Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:02:33 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.68] has joined #openttd 00:11:55 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 00:21:12 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC57DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:26:05 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 01:21:12 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-236.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:30:38 <core> when a server is set to autoclean companies what does that mean, any that are inactive? 01:31:07 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6d94:8aca:5ec1:bec8] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:33:10 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 01:51:12 *** Intexon_ [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Sorry, this packet wasn't exactly a winner] 02:16:54 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd 02:21:36 *** fjb is now known as Guest5054 02:21:37 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFC5C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:21:40 *** Guest5054 [~frank@p5DDFEA60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:25:33 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-208-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:59 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-088-076-111-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:31:35 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:58:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 04:55:04 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7461B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:25 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B757A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:59:00 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:06:47 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 05:07:25 *** yorick is now known as Guest5062 05:08:44 *** Guest2996 [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:47:29 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 06:06:21 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 06:07:28 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:19:03 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 06:25:30 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:30:34 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:37:04 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 06:37:04 <andythenorth> bonjour 06:46:44 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 06:47:46 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:47:49 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 06:53:44 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 07:01:02 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 07:01:02 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:52 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:12:19 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:15:48 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 07:16:42 <planetmaker> moin 07:16:53 <Zuu> Hello planetmaker 07:17:03 <planetmaker> hi Zuu :-) 07:17:12 <Zuu> and hello everyone else :-) 07:18:40 <planetmaker> core: http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_companies and http://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg 07:24:57 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:33:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BD6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:40:22 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 07:44:30 *** fazol [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 07:44:52 *** fazol [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 07:47:56 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B1079F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:00:08 <Terkhen> good morning 08:03:52 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc4f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:04:09 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 08:06:00 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.68] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 08:13:11 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 08:17:34 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:19:46 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B1079F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:42 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 08:29:42 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.67.111] has joined #openttd 08:32:53 <Wolf01> morning 08:33:05 <Alberth> morning 08:35:12 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 08:49:31 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:50:04 * andythenorth has some chips 08:51:09 * andythenorth ventures into new newgrf wiki for help 08:51:27 <andythenorth> woah 08:51:31 <andythenorth> sea of blue links :) 08:51:36 <andythenorth> in this page 08:51:51 <andythenorth> sorting tables by the action type is not the most usable 08:51:52 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page 08:51:58 <andythenorth> sorting alphabetically would be better 08:52:03 <andythenorth> left-right, row by row 08:53:27 * Terkhen agrees 08:53:42 <Terkhen> but having a table is a big improvement over the old sorting 08:53:47 <Terkhen> looks nice :) 08:57:28 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 08:58:59 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C2F3.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 09:02:49 <andythenorth> what happens if I remove some tiles from CHIPS? 09:03:00 <andythenorth> they have been disabled in menus for at least one release 09:03:03 <andythenorth> maybe two 09:03:04 <planetmaker> don't. Just make them unavailable 09:03:20 <planetmaker> and keep them there 09:03:25 <andythenorth> how to do that? 09:03:49 <planetmaker> climate availability = 0 09:03:58 <planetmaker> or similar 09:04:16 <planetmaker> callback for availability years = < 0 or so 09:04:59 <andythenorth> I am not seeing that in spec 09:05:44 <andythenorth> I have cb13 in use already 09:05:52 <andythenorth> but it's unacceptable 09:06:45 <andythenorth> Yexo: any suggestions? ^ 09:08:25 <Yexo> planetmaker: that's not possible 09:08:33 <Yexo> andythenorth: just overwrite them with new tiles 09:08:45 <Yexo> as long as the new tiles have the same (track / non-track) status there is no problem 09:08:45 <planetmaker> hm, not possible? :-( 09:09:03 <Yexo> planetmaker: the only way you can disable station tiles is by cb13, which shows them greyed out in the menu 09:09:13 <planetmaker> uh... 09:09:25 <planetmaker> good to know 09:09:44 <planetmaker> and interesting how transfering knowledge fails again and again in the newgrf domain ;-) 09:10:14 <Yexo> hmm? 09:11:02 <planetmaker> the climate availability trick to make something unavailable 09:11:04 <andythenorth> ok so when I add some new tiles, reuse those IDs 09:11:14 <andythenorth> until then, leave them 09:15:04 * andythenorth bbl 09:15:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 09:18:02 <frosch123> i wondered about sorting them alphabetically, but i also wanted to keep the grouping of vehicles 09:18:05 <frosch123> so, no idea :) 09:18:23 <frosch123> now they are ordered by id 09:19:15 <planetmaker> that's ok, albeit just ok. But we won't get many more IDs quickly, so... 09:20:17 <frosch123> luckily terkhen assigned a number to towns, else i would not have known where to put them :p 09:20:27 <Terkhen> :) 09:24:13 <Zuu> Hmm, regarding sorting of the table, if people want to find something specific, they can use search in their web browser? 09:25:12 <frosch123> someone know how to draw a "color gradient" in gimp (specifically in a layer mask) 09:25:54 <Zuu> It's like 7 years ago or so that Firefox/bird/.. introduced the search bar, and even before that, you could search in web sites.. :-) 09:26:18 <Zuu> frosch123: Use the gradient tool? 09:26:35 <frosch123> you mean "search the gradient tool"? 09:27:04 <Zuu> IIRC there is a gradient tool in GIMP. 09:28:09 <frosch123> oh, it is in the main tool palette, not in the menu :) 09:28:09 <Zuu> works fine here (also in the layer mask) 09:31:39 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:34:20 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd 09:37:22 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:52:01 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=952518#p952518 <- yay, me doing arts :p 09:54:09 <planetmaker> not bad :-) 09:54:23 <planetmaker> frosch123: could you fade the upper white bounding boxes a bit into gray? 09:54:29 <planetmaker> there where the text is 09:54:52 <planetmaker> it's otherwise a bit too contrasty background for text 09:56:34 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:58:08 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:58:16 <frosch123> might try later to tweak the layers masks more 09:59:18 *** MrSieb [~01Mr@113.140.37.155] has joined #openttd 09:59:39 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 10:06:25 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 10:12:13 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-236.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 10:18:06 <frosch123> planetmaker: added a white blur 10:20:29 <planetmaker> hm... IMHO that doesn't address the too contrasty background where the text is above the boundboxes 10:20:50 <planetmaker> and the text also looks IMHO nicer w/o white blur 10:21:02 <planetmaker> sorry, just my personal taste :-) 10:21:07 *** JVassie [569e818b@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:21:13 <frosch123> i prefer it with blue :) 10:21:21 <JVassie> huzzah! 10:21:57 <JVassie> hi planetmaker 10:22:23 <planetmaker> hi JVassie 10:22:31 <planetmaker> frosch123: with blue? 10:22:33 <Zuu> frosch123: Nice idea and well carried out! 10:22:40 <JVassie> i added a few more things to the table 10:22:46 <frosch123> s/blue/blur/ 10:25:02 <planetmaker> ah :-) 10:25:11 <planetmaker> JVassie: yes, I saw that, nice :-) 10:26:12 <JVassie> so will we be sticking thoroughly to 1 new loco per each of the 4 classes per 10 years? 10:27:22 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:45 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 10:28:51 <planetmaker> I'd not make it a fixed rule. And I'm not sure about 10 years eing the best guideline 10:29:11 <planetmaker> but as a working guide... feasible :-) 10:29:21 <Alberth> perhaps say something about #available engines instead? 10:29:39 <planetmaker> yes, that's more important 10:30:05 <planetmaker> not more than a dozen concurrent engines ;-) 10:30:22 <JVassie> :p 10:30:25 <planetmaker> rather less 10:30:33 <JVassie> for those who play without persistant engines.. 10:30:41 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 10:30:46 <planetmaker> also for those who do ;-) 10:30:55 <Yexo> that makes no sense 10:31:01 <Yexo> that would limit the set to 12 engines total 10:31:20 <planetmaker> refits? 10:31:28 <JVassie> i play with persistant engines :p 10:31:33 <planetmaker> so do I 10:31:43 <JVassie> brb 10:31:55 <planetmaker> but probably refits are a bad choice there, too 10:31:56 <Yexo> planetmaker: even the default set has more than 12 different engines, not? 10:32:06 <planetmaker> yes 10:32:13 <frosch123> depends on climate 10:32:25 <frosch123> i don't think toyland has 12 10:32:36 <planetmaker> but my feeling is that any nice train set should not provide many more 10:32:52 <planetmaker> or at least have the option to not provide many more 10:33:14 <Yexo> as long as there are not too many concurrently available it doesn't matter imo 10:33:34 <Yexo> limiting the total amount of engines because some players play with persistent engines is not a good idea 10:33:43 <planetmaker> many do 10:33:55 <Yexo> if you play with that one you should expect a large number of engines 10:33:58 * Alberth agrees with frosch123 10:35:03 <planetmaker> I guess you might have a point there 10:35:51 <Alberth> Yexo: I find that a huge disadvantage of many vehicle sets 10:36:13 <Yexo> Alberth: a large number of different engines? 