Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:21 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:37:48 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 00:49:56 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 02:20:14 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:22:33 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-142-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:27:00 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-221-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:42:26 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e1b4:3d58:6a77:ff91] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:27:17 *** RandomGuest555 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 04:29:04 <RandomGuest555> yo... 04:34:18 *** RandomGuest555 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:52:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7479C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:43 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75D5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:01:38 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:08:44 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 05:25:11 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:41 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:04 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 05:49:18 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 06:06:25 *** Zmapper [~Zmapper@c-98-245-169-134.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 06:06:38 <Zmapper> Hello. 06:11:26 <Zmapper> Can I just install openttd on a server? 06:11:32 <Zmapper> So I can host a game that way? 06:16:46 <LordAro> yes 06:17:32 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e01bb41.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:17:36 <LordAro> (generally) 06:21:09 <Zmapper> Should I use fillezilla? 06:21:17 <Zmapper> file-zila* 06:22:32 <LordAro> no idea :) i suspect that's not how to install things on a server though 06:25:02 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:32:47 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 06:36:31 <planetmaker> moin 06:37:38 <V453000> elo pm 06:42:17 <Zmapper> hello planetmaker. 06:45:07 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:44 <LordAro> hi pm 07:06:26 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-027-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:14:59 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D679.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:15:24 <planetmaker> wow many people awake already :-) How're things? 07:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm going to have to do real work today... 07:17:12 <planetmaker> :-) 07:25:33 <V453000> im awake since 6:20 when some idiots called me that they have some package to deliver to me ... they arrived just now 07:25:35 <V453000> happy times 07:27:10 <planetmaker> woot the idots call at 6:20h to *announce* that they're probably delivering shit? 07:27:39 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 07:27:39 <planetmaker> that's more than plain rude 07:28:18 <V453000> yes 07:28:26 <V453000> wonderful 07:30:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I added some of the files generated by generate.py to the clean target 07:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: imho you can just delete all *.gnml files 07:32:12 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:33:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's what I do ;-) 07:33:26 <planetmaker> rm src/*.gnml src/*/*.gnml 07:35:16 <Terkhen> good morning 07:35:26 <planetmaker> hi Terkhen 07:37:51 *** Zmapper [~Zmapper@c-98-245-169-134.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 07:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "find src -print0 -iname '*.gnml' | xargs -0 rm" or so 07:44:57 <planetmaker> I should use find more ;-) 07:45:00 <planetmaker> find src -iname '*.gnml' -delete will do 07:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, probably 07:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> gtg 08:00:16 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 08:13:25 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:13:28 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:15:14 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:16:41 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 08:18:41 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958334#p958334 <-- Alberth: get the scenario he posted. Save the newgrf config. And use that newgrf config to create a new scenario. 08:18:56 <planetmaker> For me I wasn't able to get oil refineries in that case either 08:19:27 <planetmaker> mind: the issue does NOT appear when you create a new _game_ 08:19:46 <planetmaker> thus I personally conclude that it's an issue within ECS' industry availability code 08:20:48 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958250#p958250 <-- I tried to describe it here ;-) 08:21:23 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [] 08:21:55 <Alberth> So that was not clear enough for me :) 08:24:02 * Alberth added a edit-note 08:24:10 <planetmaker> But he really makes it easy to be mis-understood, as he insists (and advocates) the use of unsafe actions ;-) 08:24:27 <Alberth> planetmaker: thanks for pointing it out 08:24:40 <planetmaker> I would not call it 'solved'. 'reproduced' is IMHO the proper word ;-) 08:24:49 <planetmaker> no problem :-) 08:25:23 <planetmaker> otherwise I'd solve many problems ;-) 08:25:27 * Alberth changed s/solved/reproduced/ 08:25:31 <planetmaker> :-D 08:25:38 * planetmaker hugs Alberth 08:25:51 <planetmaker> and hands a cup of tea (sorry, no coffee here in the office) 08:26:00 * Alberth hugs planetmaker 08:26:17 <Alberth> nice, some tea, goes well with my somewhat early lunch :) 08:26:49 <Alberth> euhm, 'office' and no coffee? 08:26:57 <Alberth> how can that be? 08:27:21 <planetmaker> :-) Oh, there'd be available coffee, if I preferred personally coffee over tea ;-) 08:27:40 <planetmaker> most people here actually drink coffee. And there's plenty around. Just not in my office ;-) 08:27:50 <planetmaker> and sorry, I was too lazy to get some from the spacebar ;-) 08:28:19 <Alberth> oh, tea is nice too, you cannot drink coffee all day 08:28:52 <Alberth> sandwich? 08:29:08 <planetmaker> sure, why not? Canteen is closed this week anyway 08:29:29 * Alberth gives planetmaker a sandwich 08:29:31 * peter1138 boggles at DHL 08:29:39 <planetmaker> yummi. Thanks :-) 08:29:46 <peter1138> package picked up at Swindon, then went to Heathrow, and is now at Gatwick... 08:30:39 <Alberth> I just knew these package tracking services would upset customers :p 08:32:04 <peter1138> not upset, just boggling :) 08:37:45 <planetmaker> peter1138: so did it leave a good impression? Rather not, it seems. Conclusion: detrimental 08:38:58 <peter1138> not... really... 08:39:02 <peter1138> it's a question of scale 08:39:07 <peter1138> when you consider one package, it's "wtf?" 08:40:09 <peter1138> when you consider they have to ship lots of stuff, there's a logic to it in reducing the total journeys 08:41:15 <planetmaker> of course. But do you (or any other customer) care about their internal logistics organization? 08:41:45 <Alberth> they just optimize to personnel costs rather than package travel distance 08:42:12 <peter1138> planetmaker, kinda. it would cost a lot more if they were to deliver it direct... 08:42:33 <peter1138> maybe i'm too reasonable :) 08:42:52 <peter1138> also i'm not expecting it until tomorrow, so until then .... :) 08:43:22 <planetmaker> peter1138: of course it'd cost a lot more to deliver directly. Still I don't care *how exactly* they route the mail I want to see delivered. 