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00:32:34 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:47:50 *** fjb|mobile_ [~fjb@p5DDFD828.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:48:14 *** fjb is now known as Guest3441 00:48:15 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFD828.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:50:06 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:50:09 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:54:44 *** fjb|mobile [~fjb@p5DDFE1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:55:30 *** Guest3441 [~frank@p5DDFE1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:10:54 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 01:28:45 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d822d5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 01:29:18 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:49:32 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:56:39 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:09 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:18:05 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:23:16 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:24:03 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 02:26:02 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-207-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:54 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-138-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:34:07 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:7c78:ab26:45b8:bb73] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:39:39 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:40:03 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 02:43:43 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 02:50:06 *** pikka [~yaaic@120.16.87.68] has joined #openttd 02:51:54 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:56:43 <pikka> Bing tiddle tiddle bong 03:16:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C7DF.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:34 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 03:28:31 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:37:11 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:45:29 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 03:47:11 *** ar3ka [~ident@ecg192.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 03:47:17 *** ar3ka is now known as ar3kaw 03:47:51 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecg192.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7621C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7355A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:09:31 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:10:25 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 05:10:29 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 05:14:57 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 05:45:36 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:51:00 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 06:07:01 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:12:41 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 06:12:53 <a1270> just roll back to the 'stable' build of oldness. 06:13:01 <a1270> bbl 06:21:48 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:30:55 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 06:32:10 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ebr154.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 06:39:34 *** ar3k [~ident@ecg192.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:43:36 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:45:29 *** Amis [~Amis@5400EA0E.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 06:49:53 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:54:45 <planetmaker> good morning 06:57:55 <Terkhen> good morning 06:59:09 <pikka> good evening 07:00:17 <Terkhen> hi pikka 07:00:26 <pikka> hello 07:04:18 <planetmaker> hoy Terkhen & pikka 07:21:05 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-005-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:33:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 07:33:24 <andythenorth> morning 07:33:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: could we have make build multiple grfs from same repo and distribute them in one tar? 07:35:03 <planetmaker> currently: not 07:35:18 <planetmaker> also "hello andythenorth " :-) 07:35:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd not quite see the advantage in most cases to distribute grfs bundled 07:36:02 <planetmaker> what is your use-case you envision? 07:36:46 <planetmaker> I think you have in mind a re-write of bananas, I assume? 07:38:20 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I also think that currently OpenTTD expects to find a single piece of "content" in each tar, so you would need to change OpenTTD code too 07:39:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the use case is HEQS 07:39:06 <planetmaker> Terkhen: afaik it handles tars just as "directories", sort of 07:39:13 <andythenorth> few of you like my approach there 07:39:15 <planetmaker> like base sets are in one tar, too 07:39:32 <Terkhen> what's the problem with a parameter based approach? :P 07:40:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: indeed, for now I think the most viable approach is a few parameters which enable / disable vehicle classes 07:40:15 <planetmaker> Probably three: trams / trucks / rail 07:40:35 <andythenorth> I have that done already ;) 07:40:45 <planetmaker> but... I think we talked about that before and recommended exactly that solution with certain default parameters 07:40:49 <andythenorth> yes 07:40:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, that's ok 07:40:50 <Terkhen> that's how it's done already, IIRC the only thing missing is a switch for disabling the "core" trucks, just in case someone wants just bulldozers 07:41:03 <andythenorth> even that's done I think 07:41:11 <andythenorth> the chain of reasoning was this: 07:41:23 <andythenorth> there is a forum suggestion about improving newgrf compatibility 07:41:30 <andythenorth> which is mostly down to authors doing the right thing 07:41:40 <andythenorth> but I don't think anywhere there is written down 'the right thing' 07:41:48 <andythenorth> just outdated stuff from TTDP wiki 07:41:50 <planetmaker> that's right 07:41:55 <Terkhen> yes 07:42:05 <planetmaker> maybe we should add that. But ... the admin of the wiki will strongly disagre 07:42:08 <planetmaker> e 07:42:18 <andythenorth> maybe time to do the move from TTDP wiki.... 07:42:26 <planetmaker> yes, it is, if you ask me 07:42:27 <andythenorth> anyway, if I write a thing saying "don't mix types in a grf" I am a hypocrite 07:42:43 <planetmaker> yes and no 07:42:48 <planetmaker> so am I. 07:43:07 <planetmaker> there's no black and white only. 07:43:22 <planetmaker> if it was totally bad, it would need forbidding by the specs. Which isn't 07:43:56 <planetmaker> but it's more of a convenient for the user thing. Monolithic set authors disagree there 07:44:05 <planetmaker> which there are two :-P 07:45:14 <andythenorth> I am going out soon, but it might be a good time to write a 'guidelines' 07:45:20 <andythenorth> this week 07:45:38 <Terkhen> HEQS mixes trams and road vehicles, but that separation is unfair for it IMO; if there were roadtypes HEQS separation of vehicles would be different :) 07:46:03 <Terkhen> what kind of guidelines? 07:47:00 <andythenorth> "don't mix types" 07:47:06 <andythenorth> "vehicle sets shouldn't screw with cargos" 07:47:14 <andythenorth> "town sets shouldn't screw with cargos" 07:47:21 <andythenorth> "industry sets shouldn't screw with towns" 07:47:31 <andythenorth> "landscape grfs shouldn't screw with anything else" 07:47:41 <andythenorth> "cost parameters are a good idea" 07:47:50 <andythenorth> "use action 14 as it's supposed to be used" 07:48:14 <andythenorth> "if you have a big set, consider a parameter for 'core/extended'" 07:48:29 <andythenorth> "use compatibility checks when there are known problems" 07:48:35 <andythenorth> "never disable another grf" 07:48:43 <andythenorth> etc 07:48:49 <Terkhen> anyone else is picturing andythenorth descending from a mountain with two stone tables? :P 07:48:55 <andythenorth> meh 07:49:01 <andythenorth> I just list what I've been told to do :P 07:49:04 <Terkhen> :D 07:49:17 <Terkhen> those rules are good IMO 07:49:19 <andythenorth> plus we can add nfo + nml code examples for common cases 07:49:43 <andythenorth> "light in game comes from bottom right" 07:49:51 <Terkhen> all of the problems I had with other NewGRFS we caused by not following those rules 07:49:59 <Terkhen> were* 07:50:10 <Terkhen> anyways, bbl 07:50:36 <planetmaker> [09:48] Terkhen anyone else is picturing andythenorth descending from a mountain with two stone tables? :P <-looooool! 07:50:38 * andythenorth > going out too 07:50:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: indeed it would be good to write down what you just outlined 07:50:57 <planetmaker> Indeed that's missing 07:51:08 <pikka> yes. perhaps. 07:51:11 <andythenorth> get frosch to write the final versions - no-one ever argues with him for some reason :P 07:51:56 <planetmaker> those are "good practise" rules which cannot be enforced a hard way, but they indeed should be around 07:52:07 <planetmaker> it's similar to coding style rules. It works without. But much better with 07:53:02 * planetmaker doesn't see where pikka's newgrfs would have problems with these rules. Maybe, just maybe TAI. But... there the name already suggests it does ;-) 07:53:10 <andythenorth> they're not new ideas :) I just write what I'm told :) 07:53:26 <andythenorth> it's more useful though if they're backed by reusable code for the common cases 07:53:35 <planetmaker> not new. But "new" can also mean "summarized and made accessible" 07:54:23 <planetmaker> agreed, that code snippets might help. They can be added, though I'm not sure to what extend they make sense. But yes... 07:54:30 <pikka> Tai has no problem 07:55:06 <pikka> its multiple grfs, the town buildings and industries are separate 07:55:24 <pikka> nars on the other hand... :p 07:55:45 <andythenorth> nars 2 screws with my industry set :P 07:55:56 <andythenorth> I have to put my cargos where you decided they should go :P 07:56:02 <andythenorth> or I miss something in the spec :D 07:56:31 <planetmaker> right, nars :-) 07:56:36 <andythenorth> or I should read the manual on NARS parameters, but I Don't Read Manuals 07:56:41 <planetmaker> historical ballast. The past can't be un-done 07:56:47 <andythenorth> tis done 07:57:00 <andythenorth> and tis a fine set 07:57:18 <planetmaker> but does nars2 still have a regearing cargo? 07:57:39 <planetmaker> anyway... done is done :-) 07:57:43 <andythenorth> in my game, each regearable locomotive is very environmentally conscious 07:57:52 <planetmaker> :-D 07:57:52 <andythenorth> it carries 1t of recyclables :P 07:58:14 <planetmaker> probably the litter of the (very untidy) engine driver 07:58:23 <planetmaker> :-P 07:58:27 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5243.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:58:34 <planetmaker> quaaaak ;-) 07:58:49 <andythenorth> he knows when he's needed 07:58:55 <frosch123> moin :) 07:59:15 * andythenorth is going to Wooton now and will wave at Chipping Sodbury on the way 08:00:01 <andythenorth> bbl 08:00:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 08:01:21 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:07:10 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:07:13 <bodis> morning 08:19:41 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 08:20:24 <planetmaker> moin 08:24:06 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:25:32 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:29:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A1AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:33:42 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 08:36:39 <Terkhen> hi 08:40:38 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:40:41 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:45:41 <bodis> hi 08:53:51 <planetmaker> sunday-ink ;-) 08:58:58 <Terkhen> :) 09:01:26 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 09:05:02 <pikka> good evening frosch et al 09:05:27 <frosch123> hello pikka 09:05:37 <frosch123> you're a rare guest in my time zone :) 09:06:01 <pikka> in all time zones 09:06:30 <Terkhen> :P 09:07:25 * pikka yawns 09:07:47 <pikka> 2 more hours to go tonight 09:09:07 <pikka> then I only get exactly 10 hours before I start work tomorrow. the legal minimum! 