Log for #openttd on 21st May 2011:
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00:40:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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05:48:11  <andythenorth> nml depends on grfcodec?
05:48:52  <andythenorth> or no?
05:49:22  <andythenorth> no
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07:58:23  <andythenorth> new FISH :P
07:59:38  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:23:36  <LordAro> moin all
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08:41:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22481 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: compilation with recent GCC
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09:03:25  <Wolf01> hello
09:09:57  <frosch123> morning
09:11:15  <Terkhen> hi frosch123 and Wolf01
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09:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365/2.5
09:58:41  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 146
09:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 255*2.5
09:58:58  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 637.5
10:02:35  <frosch123> @calc 256/74
10:02:35  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 3.45945945946
10:03:22  <frosch123> @calc 250/74
10:03:22  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 3.37837837838
10:04:33  <frosch123> @calc 184/74
10:04:33  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2.48648648649
10:04:42  <frosch123> maybe we should turn those into constants
10:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 185/74
10:05:03  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2.5
10:05:29  <frosch123> morning obiwan
10:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> not the first ;)
10:11:42  <peter1138> hmm, large airports are silly on a 256x256 map
10:11:42  <peter1138> so...
10:11:54  <frosch123> they are silly on any map
10:12:17  <peter1138> possibly not with 75%+ sea level
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10:40:07  <frosch123> cool, there is a limitation of one lumber mill triggering sound effects
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11:11:33  <SigHunter> how can i set forbid_90_deg = false with rcon on a dedicated server?
11:11:58  <Terkhen> rcon password "set forbid_90_deg false" IIRC
11:12:52  <SigHunter> thx Terkhen
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11:15:42  <SigHunter> is it possible to increase the max loan more than 500000? setting max_loan = 1500000 in config didnt help
11:16:24  <SigHunter> (and interest to >4%?)
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11:18:07  <Terkhen> using "set setting" without a value will tell you the minimum and maximum values
11:23:22  <SigHunter> k max is 500k
11:23:25  <SigHunter> :/
11:26:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22482 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Add some contants for the number of ticks between certain cyclical tasks.
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11:34:36  <peter1138> hmm
11:34:42  <peter1138> right, starting a new game
11:34:49  <peter1138> yacd of course :D
11:36:19  <peter1138> hmm, problem i find with cities is they often start too big to place stations nicely
11:36:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you place stations outside the city and build a tram system as feeder
11:37:05  <peter1138> no newgrfs
11:37:07  <peter1138> so no trams
11:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> then use busses ;)
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11:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ported the passenger reduction patch yet?
11:44:06  <Alberth> @seen anyone
11:44:06  <DorpsGek> Alberth: anyone was last seen in #openttd 19 weeks, 2 days, 19 hours, 16 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <anyone> hi
11:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> almost as lazy as someone...
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12:08:55  <peter1138> hmm
12:08:56  <peter1138> now
12:08:59  <peter1138> shall i start big
12:09:05  <peter1138> or start "as needed"
12:09:21  <Rubidium> as big as eventually needed
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12:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm reluctant to touch daylength patches :/
12:44:10  <Rubidium> so you just touch the sprinkles
12:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "Internet latency significantly spiked since Syria replaced DSL with donkeys"
12:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> breaking news: sony hacked
12:49:36  <Rubidium> news?
12:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but "just touching the sprinkles" would include gathering all changes that ChillCore has done in his patchpack, which were not backported to the original patch
12:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> changes of the form "use ORIG_DAY_TICKS in in function XYZ"
12:56:40  <Wolf01> continue the development of mine, I don't touch day_ticks, I just stretch the visualised date
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13:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the only change of that kind i can find is in cargodist
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13:22:39  <Chat6855> hello
13:23:47  <Chat6855> my name's pauline i'm a french girl and i look for a person who'd like learn me english..
13:24:40  * planetmaker strongly advises to use a channel dedicated to general chatting or language studies then
13:24:51  <planetmaker> hello folks
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13:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only person who gets suspicious immediately after someone said "i'm a girl" on irc? :p
13:32:51  <peter1138> well, there's sacro...