08:43:28 <planetmaker> I just want it reliable, fast and cheap 08:43:31 <Alberth> I am sure they can also optimize travel distance of your package against a price 08:43:46 <planetmaker> so the better measure would be ETA than place 08:45:32 <peter1138> i guess i'm just more geeky than you :) 08:45:41 <peter1138> i don't care how it's routed, but i don't mind knowing 08:47:11 <planetmaker> I don't mind either. But... it's pointless info really 08:48:20 *** Scuddles [~notme@cm14.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 08:48:45 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 09:26:58 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:29:53 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-202-63.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:39:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:39:41 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 09:48:26 *** keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:58:12 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2CB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:58:39 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 09:58:39 *** George is now known as Guest2877 09:58:39 *** George|2 is now known as George 10:01:16 *** Guest2877 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:30:55 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 11:14:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.172.146] has joined #openttd 11:20:24 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C01E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:26:13 *** RandomGuest1 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 11:26:38 <RandomGuest1> Yo 11:27:42 <planetmaker> hi 11:28:21 <RandomGuest1> hmm...i was gonna ask some questions about TTD, but no-one is on :\ 11:28:49 <V453000> :d 11:30:04 <RandomGuest1> i was gonna ask for some starting out tips because i can't make money "quickly" 11:31:12 <Alberth> cheat :) 11:31:35 <dihedral> http://www.break.com/pictures/buttlooga-2085495 11:31:37 <dihedral> :-D 11:31:37 <RandomGuest1> is that how real life companies do it now? They type in a cheat code? 11:31:39 <Alberth> or build an airplane connection between two cites 11:31:43 <dihedral> and hello 11:32:15 <Alberth> RandomGuest1: OpenTTD is a game about fun, not about real life, we already have way too much of that 11:32:42 <RandomGuest1> ahh it was a joke :P we should add nuclear reactors and uranium to the game though >.> *terrorist face* 11:34:54 <Alberth> why 11:34:57 <Mazur> I always find a simple run like a coal run generates enough profits to start up a company, though not as fast as a plane connection. 11:35:20 <Alberth> RandomGuest1: so you can do one transport of uranium every 20 years? 11:35:21 <Mazur> Alberth, he wants things to blow up. 11:35:28 <RandomGuest1> to nuke cities >.> 11:35:32 <V453000> ^ which most real companies do find some coal or planes :DDDDDDD 11:35:37 <V453000> D:DD 11:35:37 <Alberth> Mazur: with uranium? 11:35:50 <Mazur> Duno, ask him. 11:35:53 <Mazur> +n 11:35:58 <Alberth> RandomGuest1: that's not how real companies tend to operate :p 11:36:09 * planetmaker built a simple connection between one coal mine and a medium-distance power plant - and it seems to last me through the whole AI test game 11:36:18 <Mazur> Would work better than a geranium, at least. 11:36:21 <RandomGuest1> but what about the terrorist companies? They do it all the time! 11:36:43 <planetmaker> RandomGuest1: if you want to have terrorism, OpenTTD is not the game for you ;-) 11:36:55 <Mazur> No, they don't, they'dbe liable to prosecution. So they outsource it. 11:37:22 <RandomGuest1> what's really weird in the game is how random the buildings are placed...why are sawmills on the farm nowhere near a forest for? 11:37:36 <Mazur> Through a shell company ion the Bahamas, or Caymans, or what have you. 11:37:58 <Alberth> to give you transport opportunties of course 11:37:59 * V453000 is now officially the enemy of realism 11:38:12 <V453000> ^ if someone didnt notice :P 11:38:47 <Alberth> V453000: I just ignore it in all OpenTTD game discussions :) 11:39:04 <peter1138> V453000, uh... you'll have to fight Belugas for that spot :D 11:39:15 <V453000> :D 11:39:29 <planetmaker> :-) 11:39:38 <V453000> good 11:39:40 <planetmaker> it's an established title, indeed 11:40:32 <RandomGuest1> buses: do you recomend? 11:40:55 <planetmaker> why not? 11:41:17 <planetmaker> generally it's a good idea to ship cargo no to the nearest destination but some medium-range distance 11:41:37 <planetmaker> 100 ... 200 tiles is a good starting distance for your first route 11:42:13 <RandomGuest1> that's like......1/2 of the 256x256 map 11:42:42 <planetmaker> so? 11:42:51 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecj177.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:42:59 <RandomGuest1> aw well, i guess you can make the track go in circles 11:43:37 <__ln__> you also can use a hammer to paint a wall 11:45:09 <Alberth> Trains can also reverse 11:45:10 <Sacro> RandomGuest1: that won't work 11:45:42 <Sacro> it'll travel the same distance but will take longer 11:45:46 <RandomGuest1> k 11:48:21 <RandomGuest1> 48k train income and 23k plane income for first year 11:51:40 <RandomGuest1> you really think a 150 tile long train line is gonna get me good cash? 11:53:31 <Alberth> tias 11:54:09 <RandomGuest1> woah that does make a lot of cash 11:54:30 <planetmaker> 150 tile long train route: yes. 150 tile long train: not possible ;-) 11:58:59 * Mazur is a champion of Total Transport. 11:59:17 <Mazur> Using all manner of transport mode. 11:59:45 <Alberth> in all climates? 12:00:18 <Mazur> Well, using ships in a desert is a tad tricky, but otherwise: yes. 12:01:00 <Alberth> luckily canals do keep filled even in the desert :) 12:01:28 <Mazur> Let me rephrase that: I _like_ it when all manner of transport is used, but not stupidly. 12:01:46 <peter1138> heh, and the package arrived 30 minutes ago 12:02:23 <RandomGuest1> you can use ships in deserts as "fake" tourists attractions! too bad this isn't tourist tycoon... 12:03:20 <Mazur> And I also dislike the kind of unrealism like e.g. ships behaving like planes. 12:03:40 <V453000> ships fly? 12:04:02 <planetmaker> eh? 12:04:19 <planetmaker> I've not seen a ship 'fly' over mountains or desert tiles 12:05:50 <Mazur> No, but if they were allowed, it'd be dead against it. 12:05:53 <RandomGuest1> is there a way to quickly move trains from depot to depot? 12:06:36 <Alberth> clone and destroy the original, but that is not really move 12:07:37 <RandomGuest1> im thinking of calling my company "Unneccesairly expensive goods travel service" 12:13:20 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8175:49b5:a32d:afc0] has joined #openttd 12:13:23 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:15:03 <RandomGuest1> question: if railstations A, B, C and D exist, all of them have ONE track, A and B are one supply line while C and D are another. If the tracks meet at one point, would both supply lines still work? 12:15:21 <planetmaker> depends on signals 12:15:45 <RandomGuest1> so i just need signals and it'll work? 12:15:58 *** ar3k [~ident@ecq82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:16:01 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw 12:16:11 <Alberth> but if you have no traffic between B and C, there is no need to connect them 12:16:32 <RandomGuest1> it's mainly industry locations... 12:16:44 <RandomGuest1> A would be NW, B is SE, C is SW and D is NE 12:17:14 <planetmaker> well, you can build arbitrarily complex rail networks 12:17:27 <planetmaker> you can even implement an ALU with openttd's rails and signals... 