10:36:34 <Alberth> yes, too many not-so-interesting choices 10:36:45 <Yexo> but do you play with persistent engines on or off? 10:36:47 <andythenorth> mostly there's one big winningest engine, and a smaller one 10:36:49 <Alberth> off 10:36:51 <frosch123> Alberth: enable breakdowns 10:36:57 <Alberth> frosch123: I have 10:36:58 <Yexo> Alberth: that's exactly my point 10:36:58 <planetmaker> the problem for me is the way too fast time progression. Thus I'll never enjoy earlier engines, if I don't use persistent engines 10:37:03 <frosch123> ok :) 10:37:04 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I agree 10:37:15 <andythenorth> I want a shorter total game span in years 10:37:18 <andythenorth> but the same play time 10:37:19 <JVassie> is there increased daylength in trunk? 10:37:21 <Yexo> there shouldn't be too many concurrently available engines, the total number of engines doesn't matter as long as they're not all available at the same time 10:37:30 <andythenorth> trying to backdate newgrfs to 1830 or so is tmwftlb 10:37:38 <andythenorth> better start around 1880 10:37:53 <andythenorth> I've played a lot now with sets that start early 10:37:53 <Yexo> JVassie: no 10:37:53 <JVassie> 1881 is our start date currently 10:38:03 <JVassie> a shame 10:38:16 <JVassie> i wrote a timeline guide to the dbsetxl 10:38:19 <Alberth> Yexo: oh, I misread you, I thought you were talking about non-persistent engines, sorry for the confusion 10:38:23 <Yexo> planetmaker: but if fast time progression is the problem, just putting less engines in a newgrf set doesn't solve it in any way 10:38:26 <JVassie> there is just soooo much that happens 10:38:39 <JVassie> its next to impossible without daylength and/or build with pause 10:38:44 <Yexo> as you'll miss out on the early houses too for example 10:38:46 <andythenorth> with sets that start early, the game goes like this: wait about 50 years to make any money with slow engines, then loads of engines appear in 1930 :P 10:38:50 <Yexo> or early industries, in case of sets like firs 10:38:54 <planetmaker> Yexo: it solves in it in so-far as I can then use persistent engines and make my own time progression 10:39:02 <JVassie> indeed 10:39:07 <andythenorth> FIRS early-industry support is poor, and I'm not minded to improve it 10:39:11 <Alberth> JVassie: and you still don't have time to enjoy watching your stuff in action :) 10:39:13 <JVassie> only to a point though planetmaker 10:39:15 <andythenorth> gameplay with early-industry is not fun 10:39:25 <JVassie> Alberth: yup :( 10:39:29 <JVassie> did anyone read the timeline? :p 10:39:53 * planetmaker watches stuff usually a lot. Thus... Progression even slows down the larger my network gets ;-) 10:40:09 <Yexo> planetmaker: I do the same (that is, when I play :P) 10:40:20 <planetmaker> :-D 10:40:24 <Yexo> however the proper fix for that would be to introduce a daylength patch of some sort 10:40:40 <planetmaker> of course :-) 10:40:50 <planetmaker> I won't argue there 10:41:01 <JVassie> whats stopping daylength getting into trunk? 10:41:24 <planetmaker> Well, I guess this set could have a parameter like "Engines: minimal, normal, all" 10:41:34 <JVassie> :p 10:41:36 <frosch123> JVassie: the patches only want to slow down vehicle introduction, but they change everything thus messing everything up 10:41:36 <JVassie> indeed 10:41:48 <JVassie> hmm 10:42:11 <JVassie> well something increasing the number of ticks per game day 10:42:19 <planetmaker> that's the problem 10:42:27 <Yexo> that already messes with industry production for example 10:42:28 <frosch123> i.e. they try to show a single date in the statusbar and still introduce the same engine in 1950 and 1960 10:42:38 <frosch123> but that approach breaks everything 10:42:42 <JVassie> ah 10:42:45 <JVassie> lame 10:42:46 <JVassie> :( 10:42:55 <JVassie> easis 10:42:59 <frosch123> instead there should be an economy-date, and a technology-date 10:43:02 <planetmaker> if it were that simple, it'd be done ;-) 10:43:06 <andythenorth> what happened to 'the daylength patch that might actually work"? 10:43:08 <andythenorth> there was one 10:43:20 <andythenorth> just fake the displayed date :P 10:43:22 <JVassie> easiest solution is to get a couple of mates to play with you, get stuff done 3 times as fast :p 10:43:38 <Yexo> but that means even more time spend looking at the map :) 10:43:47 <JVassie> within 1 company i meant 10:43:51 <andythenorth> 1 current month = 1 week 10:43:53 <planetmaker> :-D @ Yexo 10:44:03 <JVassie> andythenorth: what time scales? 10:44:10 <andythenorth> change some strings from 'production this month' to 'production this week' 10:44:16 <Zuu> Hmm, what about extending the year with more months? 10:44:20 <JVassie> .. 10:44:25 <andythenorth> don't go mental abstracting it all, just enforce one alternative 10:44:27 <JVassie> actual months? 10:44:45 <Zuu> Eg month #13, #14, #15 ... 10:44:51 <andythenorth> players who want to turn up and specify that 1 month should take like, 3 hours 22 seconds on their very specific PC 10:44:55 <andythenorth> are not people I want to spend time with 10:45:11 <Zuu> so each year have more days, rather than slowing down the days. 10:45:13 <JVassie> :p 10:45:20 <JVassie> thats not a bad idea Zuu 10:45:27 <planetmaker> not really 10:45:32 <andythenorth> nearly all the newgrf code I've seen looks at date, not even sure there's much that can get at ticks 10:45:35 <frosch123> Zuu: dates are available as years/month/day, and in days since whenever 10:45:35 <Yexo> Zuu: that still means all yearly statistics are wrong 10:45:35 <planetmaker> just add more months to the year is a solution 10:45:37 <planetmaker> in a way 10:45:42 <planetmaker> but... 10:45:46 <planetmaker> it has issues, too 10:45:49 <JVassie> mmm 10:45:54 <planetmaker> thus every solution so far had issues 10:45:58 <JVassie> :p 10:46:05 <JVassie> another solution 10:46:05 <planetmaker> newgrfs mess up things 10:46:10 <JVassie> rewrite openttd from the ground up.. 10:46:22 <JVassie> but yeah 10:46:22 <andythenorth> what are the issues with my idea? 10:46:27 <JVassie> issues with that too :p 10:46:32 <andythenorth> (which I think was also someone else's idea) 10:46:41 <andythenorth> basically game date progression / 4 10:46:41 <JVassie> andythenorth: so change text of a month to a week? 10:46:52 <andythenorth> and all interfaces to dates 10:46:58 <JVassie> problem is it only give you option of x1 or x1/4 10:47:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: the problem is not the gui 10:47:10 <Yexo> andythenorth: same problems as all other ideas so far 10:47:13 <frosch123> but what date to report to newgrfs where 10:47:48 <frosch123> i.e. vehicle introduction date should be faked, vehicle date for visulisation as well, but vehicle aging not 10:48:03 <JVassie> mmm 10:48:17 <JVassie> what things actually use ticks already? 10:48:29 <frosch123> industry availability and visual appearance should use a technology-date, but industry producton needs to use an ecnomy-date 10:48:41 <Zuu> Hmm, so the ticks need to get slower. Which means vehicles will move longer between each tick => all sorts of funny problems with car follwing, collision detection etc :-) 10:49:04 <andythenorth> why shouldn't vehicle aging be faked? 10:49:13 <planetmaker> as it affects breakdowns 10:49:14 <frosch123> Zuu: don't change the relation between vehicle movement and production 10:49:18 <planetmaker> and depot visits etc 10:49:23 <frosch123> that seems to break most 10:49:55 <JVassie> breakdowns off is the best setting :p 10:49:58 <Zuu> Okay, so simple just slow everything down? 10:50:18 <Zuu> Have eg. 5 GUI-only "ticks" per each game-tick? 10:50:27 <frosch123> JVassie: breakdowns off removes a main criterion for vehicle selection and makes all engines the same 10:50:32 <Zuu> DoCommands get scheduled for next game-tick.. 10:50:53 <JVassie> frosch123: only for those who arent too fussed about aiming for realism 10:51:01 <JVassie> I realise the game is aimed at fun more than realism 10:51:07 <JVassie> but 10:51:10 <planetmaker> Zuu: slowing down movement and animation is not the solution 10:51:27 <planetmaker> slowing vehicles to a crawl would feel very weired like a lag 10:51:27 <JVassie> planetmaker: he didnt mean slowing it down 10:51:30 <JVassie> i dint think 10:51:33 <JVassie> *dont 10:51:44 <JVassie> just allow 5 visual ticks for every game tick 10:52:00 <planetmaker> but vehicle movement is not visuals. 10:52:01 <JVassie> so after 5 visual ticks, the game has an internal tick 10:52:05 <JVassie> ah 10:52:20 <planetmaker> a vehicle moves. may arrrive. load, unload, whatever 10:52:24 <planetmaker> crash 10:52:38 <planetmaker> be sold, be bought,... :-) 10:53:15 <planetmaker> and if vehicles move much more during a year: yearly running costs: what hapens to them? Stay the same? Increase? 10:53:33 <JVassie> hmm 10:53:36 <JVassie> divide by 5 10:54:28 <JVassie> planetmaker: a thought 10:54:39 <JVassie> our 1 vehicle per class every 10 years as a rough guide 10:54:51 <JVassie> doesnt take into account steam/diesel and electric 10:55:15 * andythenorth solves daylength 10:55:19 <andythenorth> do it in newgrf 10:55:54 <JVassie> mmm 10:55:58 <Yexo> planetmaker: running costs are not really yearly, only the display of them is 10:56:02 <JVassie> could do andythenorth 10:56:04 <Yexo> actually they're updated every x ticks 10:56:11 <JVassie> would need a fake date to go with it though 10:56:23 <JVassie> just a visual fake date 10:57:10 <planetmaker> hm, Yexo but the newgrf specifies a runcost base and run cost property. If that's somehow smeared to a (normal) tick and then just kept for daylength - then it autoadjusts 10:57:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=806328#p806328 <-- my first newgrf project :P 10:57:24 <planetmaker> JVassie: IMHO that doesn't matter 10:57:38 <planetmaker> not much ;-) 10:57:40 <andythenorth> could even do daylength parameters in newgrf 10:57:42 <andythenorth> easy 10:57:43 <Yexo> planetmaker: there is also a callback for running costs 10:57:50 <Yexo> not sure how often that is called, but quite often 10:58:00 <Yexo> so that means it must be smeared out already 10:58:06 <JVassie> planetmaker: so a person might have to wait 20 years if they run an electrified network? :p 10:58:33 <Yexo> JVassie: you can run diesel trains on electric track, no problem 10:58:43 <andythenorth> would be better if there was a cb for vehicle introduction dates 10:58:50 <andythenorth> otherwise lots of ugly action 7 10:58:50 <JVassie> but not the other way around Yexo 10:58:51 <andythenorth> or so 10:58:51 <Yexo> as for the other way around: it's only fitting you have to wait longer for new trains if you use obsolete technology 10:58:55 <JVassie> if you dont have wires 10:58:59 <JVassie> :p 10:59:00 <JVassie> hahah 10:59:11 <JVassie> im talking about the early years 10:59:16 <JVassie> 1935 ish to be more specific 10:59:16 <andythenorth> hmm 10:59:23 <andythenorth> it will be a *bit* confusing for players 10:59:36 <andythenorth> there'll be the intro date shown by openttd 10:59:39 <JVassie> we have BR01 in 1926 10:59:41 <andythenorth> and the one actually in use by newgrf 10:59:52 <JVassie> and BR41 in 1936 11:00:23 <JVassie> the E18 would fit nicelyin 1935 IMO :p 11:00:45 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:01:30 <andythenorth> hmm 11:01:36 <andythenorth> every newgrf will need parameters 11:01:41 <andythenorth> - desired start date 11:01:46 <JVassie> :p 11:01:48 <andythenorth> - desired game length (years) 11:01:54 <Yexo> in other words: not going to happen, bad idea 11:01:55 <andythenorth> and then lots of nfo maths 11:02:24 <andythenorth> it's borderline a good idea :P 11:02:26 <planetmaker> JVassie: well... in any case we should not go by a fixed rule but consider everything as guide. 11:02:28 <JVassie> the game might hit a virtual dead end if things like daylength arent 'conquered' :p 11:02:48 <planetmaker> Yes, early e-engines make sense. But should not out-perform the better steam ones 11:03:06 <planetmaker> or something... dunno :-) 11:03:17 <Yexo> planetmaker: but if we introduce early e-engines, we should not use the 10-year guideline for those 11:03:17 <JVassie> :p 11:03:40 <planetmaker> probably not 11:04:08 <andythenorth> hmm 11:04:37 <andythenorth> assume HEQS currently starts in 1900 11:04:48 <andythenorth> if I make the same vehicles available in 1800 11:04:52 <planetmaker> btw... what about 'silent' upgrades: Like early versions of the same model having slightly worse stats than a model bought years later? 