder if tron still hacks on it
10:50:08  <peter1138> simutrans' rail junctions suck, for one thing
10:50:26  <planetmaker> tron worked on simutrans?+
10:50:29  <planetmaker> also?
10:50:40  <peter1138> after he left openttd
10:50:47  <planetmaker> he
10:50:52  <peter1138> he improved its performance considerably
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10:51:12  <Noldo> better
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10:58:54  <andythenorth> can a ferry carry mixed vehicle types?
10:58:58  <andythenorth> e.g. RV + train?
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10:59:41  <peter1138> depends what you want
11:00:03  <peter1138> makes sense to allow it
11:00:43  <peter1138> i guess some people would like to see 'real' waiting areas, with road vehicles queueing and trains waiting in sidings, heh
11:01:06  <andythenorth> screw them :P
11:01:09  <andythenorth> umm
11:01:10  <andythenorth> sorry
11:01:27  * andythenorth meant to say 'support that request'
11:01:41  <andythenorth> put a magic signal on the depot
11:01:50  <andythenorth> make them queue until a carrier vehicle arrives
11:02:26  <andythenorth> might have some...problems
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11:06:01  * andythenorth -> tea for one
11:06:16  <andythenorth> is pikka here?
11:08:22  <peter1138> hmm, tea
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11:27:24  <andythenorth> hmm
11:27:36  <andythenorth> ship depots building in the middle of the ocean seems silly
11:27:39  <andythenorth> or do they float?
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11:30:08  <planetmaker> those are dry docks, they float
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11:56:46  <peter1138> still desyncs
11:56:52  <peter1138> can't debug desyncs though
11:56:52  <peter1138> hmm
11:57:08  <peter1138> maybe i should upload my save :D
11:57:51  <planetmaker> did you start with debug_level desyn=3 ?
11:57:56  <planetmaker> and have still the initial savegame?
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12:20:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22473 /trunk/src/ (65 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: Automatic orders are better called implicit orders as no real order influencing path finding is added
12:21:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22474 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: Reflect r22473 also in how it reads in the order list
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12:43:05  <Ammler> oh, desyncs? :-(
12:45:57  <dihedral> hello Ammler
12:45:58  <dihedral> :-)
12:46:13  <Ammler> SalÌ dih
12:46:53  <planetmaker> salut vous deux
12:46:57  <dihedral> how is ammler?
12:50:38  <Ammler> soso lala :-)
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13:19:59  <Belugas> hello
13:22:48  <peter1138> down at the bottom of the garden
13:23:20  <peter1138> among the birds and the bees
13:23:34  <peter1138> a little lotta little people
13:23:41  <peter1138> they're called the poddington peas
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13:25:46  <peter1138> planetmaker, it crashes with debug_level desync=3
13:25:52  <peter1138> instant crash
13:26:00  <peter1138> well, on the first tick anyway
13:26:14  <planetmaker> hm, ok... reproducably then, I guess
13:26:25  <Belugas> someone is watching morning cartoons or is babysitting...
13:27:30  <peter1138> hehe, i think i saw an exgf from school on the way in, her last name rhymes with poddington
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13:34:23  <peter1138> pom te pom
13:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "pommes de terre"
13:37:31  <Belugas> never saw that show in here
13:37:50  <Belugas> i jsut discovered there are tons of shows i've not seen either...
13:38:18  <Belugas> and some i've seen only in english that are already translated!
13:41:01  <Belugas> like Defying Gravity... lovely show
13:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the shows whose unsucess was totally undeserved
13:47:51  <peter1138> hmm?
13:48:21  <ChoHag> Somebody tell me where my multimeter is.
13:48:38  <peter1138> mysterious cities of gold, that was quality television
13:48:53  <peter1138> ChoHag, it's not in my toolbox, because that's my one
13:49:20  <ChoHag> Do you live near me?
13:50:15  <andythenorth> mine is under the stairs
13:50:42  <peter1138> i don't know
13:50:50  <ChoHag> I thought mine might be but it's only other bits.
13:54:08  <peter1138> bollocks, my mug of tea ran out :S
13:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> mine is on my desk next to me
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14:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> "stupidity" ::= "unknowledge" paired with "confidence"
14:41:04  <Belugas> agree with you on the unsucess part, Eddi|zuHause
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14:41:36  <peter1138> hmm?