09:10:06 <planetmaker> the "legal minimum"? 09:10:27 <pikka> yes 09:11:11 <planetmaker> how can there be a "legal minimum" for working hours? 09:11:17 <pikka> woo fire engines 09:11:27 <pikka> there isn't 09:11:45 <pikka> there's a legal minimum for the break between 09:11:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: Germany has a legal limit for the amount of time between shifts as well 09:12:21 <planetmaker> ah, yes, that there is. I misunderstood the context 09:13:18 <pikka> swine moat 09:13:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C7DF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 09:14:00 <pikka> anyway... frosch is going to code all our wishlists, right? :D 09:14:11 <planetmaker> :-D 09:14:51 <Alberth> eventually, very likely :) 09:14:58 <Terkhen> :D 09:15:16 <Terkhen> should I stop coding then? :) 09:15:36 <planetmaker> hm... no ;-) 09:15:50 <planetmaker> you're responsible for those wishes we don't even yet know ourselves :-P 09:15:58 <Terkhen> I was hoping that he would code my todo list too :/ 09:16:38 <planetmaker> there's so much which could be done... 09:16:48 <planetmaker> and only so little time :-( 09:17:02 <Terkhen> right now I'm trying to do town persistent storage, I wonder what could it be used for 09:17:53 <planetmaker> minimum deliveries for town growth 09:17:58 <pikka> indeed 09:18:05 <planetmaker> depending on town size 09:18:09 <pikka> although in my case, when I have the time I strangely lack the inclination 09:18:30 <pikka> :o 09:18:52 <pikka> stockpiling for towns :p 09:19:05 <frosch123> pikka: nope, i don't code. i'm just a douche bag commenting on everything 09:19:33 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of "douche bag" and "commenting"? 09:19:34 <pikka> a deutschebag 09:19:54 <planetmaker> @dict douche bag 09:20:09 <Terkhen> :D 09:20:22 * pikka must to aspley now, goodbye 09:20:31 <Alberth> bye 09:20:41 <DorpsGek> douche bag: bag of ideas with realisation instructions 09:20:46 <frosch123> [11:17] <Terkhen> right now I'm trying to do town persistent storage, I wonder what could it be used for <- towns are accessible from most other features: stations, industries, objects 09:20:49 <planetmaker> bye pikka 09:20:52 <Terkhen> later pikka 09:20:58 <frosch123> so it add local communication between these things 09:21:51 <Terkhen> frosch123: yes, that's my issue... I can see the most "obvious" features it could allow, but that communication will probably allow to do a lot of strange stuff I can't predict :) 09:21:55 <Terkhen> "magic" :P 09:22:16 <planetmaker> Terkhen: we'll find out with opengfx+ ;-) 09:22:25 <frosch123> yeah, it allows multiple newgrfs to team up against the player :p 09:22:32 <planetmaker> lool :-) 09:22:46 <planetmaker> new competition style "newgrf vs player"? 09:23:03 <__ln__> skynet! 09:23:59 <Terkhen> :D 09:25:13 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 09:29:31 <Alberth> I don't like such additions, you'll get dual systems where both the program and the newgrf try to do global control 09:29:45 <Alberth> too complicated to make any sense 09:30:45 <Terkhen> but openttd right now does not do much control regarding town growth 09:31:02 <frosch123> you can say that about almost every newgrf thingie, can't you? 09:31:03 <Alberth> so extend it? 09:32:09 <Alberth> frosch123: to some extent, yes, but now if a newgrf messes up, it is still understandable. 09:32:41 <Alberth> if they share information, it becomes impossible to decide what it happening 09:32:55 <Alberth> let alone how to handle such cases 09:33:21 <planetmaker> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action5 <-- for type 14 ... 16: what does the number after the , in the first column mean? 09:33:35 <Rubidium> magic ;) 09:33:38 <planetmaker> the 94, 95 and 96 respectively 09:33:52 <Rubidium> it's the same number |= 80h 09:33:56 <frosch123> planetmaker: read the lines above the table :p 09:33:58 <Rubidium> i.e. with bit 7 set 09:33:59 <Terkhen> Alberth: to access the town persistent storage you need to input a GrfID... most NewGRFs will access only "their" town persistent storage 09:34:06 <Alberth> also for eg debugging, you first need to reproduce the shared state before you can look at the problem 09:34:19 <Terkhen> if someone wants to do a mess and access other storages... he's asking for those complications :) 09:34:29 <planetmaker> oh 09:34:33 <planetmaker> thanks :-) 09:34:36 <Alberth> but the bug reports end up at our door step 09:34:50 <frosch123> Alberth: persistent storage is stored in the save 09:35:06 <frosch123> of course it needs to be exposed in the newgrf debug windos 09:35:13 <Rubidium> I'd say that NewGRFs may only write their own storage, but read the storage of others 09:35:27 <Rubidium> like they may read the parameters and version of others 09:35:38 <Alberth> and not read their own storage :p 09:36:28 <Terkhen> hmm... that makes sense, yes 09:36:45 <planetmaker> quite so :-) 09:36:54 <Alberth> a good step imho 09:37:05 <frosch123> but it would also disallow to define common interfaces, which might be served by different grfs 09:37:24 <frosch123> so, every grfs needs to know about everyone else, you cannot plug in something 09:37:44 <Alberth> you can write a newgrf that distributes data 09:38:49 <Alberth> frosch123: but even for reading, you need to know what data means 09:39:49 <frosch123> somewhen the idea was that you can write to storage with an arbitrary grfid, i.e. even with an id which does not belong to any loaded grf 09:40:11 <frosch123> so you could say there is generic town information stored with the grfid "TOWN" 09:40:31 <Rubidium> I'd say: use GRFID FFxxyyzz for that 09:40:35 <frosch123> and then you could define register 0 to contain growth information in a specific format 09:41:09 <frosch123> otoh you can say that most approaches to make stuff freely defineable by grfs has failed so far :p 09:41:16 <frosch123> like cargo classes, ... 09:41:50 <Rubidium> or grfids ;) 09:41:55 <Terkhen> yes, I'd prefer to make those things available via variables 09:42:04 <frosch123> but yes, restricting write access to the own grf and to grfids of a specific shape like FFxxyyzz would make sense :) 09:43:20 <Alberth> if I write a newgrf for controlling industries at the world, it needs to interface to the program, making a complicated mess. Imho it is better to cleanly either let the program control, or the newgrf control, not both 09:43:51 <Terkhen> so... 0 -> current newgrf, with write access, FFxxyyzz -> "fake" newgrfs, with write access, anything else (except the current newgrf) -> read access 09:44:53 <frosch123> maybe it is also a good idea, to postpone the common access, and first see what mess newgrfs come up with :p 09:44:59 <Rubidium> might even go so far to say FFFFFFFF is the current newgrf (is that used more often?) 09:45:45 <Terkhen> 0xFFFFFFFF is used as current newgrf for industry vars 0x67 and 0x68, yes 09:46:03 <Alberth> seems like a good value to re-use :) 09:46:20 <Terkhen> frosch123: I agree, common access can be implemented later if needed :) 09:46:40 <frosch123> would also ensure that newgrfs actually assign a value, and do not rely on zero-initialisation 09:46:45 <Terkhen> s/needed/we see that it won't cause a huge mess/ 09:47:16 <Alberth> frosch123: use a random generator for init ;) 09:49:24 <frosch123> [11:43] <Alberth> if I write a newgrf for controlling industries at the world, it needs to interface to the program, making a complicated mess. Imho it is better to cleanly either let the program control, or the newgrf control, not both <- the program should provide sane defaults, but the program cannot generically handle every requirement, they are too different for that 09:49:38 <pikka> what fun 09:53:14 <Terkhen> :P 09:54:00 <Terkhen> templated classes are fun too 09:55:32 *** fjb|mobile_ [~fjb@p5DDFD828.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55:43 <peter1138> hmm, is there a yacd_2.3 build around? 09:55:45 <peter1138> (windows) 09:56:46 <peter1138> ah ha 09:58:51 <pikka> knowing me knowing you 09:58:59 <pikka> ah ha 09:59:15 <pikka> time to go again... 09:59:27 <Rubidium> peter1138: isn't there one on bundles.openttdcoop.org? 10:00:55 <Terkhen> yes, there is one in bundles 10:06:49 <peter1138> yeah i found it 10:07:59 <peter1138> then i found that the openttdcoop server is on toyland 10:08:03 <peter1138> so yuck ;p 10:08:19 <Terkhen> :D 10:11:13 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:34:46 *** mib_myd0kk [5b96dfa6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:36:59 <mib_myd0kk> hi on MagLev food wagon is missing is this normal or some bug ? ver 1.1.1 10:37:15 <Yexo> which climate? do you use any newgrfs? 10:37:27 <mib_myd0kk> newgfx artic 10:37:38 <mib_myd0kk> snow 10:38:21 <mib_myd0kk> on Monorail i can build this wagon only on 10:38:29 <mib_myd0kk> maglev i can't 10:38:43 <Yexo> without any newgrfs there is a maglev food van in the arctic climate 10:39:37 <Yexo> can you upload your savegame somewhere? 10:40:17 <mib_myd0kk> i can't dont have any ftp 10:41:00 <Yexo> you can always make a topic at the forum 10:41:03 <Yexo> and upload it there 10:41:13 <Yexo> or use some web fileshare site 10:41:13 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:41:25 <Ammler> mib_myd0kk: you mean ogfx+<something>? 10:41:44 <Ammler> or what is newgfx 10:42:51 <mib_myd0kk> ok i try to attach to some new topic 10:44:08 <Ammler> or create a valid thread :-) 10:45:36 <mib_myd0kk> :) 10:49:38 <mib_myd0kk> only file .sav? 10:50:09 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:52:04 <mib_myd0kk> Yexo can u check http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=55078 ? 10:53:34 <Chris_Booth> mib_myd0kk: I have problem with build food wagon on maglev railroad. Pls can someone check my save and give me aby clue how to repair this ? 10:53:45 <Chris_Booth> maybe spell check that 10:54:00 <planetmaker> mib_myd0kk: it's most probable a result of the newgrf you use 10:54:05 <planetmaker> don't use it 10:54:06 <Chris_Booth> and give a screen shot of the error 10:54:40 <Chris_Booth> also the openttd version you are using would be helpful 10:54:44 <Chris_Booth> and a list of grfs 10:54:47 <planetmaker> I don't know the openttdplus one, but... 10:55:02 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: he did. And the savegame has that 10:55:16 <planetmaker> just a few lines back ;-) 10:55:18 <Yexo> mib_myd0kk: the description of the openttdplus grf says "it REQUIRES 'old wagons, new cargos' to work" 10:55:21 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 10:56:43 <mib_myd0kk> ok i try to disable newgrf 10:57:23 <Rubidium> disabling NewGRFs mid-game will most likely cause many other issues 10:57:47 <Rubidium> likewise for adding other NewGRFs 10:57:47 <mib_myd0kk> i can't give you screen shot because it's not error 10:57:49 <mib_myd0kk> ;/ 10:59:29 <Chris_Booth> mib_myd0kk: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7429567/Sinningwell%20Transport%2C%209th%20Jul%202059.sav 10:59:37 <Chris_Booth> that .sav will fix your issue 11:02:17 <mib_myd0kk> chris if that sav will be working i buy you beer if you will be in Poland someday :D 11:02:35 <Chris_Booth> lol it works trust me 11:02:52 <Chris_Booth> I need to book a holiday to poland now 11:04:24 <planetmaker> good that it's just holiday season ;-) 11:04:34 <mib_myd0kk> yeah, it's not works for me ;/ 11:05:22 * planetmaker wonders though whether - if it were just for the beer - it would qualify as one of the top-10 of "most expensive beer in the world" 11:05:51 <Chris_Booth> lol very True planetmaker 11:06:10 <Chris_Booth> mib_myd0kk you need the grf I added 11:06:23 <Chris_Booth> then to type reset_engines into the game consol 11:06:53 <Yexo> mib_myd0kk: in any case that "openttd plus" grf is very much broken 11:07:06 <Yexo> don't use it in any new games you start 11:07:29 <mib_myd0kk> i keept it on my mind / never use openttd plus :) 11:07:53 <Yexo> actually you can't anymore in 1.1, which might be the reason of your problems now 11:08:20 <mib_myd0kk> i see 11:11:01 <mib_myd0kk> thanks for help Chris and Yexo 11:11:22 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 11:17:52 *** mib_myd0kk [5b96dfa6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 11:20:29 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 11:28:59 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host146-235-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:29:38 <Wolf01> hello 11:30:22 <__ln__> buongiorno 11:34:52 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:07 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 11:43:24 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:47:21 *** pikka [~yaaic@120.16.87.68] has left #openttd [] 12:01:42 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 12:06:26 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 12:07:32 *** zachanim1 [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 12:07:40 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:14:19 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:18:18 *** Bilge [5c1cc568@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:18:37 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-84-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:19:07 <Bilge> When placing a station to receive goods, does it matter if just one tile overlaps or the whole catchment overlaps the industry? I mean, does having more tiles overlap increase goods received at the station or not? 12:19:28 <planetmaker> no 12:20:04 <planetmaker> it matters for towns, of course. As every house produces mail and passengers separately 12:20:10 <Bilge> Yeah I figured 12:20:42 <Bilge> But on the contrary, for goods, the most efficient configuration is the least tiles? 