Log for #openttd on 2nd June 2011:
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00:00:15  <V453000> no, your point is fine in order to get the maximum area
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01:23:05  <lucas92> hi
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05:16:29  <planetmaker> moin
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05:51:34  <Terkhen> good morning
05:54:45  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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08:10:03  <planetmaker> hm... Japanese set needs an update. It doesn't support parameter GUI at all :-(
08:10:22  <planetmaker> And I'd like the option to have Shinkansens run on tracks compatible with the normal trains, too
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08:12:33  <Terkhen> what license does it use?
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08:17:00  <peter1138> rail types!
08:17:33  <peter1138> or does it still replace the maglev graphics or something shitty
08:19:11  <Terkhen> probably it does
08:21:08  <Terkhen> I want something that adds a "metro" track type, but when I enable that option in the Metro Track Set no new rail types appear
08:21:23  <Terkhen> does it only appear if the new rail type has trains?
08:21:25  <peter1138> well you need trains that use the metro track too
08:21:54  <peter1138> besides, the metro track set is bloody ugly
08:22:17  <Terkhen> then I guess that 2cc does not use that rail type
08:22:29  <Terkhen> I just need something that looks different from monorail without breaking it :P
08:22:40  <Terkhen> looking nice would be a good plus
08:23:49  <peter1138> uk railway track set is nice looking
08:23:54  <peter1138> dunno if it uses the same labels
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08:25:20  <planetmaker> Terkhen: it's all gpl v2 afaik
08:26:01  <planetmaker> peter1138: yes, it still doesn't handle railtypes
08:27:29  <planetmaker> Terkhen: I thought about using Japanese stuff for the next yacd... but this train and track configuration doesn't give me any joy :-(
08:27:50  <Terkhen> I would propose the spain set if it didn't have even worse problems :P
08:28:04  <planetmaker> :-D
08:28:40  <planetmaker> well, I don't mind a missing a14 support. That'd be nice, though. Honestly, I have to admit, I did not play with the spanish train set for... ages.
08:29:38  <Terkhen> that 2cc subways grf has all the metros I like... but it seems to lack any support for railtypes too (with nutracks and 2cc subways there are no rail types or trains available)
08:29:56  <planetmaker> <-- I had this with alpine climate
08:30:03  <Terkhen> no, the spain set has some serious bugs: whitespace on some trains, using real cargos for refit magic and so on
08:30:13  <planetmaker> I'm reluctant to add the 2ccTS. That's too many trains...
08:30:22  <Terkhen> yes, me too
08:30:27  <planetmaker> Though... we could And then NuTracks. But that's again too many track types
08:30:33  <Terkhen> we could use 2cc subways but they will run on monorail
08:30:39  <planetmaker> hm...
08:30:57  <planetmaker> use the metrotracks newgrf properly configured? Doesn't that work?
08:31:06  <planetmaker> via parameter to replace monorail?
08:31:37  <Terkhen> that works, but then monorail trains run on metro tracks :P
08:31:47  <planetmaker> yes.
08:31:55  <Terkhen> we are probably not going to use monorail anyways
08:32:00  <planetmaker> well. Then we have no monorail. But so what. Do we use those?
08:32:17  <Terkhen> ok, we can use that then :)
08:33:01  <planetmaker> I hardly use monorail, I have to admit.
08:33:15  <planetmaker> And if, it'd make sense to me only in very limited cases
08:33:50  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I would add 2cc subways and metro track set then (even if ugly at least they mark that we are using metro trains)
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08:34:05  <planetmaker> :-D
08:34:07  <planetmaker> ok
08:34:27  <peter1138> i thought metro tracks used railtypes now?
08:34:36  <peter1138> at least, i did most of the work converting it myself...
08:34:42  <peter1138> it was my test grf
08:34:55  <Terkhen> the 2cc subways does not seem to be compatible with rail types
08:35:00  <Terkhen> and 2cc has too many trains
08:35:14  <Terkhen> urgh, when are they going to implement those parameters
08:35:25  <planetmaker> yes :S
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08:35:54  <planetmaker> unfortunately I lost most of my interest on working on the 2ccTS when DJN once removed everything from the repo in a fit
08:35:58  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I also have generic tram set, but metros can fulfill the local transport of passengers better so it is probably not needed
08:36:01  <Terkhen> what??? :O
08:36:08  <planetmaker> long ago meanwhile. but yes
08:36:49  <Terkhen> :(
08:37:25  <planetmaker> we rolled back that commit on the server and he continued. But my motivation to help was blown away
08:38:14  <Terkhen> I can understand why, yes
08:38:15  <planetmaker> the reason was something not working as it *should* due to both nfo error and makefile giving a not helpful error message about it
08:38:49  <peter1138> ugh
08:39:01  <peter1138> i even modified 2cc train set to use the rail type test grf...
08:39:06  <peter1138> it's a one-liner...
08:39:23  <peter1138> (granted i didn't care about ttdpatch compatibility)
08:39:33  <Terkhen> peter1138: the 2cc subways grf only contains the metro trains, someone coded that
08:39:34  <planetmaker> 2ccTS isn't TTDP compatible anyway
08:39:43  <Terkhen> it was probably done before you did those changes to the 2cc train set
08:39:58  <peter1138> there wasn't a subways grf when i did it
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08:40:17  <Terkhen> oh, then the person that created it did a messy code or I'm not testing it properly
08:40:18  <peter1138> we're talking 2 years ago...
08:40:23  <planetmaker> Terkhen: so... which trainset? the subway grf and...?
08:40:39  <peter1138> railtypes goes back a long time ;P
08:40:48  <planetmaker> :-) they do
08:41:02  <Terkhen> metro track set with parameter "add third rail"
08:41:20  <planetmaker> oh, that's needed? Not replace monorail?
08:41:35  <Terkhen> but I want a new track type, not replacing monorail :P
08:41:51  <planetmaker> :-D ok
08:42:22  <planetmaker> but... then the 2ccSubways don't work
08:42:39  <peter1138> how come?
