Log for #openttd on 20th May 2011:
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06:33:07  <planetmaker> g'morning
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06:45:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is it auto-renew or auto-replace that would need to be taught to handle upgraded vehicles (same ID)?
06:46:50  <LordAro> moin
06:53:59  <peter1138> auto-renew, for same ID
06:55:39  <andythenorth> so lets say vehicle ID 01h has models A and B
06:55:49  <andythenorth> model B becomes available, it's faster, better stronger
06:55:56  <andythenorth> what next?
06:56:11  <andythenorth> how does the player choose to replace all A model with B model?
07:02:31  <peter1138> they can't
07:02:38  <peter1138> it'll happen if the vehicle gets autorenewed
07:03:42  <andythenorth> yarp
07:03:50  <andythenorth> well that already works :)
07:04:31  <Terkhen> good morning
07:04:34  <peter1138> so what's the issue? heh
07:04:45  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
07:08:32  <andythenorth> peter1138: the issue is that Eddi|zuHause thinks that upgrading vehicles  is annoying (same ID, new stats)
07:08:42  <andythenorth> because the older ones can't be auto-replaced to new
07:11:02  <Terkhen> how is that handled now? if an old vehicle goes to a depot it gets the stats of the new model?
07:11:19  <andythenorth> for auto-renew yes
07:11:23  <planetmaker> it's something which can't be forced. It only will happen, if the vehicle (automatically) replaces itself by a new version
07:11:26  <andythenorth> for auto-replace - not possible
07:11:35  <planetmaker> i.e. if it's too old
07:11:51  * andythenorth suggested a new cb, identifying vehicle models
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07:12:04  <andythenorth> but that would complexify auto-replace somewhat :P
07:12:06  <andythenorth> ho pikka
07:12:12  <andythenorth> it's all pikka's fault anyway :D
07:12:36  <planetmaker> autoreplace / autorenew rather could be somewhat unified. It's very similar anyway
07:13:13  <planetmaker> but that's a boring task, I heart
07:13:24  <andythenorth> "autoreplace if reliability is <n"
07:13:31  <andythenorth> would be sometimes helpful
07:13:36  <pikka> auto remove pootis
07:14:14  <andythenorth> pikka: upgrading vehicle stats over time - does UKRS 2 do that?  or just NARS 2?
07:14:19  <pikka> just "if old" would do me
07:14:45  <pikka> no ukrs2 I can think of
07:14:51  <planetmaker> [09:13]	andythenorth	"autoreplace if reliability is <n" <-- yes, that often would suffice
07:15:07  <pikka> just nars (and av8)
07:15:16  <andythenorth> av8 does it?
07:15:18  <andythenorth> I missed that :)
07:15:22  <andythenorth> HEQS does it
07:15:45  <andythenorth> I think the truck set I'm starting will do it
07:15:52  <andythenorth> can't see another way to avoid spamming buy menu
07:18:59  <pikka> Andy; yep, av8 has 2 generations of several aircraft
07:19:13  <pikka> and 3 Boeing 737s
07:20:08  <andythenorth> ok good
07:20:16  <andythenorth> that means you didn't decide the idea sucks :)
07:20:25  <andythenorth> might use it in FISH as well, not sure
07:20:47  <pikka> its a good idea only if theres no reason the player would want the older model
07:21:11  * pikka has a bus to drive
07:21:14  <andythenorth> hoo
07:21:18  <pikka> later chaps
07:21:25  <andythenorth> bye
07:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how many models do you think you need?!?