12:20:42 <planetmaker> it might make a difference for *accepting* some cargo for some industries. Not all tiles accept all cargo for all industries 12:20:55 <planetmaker> but you can see that in the station build preview of what is accepted 12:21:50 <planetmaker> there's nothing to optimze for industries shipping stuff to a station. Either they do. or they don't. 12:24:51 <Bilge> Sure, thanks 12:25:09 <Bilge> Do you know how much real time passes for a year of in-game time? 12:25:20 <Bilge> I'm wondering how long I have to do these subsidies :) 12:26:08 * Alberth never bothers with subsidies 12:26:57 <planetmaker> 1 game year ~13 minutes 12:29:40 <Bilge> For a list of road vehicles, there is a blue diagonal line beneath their number for most of them but now there's like a gold coin for a couple of them... what does that mean? 12:31:03 <TWerkhoven> gold coin means its making profit 12:31:05 <planetmaker> indicator of how well they make money 12:31:18 <TWerkhoven> blue diagonal means its a baby (<1 year old) 12:31:33 <planetmaker> wiki helps you... http://wiki.openttd.org/Vehicle_list 12:31:37 <Bilge> Thanks 12:31:38 <Bilge> :) 12:31:49 <Alberth> @calc 2.22 * 365 12:31:49 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 810.3 12:31:59 <Alberth> @calc 810.3 / 60 12:31:59 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 13.505 12:32:44 <planetmaker> @calc 0.03 * 74 * 365 12:32:44 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 810.3 12:32:51 <planetmaker> :-) 12:34:24 <Alberth> For future reference: http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_gameplay#How_long_is_a_game_day_in_real_time.3F 12:35:05 <planetmaker> @calc 0.027 * 74 * 365 12:35:05 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 729.27 12:35:10 <planetmaker> @calc 0.027 * 74 * 365 / 60 12:35:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 12.1545 12:35:19 <planetmaker> much shorter in TTDPatch ;-) 12:36:00 <Alberth> shorter games are less fun :p 12:36:33 <Alberth> the daylength patches prove that ;) 12:37:02 <Bilge> Why might you increase or decrease the service interval? 12:37:39 <Alberth> more service == increased reliability == less breakdown 12:37:44 <Ammler> keep breakdowns lower? 12:38:20 <Alberth> but more service == less transport == less money :) 12:39:37 <Bilge> Breakdowns seem to be really short anyway 12:39:49 <Bilge> Whereas services are somewhat disruptive 12:40:03 <Bilge> Especially when a vehicle gets to its destination and then changes its mind, pathing all the way back to a depot somewhere 12:40:22 <Alberth> you can also add depot servicing in the orders 12:40:39 <Alberth> then it will not go looking for a depot on its own 12:40:52 <Alberth> otherwise, add more depots, they are not so costly :) 12:41:04 <planetmaker> orudge: we need a spambuster... 12:41:37 <Alberth> Bilge: breakdowns may be short but on a busy line/junction, they can cause much havoc in the flow 12:41:45 <orudge> planetmaker: pfft, why are my moderators never moderating. Seems I'm removing all the spam these days. 12:42:02 <planetmaker> orudge: well... I do. But I can't ban the person 12:42:16 <Ammler> orudge: if you don't trust someone, you don't get more help, obviously :-) 12:42:19 <planetmaker> And I just called you as it just started 12:42:20 <orudge> well, I'm not sure which spam you're referring to specifically anyway, I see spam in Off-Topic 12:42:36 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=51733 12:42:41 <orudge> ah 12:42:42 <orudge> well 12:42:43 <planetmaker> ^ just started posting 12:42:43 <orudge> I banned him 12:42:46 <planetmaker> ty 12:42:54 <planetmaker> one posting per minute or so... ;-) 12:43:22 <planetmaker> I thought better ask now than remove about one posting per thread... which is tedious at least 12:43:42 <planetmaker> from those "flood bots" 12:43:58 <planetmaker> the single posting spammers are not that bad 12:44:29 <orudge> well, it doesn't really matter how much spam is posted, I can remove it all in one swoop 12:44:34 <orudge> but obviously, the less the better in general 12:44:59 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has left #openttd [] 12:45:14 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has joined #openttd 12:45:27 <Ammler> you should allow mods to do that too 12:45:28 <planetmaker> well, I usually visit forums by "view new postings". And then such mass-postings are VERY visible 12:45:57 <planetmaker> I nearly never browse the forums by other methods ;-) 12:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "view new posts" only works for small forums 12:46:23 <planetmaker> works fine here, too 12:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause> especially since it's not possible to filter certain subforums 12:46:51 <orudge> Ammler: I can't 12:46:55 <orudge> without making them admins 12:47:02 <Ammler> planetmaker: how do you filter out the non-openttd forums? 12:47:07 <orudge> it's a phpBB admin feature, not a moderator feature :( 12:47:09 <planetmaker> brain 1.0 12:47:46 <Ammler> orudge: then make more admins :-) 12:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i only visit the openttd and graphics forum, and check all new posts in the subforums from there 12:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> with smaller forums like the german one, i use "view new posts" 12:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> one problem is always the AI subforum 12:50:17 <planetmaker> that's more clicks. Now I go to 'new postings' and then open the interesting ones in a separate tab and can read 12:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be moved out of general forum, next to the other subforums 12:50:27 <planetmaker> whereever the interesting ones are 12:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that means i must judge "interesting" posts from the title 12:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and i can't declare individual threads as "i don't care" 12:51:27 <planetmaker> I'd support that move of the NoAI sub-forum 12:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's _by far_ not optimal 12:51:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? in the sub-forum view you only see the topic titles, too 12:52:17 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the no-ai subforum was just for Truebrain, so he didn't need to browse the whole openttd forum 12:52:28 <Ammler> it is a bit silly to keep that 12:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but the number of potential "not-interesting" ones is way lower 12:52:41 <TrueBrain> Ammler: you make interesting assumptions :D 12:53:27 <Ammler> ah, it is nice to speak about you and assume you aren't around anyway :-P 12:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: having an AI subforum is fine, it just shouldn't be a sub-subforum of the general forum 12:53:38 <TrueBrain> highlighting does crazy stuff :) 12:53:45 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that I always said :D 12:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i know. i always said that, as well. only orudge is too lazy :p 12:54:20 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: well, part is user help, part is development 12:54:28 <TrueBrain> nah; he set it up as sub-sub to see if there was any interest as a seperate forum; there clearly is ;) 12:54:28 <Ammler> this special subforum just confuses 12:54:50 <Bilge> I don't get why vehicles will overtake a "crashed" vehicle but not a broken down one 12:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: they do, but only on straight road 12:55:31 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db180b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not near curves, stations or crossings 12:56:32 <Ammler> but if you move no-ai to same level as General and Development, confusion would be indeed gone :-) 12:57:33 <orudge> what confusion is there, exactly? 12:57:38 <orudge> nobody's reported anything, as far as I know 12:57:53 <Ammler> orudge: where would you post question about no-ai development? 12:58:03 <orudge> that'd be the NoAI forum 12:58:22 <orudge> perhaps NoAI should be a subforum of OpenTTD Development instead of General OpenTTD 12:58:24 <Alberth> suggestions and feedback, if you want to discuss the forum itself 12:58:56 <Ammler> orudge: then where do you post questions about certain ai? 12:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: the problem i have is that i don't care about new posts in the noai subforum, but whenever the noai subforum has a new post, the general forum gets marked as "has new posts" as well, so i have to go there, and mark the subforum as read 12:59:09 <orudge> again, anything AI-related should be in the AI forum 12:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: if it was an equal subforum, i could just ignore it 12:59:34 * Alberth agrees 12:59:35 <Ammler> orudge: which is not obvious since it is a subforum 12:59:40 <planetmaker> orudge: consistency with graphics requires NoAI to be a direct sub-forum of OpenTTD 12:59:51 <planetmaker> not of an OpenTTD sub-forum 12:59:57 <orudge> maybe, but I'd prefer not to clutter up the main forum index too much 13:00:05 <orudge> but we'll see 13:00:17 <planetmaker> we saw for two, three years now ;-) 13:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't think so, the AIs are not TTDP-compatible, so they can be an openttd subforum. just openttd-general sub-subforum is silly 13:00:35 <orudge> and nobody has complained until now, so it seems to be fine ;) 13:00:37 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9d2d:981c:9ba5:54b4] has joined #openttd 13:00:40 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:00:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what I say 13:00:45 <Bilge> I thought selling road recovered income in the original game? Now it seems everything is just more cost 13:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: i complained many times 13:00:57 <planetmaker> but it doesn't make sense to have them a sub-forum of any other openttd-subforum 13:00:57 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: on the forums itself? I don't recall reading any such tihng 13:00:59 <orudge> *thing 13:01:05 <orudge> but anyway 13:01:17 <planetmaker> I think we agree on where it should be. a sub-forum of f=55 ;-) 13:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure, but there was definitely talk in here 13:02:01 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: then I likely didn't see it, so it can't be considered an official suggestion or complaint :) 13:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm convinced there was a highlight involved as well :p 13:03:25 <Ammler> well, alternative would be remove no-ai completely 13:04:14 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=50836 and http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=37891 13:05:08 <Ammler> hmm, you might need to announce ai releases 13:05:10 <planetmaker> the latter is the initial creation topic 13:05:33 <Ammler> also isn't there time to think about a better name than no-ai? 13:06:03 <planetmaker> Not the Old AI? 13:06:22 <Ammler> no-ai is kind of "insiderish" 13:11:35 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 13:31:12 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:38:16 *** keoz [~keikoz@141.2.96.19] has joined #openttd 13:54:00 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 13:54:11 <andythenorth> hellos 13:55:08 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 13:55:16 <andythenorth> Ammler: you can give me a VM with ssh access? 