08:42:48  <Terkhen> hmm... with "Add third rail" it seems to do nothing, no matter what train set I select
08:43:17  <Terkhen> s/it/the metro track set/
08:43:25  <planetmaker> because no trainset defined 3rdr as its primary track type
08:43:51  <planetmaker> also... there are no monorail vehicles
08:44:00  <planetmaker> so all should be fine
08:44:25  <Terkhen> ok
08:45:12  <Terkhen> I was also testing the universal rail type, but the method for replacing trains with it is too complicated to bother
08:45:46  <planetmaker> <-- my current selection
08:46:33  <Terkhen> what is smits?
08:46:43  <planetmaker> lots of parameters set for all kinds of newgrfs ;-) Shanghai Maglev tracks
08:47:34  <planetmaker> it needs those parameters. It really does ;-)
08:47:44  <planetmaker> Default is too ugly :-P
08:48:23  <Terkhen> it looks nice :) (with those parameters, I did not test without)
08:48:55  <Terkhen> the icons are a bit confusing, though
08:50:05  <peter1138> oh
08:50:24  <Terkhen> I like that newgrf selection; I have never played with the japanese grfs
08:50:29  <peter1138> 2cc trainset should be compatible with uk railway track set, at least 3rd rail
08:51:06  <peter1138> but i think it's geared up for nutracks
08:51:16  <peter1138> as it uses E160 E230, etc...
08:52:45  <planetmaker> trains might not use that
08:52:57  <Terkhen> 2cc subways with NuTracks set to "default and metro track": no trains available at all
08:53:24  <Terkhen> 2cc with NuTracks set to "default and metro track": there are no metro trains in the list of available trains, and the list itself is suspiciously short
08:53:41  <Terkhen> (2cc 2.0.0-beta-4.1)
08:55:30  <peter1138> 2cc expects all nutracks' tracks to be available
08:55:34  <peter1138> it doesn't test
08:55:55  <peter1138> if a railtype isn't available, the engines for that type disappear
08:56:08  <Terkhen> if I use nutracks with default parameters the metro trains are not present either
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08:57:31  <Terkhen> opengfx+ rail types? :P
09:00:42  <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes. I even have the sprites already...
09:00:48  <Terkhen> oh, nice :)
09:00:50  <peter1138> nutracks with 3rd rails
09:00:52  <planetmaker> was a by-product of opengfx+ landscape ;-)
09:01:03  <planetmaker> just the xcf needs proper exporting and then coding
09:01:17  <peter1138> is what you need
09:01:31  <planetmaker> it has that option, does it?
09:01:42  <peter1138> yes
09:02:15  <Terkhen> peter1138: thanks! that works :)
09:02:31  <Terkhen> but it also includes all of those crazy speed limited rail types :/
09:02:36  <peter1138> yes
09:02:40  <peter1138> that's nutracks for you
09:02:46  <peter1138> and 2cc trains requires is
09:02:48  <peter1138> *it
09:03:31  <Terkhen> :(
09:03:55  <Terkhen> planetmaker: and does it have sprites for metro? :P
09:04:54  <peter1138> pikka's track looks better anyway
09:05:09  <peter1138> 2cc trains should probably test what rail type labels are available
09:05:16  <peter1138> and either warn or work around missing ones
09:06:04  <peter1138> oh. hmm.
09:06:14  <peter1138> i need to read the code a bit more
09:06:32  <peter1138> cos without nutracks you get the metro trains on 3rd rail. pom te pom
09:07:32  <peter1138> right
09:07:36  <planetmaker> Terkhen: of course not. Only rail, monorail, maglev. And no snowy tracks either
09:07:38  * peter1138 gives up caring and goes to do some work :p
09:07:54  <planetmaker> road types? :-P
09:08:08  <Terkhen> I'm going to give up too, yellow track thing for us then
09:08:57  <planetmaker> hm, right. I'm going to have to tend to a few other things now, mainly a dirty flat. Feel free to select NewGRFs or prepare a map, if you like ;-)
09:09:01  <planetmaker> I won't complain then
09:09:11  <Terkhen> I should be working too :P
09:09:23  <Terkhen> I like your selection, we can play with it this weekend
09:10:26  <peter1138> hmm, nutracks high speed track still has a speed limit. odd.
09:10:27  <planetmaker> well, as said: it sucks wrt shinkansen tracks
09:10:48  <planetmaker> I'd like shinkansens to run - at least compatibly - on normal tracks
09:11:09  <peter1138> normal tracks don't have a speed limit though
09:11:46  <peter1138> did i add that "what rail type are we running on" variable for callbacks?
09:12:07  <Terkhen> I remember some talks about it but I don't know how they ended
09:12:57  <peter1138> ah, seems to be part of var 4A
09:15:01  <peter1138> ah, japanese train set just replaces monorail. right.
09:15:06  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I have a version 2.1 of the japanese train set
09:15:17  <peter1138> v2.1a
09:15:30  <peter1138> damn, i was going to do some work :p
09:15:32  <V453000> can be set to maglev, too
09:15:39  <V453000> (where it is far better)
09:15:45  <V453000> also morning :p
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09:16:16  <Terkhen> hi V453000
09:16:19  <peter1138> "better" as in breaks different laws of physics, yeah
09:16:28  <V453000> no, the monorail shinkansens are unusable
09:16:32  <V453000> zero capacity
09:16:43  <V453000> who cares about laws of physics, it is unplayable
09:16:47  <peter1138> 0?
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09:16:55  <V453000> *zero acceleration
09:17:00  <V453000> capacitz is unchanged ofc >]
09:17:15  <V453000> and I should switch keyboards :)
09:18:01  <peter1138> hmm, the specs are pretty low
09:18:02  <V453000> the trains have been moved to monorail but the stats were unchanged, which of course makes them unusable
09:18:10  <V453000> on maglev they were fine ofc
09:18:32  <manveru> i've got a problem with the music, i installed "OpenMSX" and "Scott Joplin Anthology", and select either as base music set, the songs show up in-game, but when i hit play it just cycles through them realy fast without actually playing anything
09:19:15  <manveru> version 1.1.0 on archlinux
09:19:19  <planetmaker> Terkhen: I do, too. Even 2.1
09:19:29  <Terkhen> manveru: that happened to me on archlinux when I did have sound set up properly
09:19:30  <planetmaker> But track configuration options differ ;-)
09:19:30  <peter1138> anyway, they certainly have more than 0 acceleration
09:19:37  <peter1138> because if they had 0, they wouldn't move
09:19:40  <peter1138> they reach top speed too
09:19:43  <Terkhen> sorry, I did not*
09:19:45  <Ammler> manveru: did you install timidity?
