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00:06:59 *** lordmwa [~lordmwa@95.147.169.241] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 00:13:59 <planetmaker> Terkhen: the remaining wiki pages have been bot-edited. What still might need checking if somewhere content wrt the TTDP wiki is missing. And the usual general review, of course. But everything which has not been looked at should now approx. follow the style 00:14:10 *** Bilge [~bilge@92.28.197.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:15:54 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:30:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A9CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:51 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-115-164.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:00 *** Intexon_ [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:14:18 *** fjb is now known as Guest4631 01:14:19 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFD4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:21:07 *** Guest4631 [~frank@p5DDFC936.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:57:27 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b0e8:be60:5054:524a] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:06:38 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.68] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 02:26:37 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-138-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:08 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-207-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:54:58 *** tim_ [~tim@ip70-185-114-15.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #openttd 03:56:09 *** tim_ [~tim@ip70-185-114-15.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:00 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 04:14:40 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 04:17:57 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [] 04:55:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B774BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:37 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7351D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:03:06 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:07:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 05:20:01 <andythenorth> Hola 05:24:11 *** Nite_Owl [~chatzilla@c-24-127-215-180.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 05:25:47 <Nite_Owl> Anyone about ?? 05:27:29 *** Nite_Owl [~chatzilla@c-24-127-215-180.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:32:06 <andythenorth> nobody ;) 05:40:34 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:40:51 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@pub212004071029.fx-hfc.datazug.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:55:50 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:16:34 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0f84fe.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:17:45 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:42:06 <planetmaker> moin 06:44:16 <fjb> Moin 06:48:23 * andythenorth was trying to write a new 'getting started' guide for newgrf: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/269/ 06:50:33 <planetmaker> sounds partially duplicate to the - also still draft - wiki page on newgrf recommended behaviour 06:50:52 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest4656 06:50:52 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:51:27 <planetmaker> I'd say: go for it. But possibly split it in at least two: the getting started and the newgrf development recommendations 06:51:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think the recommendation is a bit overwhelming for those entirely new 06:52:01 <andythenorth> I'd see it as information in stages... 06:52:10 <planetmaker> but it's virtually that by your list ;-) 06:52:24 <planetmaker> well, the name doesn't matter 06:53:41 * andythenorth thinks 06:54:21 <andythenorth> detailed pages might be: standards | tools | tutorials 06:54:28 <andythenorth> linked by a 'getting started' guide 06:55:13 <andythenorth> standards is more like a check-list 06:56:34 <andythenorth> like a launch list: http://launchlist.net/tour 06:56:43 *** Guest4656 [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:57:05 <andythenorth> http://lite.launchlist.net/ 06:59:13 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:02:01 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:05:08 <Terkhen> good morning 07:05:13 <Terkhen> planetmaker: great :) 07:09:32 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/AdditionalReferences <--- I wonder what was this page supposed to be 07:09:51 <planetmaker> that was a list of pages like the main page. Auto-generated 07:10:09 <Terkhen> should we remove it? 07:10:30 <planetmaker> I wondered 07:11:02 <planetmaker> yes, we should. These pages should work via categories 07:11:44 <planetmaker> That actually should probably now come up with a few meaningful categories for pages which make sense to be displayed in a common overview page each for that particular "topic" 07:11:45 <Terkhen> how do you remove a page? :P 07:11:51 <Terkhen> leaving it empty? 07:13:19 <planetmaker> deleted. I suppose you don't have a 'delete' button next to 'edit'? 07:13:33 <Terkhen> no 07:14:14 <planetmaker> then you'll need to ask orudge to also become administrator, I guess 07:14:19 <Terkhen> you should also write a post about newgrf specs being formatted and available again at the news thread :P 07:14:48 <planetmaker> I guess you're right. 07:15:46 <planetmaker> we should still review the pages the bot fixed that nothing got missing in the convert. The bot didn't remove anything but as we know sometimes really stuff got missing in the conversion, esp. with formulas in the page 07:16:06 <Terkhen> yes, I'm checking 07:16:29 <Terkhen> it seems that you forgot to add the s/</</g changes 07:16:42 <Terkhen> but mostly they look fine :) 07:17:15 <Terkhen> oh wait, this page was not edited by the bot :P 07:18:14 <planetmaker> hm... :-) 07:19:34 <Terkhen> there are a few broken tables because of internal links, nothing else :) 07:19:46 <planetmaker> in the bot-edited pages? 07:19:59 <planetmaker> hm... then I missed that before I fixed that 07:20:17 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Action7&diff=1255&oldid=1205 <--- you were testing with action 7, right? 07:20:33 <planetmaker> eventually I did that manually 07:21:00 <planetmaker> as the page got messed up and I didn't want to do a rollback-edit orgy and most was done correctly. Except ... some stuff with tables 07:21:26 <Terkhen> oh, ok :) 07:21:35 <planetmaker> and yes, there that bug was still present 07:22:52 <planetmaker> but... where is that messed up table? I don't see it 07:24:40 <Terkhen> I fixed it, check the diff I pasted 07:28:15 <planetmaker> he, right :-) 07:28:19 <planetmaker> I need more tea 07:28:24 <Terkhen> :P 07:36:53 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2_Towns <-- hm... with or without space? 07:36:57 <planetmaker> ^ Terkhen 07:37:19 <planetmaker> looks better with, actually 07:37:26 <planetmaker> but it's then the only one 07:39:57 <planetmaker> and... should we use Action0, Action1, VarAction2 (that's what I prefer) or Action 0, Action 1, VarAction 2? 07:44:18 <planetmaker> and... should we keep tasks 'done' in the TODO list? Seems a bit pointless to me 07:45:20 <planetmaker> hm.. but is psychologically good ;-) 07:46:21 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:58:39 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 08:02:30 <Terkhen> planetmaker: IMO without space 08:02:43 <Terkhen> otherwise it needs a lot of changes and people might be used to the old format 08:02:45 <Terkhen> bbl 08:02:54 <planetmaker> hm, I did it now with... but yes, maybe 08:03:31 *** Bilge [~bilge@92.28.197.104] has joined #openttd 08:05:00 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:06:33 *** Zarra [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 08:12:47 <Zarra> What's goin' on? 08:15:34 <Zarra> In 1.1.1 problem with AI! Not workin'... who know the solution??? 08:16:53 <JVassie_> *blink* 08:17:21 <Yexo> Zarra: how is it not working? 08:17:24 <Yexo> what message do you get? 08:17:40 <Yexo> did you follow the advise in the error message (if any)? 08:18:29 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-013-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:18:38 <Zarra> 1 min. 08:19:35 <Zarra> The program does not see a source of AI 08:19:48 <Yexo> did you download them via the online content system? 08:21:38 <Zarra> No. Cuz there's no content... :( 08:21:49 <Zarra> ooops... 08:21:53 <Yexo> so how did you download them? 08:22:11 <Yexo> if you downloaded any .tar.gz files, you need to extract them to .tar files 08:22:18 <Yexo> you might also be missing the AI libraries 08:23:05 <Zarra> I simply have not waited the response :( 08:24:41 <Zarra> Found them!!! Sorry to bother!!! Odessa - Ukraine = OUT! 08:24:47 *** Zarra [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [] 08:49:34 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-013-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 09:02:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:34 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:11:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19A51.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:37:03 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.201.240.189] has joined #openttd 09:37:46 * andythenorth is going to have tea 09:37:49 <andythenorth> but not a pony 09:37:52 <andythenorth> http://i-want-a-pony.com/ 09:38:01 <andythenorth> tea is more available than ponies 09:38:45 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:38:45 <peter1138> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13771099 09:38:46 <peter1138> heh 09:39:44 <andythenorth> indeedy 09:47:09 *** keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:55:00 <JVassie_> hai all 09:55:29 <Terkhen> hi JVassie_ 10:02:22 <JVassie_> how ya doing? 10:02:48 <Terkhen> fine, my project is finally working as it should :) 10:03:26 <JVassie_> woo \o/ 10:03:35 * JVassie_ is doing planning for his project 10:03:42 <JVassie_> (B)MSS 10:03:43 <JVassie_> :p 10:04:43 <Terkhen> :) 10:08:06 <JVassie_> unfortunately my lack of understanding how stations are coded 10:08:09 <JVassie_> (or can be coded) 10:08:22 <JVassie_> has meant me pixelating stuff into objects which can be broken down and reused 10:17:56 <JVassie_> a thought, not sure if you'd knwo the answer Terkhen 10:18:12 <JVassie_> is there anyway I can plan to support multiple tracksets, for non track tiles? 10:18:24 <JVassie_> ie use their 'underlay' but not the rails 10:19:05 <Terkhen> sorry, I have never touched stations or railtypes :/ 10:19:19 <Terkhen> the station pages are scary :P 10:19:57 <JVassie_> heheh :p 10:20:14 <JVassie_> Im hoping someone will write some more examples and/or tutorials in the appropriate places :D 10:20:19 <Terkhen> :) 10:20:26 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 10:20:36 <JVassie_> more NFO developers can only be a good thign I guess 10:20:38 <JVassie_> 8thing 10:20:41 <JVassie_> ** 10:21:09 <planetmaker> lobby for station specs included in NML, JVassie_ ;-) 10:21:20 <planetmaker> that probably would make it easier for the newgrf author ;-) 10:21:26 * JVassie_ lobbies 10:21:30 <planetmaker> :-P 10:21:39 <JVassie_> how easy is NML to setup on a Win7 box? 10:21:49 <JVassie_> for someoen with no Python experience 10:22:04 <planetmaker> easy. As it comes with an all-inclusive installer / exe download 10:22:08 <Yexo> you don't need python, there are windows binaries 10:22:11 <JVassie_> wow 10:22:14 <JVassie_> l'awesome 10:23:03 * JVassie_ wonders if he should do a new version of his grfmaker guide but for NML 10:23:12 <JVassie_> .doc with lots of explainign and pictures 10:23:22 <planetmaker> I'd very welcome that 10:23:31 <JVassie_> gotta learn NML then I guess :p 10:23:33 <Yexo> me too, although I'd prefer html with pictures 10:23:39 <planetmaker> tt-wiki now would be a good place. IMHO it s/should get an NML section anyway 10:23:40 <JVassie_> html is easier for me tbh 10:23:43 <Yexo> that way it could be included in the nml documentation 10:23:55 * JVassie_ wonders off to find NML .exe 10:23:57 <planetmaker> either way is fine 10:24:16 <planetmaker> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/LATEST/ 10:24:28 <JVassie_> ta 10:25:24 <JVassie_> :o 10:25:29 <JVassie_> no donotreadme included 10:26:10 <planetmaker> docs/index.html 10:26:16 <JVassie_> :P 10:26:44 <JVassie_> no docs folder in the win32 bundle 10:26:49 <JVassie_> no folders at all 10:27:09 <Yexo> docs here: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html 10:27:12 <planetmaker> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html 10:27:13 <JVassie_> thx :) 10:27:16 <JVassie_> haha 10:28:06 <JVassie_> is the .exe included an installer? 10:28:18 <planetmaker> George: I ran the bot on the list of pages you supplied me with. I did not check the result on every page though, only those where the diff looked suspicious. Most likely there will be some pages where it failed in one way or another to fix the tables completely 10:28:18 <JVassie_> guess not 10:28:19 <Yexo> no, it's the actual executable 10:28:22 <JVassie_> thought so 10:28:44 <planetmaker> George: but many of the translation pages seem to not exist. Thus they were not touched 10:28:57 <planetmaker> probably they're named slightly differently 10:29:13 <JVassie_> --version works 10:29:18 <JVassie_> so looks like in business 10:29:21 <JVassie_> \o/ 10:32:11 <JVassie_> the docs are much more in depth than i thought :D 10:32:38 <hgnmu128> I think he created NML himself by reading the docs. 10:32:52 <hgnmu128> *itself 10:34:22 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.201.240.189] has left #openttd [] 10:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "in the beginning was the docs" 10:35:11 <planetmaker> JVassie_: even though, there's still lots of room for improvement 10:35:17 <JVassie_> :) 10:35:33 <JVassie_> I was planning on working through a tutorial for coding a locomtive + coach 10:35:39 <JVassie_> similar to the grfmaker tutorial I did 10:35:45 <JVassie_> and then add more advanced topics 10:35:57 <JVassie_> like livery overrides, refitting, etc 10:36:03 <JVassie_> animation 10:36:09 <JVassie_> articulated 10:36:29 <JVassie_> planetmaker, which features work in NML so far, trains and? 10:36:32 <orudge> planetmaker: fancy running your bot on everything on http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Manual after "TrainRefitting"? :) 10:36:50 <Yexo> JVassie_: all vehicles, industries, airports (as far as they are supported by the spec) 10:36:59 <orudge> planetmaker: or would you desire a list, I guess, first 10:37:03 <JVassie_> thanks Yexo :) 10:37:12 *** JVassie_ is now known as JVassie 10:37:17 <planetmaker> orudge: yes, plain text list of page names as they appear in the URL 10:37:17 <Yexo> I think everything except stations and houses 10:37:24 <JVassie> Stations is what I want most :D 10:37:28 <planetmaker> will be no big problem 10:40:58 <orudge> planetmaker: does your bot handle these, by the way: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/281/ 10:41:05 <orudge> since they've come up quite a bit in the TTDPatch manual while I was doing it manually 10:42:56 <planetmaker> most. I remove(d) the +- stuff 10:43:03 <JVassie> One thing I've noticed thats missing in the docs is a quick guide on how to actually run NML to make a grf 10:43:04 <planetmaker> thus no tt style 10:43:06 <orudge> ah 10:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you do s/ / /g? 10:43:13 <planetmaker> but easy to change 10:43:19 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: not generally, they're usually redundant. 10:43:22 <planetmaker> that's what I do, Eddi|zuHause 10:43:28 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: e.g., people double-spacing things. 10:43:37 <orudge> at least in my experience 10:43:51 <orudge> planetmaker: if you could keep the <tt> style, I'd prefer that 10:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: but double spaces should be handled by the software itself? 