14:41:40  <Belugas> agree with on as well, peter1138, on mysterious cities :)  i have those on DVD< just waiting for my son to be a little older to show him
14:41:52  <peter1138> :)
14:42:19  <Belugas> peter1138, Defying gfravity was a tv show a couple of years ago.  Sci-Fi.  very well done
14:42:24  <peter1138> oh
14:42:25  <Belugas> but it was cut out after the first season
14:42:27  <Belugas> a mess
14:42:32  <Belugas> it was soooo... goooood!
14:42:48  <peter1138> never saw it, heh
14:44:48  <Belugas> i've got it at home.  in french. i still ove watching it :)
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15:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: "184 might divide nicely by 23, but going from 0 to 23 for 8 times requires more "steps" than going from 0 to 184, after all 24 * 8 > 185." <-- that sentence does not make any sense.
15:01:21  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: good ;)
15:02:12  <peter1138> openttd's build system is totally fucked up for using non-gcc compilers...
15:02:49  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no idea how to explain it any clearer
15:02:55  <SpComb> peter1138's busy trying to compile on jslinux's tcc?
15:04:01  <Rubidium> peter1138: most likely they fail with yapf in any case
15:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm sure it makes perfect sense in the right context, but i seem to be stuck thinking in a different pattern than you...
15:05:02  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: how does one download the source onto jslinux?
15:09:55  <peter1138> heh, it's stuck on squirrel atm
15:10:04  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: imagine the counter as being a integer with 185 values (like a byte has 256 values). As it zero-based it goes from 0 to 184. Now the TS wants that iteration to go from 0 to 23 (so an integer with 24 values).
15:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: ah, i think you have an obiwan in your thought there
15:10:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: or Taifidis does
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15:11:27  <Rubidium> _age_cargo_skip_counter = (_age_cargo_skip_counter == 0) ? 184 : (_age_cargo_skip_counter - 1);
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15:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, yes. now i get it
15:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it counts down from 184 to 0, so 185 values
15:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> 185 = 5*37
15:12:34  <Rubidium> now, lets change the 184 to 255, and assume the counter is a byte. Then cnt == 0 ? 255 : cnt - 1 equals cnt = cnt - 1 (with underflowing)
15:13:00  <Rubidium> as such, 184 is one less than the amount of values in the range
15:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... had an assert triggered by generating a map... must have screwed with tgp.cpp one too many times...
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15:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> 185 makes more sense, because now it's exactly 2.5 days
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15:22:59  <andythenorth> hmm
15:23:09  <andythenorth> maybe it's time to declare my epic YACD game done
15:23:15  <andythenorth> ....and start a new one
15:23:45  <andythenorth> 1880-2018, I normally get bored before then
15:24:46  * andythenorth ponders
15:24:53  <andythenorth> maybe it's time to start BANDIT
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15:29:53  <peter1138> /usr/include/string.h:43:14: note: candidate function not viable: cannot convert argument of incomplete type 'struct AirportSpec const (*)[]' to 'void const *restrict'
15:29:57  <peter1138> extern void *memcpy (void *__restrict __dest,
15:29:58  <peter1138> that looks delightful :)
15:31:30  <michi_cc> peter1138: The desync debug assert you've got is indeed broken with YACD, as the memcmp is now comparing the head pointer of a std::map (which is of course not constant when recreating the map). I probably have to rewrite that check.
15:31:46  <peter1138> :-)
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15:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> am i oversensitive when i think 3iff's avatar is borderline offensive?
15:43:59  <planetmaker> thank you Eddi|zuHause for the reply to HvS. I deleted mine before hitting 'submit' ;-)
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15:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> breaking news: "playstation network" hacked.
15:49:38  <Terkhen> I didn't think that avatar meant anything
15:49:43  <Terkhen> wow, for the third time already?
15:49:44  <frosch123> again or still?
15:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> again.
15:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "Less than 2 days after Sony started bringing it’s PlayStation Network back online reports are coming in that the besieged gaming giant’s platform has been hacked yet again."