09:19:49  <peter1138> after about 20 tiles
09:19:53  <manveru> Ammler: no
09:19:55  <manveru> lemme try :)
09:20:11  <Ammler> I am sure, the readme would tell about :-)
09:20:26  <peter1138> so "accelerates slower than you'd like" is "unplayable"
09:20:28  <peter1138> right
09:20:38  <peter1138> and "unusable"
09:21:03  <Terkhen> hmm... I never use music on openttd anyways, but if openttd on archlinux requires timidity to play it, then it is a bug of the package requirements IMO
09:21:16  <Ammler> Terkhen: how else?
09:21:19  <V453000> peter1138: it is just way too slow
09:21:21  <peter1138> Terkhen, exactly, music *isn't* required
09:21:28  <peter1138> they get to top speed. how is that slow?
09:21:33  <V453000> but in how long
09:21:42  <__ln__> Terkhen: what?! no music? terrible.
09:21:55  <Terkhen> then it should be an optional dependency
09:22:06  <V453000> and when you cannot improve their acceleration with multiple engines, it just cannot be solved
09:22:08  <Ammler> Terkhen: it should be a dependency of openmsx
09:22:18  <Ammler> it is that way on suse
09:22:22  <Terkhen> why? I can play music without openmsx
09:22:31  <Terkhen> I could be using the original songs or other music set
09:22:44  <peter1138> Ammler, you want package dependencies based on stuff downloaded via bananas?
09:22:59  <Ammler> peter1138: openmsx is a distro package
09:23:22  <peter1138> can be
09:23:26  <manveru> openmsx is in AUR
09:23:27  <Ammler> yep :-)
09:23:33  <planetmaker> it is. It's a recommended install
09:23:35  <peter1138> but it also can be installed via bananas
09:23:38  <Sacro> Whoo arch
09:23:38  <planetmaker> yes
09:23:51  <peter1138> in which case package dependencies on that don't solve anyway
09:23:54  <manveru> so yeah, i guess the PKGBUILD should mention it as dependency
09:23:54  <peter1138> *anything
09:23:58  <peter1138> anyway, arch sucks
09:24:03  <Ammler> I guess, the readme is clear
09:24:04  <Terkhen> manveru: does music work with timidity?
09:24:05  <Sacro> peter1138: lies
09:24:10  <Sacro> Terkhen: it used to
09:24:10  <peter1138> do they still prefer oss?
09:24:13  <Sacro> still does afaik
09:24:16  <Ammler> if you like to use music, install timidity
09:24:20  <Sacro> peter1138: arch doesn't 'prefer' anything
09:24:27  <peter1138> Sacro, yes yes
09:25:02  <peter1138> Sacro, most of the people i've seen trying to use OSS have come from that one page on some archlinux wiki that "explains" how oss is better
09:25:10  <peter1138> they're always archlinux users
09:25:16  <manveru> Terkhen: it stopped cycling, can't hear a thing yet, timidity shows up in the mixer as playback stream though
09:25:20  <peter1138> everybody else accepts that oss sucks
09:25:44  <Sacro> I only used OSS before ALSA supported the XFi
09:25:52  <Sacro> Now I use ALSA + pulseaudio
09:26:01  <Sacro> and I never had issues with OpenTTD and OSS
09:26:02  <manveru> peter1138: i can't stand OSS, fwiw
09:26:08  <Terkhen> although I like arch I agree with peter1138 on this one, I was "tricked" to use OSS by the wiki, after ALSA did not detect my sound card
09:26:26  <manveru> but i use pulseaudio, which equally many people hate :)
09:26:27  <Terkhen> after the gnome3 update (that requires pulse audio) all of my sound configuration is completely messed up
09:26:50  <Ammler> (or not :-)
09:27:02  <V453000> A 6t ile long N700 shinkansen accelerates to top speed in 47 tiles and cannot be improved by multiple engines added... Sorry but that is unusable
09:27:17  <peter1138>
09:27:18  <peter1138> that page
09:27:21  <peter1138> should have a big huge warning on it
09:27:33  <peter1138> to say that oss is not recommended, because it's shit
09:27:49  <peter1138> i'd edit it but it needs a login ;p
09:27:57  <peter1138> and it'd only get reverted, hehe
09:28:12  <manveru> i think you'd have to work on the wording :)
09:28:15  <Terkhen> I am planning on just reinstalling arch and use alsa this time, no matter how long it takes to make it find my sound card
09:28:40  <manveru> why do you need a reinstall for that?
09:28:56  <Ammler> Terkhen: of you could use  a proper distro for common usage and put arch on vm
09:29:12  <Terkhen> because I'm lazy and I already have all the steps I did to install it in a txt file and I only have to follow them
09:29:16  <Terkhen> Ammler: why isn't arch a proper distro?
09:29:31  <Ammler> seems not :-)
09:29:43  <Terkhen> why?
09:29:53  <Ammler> it can't  play music
09:30:11  <manveru> seems like timidity needs instruments
09:30:25  <peter1138> yeah it does
09:30:33  <peter1138> that *should* be a dependency of timidity though
09:30:43  <peter1138> (there's only 1 set available)
09:30:54  <peter1138> ish
09:30:54  <manveru> i dunno
09:31:03  <Ammler> manveru: pats!
09:31:06  <manveru> midi on linux, giving you headaches since 1995
09:31:44  <manveru> music works now
09:31:46  <Terkhen> I dislike conclusions based on a few facts, so I'm just going back to work
09:31:47  <manveru> thanks folks :)
09:31:58  <Terkhen> manveru: great, what did you need to install?
09:32:03  <Sacro> you don't have freepats?
09:32:07  <manveru> timidity-freepats
09:32:11  <Sacro> d'oh
09:32:28  <Terkhen> then both timidity and timidity-freepats should be optional dependencies of openttd :)
09:32:49  <manveru> agreed
09:32:54  <manveru> i'll file a bug for that
09:33:01  <Terkhen> ok :)
09:33:34  <Ammler> and requires of openmsx
09:33:49  <Sacro> it can't require openmsx
09:33:54  <Sacro> openmsx is in AUR
09:34:01  <Sacro> you'll need it in community
09:34:06  <Ammler> aur means?