07:31:19  <Eddi|zuHause> gtg
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07:34:55  <peter1138> andythenorth, the problem with doing it with a callback is you have to check the callback "all the time"
07:35:51  <peter1138> and i say, if the models actually have better specs, you should be using different IDs anyway
07:42:41  <andythenorth> meh
07:42:46  <andythenorth> that spams the buy menu :P
07:42:51  <andythenorth> imo
07:46:41  * andythenorth thinks the replace issue is over-stated
07:46:50  <andythenorth> and can be handled by set design
07:47:01  <planetmaker> it only spams the buy menu, if 'vehicles never expire' is turned on ;-)
07:47:11  * planetmaker always uses that, though
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07:49:59  <andythenorth> me too
07:50:08  <andythenorth> otherwise clone can annoyingly fail
07:50:39  * andythenorth -> work
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07:59:02  <planetmaker> <-- somewhat fences are wrong ;-)
07:59:58  <planetmaker> Yexo: is there a way to define the statemachine's offset wrt tile 0/0 (northern most) of an airport?
08:00:21  <planetmaker> currently it seems to like the south more
08:09:45  <peter1138> oh
08:10:00  <peter1138> the first large airport has 2 flashing yellow pixels where there shouldn't be...
08:10:08  <peter1138> (in opengfx)
08:11:18  <planetmaker> do you have a screenshot of which you mean?
08:11:19  <peter1138> just to the left of the control tower
08:11:26  <peter1138> yeah, making one :)
08:12:17  <planetmaker> :-)
08:12:41  <peter1138>
08:13:02  <planetmaker> ah, I see. Thanks
08:14:31  <__ln__> that red house is dangerously close to the end of runway
08:15:47  <planetmaker> they're used to 'noise concerns' :-P
08:16:04  <peter1138> yeah
08:16:16  <peter1138> well i don't know how they got planning permission, but it's their problem
08:16:20  <peter1138> it was built after the airport :)
08:16:32  <peter1138> all those houses were, in fact
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08:23:10  <planetmaker> <-- if you want, there's a fixed version
08:26:11  <planetmaker> btw, reset_newgrfs also works with base sets
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09:12:51  <pikka> Andy: I think some of the early game generational locos in hard should probably be split into multiple vehicles
09:13:05  <pikka> hard?
09:13:10  <pikka> nars
09:13:26  * pikka gets off the phone
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09:14:47  <andythenorth> pikka: maybe yes
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09:14:52  <andythenorth> but I like it generally as it stands
09:14:57  <andythenorth> can't talk now - work :|
09:15:25  <Pikka> ok
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09:19:13  <deus> morning
09:19:22  <deus> just checking out openttd.
09:19:51  <deus> Only thing I cannot find on your wiki: does the game have a campaign?
09:20:11  <deus> i.e. a little story line, objectives to accomplish etc
09:20:15  <Chrill> it does not, deus
09:20:23  <Chrill> I prefer to set up my own personal goals
09:20:30  <Chrill> "I want to connect this city to this in 50 years"
09:20:36  <Chrill> or "I want to make this much money in this amount of time"
09:20:55  <deus> Chrill: hm ok. that's a pitty :(
09:21:31  <Chrill> It's an open-ended game, which means you also never "finish" a game :)
09:21:44  <Chrill> unless, of course, you consider connecting every city a finish
09:23:21  <deus> still I hope they add some kind of campaign. Games like simcity, or other tycoon games usually have a free-build mode, or a campaign or at least achievements :)
09:23:29  <deus> but I guess that's a matter of personal taste
09:23:59  <Chrill> Absolutely
09:24:16  <Chrill> I see the attraction of achievements
09:24:22  <Chrill> it gives you.. well, a sense of achievement :P
09:24:28  <deus> exactly :)
09:25:11  <deus> I just love the 'You are victorious' messages ;)
09:27:44  <Terkhen> there is one at 2050
09:28:14  <deus> Terkhen: ah nice
09:28:51  <Terkhen>
09:29:22  <Terkhen> it is a somewhat boring goal, though, most players do what Chrill said
09:29:24  <deus> any plans to add achievements or 'levels' in which you have to accomplish certain objectives in a given setting i.e. make a profitable railway system in a mountain area, etc?