15:51:10  <Sacro> someone show them 'apt-get update' ffs
15:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> " the exploit allows for hackers to change users passwords using only a PSN account email and date of birth, two pieces of user information that were obtained in the original hack."
15:51:25  <Sacro> WHAT?
15:51:47  <Sacro> does this mean my second 20 char alphanumeric + cases + symbols is worthless?
15:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much...
15:52:45  <TWerkhoven> they'd still have to hack your email, wouldn't they?
15:53:36  <peter1138> unless it doesn't actually send an email
15:53:57  <peter1138> there are dumb systems that use, say, dob for verification...
15:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause> TWerkhoven: i understood it more like "type in your email adress here"
15:55:53  <Sacro> password recovery might only use DOB
15:55:57  <Sacro> which isn't secure... ever
15:55:58  <Terkhen> ... wow
15:56:08  <Sacro> Sigh, I'm going to request a new DoB
15:56:10  <Terkhen> this is going to be an example in many books
15:56:13  <Sacro> and get my bank to stop using my current one
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15:56:40  <peter1138> yeah, it's stupid that anybody might consider DoB as security information
15:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i think in a few years time this might top the pentium bug and the ariane crash in the "don't do this" part of the software engineering lecture :p
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15:59:37  <Terkhen> we had some computers with the pentium bug in my university
16:00:17  <Terkhen> it is fun until you remember those computers were supposed to be free of use for any student who needed them to complete stuff
16:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (the problem with the pentium bug wasn't actually that there's a bug, but that they initially dismissed it as "ah well, it'll be triggered once in a million years")
16:01:09  <Terkhen> I don't remember it being very complicated to trigger
16:01:18  <Terkhen> IIRC 4.0 / 4.0 did the trick
16:01:28  <Terkhen> or maybe 3.99 / 4.0
16:04:58  <frosch123> [17:57] <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i think in a few years time this might top the pentium bug and the ariane crash in the "don't do this" part of the software engineering lecture :p <- well, but does it also confirm the law of "if the hardware is buggy, create software to work around"?
16:05:44  <glx> anyway floats are bad ;)
16:06:01  <frosch123> yeah, always use doubles :p
16:08:04  <Rubidium> nah... extended precision! ;)
16:08:33  <andythenorth> especially use them for financial apps
16:10:48  <frosch123> that's totally fine, we just need to enforce 1€ = 128 bicents
16:13:55  <perk11> what's DoB?
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16:14:24  <andythenorth> a newgrf I'm working on
16:14:28  <frosch123> most likely DateOfBirth, but no idea :)
16:14:36  <perk11> :D
16:15:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: DoB or Bridges?
16:15:17  <andythenorth> ho
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17:03:50  <planetmaker> hm, can I create rough terrain in the SE?
17:05:12  <peter1138> bah
17:05:45  <peter1138> need to destroy houses to expand my rail empire^W network
17:06:48  <peter1138> and a stadium :S
17:07:15  <peter1138> oh well, sorry residents :p
17:08:34  <andythenorth> just destroy the town
17:08:42  <andythenorth> moving freight is better anyway
17:08:47  <peter1138> yeah yeha
17:08:56  <Alberth> planetmaker: load a random picture as height map
17:09:24  <planetmaker> nah, I don't mean height variations. I mean rough vs. smooth ground tile
17:09:41  <planetmaker> like 'this tile is rough' and 'this is not'
17:10:08  <Alberth> you can place rocks, but maybe you mean something else
17:10:47  <peter1138> rough grass
17:10:59  <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/rough.png
17:11:04  <planetmaker> there's rocks, normal and rough
17:11:05  <peter1138> ah, it's called "rough land" in game ;p
17:12:29  <planetmaker> you see this one tile in the screenshot, Alberth ?
17:13:25  <Alberth> yep
17:14:08  <Alberth> although I am somewhat distracted by all those wind mills :)
17:14:21  <planetmaker> :-D
17:14:24  <andythenorth> those windmills float
17:14:28  <andythenorth> they need a base
17:14:33  <planetmaker> yes, they do
17:14:44  <peter1138> a slight shadow...