12:17:39 <planetmaker> i.e. simulate a pocket calculator with it 12:17:58 <planetmaker> but that is done only by crazy people :-P 12:18:52 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 12:19:07 <planetmaker> RandomGuest1: just _a_ signal at _a random_ place won't do it. But it needs to be the proper one at the proper place. Which depends on network layouts 12:20:28 <Alberth> ^ and finding out how to do that is the first step to becoming very addicted to OpenTTD :p 12:20:48 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 12:21:48 <RandomGuest1> ok i need to find which one is used for rails..hmm 12:22:15 <Alberth> they all are ;) 12:22:28 <RandomGuest1> o god 12:22:30 <RandomGuest1> what can go wrong? 12:23:28 <Alberth> You may want to read http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals although I'd skip the pre-signals 12:23:52 <Alberth> they are not so relevant anymore since we have the path signals 12:24:45 <Alberth> in the See Also section at the bottom are other tutorials, which explain in more detail 12:29:33 *** fjb is now known as Guest2888 12:29:35 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFEFAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:34:18 *** RandomGuest1 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:35:54 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:44 *** Guest2888 [~frank@p5DDFD7C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:42:03 <planetmaker> http://video.linux.com/video/2127 :-) 12:42:15 <planetmaker> so... happy birthday linux 12:43:00 <planetmaker> and obviously also a good add for MS 12:56:40 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:59:25 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db19187.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:00:58 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 13:02:20 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:10:48 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:11:46 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 13:17:00 *** Goat [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:18:09 *** Goat [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 13:21:50 <Belugas> hi 13:26:09 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 13:28:09 <Belugas> [07:42] <@peter1138> V453000, uh... you'll have to fight Belugas for that spot :D <-- I'm not a fighter! I'll gladly share that spot :D The more we are on it, the more efficiently we can fight this monstruosity!!! 13:33:21 <planetmaker> :-) 13:33:40 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:42:27 <peter1138> hehe 13:46:29 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://dev.openttdcoop.org - never quits] 13:46:42 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Bye - http.//dev.openttdcoop.org] 13:46:44 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: You must construct additional PYLONS to get me back!] 13:46:47 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 13:47:18 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:47:47 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:47:47 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:47:49 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Ehm.. Quit? What's That?] 13:47:56 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 13:48:18 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:48:47 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:52:18 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:18 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 13:52:21 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:18 *** SmatZ- [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:54:18 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:54:37 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:48 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:54:48 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:54:51 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 13:55:18 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:58:57 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:59:19 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Bye - http.//dev.openttdcoop.org] 13:59:22 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 14:00:08 *** SmatZ- [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 14:00:17 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:00:19 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:31 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Ehm.. Quit? What's That?] 14:01:48 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:48 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:51 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 14:02:17 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:02:17 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:04:44 *** glx_ [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8175:49b5:a32d:afc0] has joined #openttd 14:04:45 *** glx is now known as Guest2896 14:04:45 *** glx_ is now known as glx 14:06:22 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 14:06:52 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Ehm.. Quit? What's That?] 14:07:17 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:07:50 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:55 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 14:08:18 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:08:18 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:08:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 14:08:47 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:11:17 *** Guest2896 [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8175:49b5:a32d:afc0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:14:29 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 14:14:47 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:22:03 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:20 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:29:26 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:28 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 14:34:19 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:34:30 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 14:35:17 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:35:17 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:35:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 14:36:50 <dihedral> hello SmatZ 14:37:09 <dihedral> uh - haydn ... :-P 14:37:34 <planetmaker> hello dihedral :-) 14:37:40 <planetmaker> do you feel the music? :-P 14:37:41 <dihedral> hey ho pm 14:37:50 <dihedral> i feal the beat :-P 14:47:37 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:50:07 *** hozza [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:50:31 *** hozza [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 14:58:44 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 15:13:43 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:09 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo] 15:18:00 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:21:23 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> two NML questions: how do i set the additional descritption text for the buy window, and can i assemble that from multiple strings? 15:35:34 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e090e25.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 15:36:24 <Hirundo> a) with the additional_text callback, b) I don't know for sure 15:37:07 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:40:38 <Hirundo> After a quick inspection I'm pretty sure b) is not possible, it'd be a nice feature though 15:40:55 <planetmaker> I haven't tried to assemble it from multiple strings... are parameters possible there? 15:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> from the openttd side, i'm sure it's possible, just has to be usefully exposed to NFO/NML 15:42:10 <Hirundo> I'm not sure if ottd uses true concatenation or just sub-strings 15:43:10 <Rubidium> there is barely any 'just' concatenation in OpenTTD 15:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that is needed is a way to push a parameter to the stack in a varaction 2, the rest should already be handled by openttd 15:46:34 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 15:47:50 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. error messages already have parameters, there is just no way to influence them from the grf 15:49:44 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo] 15:53:10 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f735b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:56:26 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> warning: soup is both hot and hot. 16:02:50 <Prof_Frink> Mmm, hot soup. 16:16:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22675 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt main_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.h): -Change: Add a menu entry for the sprite bounding box debuging feature in the help menu and enable bounding boxes only in conjunction with the newgrf developer tools 16:22:57 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:31:49 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.167.141] has joined #openttd 16:32:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how do you translate 'bounding box'? 16:32:48 <planetmaker> 'umschlieÃendes Rechteck'? gar nicht? 'Zeichen-box'? 16:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "Quader", not "Rechteck"? 16:34:00 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 16:34:00 <planetmaker> point taken. yes 16:36:18 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFEFAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:16 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFEFAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:47:30 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 16:50:39 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:08:53 <planetmaker> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Software-Hersteller-raten-Musikern-vom-Upgrade-auf-Lion-ab-1283034.html <-- sounds like fun ahead with the midi interface... 17:13:20 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo] 17:22:52 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 17:27:15 * MNIM reads the word 'mac' 17:27:23 *** Scuddles [~notme@cm14.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 17:27:26 * MNIM disregards rest, goes "UGH" and closes tab 17:27:48 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, in the future you should be able to do string(STR_XX, param1, param2, .. , paramn) 17:28:44 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: if I wanted to start messing around with making train newGRFs would you know a good article I could read? 17:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: how far future? 17:31:39 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: I guess there's not much more than the documentation and looking at other newgrfs' code 17:32:07 <Hirundo> dunno, there's a lot of stuff that I'd want to be coded yesterday 17:32:24 <planetmaker> :-D 17:32:55 <Chris_Booth> no wiki, blog or forum posts about nfo? 17:33:17 <planetmaker> well... what do you need / want? 17:33:33 <planetmaker> The NML forum thread certainly has *something* about it, including a comparision nml/ nfo 17:33:55 <planetmaker> But... 17:35:34 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Are the string parameters you'd want to use (compile-time) constants, or are they variable? 17:35:42 <Chris_Booth> see I don't even know what NML is, all I want to do it mess around with some train sprites I have made 17:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: currently probably constant, but my speciality is finding cases where the previously valid boundaries do not hold anymore :p 17:36:39 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: then I suggest you start with the NML docs 17:36:53 <planetmaker> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html 17:37:00 <Chris_Booth> thanks planetmaker 17:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: the case i have in mind is putting a string like "Axle Weight: {NUM}" 17:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> or "Track type: {STRING}" 17:37:41 <Rubidium> planetmaker: does that read like the same old story again? Apple breaks API, OpenTTD will not support new version until someone fixes it 17:39:36 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I don't know. I haven't downloaded nor tested it yet. But... that article lets me assume that things might be broken 17:40:03 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:41:04 <Chris_Booth> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NFOFoundations <--- this is the most useless wiki article ever 17:41:43 <planetmaker> certainly not 17:41:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22676 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt french.txt german.txt spanish.txt): 17:41:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:41:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Harlequin 17:41:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium 17:41:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx 17:41:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker 17:41:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 6 changes by Terkhen 17:42:15 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I'll add a feature request to the tracker, but I can't promise it'll get done soon 17:42:37 <Chris_Booth> it is planetmaker all the links it talks about are broken 17:43:00 <Chris_Booth> it is as much use as a map to a road that has been dug up 17:43:43 <planetmaker> and if you look a bit more closely at the link you'll just noticed that they're missing a single space character 17:45:25 <planetmaker> acutally s@|@ @g 17:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> someone's conversion script failed ;) 17:48:19 <Chris_Booth> thanks planetmaker for fixing the link 17:49:20 <planetmaker> psst, Eddi|zuHause ;-) 17:53:12 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.76.63] has joined #openttd 17:53:51 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:00:08 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 18:08:30 *** keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:12:50 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:12:54 <Wolf01> hello 18:13:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:13:41 <planetmaker> hi wolf 18:15:31 <andythenorth> guten abend 18:15:38 <andythenorth> namaste 18:15:42 <andythenorth> hola 18:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> nastarovje 18:16:16 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:17:07 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth 18:18:23 <andythenorth> hmm 18:18:45 <andythenorth> are there any newgrfs that disable themselves if palette is wrong? 18:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen any, but allegedly they exist 18:26:01 <andythenorth> this newgrf spec is problematic :P 18:27:18 <andythenorth> maybe we should eliminate the windows palette? 