13:33:09  <Alberth> hello planetmaker
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13:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* don't have a , instead of a ; in a .h file
13:59:34  <glx> depends where
14:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> where one causes an error and the other doesn't ;)
14:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... daylength does something very evil with settings
14:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the original line is: 	SDTG_CONDVAR("daylength_factor",                                 SLE_UINT8, 0, 0, _date_daylength_factor, 1,     1,     255, 1, STR_CONFIG_SETTING_DAYLENGTH_FACTOR,       NULL,                               130, SL_MAX_VERSION),
14:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> when i port that to settings.ini, i get: /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk_clean/objs/setting/table/settings.h:332:1: error: ‘daylength_factor’ was not declared in this scope
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14:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- this is what i wrote
14:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> according to this template: SDTG_VAR   =   SDTG_VAR($name,       $type, $flags, $guiflags, $var, $def, $min, $max, $interval, $str, $strval, $proc, $from, $to),
14:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i see... i might be missing the ""
14:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... doesn't work either
14:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the "" are stripped during generation of settings.h
14:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if i add them manually, it works
14:10:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well... "it compiles"
14:10:13  <SliGo> fine
14:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> aha. works when i use double ""
14:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 74*8/30
14:13:52  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 19.7333333333
14:14:02  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 74*8/33
14:14:02  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 17.9393939394
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16:04:54  <weirdy> Hello
16:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you are not weirdo
16:06:22  <weirdy> uhhh, ok
16:06:37  <weirdy> So, I have a problem with a save game relating to a broken grf
16:09:39  <weirdy> So, I have a savegame that was using HEQS 0.5c and it is now producing a read past end of psuedo sprite error. Thus it is being disabled and so my 4 RVs have 0mph max speed.
16:09:45  <weirdy> Is there anyway to remove them?
16:09:55  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried updating heqs?
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16:10:49  <weirdy> yes, I've got HEQS 1.1.0 and it doesn't seem to change the RVs
16:10:53  <Terkhen> the current HEQS is probably not savegame compatible with such an old version
16:10:59  <weirdy> indeed
16:11:08  <Terkhen> weirdy: which version of OpenTTD are you using?
16:11:12  <weirdy> 1.1.0
16:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause> weirdy: you could also try decoding your old heqs with grfcodec, run nforenum over it, and encode it again
16:11:52  <Terkhen> do you have realistic acceleration for road vehicles enabled? it forces a minimal speed of 1 km/h, that should let you to take them to a depot
16:12:14  <weirdy> ah, that may work Terkhen, thanks
16:12:33  <Terkhen> it will not fix broken HEQS in your game, though... you should update your NewGRFs for your next game
16:13:01  <weirdy> odc
16:13:10  <weirdy> *ofc, and thanks for the setting tip :D
16:13:21  <peter1138> damn it
16:13:33  <peter1138> do we really need to see all these queried from messages by default?
16:13:37  <peter1138> (dedicated server)
16:14:01  <planetmaker> weirdy: HEQS does NOT change vehicles. It just ADDS vehicles
16:14:21  <weirdy> right, and?
16:14:48  <peter1138> pedanticism ;)
16:15:01  <Terkhen> what probably happened is that his savegame was made with a previous version of OpenTTD... now loading of "broken" NewGRFs is more restrictive and HEQS was disabled, letting the existing HEQS vehicles broken
16:15:01  <weirdy> no pedantry meant
16:15:42  <weirdy> also, what Terkhen said
16:15:43  <Terkhen> HEQS 1.1.0 does not have that problem, and it also fixes and adds lots of stuff
16:20:34  * andythenorth goes to the moon
16:20:38  <andythenorth> on a spoon
16:21:01  <andythenorth> quiet here today
16:21:21  <andythenorth> probably because there is no andythenorth_monologue
16:21:56  <andythenorth> did someone release vehicles in vehicles already?
16:23:00  <weirdy> vehicles in vehicles?
16:23:57  <Vikthor> hey andythenorth, I've been trying the new FISH, the small tug is really very handy with yacd, good job!