11:05:01 <andythenorth> and double the intervals between vehicles....I get a more interesting gameplay 11:05:11 <andythenorth> I just have to ignore date show in game wrt reality 11:05:32 <planetmaker> also double model lifetime then 11:05:35 <Hirundo> planetmaker: That doesn't work with autoreplace, it's quite annoying in e.g. early NARS 11:05:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: good point 11:05:51 <andythenorth> possible 11:06:06 <JVassie> good idea 11:06:12 * andythenorth thinks this might be worth doing 11:06:14 <andythenorth> same for FIRS 11:06:21 <planetmaker> Hirundo: yes, I know... that's why I ask. I'd not make it a 'milestone' difference. But just the normal progression where applicable / desired 11:06:31 <JVassie> andythenorth: parameter ofc 11:06:32 <planetmaker> like P=1390 -> P=1540 kW 11:06:34 <JVassie> *controlled 11:07:15 <andythenorth> FIRS would just need intro dates adjusted for industry 11:07:19 <andythenorth> not hard 11:07:40 <JVassie> mmhmm 11:07:49 <andythenorth> there would need to be a meridian time 11:07:58 <andythenorth> some date where normal date == fake date 11:08:05 <andythenorth> maybe 1930 or 1950? 11:08:21 <JVassie> well 11:08:28 <JVassie> whats the span of your current version? 11:08:30 <JVassie> 1900 to ? 11:09:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: 1950. It's the default start date. 11:09:48 <JVassie> mmm 11:09:48 <planetmaker> But still... I'm not sure this newgrf-parameter-time-strecht is the way to go 11:11:39 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:13:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.180.194] has joined #openttd 11:13:28 <andythenorth> so a vehicle introduced in 2000 against current time base would be introduced in 2050 instead (2:1) 11:13:34 <Terkhen> I finally abandoned it because it was impractical 11:13:48 <JVassie> indeed andythenorth 11:14:09 <Terkhen> if every newgrf needs to agree on the same parameters, it is not something that should be done by newgrfs imo 11:15:50 <Terkhen> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=806329#p806329 <--- this was my table 11:16:18 <planetmaker> [13:15] Terkhen if every newgrf needs to agree on the same parameters, it is not something that should be done by newgrfs imo <-- quite 11:16:19 <Terkhen> I have lost my magical xls file that generated all of the action0, though 11:18:12 <andythenorth> the appeal of my idea is that it's only one 'if' away from succeeding 11:18:19 <Terkhen> what if? 11:18:24 <andythenorth> 'if' all newgrfs implemented same approach 11:18:28 <Terkhen> heh 11:18:30 <andythenorth> there are no technical blockers 11:18:34 <andythenorth> current spec permits it 11:18:38 <andythenorth> and it would solve the problem 11:18:44 <andythenorth> no other solution has been found 11:18:45 <Terkhen> no, they are missing a property 11:19:00 <Terkhen> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3044 11:19:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.166.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:19:31 <Terkhen> otherwise you can only increase vehicle life by a small amount 11:21:03 <andythenorth> hmm 11:21:08 <andythenorth> that's an optimisation :P 11:21:57 <Terkhen> why? 11:23:12 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:23:26 <andythenorth> 254 is enough for most vehicles on a 2:1 ratio 11:23:37 <Terkhen> IMO it is required... otherwise with big "daylenghts" you will need to add additional vehicles to fill the holes 11:24:00 <Terkhen> 2:1 is still too low :P 11:24:07 <JVassie> more vehicles the merrier IMO 11:24:24 <planetmaker> then you should play 2ccTS ;-) 11:25:15 <andythenorth> 2:1 is 'enough' 11:25:15 <JVassie> purno's monstrosity? :p 11:25:18 <JVassie> nahthx 11:25:32 <Ammler> the issue with big sets is rather that it will get harder to make good balancing 11:25:41 <Terkhen> ^ 11:25:44 <andythenorth> balancing is out the window with a big set 11:25:47 <JVassie> some sets are built for realism 11:25:53 <JVassie> wait till you see how amazing the FRSet is ;) 11:25:55 <Ammler> realism sucks 11:26:00 <JVassie> :x 11:26:02 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:26:10 * andythenorth eagerly awaits game balancing outcome of BROS :P 11:26:10 <Terkhen> and if you need to add additional vehicles just to fill holes because of daylenght... forget about balance 11:26:16 <Ammler> well, depends what you mean with realism 11:26:22 <Ammler> good balancing is nice 11:26:29 <Yexo> BROS is doing anything? 11:26:45 <andythenorth> eagerly anticipating a release AFAIK 11:26:50 <andythenorth> apparently it will be done soon 11:26:55 <Terkhen> for the spain set (if I finally get around licensing and stuff) I would like to add a setting that limits the number of trains a bit 11:26:59 <andythenorth> despite no-one appears to be working on it 11:27:01 <Yexo> that's the project that had their own forums and lost it 10 times, right? 11:27:09 <Terkhen> the full set could be used by realistic lovers :P 11:27:21 * andythenorth is extra mean about BROS because it's everything the British (English?) are worst at 11:27:30 <Ammler> Terkhen: wouldn't it be better to add a kind of filter to the buy gui? 11:28:03 <Terkhen> what kind of filter can do "group trains by similarity and display only the most representative"? :P 11:28:25 <Terkhen> a filter to the buy gui would be nice, but it does not solve the "too much trains" issue 11:28:27 <Ammler> Terkhen: same filter as you would use with parameter 11:28:31 <Terkhen> as I still need to know about them 11:28:47 <Ammler> too much trains is only a issue in the buy gui, isn't? 11:29:08 <Terkhen> no, it is an issue because I need to check all of them and decide on which one is the best 11:29:21 <Terkhen> checking 30~ mostly identical trains as in 2cc is a pain 11:30:03 <Ammler> 2cctrainset should maybe group some trains with liveries 11:30:11 <Terkhen> bbl 11:31:20 <planetmaker> Terkhen: well... in a way Ammler is right: if newgrfs had an option to group engines and assign a default engine to the group, the purchase GUI could just show the defaults for the groups - but allow selections of others when the group is somehow opened 11:31:39 <planetmaker> but it'd need both, a new NewGRF property and a GUI addition 11:32:06 <Terkhen> that's liveries IMO 11:32:19 <planetmaker> not really :-) 11:32:39 <Terkhen> the point is: I don't need that many trains, and the people that want that many trains want to be able to find them easily, on a list 11:32:39 <planetmaker> it could be something between that 11:33:30 <planetmaker> the gui could have a button "show all" vs. "show groups". 11:33:32 <Terkhen> if they were grouped and with a default engine for each group, I would never bother with checking the rest 11:33:40 <planetmaker> thus a filter where the groups are newgrf-defined 11:33:47 <planetmaker> yup, that's what you want 11:33:55 <planetmaker> but not the realism-freaks 11:33:56 <Terkhen> in which way is that different from a parameter? 11:34:09 <planetmaker> it's different as in "can be used in the same game" 11:34:29 <planetmaker> and "can be used for a single engine, when needed, but keeps gui clean in normal cases" 11:34:29 <Terkhen> liveries too :P 11:34:40 <planetmaker> yes. But liveries should not be a different vehicle 11:34:53 <planetmaker> I'm talking about grouping vehicleIDs 11:35:06 <planetmaker> about hiding vehicleIDs behing a "group leader vehicle ID" 11:35:18 <planetmaker> but only hiding in the purchase GUI 11:35:37 <Terkhen> that sounds like a lot of work just for avoiding a newgrf parameter 11:35:41 <Ammler> Terkhen: the difference is think MP :-P 11:35:44 <planetmaker> ^ 11:35:55 <planetmaker> it matters for MP servers 11:36:36 <Terkhen> I don't think that changes the issue much 11:36:55 <planetmaker> not? 11:37:22 <planetmaker> of course it will also need the newgrf to define the property... but? 11:37:34 <Terkhen> there are a lot of things chosen by parameter already in a MP game, I don't see why this one is special 11:38:00 <planetmaker> the difference is: that a single player then can make the choice. Not the map creator 11:38:20 <planetmaker> thus moving it from a game setting to a GUI setting 11:38:33 <planetmaker> which it ideally can be 11:38:59 <JVassie> you lot still here? :D 11:39:08 <planetmaker> no, we all left. It's just bots chatting 11:39:16 <Terkhen> sounds like a lot of work just for that :) 11:39:44 <planetmaker> Not sure whether it's lots of work. But possibly. It'll need a new property. And a bit of GUI 11:39:56 <Yexo> <planetmaker> the difference is: that a single player then can make the choice. Not the map creator <_ that's not only an advantage for MP games, but also for scenarios 11:40:10 <planetmaker> indeed 11:40:32 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 11:40:40 <planetmaker> adding the property is easy, I think 11:40:45 <planetmaker> the GUI change is more difficult 11:41:01 <planetmaker> properties rather. One will want it for all 4 vehicles 11:41:14 <JVassie> can someone summarise for me pls? <3 11:41:19 <planetmaker> no 11:41:26 <Terkhen> it's long :P 11:41:26 <planetmaker> :-P 11:41:44 <Terkhen> planetmaker: it should also handle other GUI related stuff 11:41:53 <planetmaker> like? 11:41:56 <Terkhen> for example, if I disable all trains of a given railtype, I don't need it appearing in the rail menu 11:42:32 <planetmaker> I don't understand. That doesn't happen even now, does it? 11:42:53 *** lugo [lugo@89.238.177.145] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:43:06 <JVassie> yeah 11:43:15 <JVassie> it does before vehciles are introduced 11:43:20 <JVassie> not sure if after theyre all gone though 11:43:23 <Terkhen> it appears as disabled 11:43:38 <planetmaker> uhm... it should not show anymore 11:43:42 <JVassie> i never play without persistant engines :p 11:43:50 <planetmaker> a not-present railtype should not be grayed out, but vanish 11:43:59 <JVassie> really? 11:44:04 <planetmaker> I think it's a somewhat recent change, though, Terkhen 11:44:12 <planetmaker> like this year 11:44:13 <Terkhen> my point is: if you are going to allow customizing vehicle selection, the patch would also need to tweak other parts of the GUI 11:44:20 <Terkhen> I don't know, I tested on 1.1.1 11:44:48 <planetmaker> that should have it. But... ok, I still don't understand: what other parts need tweaking than the purchase GUI? Maybe the vehicle overview GUI. Yes 11:44:51 <planetmaker> other things? 11:45:46 <Terkhen> nothing else I think, besides railtypes and maybe road/tram 11:46:21 <planetmaker> railtypes... there are only 16. They don't really need groups 11:46:30 <planetmaker> though it could work there possibly 11:46:59 <planetmaker> road / tram... doesn't make sense to me. 11:47:13 <JVassie> planetmaker but not the realism-freaks <--- OY! :D 11:47:14 <planetmaker> defautl would of course be: if property not set: vehicle is its own group and group leader 11:47:19 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I did not mean groups for railtypes 11:47:29 <Terkhen> what I meant is: if I disable all groups with metro trains, I don't want metro tracks to appear 11:47:46 <JVassie> while were at it on metro tracks 11:48:03 <JVassie> can we make the 3rd rail appear on a specific side dependent on adjacent track? :p 11:48:09 <planetmaker> Terkhen: It's not about disabling the groups. But about collapsing all vehicles in a group to one vehicle. 11:48:20 <JVassie> planetmaker: thats a good idea 11:48:27 <JVassie> as long as the group can be expanded 11:48:35 <Terkhen> oh 11:48:36 <JVassie> just a simple case of the newgrf defining groups 11:48:43 <Terkhen> that's even more complicated regarding the GUI 11:48:46 <JVassie> and assigning vehicles to the groups 11:48:54 <JVassie> and choosing a default, no? 11:48:58 <planetmaker> why? 11:49:31 <planetmaker> Terkhen: what I envision is a simple button like 'show all', 'show only goups' 11:49:42 <Alberth> JVassie: no, imho. A newgrf cannot predict how a user may want to group his vehicles 11:49:45 <andythenorth> groups is akin to station tile classes 11:49:45 <Terkhen> no fancy tree gui? 11:49:48 <andythenorth> but with a different gui 11:49:49 <planetmaker> where 'show only groups' means that the newest vehicle of the group is shown 11:49:58 <JVassie> Alberth: wrong sort of groups 11:50:18 <planetmaker> fancy tree gui... I didn't think that far. But might be nice(r) 11:50:22 <JVassie> as planetmaker make said its like station tile class 11:50:28 <JVassie> not like the current 'engine groups' 11:50:40 <planetmaker> yeah, like station classes in a way 11:50:44 <JVassie> :) 11:50:52 <JVassie> thats a damn good idea tbh 11:50:54 <JVassie> take TRAXX 11:51:00 <JVassie> it could be a 'class' 11:51:04 <JVassie> and within 11:51:09 <JVassie> you have 1445, 146, 246, 185 etc etc 11:51:16 <JVassie> but one of them is the default 11:51:19 <JVassie> *145 11:51:43 <planetmaker> Terkhen: a tree view indeed sounds very scary to implement :-) 11:51:51 <JVassie> is it possible to set the 'default' of each class to either a) the most recently bought, or b) the most often bought? 