09:29:36  <Terkhen> there are no plans for that
09:30:56  <planetmaker> though openttd can accept well worked-out patches
09:31:24  <planetmaker> the general concensus - as far as I see - is, that a scenario framework wouldn't hurt. But lots of work
09:32:03  <deus> planetmaker: a scenario's would be great. No need for a real story line.
09:32:18  <planetmaker> well. We DO have a scenario editor
09:32:44  <planetmaker> The "problem" is, that after the start, the scenario is 'just' another normal map. Without special goals or so
09:32:51  <Terkhen> a scenario framework would allow to set goals for each scenario, but besides a few ideas there are no work and no plans in that direction
09:33:00  <planetmaker> The only thing a SE editor currently can do is to set goals by simply stating them
09:33:12  <planetmaker> what Terkhen says, yes.
09:33:34  <peter1138> what can squirrel access?
09:33:51  <peter1138> could a scenario framework 'just be' a squirrel script...
09:34:09  <peter1138> mind you, then people would complain that a simple scenario is too much work to set up
09:34:11  <deus> planetmaker: ah well, hopefully it's added at some point, but it's still great to see such a great game being reworked :)
09:34:35  <Terkhen> AIs can access a lot of stuff, but I don't know how much of "other companies information" they can check
09:34:40  <planetmaker> peter1138: in principle yes. The other option is a modified / extended admin port
09:34:53  <peter1138> i prefer a built-in system
09:34:58  <planetmaker> ais can't now. But...
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09:44:07  <planetmaker> <-- one additional view...
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11:33:25  <anujmore> Guys at OpenTTD. Can you help me understand how the basic station (scroll down almost to the end of the page) setup works in
11:33:52  <Noldo> basic two-way?
11:34:02  <anujmore> Yeah
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11:34:27  <Noldo> looks like there are 2 sets on one-way tracks comming to the station
11:34:50  <Noldo> all signals have to be pathbased for that to work
11:35:05  <anujmore> I find it really confusing.
11:35:10  <anujmore> There should be more examples on signals.
11:35:32  <Noldo> you have to make them then
11:36:00  <anujmore> I surely will. But not before I myself understand signals :P
11:36:10  <Chris_Booth_> anujmore there are more examples, but you have to remember the is a wiki
11:36:29  <Chris_Booth_> has alot of good signaling advise
11:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there are more examples of signals here and here
11:39:19  <anujmore> Eddi|zuHause: I checked kokolokus before
11:39:23  <anujmore> Checking other links now.
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12:29:26  <ChoHag_> Why can't the linux openttd read zip files?
12:29:52  <glx> windows version can't either
12:30:00  <ChoHag_> Really?
12:30:04  <Terkhen> really
12:30:10  <ChoHag_> So why is everything apparently distributed as a zip?
12:30:22  <ChoHag_> Also: Why not?
12:30:29  <Terkhen> I don't know what files are you talking about
12:30:38  <glx> grfs are distributed as tar
12:31:38  <ChoHag_> I've definitely downloaded things in a zip before.
12:31:44  <ChoHag_> The Open*x things, for one.
12:32:14  <ChoHag_> But why can't it read zips? What was the rationale behind that decision?
12:32:26  <Terkhen> why should it read zips?
12:32:40  <ChoHag_> Because everthing and its dog reads zips.
12:33:00  <__ln__> I can't read zips either, i use some program to uncompress them first.
12:33:09  <ChoHag_> You clearly don't have a dog.
12:33:10  <Terkhen> you know what I meant... what's the benefit of reading zips?
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12:34:39  <ChoHag_> Random access, and it's effectively the standard archive format for everybody except Richard Stallman and has been since the dawn of time.
12:35:16  <Terkhen> your reasons are quite vague, I fail to see why "everyone does it" is a benefit
12:35:28  <glx> lzma is better :)
12:35:34  <Terkhen> that too :P
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12:35:49  <Belugas> hello
12:35:51  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
12:36:06  <ChoHag_> I don't personally care. My archive software can copy with everything.