16:24:25  <andythenorth> there's more in the works
16:24:30  <andythenorth> I'm waiting on graphics
16:25:16  <peter1138> well, i got distracted by multistop-docks
16:25:35  <peter1138> now i built an airport network
16:25:38  <peter1138> but run out of money :S
16:25:51  <weirdy> seriously now, vehicles _in_ vehicles?
16:26:42  <peter1138> like trucks on trains
16:26:47  <peter1138> or trucks and trains on ships
16:26:53  <Eddi|zuHause> like trains on trucks
16:26:55  <andythenorth> I'd take multi-stop docks as an interesting challenge in game
16:26:58  <weirdy> there a topic for it?
16:27:12  <andythenorth> multi-stop breaks my infinite capacity ship routes :P
16:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:27:46  <andythenorth> Vikthor: in my test FISH I have a 12t boat and a 52t boat, they're both useful for YACD
16:27:55  <andythenorth> there's also a 50t hovercraft that I need to paint :P
16:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: without multistop-docks there is no reason to use 800 passenger ferries over 200 passenger hydrofoils for really large capacity
16:29:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I found that in my YACD game
16:29:39  <weirdy> What do you mean by multi-stop, exactly?
16:29:45  <andythenorth> if you're not using full load, why not just run the biggest possible ship?
16:29:48  <andythenorth> hmm
16:29:53  <andythenorth> even with multi-stop, same applies
16:30:29  <peter1138> andythenorth, it doesn't, per se
16:30:47  <andythenorth> :o
16:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> weirdy: have only one ship being able to load at a dock, so you need multiple docks at the same station
16:31:12  <weirdy> :o That would be awesome
16:31:27  <peter1138> multistop is the term used for multiple road stops
16:31:31  * andythenorth would happily test multistop patches
16:31:48  <andythenorth> the alternative is tediously moving highlight and shadow pixels from one side of a boat to the other
16:31:52  <andythenorth> due to lighting mistakes :P
16:31:59  <andythenorth> for another 8 or so boats
16:32:21  <peter1138>
16:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> wikipedia is noethersch?
16:34:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and confluent?
16:35:31  <peter1138> it's true
16:35:57  <andythenorth> seems a bit tautological
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16:39:47  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... doesn't work here...
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16:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i've gone through grammar, maths, physics, biology, logics... but not philosophy
16:40:20  <andythenorth> you just haven't clicked enough :P
16:40:25  <andythenorth> it will be in the last place you look
16:40:45  <peter1138> what did you start with?
16:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, indeed, got there :)
16:42:13  <frosch123> someone has a savegame for me, with the map being filled with newgrf-provided stations? :)
16:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i started at which was one random wikipedia page from my internet history
16:42:46  <peter1138> ah, german wiki
16:42:47  <frosch123> i.e. i need a testgame for profiling drawing speed of newgrf stations
16:43:22  <andythenorth> while (not philosophy): keep clicking;
16:43:26  <andythenorth> :P
16:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but it took like 30 steps
16:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> which is like more than if you'd say "i am related to <historic figure> through X steps"
16:45:14  <andythenorth> 6 degrees?
16:45:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the 6 degrees rule only applies to people alive at the same time :p
16:45:53  <andythenorth> it's not 6 anyway
16:46:05  <andythenorth> 6 was just the shortest path in the the experiment
16:46:13  <andythenorth> many nodes failed to find onward links
16:46:19  <planetmaker> frosch123: what should the test comprise of?
16:46:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yep, either "6" or "not at all"
16:46:39  <planetmaker> I think we have a few PublicServer games which could do the trick under some assumptions
16:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but for historic figures you have to account for the number of generations inbetween
16:47:04  <planetmaker> just custom stations? But... filled with... rather not ;-)
16:47:29  <andythenorth> this is not a bad book:
16:47:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: i want to measure the time to make a giant screenshot with a savegame that would actually allow measuring whether drawing speed of stations would change
16:48:01  <andythenorth> this is better (but much thicker):
16:48:17  <frosch123> i'll try with psg200
16:48:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the trick is an exponential growth of number of relatives, which at some point exceeds the total world population
16:48:31  <andythenorth> hmm
16:48:46  <andythenorth> this is a really good book:
16:48:53  <andythenorth> there are german versions ;)
16:49:14  <planetmaker> frosch123: 132
16:49:41  <planetmaker> or 125
16:49:55  * andythenorth goes back to pixels
16:50:09  <andythenorth> or as they call them in cornwall, piskels
16:50:32  <Chris_Booth_> quick question, to do with magicbulldozer; if I enable it and build towns and the towns grow towards each other, will the towns delete each other?