11:53:22 * andythenorth has another idea 11:53:29 <andythenorth> don't use vehicle sets with too many vehicles :P 11:53:38 <andythenorth> problem solved, no work needed 11:53:45 <JVassie> >.> 11:53:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: please read again the start ;-) 11:54:12 <andythenorth> I did ;) 11:54:30 <planetmaker> so... heqs -> heqs / 10 ? 11:54:43 <JVassie> :D 11:54:53 <andythenorth> what are the groups? 11:55:01 <andythenorth> "big trucks" 11:55:06 <JVassie> well for example in CETS 11:55:07 <planetmaker> what you want 11:55:08 <andythenorth> "trucks that can carry coal" 11:55:12 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:55:16 <andythenorth> "trucks with between 30t and 50t" 11:55:17 <andythenorth> ? 11:55:23 <JVassie> light cargo, heavy cargo, commuter, long-distance 11:55:25 <andythenorth> there's no right answer, nor any reason to choose 11:55:31 <planetmaker> like station classes. Cargo restriction makes no sense, though 11:55:33 <andythenorth> but for a train set you'll get 11:55:35 <planetmaker> as that filter is readily there 11:55:35 <andythenorth> "pacifics" 11:55:40 <andythenorth> "atlantics" 11:55:46 <andythenorth> or "passenger" " freight" 11:55:47 <planetmaker> which makes sense there 11:55:48 <andythenorth> neither is wrong 11:55:57 <JVassie> and its up to the newgrf authors 11:56:05 <JVassie> with BROS it could work well 11:56:05 <andythenorth> "6 axle road switchers" / "4 axle road switchers" 11:56:12 <andythenorth> "GMD" "GE" 11:56:25 <JVassie> Networkers, Sprinters, Turbostars, Electrostars, etc 11:56:37 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 11:56:56 <andythenorth> I have trouble seeing it working well 11:57:12 <andythenorth> especially with two newgrfs supplying say...trains 11:57:26 <andythenorth> newgrf authors need to then agree a common interface, and they won't do that 11:57:32 <planetmaker> so? They both have their own groups 11:57:36 <JVassie> exactly 11:57:38 <planetmaker> groups are per-grf 11:57:42 <JVassie> just like station classes 11:57:49 <andythenorth> sooner just a boolean 11:57:53 <andythenorth> "core" "extended" 11:57:59 <andythenorth> apologies for highlight :P 11:58:07 <andythenorth> newgrf author has to decide 11:58:14 <andythenorth> almost same, without crazy label based system 11:58:35 <JVassie> well 11:58:45 <JVassie> 3 is better in that case 11:58:51 <JVassie> minimal, normal, extended 11:59:00 <andythenorth> that would be sufficient 11:59:17 <JVassie> hmm 11:59:24 <JVassie> planetmaker: you suggested that earlier i think 11:59:28 <JVassie> for something else though 11:59:31 <andythenorth> if he did, he was right :D 11:59:33 <JVassie> was it parameter for CETS? 11:59:39 * andythenorth is being dogmatic :P 11:59:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not about core and extended. That'd not solve it really, if you have a rather rapid evolution of models 11:59:53 <Yexo> <JVassie> just like station classes <- station classes can be shared by newgrfs 12:00:15 <planetmaker> defining a vehicle by class might work just as well... 12:00:43 <JVassie> Yexo, they can? 12:00:55 <Yexo> yep, they just have to use the same label 12:01:04 <JVassie> oh derr 12:01:08 <JVassie> i knew that :D 12:03:10 <andythenorth> so what is the issue then? 12:03:12 <andythenorth> I've misunderstood it 12:03:25 <andythenorth> rapid model evolution is a problem because...? 12:04:14 <JVassie> too many close bunched models of similar stats 12:04:20 <JVassie> for those non-realism-freaks 12:04:20 <JVassie> :D 12:05:28 <andythenorth> and hiding some fails to solve that because? 12:06:08 <JVassie> thats what the classes suggestion is for :p 12:06:33 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:08:17 <andythenorth> hmm 12:08:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: exactly that shall here be the reason for classes: like "show only newest" "show all" vehicles within the single classes 12:08:21 <Alberth> why not an action 14 ? 12:08:28 <andythenorth> I fail to understand correctly 12:08:32 <andythenorth> I shall draw snow instead :D 12:08:37 <andythenorth> in fact, inverse-snow 12:08:40 <andythenorth> to correct a mistake 12:09:02 <Alberth> there is a good bulldozer in the shed that you can use :) 12:10:12 <Alberth> despite that mistake, I really like your snowy tiles, it makes me want to play arctic with snowline at height 1 :) 12:10:54 <andythenorth> he 12:11:00 <andythenorth> I have many more to do ;) 12:11:05 <andythenorth> but they are mostly quite soothing 12:11:17 <andythenorth> it might go a bit faster with advanced sprite layouts 12:11:24 <andythenorth> but that's not available :( 12:23:00 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:29:42 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:29:53 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 12:33:13 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 12:34:06 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:34:26 * andythenorth ponders 12:34:38 <andythenorth> whether to keep doing snow overlay by hacky-but-entirely-valid route 12:34:43 <andythenorth> or wait for nforenum to get fixed 12:34:49 <andythenorth> hacky-but-valid I guess :) 12:35:33 <Yexo> andythenorth: I'm trying to fix nforenum right now 12:35:41 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:788e:23f2:d2b6:174c] has joined #openttd 12:35:44 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:35:47 <andythenorth> it won't do any harm either way 12:35:54 <andythenorth> if it gets fixed soon, I have test cases 12:36:00 <andythenorth> if not...I have more test cases soon :P 12:36:13 <andythenorth> just incurs a tiny bit of sprite duplication in FIRS 12:36:51 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 12:43:17 <alluke> watching trucks carrying containers out from brick works 12:43:42 <Alberth> much more efficient than those pallets :p 12:45:06 <alluke> yeah 12:50:22 <Yexo> andythenorth: do you have a testcase? 12:50:39 <andythenorth> I can create one 12:50:44 <andythenorth> I think I have one commented out maybe 12:50:46 <andythenorth> I'll look 12:51:18 <andythenorth> sheepfarm.pnfo has partial support 12:51:31 <andythenorth> it needs the advanced layout adding in sheepfarm_tiles_layouts.pnfo 12:52:57 <andythenorth> and it will need the snow cutting out of the graphic 12:53:00 <andythenorth> for ground tile 12:53:18 <andythenorth> Yexo: you want I should do it and provide a patch? 12:53:31 <Yexo> if it's not too much work, please :) 12:53:33 <andythenorth> np 12:53:46 * andythenorth has to find docs for tile format though 12:53:53 <Yexo> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout 12:55:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: note that the format changed a lot since your first testcase 12:55:36 <andythenorth> np 12:56:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: advanced action 2 tiles have one less byte? 12:56:42 <andythenorth> after the ID? 12:57:10 <frosch123> hmm? no 12:57:12 <andythenorth> in your example there is a byte missing compared to normal/extended action 2 tile layouts 12:57:16 <frosch123> what makes you think so? 12:57:16 <andythenorth> or I miss-read 12:57:43 <andythenorth> I misread 12:58:06 <andythenorth> sorry 12:58:17 <frosch123> np :) 13:00:11 <andythenorth> Yexo: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1632/advanced_action2_test_sheepfarm.patch 13:01:56 <andythenorth> Yexo: not sure if I got that right, but...let me know if there are problems 13:02:24 <Yexo> it doesn't work, but that can also be because my nforenum fixes are incorrect 13:02:44 <Yexo> ..... or because I ran it with an old nforenum version 13:02:58 <Yexo> no warnings at all 13:03:40 <Yexo> but your action2 is invalid 13:03:54 <Yexo> if you use the advanced format you have to specify flags for every sprite, also all building sprites 13:08:53 <andythenorth> ok 13:14:04 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 13:15:19 <alluke> sucks that ships cant dodge each other 13:15:39 <alluke> i have 3-wide canal but still they go trough each outher 13:19:38 <Ammler> alluke: maybe you can control that with buoys 13:20:12 <alluke> cba putting shitload of buoys 13:20:42 <alluke> looks crap 13:20:57 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 13:21:11 <alluke> docks should also be able to handle one ship at time 13:21:29 <alluke> so you could build gigantic terminals with many docks 13:21:31 <andythenorth> someone was doing multi-stop docks 13:21:51 <alluke> whats that 13:23:24 <alluke> btw 13:23:38 <alluke> how do they empty ships from bulk materials like coal? 13:23:47 <alluke> irl 13:24:06 <andythenorth> cranes, vacuum, excavator 13:24:15 <andythenorth> conveyor 13:24:21 <alluke> k 13:24:36 <alluke> isr has cranes but theyre only available before 1950 :( 13:24:46 <alluke> shame 13:25:58 <andythenorth> alluke: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=bulk+ship+unloader&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1070&bih=668 13:27:22 <alluke> hah 13:27:23 <alluke> cool 13:29:54 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8da5d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:32:04 * andythenorth wonders what a recycling depot should look like 13:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in case you're interested, i have here proposal for a prussian railway set (ca. 1880-1925): www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/schema_pr.txt 13:33:31 <planetmaker> yes, I'm interested. Would you actually mind to somehow put that in that tracking table? 13:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> have a link? 13:33:59 <Yexo> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE 13:34:01 <planetmaker> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=en_US&authkey=CO2PmdYG#gid=0 13:34:16 <planetmaker> I'll happily add you to the people authorized to edit it 13:34:31 <planetmaker> hm.. authkey? 13:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a google account yet 13:35:01 <SpComb> yet? 13:35:05 *** sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 13:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if i want one 13:35:33 <planetmaker> would allow you to edit that :-P 13:35:39 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35:47 <planetmaker> (I have it for not much else either) 13:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "Send all my private data to google" -> accept. 13:42:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 13:43:18 <Ammler> are you sure, you need a google account? 13:43:50 <planetmaker> unless we allow editing for everyone, yes, Am 13:43:55 <planetmaker> Ammler: ^ 13:44:09 <Ammler> ok, thought, there is also something with keys 13:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no mail yet 13:51:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... still no mail yet 13:54:33 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: waiting on a mail to confirm your google account or for access to the spreadsheet? 13:57:57 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 14:00:05 <Ammler> btw. is the newgrf spec really just newgrf, no grf specs there? 