09:34:11  <Sacro> User Repo
09:34:18  <Sacro> essentially just build scripts
09:34:23  <Ammler> and then it can't require timidty?
09:34:35  <Sacro> kinda like a repo of SPEC files or whatever
09:34:57  <Sacro> but it doesn't requare that to build
09:35:04  <Ammler> oh, openttd should not require openmsx
09:35:16  <Sacro> iirc I wrote the PKGBUILD for openttd
09:35:16  <Ammler> but openmsx should require timidity
09:35:36  <Rubidium> there are other tools to play midi
09:35:41  <Sacro> wtf, grfcodec is in AUR
09:35:53  <Rubidium> iirc aplaymidi works with OpenTTD as well
09:36:05  <Rubidium> so why force timidity?
09:36:24  <Sacro> Exactly
09:36:33  <Ammler> Rubidium: that is how it works :-)
09:36:48  <Terkhen> hmm... in other packages with similar issues arch lists some options as optional dependencies IIRC
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09:37:47  <Rubidium> also, timidity without freepats works if the sound card supports it, so there is no direct dependency on freepats
09:37:48  <Ammler> if you install a package, it should work and not need any hidden dependencies
09:38:07  <Rubidium> rather timidity should depend on freepats if the hardware doesn't support playing the midi directly
09:38:13  <peter1138> erm
09:38:22  <peter1138> if the hardware supports midi directly, timidity is irrelevant
09:38:35  <peter1138> but yes
09:38:42  <peter1138> music does not require timidity
09:39:06  <Rubidium> so OpenTTD should recommend openmsx and openmsx should depend on *some* tool to play midi, not a specific tool, just generic
09:39:25  <Sacro> Yep
09:39:42  <Ammler> oh well, if the packager does disagree, he can tag it as recommends or suggests
09:40:08  <Rubidium> like in Debian there's a metapackage httpd, there ought to be some meta package for playing midi
09:40:18  <Ammler> then at least user see, what "could" be missing
09:41:09  <Rubidium> Ammler: why would the packager disagree; openmsx requires some way to play back midi. Which exactly isn't that important
09:41:37  <manveru>
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09:42:39  <Ammler> Rubidium: disagree with "a package should work without hidden dependencies"
09:43:07  <Rubidium> Ammler: why is it a hidden dependency?
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09:43:19  <Ammler> installing openmsx without music player is useless
09:43:37  <peter1138> depending on a specific player that isn't necessary is also useless
09:43:49  <Ammler> peter1138: how does that hurt?
09:44:02  <Ammler> e.g. if it is a recommends?
09:44:11  <Rubidium> Ammler: thus, if you install openmsx... openmsx makes sure that *some* midi playback is installed
09:44:18  <Rubidium> it's not OpenTTD's task
09:44:26  <Ammler> Rubidium: no, of course not
09:44:31  <Ammler> I meant the packager
09:45:08  <Rubidium> sorry to be blunt, but generally OpenTTD packagers have no real clue what they're doing
09:45:13  <peter1138> one day i'll bring my sdlmixer patch out from the dark ages ;p
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09:46:55  <Rubidium> even then, suggesting or even recommending will get you into cases where the users configures to the system not to install recommends and OpenTTD is essentially useless as opengfx isn't installed
09:47:17  <Ammler> opengfx is a require of openttd
09:47:19  <manveru> well, opengfx wasn't a dependency either
09:47:20  <Rubidium> although opengfx isn't a hard dependency of openttd; you should be able to install openttd without opengfx
09:47:40  <Ammler> why?
09:47:45  <Rubidium> after all, why should you be forced to install opengfx if you have the original files?
09:47:46  <Ammler> how does that harm?
09:48:15  <Ammler> hmm, which baseset is used on first start, if you have both installed?
09:48:25  <Rubidium> "random" IIRC
09:48:36  <manveru> i don't think i have the original files... lost the CD ages ago
09:48:39  <Rubidium> or should I say undefined
09:49:01  <peter1138> whichever appears first in the filescan, maybe?
09:49:45  <Ammler> Rubidium: again, openttd should work without hassle
09:50:09  <Ammler> you are still able to run it with original set, with other music player etc...
09:50:11  <Rubidium> Ammler: it does, in Debian, *if* you don't mess with the settings
09:50:25  <Ammler> having those packages as requires/recommends doesn't harm that
09:50:45  <Rubidium> requires != recommends
09:51:53  <Ammler> well, Fedora doesn't know recommends
09:52:44  <peter1138> anything rpm based smells
09:52:46  <peter1138> so who cares
09:52:58  <Ammler> peter1138: Fedora is not anything rpm
09:53:14  <Ammler> suse rpm has recommends and suggests
09:53:36  <Rubidium> yay... not benevolent dictator, see what a mess it becomes
09:53:46  <Rubidium> ever seen the openttd.spec in OpenTTD's sources?
09:54:46  <Ammler> Rubidium: at least rpm is able to have one spec for different versions
09:55:13  <Ammler> how would debian build scripts look, if they wouldn't branch for every version?
09:55:56  <peter1138> i do believe we only have 1
09:55:56  <Rubidium> depends on the amount of change, but you can generate most of the files during the build process
09:56:30  <Rubidium> e.g. you could generate the changelog from upstream changelog
09:56:53  <Ammler> which is not always a desire
09:57:04  <Ammler> as you would miss the packager changes then
09:57:54  <Rubidium> if you can generate it from one file, I doubt you wouldn't have much problems generating it from say... more than one
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09:59:47  <Ammler> well, seems not that easy, else you would do for the debian.changelog
10:02:27  <Rubidium> technically possible doesn't imply it's socially accepted
10:04:26  <Rubidium> and I rather keep the Debian Debian spec and our Debian spec quite similar, as that makes moving changes back and forth in the packaging much easier as well
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10:07:02  <Ammler> also "my" spec might look too complicated because openttd lacks of comfortable way to build dedicated and gui version
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10:11:03  <Ammler> hmm, should look into that again, maybe that could be done easier...
10:16:37  <manveru> so, how does that online game work? anything i should know before trying it?