16:51:36  <planetmaker> or 99 :-) 94 or 90
16:52:15  <frosch123> you are using a lot of default stations though :p
16:55:55  <peter1138> Chris_Booth_, yes
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16:56:07  <peter1138> probably
16:56:43  <Chris_Booth_> lets hope they don't or I may have to get it turned off in the current PSG
16:59:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth_: don't ever enable magic bulldozer while the game is unpaused
17:00:03  <Chris_Booth_> Eddi|zuHause I know don't worry
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17:00:38  <planetmaker> frosch123: also in the mentioned games?
17:00:55  <frosch123> yes, but i am just trying them all :)
17:04:09  <planetmaker> 132 only uses very few
17:06:34  <frosch123> hmm, maybe it is better to just fill a new map with some stations...
17:07:14  <planetmaker> few?
17:07:18  <frosch123> he, alt+1 does not work in non-debug builds
17:07:24  <frosch123> planetmaker: the ratio matters :)
17:07:51  <planetmaker> hm, ok. not newgrf stations / total stations but newgrf stations / map area, eh?
17:08:17  <frosch123> yeah :)
17:09:06  <planetmaker> well... stations are usually not what makes up most of a network ;-)
17:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid i have no game with a "majority" of tiles being station ;)
17:09:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: non track tiles would suffice :p
17:10:06  <planetmaker> :-D
17:10:19  *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
17:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and half of my games would not be trunk-loadable
17:10:41  <Rubidium> rondje! ;)
17:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, let admiralai build some stuff ;)
17:11:31  <Rubidium> rondje is better, as it built as much stations as it could in the competition
17:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause> also newgrf stations?
17:12:01  <Rubidium> not quite
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17:14:55  <frosch123> hmm... will smatz hate me for slowing down station drawing by 4% ?
17:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> he'll be joyful for having something to optimise :p
17:15:37  <Rubidium> frosch123: not if the rest of the game became 50% faster ;)
17:15:50  <frosch123> (actually 4% on the whole map, so actually a lot more)
17:18:13  <Zuu> You could write an AI that fill the entire map with eg. NewGRF coal stations wherever it is possible.
17:18:43  <Zuu> (given that you use cheats to give it money)
17:20:28  <peter1138> frosch123, smatz doesn't use newgrf (iirc) so he won't care ;)
17:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: not cheats, basecost mod
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17:25:34  <planetmaker> frosch123: what do you change to slow down drawing of them?
17:26:46  <frosch123> planetmaker: drawing extended sprite layouts required additional processing which i cannot skip for stations without duplicating more code than i want
17:27:42  <frosch123> but something is wrong with my profiling...
17:31:46  <planetmaker> he
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17:37:08  <gartral> hey guys is there a way too start the game with an option to autograb the opengfx.grf?
17:37:37  <planetmaker> gartral: windows has an installer which can do that
17:37:44  <gartral> planetmaker: linux?
17:37:58  <planetmaker> many linux have a package manager which, when sensibly configured and used by their maintainers will do that, too
17:38:20  <planetmaker> or at least tell you to also select the opengfx package
17:38:47  <frosch123> what distribution has no opengfx package?
17:38:52  <gartral> planetmaker: well i'm not on a common distro, i'm playing around with building one up from the bootstraps.. all from source..
17:39:03  <gartral> frosch123: a home-brew linux
17:39:13  <Thorn_> LFS ?
17:39:18  <planetmaker> gartral: well. so... :-) Then you're used to installing everything from scratch
17:39:23  <frosch123> well, then you also need to build opengfx from source, don't you? :)
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17:39:47  <planetmaker> hg clone && cd opengfx && make install
17:39:49  <gartral> planetmaker: i was hoping not too. for this one step. but.. oh well
17:40:25  <gartral> frosch123: yep, just kinda hoping openttd had it easy..