12:36:10  <TWerkhoven> if thats a valid reason, openttd should have an internet brower too, after all, everyone uses it
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12:36:25  <ChoHag_> I am wondering what the rationale behind not supporting it, as it is so ubiquitous, is.
12:36:27  <Wolf01> hello
12:36:48  <Belugas> hello sir Terkhen,hello sir Wolf01 :)
12:36:52  <Terkhen> I still don't know what files are you talking about, scenarios? AIs? base sets?
12:36:55  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
12:37:03  <ChoHag_> Never mind.
12:37:21  <Belugas> supporting what?
12:37:54  <Wolf01> mmmh, looks like webring redirects my homepage to the ring...
12:38:11  <Terkhen> Belugas: files compressed in zip, but I don't know which ones
12:38:27  <Belugas> ho
12:39:01  <Belugas> who cares about the format, as long as it's compressed :)
12:39:06  <Terkhen> IIRC everything besides AIs is already compressed
12:42:26  <Belugas> the thing is, as long as memory serves, zip is not as efficient (size/speed) as current compression
12:43:20  <peter1138> why not write a patch to support it?
12:47:14  <planetmaker> Belugas: quite right.
12:47:28  <planetmaker> the (default) xz gains by 20% iirc
12:48:34  <peter1138> Terkhen, what's compressed?
12:49:11  <Terkhen> savegames/scenarios, newgrfs (although I don't know how much), heightmaps
12:49:25  <planetmaker> content_download uses gz afaik. savegames xz (by default). But configurable via config file
12:50:39  <Terkhen> in content_download I only have plain tars, are they extracted after download?
12:50:57  <glx> yup
12:51:01  <Belugas> good question, to which i don't have anser
12:51:06  <Terkhen> good :)
12:51:07  <Belugas> ho well :)
12:53:38  <planetmaker> that's why we had broken tars when zlib 1.2.3_4.(?) was floating around ;-)
12:53:57  <planetmaker> uncompression after download ate the last chunk
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13:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause> <ChoHag_> Random access, and it's effectively the standard archive format for everybody except Richard Stallman and has been since the dawn of time. <-- then i must be from beyond the dawn of time, since i remember everybody's standard archive format being ARJ
13:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that may have been 20 years ago, though :p
13:07:57  <Terkhen> ARJ was the de facto standard before the dawn of time, yes :P
13:10:20  <Rubidium> ChoHag_: maybe because zip isn't a standardised format, nor is it 100% clear that the format isn't patent/copyright/trademark encumbered
13:11:08  <Rubidium> whereas tar is standardized
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13:13:56  <ChoHag_> Hmm what's this + sign next to some engines, and which newgrf did it come from?
13:14:25  <Terkhen> do you have a screenshot?
13:15:15  <ChoHag_> You mean you don't KNOW?
13:15:49  <ChoHag_> Bah I always mix up select and crop...
13:17:07  <Terkhen> it should be obvious from before that I'm quite bad at guessing
13:17:23  <ChoHag_>
13:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it's likely the UKRS addon
13:18:27  <ChoHag_> Any idea what it's doing?
13:18:30  <ChoHag_> I didn't see a readme.
13:18:39  <Ammler> what does grfcodec use to compress, btw.?
13:18:50  <Ammler> could be changed to lzma too, maybe :-)
13:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it adds engines that were left out for game balance reasons
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13:19:06  <Yexo> only real sprites are compressed
13:19:12  <Yexo> the actionsprites are not compressed at all
13:19:28  <ChoHag_> Eddi|zuHause: Where 'it' == the GRF, or the engines with a +?
13:19:39  <Yexo> Ammler: it uses LZ77
13:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag_: yes.
13:20:15  <ChoHag_> OK that's an 'or' question, you can't say 'yes'.
13:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
13:20:38  <Ammler> Yexo: which lib does openttd use to uncompress or is that own code?
13:20:44  <ChoHag_> Also, on compression, I'm sorry I asked, but I *did* just ask why the choice was made, not propose that a better/worse one be made instead.