10:44:07 <planetmaker> sure orudge 10:44:09 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: well, yes. I just like to tidy things up and remove them. :p 10:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: s/ +/ /g? 10:44:39 <orudge> that works, yes 10:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: imho better than suddenly having no space somewhere 10:45:34 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: yeah 10:45:42 <orudge> planetmaker: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/282/ I think that should be a fairly comprehensive list, for now 10:45:47 <orudge> inevitably there'll be more later ;) 10:46:37 <George> planetmaker: George: but many of the translation pages seem to not exist. Thus they were not touched <- ask orudge 10:46:45 <orudge> they've not been imported 10:46:48 <orudge> need to figure out how best to handle them 10:46:50 <Yexo> JVassie: "nmlc filename.nml" will create filename.grf 10:47:17 <orudge> planetmaker: you could also add Tutorials, PreSignalsTutorial, GRFTutorial and DrawingSprites to that list 10:49:17 <planetmaker> that's the literal page names, not sections with several pages, right? 10:50:31 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 10:50:46 <orudge> planetmaker: yep, unless I missed any. 10:51:28 <planetmaker> orudge: I remove lines with ''''' as start (the first line), too. Ok? 10:51:33 <planetmaker> it's redundant 10:51:36 <orudge> Yes 10:51:36 <orudge> that's fine 10:52:25 <planetmaker> and any {toc} and {maketoc} 10:54:06 <orudge> :) 10:55:25 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has left #openttd [] 10:56:39 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 10:58:01 *** [WOODY] [woodygfx@79.118.33.118] has joined #openttd 11:12:38 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 11:13:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.190.172] has joined #openttd 11:16:23 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:19:27 *** amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B107009.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:19:37 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6C285.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:19:53 <planetmaker> hm... the bot waits 9.6s between two subsequent page changes... 11:20:14 <orudge> Seems to be working, though :) 11:21:29 <Yexo> planetmaker: if you use the same python framework as I do, pass "-pt:0" as argument 11:25:39 <planetmaker> I do indeed 11:25:51 <planetmaker> that was an excellent tip, Yexo 11:26:59 <planetmaker> It's quite an easy-peasy framework to use for automatic wiki edits 11:27:05 <Yexo> yep :) 11:27:07 <planetmaker> could certainly also be abused as spam bot :-P 11:27:09 <orudge> heh 11:27:45 <Yexo> luckily the bot interface is not open for anonymous edits :) 11:27:55 <planetmaker> :-) 11:28:00 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:28:18 <planetmaker> thus it needs "only" a wrapper to register spam accounts ;-) 11:28:38 <orudge> well, hopefully, the challenge of having to register on the forums rather than the wiki will deter spammers 11:29:23 <orudge> hee, how colourful, this whole page has ended up <tt>d: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NewTownGrowthSwitchesdetails 11:29:24 <planetmaker> orudge: I just discovered that I might have accidentially replaced a <pre>in some instances by a one-space indentation.... it looks 95% the same, though 11:29:27 <Yexo> planetmaker: can normal accounts without the bot flag even use the api? 11:29:41 <orudge> planetmaker: ah, well, I'll be looking through everything slowly but surely anyway 11:29:49 <orudge> still have to transfer graphics over and ideally categorise pages 11:29:51 <planetmaker> Yexo: I think so. 11:29:53 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:31:11 <planetmaker> last pages are now updated, orudge 11:31:14 <planetmaker> list done ;-) 11:31:15 <orudge> ) 11:31:16 <orudge> :) 11:31:18 <orudge> thanks! 11:31:22 <planetmaker> no problem 11:31:28 <orudge> now mb really has nothing to complain about ;) 11:31:39 <planetmaker> :-) 11:31:42 <orudge> there may be a few other pages I've missed 11:31:45 <orudge> but I'll look through later and see 11:31:58 <planetmaker> and a few where the diff looked ok, but the result is ugly ;-) 11:32:04 <orudge> yeah 11:32:11 <planetmaker> I judge the commit / not commit by the diff I get 11:32:31 <planetmaker> though I presses 'y' in all but 3 cases or so 11:33:40 <Ammler> <tt> and <pre> needs to be there? 11:34:15 <Ammler> the page looks quite broken 11:34:21 <planetmaker> which? 11:34:30 <Ammler> orduge psted 11:34:36 <orudge> yes, something went a bit wrong there 11:34:37 <orudge> but I'll fix it later 11:34:42 <JVassie> <Yexo> JVassie: "nmlc filename.nml" will create filename.grf 11:34:44 <JVassie> thanks Yexo 11:34:47 <JVassie> :p 11:34:57 *** ashledombos_ [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:07 <JVassie> any old text editor will do i presume? 11:35:42 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 11:35:58 <Ammler> newers should do too 11:36:05 <JVassie> lol 11:36:20 <Ammler> :-) 11:36:39 <JVassie> context 11:36:43 <Chris_Booth> older text editors are more fun :P 11:38:15 <planetmaker> page fixed, Ammler 11:42:53 <planetmaker> orudge: Yexo : this is basically what I use wrt pywikipediabot's trunk (r9294) 11:43:09 <planetmaker> the fixttdp.py is a modified version of replace.py 11:43:22 <orudge> fair enough 11:43:30 <planetmaker> this: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?folder=bot/ 11:43:44 <planetmaker> :-P Meant to include the line above :-P 11:44:22 <orudge> oh hey, it must have just been Patch Tuesday 11:44:24 <orudge> 18 new Windows Updates 11:44:28 <planetmaker> :-) 11:49:19 <planetmaker> hm... this Hgnmu128 guy has no real clue what he writes about... and what NewGRF variables are and still 'fixes' the town radius information... 11:55:32 <Yexo> worse, it's blindly copied from http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html#_TownArray 11:55:53 <Yexo> which as discussed yesterday is copyrighted 11:56:51 <planetmaker> also that. But the info isn't helpful beyond what the var description said but even mis-leading or wrong 11:57:24 <Yexo> "The first zone is where station activity contributes to growth of the town," that might be wrong, the rest looks correct to me? 11:57:39 <planetmaker> and even from the source I don't understand quite what the difference between, say 0x94 and 0x95 is 11:58:00 <planetmaker> Yexo: to me it implies it's something which can be changed by the newgrf. Which is stupid at least 11:58:20 <planetmaker> These values are frequently updated by TTD, so changing them has little or no effect in the long run. 11:58:21 <Yexo> var 0x94 is the size of the first town zone, 0x95 the size of the second town zone 11:58:31 <planetmaker> hm, sure? 11:58:44 <Yexo> not really, but I thought something like that 11:58:52 <planetmaker> lampToU16(t->squared_town_zone_radius[0]); and GB(ClampToU16(t->squared_town_zone_radius[0]), 8, 8); 11:59:04 <planetmaker> thus it's something related to the same zone. But I don't know the difference 11:59:12 <planetmaker> that's 10 vars as opposed to the 5 I'd expect 11:59:14 <Yexo> and keep in mind that the info was copied from a page about the TTD savegame format. Changing values made perfect sense for that page (=binary changes in the savegame), but indeed not for a varaction2 page 11:59:31 <planetmaker> yes 11:59:46 <Yexo> planetmaker: oh, it's 5 word values 11:59:56 <Yexo> so var 94 is a word, var 95 is the high byte of var 94 12:00:06 <planetmaker> hm, yes. But why? 12:00:12 <Yexo> which again has to do with how ttdpatch works, in ttdpatch all 80+ vars are direct memory access 12:00:34 <Yexo> you can read var 94 as double-word, shift right 16 bits and you have var 96 12:00:48 <Yexo> in openttd that obviously doesn't work, but it's emulated for the high bits 12:00:57 <Yexo> so you can read just var 95 (=high word of var 94) 12:01:35 <planetmaker> he... I wonder whether those vars need special mentioning actually. Just the word ones are enough 12:01:42 <Yexo> yes 12:01:59 <Yexo> only 94, 96, 98, 9A and 9C should be used, at least for new newgrfs 12:02:02 <Yexo> if they need those at all 12:02:03 <andythenorth> it's not clear what town radii do anyway - I only know because frosch explained me 12:02:09 <andythenorth> I read src and am still not much wiser 12:02:14 <andythenorth> picture = 1k words? 12:02:27 <Yexo> I know approximately what they do, but I have no idea about the values of those vars 12:02:41 <andythenorth> I wouldn't be able to write newgrf using those values 12:02:49 <andythenorth> if I could, it would be used in FIRS already :P 12:03:06 <Yexo> you could check the newgrf debug gui in openttd to see what the values are 12:03:12 <Yexo> hmm, if those vars are shown there 12:03:35 <andythenorth> only if you have a town newgrf active I guess 12:03:37 <andythenorth> if at all 12:05:16 <Yexo> if you have a house newgrf active you can see those values 12:05:28 <planetmaker> 95 + 2x? 12:05:34 <Yexo> town with size 566: values are 0x40, 0, 4, 0, 0 12:05:40 <Yexo> planetmaker: 94, not 95 12:05:46 <planetmaker> yes 12:05:49 <planetmaker> ok :-) 12:06:07 <andythenorth> clear as mud :P 12:06:23 <Yexo> hmm, other town, size 730, values: 0x31, 0, 4, 0, 0 12:07:01 <Yexo> town with 2115 inhabitants: 0x51, 0x24, 0x19, 0x10, 0x09 12:07:16 <planetmaker> @calc 92/4 12:07:16 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 23 12:07:59 <Yexo> planetmaker: at any rate I'd revert those changes by hgnmu128 12:08:23 <planetmaker> yes, I'm thinking of just editing it. Or do you mean rollback? 12:08:54 <Yexo> that stuff is copyrighted, so if it's not too much work I'd rollback and write your own description 12:12:45 <peter1138> hmm? 12:13:31 <peter1138> pom te pom 12:13:39 <orudge> pomme de terre 12:13:54 <JVassie> planetmaker, isnt FF a valdi language ID for any language? 12:13:57 <JVassie> *valid 12:14:43 <planetmaker> JVassie: it's the default language 7F and FF 12:14:56 <planetmaker> each language has two IDs: value and value + 0x80 12:15:02 <JVassie> Im just working through a language file 12:15:08 <JVassie> and FF isnt in the list of IDs is all 12:15:16 <planetmaker> thus valid language IDs are 0x00 ... 0x7F 12:15:24 <planetmaker> 0x7F is default and thus also unavailable 12:15:44 <JVassie> ill stick with 0x01 then i guess 12:16:14 <Yexo> JVassie: what do you need it for? 12:16:27 <Yexo> if you don't have any translations, you should only use 7F / FF 12:16:40 <JVassie> 0xFF it is then 12:16:49 <JVassie> its my lang file called default.lng 12:17:18 <JVassie> it should use the same strign in every language 12:17:20 <JVassie> *string 12:18:11 <Yexo> oh, for an nml language file, use 0x01 there :) 12:18:38 <JVassie> gotcha :) 12:19:17 <JVassie> might have my first NML-made grf shortly :D 12:20:29 <Terkhen> JVassie: I did a nml syntax highlighter for Notepad++; now it must be completely out of date but if you are interested it is here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/24 12:20:49 <JVassie> I use ConTEXT normally, but thanks :D 12:21:15 <JVassie> hmm does the .nml file need to be in the same folder as nmlc.exe? 12:21:23 <JVassie> or can it be in a subfolder? 12:22:03 <Yexo> it can be anywhere 12:22:15 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b13d:84cd:de62:cd08] has joined #openttd 12:22:18 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:23:20 <planetmaker> Yexo: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2_Towns 12:23:31 <Ammler> Terkhen: maybe could be added to nml repo as contrib 12:23:44 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-013-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 12:24:20 <Terkhen> Ammler: that would mean that someone will maintain it :P 12:24:27 <Ammler> exactly :-P 12:24:31 <Yexo> planetmaker: wow. I still don't see how that would be useful, but at least it's complete :) 12:24:46 <planetmaker> I don't either. But I found it interesting ;-) 12:24:56 <planetmaker> And for things like TAI it might indeed be interesting 12:24:59 <Terkhen> I created it copying the tokens by hand myself, and I don't code nml in windows anymore 12:26:21 <planetmaker> Yexo: what was new to me is that actually at _every_ town size there's at least one town zone which is not available 12:26:45 <Yexo> that is new to me too 12:27:01 <planetmaker> hm... not true. For 52 houses... there are all around ;-) 12:27:17 <planetmaker> but that possibly up to 55 ;-) 12:27:17 <Terkhen> planetmaker: really nice :) 12:27:51 <Ammler> Terkhen: maybe you make one for kate :-) 12:27:59 * Terkhen only uses geany now 12:28:16 <Ammler> and there you have it? 12:28:19 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:19 <Terkhen> no :P 12:29:05 <welshdragon> rcon psswd 'setting network.server_name' fails while running the game 12:29:49 <Terkhen> it seems to use scintilla lexers, I don't know what are those 12:29:51 <planetmaker> try without "network." 12:30:08 <Terkhen> but at least it seems more widely used than notepad++'s own format 12:30:29 <welshdragon> Error: Command not found, planetmaker 12:31:20 <planetmaker> s/setting/set 12:31:23 <Terkhen> although... notepad++ is listed as supported 12:32:14 <welshdragon> Error: Command not found, planetmaker 12:32:17 <welshdragon> :P 12:32:46 <planetmaker> welshdragon: please read the wiki page on how to use rcon. You probably also miss " somewhere 12:33:30 <welshdragon> planetmaker, it's ok, I'll edit the config :) 12:33:43 <planetmaker> that won't help you ingame a single bit 12:34:05 <planetmaker> nor for any existing map or scenario 12:34:19 <JVassie> nmlc: default language file "lang\english.lng" doesn't exist 12:35:03 <planetmaker> JVassie: then... how's your file called? :-) 12:35:18 <planetmaker> I *think* it needs to be indeed english.lng 12:35:35 <Yexo> there is a command-line flag to use another name for the default language 12:35:46 <planetmaker> but that's tedious in the long run ;-) 12:35:50 <JVassie> well, my nml file is in a folder called Project1, within that folder is a subfolder called lang, in which tere are two files (both identical) called default.lng and english.lng 12:36:16 <planetmaker> and where do you call nmlc? 12:36:46 <JVassie> C:\Games\Tt\NML is the folder nmlc.exe is in 12:36:57 <JVassie> and im using the command nmlc Project1/BB27000.nml 12:37:26 <planetmaker> JVassie: you need to go into Project1 dir 12:37:28 <Yexo> JVassie: better do "cd Project1" first 12:37:29 <planetmaker> and then call nmlc 12:37:38 <Yexo> than do "../nmlc BB27000.nml" 12:37:46 <JVassie> ah 12:37:48 <JVassie> :p 12:38:02 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:39:11 <JVassie> it doesnt like ../ 12:39:24 <JVassie> but no matter 12:39:26 <Yexo> oh, try ..\ instead 12:39:32 <JVassie> i copied the files to the main NML directory 12:39:36 <JVassie> and it works 12:39:41 <JVassie> well until it gets to my syntax error(s) 12:39:50 <Yexo> yes, but that breaks as soon as you start your second project 12:39:57 <Yexo> as both will try to use the same lang/ directory 12:39:57 <Ammler> wouldn't adding nml path to %path% suiffice? 12:39:58 <JVassie> good point 12:40:12 <Yexo> Ammler: yes, but in general that's harder than using ..\ 12:40:23 <JVassie> <Yexo> oh, try ..\ instead 12:40:25 <JVassie> worked fine :) 12:40:30 <JVassie> same syntax error shown 12:40:39 <JVassie> I guess weight doesnt need a 't' 12:41:17 <planetmaker> ? 12:42:16 <JVassie> Syntax error, unexpected token "t" 12:42:25 <JVassie> on the line where id set the property 12:42:28 <JVassie> weight: 90 t 12:42:33 <JVassie> should it be 90t? 12:42:36 <JVassie> or just 90? 12:42:40 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:42:52 <planetmaker> 90t 12:42:56 <JVassie> gotcha 12:42:57 <planetmaker> without space 12:43:03 <JVassie> same idea with 30years and not 30 years i presume 12:43:04 <planetmaker> units must follow their numbers immediately 12:43:23 <planetmaker> yes 12:43:26 <planetmaker> every unit 12:43:27 <Yexo> oh? 12:43:32 <Yexo> hmm, didn't even know about that 12:43:42 <JVassie> heh 12:43:46 <JVassie> next 'issue' 12:43:51 <JVassie> settign tractive effort 12:44:03 <Yexo> <planetmaker> units must follow their numbers immediately <- actually that's not true 12:44:09 <JVassie> i presume tractive_effort_coefficient isnt for this purpose as it has a range of 0..1 12:44:17 <planetmaker> hm... maybe it's then tons instead of t 12:44:43 <Yexo> both "ton" and "tons" are valid 12:44:52 <planetmaker> but not t ;-) 12:44:54 <planetmaker> ok :-) 12:44:55 <JVassie> tons doesnt work 12:45:00 <JVassie> just tested 12:45:01 <JVassie> ton does 12:45:11 <Yexo> strange, it should 12:45:19 <JVassie> i get an invalid token s if i put tons 12:45:29 <JVassie> and it doesnt like years 12:45:29 <JVassie> :p 12:45:45 <JVassie> easiest to skip the units alltogrther for these? :D 12:45:51 <JVassie> *altogether 12:45:52 <planetmaker> leave out the years... if a var is called availability_years no point to add a unit 12:46:09 <JVassie> and regardign TE? 12:46:12 <planetmaker> not all properties have units. coefficients intrinsically cannot have, years, ... 