17:14:49  <planetmaker> I learnt that after I implemented them. Nasty artists didn't draw that properly
17:15:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: afaik rough land is planted randomly when bulldozing and/or planting trees
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17:15:59  <planetmaker> yes. That's how I got by that one tile in that screenshot
17:17:04  <planetmaker> maybe time to pull out gimp again ;-)
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17:33:17  * andythenorth considers various things about FIRS supplies
17:36:05  <andythenorth> seems there would be happy players if more supplies = higher chance of production increase
17:36:08  <andythenorth> which I don't mind
17:38:56  <planetmaker> as a function of the current production level
17:39:12  <planetmaker> basically what V suggested makes sense
17:40:21  <andythenorth> so chance of increase scales by amount of supplies delivered
17:40:34  <andythenorth> but also by current production
17:40:49  * andythenorth doesn't fancy writing the nfo for that :)
17:41:31  <planetmaker> wait for the nml transition ;-)
17:41:37  * andythenorth will
17:41:43  <andythenorth> I have plenty of fish to fry until then
17:41:45  <andythenorth> it will be interesting to see how to solve "supplies + YACD"
17:42:21  * andythenorth hasn't thought of any solutions yet
17:42:58  <planetmaker> newgrf switch might be the solution
17:43:14  <andythenorth> maybe
17:43:23  <andythenorth> one option is that YACD ignores them
17:43:41  <andythenorth> but then they'll lose the nice routing behaviour wrt transfers etc
17:44:28  <planetmaker> question is: does it matter if it works like now, isn't that maybe good?
17:44:37  <planetmaker> after all supplies 'just' increase production
17:44:42  <andythenorth> it doesn't matter particularly
17:44:48  <andythenorth> a yacd game with FIRS is fun
17:45:04  <andythenorth> but the supplies are one of the least fun elements
17:45:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22475 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
17:45:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:45:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by ABCRic, JayCity
17:46:18  <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/rough.png <-- slightly better, andythenorth ?
17:46:24  <planetmaker> esp. the middle one
17:47:13  <andythenorth> better
17:47:19  <andythenorth> I would draw some mud and stuff around it
17:47:21  <andythenorth> not much
17:47:22  <andythenorth> just a bit
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18:17:55  * andythenorth ponders
18:18:16  <andythenorth> why can't rivers be walked backwards from their destination?
18:18:23  <andythenorth> I know we discussed it n times :P
18:19:32  <SmatZ> you mean real-life rivers?
18:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it doesn't change anything, the problem is exactly the same, just the sign changed
18:22:40  <SmatZ> are you sure? water will go downwards in the direction of highest negative gradient
18:22:41  <andythenorth> what's the problem defined as in that case?
18:23:09  <SmatZ> but in the other direction, it could come from any direction with non-negative gradient
18:23:19  <SmatZ> (and yes, there can be exceptions ;)
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18:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i can't find the halftile rivers patch that was used to make this screenshot: http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/halfriver.png
18:26:46  <andythenorth> ho
18:26:57  <andythenorth> interesting river-along-a-cliff :)
18:27:06  <andythenorth> bottom of the screenshot
18:27:28  <SmatZ> hehe :)
18:27:39  * andythenorth wishes he could code
18:28:06  <andythenorth> it seems that you'd start a semi-random walk at any coast tile
18:28:18  <andythenorth> the rule is first walk up if any tile is higher than current tile
18:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think that will create good rivers
18:28:51  <andythenorth> and if there is >1 possible direction, walk random direction
18:29:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: navigable, useful rivers?  probably not
18:29:25  <andythenorth> annoying rivers that have to be inconveniently bridged?  probably
18:29:38  <andythenorth> but it might still work anyway
18:30:14  <planetmaker> hm, I guess rivers need half-tiles to look nice :-)
18:30:29  <planetmaker> I didn't know that screenshot
18:31:17  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why don't you think it would create a good river?  what do I miss?
18:31:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22476 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate code for reading sprite layout sprites.
18:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the path should not be too "random"
18:32:28  <planetmaker> and that indeed is not too easy
18:32:44  <planetmaker> the tendency to go straight needs to be higher than to bend
18:33:38  <andythenorth> cache the previous move
18:33:44  <andythenorth> give it a higher weighting
18:34:06  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it should have the tendency to search in a somewhat straight line for the nearest lower point
18:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and it doesn't solve the terraforming issue
18:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> currently, rivers can only be placed on flat land, or "normal" slopes, of which a generated landscape has very few
18:34:54  <Rubidium> possibly trying to stay as far away from the higher bits in the process
18:36:17  <Rubidium> e.g. http://master.binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r22471/logs/windows-win9x-compile.log
18:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so there need to be "halftile" rivers that either have only the flat or only the sloped or both halves of a halftile-slope (or steep slope)
18:36:31  <Rubidium> hmm... wrong channel?
18:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the link doesn't match the conversation :p
18:37:30  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: actually, only the shore would be needed; the rest can be put there like is done for half-tile foundations
18:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and once halftile rivers exist on the map, people will want to place rail on the other half, without destroying the river :p
18:40:06  <Rubidium> why not? Instead of drawing the foundation draw the edge... but!
18:40:29  <andythenorth> why half-tile rivers?
18:40:32  <Rubidium> they want to have half tile canals as well and then it starts getting difficult I think
18:40:34  <andythenorth> I don't see the need
18:40:38  <andythenorth> no half-tile canals
18:40:44  <andythenorth> do we have half-tile roads?
18:40:51  <planetmaker> actually yes
18:41:01  <planetmaker> :-)
18:42:02  <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-landscape/repository/entry/src/gfx/road_desert_nosep_nogrid.png <-- see the last 4 sprites
18:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i need curved roads on steep slopes! [with double-foundation]
18:43:20  <andythenorth> I need a pony :D
18:43:39  * andythenorth thinks *some* rivers are better than perfect rivers
18:43:46  <andythenorth> quite limited rivers would be quite fun
18:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, the rivers that i have need this, otherwise they crash the game.
18:44:32  <andythenorth> is it a drawing issue, or a spec issue?
18:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what are these weird pixels over sprite 11?
18:45:54  <planetmaker> I'm quite sure an unintentional left-over of a not complete undo after a colour-sensitive cut and paste
18:46:03  <planetmaker> but then... they're not used ;-)
18:46:19  <planetmaker> it's just all from the same layered source file
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18:46:44  <planetmaker> good spot though, I need to check the layer where it is actually used :-)
18:47:22  <planetmaker> s/layer/png files/
18:47:48  <planetmaker> though... might be none. The overlay needs no replacement...
18:47:59  <planetmaker> and I didn't yet use it for OpenGFX itself
18:50:04  <peter1138> herping and derping
18:52:22  <peter1138> ah, half-tile rivers
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18:53:44  <peter1138> no, i can't find it either
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19:01:12  * peter1138 ponders working on vehicles-in-vehicles
19:01:58  <__ln__> peter1138: something like lorries-in-trains or trains-in-ferries?
19:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: as long as you get to the point where the orders read: "train X: attach (up to) Y wagons towards station Z"
19:02:29  <peter1138> pardon?
19:02:58  <__ln__> pardon is french
19:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: imagine a train with an engine and no wagons, but wagon-placeholders
19:03:21  <peter1138> why?
19:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the wagon-placeholders are "vehicles that load vehicles", and the wagons are loaded into these placeholders
19:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> this simulates shunting
19:03:54  <peter1138> oh
19:04:00  <peter1138> i think that's a bad way of simulating shunting
19:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
19:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the wagons will be teleported across the stations, but otherwise? what's so bad about it?
19:05:34  <Belugas> it's unrealistic
19:05:51  * Eddi|zuHause slaps Belugas
19:08:10  <Belugas> :D
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19:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> 'A computer error made an official government paper instead of "StÃŒhle rÃŒcken" [moving/exchanging chairs] read "StÃŒhle ficken" [fucking chairs]'
19:09:12  <frosch123> hmm i guess when you end up with 10+ parameters to functions, you are doing something wrong :/
19:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: either combine parameters into structs or split up the function?
19:10:41  <frosch123> well, i split the function up, but there are too many intermediate values to pass between them
19:10:53  <peter1138> struct?
19:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> global variables! :p
19:11:17  <peter1138> merge the functions!