13:20:46  <Yexo> own code
13:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag_: the choice against zip is for the reasons Rubidium mentioned above
13:21:55  <Rubidium> compression sucks when you need to jump back and forth though a file very often, so we use an uncompressed format
13:22:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the choice against compression at all is for access speed/code complexity reasons
13:22:52  <Rubidium> and... OpenTTD already needed zlib for compressing the savegame, so decompressing .gz is trivial without extra dependencies
13:23:12  <Rubidium> whereas for zip it requires adding extra libraries
13:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> compression is only used for seldom tasks like downloading or saving/loading. reading grf content is a frequent task
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13:25:34  <ChoHag_> The cargo payent rate for alcohol in FIRS is wrong.
13:25:39  <ChoHag_> It should go up with time.
13:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
13:28:35  <Terkhen> heh :D
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13:57:52  <Belugas> maybe because andythenorth put his fantasy of cheap alcohol in FIRS :)
13:59:03  <Prof_Frink> Or maybe because you're transporting it, not buying it.
13:59:08  <Prof_Frink> (Too realistic?)
13:59:33  <Belugas> qute :)
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14:10:50  <planetmaker> hm, defining a whole airport anew is a lengthy task...
14:17:19  <Yexo> which is why I haven't finished airportsplus yet :)
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14:20:24  <Belugas> ask Richk :)
14:20:33  <Belugas> he'll do it in a five minute flat hehe
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14:45:54  <Belugas> mmh... next vewrsion of our main app is going to be 5.7.7 SS
14:46:24  <Belugas> i have 2 out of 3 bosses that are jews.  i wonder if i should not skip that version..
14:47:18  <planetmaker> did you skip the others, too?
14:48:18  <Ammler> if you skip it, you might need to explain why, that is worse
14:48:31  <Belugas> which ones?
14:49:06  <Ammler> else SS is just a version
14:49:13  <Terkhen> 5.7.6 SS for example
14:49:58  <Belugas> true that, Ammler (explaining part)
14:50:17  <Belugas> ho.. i unserdatnd, planetmaker.  no, since that letter scheme was not in place back tehn
14:50:19  <Belugas> then
14:50:43  <planetmaker> Belugas: also not for SA?
14:51:06  <Belugas> ?
14:51:31  <Ammler>
14:51:33  * Rubidium would argue that a large percentage of two and three letter acronyms are insulting tome
14:51:46  <planetmaker>
14:51:54  <planetmaker> :-)
14:52:01  <planetmaker> Ammler was faster
14:52:01  <Ammler> planetmaker: fix your client lag :-P
14:52:09  <planetmaker> rather layer 8 lag
14:52:17  <Belugas> heheh SA is too regional for us ;)
14:52:18  <planetmaker> paste, enter, read back ;-)
14:53:10  <Ammler> Belugas: if the English wikipedia uses the German word, it isn't regional, imo
14:53:39  <planetmaker> nope. SS was part of SA
14:54:43  <Belugas> well... i meant that for most of north americans, SS is known while SA is not.  You have to be somewhat connected.
14:54:43  <planetmaker> dunno, I think the worst thing is the sissors in the head and to 2nd guess everything
15:02:32  <peter1138> leave a bug in it
15:02:42  <peter1138> so that there'll have to be a quick fix to ST
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15:05:09  <Ammler> :-)
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15:13:30  <Belugas> hehehe
15:13:32  <Belugas> good point :)
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15:30:41  * andythenorth is having a belugas day with respect to people saying 'in real life it would work like this...'
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15:38:38  <planetmaker> <-- :-D Obviously the fences are wrong ;-)
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15:44:51  <Belugas> obiwan strike?
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15:45:23  <Belugas> andythenorth, behead them, they are not worth living!
15:47:46  <planetmaker> also... that's the small heliport for the REALLY BIG helicopters it seems ;-)
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16:09:42  <Belugas> wahhh!!!  Already lunch hour!