18:27:46 * andythenorth is deadly serious 18:28:01 *** jrabbit [~jackirssi@74-222-207-54.dyn.everestkc.net] has joined #openttd 18:28:19 <jrabbit> my friend is having problems running openttd on debian lstable 18:28:34 <jrabbit> http://pastebin.com/iCxmrBP9 & http://pastebin.com/W2rwm1GF 18:28:44 <andythenorth> despite I would have to pal-convert every single grf I've worked on 18:28:56 <andythenorth> or prevent the newgrf from being able to detect palette 18:29:13 <andythenorth> or require the newgrf to set palette, prevent user from doing so 18:30:21 <andythenorth> basically the current possibilities are stupid 18:30:33 <Rubidium> jrabbit: sounds like a too old version of the graphics files for the version of OpenTTD you're running (the grf stuff that is) 18:30:38 <andythenorth> not allowing user to change palette is currently correct, but hugely sub-optimal 18:30:44 <andythenorth> (during game) 18:31:17 <Rubidium> the other stuff is something with the sound driver which is rather something caused by/to be fixed by the library we use for sound playback 18:31:17 <andythenorth> assuming grf doesn't use action 14....it's basically a crap shoot 18:31:29 <andythenorth> the chance for each grf of picking right palette is 50:50 18:31:38 <jrabbit> Rubidium: odd 18:31:54 <andythenorth> and any wrong choice can ruin my game, but I might not find out for 50 years of gameplay 18:32:14 <andythenorth> when I found out an essential grf disabled itself 18:32:42 <Rubidium> jrabbit: well, your friend has installed a newer version of OpenTTD than the one Debian provides. Nothing odd about that 18:33:04 <Rubidium> what would help him is updating the base graphics from inside the game 18:34:32 <andythenorth> could grf version 8 ditch TTDP compatibility? And deprecate / mandate certain things? 18:34:35 <jrabbit> is there a way to name my server in the directory? 18:34:47 * jrabbit started it with -D 18:35:21 <Rubidium> you can at least set it in the config file; only change it while OpenTTD is stopped or you run it with -x (don't save config file upon exit) 18:35:43 <Rubidium> there's like a setting to modify it in-game as well 18:35:49 <jrabbit> ah 18:36:21 <Rubidium> try set server_name "boring name" 18:36:25 <Rubidium> in the console 18:39:26 <jrabbit> LSA lib pcm.c:7223:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured is thatwarning or critical? 18:39:29 <jrabbit> *ALSA 18:39:30 <jrabbit> from his logs 18:40:12 <jrabbit> he says he doesn't see *any* servers ethier in the multiplayer list after switching it to internet 18:42:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth: grfv8 could certainly require certain things to be true or done or whatever 18:42:34 <jrabbit> Rubidium: dpoes the server need the graphics? 18:43:12 <jrabbit> it stops on authorizing he says 18:43:38 <andythenorth> I wouldn't mind losing compatibility with lots of grfs 18:43:55 <andythenorth> it would bring into sharp focus the need to not be stupid about licensing 18:44:40 <andythenorth> "Your favourite grf doesn't work any more, and it's not sensibly licensed? Tough" :P 18:45:20 <supermop_> why do we still have 2 palettes anyway? 18:46:13 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins 18:46:17 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:46:21 <jrabbit> hes goign to try on widnows :\ 18:46:24 <jrabbit> oh well 18:46:28 <andythenorth> and removing windows palette would cause whining 18:46:34 <andythenorth> hmm 18:46:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: grfv8 won't stop the backward compatibility hell 18:46:43 <jrabbit> he couldn't conenct to this network even so I think something is FUBAR'd on his debian 18:46:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why not? I am prepared to have my eyes opened :) 18:47:25 <supermop_> ive drawn everything in win palette because i didn't know i could do otherwise 18:47:31 <andythenorth> supermop_: same for me 18:47:40 <supermop_> will I have to redraw everything? 18:47:44 <andythenorth> it's stupid to be able to make the wrong choice as an author 18:48:00 <supermop_> or can it be corrected in an automated fashion 18:48:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: removing backward compatibility for *all* newgrfs (and it would be that for a time), certainly won't buy friends 18:48:30 <planetmaker> supermop_: conversion windows -> dos is automatable 18:48:33 <andythenorth> supermop_: palette can be remapped with a photoshop action or such 18:49:16 <supermop_> could it be roadmapped, to give people x months to update grfs? 18:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can convert the palette with grfcodec 18:49:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why does it remove backward compatibility for all? 18:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> like "grfcodec -d -p2" and "grfcodec -e -p1" 18:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> to convert a windows grf to dos palette 18:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe one can scan the newgrf whether it reads the current palette in action 6/7/9/D. and disable switching then? 18:52:49 * andythenorth would prefer a nuclear solution :P One palette 18:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also disable if it provides palette in action 14 18:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the button is basically for "legacy" grfs 18:53:28 <andythenorth> because action 14 is the mandated method... 18:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> +it's one of those things that may be handled better if we could assemble a grf config and check for errors in the "background", without disturbing the currently loaded game 18:56:11 <andythenorth> grftopia would somewhat solve it 18:56:17 <andythenorth> but grtopia will have a lot to check for 18:56:34 <andythenorth> this palette thing is stupid from an authoring perspective too 18:56:51 <andythenorth> 'no right way' just makes authoring needlessly complex 18:57:11 <andythenorth> nothing is gained by palette being an option when authoring 18:57:32 <planetmaker> Well, a grf v8 could ask for the dos palette. Though there's no good reason for that. Rather the variable to query the palette could be removed 18:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> edit all tutorials out there to remove the windows palette 18:57:50 <andythenorth> removing the var would be my suggestion 18:57:52 <planetmaker> and mandatory palette definition in a14 18:57:56 <andythenorth> exactly 18:58:00 <andythenorth> 100% straightforward 18:58:34 <andythenorth> someone will now find the fricking unsolvable edge case :P 18:58:44 <andythenorth> probably involving an author no-one wants to offend :P 18:58:47 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GRF_Version_8 <-- off you go 18:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but this will not help, because old grfs may still query the palette 18:59:02 <planetmaker> add it there 18:59:16 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:59:25 <andythenorth> announce that at some point, only grf v8 will be supported :P 18:59:34 <andythenorth> with maybe 1 year pre-warning 18:59:40 <planetmaker> at least one year 18:59:55 <planetmaker> such things rather require a two-year rythm 18:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> now that is a stupid idea 19:00:05 <andythenorth> why? 19:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> we're not apple 19:00:10 <Rubidium> pff... OpenTTD only does the DOS palette, doesn't it? 19:00:12 <andythenorth> backwards compatibility is a right arse 19:00:29 <Rubidium> it happily converts it upon loading 19:00:57 <andythenorth> so a newgrf that disables due to wrong palette is...what? wrong? 