12:46:25 <planetmaker> and TE is physically a value between 0 and 1 12:46:30 <planetmaker> Thus that's how NML handles it 12:46:36 <JVassie> hmm 12:46:43 <planetmaker> forget NFO values. They're... arbitrary at best 12:46:47 <JVassie> flipping it on its head 12:46:54 <JVassie> how would i set a max TE of 300 kN then? 12:46:54 <Yexo> JVassie: "years" nor "year" is a valid unit 12:47:03 <Yexo> "tons" should work, but doesn't, that's a bug in nml 12:47:12 <JVassie> gotcha 12:48:32 <Yexo> the "tons" issue is fixed in r1405 12:48:37 <planetmaker> JVassie: TE is weight [tons] * 10 * TE_coeff 12:48:50 <planetmaker> just simple physics 12:48:56 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:48:58 <JVassie> Im no physician :p 12:49:00 <planetmaker> and NFO also only knows the TE_coeff 12:49:03 <JVassie> thanks for explaining though 12:49:09 <JVassie> im used to grfmaker 12:49:15 <JVassie> which does that calc for you 12:49:24 <JVassie> perhaps addition for future NMl version? 12:50:03 <planetmaker> which calc? 12:50:10 <JVassie> TE is weight [tons] * 10 * TE_coeff 12:50:24 <JVassie> you are allowed in grfmaker to input a TE value, not the coefficient 12:50:33 <JVassie> it calculates the coefficient for you 12:50:38 <planetmaker> are you sure it's labelled correctly there? 12:50:39 <JVassie> for example in this case 12:50:42 <JVassie> yeah 12:50:48 <JVassie> it willingly takes 300 as an input 12:50:51 <JVassie> and it works ingame 12:51:37 <JVassie> for example in my case, with weight 90 tons, and aiming for a TE of 300, the coefficient is 0.033333 etc 12:52:09 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:52:12 <planetmaker> rather 0.333 12:52:16 <planetmaker> factor 10 difference 12:53:05 <planetmaker> @calc 90*1000* 10 / 300000 12:53:05 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 3 12:53:40 <JVassie> 0.333 yeah 12:54:26 <JVassie> now I have to sort out my .png not having a palette 12:54:39 <planetmaker> :-) 12:54:46 <JVassie> there an easy way to add one in GIMP? 12:55:01 <planetmaker> yes and no 12:55:35 <glx> adding the palette is easy, but usually your colors will be wrong :) 12:55:56 <planetmaker> http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-concepts-palettes.html 12:56:01 <JVassie> ta 12:57:08 <Ammler> there are ttd palettes for gimp on the devzone 12:58:00 <Terkhen> the scintilla lexers seem to be compiled with the program, so not really an option :) 12:58:01 <JVassie> theres links to them in the NML doc 12:58:18 <JVassie> I presume the ttd palettes are indexed palettes 12:58:21 <JVassie> ? 12:58:32 <Terkhen> JVassie: yes 12:58:35 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:59:03 * JVassie cant fidn the button to even open the dialog.. 12:59:17 <JVassie> nvm 13:00:30 <JVassie> *sigh* this is painful :x 13:01:26 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:01:33 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 13:02:03 <planetmaker> JVassie: window -> dockable dialoges -> colour palette 13:02:25 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 13:02:27 <JVassie> Colourmap or Palettes? 13:02:37 <planetmaker> palettes 13:03:34 <JVassie> now to import the .gpl? 13:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you take a palette without magic colours 13:04:16 <planetmaker> oh, hm... 13:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or the conversion may do weird stuff 13:04:40 <planetmaker> well: different: image -> mode -> indexed 13:05:40 <planetmaker> use own palette -> (choose one) -> open palette selction menu. right click bottom of that window -> import palette 13:06:29 <JVassie> I have no import palette option :x 13:08:30 <JVassie> oh i got it 13:11:24 <JVassie> in the palette selection window I have the dos palette imported 13:11:40 <JVassie> but it doesnt come up in the list on the indexed conversion window 13:14:16 <JVassie> nvm fixed 13:14:34 <JVassie> colours dotn look screwed 13:14:36 <JVassie> *dont 13:15:20 <JVassie> *sigh* 13:15:29 <JVassie> now NML think the palette doesnt contain 256 entries :p 13:15:38 <JVassie> i unchecked the 'dotn remove unsused colours' 13:15:44 <JVassie> oh 13:15:59 <planetmaker> JVassie: use the ttdviewer to check for animated colours where they shouldn't be 13:16:11 <planetmaker> you find it also on the bundles server 13:16:14 <planetmaker> on the devzone 13:16:21 <planetmaker> it's a nice sweet java app for that 13:17:03 <andythenorth> wrong lighting strikes again :( http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/evesham.png 13:17:12 <JVassie> lol 13:17:22 <andythenorth> JVassie: sorry just noticed that :| 13:17:31 <andythenorth> 'wrong' is possibly subjective 13:17:44 <JVassie> which bit particularly? 13:17:51 <andythenorth> the roofs stand out 13:18:14 <JVassie> light comes from top right, no? 13:18:21 <andythenorth> bottom right, about 4.30pm 13:18:22 <JVassie> well, 4:30PM as I recall xD 13:18:46 * andythenorth is annoyed at self for not noticing earlier 13:18:52 <andythenorth> and is now on a mission to help other artists :P 13:19:02 <JVassie> how would you change the shading then? 13:19:05 <JVassie> hehe 13:19:10 <andythenorth> about 1 year ago I told Irwe something like "oh Simon Foster clearly made a mistake in this sprite" :P 13:19:13 <andythenorth> meh 13:19:22 <andythenorth> JVassie: darken the rear of the roof, lighten the front 13:19:42 <JVassie> read meaning top left of it, front meaning bottom right? 13:19:45 <JVassie> in the \ view 13:19:50 <JVassie> *rear 13:19:56 <andythenorth> basically this house is a very good guide: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=145500 13:20:06 <andythenorth> it makes the correct shading quite clear 13:20:18 <andythenorth> it was very stupid of me to tell Irwe that Simon Foster had drawn it wrong :P 13:20:24 <JVassie> :P 13:20:30 <JVassie> in this case though 13:20:43 <welshdragon> can I load a scenario in a VPS? 13:20:53 <JVassie> it would look weird if the roof went from ligth to dark, then light to dark again when put next to another canopy 13:20:55 <welshdragon> (Dedicated Server) 13:20:56 <planetmaker> Yexo: the town index... in OpenTTD it's rather word-sized than byte-sized, right? 13:20:57 <JVassie> *light 13:21:18 <Ammler> welshdragon: if in doubt, just rename the sencario to .sav 13:21:24 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes 13:21:34 <planetmaker> then that needs fixing, too :-) 13:21:37 <planetmaker> I'm on it 13:21:40 <Yexo> that's not so easy 13:21:41 <Ammler> afaik, loading doesn't care about extensions anymore 13:21:57 <Yexo> as var 81 is not the high byte of var 80 in that case 13:22:01 <Yexo> (is it 80?) 13:22:23 <JVassie> andythenorth: wouldnt you say? 13:23:05 <andythenorth> JVassie: ?? :) 13:23:07 <Ammler> welshdragon: also try first then ask :-P 13:23:10 <JVassie> <JVassie> it would look weird if the roof went from ligth to dark, then light to dark again when put next to another canopy 13:23:28 <JVassie> unless i misunderstand you 13:24:42 <Belugas> hello 13:25:00 <planetmaker> Yexo: you mean me wrt to town index about the 'not easy'? 13:25:10 <planetmaker> hm... 13:25:11 <Yexo> yes 13:25:30 <Yexo> it needs clarification that 80+x vars are not direct memory accesses in openttd 13:25:34 <planetmaker> well. That var simply returns the index. Which is a pool index which is 0 ... 64000 13:25:38 <andythenorth> JVassie: I was trying to retouch it for you, but it's taking a bit long :) 13:26:01 <planetmaker> what else does the newgrf author need? 13:26:20 <Yexo> nothing, I just doubt a newgrf author needs that at all 13:26:36 <JVassie> andythenorth: perhaps a simple outline in paint instead of a retouch? just so i can understand the concept clearly perhaps? :) 13:28:24 <andythenorth> ok 13:30:25 <JVassie> andythenorth: http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/shadingexample.png like that? 13:30:32 <andythenorth> yes 13:30:57 <JVassie> so in http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/evesham.png 13:31:04 <JVassie> the 'top' of the canopies 13:31:10 <andythenorth> compare to FIRS shed: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lighting_example_uk_stations.png 13:31:24 <JVassie> oh 13:31:31 <JVassie> not like my example then :p 13:31:46 <andythenorth> oops 13:31:56 <andythenorth> sorry distracted by failing web server :D 13:32:01 <JVassie> so in essence its flipped? 13:32:04 <andythenorth> yes 13:32:05 <JVassie> fair enough 13:32:07 <JVassie> and no worries 13:32:14 <andythenorth> it's a very annoying discovery :| 13:32:25 <andythenorth> I had to redraw a lot of FIRS :( 13:32:32 <JVassie> so many newgrf sets are based on light from top right 13:32:38 <andythenorth> I know 13:32:50 <andythenorth> it's a silly direction to light isometric sprites from though 13:32:58 <JVassie> mmm 13:33:02 <andythenorth> for the art to look good, at least one face needs to be fully lit 13:33:08 <andythenorth> otherwise everything is gloomy 13:33:36 <andythenorth> not suggesting you have to repaint it :o 13:33:59 <andythenorth> some have made the case that changing the lighting direction improves the art 13:34:58 <JVassie> for now I guess will keep them as is, and once the set is eventually in the coding stage 13:35:09 <JVassie> I can see how well it interfaces in different situations in ttd 13:35:13 <JVassie> and make the decision then 13:35:17 <JVassie> thanks for the heads up :) 13:35:18 <andythenorth> it's quite easy to retrofit the lighting ;) 13:35:24 <andythenorth> and mostly it's just roofs that need to change 13:35:26 <Ammler> wow, that firs shed looks like lighting is from west 13:35:47 <andythenorth> only if the default coal mine looks like it's lit from the west :P 13:35:56 <peter1138> hm 13:36:04 <Ammler> andythenorth: you mean original :-P 13:36:20 <andythenorth> I think default is ambiguous 13:36:23 <andythenorth> depending on context :P 13:36:28 <andythenorth> I should say original TTD 13:36:35 <peter1138> heh 13:36:37 <Ammler> original is ttd, default can be both 13:36:39 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:36:41 <peter1138> 3d render everything 13:36:44 <andythenorth> 4d 13:36:58 <andythenorth> (animated gifs) 13:37:26 <peter1138> (are the 32bpp crowd still insisting that everything needs to be modeled and rendered with a 3d package, and also 1000X larger than normal...?) 13:37:46 <Ammler> peter1138: there is no crowd 13:37:53 <peter1138> it petered out? 13:38:14 <JVassie> planetmaker: how exactly do I use ttdviewer to check for the animated colours? 13:38:24 <planetmaker> just start it... 13:38:28 <JVassie> have done 13:38:33 <planetmaker> and load your file 13:38:36 <JVassie> check 13:38:39 <Ammler> play around with the options 13:38:54 <planetmaker> enable / disable the animation colours in the rhs menu 13:39:07 <planetmaker> it nothing changes: all is fine ;-) 13:39:11 <JVassie> have done, none changes 13:39:13 <JVassie> righteo 13:39:21 <JVassie> so saving that file and using it in NML should work then? 13:39:50 <planetmaker> well, you need to have it saved to view it in ttdviewer in the first place, right? 13:40:03 <JVassie> yeh 13:40:05 <JVassie> true 13:40:24 <JVassie> Image file BB27000.png: Palette is not recognised as a valid palette >.< 13:40:25 <JVassie> d'oh 13:40:53 <planetmaker> hm... JVassie nml/docs has afaik two palettes 13:41:08 <JVassie> ill try importign the windows one 13:41:09 <Ammler> andythenorth: JVassieis from right up, I thought you said, it needs to be right down, but your shed is from left down 13:41:18 <planetmaker> JVassie: if you can use the DOS one, do that 13:41:26 <planetmaker> more colours for you there 13:41:29 <JVassie> doesnt like DOS 13:41:33 <JVassie> the sprites are already drawn 13:41:43 <JVassie> in MS paint I believe he did them in 13:41:44 <planetmaker> it has nothing to do with what OS you like 13:41:47 <andythenorth> Ammler: it's not 13:41:53 <andythenorth> you can zoom in and pick RGB values 13:42:00 <planetmaker> and if you don't have a valid palette... then using windows palette is stupid 13:42:05 <andythenorth> the shed is lit from about 4.30pm 13:42:15 <JVassie> <JVassie> doesnt like DOS - i meant that NML doesnt like the file when its using the DOS palette 13:42:31 <planetmaker> maybe it's a wrong palette file. There have been some... 13:42:38 <planetmaker> subtly different 13:43:28 <JVassie> hmm 13:44:21 <JVassie> when I imported the palette 13:44:29 <JVassie> GIMP picked up it had 256 colours in 16 columns 13:44:45 <Yexo> that doesn't mean the palette is correct 13:44:49 <JVassie> true 13:45:02 <JVassie> but at one poitn I had an error saying palette didnt have 256 colours 13:45:04 <JVassie> *point 13:45:31 <Ammler> andythenorth: with your lighting, around 90% of every newgrf is wrong 13:45:33 <planetmaker> yes... both can be errors. But NML checks for the palette to also have the right colours 13:45:38 <JVassie> liek for example now, ive just tried it with the windows palette 13:45:42 <JVassie> days there arent 256 entries 13:45:42 <andythenorth> Ammler: my lighting? 13:45:50 <JVassie> *says 13:45:51 * andythenorth will do something else 13:45:52 <Ammler> well, the lighting you think is right :-) 13:45:58 <andythenorth> arguing about lighting is stupid 13:46:05 <andythenorth> the newgrfs are wrong 13:46:11 <Ammler> well, you know what I mean 13:46:18 <Ammler> yes, I said that, 90% of them are 13:46:18 <andythenorth> assuming they want to be compliant with original graphics, they're wrong 13:46:19 <peter1138> what lighting is correct? 13:46:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth's of course ;-) :-P 13:46:37 <andythenorth> if they want to invent their own art, then its's subjective and all bets are off 13:46:46 <andythenorth> therefore there is no argument or debate to be had :P 13:47:35 <Ammler> well, on the example above, the difference is quite much 13:47:42 <peter1138> ttrs3 has some odd lighting 13:48:08 <JVassie> lighting aside 13:48:31 <andythenorth> we should add lightning :P 13:48:35 <andythenorth> or lightening 13:48:42 <andythenorth> as advanced options 13:48:45 <peter1138> no e 13:48:48 <andythenorth> new disaster 13:48:55 <JVassie> should add ability for png's to be used withotu a palette! 13:48:57 <peter1138> unless you just want to lighten everything 13:48:59 <andythenorth> 'lighting struck your station' 13:48:59 <JVassie> much simpler 13:49:03 <peter1138> JVassie, we did 13:49:03 <Chris_Booth> lol that could crash planes 13:49:07 <andythenorth> 'lightening strike, your game turned white' 13:49:07 <peter1138> JVassie, it's called 32bpp 13:49:08 <Chris_Booth> sink ships 13:49:13 <JVassie> peter1138: d'oh 13:49:13 <Chris_Booth> or stops Erail trains 13:49:43 *** enr1x_ [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 13:49:58 <JVassie> this is annoying me :( 13:50:05 <JVassie> all i want is to make a wee little newgrf! 13:50:06 <JVassie> hmm[h 13:50:09 <JVassie> *hmmph 13:51:22 <Yexo> as far as I know nml handles palettes in image files exactly the same as grfcodec 13:51:27 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:51:29 <Yexo> ie it has to be the correct palette 13:52:04 <JVassie> shame the windoes NML doesnt support PCX 13:52:20 <Ammler> JVassie: if you convert colors with gimp, you need to disable the option "remove unused colors" or so 13:52:39 <JVassie> Ammler: I did so when I converted to an indexed picture 13:52:57 <Ammler> but you need to use the "full" ttd palette 13:52:59 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFD4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:53:04 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:07 <Ammler> not just the one without action/company colors 13:53:22 <Ammler> that one is just for converting :-) 13:53:39 <JVassie> full emaning the oen with 256 colours? 13:53:41 <JVassie> *meaning 13:53:42 <Ammler> before you export, you need to use the full palette 13:53:43 <JVassie> *one 13:53:44 <Ammler> yep 13:53:59 <JVassie> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl 13:54:10 <JVassie> is what I used to import the DOS palette into GIMP 13:54:45 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:55:08 <Ammler> he, thought you use the windows palette? 13:55:13 <JVassie> ive tried both 13:55:14 <JVassie> :p 13:55:34 <JVassie> on sepereate 'fresh' versions of the file 13:55:39 <Yexo> can you upload your new png file? 13:55:47 <Yexo> than I'll take a look at what exactly is wrong with the palette 13:55:49 <JVassie> after beign indexed by DOS? 13:55:59 <Yexo> yes (or win) 13:56:02 <Ammler> maybe both :-) 13:56:16 <Ammler> your original and your convert 13:57:52 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 13:57:59 <JVassie> http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/BB27000-dos.png 13:58:03 <JVassie> http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/BB27000-win.png 13:58:07 <JVassie> http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/BB27000.png 13:59:04 <JVassie> there you are Yexo 13:59:08 <JVassie> / Ammler 13:59:11 <JVassie> :) 13:59:38 <JVassie> all 3 look identical to my untrained eye 14:03:00 <Yexo> JVassie both the -dos and the -win image have a palette with 255 entries, not 256 14:08:39 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFEC02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:13:42 <JVassie> ah 14:13:52 <JVassie> so there was an error with the .gpl I imported? 