10:17:47  <Terkhen> manveru: many servers have etiquette rules
10:20:29  <planetmaker> they might (or might not) give you a link to the rules upon connection
10:22:37  <V453000> just be friendly and play friendly usually works well :P
10:22:48  <manveru> :)
10:22:52  <manveru> ok, trying it now
10:28:38  <planetmaker> in case of doubt ask before you start competing for the goods of a particular industry.
10:28:51  <V453000> ^
10:29:07  <V453000> "ask" and "communicate" is usually the best way :p
10:29:13  <manveru> aye
10:29:18  <manveru> i hate when AIs do that anyway
10:29:44  <V453000> some people are worse than AI unfortunately
10:31:06  <Terkhen> yes
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10:47:39  <planetmaker> quite. AIs are never evil.
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11:23:10  <Wolf01> hi
11:23:28  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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12:10:50  <Terkhen> meh,  I want to play futuristic openttd
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12:18:53  <planetmaker> :-)
12:19:02  <planetmaker> We should code such NewGRF then, Terkhen ;-)
12:19:14  <planetmaker> I'd be with you there
12:19:22  <Terkhen> :)
12:19:26  <planetmaker> we just need some pixel slaves :-P
12:19:28  <Terkhen> then we need sprites, yes
12:20:02  <planetmaker> probably the toyland2mars conversion could be some kind of start...
12:20:26  <planetmaker> what would such future set need? vehicles, planes, roads, tracks
12:20:30  <planetmaker> houses, industries
12:20:35  <Terkhen> IIRC the sprites it uses are from some version of TT that included mars
12:20:42  <planetmaker> and possibly landscape. Yes
12:20:50  <planetmaker> indeed, so it's probably not usable
12:20:59  <Terkhen> I think so, yes
12:21:04  <Terkhen> landscape would be the most important part
12:21:43  <Terkhen> which planet would we be making? :P
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12:23:08  <V453000> I am wondering how is a futuristic set going to look like :)
12:23:22  <V453000> concrete and steel everywhere? :D
12:23:30  <V453000> robotic livestock,...
12:24:03  <Terkhen> I guess that if we split landscape from the rest of the stuff we could even do various different places
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12:24:17  <Terkhen> earth is an option, I was thinking on mars :)
12:24:30  <V453000> mars is already there ;)
12:24:56  <Terkhen> there are no cola wells or toffee quarries in mars :/
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12:25:19  <V453000> hm, what is there instead? :o
12:25:22  <V453000> dont remember
12:25:24  <Terkhen> I'm no fan of realism but... toyland industries in mars is too much for me :P
12:25:31  <Terkhen> toyland industries :P
12:25:35  <Terkhen> I want stuff more appropiate
12:25:40  <V453000> :D then there must be cola wells
12:25:47  <V453000> oh you mean there shouldnt be
12:25:50  <V453000> mah, I like it :)
12:26:06  <Terkhen> it was the only way of playing toyland for a while, yes :)
12:33:49  <planetmaker> Mars would need the usual mines. Could use a helium plant with appropriate power plants which 'burn' it,..
12:33:53  <planetmaker> the usual stuff
12:34:26  <V453000> I bet there is a lot of cola on Mars, you astro-people just didnt discover it yet :P
12:34:29  <planetmaker> there might be oxygen plants - which can be delivered to towns the same way as food
12:34:41  <planetmaker> no growth without
12:34:48  <Terkhen> same for water
12:34:48  <planetmaker> dome-like buildings
12:34:51  <planetmaker> yes
12:35:12  <Terkhen> so we need to use the tropical climate :)
12:35:25  <planetmaker> or arctic
12:35:41  <Terkhen> but arctic only has one cargo affecting town growth
12:35:43  <planetmaker> rather: we need town control :-P
12:35:47  <Terkhen> yes :)
12:36:05  <planetmaker> And... I still somewhat fancy newgrf landscape
12:36:07  <Terkhen> what about ice (in the landscape)?
12:36:35  <planetmaker> giving tiles possibly some random bits - and a height var and possibly a check for adjacent tiles
12:36:42  <planetmaker> Mars can have some ice
12:37:04  <planetmaker> but I'm not sure whether a newgrf landscape would not mean too much cpu just for landscape
12:37:48  <planetmaker> and I'm not clear about all required changes ;-)
12:38:21  * Alberth remembers a document by Sir X :p
12:38:33  <planetmaker> :-P
12:39:30  <Alberth> wasn't there a brickland landscape partly done?
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12:41:05  <planetmaker> some parts might be. dunno
12:41:13  <planetmaker> but that's not very futuristic either, is it?
12:42:14  <V453000> just please dont make trains going 120983748 kmh :D
12:42:17  <V453000> futuristic, but ... :P
12:43:11  <planetmaker> @calc  120983748 / 3.6 / 10**8
12:43:11  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.336065966667
12:43:20  <planetmaker> not quite ;-)
12:43:31  <planetmaker> I doubt trains ever travel at 1/3 speed of light
12:43:38  <ChoHag> Not yet.
12:43:51  <planetmaker> never actually.
12:44:10  <planetmaker> unless you also invent intertia compensators or stuff like that
12:46:33  <peter1138> not necessary
12:46:48  <peter1138> just don't accelerate too fast
12:47:22  <peter1138> might take a while to get to ⅓c
12:48:47  <planetmaker> yes. But assuming you just want to reach another point on Earth by train, you get - even accelerating at an inconvenient 5g to a max speed of 50000m/s or ...
12:48:51  <planetmaker> @calc 50000*3.6
12:48:51  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 180000
12:48:55  <planetmaker> km/h
12:49:08  <planetmaker> and then you'd be again at your starting point
12:49:20  <planetmaker> constantly accelerating or decelerating
12:49:55  <planetmaker> it'd take you a mere 20 minutes, though
12:50:04  <planetmaker> roughtly
12:50:43  <planetmaker> hm... I wonder... there should be a mistake in my math
12:51:08  <planetmaker> hm, no
12:51:16  <planetmaker> 90 minutes is for constant 1g
12:51:29  <planetmaker> orbital time and free fall through Earth
12:51:47  <planetmaker> :-P
12:52:22  <Terkhen> sorry, I had to go for a bit :)
12:52:48  <planetmaker> you missed nothing. I just proved that trains going at 1/3 of speed of light are not realistic :-P
12:52:57  <planetmaker> or deadly to the passengers
12:52:59  <Alberth> good :p
12:53:43  <Terkhen> planetmaker: hmm... that would be ice tiles as objects?