13:58:23 <Ammler> yep 13:59:07 <Ammler> andythenorth: if you don't have any spedific desire, I setup a suse 11.4 then I can help you, but I could also setup another distro, if you want 13:59:10 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 13:59:15 <andythenorth> I am easy 13:59:25 <andythenorth> I am only familiar with OS X and FreeBSD 13:59:36 <andythenorth> but the needs are basic 13:59:53 <andythenorth> if it has python 2.6 and ssh I'm happy 14:00:06 <Ammler> you get already 2.7 :-) 14:00:23 <andythenorth> might have to add 2.6 14:00:36 <andythenorth> can't be bothered to figure out differences between the two ;) 14:01:08 *** keoz [~keikoz@141.2.96.19] has quit [Quit: keoz] 14:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> going from 2.6 to 2.7 should be easy. the other way not so much 14:02:28 <andythenorth> I need to be able to scp to it as well 14:02:40 * andythenorth hates scp for various reasons 14:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's trivial when ssh works 14:02:57 <Rubidium> then use sftp ;) 14:03:04 <Ammler> andythenorth: I would hightly recommend to use hg 14:03:13 <andythenorth> Ammler: might do later 14:03:18 <andythenorth> this is just fooling around initially 14:03:53 <andythenorth> it's not worth to setup a remote repo for the learning-pyramid exercises I'm doing 14:04:30 <Ammler> hmm, might be worth to training handling stage and production environment :-) 14:05:21 <Ammler> e.g. I have http://testing.dev.openttdcoop.org and http://dev.openttdcoop.org , if I am happy with testing, I simply pull stage 14:05:26 <andythenorth> I'm picking off one step at a time - the first is running a pyramid on a box 14:05:44 <andythenorth> I'll add hg after that 14:07:48 <andythenorth> Ammler: might be worth to read this for you - you might find it interesting? http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid_cookbook/dev/deployment.html 14:08:28 <Ammler> we use uwsgi for hgweb too 14:08:57 <planetmaker> any URL would do, I guess 14:10:09 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db180b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 14:10:47 <Ammler> andythenorth: I can help you with deploying your wsgi script then 14:10:59 <andythenorth> great :) 14:11:05 <andythenorth> I don't have one yet :) 14:11:26 <andythenorth> will take a few weeks to do this, one step at a time 14:12:50 <Ammler> yeah, I just meant you don't necessary care about that too :-P 14:13:06 <andythenorth> thanks 14:13:10 <andythenorth> ;) 14:16:15 *** keoz [~keikoz@141.2.96.19] has joined #openttd 14:20:37 *** Scuddles [~notme@cm22.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 14:20:52 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:22 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:23:06 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:23:27 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db180b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:23:29 *** Osai^2 [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:24:01 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:13 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC52C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:25:34 *** Yexo [~Yexo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:40 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:44 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:46 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:49 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:59 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:28:05 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:29:31 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:33:11 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:45:19 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:45:28 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:43 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:45:50 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:46:50 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:47:01 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:47:19 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:47:19 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:47:36 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:47:50 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:47:53 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 14:48:03 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 14:48:20 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:48:50 *** Yexo [~Yexo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:48:53 *** mode/#openttd [+o Yexo] by ChanServ 14:49:15 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:49:50 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:50:20 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:50:35 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:50:38 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 14:51:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:51:48 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 15:12:16 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-005-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 15:21:13 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:36:33 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:59 <planetmaker> he... last ttdp nightly from mid January 15:37:27 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-005-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:38:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 15:39:19 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:41:35 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 15:42:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.168.227] has joined #openttd 15:46:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:48:33 <Alberth> :D 15:48:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C7DF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:49:12 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:50:08 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:51:02 <Terkhen> :/ 15:51:30 <Terkhen> those commits are from newgrf objects right? 15:51:31 <Bilge> What are you supposed to do about vehicles getting old? 15:52:03 <Thorn_> what any self respecting company doesn't do - replace them 15:52:03 <Yexo> if you play with breakdowns on you could replace them with new vehicles 15:52:44 <Bilge> lol yes but how do I go about it 15:52:48 <Yexo> see http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoreplace 15:52:53 <Bilge> Manually ordering them into a depot... OK 15:55:54 <Bilge> Auto replace isn't intended to replace "old" vehicles though is it 15:56:10 <Bilge> It's for upgrading to different models, not replacing just the old ones with new ones of the same type 15:56:30 <Yexo> sorry, wrong link 15:56:40 <Yexo> you're right, I meant to link to autorenew: http://wiki.openttd.org/Autorenew#Autorenew 15:57:28 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes 15:59:37 <Terkhen> I see 15:59:55 *** keoz [~keikoz@141.2.96.19] has quit [Quit: keoz] 16:03:03 <Bilge> Why does a wood say that I only transport 37% of its monthly production and my station has a poor (32%) rating even though my train never leaves the station with anywhere near a full load and there are no competitiors? 16:03:22 <Bilge> If it actually PUT 100% of the load at the station I could carry it no problem so I don't understand why the production is so low 16:03:40 <Terkhen> Bilge: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating 16:11:30 <Bilge> That doesn't explain why the wood (industry) isn't "putting out" 16:11:46 <Yexo> industry production is linked to station rating 16:12:12 <Yexo> same page, little lower: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Cargo_delivery_to_stations 16:12:17 <Bilge> It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I only have one square of catchment overlapping then? 16:12:24 <Yexo> no 16:13:31 <Terkhen> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Production_change <--- for production changes check this part of that page 16:22:59 <planetmaker> hm... one gotta love Deutsche Bahn. As soon as it gets warm and air conditions are needed, the airconditions fail on their high tech trains :-P 16:23:11 <planetmaker> same story as last year ;-) 16:26:30 <Terkhen> because they did not try them at all until now? 16:28:33 * Terkhen is baffled by pools 16:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> same procedure as every year. 16:30:19 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:31:06 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:33:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 16:39:10 <Alberth> Terkhen: just a splash of water in a hole, or a smallvector-like thing iirc :) 16:40:31 <Terkhen> what confuses me the most is the strange inheritance and template magic :P 16:40:55 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 16:41:30 <Alberth> oh yeah. there are a few members that you want to be able to access from the 'wrong' object without having to prefix it 16:44:11 <Alberth> pool item has a GetNumItems() eg 16:44:33 <Terkhen> I'm also wondering how to deal with the ordering of the persistent storage arrays regarding grfid... I don't think that it is worth the effort of sorting them by grfid for finding them more easily 16:44:48 <Terkhen> so I'm thinking on first stored, first appended to the list 16:45:02 <Alberth> that's what a pool does 16:45:14 <Terkhen> no, I was talking about the list for each town 16:46:13 <Terkhen> oooh, I need multiple inheritance :) 16:46:24 <Alberth> src/misc/hashtable.hpp or src/core/smallmap_type.hpp may be alternatives 16:46:26 <Terkhen> so I must be doing something wrong :P 16:46:45 <Terkhen> but I don't think that those types are prepared to be used in saveload code 16:46:53 <Alberth> C++ has multi-inheritance, except the .NET MS version 16:48:52 <Alberth> you could also sort/hash on a combination of town-id and grf-id 16:48:54 <Rubidium> Terkhen: take a look at how stations store their specs. You could do something similar for towns with their smallmap of persistent storage 16:49:12 <andythenorth> how many TTDP users are there thought to be ? 16:49:31 <Alberth> < 6*10**9 16:49:31 <Terkhen> I'll check that, thanks 16:49:32 <Rubidium> definitely 2 16:49:58 * andythenorth was reading the grf-crawler thread 16:50:23 <andythenorth> extending action 14 to identify content, compatibility seems non-controversial? 16:50:49 <Terkhen> does TTDP supports action14 or just ignores it without crashing? 16:50:51 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-066-103-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:51:19 <Rubidium> Terkhen: if new enough the latter, I hope 16:51:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: by the looks of it 126 downloads in the last week 16:51:55 <andythenorth> so some 16:52:07 <Terkhen> extending action 14 for that would be nice, although you will have a hard time defining types of "content" 16:52:20 <andythenorth> not if it follows the nfo spec 16:52:29 <andythenorth> for newgrf 16:52:37 <Terkhen> in which way? 16:52:47 <Rubidium> against 24k for OpenTTD 16:52:52 <andythenorth> stations, trains, ships, aircraft 16:52:52 <Terkhen> each type of Action0 is a type of content? 16:52:57 <andythenorth> effectively yes 16:53:10 <Terkhen> then you need to add extras like basecosts, snowline and so on 16:53:44 <Terkhen> I don't know how they are handled but I guess they don't have their own type of action0 16:54:02 <andythenorth> mostly 16:54:03 <Rubidium> action0general or something? 16:54:07 <andythenorth> some are general yes 16:54:13 <Rubidium> okay, general variable 16:54:16 <andythenorth> I have no problems with doing it that way, limited as it may be 16:54:23 <Terkhen> "action0general = other" then? 16:54:28 <andythenorth> it has some problems, but perfect is enemy of good 16:55:00 <Rubidium> Terkhen: but... it's also used for e.g. engine overrides and translation tables (cargo, railtype) 16:55:30 <Terkhen> that classification also fails to distinguish between buses/trucks and trams, or between trains using different rail types 16:55:39 <Terkhen> but those are not big issues IMO 16:55:48 <andythenorth> trams are a definite entity currently 16:55:55 <andythenorth> their movement code is different 16:56:03 <Terkhen> but they use the same action0 than normal road vehicles 16:56:04 <planetmaker> openttd already has an internal table which keeps track of used features, that is action0. 