14:00:38 <Ammler> (about basesets) 14:02:46 <Yexo> Ammler: action5 is mostly used by basesets 14:02:59 <Yexo> however only in the "extra" grf, which is technically already a "newgrf" 14:03:12 <Yexo> the "grf" format itself doesn't contain any data, just realsprites / recolour sprites 14:04:16 <Ammler> just wondering, because the ttdp wiki didn't call it newgrf, just grf, afaik 14:05:36 *** _goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:12:12 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:13:10 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:50 *** lugo- [lugo@89.238.177.145] has joined #openttd 14:26:12 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8da5d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so, apparently mails from google take half an hour 14:26:45 *** lugo- is now known as lugo 14:27:29 <frosch123> wolfi had to read them first 14:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> rolli wolfi? 14:28:05 <frosch123> yeah 14:28:17 <planetmaker> :-D 14:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> o 14:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> L 14:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> OL 14:29:00 <planetmaker> I mean... we all know we cannot trust you ;-) 14:29:18 <planetmaker> also you are a potential terrorist ;-) 14:29:40 <planetmaker> like all of us actually 14:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> what's with the 99.x engines in the table? we want to include narrow gauge? 14:35:37 <planetmaker> no, not really 14:35:49 <planetmaker> that's indeed a narrow gauge 14:36:14 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: test for presence of a railtype label, resp. add parameters 14:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and "usage" might want to differentiate between "commuter" (short distance, high capacity) and "local" (short distance, low capacity) 14:36:52 <frosch123> some want to play with different railtypes, others fear the hassle of conversions 14:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so what about those edit rights? 14:37:45 <planetmaker> I need your google login 14:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's my e-mail if you have that one 14:38:44 <planetmaker> that'd be it, yes. But I don't know it 14:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure i sent you emails before ;) 14:39:26 <Alberth> so sent another one ;) 14:39:39 <Alberth> *send 14:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also shuffle around the informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause urls to get my email adress ;) 14:40:35 <planetmaker> or you could just tell me now via private msg here ;-) 14:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, that's like saying "i'm the computer" in the turing test :p 14:42:22 * Alberth is convinced pm is a person already 14:44:24 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Houses#Extra_Flags_.2819.29 <--- OpenTTD AIs care about "protected buildings"? 14:44:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: well, I guess we won't get anywhere this way 14:46:22 <frosch123> Terkhen: yes 14:46:25 <Yexo> Terkhen: afaik they're forced to care about that 14:46:33 <Yexo> but I don't think they can actually query that flag 14:46:46 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has joined #openttd 14:46:50 <Terkhen> ok, I was wondering if that description applied to OpenTTD too :) 14:47:39 <planetmaker> news message: "computer AI destroyed the historical parliament building in XXX-town." 14:48:00 <planetmaker> or the Eiffel-tower ;-) 14:48:15 <Terkhen> :P 14:48:18 <planetmaker> hm... what about a monuments add-on houses set? :-) 14:48:39 <Terkhen> players would complain that they can't build specific houses :P 14:49:04 <planetmaker> :-) 14:49:09 <Ammler> the ecs tourists set is already a kind of 14:50:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: so if you care, delete the narrow gauge stuff from it 14:50:09 <Terkhen> yes, maybe special buildings like those make more sense as objects or industries 14:50:16 <planetmaker> I might not have paid close enough attention to the gauge 14:50:37 * planetmaker assigns selection of engines to eddi ;-) 14:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> we can keep narrow gauge stuff and decide whether to include that later 14:51:25 <planetmaker> Terkhen: both is not ideal either: industries interfere with other industry sets. And NewObjects are not automatically built 14:52:01 <planetmaker> also... I'd make them as houses "upon map creation only" and then maybe provide them additonally as NewObjects for the player who cares 14:53:34 <Terkhen> true 14:53:46 <Terkhen> automatically build newobjects? :P 14:57:48 *** George|2 is now known as George 14:58:41 <planetmaker> I'd like that, yes 14:58:52 <planetmaker> but not prior to river creation ;-) 15:00:00 <Terkhen> automatic newobject build would probably be easier :P 15:01:31 <planetmaker> possibly... though it has to make sense, too 15:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure why we need two versions of the E10 which would hardly be graphically differentiable 15:02:12 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:04:51 <fjb> Could be implemented as an upgrade like Pikka does in his plane set with the 747. 15:06:45 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-ffa0c300-106.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> "upgrades" are evil because autoreplace can't handle them 15:07:13 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly needs a grf-spec extension 15:10:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure we don't need both. I added them so that we could see and choose 15:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> your engine list looks fairly random :p 15:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> quick request: need two abbreviations that differenciate DB (west) and DB (unified) 15:12:23 <Yexo> DBW / DBU ? 15:12:26 <Yexo> or was that too simple 15:12:40 <fjb> DB / DBAG 15:12:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: my engine list IS fairly random 15:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: that's good 15:13:26 <Yexo> out of curiosity, what does the AG stand for? 15:13:38 <planetmaker> Aktiengesellschaft 15:13:38 <fjb> Aktiengesellschaft 15:13:51 <planetmaker> i.e. a company with share holders 15:14:25 * fjb misses BR64 15:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> with one shareholder, currently ;) 15:15:15 <planetmaker> fjb: you also want edit rights? 15:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> misses lots of things 15:15:41 <planetmaker> I don't claim to have much knowledge about what should go and what not 15:16:20 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: "express" = "express cargo" ? 15:16:28 <fjb> Hm, don't think I need edit rights yet. 15:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, express passenger 15:16:33 <Yexo> ok 15:16:57 <planetmaker> ah... that's what I'd have called long-distance ;-) 15:17:06 <Yexo> so if express means express passengers, and I assume "local" is "local passengers", what is "passenger"? 15:17:07 * fjb has a book about all engines of the DR. 15:18:16 <planetmaker> fjb: so you could make a good list? :-D 15:18:23 <fjb> Hm, or would I need edit rights? Don'tz know yet. 15:18:38 <fjb> planetmaker: May be I could expand your list a bit. 15:19:04 <planetmaker> fjb: preferrably I leave the list to people who actually know engines. 15:19:13 * planetmaker never was a railway historian 15:19:39 <fjb> There are a lot of pictures in the book. 15:19:44 <planetmaker> I'll happily discuss game balance, but the historic correctness or choice is beyond me 15:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: should probably make a legend ;) 15:20:51 <Yexo> yes please :) 15:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> where can i change "alignment"? 15:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> found it 15:23:12 *** fjb|mobile [~fjb@82.113.99.50] has joined #openttd 15:26:30 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: now better? 15:30:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: could you add the time for the companies? 15:30:56 <planetmaker> it's clear that the Preussische Staatsbahn doesn't operate anymore, but... :-) 15:32:08 <planetmaker> I guess DR = DDR and DRG = pre- WW2? 15:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 15:33:45 <supermop> hey eddi 15:34:11 <supermop> am just catching up on a few months of forum reading, 15:35:42 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 15:35:56 <supermop> you seem to be on to a concern I have had for a while re: max speeds and 2cc set 15:37:51 * fjb|mobile has a book about DRG, not DR. 15:39:10 <planetmaker> fjb|mobile: you should share your knowledge then ;-) 15:39:21 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:23 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 15:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: do the entries in the list need to follow a particular order or are they suppsed to be reordered at will? 15:41:24 <fjb|mobile> planetmaker: I guess I should... 15:41:30 <planetmaker> I've no order yet, Eddi|zuHause 15:41:43 <planetmaker> they should follow a order which make it easy to see which engines we need :-) 15:41:57 <planetmaker> I started with a time line roughly 15:42:01 <planetmaker> but that might not be best 15:42:37 *** _goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:44:20 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's why i ask ;) 15:45:41 <planetmaker> :-) 15:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> we probably need a column deciding "core" and "extended" 15:47:31 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 15:49:11 <planetmaker> yes. eventually at least. I'd only start with core, though 15:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no, i'd make it the other way round, include all engines that sound interesting, and then successively remove them until you get a tidy "core" set 15:51:39 <fjb|mobile> We should have both tables to move vehicles between them. 15:51:42 <Eddi|zuHause> look at my schema above, there are 40 engines on there, a "core" set for that period should probably not exceed 20 15:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> means half of them need to be carefully weighed to be removed 15:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/schema_pr.txt <-- 15:56:27 <planetmaker> [17:52] Eddi|zuHause hm... no, i'd make it the other way round, include all engines that sound interesting, and then successively remove them until you get a tidy "core" set <-- sounds like the way I'd to it, too 15:58:43 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:02:34 *** macee [~macee@2E6B6A37.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 16:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> early electrics have very short lifetime 16:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (might be a disadvantage to balance them against steam) 16:05:50 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-236.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:07:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@80.187.210.47] has joined #openttd 16:07:12 <fjb|mobile> They should have lower running costs. 16:20:26 *** macee [~macee@2E6B6A37.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has left #openttd [] 16:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.micro-metakit.com/wbc.php?tpl=produktlistearchiv.html&rid=271 <-- i can't find stats (power, etc.) for this engine 16:28:23 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-184.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 16:31:24 *** ar3k [~ident@ebv28.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 16:33:45 <fjb|mobile> I should have the stats. 16:35:34 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest5108 16:35:34 *** Guest5108 [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:37:57 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecp147.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which source said that the P8 was built until 1938? 