17:40:31  <planetmaker> but you might just download it and unzip it into ~/.openttd/data
17:40:34  <frosch123> well, either download it, or build it
17:41:41  <frosch123> or /usr/share/games/openttd/data
17:41:48  <planetmaker> or there
17:41:55  <gartral> frosch123: just as an idea.. you should add that functionality into the game engine, i know it can grab updates once the base opengfx.grf is collected
17:42:28  <planetmaker> gartral: just an idea: it cannot display a single character without that base set. Thus it cannot communicate with you and ask for permission and whereabouts and so on
17:42:36  <frosch123> it makes no sense to put it into the game
17:42:46  <frosch123> it needs installing in  /usr/share/games/openttd/data
17:42:54  <frosch123> which is the job of a package manager
17:43:59  <gartral> planetmaker: no need too be rude
17:44:18  <planetmaker> ah, sorry. didn't mean to.
17:44:46  <planetmaker> my humor sometimes doesn't carry it seems
17:44:59  <Thorn_> Well, I found it humourous atleast :)
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22483 /trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt:
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Parody
17:45:25  <gartral> hmm.. i can't seen too build nforenum..
17:45:36  <planetmaker> gartral: grfcodec
17:45:55  <planetmaker> that package contains nforenum (meanwhile)
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17:46:12  <gartral> planetmaker: is that a make target?
17:46:24  <Rubidium> boost!
17:46:42  <planetmaker> gartral: grfcodec is a separate one. And that needs indeed boost. And libpng is better used, too
17:46:44  <gartral> Rubidium: have boost
17:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> never really understood what grfcodec/nforenum need boost for...
17:47:10  <gartral> mercury link please?
17:47:11  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: ask Dalestan ;-9
17:47:19  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: some date related stuff IIRC
17:47:43  <planetmaker> ?
17:48:10  <Rubidium> oh, and lambda stuff
17:48:33  <planetmaker> gartral: I consider it quite ambitious to compile also the base set yourself, if you just want to play the game :-)
17:48:57  <planetmaker> is much quicker for sure ;-)
17:50:11  <gartral> planetmaker: maybe, but i'm having fun with compilation
17:50:28  <planetmaker> I figured :-)
17:51:26  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: also some weird multimaps or so
17:52:22  <gartral> well.. I got my base environment up with kernel, busybox, and drivers from a chroot... transfered that too the /boot of my target machine, and now i have everything too support a full gnome3 session up and running
17:52:43  <gartral> i started... 4am last night.. lol
17:52:51  <planetmaker> :-)
17:53:03  <Eddi|zuHause> other topic, while screwing around with daylength i found some structs in src/saveload/misc_sl.cpp that i think should be ported to the .ini structure
17:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause> static const SaveLoadGlobVarList _date_desc[] and static const SaveLoadGlobVarList _date_check_desc[]
17:53:33  <gartral> and 4 press pots of coffee later, lol
17:54:01  <Eddi|zuHause> static const SaveLoadGlobVarList _view_desc[] as well
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17:54:45  <gartral> when i'm done (in a month~!) i'll have an Atom-optimized distro..
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17:57:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: what would you make consider those "settings" ?
17:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure
17:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the criteria that introduced the .ini at all
17:58:19  <gartral> head hurt
17:58:19  <frosch123> stuff accessible from the console?
17:58:23  <gartral> oops
17:58:43  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i meant the settings.ini, not openttd.cfg
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17:58:47  <frosch123> i.e. settings, not gamestate :)
17:58:50  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: too long lines in the src/table.h file
17:59:19  <gartral> hmm.. make clean in ./opengrf is taking a long while
17:59:31  <frosch123> hmm, isn't "stuff in settings.ini" equivalent to "stuff in openttd.cfg"? except maybe for newgrf presets
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18:00:45  <planetmaker> gartral: opengrf = opengfx ?