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16:48:21  <peter1138> arrr
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17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22480 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt spanish.txt):
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 5 changes by IPG
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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18:39:00  <andythenorth> evening
18:39:03  * andythenorth is out of variations
18:40:31  <Alberth> evening andy
18:41:25  <supermop> variations on piano etudes?
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18:44:17  <andythenorth> probably
18:44:43  <peter1138> andrew lloyd webber's variations?
18:45:19  <andythenorth> perhaps
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18:47:16  <andythenorth> anyone know more than me about python buildout?
18:47:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds evil
18:47:53  <andythenorth> it's not massively evil
18:48:02  <andythenorth> there are more evil things
18:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a group of adrenaline junkies meet in a dark alley and have illegal races with tuned pythons
18:49:07  <supermop> i want to do that
18:49:45  <andythenorth> Yexo: is nml already egg-ified?  I can't quite figure out eggs yet
18:50:16  <Yexo> no idea what that is exactly, so I don't know
18:50:19  <andythenorth> :)
18:50:22  <andythenorth> me neither
18:50:31  <andythenorth> it has which seems to be one of the main criteria
18:50:46  <Yexo> is because it uses setuptools
18:51:17  <andythenorth> yup
18:58:07  * andythenorth reads internets
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19:27:41  <Alberth> eggs are evil
19:28:26  <Eddi|zuHause> evil eggs for evil persons... no wait, something isn't right there
19:28:48  <Alberth> Yexo: distutils already has, the other build program copied that idea
19:29:36  <Yexo> right, distutils it was
19:30:09  <Alberth> they all try to be 'better', and failed, as they enter the domain of package managers
19:30:29  * andythenorth tries to figure out if we'd need to move nml files around to suit buildout convention
19:31:04  <Alberth> that would be an indication of a broken build/packaging(?) system :)
19:31:13  <andythenorth> maybe
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19:31:25  <andythenorth> buildout is approximately as broken as anything else
19:32:22  <Alberth> so no reason to use buildout? :p
19:32:31  <andythenorth> :P
19:32:36  <andythenorth> no reason not to
19:33:24  <andythenorth> the only reasons not to are (a) I can't figure it out (b) no-one else is that interested :P
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19:34:57  <andythenorth> I intended to start BANDIT yesterday and have now been diverted into this
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19:40:31  <sliddy> damn stuff
19:41:32  <Alberth> your ISP is too optimistic w.r.t. line stability :)
19:41:54  <andythenorth> hmm
19:42:05  * andythenorth is puzzled
19:48:35  <Alberth> anything I can do to unpuzzle you?
19:48:57  <andythenorth> help me figure out buildout?
19:49:34  <andythenorth>
19:49:39  <andythenorth>
19:49:51  <andythenorth> I have used buildout many times, but never created one
19:50:07  <andythenorth> I've modified the tutorial to pull down PIL and PLY, but that's trivial
19:50:17  <andythenorth> pulling in nml from the repo baffles me
19:52:19  <Alberth> hmm, it uses setuptools
19:52:23  <andythenorth> yup
19:52:29  <andythenorth> and there's a already
19:53:10  <andythenorth> last night I put nml in /src and added it to the eggs list, and the buildout didn't freak out
19:53:28  <andythenorth> but I don't know nml works wrt paths etc
19:54:13  * andythenorth is trying to use a packager he doesn't understand to package a module he doesn't understand :)
19:56:17  <Alberth> the nml directory must be findable in the python module search path, and nmlc is a program
19:56:47  <Alberth> ie must be in a PATH directory
19:58:47  * andythenorth googles how to check that
19:58:58  <andythenorth> ho
19:59:19  <andythenorth> I think buildout can set that (if a local python is provided)
19:59:35  * andythenorth wonders whether a local python is wise for nml or not
20:00:00  <Alberth> but doesn't the distutils handle that?