16:42:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the "Lexikon der Lokomotiven", by Klaus Eckert and Torsten Berndt, published by Komet Verlag 16:42:53 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:27 <planetmaker> it also mentioned that the engine was also built in Poland and Romania, but without giving the years there 16:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, maybe they included some sub-series that i did not include when making my list 16:51:36 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: wikipedia says until 1923, but also mentions production in romania without giving a year 16:54:49 <planetmaker> well... I've no means to judge the goodness of their investigation nor do I know their data basis 17:00:55 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:01:07 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:16 *** fjb|mobile [~fjb@82.113.99.50] has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:10:06 *** doug713705 [~doug@gam93-1-87-88-121-214.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #openttd 17:10:35 <doug713705> Hello people. 17:10:43 <Alberth> hi 17:10:54 <planetmaker> salut 17:12:27 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 17:13:43 <doug713705> I have setted up a server which is started with the -g parameter to load a scenario file. But when the game is over, the server restart with a random map and that is not what i'd like. How to tell openttd to reload the same scenario file at restart ? I found no parameter in the config file. 17:14:02 <doug713705> this server is running the latest satble version 17:14:09 <doug713705> stable* 17:14:12 <Yexo> as far as I know that's not possible 17:14:45 <doug713705> that's an answer ! Not the one i'd like to hear, but that is one answer :-D 17:14:50 <planetmaker> yup, afaik not 17:15:39 <planetmaker> you could script it though to load the scenario again. But that needs some external tools like ap+ 17:16:10 <planetmaker> or you need to write something to connect to the admin port and give the command via those means 17:16:29 <doug713705> I can manage this with a cronjob or something but I was looking for a native solution. 17:16:48 <planetmaker> yeah, sorry, that doesn't work :-) 17:16:52 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-205-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:18:04 <doug713705> No problem with that, at least I can stop looking for something that is not possible :-) 17:18:41 <doug713705> Thanks for you answers guys. 17:21:36 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-208-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:24:01 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 17:25:32 *** doug713705 [~doug@gam93-1-87-88-121-214.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has left #openttd [] 17:28:57 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> http://dampflok-bilder-elektroloks.chapso.de/auswahl-s198686.html <- that might be a fairly comprehensive list for stats 17:35:44 <andythenorth> @seen DanMacK 17:35:44 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 51 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: * DanMacK waves 17:35:57 * andythenorth is worried that DanMacK is bored of sprites :o 17:36:01 <andythenorth> this would be sad 17:36:54 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22596 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt portuguese.txt): 17:44:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:44:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 21 changes by Christopher 17:44:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity 17:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what to do if i don't have TE, only the "Reibungslast"? 17:49:43 <Terkhen> it is possible to have houses producing cargos different than passengers and mail? 17:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: same as industries, i presume 17:50:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: good question :-). Note down that? 17:51:30 <Terkhen> hmm... it is possible, but it needs a callback 17:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "in theory" it would simply be µ*m*g 17:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what's µ typically? 0.035? 17:52:34 <planetmaker> something of that order 17:53:11 <planetmaker> just use the value with that approximation, I think 17:53:24 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:33 <planetmaker> and maybe add a footnote that it was obtained by these means 17:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... my table says steel on steel (dry): 0.15 17:53:40 <Terkhen> are you doing a csv -> code conversion? 17:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and 0.002 for rolling resistance 17:54:04 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 17:54:28 <planetmaker> Terkhen: currently we only have a google docs version 17:54:41 <Terkhen> s/doing/planning/ 17:54:49 <planetmaker> For the actual rolling stock we might consider such thing indeed 17:54:59 <Yexo> Terkhen: there are no plans for that, but if that saves work it's quite likely 17:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 34700*0.15*9.81 17:55:01 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 51061.05 17:55:21 <Terkhen> ok :) 17:55:22 <planetmaker> it might make some balancing easier. But... yes :-) 17:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> 51kN? is that low for a steam engine? 17:55:58 <frosch123> compared to the other engines, it is pretty low 17:56:56 <JVassie> hi guys 17:57:28 <JVassie> good work on the spreadsheet someone 17:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 60000*0.15*9.81 17:57:39 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 88290 17:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there must be something wrong with my physics 17:58:11 <frosch123> what is the total weight of the engine? 17:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> around 60t total, around 34t "active" 17:59:58 <JVassie> planetmaker: shouldnt the short names be like BR150 rather than just 150? 18:00:24 <planetmaker> ask Eddi|zuHause , he's the professional ;-) 18:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: since all engines would have "BR", there's no sense in repeating it. makes it shorter. 18:01:18 <frosch123> @calc 157/84000/9.81 18:01:18 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.000190524731809 18:01:26 <JVassie> what are we going to use as a display name then Eddi|zuHause? 18:01:38 <frosch123> @calc 157000/84000/9.81 18:01:38 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.190524731809 18:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: some variant of the long name 18:01:54 <JVassie> ill add a column xD 18:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: no 18:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fine like it is 18:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there already is another hidden column, should we indeed need one ;) 18:02:33 <JVassie> well thats for variant name 18:02:38 <JVassie> so take the E10 18:02:42 <JVassie> there would be E10.0 18:02:46 <JVassie> E10.1 18:02:47 <JVassie> etc 18:02:50 <JVassie> as the variant names 18:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i don't think we'll need those 18:03:30 <JVassie> I presume we decided on a minimal/normal/extended? 18:03:44 <JVassie> or just core / extended? 18:03:54 <frosch123> @calc 157000/51000/9.81 18:03:54 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.313805440627 18:04:35 <JVassie> I like the new 'useage's too 18:04:41 <JVassie> better to split pax into 4 18:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the need for "minimal" 18:05:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the e01 seems to have double µ than normal 18:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but could easily add that later 18:05:30 <JVassie> mmm true 18:05:44 <JVassie> if were going to have an extended option, may as well make use of it :D 18:06:06 <JVassie> that way we can cater for both realists and 'funists' 18:06:13 <JVassie> which is a good thing IMO 18:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: took the value from here: http://dampflok-bilder-elektroloks.chapso.de/e01-s199278.html 18:07:37 <frosch123> i did as well 18:08:16 <frosch123> that page lists both starting-TE, total weight and useful weight 18:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and starting-TE is missing from the steam engines 18:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they calculated with sand? 18:10:25 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: E06: 110km/h, 2780kW, 111,6t 18:10:59 <fjb> Build 1923/24 18:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i entered 2330kW here 18:11:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anfahrzugkraft <- last sentence on that page 18:11:55 <fjb> Leistungskennziffer (whatever that is) 25kW/t 18:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i took the "dauerleistung" rather than the "stundenleistung" 18:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should decide on one or the other beforehand 18:13:46 <fjb> I also have "Geschwindigkeit bei St.lstg." 67km/h 18:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i found this page after i asked: http://dampflok-bilder-elektroloks.chapso.de/e06-s199282.html 18:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 34700*0.35*9.81 18:14:41 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 119142.45 18:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so... 119kN, better value for a steam engine? 18:15:15 <frosch123> yes, but 0.35 is quite maximum µ 18:15:36 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@80.187.210.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 31.9*0.35*9.81 18:17:21 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 109.52865 18:17:24 <JVassie> that legend is quite bulky :x 18:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: if you know a trick to hide it in something like a dropdown? 18:18:13 <JVassie> would be easier to put at bottom of sheet IMO 18:18:36 <JVassie> im on a laptop atm 18:18:45 <JVassie> and can only see 7 rows of actual table at a time :p 18:19:59 * planetmaker doesn't see more rows either for the same reason 18:20:07 <JVassie> how about 18:20:10 <JVassie> we put it in rows 2 18:20:13 <JVassie> and unfreeze it 18:20:20 <JVassie> then it can be shown/hidden when needed? 18:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i put it to bottom now 18:20:45 <JVassie> lovely thanks 18:21:16 <JVassie> row 21? 18:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but that may be of trouble later when one wants to sort columns 18:21:18 <JVassie> brb 18:21:23 <JVassie> hmm 18:21:25 <JVassie> we'll see 18:21:25 <JVassie> :X 18:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: unfinished 18:29:03 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 18:32:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22597 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 3 dirs): 18:32:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: 18:32:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Callback result for airport layout name was incorrectly used (r22496) 18:32:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Airport preview sprite can depend on the layout, so update the cached SpriteID when the layout changes (r22494) 18:32:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Engine IDs for coal and mail wagons were swapped in the TTO savegame conversion [FS#4622] (r22487) 18:32:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: The caption of centered windows could be moved out of the main window and thus become inaccessible when resizing the main window (r22485, r22484) 18:33:58 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 18:36:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22598 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 6 dirs): 18:36:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: 18:36:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Doing rescan_ai in a game with running AIs caused a crash [FS#4631] (r22534) 18:36:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not create an implicit order if the current order is the first order in the order list and we visit the station of the last entry of the order list (r22532) 18:36:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: MinGW 64 related compilation issues [FS#4623] (r22522, r22491, r22490, r22489) 18:36:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: The layout selectors of the airport build GUI did not latch properly (r22497, r22495) 18:39:38 *** juh [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 18:39:48 <frosch123> the narrow gauge engines in that table are listed 10x longer than they are 18:40:42 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:41:03 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:41:19 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 18:44:06 *** juh [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 18:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker was responsible for those... 