18:01:04  <gartral> planetmaker: yes.. my bad
18:01:41  <gartral> got it
18:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe i don't fully understand the semantical difference between the stuff from settings.ini and misc_sl.cpp, but from a structural point of view, they sound much the same...
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18:02:06  <planetmaker> because there's both: opengfx (which consists of 6 grf files) and openttd.grf (which is part of openttd itself)
18:02:17  <planetmaker> and has also its own folder
18:02:21  <gartral> i hit ^C and then tried make again and it worked
18:02:31  <planetmaker> hm
18:02:59  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: except that gamestates have no min/max, descriptions or anything. but yes, they both specify values in saves :p
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18:09:12  * andythenorth wonders still how people are bad at maths
18:09:39  <andythenorth> wrt FIRS supplies and these odd feeder stations
18:09:49  <supermop> ltoo busy being good at math instead
18:10:04  * andythenorth is not good at math or maths
18:10:08  <andythenorth> lets test it
18:10:37  <andythenorth> you have (for ease of calculation) 1,000t of supplies available on your map per month
18:10:44  <andythenorth> and 20 industries that need supplies
18:11:17  <andythenorth> month 1: deliver 250t to 4 industries
18:11:17  <supermop> ok
18:11:29  <andythenorth> industries have a 1 in 4 (approx) chance of production increase
18:11:40  <andythenorth> so in month 1, what is your chance of a production increase at any industry?
18:12:16  <supermop> each indudtry has a 1 in for chance each month?
18:12:22  <supermop> 1 in four
18:12:27  <andythenorth> for this calculation, yes
18:12:30  <andythenorth> if it receives supplies
18:12:39  <andythenorth> 0 chance otherwise
18:13:02  <supermop> statistically it would seem that at least one of the 4 served should increase
18:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the magic "tile+=9" in RunTileLoop()?
18:13:11  * andythenorth can't do probability calculations for disconnected chances :P
18:13:29  <andythenorth> so now deliver 50t each to 20 industries
18:13:33  <andythenorth> what's the chance of an increase
18:13:53  <supermop> statistically 5 industries should increase
18:14:02  <andythenorth> so which is the better strategy?
18:14:21  <supermop> well what is the cost of build out to serve 20 instead of 4?
18:14:39  <andythenorth> are you ultimately going to connect all 20?
18:15:07  <andythenorth> if so you should do it as soon as possible
18:15:16  <andythenorth> (if you have the money)
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18:15:37  <supermop> yes, thats the thing, what is the opprotunity cost vs capital cost to build
18:15:53  <andythenorth> if you don't have the money, this is a moot point :)
18:15:54  <andythenorth> if you deliver to 20, but 50% of deliveries are late, what's the chance of an increase?
18:16:11  <supermop> late meaning fall in month 2 instead?
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18:16:15  <andythenorth> yup
18:16:40  <supermop> 2 and a half industries should increase
18:16:43  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is a number that produces all integers (mod 16)
18:16:55  <frosch123> though i do not remember the proper algebraic term
18:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: ah, makes sense
18:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "prime restklasse"
18:17:08  <andythenorth> now model it with only 100t supplies in a month (early game)
18:17:08  <supermop> still net better that 250 tons on time to 4, if the infrastructure isnt too hard to build
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18:17:55  <supermop> easy, just say 25 tons instead of 250, 5 instead of 50,
18:18:22  <supermop> assuming 1 ton is as good as 250, as per firs
18:18:30  <andythenorth> people fixate on the monthly delivery at one industry, not the net effect
18:18:45  <andythenorth> although if you can't afford to ship cargo at all industries, there's no point delivering to them
18:18:52  <andythenorth> or is there?
18:18:56  <supermop> fun
18:19:04  <supermop> i do
18:19:14  <andythenorth> you get paid
18:19:22  <supermop> i mean, you can still make money on the supplies themselves
18:19:35  <andythenorth> and if you have a surplus of supplies, you should deliver them to other industries, not over-supply the ones you have pickup from
18:19:47  <supermop> true
18:19:47  * andythenorth wonders if the in-game texts influence behaviour
18:20:07  <supermop> but over supply has some benefits:
18:20:17  <andythenorth> these feeder stations are fine if they're a choice for some people, but they now seem to be default strategy for FIRS
18:20:27  <andythenorth> I guess piglets are not new
18:21:32  <supermop> if you have 4 trucks delivering supplies to an industry, at one per week, as opposed to just one, you dont have to worry about the truck breaking down and missing its delivery for that month
18:21:38  <supermop> piglets?