20:00:12  <andythenorth> possibly
20:00:16  <andythenorth> I am out of my depth
20:02:32  <Belugas> so... you are on your surface?
20:03:01  <Alberth> it looks incredible complicated at first sight.
20:03:52  <andythenorth> Alberth: "So this work we’re doing up front now can be seen as a one-time expense against all the time all your future contributors would otherwise have to spend getting up and running."
20:03:55  <andythenorth> to quote
20:04:06  <andythenorth> it took two hours to install nml yesterday
20:04:51  <andythenorth> and if a buildout can be made to work, each newgrf project can buildout nml for the user along with the project
20:06:50  <Alberth> so why not use pip?
20:07:10  <Alberth> pip is considered much better than easy_install by #python
20:07:30  <Alberth> (I have not worked with pip either)
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20:08:04  * andythenorth reads
20:11:40  <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:51  <andythenorth> either way nml will need to be an egg as far as I can see
20:13:24  <andythenorth> maybe I should go and draw some trucks
20:13:28  <andythenorth> I am not good at this stuff
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20:23:05  <ChoHag_> Is it possible to refit part of a train without using an intermediary engine?
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20:27:00  <Rubidium> Yes, not quite sure which manner is supported by the stable release, nightlies and possibly *the* patch
20:30:15  <ChoHag_> Ah you can click on the cars.
20:31:16  <ChoHag_> Didn't even see the train icon up there.
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20:58:33  <andythenorth> hmm
20:58:38  <andythenorth> truck capacities
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20:58:51  <__ln__>,1518,763954,00.html
21:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: can't be worse that a shipload of sulphuric acid leaking...
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21:09:54  <andythenorth> going by UK law, the most a large rigid truck can carry is about 18t
21:10:09  <andythenorth> eGRVTS is quite...generous
21:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that's where articulated trucks come in
21:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> update trucks by running cost (fuel consumption) instead of capacity
21:11:45  <andythenorth> I want to avoid articulated trucks in BANDIT initially
21:12:07  <andythenorth> I don't like the available implementation
21:12:32  <andythenorth> although it might be ok for a 'UK' flavour
21:13:31  <andythenorth> what's a nice range of sizes?
21:13:45  <andythenorth> 6/12/18t
21:13:52  <planetmaker> well, does it hurt to go up to 30t or so for a vehicle w/o articulation?
21:14:02  <planetmaker> after all... realism ;-)
21:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> HEQS already has that
21:14:23  <andythenorth> only for bulk cargo
21:14:51  <andythenorth> it hurts in a YACD game
21:14:57  <andythenorth> well...hurts is wrong
21:15:06  <andythenorth> more just I need a range of trucks
21:16:10  <planetmaker> I don't argue against a range of trucks. But 18t as max is quite low
21:16:26  <planetmaker> maybe 6 / 18 /30 or so
21:16:58  <planetmaker> or maybe 5 / 15 / 25 is better
21:17:05  <planetmaker> then there'll be incentive for AV later on
21:17:19  <planetmaker> which then can go up to 40
21:17:27  <andythenorth> hmm
21:17:47  <__ln__>
21:17:50  <andythenorth> it's odd (but might be right) that we increase truck capacity, but decrease train capacity
21:17:51  <planetmaker> hm, my heliport now nearly looks like a city airport :-)
21:18:37  <Eddi|zuHause> 5, 15 for normal trucks, 25 and 40 for articulated trucks
21:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> from 1920 to 1970 increase speed, after that, decrease running cost
21:19:40  <andythenorth> 40 is high for uk / eu
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21:19:55  <Eddi|zuHause> new generation every ~15 years, makes 1920, 1935, 1950, 1965, 1980, 1995, 2010
21:20:00  <andythenorth> what's the gameplay benefit of over-sized trucks?
21:20:19  <Eddi|zuHause> 7 generations of trucks
21:20:27  <Terkhen> you need less trucks to cover the same route
21:20:29  <andythenorth> e.g. gameplay purpose of undersized wagons is to make longer trains
21:21:53  <andythenorth> should I just implement a size parameter immediately?