18:47:55 * planetmaker pleads guilty 18:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the engines with low number, like T2 are no real homogenous series 18:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> more like "we put all older engines with low power in there" 18:57:54 <Yexo> there are only 0x80 IDs available for actionF, and afaik they can't be reused. Each actionF can contain 255 parts 18:58:11 <Yexo> does this mean the total number of townnames per newgrf is limited to 0x80*255? 18:58:16 <Yexo> @calc 128*255 18:58:16 <DorpsGek> Yexo: 32640 18:58:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: auto-fencing FTW ;) 18:58:47 <planetmaker> yep :-) 18:58:55 <planetmaker> OpenTTD > r22518 required though ;-) 18:59:36 *** m [~m@ppp-93-104-30-141.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #openttd 19:00:14 <frosch123> Yexo: if you do not combine parts, then yes 19:00:24 <Yexo> frosch123: combine parts? 19:01:03 <frosch123> only names of a single part, no concatenations 19:01:10 <Yexo> ah, ok 19:03:31 <Yexo> thanks 19:19:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22599 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 6 dirs): 19:19:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: 19:19:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Clear airport persistent storage on construction/removal of airports (r22552) 19:19:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Possible crash when opening the airport build window for the first time [FS#4619] (r22538) 19:19:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Replace the half small airport structure on the intercontinental airport with some grass [FS#3494] (r22537) 19:19:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Documentation omission regarding admin protocol [FS#4632] (r22536) 19:19:33 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:37 *** stenli [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:27:29 *** stenli [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 19:39:35 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 19:39:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22600 /branches/1.1/ (9 files in 3 dirs): 19:39:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: 19:39:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: PBS order forecasting modified the current order index in case of a goto-nearest-depot order and no depot could be found [FS#4641] (r22589) 19:39:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove BaseStorageArrays from _changed_storage_arrays on destruction (r22583, r22551) 19:39:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not increment STL iterators after they've been invalidated (r22582) 19:39:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not lower the arrow buttons in the NewGRF/AI parameter windows if they are clicked when disabled (r22553, r22499) 19:42:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22601 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 3 dirs): 19:42:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: 19:42:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Add: Makefile support for bundling pdb and running regressions with the MSVC makefile (r22581, r22580, r22576) 19:42:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not show cargo accepted/produced in the new station window when no tiles are selected (mouse hovering a window or toolbar) [FS#4647] (r22595, r22593) 19:42:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Add active NewGRFs to the list of available ones when selecting the empty preset [FS#4644] (r22594) 19:42:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Reading of heightmaps with uncommon BMP formats failed due to uninitialised variables [FS#4645] (r22592) 19:56:52 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 20:04:13 <m> hey all 20:04:22 <Yexo> hello m 20:04:44 <m> someone here who knows how to reverse-engineer with IDA Pro? I'm trying to decompile Earth Siege 2 and have some questions with Borland C++ vtables 20:05:27 <Yexo> I've used it before, but not so much that I can answer any questions about it 20:05:31 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:43 <m> kk^^ 20:15:25 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd 20:21:32 <Yexo> one k too little :p 20:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that was quite a coincidence :p 20:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (if you believe in such things) 20:22:49 <Terkhen> :D 20:27:20 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you believe in the coincidence that the index of the newtrains-switch (0x37) incremented by the id of the action4-original-strings-feature (0x48) results in 0x7f, which turns out to be the a patch switch, which is always set? 20:31:33 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:37 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.180.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:58 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:01:11 *** sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:02:48 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-ffa0c300-106.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:03:41 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-96-126.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:07:04 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-184.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:14:00 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:24:20 <JVassie> hi guys 21:27:10 <supermop> hi 21:31:17 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C2F3.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:51 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-73-105.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:49:38 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:49:52 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-33-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 21:50:01 <Terkhen> good night 21:50:20 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:50:36 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-96-126.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:50 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 21:56:04 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-100-246.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:56:30 *** JVassie [569e818b@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:59:06 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-73-105.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:06:31 *** jewoodall [~4cbc671b@webuser.thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd 22:06:54 <jewoodall> Hi folks! Can I ask about something I'm running into? 22:08:19 <jewoodall> Wow. Okay. Should have read the topic. I have a mine and forest, with a train station inbetween. I send a train with 1 ore and one wood car into the station, and NOTHING gets loaded onto my train. 22:09:35 <Yexo> are you using any newgrfs? 22:10:07 <jewoodall> Did the default Windows download last night. 22:10:16 <Yexo> which version is that? 22:10:17 <jewoodall> Showing OpenTTD 1.1.1 22:10:20 <Yexo> ok 22:10:37 <Yexo> if you click the mine, you'll see which cargos in can produce 22:10:41 <jewoodall> No customs, all defaults accepted. I just switched to using only one car, that being the wood car. 22:10:56 <jewoodall> 88 tons iron ore. 28% transported. 22:11:20 <Yexo> do you realize that a forest doesn't accept iron ore? you need to transport iron ore to a steel mill 22:11:24 <jewoodall> Forest reads 168 tonnes wood, 26% transported. 22:11:54 <jewoodall> Oh, yeah, I was being literal. In the east, I have a station. That station is smack between a forest and a mine. 22:12:10 <Yexo> wood from the forest needs to be transported to a paper mill or sawmill, depending on the climate 22:12:21 <jewoodall> In the southwest, I have another station. It is located close to a sawmill and a steel mill. 22:12:50 <jewoodall> SW station says accepts "Passenger, Wood, Iron Ore". Waiting: Nothing. 22:13:00 <Yexo> if you open the train details, how much cargo is already in the train? 22:13:20 <jewoodall> East Station says Waiting 305 wood and 304 ore. 22:13:27 <Yexo> train details can be found by clicking on the train, than the lowest button at the right 22:13:32 <jewoodall> Empty. 22:13:41 <Yexo> what are the orders for your train? 22:13:51 <jewoodall> I've watched, and it never seems to load either cargo. 22:14:22 <jewoodall> full load far end) 22:14:34 <jewoodall> Ooops. Typo. 1: Danington Mines, Full Load. 22:15:14 <Yexo> hmm, seems all fine 22:15:16 <jewoodall> Second line: Go to Brundinghead Woods, [far end] 22:15:19 <Yexo> can you upload your savegame somewhere? 22:16:25 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:17:45 <jewoodall> Okay, sent that. Thanks for the help. 22:18:07 <jewoodall> Now I'm going to try sending a single ore car, just for kicks. It wouldn't load my wood car. 22:18:40 <Yexo> jewoodall: you're missing a single piece of track hidden behind the steel mill 22:18:47 <jewoodall> Wow I'm dumb. 22:18:48 <jewoodall> THANKS! 22:18:52 <Yexo> press x to toggle transparency 22:18:57 <Yexo> or ctrl+x to open the menu for that 22:19:12 <jewoodall> Heh. 184 pounds to fix. 22:19:20 <Yexo> after that it seems to work fine 22:19:21 <jewoodall> My guy probably lost ,000 waiting for that. 22:20:06 <jewoodall> Okay. Fixed. LOL. 22:20:12 <Yexo> if you want to make more money, build longer routes 22:20:17 <Yexo> your routes are all very short 22:20:28 *** core [5169d783@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:20:48 <Yexo> brundinghead forest to weningville sawmill would be a nice length for example 22:22:05 <Yexo> setting train 1 to full load at the first station will also double the profitability of that train 22:23:32 <jewoodall> Done. Looks like train 1 is actually the bulk of my company's profit. 22:24:01 <jewoodall> I had some dumb problems in my previous games, probably solvable by means of the transparency trick you showed me. 22:24:09 <jewoodall> This was the reason for all my short runs. 22:24:59 <jewoodall> I was also amusing myself seeing if you could make "Municipal Mass Transit" into a viable business model. Frankly, I'm making it work better than most real-life cities, but it's still a waste of capital and managerial effort. 22:27:20 <Yexo> it's possible, but only profitable with bigger cities 22:27:33 <Yexo> and unmanageable even then 22:28:05 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:30:30 <jewoodall> I tried running freight trucking lines. Profitable like mad, but still barely manageable. I'm noticing that my train 2 is not getting adequate Wood to transport. Is it possible for a forest to disappear, as in real life? 22:31:32 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc4f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:23 <Yexo> yes, industries can close 22:32:40 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:44 <Yexo> see http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics for how industry production works 22:32:50 <Yexo> and also distribution of cargo to stations 22:33:07 <Yexo> you'll see that it depends on station rating, which is influenced big time by always having a vehicle loading at the station 22:33:24 <Yexo> which means that for optimal production you need more than 1 vehicle per line 22:37:35 <jewoodall> Thank you. I'm trying to determine if multiple vehicles per line means more than one track. I know with Railroad Tycoon I was able to use signaling to do that, as long as there was a double section somewhere. 22:37:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.180.194] has joined #openttd 22:38:36 <jewoodall> I want to stop bothering you though and read the manual. It's not like I'm paying for a tutor. 