14:14:21 <Terkhen> I have been using the dos and win palettes from openttdcoop a lot 14:14:32 <JVassie> are they .gpl? 14:14:40 <JVassie> for importing into GIMP? 14:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there are options like "remove unused palette colours", which need to be disabled on saving 14:14:52 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: have made sure thats unchecked 14:18:11 <Terkhen> JVassie: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/2 <--- yes 14:18:29 <JVassie> awesome ill try those instead 14:22:44 <JVassie> ah hah this one comes up with (256) in the palette window 14:22:47 <JVassie> not (265) 14:22:49 <JVassie> \o/ 14:22:50 <JVassie> i see 14:23:32 <JVassie> NML didnt output any message that time 14:23:41 <JVassie> wooo! 14:23:44 <JVassie> success! 14:23:45 <JVassie> a .grf 14:23:46 <JVassie> :D 14:23:51 * JVassie hugs Terkhen et al 14:23:57 <Terkhen> :) 14:24:48 <JVassie> hmm, not appearing in the newgrf window though :x 14:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1.04**30 14:24:51 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3.24339751003 14:25:39 * JVassie cant remember how Yexo said to fix that :p 14:25:49 <Terkhen> JVassie: it's probably something wrong on the grf block 14:25:57 <Yexo> pastebin the nml code 14:26:01 <Terkhen> ^ 14:27:49 <JVassie> http://pastebin.com/m4ChMxYD 14:28:26 <JVassie> http://pastebin.com/mnPb4Akx is the .lng file 14:29:07 <Yexo> that looks fine 14:29:15 <JVassie> :s weird 14:30:19 <peter1138> did nml ever support setting the same property for multiple ids at once? 14:30:26 <JVassie> how do you set the version of (o)ttd(p) its compatible with? 14:31:05 <JVassie> like 3 * 108 08 07 "JC" 00 01 "British Station Set v0.0.4 " 14:31:07 <JVassie> sets it to 07 14:31:10 <Yexo> peter1138: no 14:31:28 <Yexo> JVassie: that sets the nfo version, it's done automatically by nml 14:31:32 <JVassie> ah right 14:31:55 <Ammler> [16:18] <Terkhen> JVassie: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/2 <--- yes <-- same files as in nml docs, afaik 14:32:06 <JVassie> Ammler: they arent 14:32:13 <JVassie> because those ones worked :p 14:32:21 <JVassie> (the ottdcoop) 14:32:28 <Ammler> hmm 14:32:55 <JVassie> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1050/ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl 14:32:55 <JVassie> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl 14:33:23 <JVassie> first one works, 2nd doesnt weirdly 14:34:20 <Yexo> JVassie: compiling a file with that nml code and it shows up fine 14:34:24 <JVassie> :s 14:34:35 <JVassie> nvm 14:34:38 <JVassie> im a fricking idiot 14:34:42 * JVassie hangs head in shame 14:35:00 * JVassie thanks Yexo :D 14:35:17 <Ammler> your browser seems to convert the hg file somehow 14:35:21 <Ammler> 20ca38855c09d94d439e056094246ae6 ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl 14:35:22 <Ammler> 20ca38855c09d94d439e056094246ae6 ttd-newgrf-dos-hg.gpl 14:35:27 *** mksen [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 14:35:47 <JVassie> odd :s 14:36:15 <JVassie> hmm, in terms if alignment issues, if i want to move it up a pixel, I add or subtract one to the y-offset? 14:36:21 <JVassie> and vice versa for the x offset 14:36:48 <Ammler> JVassie: use the ingame grf debugger 14:36:54 <Ammler> (gui) 14:37:02 <JVassie> accessed by? 14:37:06 <Ammler> SpriteAligner 14:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1.04**80 14:37:11 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 23.0497990699 14:37:28 <Ammler> you need to enable newgrf_develper config 14:37:43 <Terkhen> JVassie: in your openttd.cfg, set "newgrf_developer_tools = true" 14:37:45 <Ammler> then you get a GUI to check sprites ingame 14:38:18 <Terkhen> with the newgrf debug gui you can also check stuff related to a newgrf item such as variables, active callbacks and so on 14:38:19 <JVassie> set to true 14:38:29 <JVassie> now 14:38:38 <Ammler> start a game with your newgrf 14:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how about NewGRF-currencies? 14:39:09 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: newgrf-locales :-) 14:39:11 <JVassie> done 14:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: entirely different issue :p 14:39:32 <Terkhen> JVassie: IIRC the sprite aligner was in the last menu 14:40:23 <JVassie> found it 14:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem: a vehicle set may want to have historically correct pricing, but this depends on start year and inflation settings 14:40:26 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: well, currencies are locales 14:40:35 <JVassie> ok 14:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: not in the game, they are completely separate 14:40:38 <Ammler> ah 14:40:41 <JVassie> so i can use the arrow buttons 14:40:42 <Ammler> I see 14:40:46 <JVassie> will that move the sprites ingame? 14:40:56 <Ammler> JVassie: yes, try it! 14:41:02 <Terkhen> yes, you can use that to get the right offsets 14:41:16 <Ammler> awesome feature :-) 14:41:17 <JVassie> :D 14:41:18 <JVassie> woo 14:41:24 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:47 <Ammler> but it shows the alignment just ingame, it doesn't write those to the grf :-P 14:42:26 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:42:42 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem (2): assume a vehicle set is modeled for 4% inflation, and a start year 1920, and sets correct prices for 1:1 conversion factor. then a game start in 1950 would divide all "historically correct" prices by 3.24, in order to counter that, the newgrf could set the conversion factor to 3.24 higher by an action 6 checking the start year 14:43:58 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:44:51 <JVassie> awesome 14:44:57 <JVassie> got 8 sets of offsets written down :) 14:45:00 <JVassie> <3 14:48:23 <Ammler> why does a newgrf set calc with inflation at all? 14:49:23 <Ammler> that could be task of openttd 14:49:42 <Ammler> or rather should 14:50:01 *** enr1x_ [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:52:35 <JVassie> woo 14:52:38 <JVassie> alignment complete 14:52:40 <JVassie> looks good :) 14:52:57 * JVassie makes mental note to do alignment with wagons in future straight away 14:53:01 <JVassie> rather than 'egine solo' 14:53:01 <JVassie> :p 14:53:04 <JVassie> *engine 14:53:20 <JVassie> thanks Ammler / Yexo / Terkhen / planetmaker for all yuor help :D 14:53:24 <JVassie> *your 14:54:41 <planetmaker> welcome 14:55:12 <JVassie> my first NML .grf 14:55:13 <JVassie> woop 14:56:37 <planetmaker> :-) sweet 14:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> dude! 14:57:25 <planetmaker> hm... there's a pre-made wiki syntax beautification script... :-) 15:02:51 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-074-202-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:03:28 <JVassie> * ******************************************** 15:03:28 <JVassie> * Adjust y-offset in depots 15:03:28 <JVassie> * ******************************************** 15:03:28 <JVassie> */ 15:03:30 <JVassie> traininfo_y_offset = 2; 15:03:30 <JVassie> oooh 15:04:51 <planetmaker> looks like from ogfx+trains? 15:05:23 <JVassie> yup 15:05:35 <JVassie> so that sets all sprites in the depot up 2 px? 15:05:53 <planetmaker> yup 15:06:05 <planetmaker> or rather down iirc 15:06:21 <JVassie> mmm would make more sense 15:06:39 <Yexo> negative values are allowed 15:06:50 <JVassie> mine float 1 or 2px when put next to ukrs2 coaches in depot for example 15:06:59 <JVassie> even though they line up ingame 15:07:37 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 15:08:41 <JVassie> I presume adding stations to NML involves a hefty amount of work? 15:12:20 <planetmaker> it's said to be not exactly straight forward 15:12:44 <JVassie> :p 15:13:06 <JVassie> I wish i knew enough about the nfo involed to help out 15:13:09 <JVassie> *involved 15:13:34 <JVassie> what would you say is the most complex stations grf released so far? IRS? 15:13:38 <JVassie> *ISR? 15:15:41 <planetmaker> CHIPS is probably among them 15:15:56 <Yexo> ISR is more complex for sure 15:16:00 <planetmaker> ISR is not bad either, though 15:16:06 <planetmaker> complex != size 15:16:11 <planetmaker> much of ISR is single tiles 15:16:12 <Yexo> hmm, true 15:16:28 <JVassie> guess so 15:16:49 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:17:20 <JVassie> just realised I have a lot of completed French Set sprites laying around on my pc 15:20:49 <planetmaker> a set without coder, eh? 15:21:08 <planetmaker> well, there's always enough to do for NewGRF coders 15:21:42 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:49 <Terkhen> oh, that reminds me 15:25:14 <Terkhen> JVassie: do you know what is the status of the spain set licensing? 15:25:30 <JVassie> not the foggiest mate 15:25:38 <JVassie> not been involved in the dev for years :( 15:25:40 <Terkhen> I'm guessing "none", but I have not read the hwole thread 15:25:43 <Terkhen> whole* 15:25:50 <Terkhen> hmmm... ok 15:26:18 <Terkhen> the sprites are nice, but the set has many bugs and the current coder does not seem to have much time to work on it 15:26:38 <Yexo> JVassie: and the bmss? 15:27:06 <JVassie> I should really choose a license for it 15:27:20 * Terkhen suggest gpl :P 15:27:23 <JVassie> I guess it will be GPL 15:27:24 <JVassie> :p 15:27:34 <Terkhen> :) 15:28:21 <JVassie> seeign as there are sprites posted on the website 15:28:27 <JVassie> I should probably make it clear asap 15:29:07 <Terkhen> clear licensing is always a good thing :) 15:30:55 <andythenorth> he 15:31:00 <JVassie> hee 15:31:09 <andythenorth> unrelated to that, it's fun when GPL is described as 'less restrictive' 15:31:18 <andythenorth> some might say it's more restrictive :) 15:31:23 <andythenorth> for good reason 15:33:03 <Terkhen> I said clear, not less restrictive :P 15:33:38 <Terkhen> it ensures that development can continue 15:34:01 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 15:34:11 <planetmaker> yes. IMHO having a GPL or CC-BY license is very important. Or work can be lost for the community 15:34:46 <planetmaker> I'd have been quite sad, if I'd not have been allowed to add parameters to TTRS3 15:35:01 <planetmaker> but they did the right thing [TM]. And so did ISR actually 15:35:22 <planetmaker> and JapanesSets... though there it's hard(er) to find sources 15:35:44 <planetmaker> though... it might be a similar development style like ECS 15:36:56 <JVassie> hmm 15:43:39 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has joined #openttd 15:43:59 <peter1138> hmm 15:44:14 <planetmaker> hmm 15:44:27 <peter1138> hmm! 15:44:31 <Terkhen> hmm 15:44:43 <peter1138> just like the old days 15:45:23 <planetmaker> men can perfectly well communicate with quite a reduced set of letters ;-) 15:45:40 <Terkhen> yup 15:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> <JVassie> what would you say is the most complex stations grf released so far? IRS? <-- modern stations is quite overcomplicated 15:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (and buggy, and borderline broken) 15:51:07 <Terkhen> it does not sound like a great example :P 15:57:25 <JVassie> no :p 15:58:11 <planetmaker> Terkhen: you like GRFID over grfID? 15:58:41 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 15:58:42 <planetmaker> I somehow prefer the latter 15:59:20 <Terkhen> I actually prefer GrfID 15:59:27 <Terkhen> but GRFID seems to be more used 15:59:57 <planetmaker> he 16:00:55 <planetmaker> well, I guess it doens't matter. I just find GRFID hides the GRF while grfID makes it slightly more visible. But might be me. So... 16:00:59 <planetmaker> ... GRFID it is 16:01:09 <Terkhen> go ahead with grfID, I don't really mind :P 16:01:26 <planetmaker> :-D 16:01:32 <planetmaker> war about proper capitalzation! 16:01:45 <planetmaker> one spelling certainly is copyright protected 16:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> GRF-ID? 16:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm totally inconsistent wrt this as well :p 16:03:25 <andythenorth> NewgrfID 16:03:36 <andythenorth> pah 16:03:46 <JVassie> GrFiD!! 16:03:47 <orudge> I would say GRFID, probably. 16:04:02 <Terkhen> gRfId 16:04:23 <JVassie> 9RF1D 16:04:24 <JVassie> tbh 16:04:36 <orudge> we could rename it to something new and snazzy 16:04:46 <orudge> Splomr 16:04:52 <Terkhen> NewGRF NewID 16:04:58 <orudge> "Update the GRF's Splomr to uniquely identify it" 16:05:07 <Terkhen> :D 16:05:09 <planetmaker> hehe 16:05:26 <planetmaker> well. GRFID 16:05:52 <planetmaker> this is just nice... run regex on all wikipages is so simple :-) 16:06:05 <orudge> For what it's worth, the original specs, and the wiki, use "GRF ID" 16:06:19 <planetmaker> well. it's w/o space now 16:06:23 <orudge> mmh 16:06:47 <Terkhen> I saw it without spaces in some places before writing that entry in TermConsistency 16:07:39 <planetmaker> hm, yes, there are places with space, too 16:07:56 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fef75.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:08:15 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 16:08:54 <Terkhen> hi frosch123 16:09:11 <planetmaker> quak 16:09:24 <planetmaker> changed the spaced versions also to GRFID 16:09:41 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:09:49 <frosch123> moin :) 16:10:30 <Terkhen> frosch123: what do you think that should be the next step regarding town control? 16:11:03 <andythenorth> add cb 15E: provide ponies 16:11:14 <frosch123> Terkhen: maybe additional text? 16:11:20 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 16:11:26 <Terkhen> I'm thinking on callbacks, probably additional text as it is required by the other ones 16:11:57 <Terkhen> not exactly required... but these features should have a way of providing feedback 16:12:17 <planetmaker> callback: rename town: 1948: s/Chemnitz/Karl-Marx-Stadt/; 1990: s/Karl-Marx-Stadt/Chemnitz/ 16:12:26 <planetmaker> (or whenever that was) 16:12:32 <Terkhen> ok, if we agree I'll start reading other similar callbacks :) 16:16:55 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0f84fe.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:19:48 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:21:51 <planetmaker> I always confuse files and documents ;-) 16:24:19 <Terkhen> hmm... generic callbacks need a feature number, so towns would need to reserve a feature number 16:24:25 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:36 * Terkhen wonders if any kind of action0 makes sense for towns 16:24:40 <Terkhen> probably not 16:26:07 <JVassie> Introduction date, town life? 16:26:10 <JVassie> xD 16:26:18 <JVassie> date of random destruction 16:26:25 <JVassie> power 16:26:27 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it could. 16:26:29 <JVassie> max speed? 16:26:30 <JVassie> :D 16:26:37 <planetmaker> like town growth cargo 16:26:38 <JVassie> *growth speed 16:26:45 <planetmaker> growth speed indeed 16:26:58 <planetmaker> and a potential town type 16:27:07 <Terkhen> for stuff like growth speed, it would also make sense to have a callback 16:27:08 <planetmaker> which house newgrfs could read 16:27:19 <Terkhen> and if we have a callback... why do we need an action0 property? 16:27:44 <JVassie> Hmm, planetmaker; what sort of block would I need for a livery override for the engine itself, im thinking in terms of year built 16:28:10 <planetmaker> JVassie: a livery override block is what you need 16:28:41 <planetmaker> but... livery override is NOT the graphics depending on build year 16:28:50 <planetmaker> that's a simple switch sequence 16:28:54 <JVassie> you need to combien with a switch block? 16:28:56 <JVassie> *combine 16:29:00 <planetmaker> livery override is ONLY when a wagon adopts its view to an engine 16:29:08 <frosch123> Terkhen: towns need a feature byte for long 16:29:20 <frosch123> nforenum has quite some troulble with stuff without a feature byte 16:29:45 *** Bilge [~bilge@92.28.197.104] has quit [Quit: This is not conducive to meaningful dialogue.] 16:29:48 <frosch123> (internally it fakes feature 8 to be 'town'; but that is no nice way) 16:29:57 <planetmaker> JVassie: check out how I handle the bulk wagon, coal cargo 16:30:06 <JVassie> which src? opengfx+ ? 16:30:07 <planetmaker> that has different graphics depending on build year 16:30:13 <planetmaker> ogfx+trains, yes 16:30:16 <JVassie> kk 16:30:17 <JVassie> thx 16:30:33 *** ar3k [~ident@ebq4.