21:22:03  <andythenorth> rather than repeating same argument for next n months?
21:22:17  <andythenorth> @calc 18*1.5
21:22:17  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 27
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21:23:21  <andythenorth> @calc 25/18
21:23:21  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.38888888889
21:23:25  <andythenorth> hmm
21:23:39  <andythenorth> @calc 5*1.4
21:23:39  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 7
21:23:44  <andythenorth> not too bad
21:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- vehicles in vehicles ;)
21:24:12  <andythenorth> my first train set featured that
21:25:18  <andythenorth> I was thinking capacity multiplier for HEQS as well
21:25:20  <andythenorth> (smaller)
21:26:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: every 15 years is about right
21:27:04  <andythenorth> but I want a little more variety than that
21:27:16  <andythenorth> I think I can solve your niggle with upgrades
21:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have the variety with the different capacity models
21:27:39  <andythenorth> I'm planning multiple manufacturers
21:27:57  <andythenorth> I like how pikka sets offer multiple similar vehicles
21:28:03  <andythenorth> the choice is interesting
21:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so you'll have like three roughly same models at the same time?
21:28:15  <andythenorth> or two might be enough
21:28:32  <andythenorth> but they'll have different IDs, and I'll stagger who releases improved models when
21:28:47  <andythenorth> so you can flip back and forth to latest greatest with auto-replace
21:29:05  <andythenorth> but not spamming buy menu too much
21:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that means
21:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> one annoying problem with "upgrades" is that you won't get notifications that it is available
21:29:52  <andythenorth> true
21:29:54  <andythenorth> hmm
21:29:58  <andythenorth> can't solve that
21:30:09  <andythenorth> can solve your other problem
21:30:15  <Terkhen> nobody likes road vehicles anyways :P
21:30:15  <andythenorth> I'll take 1 out of 2
21:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm already annoyed that it's not available for wagons
21:30:18  <Terkhen> or at least the small ones
21:30:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: patch? :P
21:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123 made a patch for that, afair
21:31:05  * andythenorth thinks maybe a 'model' cb might not be so stupid...
21:31:32  <frosch123> something was horribly broken with that patch
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21:31:54  <andythenorth> cb is only used when grf is initialised
21:32:01  <andythenorth> returns n dates
21:32:12  <andythenorth> dates correspond to generations / models
21:32:28  <andythenorth> must be in order
21:32:39  * andythenorth is not good at spec
21:33:22  <andythenorth> could be used to announce upgrades
21:33:24  <Chris_Booth> lol cb highlights me
21:33:28  <SmatZ> :D
21:33:29  <Chris_Booth> and I was like WTF
21:33:49  <andythenorth> and it was like beep beep beep
21:33:55  <Chris_Booth> yes
21:34:04  <Chris_Booth> I may have to take that off my list
21:34:07  <andythenorth> in that case I'll go to sleep :P
21:34:16  <andythenorth> BANDIT can wait
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21:34:18  * SmatZ wishes andythenorth good night
21:34:23  <andythenorth> bye SmatZ :)
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21:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe the solution could be the same as what i proposed previously for "regearing" refits: decoupling the subcargo bits from actual cargo, so you can refit without any cargo
21:35:08  <SmatZ> late Eddi is lat
21:35:10  <SmatZ> e
21:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> damn
21:35:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's annoying when he does that...
21:35:54  <Thorn_> sleep? ;p
21:36:48  <SmatZ> don't even mention that word :p
21:37:50  <Terkhen> suddenly saying bye and dissapearing? :P
21:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> around here it's called a "blitzquitter" :p
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21:42:08  <Terkhen> :D
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22:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should be careful when i leave the room, in case the cat decides to hunt in the asciiquarium...
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23:28:54  <frosch123> night
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23:29:17  <Terkhen> good night
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