19:01:09 <Lakie> Old? 19:01:12 <andythenorth> well-intentionedly wrong? 19:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is one broken newgrf, instead of 200 19:01:30 <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, if it does that it's pre action14 19:01:31 <Lakie> I imagine its mostly older grfs which existed before automatic palette convrsion was in OpenTTD. 19:01:55 <andythenorth> and no-one can fix these grfs? 19:01:55 <Rubidium> the problem is that it isn't fully automatic 19:02:11 <Rubidium> we don't detect the palette from the NewGRF; it needs to be specified some way 19:02:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how many grfs are still in the grf-pack and not on bananas? 19:02:42 <andythenorth> no idea 19:03:04 <Rubidium> too many I fear 19:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: too many 19:03:18 <andythenorth> hm 19:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the same thing will happen if you force grf version 8 19:03:39 <andythenorth> so the alternatives are: 19:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and there is actually no good reason to do that 19:03:52 <andythenorth> - continue allowing users to play broken games with no warning 19:04:02 <andythenorth> - go on a crazy coding mission to implement grftopia 19:04:10 <andythenorth> - ?? 19:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> - profit 19:04:33 <andythenorth> hmm 19:04:56 <andythenorth> what is the marginal profit on a download of openttd? 19:05:06 <andythenorth> :P 19:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the joy that your hard work gets appreciated 19:05:34 <andythenorth> I like the idea of breaking loads of newgrfs 19:05:40 <andythenorth> it would make the forums interesting 19:05:48 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 19:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean more than "please allow changing newgrfs in the game" conversations? 19:06:15 <planetmaker> you don't want to become the anti-thesis of certain people, do you? 19:06:23 <Rubidium> andythenorth: and at the same moment break savegame backward compatability, right? 19:06:49 <andythenorth> yup 19:06:49 <andythenorth> none of you like my suggestion? :P 19:07:38 <andythenorth> hmm ok 19:07:50 <planetmaker> well, the backward thing could be solved by simply disallowing any newgrf change in a backward compatible mode 19:07:50 <andythenorth> it would help if knew what I was talking about a bit more 19:08:06 <planetmaker> still, I don't think to disallow all non grf-v8 newgrfs is the path to go 19:08:16 <Rubidium> well, personally I'd just drop the old crap. But that's because I don't use it, however I don't fancy the amount of whining that comes from that 19:08:36 <planetmaker> that's the worst 19:08:39 <andythenorth> they'll whine, but not lift a finger to update it? 19:08:55 <planetmaker> those who whine are incapable 19:08:59 <Rubidium> it's more $stupid user 19:09:03 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:09:05 * andythenorth is puzzled 19:09:11 <Rubidium> that is addicted to $old newgrf 19:09:26 <Rubidium> and is able to whine like a spambot 19:09:28 <andythenorth> so old versions of openttd stopped working? I don't think so 19:09:46 * andythenorth is still puzzled 19:09:53 <Rubidium> try 0.3.5 on Lion ;) 19:09:55 <supermop_> but thats like a defacto fork of openttd 19:09:56 <planetmaker> I can't run and compile OpenTTD <~0.3 or so 19:09:59 <andythenorth> I only suggested this to try and help some of the users who are whining 19:10:11 <andythenorth> not being able to change the palette is technically correct 19:10:17 <planetmaker> those binaries don't work anymore ;-) 19:10:18 <andythenorth> but stupid from a user p.o.v 19:10:22 <alluke> lion is junk? 19:10:23 <supermop_> if you force a certain set of people to never use >1.1.x 19:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like MorphOS users? 19:12:49 <andythenorth> the only way to remove something like detecting palette is a grf version change 19:13:16 <andythenorth> but if grf version can't be enforced, nothing is gained 19:13:16 <Rubidium> action14 works fine for that 19:13:25 <andythenorth> but not for this case of old grfs 19:13:36 <andythenorth> if we need to keep old grfs we're stuck with broken behaviour :( 19:13:42 * andythenorth is baffled 19:13:58 * andythenorth plays dice wars 19:14:03 <Rubidium> yeah, but action14 or grfv8 are equal with respect to what they can achieve 19:14:10 <Wolf01> does somebody know how to add multiple items svn:ignore with "svn propset"? 19:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is a forced grf version bump going to help with old grfs better than a non-mandatory action 14? 19:14:35 <Wolf01> s/items/items to 19:14:44 <andythenorth> I am missing the point somewhere 19:14:49 <Rubidium> Wolf01: items = files? 19:14:55 <andythenorth> we already have non-mandatory action 14, but we still have this problem 19:14:57 <Wolf01> files, folders... 19:14:57 <andythenorth> so that's no answer 19:15:19 <Wolf01> I need to set ._* recuirsively for files and _sourced as folder 19:15:28 <Wolf01> *sources 19:15:33 <Rubidium> Wolf01: I'd say find and xargs should do the job 19:16:15 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just start with requiring action14. No need to go to grfv8 to do that 19:16:28 <andythenorth> but then old grfs don't work? 19:16:38 * andythenorth is feeling dumb 19:16:44 <Rubidium> which is exactly what grfv8 would do 19:16:51 <planetmaker> :-) 19:17:06 <jrabbit> if I change the map x/y in the cfg will the server generated map be larger? 19:17:15 <andythenorth> but doesn't breaking old grfs demands a grf version change? :o 19:17:49 <andythenorth> where is the variable for the palette anyway? I can't find it in specs 19:17:55 <Rubidium> only if the behaviour of variables/properties changes 19:18:25 <Rubidium> after all, if you add a very recent property in a NewGRF without 'escaping' it, it doesn't work in older versions of OpenTTD 19:18:39 <Rubidium> because it doesn't know that property it disables (part of) the NewGRF 19:18:55 <andythenorth> so I misunderstood the purpose of grf versions 19:19:02 <andythenorth> they're not particularly stable 19:19:12 <alluke> lakie 19:19:29 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:19:30 <planetmaker> what *might* be an idea is similar to noai api: newgrf compatibility flag. Thus if all active newgrfs play by certain version rules, other things like adding newgrfs become possible 19:19:50 <planetmaker> simply on grounds that they - according to the specs - cannot do something bad, like disable thmeselves 19:20:20 <Rubidium> but you need to know whether the to be added NewGRF does the same 19:20:38 <planetmaker> yes. Which would be indicated by an appropriate action14 entry or so 19:20:41 <Rubidium> (I seem to remember a (mis)feature that allows disabling of other NewGRFs) 19:20:43 <planetmaker> otherwise: unsafe 19:21:13 <andythenorth> ^^ World's Most Broken Newgrf feature 19:21:16 <Rubidium> and then you'll quickly get questions: why can't X be added by Y can be? 19:21:26 <planetmaker> thus: certain things are not allowed in a newgrf when it declares a certain action14 entry 19:21:33 <Rubidium> s/by/but/ 19:21:37 <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure one will get that. 19:21:44 <planetmaker> But better than none, right? 