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 16:30:50 *** dunno [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 16:30:51 <Terkhen> towns could take number 0x13 (reserving 0x12 for airports) 16:31:15 <Terkhen> or maybe a number in a different, higher range if we want to make clear it is a fake feature 16:31:48 <Terkhen> unless it makes sense to have a real action0 for towns 16:32:04 <planetmaker> signals... 16:32:11 *** dunno [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 16:32:23 <planetmaker> they also have a sort-of dummy feature byte 16:32:27 <JVassie> if (param[1] == 0) { 16:32:27 <JVassie> /* Steam / Diesel / Electric wagons */ 16:32:27 <JVassie> disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 29, 53); 16:32:27 <JVassie> /* Monorail wagons */ 16:32:27 <JVassie> disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 59, 83); 16:32:27 <JVassie> /* Maglev wagons */ 16:32:29 <JVassie> disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 91, 115); 16:32:31 <JVassie> thats cool! :D 16:32:45 <Terkhen> planetmaker: true, 0E 16:32:48 <frosch123> Terkhen: airports already have 0D 16:33:04 <frosch123> so, 0x12 is fine 16:33:15 <planetmaker> JVassie: it's even cooler, when you use if (disable_trains == 1) { ... } 16:33:15 <Terkhen> ok :) 16:33:19 <planetmaker> with a named parameter 16:33:32 <JVassie> :p 16:33:35 <Yexo> <Terkhen> towns could take number 0x13 (reserving 0x12 for airports) <- airports already ahve 0D 16:33:36 <JVassie> true 16:33:42 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-074-202-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:33:45 <planetmaker> it was not possible when I wrote that. But is now 16:34:39 <Yexo> that makes me think we should slowly head towards disallowing the "param[x]" syntax 16:34:40 <planetmaker> Terkhen: then reserve feature 12 now. Today there's a special offer: buy this feature and get a wiki entry for free 16:34:43 <Yexo> as there is no need for it anymore 16:34:59 <JVassie> ive found the spriteset/groups for coal wagon 16:35:03 <JVassie> just need to fidn the item 16:35:05 <JVassie> :p 16:35:18 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0#Feature <--- I'll just reserve it in this table :) 16:36:53 <planetmaker> hm, JVassie seems I put that thing in a template 16:37:01 <JVassie> :( 16:37:08 <planetmaker> templates_wagon:27ff 16:37:22 <planetmaker> template_wagons.pnml 16:37:36 <planetmaker> should be understandable also there 16:37:56 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecj132.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:38:15 <JVassie> hmm 16:38:17 <planetmaker> switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, name ## _year_switch, build_year < year_for_modern) { \ 16:38:19 <planetmaker> 1: name ## _early_group; \ 16:38:20 <planetmaker> name ## _modern_group; \ 16:38:22 <planetmaker> } 16:38:44 <planetmaker> that's it basically 16:38:51 <Terkhen> for using templates you need to use a makefile system though 16:39:11 <JVassie> im happy not to bother with them and the .pnml files 16:39:58 <planetmaker> JVassie: pnml is also nml. Just with a few added short-cuts which the compiler fills in for me. Thus I need to type less. E.g. this template is used for each bulk cargo. But I only typed it once 16:40:18 <Yexo> and edit it once, should there be a bug in it 16:40:33 <Terkhen> if you don't want to bother with templates, grab the generated nml file for ogfx-trains and look for the code generated from the template 16:40:46 <Terkhen> but... what they said :P 16:45:07 *** mksen [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [] 16:45:26 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 16:57:11 <planetmaker> !rcon clients 16:57:12 *** planetmaker was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.] 16:57:21 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 16:57:25 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 16:57:25 <planetmaker> :-D 16:57:46 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:58:44 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo] 17:08:59 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 17:12:14 *** KouDy [~KouDy@pub212004071029.fx-hfc.datazug.ch] has joined #openttd 17:18:12 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:21:15 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.67.111] has joined #openttd 17:22:23 *** Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:25:17 <frosch123> hmm, planetmaker: did you mark the wrong item in the todo list as "done" ? 17:25:31 <frosch123> i.e. page-to-be-created instead of varaction2-towns 17:35:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:36:29 <Wolf01> hellol 17:37:25 <planetmaker> probably, frosch123 17:38:26 <planetmaker> fixed 17:39:54 <planetmaker> for what it's worth: The wiki now uses consistently towns over cities, TTDPatch instead of TTDP, OpenTTD instead of OTTD, more often makes clear that some version infos refer to TTDPatch, 17:40:03 <planetmaker> and always GRFID 17:41:35 <planetmaker> oh, and Size is always linked in page tables ;-) 17:41:57 <planetmaker> s/page //g 17:42:05 <frosch123> planetmaker: there are lot of cases, where internal links [[ | ]] have two || in the middle 17:42:11 <frosch123> thus breaking tables 17:42:20 <frosch123> e.g http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action1 17:42:45 <frosch123> (i also fixed lots of those in the pages i converted) 17:42:58 <frosch123> does your bot handle that? 17:43:19 <planetmaker> it did. But all pages should be treated - those which had not been touched up to last night 17:43:31 <planetmaker> thus everything *should* be readable now 17:43:53 <planetmaker> but some pages where the bot did not yet work, with the old script, might have that failed conversion you pointed out 17:44:09 <planetmaker> and... if pages had formula - they'll be broken most likely 17:44:38 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22590 /trunk/src/lang/ (indonesian.txt welsh.txt): 17:44:38 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:44:38 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by adjayanto 17:44:38 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: welsh - 19 changes by welshdragon 17:46:11 * andythenorth has to work out advanced sprite layout 17:46:17 <andythenorth> getting up at 5am not ideal for this :) 17:46:49 <andythenorth> need a snow dependent ground tile here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/283/ 17:50:18 *** angelo [~angelo@2.32.117.12] has joined #openttd 17:50:40 *** angelo [~angelo@2.32.117.12] has quit [] 17:50:46 *** Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has joined #openttd 17:52:50 <planetmaker> you'll get that with NML :-P 17:52:53 <planetmaker> possibly 17:53:14 * andythenorth is too impatient for that :D 17:57:25 <Lakie> You might want to ask frosch123 about those, andythenorth. 17:58:07 <Lakie> If you are refering to what I think you are, using buffers and such to control how the action2 layout is used. 18:04:07 *** keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:04:09 <andythenorth> I have the spec in my browser 18:04:14 <andythenorth> I'm just a bit slow 18:15:53 <Terkhen> hmm... openttd is using generic callback 18, only for stations though 18:20:47 <Yexo> yes, that's the only useful thing from that callback 18:20:56 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-074-202-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 18:21:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: the examples here rely on procedures? http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Advanced_Sprite_Layout 18:21:10 <andythenorth> but that's not essential? 18:21:14 <Terkhen> I'll document it as implemented for stations only then :) 18:21:27 <Terkhen> (in openttd code) 18:21:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, it is not essential 18:22:05 * Terkhen is happy to have generic callback code already :P 18:22:33 <frosch123> it won't help you much with the texts :p 18:23:11 <Terkhen> :) 18:23:12 <frosch123> iirc it only chains through the grfs until it has a result; you would need to concat the texts 18:23:18 <Terkhen> ouch 18:23:30 <frosch123> but, well, it already loads the texts 18:23:36 <frosch123> s/texts/chains/ 18:23:44 * andythenorth sees why procedures are used 18:24:11 <Terkhen> the generic callback code will need many codechanges anyways; right now it is only prepared to deal with a single callback 18:24:27 <Terkhen> or at least some parts of the generic callback code 18:25:49 <frosch123> btw. the industry window already concats the texts from multiple callbacks into a single string; so maybe that helps you 18:26:08 <frosch123> (cargo suffixes and such) 18:28:36 <Terkhen> thanks, I'll look into it :) 18:28:54 <planetmaker> hm... generic callback. What will it enable? The persistant storage access? 18:29:36 <frosch123> planetmaker: industries and object grfs displaying additional text in the town gui 18:29:49 <planetmaker> ah 18:30:41 <planetmaker> that sounds like a quite difficult change 18:31:13 <frosch123> i doubt that scares terkhen :) 18:31:40 <Terkhen> hmm... can town generic callbacks access the town's persistent storage? 18:32:11 <Terkhen> it is a bit scary, yes :P 18:32:27 <Terkhen> but I have been doing only small stuff for months 18:32:35 <frosch123> Terkhen: they have to, what else should they base their output on? 18:33:01 <Terkhen> does that mean that they should also have access all town variables? 18:33:11 <Terkhen> I'm a bit confused about how generic callbacks work, each one seems different :P 18:33:28 <frosch123> however, changes to persistant storages by gui callbacks are reverted after the callback for obvious desync reasons 18:33:49 <Yexo> access to the town persistent storage makes it sound like a town callback, not a generic callback 18:33:55 * Terkhen makes a note to test that once this is done 18:34:05 <Yexo> a generic callback should not reference to any object at all, or it wouldn't be a "generic" callback anymore 18:34:07 <frosch123> Yexo: a generic callback for the town feature, yes 18:34:20 <Yexo> so a town callback 18:34:20 <frosch123> "generic callback" only means, it is not assigned to any ID 18:34:35 <Yexo> if you see it that way, yes 18:34:37 <frosch123> as towns are no grf defined entities, they have no ID 18:35:01 <planetmaker> they have an index 18:35:08 <frosch123> the ai callback exists for all vehicle- and the station feature afaik 18:35:32 <frosch123> planetmaker: but a grf won't set properties for town 0 :p 18:35:42 <Yexo> yes, but the ai callback can't access any vehicle or station specific variables 18:35:43 <planetmaker> not? 18:35:45 <frosch123> there are no 'town classes' 18:35:50 <planetmaker> currently :-P 18:36:21 <frosch123> Yexo: but only because the station/vehicle does not exist yet 18:37:21 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 18:40:00 <Terkhen> I wonder if town classes would make sense 18:40:29 *** wattis [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 18:40:46 <Terkhen> if callbacks are good enough, it should be possible to implement town classes just using callbacks and persistent storage 18:41:01 <Terkhen> so probably not a good idea (as action0) 18:41:24 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 18:41:46 <planetmaker> town classes... rather in the form of regions or so. But... all that can be done via houses or so 18:41:51 <Terkhen> http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Towngrowth_Challenge#Town_classification <--- I was thinking on those 18:41:59 *** wattis [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 18:42:00 <Terkhen> but they could be done via callbacks too 18:42:32 <andythenorth> hmm 18:42:39 <andythenorth> I can't compile advanced action 2 :) 18:42:42 <andythenorth> renum is sad 18:42:51 <andythenorth> maybe I can suppress those warnings? 18:44:10 <andythenorth> can't disable fatal errors :( 18:44:18 <andythenorth> hrrrp 18:44:23 <Terkhen> what is the error? 18:45:05 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/284/ 18:45:13 <andythenorth> might actually be valid, but I have no way to be sure 18:45:15 <frosch123> Terkhen: nforenum not being ready for advanced sprite layout 18:45:30 <Terkhen> oh :P 18:45:52 * andythenorth baby -> bed 18:46:30 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/wip_advsprlayout.diff <- did not got futher than that 18:46:41 <frosch123> the autocorrect feature of action2 gives me trouble 18:46:54 <frosch123> esp. as i do not see how it can actually fix something meaningful 18:49:15 <Yexo> does anyone use that? 18:51:05 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:51:39 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22591 /trunk/src/newgrf_callbacks.h: -Doc: Callback 0x18 (AI purchase selection) is implemented for stations. 18:53:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22592 /trunk/src/bmp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4645]: Reading of heightmaps with uncommon BMP formats failed due to uninitialised variables. (Parody) 18:59:21 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:01:46 <planetmaker> wrt variables 18 and extra_callback_info_1 and ..._2: what's the better naming for consistency? I prefer extra_callback_info - but where to put the info that it's vars 10 and 18 then? 19:02:17 <frosch123> well, they are not specific to callbacks 19:02:25 <frosch123> they are also used for normal sprites 19:02:38 <frosch123> e.g. station custom foundations or advanced sprite layout 19:02:50 <frosch123> so, how about "extra info 10" and "extra info 18" ? 19:03:30 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:04:19 <planetmaker> hm... but people need to know also that it's a variable. I'm talking about the newgrf wiki 19:06:05 <frosch123> imo "extra info 10/18" on the variationalaction2 page, and "variable 10/18" in the individual descriptions 19:06:09 <frosch123> everything else is too long imo 19:06:31 <frosch123> "extra info variable 10" or "extra callback info variable 10" :p 19:08:18 <planetmaker> hm... I like the extra callback info. But... I'm prejudiced by NML :-P 19:09:17 <frosch123> it would be nice if the name contains 10 / 18 instead of 1 / 2. the rest is not that important imo 19:09:52 <frosch123> i think most of the callback descriptions currently refer to variable 10 / 18 19:10:02 <planetmaker> most 19:10:04 <frosch123> without any "extra", "callback" or "info" 19:10:22 <planetmaker> one or two mention it additionally as extra_callback_info 1/2 19:10:36 <frosch123> but putting "variable 10" in the description of the variables on the variationalction2 page is silly :p 19:11:26 <planetmaker> :-) 19:24:25 <andythenorth> autocorrect feature? 19:24:35 * andythenorth has not really read nforenum docs 19:27:13 <frosch123> it is quite handy when decoding .grf into .nfo 19:27:31 <frosch123> it knows where to put escapes, strings, or plain hex in the nfo 19:27:41 <frosch123> grfcodec only dumps random junk compared to that 19:28:09 <andythenorth> makes sense 19:28:20 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-240-150.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:28:26 <Yexo> frosch123: are you talking about the autocorrect feature or the beautifier? 19:28:27 <andythenorth> ach 19:28:40 <frosch123> but it also tried to fix others stuff, like differing feature bytes in action 1 and 2 19:28:42 <andythenorth> I'll just hard-code snow ground tile into the graphics 19:28:47 * andythenorth is impatient :P 19:28:51 <frosch123> but i do not know how useful that is 19:29:42 <frosch123> Yexo: i use the -a command line option to turn grfcodec qutoed text/hex mess into the right stuff 19:30:20 <frosch123> the description says you can specify -a multiple times to activate more stuff, but i never did that :) 19:30:21 <supermop> hello! 19:30:56 <Yexo> frosch123: I only ever used -b 19:31:09 <Yexo> actually it's -b+ 19:31:48 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Guest4728 19:31:50 <Terkhen> hmm... I wonder if we should do a post regarding town control specs before implementing further stuff 19:31:50 *** Chris_Booth [~chris@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:32:12 *** Chris_Booth [~chris@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:40 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:34:04 <frosch123> Terkhen: first, we should have an idea what to do at all :) 19:34:44 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 19:35:27 <frosch123> other than that, i guess everyone who would comment constructively is already in this channel 19:35:38 <Terkhen> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control <--- the callbacks here (except maybe town found cost and size) make sense, but I'm not so sure about the variables 19:36:08 <Terkhen> when would be the Cargo requirement information callback called? 