18:22:10  <andythenorth>
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18:22:55  <devilsadvocate> i never supply supplies to industries i dont use
18:22:57  <supermop> if you imagine them as little forklifts, or those tsukiji fish market trucks
18:23:06  <supermop> i think they are neat
18:23:14  <devilsadvocate> its too much work, and with first keeping the industries i use supplied is hard enough work
18:24:16  <supermop> ive made little coal train piglets then for a while
18:27:19  <supermop> i like watching little things moving around in yards and at industries
18:27:35  <andythenorth> I'll add a forklift or something to HEQS
18:27:42  <andythenorth> I'd do it now but I'm tired :P
18:27:53  <andythenorth> I don't have all the angles
18:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... experimenting with the game loop is evil. i probably shouldn't do that...
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18:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: btw, i think your grf is missing the postfix "-stein" for town names
18:47:41  <planetmaker> that's a good idea indeed
18:48:12  <planetmaker> could also be used as first part
18:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> just avoid Steinstein ;)
18:52:28  <planetmaker> yup :-)
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18:58:25  <planetmaker> Hm... Now the town "SteinbrÃŒck" will be possible :-P
18:59:17  <andythenorth> hmm
18:59:22  * andythenorth once went to Spandau
18:59:26  <andythenorth> because of the ballet
18:59:59  <planetmaker> he. That town name is not possible currently. I think
19:00:18  <planetmaker> as it's part of Berlin
19:01:21  <andythenorth> "those who are tired of Spandau are tired of life"
19:03:47  <Eddi|zuHause> when was "greater berlin" formed? 1920s? earlier?
19:03:59  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: further suggestions for town name parts (or how such could be combined) are always welcome
19:04:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: IIRC in the 1930s
19:04:39  <planetmaker> but wiki says 1911
19:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "Das Gesetz ÃŒber die Bildung einer neuen Stadtgemeinde Berlin wird in der Kurzform Groß-Berlin-Gesetz genannt. Es wurde am 27. April 1920 vom Preußischen Landtag beschlossen und trat am 1. Oktober 1920 in Kraft."
19:05:31  <planetmaker> hm... somwhere in the preview I saw 1911 ;-)
19:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it was some kind of process ;)
19:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> so, if you were to make a list of cities as of 1919, "Spandau" would be included ;)
19:12:16  <planetmaker> :-)
19:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> etymoligical tidbit: towns ending in "-au" or "-aue" are usually near rivers (also compare french word "eau")
19:12:44  <planetmaker> I'm still waiting for people to provide me with the list of towns from hast-du-nicht-gesehen
19:13:24  * andythenorth decides no sailing ships in FISH
19:13:26  <planetmaker> Well... You just need to know the word "Au(e)" and that's it
19:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause> statistics from not-right-now are usually either incomplete or very expensive
19:14:05  <planetmaker> statistics? That town lists needs neither be comprehensive nor correct to the exact size...
19:15:33  <planetmaker> my current probability scaling is size**0.7/3160+1
19:15:39  <planetmaker> so... accuracy is not that important
19:22:06  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Or plural. One Glyder, many Glyderau.
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19:38:57  * andythenorth wonders what to do
19:39:03  <andythenorth> repaint more boats
19:39:09  <andythenorth> try and create a buildout for nml
19:39:15  <andythenorth> learn how to use nml
19:39:20  <andythenorth> play a new yacd game
19:39:21  <andythenorth> ?
19:39:42  <planetmaker> draw snowy industry sprites?
19:40:08  <andythenorth> FIRS?
19:40:38  <planetmaker> well, yes?
19:40:56  <andythenorth> FIRS is on ice :)
19:41:04  <planetmaker> :-)
19:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but you haven't redrawn the default industries yet
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19:55:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I may never do that
19:56:06  <andythenorth> except for the iron ore mine
19:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you must!