12:54:03  <planetmaker> hm... why?
12:54:33  <Terkhen> <@planetmaker> giving tiles possibly some random bits - and a height var and possibly a check for adjacent tiles <--- what kind of tiles are you referring to then?
12:54:51  <planetmaker> feature 12: landscape ;-)
12:55:01  <planetmaker> :-P
12:55:26  <planetmaker> getting carried away a bit ;-)
12:55:41  <Terkhen> oh :)
12:55:56  <Terkhen> it would be simpler to use existing climates for that
12:56:22  <planetmaker> yes, I didn't mean to need it really for that. But it'd be nice. Also with other climates
12:56:32  <planetmaker> Like one could give tiles a certain random component
12:56:44  <planetmaker> or seasonal variation
12:56:47  <planetmaker> or... ;-)
12:57:06  <planetmaker> or smoother desert <-> grass transition
12:57:48  <Terkhen> hmm...  but if that needs storage in the map array it would get huge in size
13:00:03  <planetmaker> clear tiles and tree tiles have still MUCH free space
13:00:47  <planetmaker> it probably could do with keeping two (or including water three) different tiles per map
13:01:07  <planetmaker> it's from my phantasy just about allowing for more control of the visual representation
13:01:35  <planetmaker> so... not allowing to define a new type, but overriding tile type1 and tile type 2 - or so ;-)
13:01:50  <planetmaker> similar to signals, where you also have no action0
13:02:03  <planetmaker> or to railtypes previous to railtypes ;-)
13:03:16  <Terkhen> hmm... so you would use callbacks to define how a type is drawn?
13:07:43  <planetmaker> maybe not a callback, but varaction2
13:08:26  <Terkhen> wouldn't that make drawing a lot more expensive in time?
13:09:13  <planetmaker> the girls in the flat below me are funny. First they ask me whether I do have charcoal (I do). Now an hour later they ask whether I have some charcoal lighter... - did they plan *anything* when deciding to have a BBQ?
13:09:40  <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes, that's what I fear it would do. And which is probably the reason to not allow that
13:09:50  <Terkhen> they planned on having a neighbour that lets them use his stuff
13:09:57  <planetmaker> :-P
13:09:59  <Belugas> hello
13:10:17  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
13:10:32  <planetmaker> too bad I'll have guests drop by quite soon - or I'd now have BBQ with them :-P
13:11:43  <Belugas> sir Terkhen :)
13:12:42  <Terkhen> we could also say that we are always far enough from the poles to have any ice on the surface :)
13:15:12  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
13:15:27  <planetmaker> yes, we could say so :-)
13:15:40  <Terkhen> if we only have one terrain type we can use toyland :P
13:16:25  <Terkhen> what about trees? we could turn them into sand dunes or something else that changes over time, but then towns shouldn't care much about their fate
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13:29:04  <Belugas> sir planetmaker :)
13:29:39  <Terkhen> hmm... there is no agreement on railtype labels, right?
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13:30:44  <Terkhen> I also wonder why the metro tracks use MONO instead of checking if a specific label for them exists and if not reverting to MONO
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13:30:53  <Terkhen> s/metro tracks/2cc metros/
13:50:40  <planetmaker> Terkhen: unfortunately there is not. IMHO agreeing on certain default labels would make things much easier
13:51:13  <Terkhen> meh, I see
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13:56:17  * Terkhen finally resigns himself about the metro tracks and moves to another thing
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14:13:43  <Belugas> lucky foryou, the metro is entering the station at the moment :)
14:13:48  <peter1138> hmm
14:14:02  <peter1138> 3RDR is, at least, pretty standard.
14:14:49  <peter1138> "metro" doesn't really specify a rail type, imho
14:15:48  <Terkhen> hmm... 3RDR then
14:16:04  <Terkhen> but still, 2cc uses MONO instead
14:16:25  <Terkhen> it isn't possible to use 3RDR if it is present, otherwise use MONO?
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14:16:57  <peter1138> 2cc subways?
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14:17:03  <Terkhen> yes
14:17:17  <peter1138> it is possible, yes
14:17:31  <peter1138> aren't the 2cc subway trains included in the 2cc trainset anyway?
14:17:45  <Terkhen> yes, but I don't want to use all of them :)
14:17:49  <Terkhen> still, the issue is present in both set
14:17:51  <Terkhen> sets*
14:17:57  <peter1138> no, 2cc trainset uses railtypes
14:18:58  <Terkhen> <--- metros use railtype number 11, which in the railtype table is MONO
14:19:05  <Terkhen> <--- here is the table
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14:20:05  <peter1138> huh
14:20:11  <Terkhen> if they don't use a specific railtype label I don't know if it is possible to tell them apart from other MONO trains
14:20:17  <Terkhen> so they will end up in the same railtype
14:21:05  <peter1138> that list is different to what's in the 2.0.0-beta4.1 grf
14:21:22  <peter1138> RAIL ELRL _120 E120 _160 E160 _230 E230 HSTR 3RDC 3RDR MONO MGLV
14:21:24  <peter1138> is what's in the grf
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14:21:47  <Terkhen> hmm... ok, then I don't understand what is happening :P
14:23:03  <peter1138> 2cc Subways uses the same table too
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14:24:11  <peter1138> hmm, but yeah, 2cc subways is on monrail
14:24:13  <peter1138> +o
14:24:14  <Terkhen> <---  it was "fixed" somewhen
14:24:43  <peter1138> hmm
14:28:53  <peter1138> i dunno then
14:31:12  <Terkhen> whatever :P
14:32:20  <Terkhen> if djn becomes active again I'll ask him about the railtype scheme
14:36:17  <peter1138> hmm
14:36:20  <peter1138> i'm stupid :(
14:36:27  <peter1138> i shouldn't've implemented railtype speed limits
14:36:30  <peter1138> it's pointless :p
14:36:37  <Terkhen> :D
14:37:01  <Terkhen> given the amount of different limits in nutracks some people love them :)
14:37:37  <Terkhen> they would confuse me a lot though, I'm too used to checking train limits only
14:37:43  <Terkhen> and I don't see the point for using them either
14:39:49  <planetmaker> yes. Meanwhile I don't see use for railtype speed limits anymore either ;-)
14:40:12  <planetmaker> that's what we have engines for. And wagons
14:40:38  <planetmaker> and if one wants, one could extend signals to programmable ones or <whatever>
14:41:40  <Ammler> what else then speed limit makes the use of different types?