16:56:18 <planetmaker> Not sure whether all action0 types are considered, though 16:56:20 <Rubidium> pff... maybe define some default tags for NewGRFs which the author can set, or bananas can provide a suggest for when the newgrf is uploaded 16:56:23 <andythenorth> I wouldn't do this programmatically, it would be action 14 or other using keywords from a fixed dictionary 16:56:34 <andythenorth> we control the dictionary, no-one else 16:56:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can parse the action0s ;-) 16:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> does TTDP supports action14 or just ignores it without crashing? <- newer versions ignore it, older versions reject the grf due to invalid sprite 16:57:06 <planetmaker> but... that's probably too much 16:57:18 <planetmaker> some pre-made categories are fine 16:57:21 <andythenorth> yes 16:57:30 <Terkhen> yes 16:57:33 <andythenorth> and if some author disagrees, there's a process to lobby to change them 16:57:34 <planetmaker> you could take grf crawler's categories 16:57:39 <planetmaker> and add the new ones openttd supports 16:57:51 <planetmaker> or maybe a bit more fine-grained 16:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-made categories and an auto-suggest by grf content (used actions) 16:58:24 <andythenorth> I liked the action 14 suggestion by alberth best 16:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. alpine.grf would get "houses, industries", NARS gets "trains, cargos" 16:58:49 <planetmaker> like bridges, rail tracks (=infrastruc), trams, road vehicles, aircraft, trains, maglev, monorail, metro, narrow gauge as sub-categories 16:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> trees.grf gets "landscape, static" 16:58:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause both of those should be verboten :P :D 16:59:07 <planetmaker> static. VERY good and important point 16:59:07 <andythenorth> (alpine + NARS) 16:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i agree. but they do exist :p 16:59:23 <planetmaker> no GUI ingame yet, but ... 16:59:25 <andythenorth> this needs turning into a spec :) 16:59:33 * andythenorth will have to bath the baby in two minutes 16:59:37 <andythenorth> but maybe time later 16:59:48 <planetmaker> sounds like dejàvu 16:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd already checks whether a grf can be static. you can just copy that check 16:59:51 <planetmaker> :-P 16:59:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's babies 16:59:58 <planetmaker> :-) 16:59:58 <andythenorth> same shit, different day 17:00:00 <andythenorth> and vice versa 17:00:13 <andythenorth> incidentally, if I do manage to recode bananas... 17:00:27 <andythenorth> ...and add some web pages per grf 17:00:39 <andythenorth> it would have to only be grfs allowed to be distributed with openttd imo 17:00:51 <andythenorth> I don't fancy supporting some extra system for mad people 17:00:58 <planetmaker> ^ 17:01:12 <andythenorth> people who don't allow their grf on the content service are wrong and not playing properly 17:01:15 <Terkhen> it shouldn't support anything that cannot be downloaded ingame 17:01:18 <planetmaker> it'd mean unnecessary extra work. 17:01:28 <planetmaker> either allow that or don't use it 17:01:29 <andythenorth> don't support the anti-social 17:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't really that many grfs that disallow distribution 17:01:41 <andythenorth> there's one famous one I believe 17:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> some canset version was "withdrawn" 17:01:59 <planetmaker> probably yes 17:02:16 <andythenorth> incidentally, someone explained to me once why a GPL grf doesn't need to display a gpl notification in game 17:02:18 <andythenorth> why is that? 17:02:18 * planetmaker doesn't want to remember those times 17:02:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: because it simply doesn't require that 17:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't need to know the license for using the program 17:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only for modifying/distributing 17:02:55 <andythenorth> there was a specific license FAQ about it somewhere 17:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so displaying it ingame is pointless 17:03:08 <planetmaker> BUT: if you modify a gpl'ed programme which has that display: then you must not remove it 17:03:16 <andythenorth> I thought it fell on the wrong side of an interactive program should display the license as part of its startup 17:03:20 <andythenorth> but apparently not 17:03:44 <Terkhen> this is a non-issue anyways: supporting stuff that can't be downloaded ingame does not serve any purpose 17:03:51 <andythenorth> anyways, I was also wondering about extending action 14 with a license field 17:03:56 <planetmaker> thus: if original author doesn't do it: you can but need not. If s/he does: then you need to 17:03:56 <Terkhen> it is detrimental to openttd and to its players 17:04:08 <andythenorth> but does a license field serve any purpose? 17:04:20 <planetmaker> IMHO yes 17:04:25 <planetmaker> on bananas: 100% 17:04:41 <andythenorth> bananas already has that on the web interface 17:04:58 <Terkhen> I don't think that it is worth to add a action14 field with a license, the tars already include the license inside them 17:05:14 <andythenorth> the general direction I would like to go is to have action 14 encapsulate as much metadata as possible along with the grf 17:05:25 <andythenorth> then the information travels with the file 17:05:27 <Terkhen> and including the license in the tar is compatible for other types of content 17:05:44 <Terkhen> so IMO action 14 should only store newgrf specific info 17:06:12 <Terkhen> anything else such as license or other metadata common to all data types should be stored in the tar, openttd can access that too and it would be common 17:06:25 <Terkhen> s/data types/content types/ 17:06:32 <andythenorth> like a manifest? 17:06:39 <andythenorth> xml :P 17:06:46 <Terkhen> IIRC there is a file with metadata already 17:06:55 <Terkhen> but I'm not sure about that :P 17:07:30 <planetmaker> within tars? no 17:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but including all sorts of metadata in action 14 (like translated readmes etc.) means you have to duplicate a lot of data, or have grfcodec fill them in automatically (which it won't, so you need other programs like cpp) 17:07:57 <andythenorth> it might be a bad idea 17:08:07 <Terkhen> readmes should definitely be distributed in the tar 17:08:38 <planetmaker> also... a re-write of bananas IMHO should not touch a14. Or possibly I just don't see why and where 17:08:58 <planetmaker> maybe tags... but... 17:08:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's maybe a different purpose I have in mind 17:09:05 <andythenorth> basically around tags yes 17:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the rewrite of bananas would be totally independent from extending action 14 17:09:24 <planetmaker> yep. It'd make things needlessly complicated 17:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> after all, each grf author could still leave out entries from action 14 17:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> then bananas must still work 17:09:47 <planetmaker> yup 17:09:49 <andythenorth> I think that action 14 should become required....but that is a way off probably 17:10:08 <andythenorth> if ever 17:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't make things required, grf specs are defined to be upwards compatible 17:10:28 <andythenorth> I was thinking instead about filtering the grfs you already have 17:10:38 <andythenorth> you can find new grfs with the slightly-not-optimum tags 17:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> any grf from before action 14 was introduced must still work in the future 17:10:47 <andythenorth> but you can't find train grfs in your existing grfs 17:11:12 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you can require it of uploaded content, or of new newgrfs, by e.g. having grfcodec and nml fail without 17:11:31 <andythenorth> why can't we patch old grfs? Apart from it's boring.... 17:11:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: because then they're new grfs 17:11:49 <andythenorth> new newgrfs :P 17:12:00 <andythenorth> and we don't have the rights 17:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: differing md5 sum 17:12:10 <Alberth> you need to have permission by the license 17:12:16 <andythenorth> so another idea I have: only distribute new newgrfs that have a license allowing modification 17:12:27 <andythenorth> it would cause a few months of argument 17:12:33 <andythenorth> then everyone would get on with it 17:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: technically, you don't. you can modify programs without permission "to provide interoperability" 17:12:52 <andythenorth> I think it's dumb that some authors want to take their work to the grave with them 17:13:02 <andythenorth> or to the point where they get bored, leaving stuff unfinished / broken 17:13:09 <Terkhen> I'm guessing that allowing only certain licenses was already discussed and rejected before bananas was actually implemented :) 17:13:19 *** devilsadvocate_ [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 17:13:23 <planetmaker> possibly 17:13:27 <Terkhen> I don't think that we should force people to use licenses allowing modification 17:13:27 <andythenorth> there are some big noises who don't agree with copyleft style licensing 17:13:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: so the problem resolves itself in time 17:13:38 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:13:39 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ebr154.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— 3.2 (July '10)] 17:13:48 <andythenorth> the landscape has changed imo - far more people contributing work now under gpl 17:13:51 <Terkhen> if those people don't want to use such licenses, they might have their reasons 17:14:04 <Terkhen> we can only rally new people to a certain way of doing things 17:14:13 <Terkhen> and I think that has been working lately :) 17:14:36 * planetmaker would actually only hope that george and pikka would use more permissable licenses 17:14:44 <planetmaker> more community-friendly ones 17:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imposing license restrictions is _not_ the point of bananas 17:14:49 <andythenorth> pikka is up a creek without a paddle 17:15:09 <andythenorth> pikka can't use a copyleft license because he doesn't have copyright in a lot of his sprites :) 17:15:30 <andythenorth> so my idea would deprive me of some of my favourite grfs :( 17:15:36 <George> planetmaker: What problem do you have with the license? 17:15:52 <planetmaker> George: same what we discussed already: the -ND part 17:16:00 <andythenorth> hmm 17:16:04 <planetmaker> Should you fall of Earth no one can continue to carry on your work 17:16:07 <George> What is wrong with it? 17:16:25 <planetmaker> Like I for example did with TTRS 17:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, after 70 years 17:16:40 <planetmaker> or 95. Or whenever 17:16:53 <andythenorth> hmm 17:16:58 <George> FIRS team has personal GPL for any art/code I created 17:17:11 <andythenorth> I think quite a lot of pikka's stuff is now 100% original 17:17:18 <andythenorth> he just finds licensing silly :) 17:17:22 <andythenorth> is my guess 17:17:22 <Terkhen> :P 17:17:52 * andythenorth -> baby.bath() 17:18:01 <George> FIRS team can use it even not waiting till my death 17:18:08 <andythenorth> or should it be self.bath("baby") ? 17:18:30 <George> If anyone plans to do it too - request me and get your personal license 17:18:33 <planetmaker> George: I don't want to argue really. This is also not that I need a special sprite now or any code. I know that you always are very willing to share and I had always only got a positive answer from you whenever I asked you about something related to it 17:18:34 <Alberth> George: the point is anybody should be able to do that 17:18:40 <andythenorth> or house.bath("baby", "_self") 17:18:41 <andythenorth> ? 17:19:03 <andythenorth> or portalFactory.invokeBath("Baby", __this__) ? 17:19:15 <andythenorth> my wife thinks none of above 17:19:16 <George> Alberth: This anybody can request me 17:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <George> If anyone plans to do it too - request me and get your personal license <-- in debian speak, this fails the desert island test. 17:19:21 <planetmaker> The point, as Alberth says: if you suddenly vanish. Only andythenorth and myself could use that for FIRS 17:19:29 <andythenorth> my wife's method is BATH.NOW 17:19:35 <Alberth> George: which is kind of hard after you got hit by a bus 17:19:43 * planetmaker assignes andythenorth to BATH 17:20:09 <George> > use that for FIRS <- not only for FIRS. For anything under GPL 17:20:26 <planetmaker> hm... why then not GPL the thing? 