19:11:21  <frosch123> yeah, most likely struct, though not every function needs every parameter
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19:11:27  <planetmaker> one big function and goto ;-)
19:11:28  * Eddi|zuHause is highly suspicious of forum threads with chinese/japanese letters
19:11:30  <frosch123> macros would do :p
19:12:27  <SmatZ> especially when only latin characters in text are hyperlinks to some shops :)
19:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> make a function of higher order ;)
19:12:41  <peter1138> bah, constantly desyncing now :S
19:12:43  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i didn't click on it ;)
19:12:55  <SmatZ> :)
19:14:41  <Belugas> mmh... shunting... that would look different for sure
19:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be really useful with destinations to get dynamically mixed trains
19:16:30  <peter1138> all those people who want it, but have never attempted it ;)
19:17:02  <Amis> Case: I was planting tree in a city and at a square while planting a base of a house popped up but kept clicking planting and as clicked the house went through the construction stages under 0.5 second and finished. Are these two can be related ANYHOW?
19:17:27  <Belugas> indeed, peter1138 :) Always relying in that dear old friend: someone
19:20:55  <Amis> Okkey, actually the house is still constructing
19:21:14  <Amis> So I guess the sprites somehow slipped a bi
19:21:15  <Amis> t
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19:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: can you reproduce that on any house that is under construction?
19:27:13  <Amis> I can't predict when and where a house will... you know... pop
19:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: i mean just take a house that just popped up, and try to build a tree on it
19:28:39  <Amis> It does not do the same
19:28:50  <Amis> I guess I have to plant trees before it pops up
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19:59:45  <peter1138> -
20:01:20  <andythenorth> DanMacK: :)
20:01:30  <DanMacK> Heya
20:01:40  <DanMacK> Been awaol for the last little while... lol
20:01:53  <planetmaker> salut DanMacK
20:03:01  <DanMacK> Howdy all
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20:32:03  <gar> hey all
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20:35:24  <garl> hey anyone know any good ais?
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20:35:46  <planetmaker> yes
20:36:10  <planetmaker> before I repeat everything: read my last report on AI tests in the forums
20:36:11  <garl> which?
20:36:18  <garl> ps gar is me also....
20:37:06  *** gar [44ed1f53@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
20:37:43  <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=53358
20:38:31  <garl> which link?
20:42:29  * andythenorth ponders
20:42:37  <andythenorth> short quiz
20:42:38  <garl> o,,o
20:42:42  <andythenorth> what do you want in a truck set
20:42:53  <andythenorth> ?
20:43:01  <garl> a working truck
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20:45:08  <Rubidium> andythenorth: totally incorrectly (w.r.t. real world) scaled trucks? ;)
20:45:31  <andythenorth> bigger or smaller
20:45:36  <garl> BIGGER
20:45:48  <frosch123> twice as big as heqs?
20:45:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what I want are two things: a) a progression of vehicles with time (i.e. some generations sort-of) and b) nice-looking, diverse cargo support
20:46:26  <planetmaker> I'll donate you the psd2png makefile for that purpose ;-)
20:47:05  <andythenorth> planetmaker: progression how?
20:47:15  <planetmaker> I think the default trucks are quite accurately sized
20:47:32  <planetmaker> progression in speed and slightly also carrying capacity
20:47:38  <planetmaker> thus maybe also size. somewhat
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20:48:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: doesn't eGRVTS entirely cover that? :o
20:48:41  <planetmaker> in many parts, yes
20:50:48  <planetmaker> your style of vehicles is different, though
20:51:02  <planetmaker> if you keep the heqs style - which I'd have to assume
20:51:23  <andythenorth> I'm hoping DanMacK will draw them for me :P
20:51:24  <andythenorth> or pikka
20:51:53  <andythenorth> and maybe someone else will code
20:51:59  <andythenorth> I can just project manage :P
20:52:04  <planetmaker> :-D
20:52:42  <frosch123> ottd still needs a big manager
20:52:55  <planetmaker> a green leaf frog? ;-)
20:52:57  <frosch123> hmm, or what was the term?
20:53:09  <planetmaker> "fÃŒhrer"?
20:54:06  <andythenorth> bdfl
20:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> "a big project manager"
20:54:28  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_Dictator_For_Life
20:55:17  *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:55:22  <planetmaker> that can work.