19:36:14 <Terkhen> I don't understand that one 19:36:20 <frosch123> yes, the variables are questionable (esp. the city/town difference). but that cargo-requirement callback is questionable as well 19:36:27 <frosch123> esp. due to ai information 19:36:56 <frosch123> Terkhen: it's a gui callback 19:37:02 <frosch123> called by the window and by ais 19:37:14 <Terkhen> hmm... so it is called for each cargo with a town effect? or for all cargos? 19:37:15 <frosch123> the real decision is made by the growth callback 19:37:40 <frosch123> but the idea is, that cargo delivery does not necessarily affect town growth, but could also affect industries, houses or objects in the town 19:38:18 <frosch123> Terkhen: iirc for all cargos 19:39:05 <frosch123> but the information can become quite complex for display :p 19:39:12 <Terkhen> it will be difficult if not impossible to make available to AIs all of that info :) 19:39:40 <frosch123> that is the easy part 19:39:58 <Terkhen> because if town growth can access town variables then it can for example depend on the number of industries of type X around the town 19:40:03 <frosch123> just add an api function which takes a town and a cargo as paramater, which returns the requirements 19:40:31 <frosch123> oh, you mean general growth information 19:40:43 <frosch123> yes, that will be difficult like stockpile limits :) 19:41:20 <frosch123> a grf may as well decide to not make towns grow at all 19:42:16 <Terkhen> yes 19:42:23 <frosch123> but, i guess knowing the exact growth requirements is actually not that important 19:42:44 <frosch123> the ai only transports cargos anyway, so a hint what cargo might be useful, should be enough 19:42:55 <frosch123> or, should an ai start to fund industries to make the town grow? 19:43:20 *** Chris_Booth [~chris@46.68.76.19] has joined #openttd 19:43:21 <Terkhen> not really, that would probably need specific support in the AI for that newgrf 19:43:45 <Terkhen> using towneffects for knowing what cargos have an effect should be enough 19:43:56 <Terkhen> then the callback could give a hint about each towneffect 19:44:03 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Chris_Booth[ph] 19:44:28 <frosch123> towneffect is not that useful 19:44:50 <frosch123> it basically has no meaning at all, it only controls various kinds of sideeffects 19:44:54 <frosch123> like subsidaries 19:45:01 <frosch123> subisides? 19:45:10 <frosch123> subsidies? 19:45:40 <Terkhen> hmm... maybe this needs a new cargo variable, that would be responsible for giving the town growth hint 19:45:44 <Terkhen> subsidies 19:45:57 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chris@46.68.76.19] has quit [] 19:46:03 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@46.68.76.19] has joined #openttd 19:46:10 <Terkhen> but using a cargo variable creates a big mess between town growth and industry newgrfs :) 19:46:57 <Terkhen> so it is probably not a great option 19:47:00 *** Guest4728 is now known as Chris_Booth 19:47:31 <planetmaker> cargo delivered and transported, thus what's going on on stations would not interfer with industries directly 19:49:08 <frosch123> maybe it would also be a good idea to clean up the subsidy mess in ottd 19:49:25 <Terkhen> why is it a mess? 19:49:29 <frosch123> and to detect what stuff is accepted by industries or houses 19:50:04 <frosch123> Terkhen: the town effect defines whether the subsidy is for town->town, industry->town or industry->industry transportation 19:50:30 <JVassie> hmm 19:50:36 <frosch123> depending on that it will search for an industry, which produces/accepts it 19:50:43 <JVassie> is it possible to change a station tile based on where abouts a train is within the platform? 19:50:48 <frosch123> or for a big town (independent whether it actually accepts it) 19:50:51 <JVassie> or on its 'ready to depart' state? 19:51:08 <frosch123> JVassie: the station knows the pbs reservation stage 19:51:17 <Terkhen> hmm... 19:51:25 <frosch123> so you can open doors when a train reserves a path into the station 19:51:27 <Terkhen> I start to understand the mess :) 19:51:46 <JVassie> frosch123: you know how stations now have a somewhat built in PBS signal? 19:52:00 <Terkhen> it would be better to scan industries and towns to know for sure what subsidies can be created instead of relying on that property 19:52:02 <frosch123> Terkhen: that mess is likely ottd specific. i guess ttdp just dropped subsidies support for new cargos 19:52:21 <Terkhen> yes, I checked towneffects on the specs, this behavior is openttd specific 19:53:16 <Terkhen> after fixing subsidies town effects could be deprecated in favour of something more flexible 19:53:51 <frosch123> JVassie: the station does not know where the train is exactly, whether it is slowing, loading/accelerating, speeding up, or just passing through 19:54:20 <frosch123> Terkhen: when the subsidy thing is removed, town effects could be used for growth again 19:54:32 <frosch123> e.g. take a look at the ttdpatch towngrowth switches 19:55:00 <frosch123> they can define cargo requirements for some default cargos 19:55:02 <JVassie> how about at the point when the train sets a PBS reservation leavign the station? 19:55:10 <JVassie> will the station know at that point? 19:55:34 <frosch123> JVassie: it only knows about the reservation of station tiles 19:55:51 <frosch123> enable the "show track reservation" in advanced settings, and see yourself 19:56:04 <JVassie> hmm ok 19:56:19 <JVassie> how does the built in signal work then out of itnerest? 19:56:22 <JVassie> *interest 19:59:04 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@46.68.76.19] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:59:44 <Terkhen> frosch123: then we would need a way to assign a "growth value" to each towneffect 20:02:06 <supermop> So I haven't really been paying attention the last few months 20:02:09 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-074-202-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:14 <supermop> what is new 20:02:17 <frosch123> Terkhen: there already is 20:02:32 <frosch123> cargos have such a property 20:03:40 <Terkhen> but that is a multiplier for the cargo, not for the town effect itself 20:04:30 <frosch123> hmm, where would that be needed? 20:05:46 *** CoreUK [5169d783@207.192.75.252] has joined #openttd 20:05:55 <CoreUK> hello 20:06:04 <Terkhen> hi CoreUK 20:06:27 <JVassie> planetmaker: found the switch :p 20:06:30 <CoreUK> me and my friends are having trouble setting up a server 20:06:32 <JVassie> } switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, bulk_wagon_coal_year_switch, build_year < 1970) { 20:06:32 <JVassie> 1: bulk_wagon_coal_early_group; bulk_wagon_coal_modern_group; 20:06:32 <JVassie> } 20:06:36 <JVassie> pretty simple tbh :D 20:06:37 <CoreUK> are there some common problems ? 20:06:57 <Terkhen> frosch123: cargo multipliers for town growth would be like vehicle specific costs, multipliers for the town effect would be like basecosts 20:07:00 <CoreUK> we have port forward on 3979, ubuntu 11.04, openttd version: 1.1.1 20:07:24 <frosch123> Terkhen: but who would use them besides the growth callback? 20:07:31 <Terkhen> CoreUK: first try http://www.canyouseeme.org/ to see if the port was forwarded correctly 20:07:48 <Terkhen> frosch123: oh, true, you can multiply them by whatever you want at the callback :P 20:08:09 <Terkhen> a global multiplier is not needed then 20:08:10 <CoreUK> success on 3979 20:08:27 <Terkhen> CoreUK: does your server appear on http://servers.openttd.org/? 20:08:47 <CoreUK> Terkhen: yes 20:09:09 <Terkhen> hmmm... then the server is probably set correctly 20:09:18 <CoreUK> http://www.openttd.org/en/server/45467 20:09:42 <Chris_Booth> then you need to load a map and play 20:09:50 <CoreUK> we did 20:09:51 <glx> if you see it on the site it's started 20:09:57 <JVassie> i can see it on the server list 20:09:59 <CoreUK> other people cannot connect 20:10:15 <Chris_Booth> then its there issue not yours 20:10:23 <Chris_Booth> can they see other servers? 20:10:23 <CoreUK> ok 20:10:28 <CoreUK> yes 20:10:41 <Chris_Booth> you can give then the IP to your server 20:10:53 <Chris_Booth> 81.105.215.131:3979 20:11:00 <Chris_Booth> and they can manualy add you 20:11:05 <Terkhen> CoreUK: I can connect fine to that server 20:11:18 <CoreUK> ok 20:11:18 <planetmaker> JVassie: sure, it's no rocket science ;-) 20:11:20 <CoreUK> hmm 20:11:24 <CoreUK> it was 20:11:33 <Terkhen> my guess is that it is not a server side issue 20:11:35 <CoreUK> possible connection loss no data received in x seconds 20:11:45 <CoreUK> then a disconnect 20:11:50 <glx> wifi ? 20:11:52 <planetmaker> bad connection 20:11:54 <JVassie> planetmaker: instead of the spritegroup i reference as the graphics set 20:11:59 <JVassie> i specificy the switch name, correct? 20:12:18 <andythenorth> it's more interesting here when people are doing stuff :P 20:12:24 <JVassie> :p 20:12:26 <CoreUK> ok guys thank you 20:12:33 * andythenorth states the obvious ;) 20:12:34 <JVassie> andythenorth: ever since I started being active! 20:12:36 <Chris_Booth> I am on your server now CoreUK 20:12:40 <Chris_Booth> its fine 20:12:58 <planetmaker> JVassie: yes 20:13:05 <Terkhen> frosch123: maybe the town growth callback should avoid using specific cargos and rely on town effects only 20:13:05 <CoreUK> Chris_Booth: ok thank you 20:13:30 <CoreUK> Chris_Booth, Terkhen, thank you I will ask they check out stuff at their end, regards 20:13:32 <JVassie> planetmaker: awesoem thanks 20:13:45 <andythenorth> hmm 20:13:47 <andythenorth> cargos and towns 20:14:13 <Terkhen> meh, now I have to do something boring :P 20:14:28 <andythenorth> the cleaner interface is to rely on town effect flag on cargos 20:14:47 <andythenorth> it's reliable, but makes for quite a 1-dimensional gameplay effect 20:15:06 <andythenorth> so towns only see cargos with flag set, and all those cargos are same 20:15:16 <andythenorth> it's not very interesting 20:15:17 *** CoreUK [5169d783@207.192.75.252] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:15:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: there are multiple town effects, not one 20:15:47 <JVassie> planetmaker: works like a dream <3 20:15:53 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the town growth callback will take care of that linearity :) 20:15:56 <planetmaker> sweet sweet. 20:16:02 <Terkhen> once we know what it should do :P 20:16:05 <planetmaker> JVassie: you're building up expectations :-P 20:16:08 <JVassie> checking off the features here :p 20:16:14 <JVassie> in what regard? 20:16:20 <andythenorth> how are town sets decoupled from specific industry sets? 20:16:23 <planetmaker> next week we expect the first release :-P 20:16:24 <andythenorth> I can't see it 20:16:26 <JVassie> lol 20:16:36 <JVassie> im using graphics someoen drew back in 2005 :D 20:16:43 <planetmaker> so? 20:16:51 <Terkhen> andythenorth: town growth callback should IMO use only town effects 20:16:59 <planetmaker> JVassie: digital art doesn't rot ;-) 20:17:00 <JVassie> i invented a 2nd livery to test the override :) 20:17:03 <andythenorth> the existing town effects? 20:17:05 <Terkhen> then the specific cargos don't matter 20:17:07 <andythenorth> or some new scheme of lables? 20:17:10 <JVassie> by drawign a green stripe :D 20:17:30 <JVassie> next thing is livery refits 20:17:40 <JVassie> and random liveries 20:17:47 <JVassie> then ill move onto MUs :) 20:17:59 <Terkhen> andythenorth: in which regard would labels be better? 20:18:13 <andythenorth> not sure 20:18:22 <andythenorth> how many current TE flags are there? 20:18:24 <andythenorth> 2-3? 20:18:26 <Terkhen> hmm... a cargo can't have two town effects at once 20:18:38 <andythenorth> the existing system is a PITA when I tried to work with it 20:18:41 <Terkhen> what are TE flags? 20:18:45 <andythenorth> Town Effect 20:18:51 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:18:54 * andythenorth will look at actual spec instead of guessing :P 20:19:11 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Cargos#Substitute_type_and_multiplier_for_town_growth_.2818.2C_19.29 <-- 20:19:34 <Terkhen> "how many" is not an issue, empty slots could be added 20:19:54 <andythenorth> but it would need to be defined what they do 20:19:58 <andythenorth> classes or labels or such 20:19:59 <Terkhen> heh, that's where labels start making sense, right? :P 20:20:17 <andythenorth> in the current spec, 05 is TTDP only isn't it? 20:20:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: labels have also a backdraw... if not well prepared. 20:20:24 <frosch123> if you have to many labels, you tie the town growth to the industry grf 20:20:29 <andythenorth> I can see 20:20:32 <andythenorth> I don't like it 20:20:33 <frosch123> which is the only one providing those labels 20:20:41 <planetmaker> Like railtype labels happily defined in each grf another one 20:20:51 <andythenorth> I don't like tying town growth to industry grf at all 20:20:58 <andythenorth> but there's no clean interface I can think of 20:21:07 <planetmaker> town persistant storage 20:21:11 <andythenorth> cargos need to be defined by industry grf (is my assumption) 20:21:17 <planetmaker> that's already 65% there 20:21:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Cargos#Substitute_type_and_multiplier_for_town_growth_.2818.2C_19.29 <- we discussed earlier, that the right column has to vanish, before it can become useful 20:21:25 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:21:33 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 20:21:38 <andythenorth> ok 20:21:40 <andythenorth> hmm 20:21:45 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that still needs that the town growth newgrf and the industry newgrf work along 20:21:54 <planetmaker> of course 20:21:55 <andythenorth> the assumption is that industry + town growth should *not* be coupled, yes / no? 20:22:07 <andythenorth> there's no case for saying they are 'economy' 20:22:10 <Terkhen> which is fine if someone wants to do it, but we should also have a way of working transparently 20:22:16 <andythenorth> and requiring to define all economy in one grf? 20:22:21 <planetmaker> yes... hm. 20:22:32 <Terkhen> andythenorth: they can be coupled if you want too; as tightly as you want 20:22:52 <planetmaker> Terkhen: special grfs slots: we could define one in a CTT type similar to the station delivery thing 20:22:55 <Terkhen> but IMO we should have a clean way of working without knowledge of what is the other newgrf doing 20:22:59 <andythenorth> well houses are quite decoupled from town growth nicely as I understand it 20:23:09 <andythenorth> so we don't need to think about house sets 20:23:13 <planetmaker> the 0xFEFFFFFF range allows to pre-define some of those 20:23:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: everything with access to town persistent storage can modify town growth :P 20:23:39 <andythenorth> there will need to be conventions 20:23:39 <Terkhen> as long as the town growth grf is made that way 20:23:56 <andythenorth> otherwise you're just coding something that newgrf authors will turn into a cluster fuck :D 20:23:57 <Terkhen> hmm... not really, they can't write in the register of the town growth grf 20:24:08 <Terkhen> but the town growth grf could check the register of the house/industry newgrf 20:24:11 <planetmaker> mostly it needs a indeed well-defined and specific-grf independent interface 20:24:18 <Terkhen> yes, that 20:24:19 <planetmaker> at least that's desirable 20:24:34 <planetmaker> railtypes unfortunately don't have that with vehicles 20:24:38 <Terkhen> so the point is: why are town effects not enough in this regard? 20:24:51 <planetmaker> well... not as good as I'd like, but I've no better idea. anyway... 20:25:03 <andythenorth> this is more complicated when I try and consider YACD 20:25:07 <andythenorth> or YACD-alike 20:25:12 <Terkhen> why? 20:25:41 <andythenorth> because a town may demand certain cargos for growth, but the industry grf doesn't locate destinations for them and/or YACD doesn't route any cargo there 20:25:43 <Terkhen> because YACD has no support for customizing its behaviour regarding newgrf cargos? 20:25:48 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 20:25:54 <andythenorth> it's a lot of stuff that can go wrong 20:26:06 <planetmaker> Terkhen: in principle I could want to make the growth callback depend the amount and type of cargo. Thus an enhanced town growth effect 20:26:06 <Terkhen> well, that's IMO an issue of YACD that can also happen with standard town growth 20:26:14 <andythenorth> so we ignore YACD 20:26:31 <planetmaker> but basically defining towns newgrf-able would IMHO superseed the cargo's property 20:26:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: houses might also want to access the cargo history 20:26:37 <Terkhen> andythenorth: not ignore it, but ignore known issues 20:26:38 <andythenorth> for both ECS and FIRS (and I think TAI), the industry grf has to take care of providing town cargo sink industries 20:26:56 <andythenorth> so it would be unwise for towns to demand specific cargos for growth 20:27:00 <Terkhen> planetmaker: so it would depend on specific cargos? 