17:20:42 <Alberth> what are you afraid of? 17:20:52 <George> because ECS includes graphics, that were crated by others 17:21:21 <planetmaker> that's definitely a valid point. They would need to agree 17:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two ways to solve that. either ask them for permission to change license, or replace those graphics 17:22:36 <George> I have the permission to use it for ECS, but I never asked the permission to use it for something else. So GPL seems does not fit 17:23:42 <George> > or replace those graphics <- I suppose I'll die first than it would happen :D 17:24:07 <George> But as you could see, it is done slowly 17:24:20 <planetmaker> George: could you - or does it exist - make a list of graphics which you drew yourself and could grant license to use in GPL projects? 17:24:40 <George> WIKI? 17:24:41 <planetmaker> or where modification is allowed under the condition of attribution? 17:24:48 <planetmaker> rather readme ;-) 17:25:02 <planetmaker> or is that there? 17:25:13 <George> > make a list of graphics which you drew yourself and could grant license to use in GPL projects? < - this is possible 17:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> wiki is the ecs readme :p 17:25:35 <George> Eddi|zuHause: Yes 17:25:39 <planetmaker> George: and I assume the code is exclusively by you? 17:25:54 <Alberth> in the extreme case you could split the grf in a gpl part and non-free part, but that may be too extreme 17:26:30 <George> > George: and I assume the code is exclusively by you? <- Yes 17:26:50 <George> too extreme :( 17:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, putting them in different places in the source code would be enough 17:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like sprites/gpl and sprites/nonfree directories 17:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> then someone who downloads the code can easily distinguish them 17:28:38 *** Scuddles [~notme@cm22.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 17:28:43 <planetmaker> that'd be pretty cool 17:29:59 <Alberth> the 'others' have left already? 17:30:52 <Alberth> tt-forums may still have an email address 17:33:17 <George> Eddi|zuHause: If someone would help me to do it ... currently we did not finish with TTRS ... And devzone is not the thing that is "userfriendly" for me. As I wrote several times, I need someone to help me with it. After I get familar with devzone with TTRS, the next step would be to move ECS to devzone. But I would need help to do it too. 17:33:25 <planetmaker> for some NewGRFs that's quite a fruitless endeavour as I know from my own experience - and that was 2 or 3 years ago 17:33:52 <planetmaker> George: I can only offer help :-) 17:34:01 <planetmaker> And there are several levels of how it can be used 17:34:15 <planetmaker> but all indeed require the use of a revision control system 17:34:17 <George> Alberth: No. But as I wrote, I NEVER requested them to provide a wider license 17:34:24 <planetmaker> which... is a certain entry barrier 17:35:29 <planetmaker> but one cannot use it without as that's the core of the thing 17:36:08 <Alberth> and it is a useful step, much like from writing at paper to writing using a computer 17:36:31 <Bilge> Why is permitting a train to reverse at a station a "difficulty setting"? 17:36:53 <Alberth> all settings influence difficulty 17:37:08 <Alberth> but mainly hysteric raisins 17:38:36 <Alberth> quite lilely that setting was added before advanced settings existed 17:39:05 <Alberth> or before 'config patches' existed, the previous name of advanced settings :p 17:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an original game setting 17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22544 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt vietnamese.txt): 17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: romanian - 5 changes by tonny 17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by myquartz 17:49:35 <Bilge> Can you change the "[far end]" instruction? 17:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, click on it 17:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can set a default value in the advanced settings 17:55:06 <Bilge> Thanks! :) 17:58:10 <andythenorth> hmm 17:58:35 <andythenorth> one of the good things about the baby.bath() method is that you can pass in a helper function which will be called when the method returns 17:59:04 <andythenorth> or, if you have a sensible framework, you can pass in an object name and rely on the object's default methods to sort it out 17:59:12 <andythenorth> so in this case I can pass "Wife" 17:59:23 <andythenorth> if the object has no methods it might raise an objection 17:59:33 <andythenorth> which is what happens if I pass "self.Brother" 17:59:50 <andythenorth> if I just pass "teddyBear" the error passes silently 18:00:07 <andythenorth> until the baby process timesout and raises to the main thread 18:00:07 <Rubidium> ghehe... do I hear a 'main' and 'non-free' repository for bananas? Where 'main' is always compiled from source, i.e. the source is uploaded? 18:00:24 <andythenorth> oh - you concluded that too? 18:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, you're mixing two different argumentations :p 18:00:40 <andythenorth> along with automatically adding new action 14 to old grfs by recompiling them? 18:01:58 <Terkhen> I don't think you can do that to newgrfs with certain licenses, even if it is done automatically 18:02:13 <andythenorth> meh 18:02:24 <andythenorth> and no-one laughed at my baby jokes :P 18:02:31 * andythenorth will have a beer 18:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: too few people with a baby (in the same development stage) around 18:03:42 <andythenorth> belugas would have laughed :| 18:04:03 * andythenorth is about to make severely hypocritical argument and expects to be shot down twice 18:04:15 * andythenorth uses original TTD graphics 18:04:23 <andythenorth> and one of my favourite sets is canset 18:04:38 <andythenorth> but still I think openttd should insist on gpl or similar for content 18:05:00 <andythenorth> (if distributing, not checking when loaded or anything silly like that) 18:05:05 <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse you're using the DOS graphics like I am, right? 18:05:11 <andythenorth> windows :P 18:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nope, you'll drown in arguments whether X license is "free enough" 18:05:28 <andythenorth> why? 18:05:33 <andythenorth> openttd doesn't drown in those 18:05:58 <andythenorth> I miss what's even controversial about this 18:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> is CC-BY-NC "free enough"? 18:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> is CC-BY-ND "free enough"? 18:06:17 * Prof_Frink is currently playing a TempSet game for maximum oldschoolness 18:06:18 <andythenorth> the game is GPL. Those making content from the game benefit from the work of hundreds of others 18:06:24 <andythenorth> why do they get a free pass? 18:06:35 <Terkhen> andythenorth: you might want to check discussions about this same issue in the package systems of many linux distributions 18:06:35 <andythenorth> from / for /s 18:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so any program that runs on windows must be under the windows license? 18:07:06 * andythenorth expects to get shot down :P 18:07:14 <andythenorth> I just can't get it 18:07:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: NC would be debatable in my eyes, ND I wouldn't consider free at all (both in the context of OpenTTD) 18:07:31 <andythenorth> I don't understand the attitude of not using GPL, no matter how much I try 18:07:54 <Rubidium> it does not imply that ND/NC content should be banned at all cost though 18:08:05 <andythenorth> to me it's quite binary, either you're making software to sell (for a living or beer money), or you make software for free 18:08:10 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 18:08:18 <andythenorth> if you make software for free, it should be free, not some half-assed crap 18:08:30 <Terkhen> for a content system IMO it is better to have some stuff with a restricted license than to not have it at all 18:08:35 <andythenorth> why? 18:08:39 <andythenorth> it's parasitic imo 18:08:43 <andythenorth> those people are parasites 18:08:43 <Terkhen> because having stuff is better than not having stuff :P 18:08:58 <andythenorth> some parasites are beneficial :P 18:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you are drawing things too black and white 18:09:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: NC is there to prevent others from making money of your work, which is usually more interesting for arty stuff (graphics, music, etc) 18:09:12 <Prof_Frink> Those are called symbiotes. 18:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause> GPL isn't the "ultimate freedom" either 18:09:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I often do :P 18:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it has also quite heavy restrictions 18:09:25 * andythenorth requests a 2 colour palette 18:09:31 <Rubidium> as those are easier to use by commercial entities 18:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> CC-BY is "much free-er" in most aspects than GPL 18:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or even CC-BY-SA 18:10:40 <andythenorth> so is this a general "yes", general "no" or general "we don't want to face the arguments" ? 18:11:17 <Terkhen> new sets with licenses that don't allow modification are becoming more and more rare, we should focus on that instead of worrying about old sets 18:11:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a "general no" to bananas license restrictions 18:11:28 <Terkhen> meanwhile, it is nice to have the old sets around too 18:11:35 <Terkhen> ^me too 18:11:39 <Rubidium> andythenorth: d) we'd be hypocritical to not allow anything that is non-free-ish 18:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> because there is no sane argument for "yes" that couldn't be torn apart 18:11:59 <andythenorth> Rubidium: because...? 18:12:04 <Rubidium> OpenSFX 18:12:26 <Rubidium> it's license can't be considered particularly "free" 18:13:21 <Bilge> I like that people are prepared to pay full bus fare as long as they are delivered to their destination within a month 18:13:26 <Rubidium> it falls in the CC-BY-NC category 18:14:31 <Rubidium> i.e. no commercial distribution 18:14:43 * andythenorth ponders adding a social factor 18:15:17 <andythenorth> OT: google does / did improve rank for pages made with semantically valid html 18:15:23 <andythenorth> that's a technical and political decision by goole 18:15:27 <andythenorth> google /s 18:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if i would order licenses by "free-ness" i'd say "public domain" [not really a license], CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, GPL, CC-BY-ND, CC-BY-NC. 18:15:50 <andythenorth> means there's lots of spam blogs with standards-compliant markup :P 18:16:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: don't discuss PD with MB 18:16:42 <andythenorth> in his view, it's not free at all 18:16:51 <andythenorth> depending on legal jurisdiction 18:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (that last one is probably more a view whether "free-beer-ness" is more important than "free-speech-ness", though) 18:17:21 *** sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 18:17:24 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:52 <andythenorth> my criteria are simple: (1) can it be distributed via bananas (2) can it be be modified and redistributed (in our case for maintenance purposes, but there's obviously no limit on why) 18:18:35 <andythenorth> my stuff is GPL for a third reason, can other people learn / copy from it easily for their sets, but that's non-essential 18:19:16 <andythenorth> (1) should be covered by bananas current ToS anyway 18:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> bananas has absolutely no business enforcing (2) 18:20:16 <andythenorth> probably not 18:22:13 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:22:38 *** ar3k [~ident@ebr154.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 18:22:39 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw 18:26:13 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: WTFPL is probably the closest legally agreed form of PD 18:26:40 <andythenorth> which wiki is best place to start an article on desirable newgrf standards? 