19:21:48 <andythenorth> we swap one class of whining for another 19:21:51 <planetmaker> and the easy answer is: "old newgrf" 19:21:52 <andythenorth> but maybe a better class 19:22:05 <andythenorth> 'lobby your newgrf author for an upgrade' 19:22:09 <andythenorth> he 19:22:17 * andythenorth might be able to find a dalestan quote 19:22:20 <Rubidium> but what when the NewGRF author lies? 19:22:34 <planetmaker> probably this would require to remove all fatal newgrf errors and all options to query other newgrfs 19:22:40 <Rubidium> we'll get back in the same piece of shit once again 19:22:40 <andythenorth> things seem to have gone a bit wrong somewhere 19:23:01 <planetmaker> Rubidium: it requires to remove the newgrfs ability to depend on others. Hard way 19:23:02 <andythenorth> the duty of the game is to maintain a reasonably sane API 19:23:10 <planetmaker> otherwise unsafe. Thus... no grf checks then 19:23:10 <andythenorth> the duty of newgrf authors is to keep up with that 19:23:19 <andythenorth> currently the API is insane 19:23:31 <andythenorth> and newgrf authors are apparently to be treated with kid gloves 19:23:33 <Rubidium> yeah, it's inherited by some 'insane' people 19:23:37 <planetmaker> thus also no check for other grfs or their parameters 19:23:45 <andythenorth> but there are only two who really whine badly 19:23:49 <andythenorth> and one is refusing to support ottd 19:23:54 <andythenorth> and the other doesn't release 19:24:02 <andythenorth> and insists ttdp is the reference spec 19:24:03 <Rubidium> andythenorth: if you make the NewGRF specs sane, you're basically adding something completely new 19:24:12 <Lakie> Eh, MB and SAC? 19:24:18 <andythenorth> 'reasonably sane' 19:24:20 <Lakie> MB has been using Openn for aa while 19:24:22 <andythenorth> nothing is actually sane 19:24:38 <planetmaker> Lakie: oz 19:24:51 <Rubidium> sane, reasonably sane... all the same when talking about NewGRFs ;) 19:25:01 <Rubidium> unimaginable 19:25:06 <Lakie> I thought OzTrans isue was with some things not matching specs? 19:25:07 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=37389&p=706015&hilit=behooves#p706015 19:25:17 <andythenorth> "As a coder in a rather disturbingly dynamic language, it behooves you to watch the spec and read every single change. Old limitations may disappear or new abilities may appear, and if you don't pay attention, you come out ... well, "smelling like roses" it ain't." - DaleStan 19:25:24 <Rubidium> Lakie: nah, not implementing it fast enough 19:25:37 * andythenorth misses the dalestan attitude 19:25:43 <Lakie> Heh, thats such a minor point really. 19:25:52 <Lakie> Not one to hold releases back by 19:26:10 <andythenorth> basically a load of newgrf authors are lazy, misinformed, stupid or absent. And they made bad choices about licenses. Meanwhile player suffers. 19:26:37 <Rubidium> so, better go for something completely different; something completely not NewGRF 19:26:44 <andythenorth> that is interesting 19:26:47 <Rubidium> something much more sane and human friendly 19:27:04 <planetmaker> xml? 19:27:06 <andythenorth> that wasn't what I was advocating :P 19:27:06 <Rubidium> woepsie... there goes support for the original graphics 19:27:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you shouldn't break something subtly. That's going to haunt you for years 19:27:51 <andythenorth> break it big :D 19:28:10 <Rubidium> but that'd be more OpenTTD II 19:28:29 <Rubidium> which won't be able to load OpenTTD (I) savegames anymore 19:28:39 <Lakie> I remember Oskar suggesting some half scripting engine thingy 19:29:30 <andythenorth> bah 19:29:40 <Rubidium> but given the fact that OpenTTD's development seems to be crawling to a standstill lately I don't think it'll happen any time soon 19:30:09 <andythenorth> it's probably 'done' 19:30:22 <andythenorth> no interesting problems left 19:30:26 <andythenorth> time for something new? 19:30:33 <andythenorth> my projects are now a chore, not fun 19:31:12 * Rubidium hopes somebody has some nice system for the compile farm that works reasonably out-of-the-box 19:31:43 <Rubidium> as buildbot is just a disaster for our wishes 19:31:49 <planetmaker> not in love with it buildbot, eh? 19:32:08 <Rubidium> it'll work fine for a single repository with a single trigger for compilation 19:32:18 <Rubidium> single automatic trigger that is 19:32:26 <Rubidium> but two triggers: doesn't work 19:32:41 <andythenorth> if yacd was in trunk + eddi's crossing patch, "it's done" 19:32:52 <andythenorth> who gets to make the last commit? :D 19:33:04 <alluke> lakie 19:33:15 <Lakie> Yes, alluke? 19:33:17 <alluke> any progress? 19:33:22 <Rubidium> e.g. nightly builds + ci on limited amount of CFs fails to trigger the nightly build because the last version was already compiled (by the ci) 19:33:49 <Rubidium> and fetching from different repositories is something that fails pretty much as well 19:33:53 <andythenorth> "rxxxxx: last commit. Good bye" :P 19:34:21 <Alberth> rxxxxx: that's all folks! 19:34:30 <Rubidium> all wrong.... 19:34:35 <Rubidium> -Release: 42 19:34:44 <Lakie> Not too much, been fairly busy this week alluke. I was in the process of working out which FIRS cargos to use on wagons last I was working on it. 19:34:52 <planetmaker> would hudson / jenkins be an alternative? 19:34:58 <andythenorth> finish in style :) 19:35:02 <alluke> ok 19:35:08 <alluke> you can always ask me if you need to 19:35:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: hudson runs everything locally IIRC 19:35:15 <alluke> btw 19:35:22 <alluke> will they use cargo classes? 19:36:23 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and that means only Linux builds (or cross compiles) 19:37:10 *** jrabbit [~jackirssi@74-222-207-54.dyn.everestkc.net] has left #openttd [] 19:37:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium: allegedly they support distributed builds 19:38:18 <andythenorth> if it was 'done' all feature request / whining threads could simply be locked :) 19:38:19 <Rubidium> I didn't find anything in the documentation 19:38:22 <andythenorth> and all tickets closed 19:39:01 <Wolf01> Terkhen, is it yours the svn-script project on google code? :D 19:39:04 <Lakie> It'd be hard to use the FIRs cargos without cargo classes, or atleast, considerbly more messy. 19:39:17 <alluke> ok cool 19:39:19 <andythenorth> I closed a trac for a big piece of software earlier this year. Marked 150 tickets as "won't fix" and shut it :) 19:39:37 *** jrabbit [~jackirssi@74-222-207-54.dyn.everestkc.net] has joined #openttd 19:39:52 <jrabbit> ok so we got him hostign a game on windows, he has 3979 opened on the router 19:39:59 <jrabbit> but the game gets stuck on "authorizing" 19:40:10 <jrabbit> and shows it offline 19:40:11 <planetmaker> Rubidium: https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Distributed+builds 19:41:08 <planetmaker> but I'm not 100% sure whether it's just sharing CPU or really building different archs 19:42:01 <jrabbit> gah this is such a shame, openttd worked great last time I played multiplayer 19:42:31 <Alberth> opened both tcp and udp? 19:42:48 <jrabbit> 3979/tcp open unknown 19:42:51 <Rubidium> why-o-why are we still using ipv4 and nat? 19:42:51 <jrabbit> only tcp 19:42:58 <jrabbit> does it need udp as well? 19:43:04 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:06 <jrabbit> (I assume nmap would tell me) 19:43:07 <Alberth> @ports 19:43:07 <DorpsGek> Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound) 19:44:04 <Alberth> this text seems to suggest you do 19:45:09 <planetmaker> jrabbit: the better reference than nmap would actually be OpenTTD's documentation. Which mentions the ports and the protocols 19:45:49 <jrabbit> planetmaker: well I was jsut testing if he opened it 19:46:01 <jrabbit> hes having issues... 19:48:36 <frosch123> can someone summarise the result of the discussion of the last two hours? 19:48:57 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.48.