22:38:55 <Yexo> http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Tracks there you go 22:39:39 <Yexo> and that is a very good mentality. If you do read the manual you're always welcome to ask any questions the manual didn't answer or you didn't found 22:39:56 <Yexo> for now you'll have to get answers from someone else though, I'm going to sleep 22:39:58 <Yexo> good night 22:40:49 <jewoodall> Night Yexo, night all! 22:40:54 *** jewoodall [~4cbc671b@webuser.thegrebs.com] has quit [Quit: TheGrebs.com CGI:IRC] 22:42:10 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:50:27 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.68] has joined #openttd 22:51:34 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 22:53:17 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-52-53.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 22:54:34 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.67.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:56:06 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 23:05:09 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 23:05:40 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:08:03 <m> any option available which scales the control buttons? 23:08:15 <m> they're damn small on a 17'' 1920x1080 screen 23:09:03 <Ammler> m: there is biggui newgrf 23:09:18 <Yexo> you can try http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50095 23:10:09 <m> perfect, thanks! 23:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> best combined with increasing font size in openttd.cfg 23:11:37 <m> and can I activate tool-tips? 23:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> in advanced settings: either hovering x seconds or right click 23:14:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BD6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:52 <m> thx 23:19:39 <Wolf01> 'night 23:19:40 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:20:30 <planetmaker> hm... maybe we should introduce a new action14 label: STAT. And such NewGRF could be offered in a separate NewGRF GUI for static NewGRFs 23:20:33 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:25:46 <Ammler> planetmaker: openttd should be able to detect static capable without action14 23:26:03 <Ammler> I guess, it does already 23:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, only a button "make static", which throws an error if it's not possible 23:27:07 <Ammler> it should also make a newgrf "editable", if it is loaded on MP but static 23:29:02 <Yexo> <Ammler> it should also make a newgrf "editable", if it is loaded on MP but static <- that is not feasible 23:29:30 <Yexo> since "editing" grfs (I assume you mean adding/removing static grfs or modifying their parameters) means all grfs have to be reloaded 23:29:33 <Ammler> I fear so, because the data is in the save, right? 23:29:36 <Yexo> which is something we avoid at all cost in MP 23:29:56 <Yexo> if you want to edit them exit MP, edit static grfs, enter same game 23:30:10 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: for the same reason you can't make a grf static during a game 23:30:14 <Ammler> Yexo: that is something else 23:30:23 <Yexo> and before a game is started we don't know if a grf can be made static 23:30:26 <Ammler> I meant more that you could e.g. disable a static grf 23:30:29 <Yexo> as that depends also on all non-static grfs 23:30:32 <planetmaker> well... having such flag would make it easier to detect instead of testing each grf for static-ness 23:30:38 <Yexo> Ammler: that is exactly the same 23:30:54 <Ammler> Yexo: a static grf, which is loaded on MP 23:30:58 <Yexo> planetmaker: you can't test a grf for staticness without having a list of grfs that will be active 23:31:01 <Ammler> on the server 23:31:09 <Yexo> Ammler: a server has no static grfs 23:31:11 <planetmaker> Yexo: but a14 is read before 23:31:15 <Yexo> that would be rather pointless 23:31:23 <planetmaker> that's why I suggest(ed) the a14 additon 23:31:27 <planetmaker> +i 23:31:30 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, but you can't take the value from a14 as authority, jsut as hint 23:31:30 <Ammler> Yexo: you can load every static grf as normal grf 23:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what yexo means is a grf cannot be made static if another grf references it 23:31:37 <Yexo> planetmaker: I'm not saying that's a bad suggestion 23:31:47 <Yexo> Ammler: if you do it's no longer a static grf 23:31:52 <planetmaker> Yexo: yes, I know that authors can mess up. 23:31:56 <Ammler> that's the point 23:32:01 <Yexo> a static grf is only static as long as it's statically loaded, ie not by the server 23:32:06 <planetmaker> But it could give a list of newgrfs which one could filter for 23:32:08 <Yexo> nothing is going to change that 23:32:16 <Yexo> planetmaker: <Yexo> planetmaker: I'm not saying that's a bad suggestion 23:32:19 <Yexo> in fact I rather like it 23:32:22 <Ammler> yep, sadly :-) 23:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you can make a counter-grf 23:33:03 <planetmaker> I'm not trying to contradict you, Yexo :-) 23:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that reverses the effect of certain known static-able grfs 23:33:21 <planetmaker> I mainly wonder how a 'bigGUI' could be provided 23:33:39 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: impossible, static grfs are always loaded after the normal grfs 23:33:45 <planetmaker> And actually everything would be solved, if both, a) fonts are GUI-configurable and static GUI-grfs. 23:34:02 <Ammler> planetmaker: they don't need action14 to be so 23:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i understand it like Ammler wants to disable a grf that is loaded on the server, that has only static-like effects 23:34:27 <Yexo> Ammler: but that would make it easier for the user to filter which grfs might be safe for static use 23:34:39 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: that will never be supported 23:34:57 <planetmaker> doesn't make sense either, I think 23:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, hence my suggestion 23:35:02 <Ammler> Yexo: yes, but openttd could "flag" the grfs on loading 23:35:13 <Ammler> so you can be sure, it is really static 23:35:17 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: ah, a local static grf that reverses the effects 23:35:29 <planetmaker> Ammler: not really. Another grf could depend on it 23:35:30 <Yexo> Ammler: as I said before, that's impossible 23:35:41 <Ammler> Yexo: openttd does that already 23:35:50 <Ammler> just add all newgrfs to static 23:35:53 <Yexo> you can't know whether a grf is safe for loading as static grf before you have a list of active newgrfs 23:35:59 <Ammler> then all non-static will automatically be dropped 23:36:01 <Yexo> Ammler: no, it flags certain grfs as "unsafe" for static 23:36:09 <Yexo> that is something else than flagging the rest as "safe for static" 23:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the main problem is there is no GUI for making a grf static 23:36:31 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i intended to solve 23:36:36 <planetmaker> *sigh* yes, exactly, Eddi|zuHause 23:36:52 <planetmaker> you're working on it? 23:36:59 <Ammler> well, at least it worked that way back '.5/0.6 as I we made grfpack static list 23:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no 23:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm never working on GUI :p 23:37:13 <planetmaker> :-) 23:37:18 <planetmaker> [01:37] Eddi|zuHause that's what i intended to solve 23:37:30 <planetmaker> sounds like, though ;-) 23:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: with my suggestion of a button 23:37:49 <planetmaker> where should that be? 23:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> in the newgrf gui 23:38:40 <planetmaker> I wonder whether static NewGRF should be configurable from e.g. the options menu 23:38:43 <Ammler> Yexo: what is the difference of "1. all grfs are static, 2. drop the unsafe" and "scan for static grfs"? 23:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe next to the "add" button 23:39:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what I can envision there as an easy change is a mode switch static vs. standard 23:39:38 <Yexo> Ammler: "scan for static grfs" implies that you can be sure whether a grf is safe to be loaded as static. The first approach means you start with all grfs and drop the known unsafe ones, resulting in a list with grfs which _might_ be safe for static 23:39:42 <planetmaker> thus that two independent list of grfs are handled 23:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i disagree, a preliminary check for static-ability need not be exact 23:40:21 <planetmaker> Yexo: 'scan for static' implies to actually read each grf entirely, right? 23:40:27 <Ammler> Yexo: how can action14 make that better? 23:40:29 <planetmaker> something which is not done by default 23:40:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's why I suggested the a14 property 23:40:52 <Ammler> how should a author better know, which grf is safe, which not 23:40:53 <Yexo> Ammler: by having non-static grfs that might not be automatically detected as unsafe mark themself as unsafe 23:41:00 <planetmaker> it need not be exact. But should be a pretty good hint 23:41:45 <Yexo> let's drop this discussions, the important part is the gui 23:42:02 <Yexo> I think we more or less agree on the rest, apart from maybe some semantics 23:42:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: problem of an a14 entry is that grf authors will misunderstand what it does, and set it in wrong cases 23:42:19 <planetmaker> possibly 23:42:27 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: action14 is only hints anyway, it can never be used as final grf info 23:42:56 <Yexo> hmm, or maybe it can 23:43:06 <Ammler> you do already e.g. with version 23:43:06 <planetmaker> thus "as a default filter" so that I don't have to browse through 400 static unsafe newgrfs 23:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, but the info gets worthless then, might as well not have it at all 23:43:37 <Yexo> planetmaker: question is how large that list is after removing all grfs with action3 / etc. 23:43:41 <Yexo> which are known to be unsafe 23:44:04 <planetmaker> is that known upon normal scan? 23:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but an a14 entry also does not help with older grfs 23:44:31 <planetmaker> I'm not sure I want to extend the grf scan even more... 23:44:34 <Ammler> planetmaker: add all newgrfs to static then start openttd 23:44:43 <planetmaker> lol 23:45:01 <Ammler> it does automatically drop the unstatic 23:45:37 <Ammler> that is how I made the static list for the grfpack until we dropped static support 23:47:33 <Ammler> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF_Table_5 23:48:56 <planetmaker> hm 23:50:05 <Ammler> the grfpack has scripts to make a list for cfg :-) 23:50:14 <Ammler> (with bananas grfs) 23:51:51 <Yexo> Ammler: if A.grf checks whether B.grf is active, than B.grf is static-unsafe if A.grf is loaded non-static 23:52:04 <Yexo> if A.grf is loaded static or not at all then B.grf can still be static-safe 23:52:30 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:53:04 <planetmaker> newgrf.cpp:5420 23:53:07 <Ammler> good example is dutch catenary and canadian statins 23:53:56 <Ammler> but I thought, frosch fixed that 23:54:13 <Yexo> planetmaker: that code is only reached during actual processing of the grfs, not during the pre-scan stage 23:54:23 <Yexo> Ammler: that's impossible to fix 23:54:32 <Yexo> unless you want to break the existing spec and create a new one 23:54:34 <planetmaker> yes, I'm searching that still 23:54:45 <Ammler> Yexo: well, disabling the grf 23:54:51 <Yexo> see around liens 7962 23:55:05 <Ammler> but not sure anymore, very long ago 23:55:28 <Yexo> anyway, now it's really time to sleep 23:55:31 <Yexo> good night all 23:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> afair the fix was to disable dutch catenary instead of canadian stations 23:56:09 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, the static grf 23:56:26 <Ammler> iirc 23:58:50 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: or do you mean, the grf author fixed it? 23:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no