18:26:52 <andythenorth> *desirable* being the significant word 18:27:06 <andythenorth> openttd wiki? devzone? ttdp wiki? 18:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the grf-wiki's tutorial section? 18:27:38 <andythenorth> maybe 18:27:48 <andythenorth> I wonder if that wiki needs to be deprecated... 18:28:05 <Alberth> ttdp due to its home of newgrfs, or devzone for its neutrality 18:28:09 <andythenorth> increasingly I think devzone might be the key place for ottd newgrf development 18:28:32 <Rubidium> though it has openttd in its url 18:28:33 <andythenorth> I don't spend much time in the ottd wiki, and devzone is where to go for newgrf projects 18:28:52 * andythenorth is not bothered about neutrality 18:28:54 <Yexo> but almost every project on the devzone already has an open license 18:29:05 <Yexo> so the people who read it there already got the message 18:29:15 <andythenorth> true 18:29:22 <andythenorth> a forum sticky might be useful 18:29:49 <andythenorth> this would be more than just 60pixel red type saying 'use a good license' :) 18:30:12 * andythenorth votes ttdp or devzone 18:30:22 <andythenorth> ttdp is more likely to provoke...argument 18:30:48 <Terkhen> if you are going to get arguments you will get them no matter where you post it 18:30:55 * andythenorth doesn't mind arguments 18:31:00 <andythenorth> mostly 18:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> devzone might be more likely to be completely unknown to newcomers 18:31:06 <andythenorth> except from a few people 18:31:27 <andythenorth> another way of answering the question: where will newgrf spec be maintained? 18:31:29 <Terkhen> besides, ttdp is still the official place, until those talks about moving the specs to a unified wiki become something real 18:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> devzone isn't very google-friendly either 18:32:24 <andythenorth> where is nml spec maintained? 18:32:38 <Rubidium> nml.hg 18:32:43 <andythenorth> and nml docs? 18:32:49 <Rubidium> nml.hg 18:32:52 <andythenorth> he :) 18:33:11 <Terkhen> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html <-- devzone, but the nml specs do not contain everything in the newgrf specs 18:33:38 <andythenorth> which will be the recommended authoring language? nfo or nml? 18:33:48 <andythenorth> or do we sit on the fence :P 18:33:56 <Rubidium> maybe start a newgrf.org 18:34:10 <Rubidium> with nfo.newgrf.org for nfo specs 18:34:15 <Rubidium> nml.newgrf.org for nml specs 18:34:23 <Rubidium> dev.newgrf.org for development stuff 18:34:23 <andythenorth> the domain appears to be available 18:34:38 <Rubidium> crawler.newgrf.org for a crawler/bananas kind of thing 18:34:51 * andythenorth can't tell when Rubidium is serious / satirical :P 18:35:17 <planetmaker> it might be politically the right thing - as stupid as it is 18:35:25 <Terkhen> nml is still not feature complete 18:35:38 <andythenorth> someone got an account with a domain provider? 18:35:52 <peter1138> orudge :p 18:35:53 <andythenorth> mine are all work related and the paperwork is a hassle :P 18:35:54 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I think Olivia's father does 18:36:03 <peter1138> (i do too) 18:36:05 <andythenorth> I'll happily pay hosting 18:36:13 <andythenorth> and renewal 18:36:21 <Terkhen> you should give the matter more thought before jumping on it :P 18:36:32 <andythenorth> that's not how I got to be as rich and famous as I am :P 18:36:47 * andythenorth has acres of pointless domains 18:36:58 <andythenorth> and is neither rich nor famous 18:37:25 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-148-9.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 18:37:30 <andythenorth> if someone buys that, I'll paypal the cost 18:37:51 <andythenorth> meanwhile, I wanted to start a page on what we think makes a nice newgrf 18:37:51 <planetmaker> just do it, if you like ;-) 18:38:52 <andythenorth> I could put a page on my site, but it's not very editable by others (unless you are aware of the security holes in the framework) 18:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> was that a challenge? :p 18:40:19 <andythenorth> I hope not 18:41:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: do you need another VM? :-P 18:41:22 <andythenorth> he :) 18:43:34 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-7-136.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:44:39 <Rubidium> oh... I forgot tools.newgrf.org 18:45:06 <Rubidium> with grfcodec/nforenum, grfmaker, m4nfo (if it ever were released), ... 18:46:50 <Rubidium> but I really think it'd be a good way to unite the different newgrf related things 18:46:58 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=52732 18:47:10 <Terkhen> although I like Rubidium's idea :) 18:47:26 <planetmaker> yes. It's politically sane 18:47:41 <planetmaker> and would give also control to more than one person over the newgrf wiki 18:49:23 <Rubidium> and I guess Owen is willing to pay the domain costs from OpenTTD's donations 18:50:05 <planetmaker> should be feasible 18:50:14 <planetmaker> and affordable 18:50:25 <andythenorth> or I'll kick some money in for it 18:50:31 <andythenorth> I never donated to openttdcoop 18:50:36 <andythenorth> despite trying many times :P 18:50:51 <Rubidium> though it would be purely for NewGRF things I'd say 18:51:37 <Rubidium> and the specs would be separate wiki instances; not sure whether there should be general wiki for non-spec stuff though (e.g. the many pages about ECS in the ttdp wiki) 18:52:15 <planetmaker> that doesn't make sense in the newgrf wiki 18:52:26 <planetmaker> that IMHO should move to the general openttd wiki 18:53:47 <Rubidium> though, maybe dev.newgrf.org/ecs/wiki, or newgrf.org/ecs/wiki, or something along that line would be fine as well 18:55:20 <peter1138> newgrf.org/blah 18:55:27 <peter1138> rather than blah.newgrf.org 18:55:34 <peter1138> if possible 18:55:41 <peter1138> maybe 18:56:58 <Rubidium> for what reasons? 18:57:47 <andythenorth> subdomains seem to be out of fashion 18:57:50 <andythenorth> can't remember why 18:57:58 <andythenorth> probably a google related reason :P 18:58:23 <andythenorth> meanwhile, does anyone want to kick at these while I eat / rescue my wife from a non-sleeping baby? 18:58:23 <andythenorth> http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Recommended_Standards 18:58:44 <Alberth> difference between . and / is too complicated for the general public :p 19:00:02 *** sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:01:42 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:02:45 <andythenorth> what is the thinking currently on disabling default vehicles? 19:02:59 <andythenorth> (if you are authoring a vehicle newgrf) 19:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> what? 19:06:44 <andythenorth> should a train set disable default trains? 19:07:37 <andythenorth> etc. 19:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on whether you provide a complete all-purpose set 19:07:59 <andythenorth> ok 19:08:44 <andythenorth> there's a grf that re-enables them? 19:08:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. sort of 19:09:26 <andythenorth> ok 19:09:40 *** Chris_Booth_ [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:09:40 <andythenorth> I've added all I can think of to that wiki page ^^ 19:09:47 <andythenorth> it's not exactly tablets of stone :P 19:10:09 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:10:17 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 19:12:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your forum suggestion wrt grf-crawler and bananas makes sense 19:18:48 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-005-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 19:19:50 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-005-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:27:06 <Terkhen> :D 19:46:36 <orudge> newgrf.org, eh 19:46:39 <orudge> we could do that 19:49:02 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 19:51:28 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 19:52:43 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 19:57:44 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:59:58 <Bilge> How are you supposed to know what the best AI is to download 20:01:20 <Rubidium> How are we supposed to know what you think is "best" for an AI? 20:07:49 <Bilge> I forgot you're too robotic to be subjective :3 20:08:11 <Bilge> On that note, is it possible for ordinary humans to understand the signalling system? 20:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> we're totally subjective, alright. but why would you assume that would be in your interest? 20:09:08 <joho> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals 20:09:20 <Bilge> I thought someone might be followed the AI development and have an opinion on which one is the best to use 20:10:03 <Yexo> Bilge: I'm sure several people have on opinion on that 20:10:11 <Yexo> I'm also sure that if you ask 5 different people you'll get 5 different answers 20:10:20 <Yexo> in other words: each answer is useless for you 20:10:42 <planetmaker> Bilge: then read the NoAI subforum 20:10:46 <planetmaker> there are AI tests there 20:10:53 <Rubidium> There was a competition that showed that Rondje is the best 20:11:03 <planetmaker> one that NoCAB is best 20:11:07 <planetmaker> one that AIAI is best 20:11:12 <planetmaker> one that... AdmiralAI is best 20:11:21 <Rubidium> but undoubtedly if you're playing with it you'll get extremely annoyed by it 20:11:23 <planetmaker> ... half of them one one competition at least :-) 20:11:34 * Terkhen likes towncars 20:11:36 <planetmaker> s/one one/won one/ 20:12:00 * Eddi|zuHause recommends playing without any AI 20:12:32 <Rubidium> as Rondje is a parasite AI; it lets other AIs build routes and then starts competing with you for cargo on that exact route 20:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> someone should do a "Rondje om de kerk" fork and call it "Mit der Kirche ums Dorf" 20:14:57 <planetmaker> are you sure you translate it correctly, Eddi|zuHause ? 20:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> not word-by-word, but from how i understood it it's a similar meaning 20:15:55 <Rubidium> lol ;) 20:15:57 <planetmaker> not quite afaik 20:17:02 <Rubidium> "rondje om de kerk" is famous because of train drivers who didn't want to drive the same route every day, so losely it translates to driving "circles around the church" 20:17:06 <planetmaker> http://translate.google.de/#nl|de|rondje%20om%20de%20kerk%0A 20:18:28 <Rubidium> not that many routes in the NL are circular 20:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the german "mit der Kirche ums Dorf" means making something unnecessarily complicated (and arriving back where you started) 20:19:46 <Rubidium> that's something different 20:19:46 <Wolf01> 'night 20:19:50 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host146-235-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:19:51 <planetmaker> aha. 20:20:00 * planetmaker never heard that alleged proverb 20:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the opposite of that is "die Kirche im Dorf lassen" [slowing down the pace (of a discussion)] 20:22:57 <Rubidium> actually, I don't think there's a circular route in the NL at all 20:24:39 <planetmaker> good night 20:25:40 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker 20:32:06 <Sacro> can i change "build on slopes" in a running game? 20:32:21 <Sacro> it seems to be disabled :\ 20:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> did you try? 20:34:10 <frosch123> you can only in single player 20:34:34 <frosch123> multiplayer is not allowed, because that setting is exposed to newgrfs 20:35:13 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 20:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> someone should do a "screws up your game (do not use!)" grf :p 20:35:28 <Sacro> frosch123: oh right :\ 20:35:36 <andythenorth> hello DanMacK 20:35:37 <George> Does anybody know how to read several layers from PSD into PNG by a script? 