20:55:38  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=792478#p792478 <- not sure whether it was that post i remembered
20:55:46  * Belugas starts sending crates of fat food to Rubidium
20:56:05  <Belugas> we'll get a big manager inno time ^_^
20:56:12  <garl> hey
20:56:23  <garl> how u get ais to do somthing///
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20:56:28  <andythenorth> how big?
20:56:30  <andythenorth> 40 foot
20:56:31  <andythenorth> ?
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20:56:42  <andythenorth> will he fit on a boat?
20:56:46  <andythenorth> maybe a ferry even?
20:57:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yeah, i think that's the one
20:58:02  <Zuu> garl: Have you downloaded any AIs?
20:58:16  <Zuu> Have you let the game run for a 6-12 months?
20:58:32  <Zuu> How large is your map?
20:58:53  <Zuu> Which AIs did you try?
20:59:09  <Zuu> If you did try Idle or IdleMore, it is even a feature that they do nothing :-p
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21:04:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1243703876#1243703876
21:05:13  <andythenorth> new trucks would be nice for my next yacd game
21:05:15  <andythenorth> smaller ones
21:05:49  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: \o/ i totally forgot that guy
21:05:51  <frosch123> (luckily)
21:05:59  <planetmaker> damn you Eddi|zuHause ! I totally forgot that nick name. And I was happy...
21:06:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :p
21:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it's been two years, there should be a new wave of OpenTTD+500 threads :p
21:07:31  <andythenorth> hmm
21:07:35  <andythenorth> how should I organise
21:07:49  * andythenorth is thinking truck models in a range of sizes
21:08:09  <andythenorth> refittable to all cargos
21:08:29  <andythenorth> rather than 'tanker truck', 'box truck', 'hopper truck' etc
21:08:41  <andythenorth> it should make for a shorter buy menu
21:09:35  <andythenorth> how to do articulated trucks?
21:09:58  <supermop> yes
21:10:05  <Zuu> Hmm, model series? Eg. think of you having a truck factory and making modular trucks where the load type is a module that you choose.
21:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yep, one truck that can refit to every cargo.
21:10:40  <andythenorth> I just mean 'Bob 16t 3 axle truck'
21:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not much different than ships
21:10:49  <andythenorth> 'Sue 20t 4 axle truck
21:10:51  <andythenorth> etc
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21:11:10  <Zuu> I was mainly commenting the naming of the generic trucks. Sorry if that was lost. :-)
21:11:12  <Prof_Frink> Big Dave 18 axle behemoth
21:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Project Manager Dave :p
21:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> man... why did you have to remind me!
21:13:26  <Eddi|zuHause> call a model "Thor 82" and everybody who knows the in-joke chuckles :p
21:13:29  <andythenorth> what's annoying about current / default truck sets?
21:13:39  <Prof_Frink> Stick a trailer on the back of this: http://www.bloodhoundssc.com/car/facts_and_figures/cad_drawings.cfm
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21:13:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I should call one "Little Thor"
21:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: lack of colours, lack of variety
21:14:08  <andythenorth> that's an in-joke of an in-joke of an in-joke
21:14:08  <andythenorth> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPNjWWQqWCA
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21:14:45  <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: I've seen that thing
21:14:51  <andythenorth> they seem to have built the shell already
21:15:10  <andythenorth> I thought it was a publicity mockup, but seems to be the real thing
21:15:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: lack of colours?
21:16:04  <andythenorth> you want non-CC?
21:16:14  <Prof_Frink> We want 2CC!
21:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> basically nobody ever completed a truck set, and LV4 stinks (sorry George ;))
21:16:51  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: LVv4 is pointless, gameplay-wise.
21:17:04  <andythenorth> why?
21:17:11  * andythenorth only uses eGRVTS
21:17:44  <Prof_Frink> Most of the "newer" trucks are slower and carry less than the older ones.
21:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have faith that GermanRV gets finished anytime soon either
21:18:45  <planetmaker> yeah. :S
21:18:50  <planetmaker> and he won't release it
21:19:20  <planetmaker> in a usuable manner
21:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if by "release" you mean "put on bananas"?!