14:42:53  <Terkhen> different trains on each type, different acceleration model
14:43:13  <Terkhen> there are more properties, but I have not checked railtypes much
14:44:35  <peter1138> i envisaged normal and fast tracks, i guess
14:44:52  <peter1138> so that a true high speed network would have to cost far more
14:45:15  <peter1138> rather than loads of different speeds for each type :S
14:45:21  <Terkhen> :P
14:45:49  <peter1138> high-speed non-electric seems pointless, f.e.
14:45:50  <planetmaker> well, it doesn't hurt to have that option. Nearly everything can be abused
14:46:34  <planetmaker> vehicles could also just crawl in April, drive insanely in May and normal in other months. But look differently around Christmas
14:46:52  <planetmaker> not that it would make sense ;-)
14:50:08  <Ammler> different speed of same type might not be useful, but speed limit of a special type does, imo
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15:51:26  <Mazur> Took some time to find out how, but now any CD in my RW will be mounted on /media/<cd name> at boot.
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17:22:21  <lucas92> hi
17:22:25  <Alberth> hi
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17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22531 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 5 changes by Gavin
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18:49:10  <xQR> when switching from console parsing to admin interface i was hoping to be able to get more information from the game, not less :/
18:49:31  <xQR> anyone willing to look into what is probably a very small change but can make me infinitely happy? :D
18:49:36  <xQR>
18:49:37  <xQR> <3
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19:24:59  <Terkhen> meh, I'm bored
19:25:09  <andythenorth> ho
19:25:14  <andythenorth> with what?
19:25:30  <Alberth> do a bit fileio refactoring :p
19:26:26  <Terkhen> andythenorth: with looking something entertaining to do, but I'm not sure I'm bored enough to follow Alberth's suggestion :P
19:26:31  <Terkhen> Alberth: what needs to be done?
19:26:37  <andythenorth> Terkhen: convert FIRS to nml?
19:27:06  <Terkhen> hmm... IIRC we were waiting for the conversor to be fully ready
19:27:12  <Terkhen> I don't know its current status
19:27:26  <Alberth> a goal could be to enable tar-writing
19:27:28  <andythenorth> ask Yexo
19:27:48  <Terkhen> oh, it can't write tars now?
19:27:53  <Alberth> a simpler goal would be to eliminate functions that operate on globals, by making them methods
19:28:06  <Yexo> Terkhen: if you want the diff I can upload it?
19:28:33  <Alberth> hmm, didn't check, really, but unless it is shared with bananas, I'd guess no
19:28:42  <Terkhen> Alberth: I'll give that file a look... but it is one of the scary files I have never checked :P
19:29:09  <Terkhen> Yexo: I wouldn't mind playing a bit with it and checking the output; what was missing?
19:29:19  <Yexo> not sure exactly
19:29:25  * Alberth wonders what Terkhen thinks of network code :p
19:30:19  <Terkhen> Alberth: "makes sense but not completely, if I touch something it could fail badly"
19:30:52  <Yexo> Terkhen: and
19:30:54  <Yexo> apply in that order
19:31:19  <Alberth> andythenorth: why not convert it manually? I know it is a lot, but looking at it, you may see improvement opportunities
19:31:34  <Alberth> and/or re-organization possibilities
19:32:17  <Alberth> Terkhen: haha :)    that sort of code is what I consider scary :)
19:32:52  * Yexo warns Alberth not to look at the diffs I just posted for Terkhen :p
19:33:05  * Alberth would not dare look at them
19:33:37  <Alberth> although the title does not suggest it does networking :p
19:33:49  <Yexo> that doesn't mean it's not scary code
19:34:21  <Alberth> how's the nml project going?
19:34:41  <Yexo> there is currently a somewhat big open bug with regard to the action2 reordering
19:34:43  <Terkhen> Yexo: thanks, let's see :)
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19:35:48  <Yexo> Alberth:
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19:36:34  <Yexo> progress has been a bit slow lately
19:36:38  <Terkhen> we planned to convert FIRS 0.6.4, right?
19:36:41  <Yexo> yep
19:37:01  <Yexo> I did some commits to that branch to make it easier to convert / to fix some smallish bugs
19:37:38  <Terkhen> ok :)
19:38:28  <Yexo> to convert, first compile firs so you have both firs.grf and firs.nfo
19:38:44  <Yexo> after that do "grep src/graphics firs.nfo > real_sprites.nfo"
19:39:05  <Yexo> realsprites.nfo, not real_sprites.nfo
19:39:14  <Yexo> that file is hardcoded in the diff
19:40:02  <Yexo> after that "nmlc firs.grf --nml firs.nml" should work
19:42:03  <Terkhen>
19:42:42  <Terkhen> it works for a while (giving warnings) and then that error
19:43:47  <Yexo> hmm, should be tile.x instead of tile['x']
19:43:50  <andythenorth> Alberth: I won't convert FIRS manually...
19:43:56  <andythenorth> ...because I'm not smoking crack
19:44:07  <Yexo> I thought I had fixed that somewhen, but apparently not
19:44:33  <Yexo> that bug is in nml trunk, so could be fixed there
19:45:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: i don't see how that helps, but perhaps you could consider starting doing that?
19:46:09  <andythenorth> I would have to smoke a lot of crack before I'd consider starting to smoke crack :P
19:46:15  <Terkhen> Yexo: what should I do for tile['tile']? after fixing tile.x and tile.y it fails on tile.tile
19:46:29  <Yexo> tile.tiletype
19:46:36  <Terkhen> ok :)
19:46:37  <Yexo> see class LayoutTile 40 lines down
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19:47:19  <Wolf01> 'night
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19:48:06  <Alberth> Yexo: I don't even understand that bug description :p
19:48:15  <Terkhen>
19:48:41  <Yexo> Alberth: IIRC you wrote the code that handles that :p
19:48:59  <Yexo> Terkhen: oh, you have to create the directory lang_output yourself
19:49:07  <Terkhen> ok
19:49:23  <Terkhen> Done :)
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19:49:38  <Alberth> sprite layout?