20:27:06 <frosch123> e.g. they might want to build different houses depending on whether the town deals a lot with valueables or rather with iron ore or steel 20:27:20 <Terkhen> oh, I never thought of that :O 20:27:21 <frosch123> and it makes no sense to tie those things to a town effect 20:27:29 <andythenorth> Towns would have no way of guaranteeing that a required cargo can be delivered :o 20:27:37 <planetmaker> Terkhen: the town could itself define the cargos it wants... but indeed... specific cargos is an issue 20:27:41 <andythenorth> because they can't control the building of specific houses or industries 20:27:51 <andythenorth> so no guarantee of a destination 20:27:59 <Terkhen> andythenorth: industry newgrfs have no way of guaranteeing that their cargos can be transported, because they have no control over vehicle newgrfs 20:28:03 <planetmaker> so... it has access to a town's CTT which only gives back anonymously the growth cargos? 20:28:15 <andythenorth> Terkhen: that just reintroduces labels :P 20:28:24 <planetmaker> oh no 20:28:29 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that might be an option, but we need also a way that is completely independent of present cargos 20:28:33 <frosch123> so, imo there are some cases where a grf might be interested in a specific cargo, and not in classes 20:28:42 <frosch123> just because noone defined those classes in advance 20:28:43 <planetmaker> of course 20:28:48 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has left #openttd [Leaving] 20:28:54 <andythenorth> I wonder if the destination should write to a specific set of registers the town can use for growth 20:29:18 <andythenorth> how much storage is there? 20:29:24 <planetmaker> 64k 20:29:27 <planetmaker> dword 20:29:32 <planetmaker> or? 20:29:36 <Terkhen> frosch123: true, it should be able to access cargos by label 20:29:36 <andythenorth> so how many slots? 65,356 or so? 20:29:38 <planetmaker> terkhen knows :-P 20:29:42 <Wolf01> 'night 20:29:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:29:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: pools are limited to exactly 64k 20:29:57 <planetmaker> at least most 20:29:59 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage_accessed_by_GRFID <--- the specs know 20:30:19 <Terkhen> planetmaker: right now OpenTTD can have up to 0xFF000 persistent storages 20:30:39 <planetmaker> he... that's even more 20:30:39 <andythenorth> I'm wondering if we could reserve 256 specific slots for town effects 20:30:48 <Terkhen> they are limited to 24 bits (as vehicles are) 20:30:50 <andythenorth> hmm 20:30:55 * andythenorth is thinking out loud 20:30:56 <michi_cc> YACD could force a demand link for each growth cargo (if accepted), just like it is implemented for industries right now. 20:31:00 <Terkhen> most pools only use 16 bits 20:31:18 * andythenorth thinks 20:31:26 <andythenorth> for the cases I was envisaging 20:31:36 <andythenorth> it's not necessarily specific cargo delivered that should count 20:31:37 <michi_cc> Of course, some people will complain about too many destinations of those cargos only have very few producers. 20:31:47 <andythenorth> it might be a specific industry receiving some input cargo 20:31:58 <frosch123> so, maybe we can agree on town effect for growth, and specific cargo for other visual stuff? 20:32:03 <andythenorth> whether that cargo has town effect is up to the receiving industry 20:32:10 <planetmaker> nice wiki page, Terkhen :-) 20:32:44 * andythenorth feels like he is onto something but can't quite write it down 20:33:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: town effect is a cargo property. Not industry 20:33:15 <andythenorth> not really 20:33:23 <andythenorth> consider electricity 20:33:30 <andythenorth> or wood 20:33:36 *** CIA-10 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has quit [] 20:33:38 <planetmaker> yes? 20:33:56 *** CIA-2 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd 20:34:23 <andythenorth> in PBI, wood delivered to a fuel depot might be town growth 20:34:32 <andythenorth> but not if delivered to a sawmill in a town radius 20:34:54 <andythenorth> coal to power station could be town growth 20:34:54 <planetmaker> eh? 20:35:02 <andythenorth> but not coal to steel mill 20:35:18 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has joined #openttd 20:35:18 <andythenorth> town growth shouldn't be tied to specific cargos 20:35:46 <Terkhen> frosch123: do you mean using both? 20:36:11 * andythenorth needs to consider default case (no industry newgrf) 20:36:15 <Terkhen> I'm now convinced that specific cargos must be present 20:36:32 <Terkhen> but I'm not sure if town effects are enough for handling "generic" town growth 20:36:48 <frosch123> imo it is not only about town growth 20:36:58 <welshdragon> Gentlemen, I have a server on ubuntu, can I get openttd to look at a seperate config file? 20:36:59 <frosch123> there are various other reasons to check for a cargo 20:37:29 <frosch123> welshdragon: there is a command line option for that 20:37:49 <Terkhen> frosch123: for example? 20:38:01 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:38:28 <welshdragon> frosch123, is it a startup command? 20:38:29 <planetmaker> like the difference between manchaster and london 20:38:34 <frosch123> 22:27] <frosch123> house grfs might want to build different houses depending on whether the town deals a lot with valueables or rather with iron ore or steel 20:38:59 <frosch123> welshdragon: yes, run with option --help to see what is available 20:39:04 <Terkhen> yes, I was thinking only about the town growth callback 20:39:12 <planetmaker> mining town vs. commercial centre vs. farming "town" 20:39:23 <Terkhen> and that house grf would be awesome :P 20:39:34 <andythenorth> we definitely envisage standalone grfs for town control? 20:39:36 <frosch123> of course you could also try to attach that to industry types 20:39:39 <Terkhen> so... maybe a 60+ var with cargo label as parameter? 20:39:51 <Yexo> frosch123: so something like station var 69 but for towns? 20:39:52 <frosch123> like primary or secondary industries, but that is really up to the grf 20:39:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth: would IMHO make sense to some extend 20:40:06 <planetmaker> much better scenario control possible than mixing it with houses 20:40:07 <supermop> like those big silk drying towers in san giamino for a town that handles a lot of textile? 20:40:16 <frosch123> Yexo: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control 61 + 62 20:40:25 <planetmaker> meanwhile I don't fancy too much the close mixture of cargos and industries :-P 20:40:30 <planetmaker> but... :-) 20:40:41 <frosch123> also see 44 + 47 20:40:49 <frosch123> 44 - 47 20:41:08 <welshdragon> oh, bugger, I can't start another dedicated server while running a dedicated 20:41:09 * andythenorth does puzzle 20:41:17 <frosch123> they were meant to somehow categorise the town without knowing about particular industries or whatever 20:41:36 <planetmaker> hm... yes 20:41:49 <frosch123> sure, they could also be used for towngrowth 20:41:49 <andythenorth> it seems quite horrible to make the town have to know about n cargos from those already defined 20:41:59 <andythenorth> but to get those effects described, there's no alternative 20:42:27 <andythenorth> how many cargo labels do we already have? 20:42:28 <planetmaker> it's less horible as it sounds, I think 20:42:45 <andythenorth> I guess vehicle grfs deal with it 20:42:46 <planetmaker> frosch123: esp. 61 sounds exactly like the common interface 20:43:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: a grf can have 255 labels in the cargo trans table 20:43:02 <planetmaker> vehicle grfs are only on the receiving end, they're easy 20:43:21 <Terkhen> and 62 too :P 20:43:35 <andythenorth> I would *not* want to be an author testing a town control gr 20:43:36 <welshdragon> can I tell openTTD to use port 3978 or something? 20:43:48 <Terkhen> welshdragon: edit your openttd.cfg and change the port 20:44:01 * andythenorth wonders 20:44:11 <andythenorth> is there not some way we could do it simpler for once? 20:44:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: if the author makes it too complicated, it is his own fault 20:44:33 <Terkhen> what would be simpler than towneffects? 20:44:41 <Terkhen> IMO they might be too simple :P 20:44:58 <Belugas> pick a microphone, plug it in the computer and say "Openttd, use port xxxx instead of yyyy" 20:45:08 <Terkhen> :D 20:45:36 <planetmaker> a sensitive enough accelerometer will do, too 20:45:36 <frosch123> Belugas: but you have to say it with a very clear dutch accent 20:45:48 <Belugas> hehehe 20:46:51 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:46:52 <Terkhen> after this chat I'm convinced about vars 60-66 20:47:40 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 20:47:41 <andythenorth> yarp 20:48:48 <planetmaker> he. During road reconstruction: no growth :-P 20:49:19 <planetmaker> hm... with growth control there, TAI could actually work... 20:49:28 <planetmaker> if growth callback could just fail then 20:51:07 <Terkhen> yes, pikka should check that document too 20:51:17 <Terkhen> not sure if he checked it before I started being interested on this 20:52:19 <welshdragon> Ok, can somebody (other than frosch123) tell me how to start a server which reads a config file in another directory? 20:52:47 <frosch123> Terkhen: the cargo history has a draw back though 20:53:14 <frosch123> it requires that the stuff is actually serviced, or you cannot detect the presence of secondary industries producing steel 20:53:39 <frosch123> so, maybe one would rather know potential production of cargos instead of actual production 20:53:42 <Terkhen> welshdragon: what else do you need to know? 20:53:51 <welshdragon> Terkhen, nothing 20:53:56 <welshdragon> :) 20:54:01 <Terkhen> ok 20:54:06 <Terkhen> frosch123: hmm... can we know that? 20:54:25 <frosch123> you know the output cargos of industries 20:54:29 <andythenorth> hence industry writes to the town 20:54:42 <andythenorth> but that means industry sets have to know about town growth spec 20:54:42 <frosch123> you could e.g. count the number of industries producing goods or something like that 20:55:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, we do not want to require industry sets to supply additional data 20:55:13 <Terkhen> but we would not know the amounts 20:55:17 <frosch123> there is plenty available already 20:55:33 <andythenorth> hmm 20:55:39 <frosch123> Terkhen: you only know the amounts, if they are actually serviced 20:55:56 <andythenorth> no electric pony for you then :P 20:56:14 <welshdragon> nobody? :) 20:57:24 <Terkhen> frosch123: hmm... so number of industries that produce/accept the cargo label passed by parameter? 20:58:11 <frosch123> maybe something like that. 20:58:25 <frosch123> however currently all variables expect a index to the cargo trans table 20:58:28 <frosch123> no direct label 20:58:57 <Terkhen> hmmm... how does that work? 20:59:03 <Terkhen> only for the newgrf using it? 20:59:20 <Terkhen> would be the same for town growth newgrfs anyways, they would need their cargo table too 20:59:26 <frosch123> the cargo translation table of the grf accessing the variable 20:59:46 <frosch123> same as for the station cargo variable 21:01:16 <welshdragon> openttd@welshdragon:~/Chipp_v13_5$ openttd -D -c /home/openttd/Chipp_v13.5/openttd.cfg -d net=0 21:01:35 <welshdragon> will that find the config file specified? 21:02:26 <Terkhen> should this variable have a towneffect version too? 21:03:24 <frosch123> maybe for consistency, no idea 21:03:32 <andythenorth> mm 21:03:54 <Terkhen> makes sense for consistency, yes 21:05:01 <andythenorth> town growth gives me a headache :) 21:05:08 <welshdragon> am I being ignored? :( 21:06:04 <Chris_Booth> yes welshdragon 21:06:44 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:06:51 <Yexo> welshdragon: you keep asking questions you can easily find the answer to yourself in a few minutes 21:08:01 <welshdragon> Yexo, I prefer to ask a person instead of reading 21:08:50 <Yexo> and I prefer to only spend time answering questions when the person asking them has already tried to find the answer himself 21:08:59 <Chris_Booth> welshdragon: what I think Yexo is trying to say is this isn't a help line to walk you through setting up a server 21:09:02 <Yexo> for your last question: yes, that should work 21:09:09 <welshdragon> it doesn't 21:14:48 <Terkhen> frosch123: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control <--- something like this I guess 21:17:27 <frosch123> yeah, i guess there is no point in counting houses 21:17:48 <frosch123> esp. as the house cargos are not known properly 21:17:52 <glx> welshdragon: and if you move -D after -c ? 21:18:17 <Terkhen> ok :) 21:18:25 <Ammler> welshdragon: why don't you simply try? 21:18:35 <Terkhen> I'll start with subsidies anyways 21:18:54 <Terkhen> nice mess :P 21:20:09 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has left #openttd [Leaving] 21:21:49 <frosch123> :) 21:22:47 <Terkhen> after that I guess that it would make sense to implement support for listing all cargos sharing the same town effect instead of showing a single one at the town gui 21:23:07 <andythenorth> meh 21:23:13 <andythenorth> town effect should be abolished :P 21:23:28 <Terkhen> what should be used instead of it? 21:23:33 <andythenorth> keeping it is going to messy 21:23:43 <andythenorth> town growth will be the preserve of the town grf 21:23:48 <Terkhen> and why is it going to be messy? 21:23:59 <andythenorth> keeping town effect implies industry sets can control town growth 21:24:16 <Terkhen> a town growth newgrf can ignore town effect if it chooses to 21:24:59 <andythenorth> I know it will work 21:25:01 <andythenorth> but it's messy 21:25:13 <andythenorth> industry grfs will be setting properties that are then ignored 21:25:18 <andythenorth> it just makes everything harder to work with 21:25:59 <Terkhen> they don't have to be ignored, other town growth newgrfs could use them too 21:26:09 <Terkhen> it's a way of providing a hint to the town newgrf 21:26:28 <andythenorth> hmm 21:26:33 <andythenorth> maybe I just got up too early :) 21:26:42 <Terkhen> honestly I don't think a cleaner way is possible; with communication you also get this kind of problems :) 21:26:55 <andythenorth> this seems like it's going to be heading the same way as inflation, and economy 21:27:04 <Terkhen> what way? 21:27:08 <andythenorth> inflation is broken so sensible newgrfs ignore it 21:27:26 <andythenorth> trying to make an industry set work with economies is near impossible 21:27:35 <andythenorth> so industry grfs over-ride it 21:27:43 <andythenorth> or ignore it 21:27:52 <frosch123> a industry newgrf should just not care about towngrowth 21:28:05 <andythenorth> in which case why leave a messy bit of spec in place? 21:28:46 <andythenorth> maybe I can make the case better another day :) 21:28:53 <andythenorth> don't let me delay the writing of code ;) 21:28:56 <Terkhen> because town growth newgrfs might want to assign different effects to different cargos, without having to rely on specific labels 21:29:10 <andythenorth> but then industry authors are going to complain 21:29:11 <Terkhen> andythenorth: don't worry, I have to fix a big mess before coding variables 21:29:41 <andythenorth> I only set town growth effect because I have to currently 21:29:51 <andythenorth> with town growth, I wouldn't set those flags 21:30:04 <Terkhen> why not? :/ 21:30:09 <andythenorth> there's no point, the effect is completely indeterministic 21:30:11 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 21:30:19 <Terkhen> maybe it is because I'm sleepy already, but I don't understand your point 21:30:37 <andythenorth> by setting the flag, the industry author is trying to control something that is outside their domain 21:30:43 <Terkhen> it is not more indeterministic than the rest of interactions between different newgrfs IMO 21:30:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: you should set the "food" effect if the cargo supplies houses 21:30:52 * andythenorth is also sleepy and may be explaining badly 21:30:55 <frosch123> you should not care whether it makes towns grow 21:31:18 <andythenorth> I don't want to care at all :) 21:31:25 <andythenorth> I want to not have to care about those flags 21:32:01 <andythenorth> anyways, it's not about me :P 21:32:10 <andythenorth> and I'm sure you understand the actual issues better than me 21:32:12 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:33:12 *** ksf [~ksf@c171253.