19:56:11  <andythenorth> why?
19:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> they do not fit at all
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19:57:27  <andythenorth> none of them
19:57:28  <andythenorth> ?
19:57:31  * andythenorth thinks
19:57:36  <andythenorth> even the coal mine?
19:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the worst are the iron ore mine, the saw mill, the steel mill and the bauxit mine
19:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and the oil refinery
20:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> "doctor pecuniae causa" :p
20:00:59  <andythenorth> so most of them then :P
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20:02:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: translation?  (google doesn't know)
20:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "pecunia" is "money"
20:06:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: means you payed for the doctor title, instead of working for it (normal), or getting honoured ("honoris causa")
20:07:03  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:07:04  <andythenorth> oh like an oxbridge masters degree
20:07:17  *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
20:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't know if that swapped over to you guys, but in germany, several high ranking politicians got their doctor degrees removed because they were caught plagiarizing other people's work
20:11:03  <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:17  <andythenorth> is there any method to buy menu positioning in default?
20:11:21  <andythenorth> it's all over the place :P
20:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> for vehicles?
20:12:24  <andythenorth> yup
20:12:27  <andythenorth> specifically planes
20:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> for trains it's property 1A
20:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> for planes 1B
20:13:22  <andythenorth> I mean is there a principle or rule behind it :)
20:13:46  <andythenorth> I have aligned my sets all left, but that's wrong
20:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ah... you meant sprite positioning
20:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue about that
20:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> centered is probably better
20:15:15  <andythenorth> yup
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20:41:33  <ChoHag_> Is there a GRF with trucks that will work well with FIRS (and/or allow the default truck to be refit).
20:42:33  <ChoHag_> Never mind. I have it but didn't enable it.
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21:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ah... i see how futile it is to try to actually balance a daylength patch
21:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> every tiny factor you add somewhere will cause an overflow somewhere else
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21:59:18  <supermop> my approach would be not to bother with balancing
21:59:59  <ChoHag_> Is the length of a day a problem?
22:00:07  <ChoHag_> Besides lacking sufficient hours.
22:05:22  <supermop> but without day-scale traffice patterns, numerated days in the game are fairly meaningless
22:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag_: main point about daylength is slower technological development
22:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have enough time to connect a major network on larger maps, while you still have beautiful steam engines
22:09:35  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:10:01  <ChoHag_> Yes that can have its downsides.
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22:11:30  <Eddi|zuHause> next thing is that yearly running costs are either illogically high or incomes and cost must be divided, which lacks precision for short routes
22:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> next thing that some want and others don't is that monthly produuction must be adjusted. ecs has an elaborate scheme to calculate monthly demand that totally fails if there are more than 8 or 9 production cycles.
22:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but spreading out the production callbacks might not be everybody's style either
22:14:16  <frosch123> how about using a different date for everything vehicle related?
22:14:51  <frosch123> don't touch industries or whatever
22:15:13  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that doesn't help because all problematic codepaths are not part of OnNewDay/Month/Year
22:15:27  <frosch123> just make steamers stay modern till 2250 :)
22:15:58  <frosch123> is there more involved than introduction and expiration dates?
22:16:10  <frosch123> and maybe a grf-readable date?
22:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that was Wolf01's approach, but i'm not convinced that it makes things actually easier
22:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it just shifts the problems to totally different places
22:17:05  <frosch123> i thought all daylength patches tried to change everything
22:17:12  <frosch123> instead of faking the year
22:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01's last patch tried to make a fake date
22:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and pavel's daylength patch skips ticks
22:17:48  <frosch123> ok, seems like i am not up-to-date at all :)
22:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there's one part of me that thinks i should limit daylength factors to powers of two (makes using tick_counter%daylength possible)
22:22:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22484 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix: The caption of centered windows could be moved out of the main window and thus become inaccessible when resizing the main window.
22:23:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22485 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix: EnsureVisibleCaption() did not update viewport positions of windows with viewports but without caption. (only triggerable since r22484)
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22:30:16  <frosch123> night
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