21:21:05  <planetmaker> ach... Leanden bores me
21:21:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that'd make it widely available and usuable, yes
21:21:23  <planetmaker> and imho 'official'
21:21:26  <andythenorth> oh
21:21:29  <andythenorth> I want to flame him
21:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, i surely tried...
21:21:55  <planetmaker> I know...
21:22:09  * andythenorth avoids flaming
21:22:32  <andythenorth> people, generally, can be fricking stupid
21:22:46  <andythenorth> this I has observed in my short life
21:23:24  * andythenorth has observed andythenorth being stupid
21:23:31  <planetmaker> :-)
21:24:03  <andythenorth> many parameters double the amount of QA required
21:24:25  <andythenorth> if 2 parameters produce 4 configurations, that's 4 times the QA
21:24:39  <andythenorth> if 3 parameters produce 9 configurations...and so on :P
21:25:08  <andythenorth> and then your code dies because it's buggy, and the complexity of any change in mind boggling
21:25:14  <andythenorth> so no it's not more efficient
21:25:29  <andythenorth> an add-on is *way* more efficient
21:25:44  <andythenorth> because some other bugger has to QA that, not me
21:26:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: c&p this to the thread ;-)
21:26:24  <andythenorth> you do it :P
21:26:29  <planetmaker> it's not a flame. It's a well-deserved lecture then ;-)
21:26:30  * andythenorth is a bad teacher
21:26:47  <andythenorth> I've tried being a teacher, I'm not well suited
21:27:26  <peter1138> bah, RoadStops are very road specific
21:27:39  <andythenorth> how rude
21:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRF Ports!
21:27:54  <andythenorth> it would be more surprising if RoadStops were very rail specific
21:27:58  <planetmaker> there you go, andythenorth ;-)
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21:31:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: colours for trucks?
21:31:21  <andythenorth> to return to the topic
21:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause> 2cc would be a good start
21:32:05  <frosch123> isn't randomly coloured stuff more fun?
21:32:06  <andythenorth> any particular scheme?
21:32:10  <andythenorth> egrvts is 2cc
21:32:23  <supermop> i like 2cc
21:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> random colour could be cool, too
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21:32:39  <andythenorth> I'm not likely to do random colour
21:32:43  <leanden> howdy
21:32:50  <leanden> thought id come to IRC to save posting
21:32:51  <andythenorth> all other sets I do are 2cc
21:33:02  <supermop> i usually play as the only company,
21:33:29  <supermop> so it doesnt make sense that equipment of any other color would end up in my world
21:33:43  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's possible to combine 2cc and random
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21:34:01  <planetmaker> like, opengfx+trains uses 2cc with some containers being random, but most 2cc
21:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i haven't really used eGRVTS yet, other than the horsies ;)
21:34:14  <leanden> andy
21:34:22  <leanden> if i wanted to discuss a FIRS addon with you
21:34:30  <leanden> would it be best here or in a seperate channel?
21:34:50  * Eddi|zuHause tries to hold back :p
21:35:40  <andythenorth> here
21:35:48  <andythenorth> I'm going to sleep in a minute though
21:35:54  <andythenorth> you can discuss it with others
21:35:58  <andythenorth> they'll help you ;)
21:36:02  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: horse-back riders are missing ;-) for express cargo in the years 0 ... 1400 era or so ;-)
21:36:29  <leanden> ill discuss it tomorrow then ;)
21:36:33  <leanden> but im going to do it
21:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 piece of engineering supplies :p
21:36:34  <leanden> :)
21:36:40  <leanden> night all
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21:36:57  <planetmaker> lol
21:37:07  <andythenorth> he'll learn
21:37:24  * andythenorth bed time
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21:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i gave up that hope years ago.
21:37:36  <planetmaker> :-)
21:37:45  <planetmaker> bros - must one say more?
21:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have refrained from actually looking at that
21:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what i have seen from Leanden otherwise is bad enough
21:38:18  <frosch123> night
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23:14:27  <Terkhen> good night
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23:54:23  <leanden> Anyone in here know anything about GRFmaker?
23:54:40  <SpComb> the very old tool from TTDPatch times?
23:59:53  <leanden> ye
23:59:59  <leanden> well im trying to start learning to code