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #openttd 21:33:40 <Terkhen> hmm... I can't think of a way that does not need setting some property for cargos 21:33:57 <Terkhen> except relying only on cargo labels 21:34:13 <frosch123> night 21:34:21 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fef75.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:22 * andythenorth bed too 21:34:23 <planetmaker> night frosch123 21:34:28 <Terkhen> good night frosch and andythenorth 21:34:29 <planetmaker> and g'night andythenorth 21:34:35 <andythenorth> Terkhen: good luck solving it ;) 21:34:48 <Terkhen> I can't fix it if I don't understand the issue :) 21:34:52 <andythenorth> relying on labels *might* just be enough 21:34:56 <Terkhen> let's talk about this again other day :P 21:34:56 <andythenorth> but anyway - bed for me 21:34:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:37:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:38:16 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it suddenly was clear to me, might not be able to explain it though :P 21:38:26 <Terkhen> :D 21:38:35 <andythenorth> town effect should be preserved, but disabled if a town-control grf is loaded 21:38:52 <andythenorth> that way it's very enforced in the spec about responsibilities of different authors 21:38:57 <andythenorth> but doesn't break default situation 21:39:17 <andythenorth> otherwise town grf and industry grf authors are going to have a horrible time 21:39:29 <planetmaker> probably 21:39:41 <andythenorth> I already have enough discussions about 'please change class on xyz to support my town / vehicle set' 21:40:01 <andythenorth> industry authors are going to bitch at town authors and vice versa 21:40:02 <Terkhen> buf if town effects are disabled, that means that a town grf should be able to replicate the default behavior without using town effects 21:40:24 <andythenorth> 'please set town effect growth on ECS cargo xyz so I don't have to bother checking a lot of cargos' 21:40:24 <Terkhen> how will it know what cargos should affect town growth as passengers do without specific support to industry newgrfs? 21:40:33 <andythenorth> check for label PASS 21:40:38 <andythenorth> it's not going anywhere :P 21:40:40 <Terkhen> that will fail for tourists 21:40:44 <andythenorth> so check the class 21:41:09 <andythenorth> those interfaces can't change that much, or all vehicle support breaks. As endlessly discussed :P 21:41:20 <andythenorth> :D 21:41:30 <andythenorth> maybe a bad idea, but it seems like some leap is needed 21:41:34 <andythenorth> we can't have all of everything 21:41:39 <andythenorth> something has to give 21:41:39 <Terkhen> hmmm... you can reliabily check for passengers and mail with classes, but I'm not so sure about stuff like water and food 21:41:56 <andythenorth> there are too many nodes in this network - the communication overhead is too high :P 21:41:58 <Terkhen> I'm not against deprecating town effects, but there must be some alternative 21:42:07 <andythenorth> towns have to explicitly check for cargos 21:42:29 <Terkhen> hmmm... it's more consistent, yes 21:42:31 <andythenorth> same as vehicle sets doing graphic support 21:42:34 <andythenorth> it's just a varaction 2 21:42:38 <andythenorth> not a trauma 21:42:59 <supermop> wait 21:43:07 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.101] has joined #openttd 21:43:08 <andythenorth> wait! 21:43:08 <supermop> is town control happening? 21:43:11 <andythenorth> ish 21:43:15 <andythenorth> if the spec can be made sane 21:43:17 <supermop> im so out of it 21:43:20 <Terkhen> supermop: kinda 21:43:26 <andythenorth> and if Terkhen doesn't get bored of it ;) 21:43:31 <Terkhen> check the irc logs of the last 4 hours :P 21:43:36 <supermop> just started reading forums again after 2 onths 21:43:45 <andythenorth> Terkhen: sleep on it :P 21:43:48 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'll think about it, yes 21:43:55 <supermop> and i am never payig attention on irc because i am at work 21:44:00 <andythenorth> it doesn't have to be my suggestion, but something has to go somewhere 21:44:18 <andythenorth> anyway, for the second time, good night ;) 21:44:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:44:41 <Terkhen> supermop: I'm half asleep so I can only give you the super abbreviated version :P 21:45:11 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage_accessed_by_GRFID <--- town persistent storage has already happened 21:45:34 <Terkhen> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control <--- there are specs for callbacks and variables, but as you can see, they are being discussed 21:47:04 <Terkhen> I don't think there is anything about this at the forums, though... I'd prefer to have more clear specs before that 21:48:02 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 21:48:29 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:51:57 <Terkhen> good night 21:54:32 <supermop> cool 21:54:34 <supermop> later 21:56:49 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.67.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:26 *** CORE_UK [5169d783@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:02:15 <CORE_UK> hey guys. our group is wanting to set up some openttd servers anyone here with experience of this? 22:03:23 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has joined #openttd 22:04:05 *** hgnmu128_ [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.217] has joined #openttd 22:04:40 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:09:31 <planetmaker> good night 22:09:38 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:09:47 *** hgnmu128_ is now known as hgnmu128 22:13:26 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: TTW - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 22:18:17 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [] 22:19:31 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:09 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-013-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:24:15 <hgnmu128> Is there a way to soft-link from TT Wiki to NewGRF-Specs Wiki? 22:25:15 <JVassie> define soft-link? 22:26:34 <hgnmu128> Links that doesn't have a trailing arrow-like thingy, I guess. 22:27:15 <JVassie> dont think so 22:27:23 <JVassie> you either use [ ] or [[ ]] 22:27:30 <JVassie> and [[ ]] is internal only 22:27:44 <JVassie> unless you can setup a class of [ ] which doesnt display the arrow 22:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> how does wikipedia do this with the different language wikis? 22:28:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: those are different wikis 22:28:31 <hgnmu128> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/SandBox 22:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, exactly like the tt-wiki and the specs-wiki, or am i misinformed? 22:29:16 <hgnmu128> I meant the internal link. The domains may be a problem, won't they? 22:29:28 <planetmaker> and they'rehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pywikipediabot/interwiki.py <-- with something like that 22:29:38 <hgnmu128> Eddi: You're not misinformed, AFAICT 22:30:23 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: It is for different language projects, or so says the page. 22:31:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: like that yes. Though that they may contain the same content in different languages 22:31:44 <planetmaker> thus the same things are shown in the language links 22:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he means something like: "is it possible to do [[newgrf-specs:Somewhere]]?" 22:32:52 <JVassie> planetmaker: any examples in NML of a) livery refits and b) random liveries ? 22:33:24 <planetmaker> iirc not. But... what's the difference to a normal link? I see no detriment 22:33:30 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-103-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:34:07 <planetmaker> JVassie: yes/no and yes 22:34:25 <JVassie> i presuem the latter is for a wagon? 22:34:34 <planetmaker> best look at the flatbed wagon, I think. There you can refit the wagon to several things 22:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: imho same argument as against using absolute urls everywhere 22:35:23 <JVassie> thanks planetmaker 22:35:32 <JVassie> does that include random livery too i presume? 22:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: e.g. things like "what pages link here" could be calculated easier, cross-wiki 22:36:33 <planetmaker> JVassie: the flatbed wagons have randomly different cargo representations 22:36:41 <JVassie> lurvely :) 22:37:27 <planetmaker> and a true livery override can be found for all MU trains, they all have each their won pax/mail/valuable wagons 22:37:38 <planetmaker> fitting to the engines 22:38:02 <planetmaker> anyway.... I was about to sleep ;-) 22:39:01 <hgnmu128> I guess Owen should've made a different namespace, or maybe just a directory like structure, instead of different domains, but anyway it's just my opinion of course. 22:39:14 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-113-185.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:40:13 <Yexo> the different domain was intentional, and imo a good choice 22:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> btw.: what is this /wiki/ intermediate path for? it's just redundant 22:40:28 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 22:40:32 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: a default from mediawiki I believe 22:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc we had that discussion for openttd wiki before 22:40:35 <planetmaker> that's recommended setup for mediawikis, Eddi|zuHause 22:40:53 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 22:40:54 <planetmaker> bad things [TM] might happen if not 22:41:12 <planetmaker> quote from a not-bookmarked random mediawiki page 22:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no bad things happened on openttd wiki 22:42:00 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:44:00 <hgnmu128> OpenTTD wiki uses the redundant path, doesn't it? 22:44:07 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: try to have a wiki page named robots.txt (well, not very relevant to OTTD, but very relevant to wikipedia, which is probably why /wiki/ is recommended) 22:44:16 <hgnmu128> Oh it doesn't. 22:44:52 <hgnmu128> http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/Supprimer_les_portions_de_route_absurdes_lors_de_la_reconstruction/Fr 22:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: that's a handful of special cases that can be handled. 22:45:42 <hgnmu128> It redirects to the link sans /wiki, so openTTD wiki does have that structure internally. 22:47:14 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 22:49:46 <welshdragon> I want to cry :( 22:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hgnmu128: it was even worse initially, it used /wiki/index.php/ 22:52:21 <hgnmu128> I used to play OpenTTD since 0.5.x or something but didn't give the development or the Wiki a damn before 0.9.x or so. I feel sorry 'bout that. Missed loads of fun it seems. 22:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there was no 0.9.x ;) 22:53:09 <JVassie> hmm 22:53:25 <JVassie> would it be possible to draw a station tile that extends down over the foundations? 22:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: stations can define custom foundations 22:53:45 <JVassie> :o 22:53:55 <JVassie> new(ish) feature? 22:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> 2years-ish 22:54:09 <Yexo> no, very old 22:54:13 <JVassie> lol 22:54:17 <Yexo> hmm, that new? 22:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> might be older 22:54:57 <JVassie> flag 13? 22:55:48 <Yexo> august 2007 22:56:03 <JVassie> you just made Ameecher a happy man 22:56:21 <Yexo> IIRC one of mb's grfs already has such a feature 22:56:33 <Yexo> it shows some shops instead of brick foundations 22:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the unreleased ones 22:56:39 <Yexo> probably 22:57:00 <JVassie> yeah 22:57:06 <JVassie> Ameecher said that too 22:57:07 <JVassie> awesome 22:57:12 <JVassie> add it to the feature list 22:58:31 *** KouDy [~KouDy@pub212004071029.fx-hfc.datazug.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:44 *** Vadtec [vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:00:55 <hgnmu128> "there was no 0.9.x ;)" - Maybe x is large enough to get a carry into the 9... xD 23:01:40 <hgnmu128> Shouldn't this: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PoweredWagons be in the newgrf-specs wiki? 23:01:43 * JVassie trots off to ottd suggestions forum 23:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=59360 23:02:22 <JVassie> omg :o 23:02:24 <JVassie> nice 23:03:03 <JVassie> were planning similar :p 23:03:19 * JVassie wants to request a more advanced stations gui though :p 23:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "Wie kommt man denn an solche Bahnhöfe ???" - "An diesen hier? Du fÀhrst zu MBs Haus, und prÃŒ^Wredest so lange auf ihn ein, bis er endlich mal ein Release macht." 23:03:59 <hgnmu128> You Dutch? 23:04:41 <JVassie> thats german 23:04:43 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 23:05:14 <planetmaker> and a true answer to the question 23:05:46 <JVassie> planetmaker: going to bed soon? ;p 23:06:02 <JVassie> a /whois reveals a german IP i believe 23:06:12 <hgnmu128> The answer and question, both are in that German, is it? 23:06:14 <Yexo> <hgnmu128> Shouldn't this: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PoweredWagons be in the newgrf-specs wiki? <- that page looks more like tutorial than spec to me 23:06:19 <planetmaker> :-P 23:06:58 <hgnmu128> That's what they said they wanted in <to-write>. But going by the page name... 23:07:28 <Yexo> oh well, perhaps 23:07:30 <planetmaker> that's tutorial. not specs 23:08:18 <hgnmu128> Okay. 23:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=516022#p516022 <-- (TTDPatch) Screenshot is already from Nov 2006 23:11:05 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: You mean "it should be tutorial and it is", or "it has wrongly been made tutorial, you idiot"? 23:12:07 <planetmaker> hgnmu128: it's a tutorial and IMHO does not belong to the newgrf-specs wiki. Thus it's fine in the general tt-wiki 23:12:42 *** Vadtec [vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has joined #openttd 23:12:46 <planetmaker> apropos hgnmu128 I rolled back your one edit as you copied the info from a page which we have no explicit right to copy from 23:12:56 <planetmaker> Or did you ask the person you quoted for permission? 23:13:04 <hgnmu128> Thanks. And you talking in sleep? 23:13:27 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: I thought your name was Mr. Borstel, not Mr.Blunck. 23:13:52 <planetmaker> except that you miss part of my name, what's your point? 23:14:01 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19A51.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:16 <hgnmu128> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action3LiveryOverride 23:14:33 <hgnmu128> Owen has copied it too. 23:14:43 <hgnmu128> And I'm sorry for missing part of your name. :( 23:16:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19A51.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:16:51 * hgnmu128 slaps himself for being such and idiot. 23:19:06 *** Intexon_ [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 23:19:40 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:22:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19A51.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:40 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.217] has left #openttd [] 23:24:42 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.217] has joined #openttd 23:25:59 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: There has been a misunderstanding. I couldn't understand you were talking about the 'VarAction2 Towns' page, until later. 23:28:10 *** hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.217] has left #openttd [] 23:28:40 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 23:31:49 <CORE_UK> hey guys. our group is wanting to set up some openttd servers anyone here with experience of this? 23:34:38 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 23:34:52 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:36:14 *** ashledombos_ [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 23:36:48 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 23:42:00 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:43:25 <JVassie> hmm how about this, aye? 23:43:26 <JVassie> http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/platformsonbridge.png 23:48:20 *** welterde [welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:58:12 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:10 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]