20:35:46 <DanMacK> Hey Andy 20:35:57 <andythenorth> George: planetmaker figured that out recently using gimp 20:36:01 <andythenorth> with rules 20:36:03 <Yexo> George: planetmaker implemented that recently with gimp 20:36:12 <andythenorth> you could use a photoshop action to do it 20:36:13 <George> yes and no 20:36:31 <George> We had a large discussion with him today 20:36:49 <George> He found how to get it by layer number 20:37:06 <andythenorth> hmm 20:37:12 <George> but he does not know how to read them by layer name 20:37:29 <andythenorth> if it were possible, I could rethink my workflow for vehicle grfs 20:37:46 <Yexo> George: do you have an example psd file I could do a few tests with? 20:38:00 <George> andythenorth: photoshop action to do it <- how to run it from bat file? 20:38:04 <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... this download never ends... :( 20:38:08 <andythenorth> George: not sure 20:38:09 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-005-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:38:17 <andythenorth> on a mac photoshop can be scripted 20:38:35 <andythenorth> probably on other OS too 20:38:53 <George> Yexo: http://george.zernebok.net/temp/bat/Industries/ 20:39:30 <George> andythenorth: there are actions in photoshop, but where are scripts? 20:39:48 <George> I have Photoshop 7 - may be it is too old? 20:40:05 <welshdragon> in Linux, where do I put my openttd.cfg? 20:40:15 <welshdragon> I've forgotten ;/ 20:40:23 <George> andythenorth: if it were possible, I could rethink my workflow for vehicle grfs<- I suppose we were speaking about similar topic :) 20:40:26 <andythenorth> George: same version as me http://www.photoshopsupport.com/tutorials/jennifer/photoshop-scripts.html 20:40:33 <andythenorth> I haven't researched this idea at all yet 20:40:38 <welshdragon> (it's been 8 months since i last used Linux) 20:40:46 <andythenorth> but it would make cargo sprites etc much easier to output 20:41:45 <Rubidium> welshdragon: in the same place as on windows, i.e. where the readme says it should be 20:42:01 <George> andythenorth: I'll have a look 20:42:10 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: TTW - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 20:42:29 <welshdragon> yeah, I need to not be in root 20:43:38 <George> andythenorth: http://www.photoshopsupport.com/tutorials/jennifer/photoshop-scripts/open-script.gif - I do not see this menu in photoshop 7 20:44:09 <andythenorth> George: maybe this? http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=1536 20:44:34 <glx> welshdragon: ~/.openttd 20:45:31 <Terkhen> George: we have a working example on opengfx+ road vehicles, it uses GIMP and as you mentioned it only works with layer numbers 20:46:17 <Terkhen> layer names would be more interesting :) 20:46:33 <George> Terkhen: I had a large discussion with planetmaker today (last 3 hours). 20:46:34 <Rubidium> maybe there's some caveat, like layer names not being enforced to be unique or something similar? 20:46:54 <George> Rubidium: Yes, they are not unique 20:46:57 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5243.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:59 <Terkhen> ok, then you already know what I could tell you about the script :) 20:47:06 <George> but it is not a problem 20:47:32 <George> even photoshop actions pick up the first one with a name specified 20:47:43 <George> the same would be fine for a script too 20:51:01 <welshdragon> ~/.openttd doesn't exist :/ 20:51:51 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 20:52:35 <George> andythenorth: George: maybe this? http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=1536 <- downloaded and installed, but do not see such menu :( 20:53:34 <Bilge> I'm trying to create a server but it doesn't seem to be binding to my Internet IP - I've opened the port 3979 but nobody can connect because it seem to only be bound to my local IP :( 20:54:44 <welshdragon> cheers 20:54:50 <welshdragon> used mkdir 20:56:05 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.80.68] has joined #openttd 20:56:51 <George> andythenorth: If you would find a way to move data from layers by names from PSD to PNG with scripting - please let me know! 20:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: by default it binds to all incoming interfaces 20:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: unless you override that 20:57:31 <andythenorth> George: did you find the documentation with that scripting plugin? 20:57:44 <George> No 20:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: also you must add port forwarding in your router/modem 20:58:40 <andythenorth> George: there's a pdf manual with the mac version of the plugin 20:59:28 <andythenorth> George: http://portal.aauj.edu/portal_resources/downloads/multimedia/adobephotoshop7_scripting_guide.pdf 20:59:46 <andythenorth> it's not an ideal solution as it's mac / windows only 20:59:53 <andythenorth> a cross-platform solution would be better 21:01:05 <andythenorth> George: can you do it with a photoshop action? 21:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "homage (french for 'theft')" 21:01:09 <andythenorth> I might try that one time 21:01:12 <andythenorth> not today 21:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "revival (english for 'theft')" 21:01:28 <andythenorth> I already had an action for exporting pcx when they were needed 21:01:39 <Bilge> Eddi: I have port forwarded on my router 21:02:11 <josepr83> andythenorth: Is this what you are taiking about -> http://www.pretentiousname.com/ps_exportlayersfast/index.html 21:02:28 <andythenorth> something like that yes 21:03:06 <George> andythenorth: George: can you do it with a photoshop action? <- I can do an action that would assemble sprite from PSD and save it as PNG, but I would need an action for every sprite. Not a thing I want to do :( 21:03:20 <andythenorth> George: this is for industries? 21:03:28 <josepr83> I thought Fireworks could make a PNG homologous to the PSD in Photoshop. 21:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: both TCP and UDP? 21:05:46 <George> andythenorth: Yes 21:05:48 * andythenorth thinks that players should be able to pay to allow adding newgrf to a running game :P 21:06:04 <andythenorth> George: I considered automating psd->png for FIRS, I think it's way too hard 21:06:16 <Terkhen> Bilge: try http://canyouseeme.org/ 21:06:31 <andythenorth> I draw each building as one piece, then they have to be cut - well - as you know ;) 21:06:40 <andythenorth> so an action might never work 21:07:06 <andythenorth> on the other hand, vehicles are all to a template, so cargos are a good case for an action 21:07:16 <George> josepr83: Would it be possible to run script outside Photoshop? (it may be running in background) 21:07:34 * andythenorth -> bed 21:07:35 <andythenorth> good night 21:07:46 <George> or call Photoshop to run a script 21:07:50 <josepr83> I don't think so. The scripts were made to work via PS. 21:08:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 21:09:13 <George> I have to go to bad, Bye! 21:09:26 <josepr83> Happy going to 'bad'. 21:09:34 <josepr83> And this: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=111&platform=windows 21:10:04 *** tycoondemon2 [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:10:07 <Terkhen> good night George 21:18:50 *** josepr83 [~xenon128@117.204.80.68] has left #openttd [] 21:19:32 *** Amis [~Amis@5400EA0E.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: *pop*] 21:19:56 *** hgnmu128 [~xenon128@117.204.80.68] has joined #openttd 21:20:07 *** hgnmu128 [~xenon128@117.204.80.68] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 21:20:50 *** hgnmu128 [~xenon128@117.204.80.68] has joined #openttd 21:21:01 <Bilge> Why are my glasses normal now instead of shades? Can't you choose your glasses type? D: 21:21:24 <Bilge> Oh wait there it is 21:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> use ones with polarization filters 21:30:57 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-066-103-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31:51 *** hgnmu128 [~xenon128@117.204.80.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:58 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:48 <Terkhen> good night 21:53:00 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:13 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.80.68] has joined #openttd 21:54:51 <hgnmu128> clear 21:55:26 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.80.68] has left #openttd [] 21:58:25 *** Heidistein [~arjen@188.142.22.202] has joined #openttd 22:05:11 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:17 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db180b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 22:08:39 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 22:10:59 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:12 <Bilge> How do you password your company? 22:15:22 <Zuu> Click the button with a man in a hat in the menu bar 22:15:33 <Zuu> So that you show the company window 22:15:40 <Zuu> There you have a button to set password. 22:16:34 <Zuu> You may also set a default password in your openttd.cfg and you will no longer have to worry about remembering to set a password. 22:18:49 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-84-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:41 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:34:41 *** DDR [~DDR@d99-199-10-67.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 22:35:13 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.80.68] has joined #openttd 22:39:29 <Bilge> Oh yeah, but only when the game is started in multi 22:41:09 <Zuu> How would password protection make sense in single player? 22:43:22 <Cursarion^> no one messing with his game 22:43:47 <hgnmu128> ltr 22:43:54 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.80.68] has left #openttd [] 22:44:30 <Yexo> yes, only it's singleplayer, that means the savegame is on his computer, so nobody could mess with it anyway 22:50:37 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:05 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:03:34 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:04 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Partir, c'est mourir un peu.] 23:05:41 <Zuu> If he is on a shared computer, he should seek general solutions in his operating system. 23:06:00 <Sacro> Anyone built chillcore patchpack against 1.1? 23:10:15 <Bilge> I was just remarking that I hadn't noticed the button before because I mostly spent time in single player so didn't expect to find it there in multi 23:12:24 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 23:15:42 *** anythingffs [~Miranda@5ad93c65.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 23:16:44 <anythingffs> guys, i have a version conflict between my server and a map\scenario i want to run, is there a way to update the maps to the latest version? 23:16:57 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A1AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:16 <anythingffs> or do i have to find the 0.7 version that the map works with? 23:23:42 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:51 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 23:43:56 <anythingffs> why would a not be able to support multiplayer? 23:43:59 <anythingffs> map 23:44:10 *** anythingffs is now known as alba0andy 23:44:20 *** alba0andy is now known as alba-andy 23:44:43 <alba-andy> dbg: [net] The loading savegame was paused due to an error state. 23:44:44 <alba-andy> dbg: [net] The savegame cannot be used for multiplayer! 23:44:44 <alba-andy> dbg: [net] Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started! 23:47:13 <glx> missing newgrf maybe 23:48:35 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 23:48:39 <alba-andy> ah, ive edited the scenario to remove the extra grfs 23:50:05 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.84.115] has joined #openttd 23:51:16 <alba-andy> still nothing 23:51:31 <alba-andy> same error 23:52:44 * hgnmu128 wants to ask alba-andy what error it is, but waiting. 23:54:21 <Zuu> alba-andy: do you use the same OpenTTD for playing as well as for your server? 23:54:48 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:48 <Zuu> If not, the NewGRF problem could be likely to be the cause. 23:55:27 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.84.115] has left #openttd [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:32 <Zuu> Another problem is if you have built the scenario in a patched version of OpenTTD. 23:56:04 <Zuu> Btw, why version 0.7 and not the last stable (1.1)? 23:56:51 <alba-andy> im using 1.1 on the server but the map doesnt seem to support more than 0.7 23:57:40 <alba-andy> i tried opening it and resaving it in scenario editor (hoping that it would update the version) but the server still isnt having it 23:57:50 <alba-andy> same error that appears above 23:58:54 <Zuu> If a savegame from unpatched 0.7 where you have not modified the NewGRFs in-game does not work in 1.1, I would say that's a bug. 23:59:09 <Zuu> But you said something above about changing NewGRFs in the game?