19:49:55  <Yexo> sprite layout = action2 for houses / industries
19:52:53  <Alberth> the only 'real' things I did are town names, snow line, and sound as far as I can remember
19:52:56  <Terkhen> Yexo: did you try to compile the results?
19:53:11  <Yexo> yes
19:53:19  <Yexo> but it needs 1 or 2 manual fixes
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19:53:56  <Terkhen> oh right, I was using default nml and it misses "rot"
19:54:07  <Terkhen> yes, I had to move default.lng to english.lng and change its id
19:54:54  <Yexo> shell script to automate that
19:55:26  <SmatZ> hmm... kernel 2.6.38 sucks... there's like 20% chance I get a kernel panic during bootup :/
19:55:28  <Yexo> it 'fixes', default.lng -> english.lng and ghte grflangid
19:55:36  <Terkhen> great, thank you :)
19:56:41  <Yexo> a more proper fix for rot would be to add it to nml as function "rot(value, amount)"
19:58:51  <Yexo> Terkhen: a good start would be to clean some of the mess in, if that's done we could start committing parts without breaking default nml
19:59:04  <Terkhen> Yexo:
19:59:37  <Yexo> hmm, how did you call nmlc?
20:00:04  <Terkhen> ../nfo2nml/nmlc firs.nml
20:00:17  <Yexo> with the patch applied?
20:00:24  <Yexo> if so, that's the problem
20:00:28  <Terkhen> yes, that is the patched version
20:00:29  <Terkhen> ok :)
20:00:40  <Yexo> the patch hardcodes the decode function, you can't encode an nml file with the patch applied
20:02:21  <Terkhen> nmlc: "input", line 46650: Cannot refer to block 'action2_6584' with feature 0A, expected feature is 09
20:02:42  <Yexo> replace that line by "CB_FAILED"
20:02:49  <Yexo> since that is what the line actually means
20:03:01  <Yexo> but I couldn't find a way to automate that fix
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20:04:55  <Terkhen> I have firs.grf now :)
20:05:21  <Yexo> great :)
20:07:30  <Yexo> one known bug is that firs uses action7 to skip some action4's
20:07:45  <Terkhen> parameters are gone, I remember some warnings about action14 during conversion though
20:07:45  <Yexo> it assigns a different string as name of some cargoes depending on the climate
20:07:50  <Yexo> nml doesn't support that syntax
20:07:50  <andythenorth> I'm not sure that's even wise
20:08:02  <andythenorth> I don't like that behaviour, it's unhelpful variation
20:08:05  <andythenorth> I might rethink it
20:08:11  <Yexo> so currently it just uses the first or last value of the string
20:08:20  <Yexo> action14 is missing, would be nice to add too :)
20:09:31  <Terkhen> I can't test much more because FIRS fails to detect 1.1.1 as a version higher than 1.1.0, I guess those checks are broken too
20:10:02  <Yexo> hmm, that is one bug I don't remember
20:10:04  <Terkhen> I still don't know python and this is something quite big for a start, but I'll check the code of the patches and try to understand what it is doing :P
20:10:51  <Yexo> nml is still my first python project too :)
20:11:10  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I don't know python
20:11:12  <andythenorth> I just code in it
20:12:13  <Terkhen> :D
20:12:49  <Terkhen> Yexo: why is regr_added changing the regression tests?
20:14:06  <Yexo> because the decompile script doesn't support grf files without an action8
20:15:06  <Terkhen> I did not know that you could do newgrfs without that
20:15:29  <Yexo> baseset grfs don't have an action8
20:15:34  <Yexo> other than that all grfs need one
20:16:11  <Terkhen> so the newgrfs generated from the current regression files would fail if loaded in openttd?
20:16:17  <Yexo> yes
20:16:21  <Yexo> at least some of them
20:16:53  <Terkhen> ok :)
20:20:34  <Terkhen> I have coded operations before, I'll try to understand and split 010 in nicer pieces
20:20:51  <Yexo> ok, thanks :)
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20:29:59  * andythenorth thinks of rebuilding all FIRS templating in nml
20:30:14  <andythenorth> brrr :)
20:30:26  <Terkhen> :P
20:31:21  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- templates of opengfx+ industries, maybe we can reuse some of them?
20:31:46  <andythenorth> perhaps
20:31:59  <Eddi|zuHause> boah... drinking holidays are ever so complicated...
20:32:07  <andythenorth> the template structure of FIRS is not too complicated, but there's a lot of it
20:32:25  <andythenorth> I mostly avoided templates-in-templates, but not entirely
20:33:11  <Terkhen> we could take advantage of templating for conversion; we should convert all of the industries with the same template at once
20:33:27  <Terkhen> but given how the resulting code looks I'm not sure if we will be able to find those :P
20:33:45  <andythenorth> it needs to be done by manually comparing with pnfo code
20:33:48  <Terkhen> I guess we could start from the action0 and find the callbacks from it
20:33:51  <andythenorth> grep templates
20:34:03  <Terkhen> yes, I have checked FIRS templates for ogfx-industries
20:34:24  <andythenorth> there are 35 templates currently
20:35:43  <Terkhen> big :P
20:39:37  <Zuu> Why does g++ need to be so bitchy about my circular references involving a childclass of a template class :-p
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20:42:20  * Zuu thinks of an ugly workaround by moving the code that uses the circluar refrence up/down in the inherence tree
20:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: make one inheritance private?
20:44:42  <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure if that solves anything)
20:45:14  <Zuu> I don't think so as it doesn't change the include-stuff (as far as I know)
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20:52:25  <fjb> Hm, a class is a struct (ok, only if all members are public). Circular references to structs should be possible as long as you reference the struct and no typedef of the struct.
20:53:11  <Zuu> Regular circular references work fine, just this one is incredible complicated.
20:54:02  <Zuu> I think it is a symptom that I need to sort out a better way for the windows in my windowsystem to communicate with the main GUI code.
20:54:07  <fjb> Then I don't know. I'm usually asking here when I'm having a C(++) problem.
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21:21:05  <Terkhen> good night
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22:41:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22532 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: Do not create an implicit order if the current order is the first order in the order list and we visit the station of the last entry of the order list.
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