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:49:20 <planetmaker> frosch123: no real summary possible as there's no real conclusion 19:49:26 <frosch123> why bother with old grfs and nfo stuff when we have nml? 19:49:40 <planetmaker> no, not that. NML had no bearing there 19:49:44 <planetmaker> it was purely about specs 19:49:46 <frosch123> just make sure nml produces sane stuff 19:50:05 <Alberth> but that needs new sane primitives 19:50:26 <planetmaker> about newgrf-interoperability and how the current specs sink 9 out of 10 hopes to get a good solution there 19:50:44 <frosch123> Alberth: sorry, i misworded. just make sure the input of nml is sane 19:51:16 <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't forget savegame compatability regarding breaking stuff 19:51:26 <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, was it about "newgrf authors are not able to cooperate, so openttd has to do it" ? 19:51:49 <Alberth> more like let's ditch the current specs 19:52:30 <planetmaker> in the end effect, yes. And about what to do with the old shit^Wstuff which is uncooperative 19:52:33 <frosch123> do we have a better one? 19:53:23 <andythenorth> it pretty much does come down to "newgrf authors are not able to cooperate, so openttd has to do it" 19:53:28 <andythenorth> except openttd can't 19:53:30 <andythenorth> and shouldn't 19:54:02 * andythenorth is still puzzled 19:54:24 <andythenorth> why do some badly-behaved newgrf authors - who aren't around any more - get to define what the spec should be? 19:54:51 <andythenorth> ^ (probably aren't around) 19:55:36 <Rubidium> they defined it the way it is 19:55:56 <Rubidium> if you want to keep compatability (savegame and/or 'mods'), you need to keep supporting the old crap 19:56:08 <andythenorth> where is the var for palette anyway? I can't find it? 19:56:16 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-27-86.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:56:36 <alluke> colossal made set of small cars years ago 19:56:44 <alluke> but they dont work on new ottd 19:56:46 <alluke> grrrrrrr 19:56:49 <andythenorth> if we keep supporting the old crap, we're supporting incompatibilty 19:56:55 <andythenorth> e.g. disabling other grfs 19:57:05 <andythenorth> and allowing newgrf to care about palette 19:57:06 <frosch123> why do you bother about the palette? 19:57:12 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the var in which context? 19:57:29 <andythenorth> the var that the newgrf checks before it disables itself, breaking the game 19:57:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the whole issue is about newgrfs knowing about eachother 19:57:42 <Rubidium> global pallete? default pallete? palette of the loaded newgrf? 19:57:56 <Alberth> which gets worse with town control :p 19:57:57 <frosch123> err, isn't the palette issue somewhat solved? 19:58:02 <planetmaker> if that door was completely shut, many issues would be gone or at least made much less severe 19:58:10 <Rubidium> andythenorth: in GRFConfig::palette? 19:58:17 <frosch123> ottd has only one palette now, new grfs can specify their palette, so why bother about old ones? 19:58:35 <andythenorth> search of newgrf wiki doesn't produce any useful results 19:58:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: action 7 19:59:06 <andythenorth> thanks 19:59:27 <Rubidium> in that context: var 8D 20:00:12 <andythenorth> ah 20:00:21 <andythenorth> and that var is useful for ottd how? 20:00:31 <andythenorth> apart from it allows newgrfs to break a game 20:00:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: why? 20:00:57 <frosch123> the user resp. the grf can basically choose what it shall return 20:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> why-o-why are we still using ipv4 and nat? <-- it's a failure of politics (who don't understand anything technical) to enforce transition on the monopoly-like structures of large ISPs 20:01:43 <andythenorth> if the user sets the wrong palette (which is basically a 50:50 coin flip) then they can play 50 years before discovering an important grf is disabled 20:01:53 <andythenorth> there is no way to know what the correct palette is 20:01:58 <andythenorth> so it's a crap shoot 20:02:06 <andythenorth> multiplied by the number of grfs 20:02:18 <andythenorth> so basically any game is almost certainly broken 20:02:18 <Rubidium> 99% of the cases it's Windows 20:02:55 <frosch123> i do not see the point in your argument 20:03:11 <frosch123> shall we only allow grfs with dos palette? 20:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> now it's like microsoft saying: "we won't implement it [in older/widespread windows versions] because the ISPs don't use it" and the ISPs saying "we won't use it, because older/widespread versions of windows don't support it" 20:03:17 <frosch123> and what would we gain by that? 20:03:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: it was in response to Rubidium's last comment here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=53881 20:03:44 <Rubidium> but... andythenorth: what about making OpenGFX DOS paletted? Then OpenTTD will default for those to the DOS palette and the NewGRFS will simply be broken all the time 20:03:51 <andythenorth> since then the user has posted exactly what I think the problem is ;P 20:03:53 <Rubidium> and you can 'force' them to add the action14 20:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> nml already forces a palette entry (afaik) 20:04:22 <Rubidium> them = newgrf devs 20:04:50 <andythenorth> so 20:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec can do that as well, with a legacy-parameter in case someone wants to support ancient TTDPatch versions 20:05:07 <andythenorth> the argument is really odd 20:05:16 <andythenorth> I don't even know if I can put it in words 20:05:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: imo it makes no sense to change newgrfs in scenarios 20:05:41 <andythenorth> "we don't allow palette changing in game because some newgrfs (in an attempt to enforce correct palette) might disable themselves, thereby breaking game" 20:05:42 <frosch123> there are only two consistent ways 20:05:49 <andythenorth> which is logical and correct, but just wrong 20:05:59 <frosch123> 1) do it like now. scenarios are savegames and depend on specific grfs and their versions 20:06:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: carry on :) but I'm not suggesting allowing to change newgrfs 20:06:28 <frosch123> 2) do it the albert & terkhen way: make scenarios not depend on any particular grf at all, and always use the newest version when starting a game 20:07:05 <Rubidium> the one where a scenario = heightmap + location/name of towns/industries? 20:07:12 <andythenorth> in an attempt to protect user from a broken game they are required to instead play a palette guessing game which almost guarantees a broken game 20:07:19 <andythenorth> so the result is: broken game :P 20:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> people want option 3) like they did before: use the scenario's grfs for industry/houses, but allow free choice of vehicle sets 20:07:22 <andythenorth> I don't get it 20:08:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: neverthelees, the palette argument is silly. either do it right and test activate grfs to check whether something changes and revert back before applying it to the game (you can also allow chaning parameters in that case), or just don't do it at all 20:09:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: that's grftopia :P 20:10:25 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:12:46 * Rubidium wonders... if not having the right palette for a particular NewGRF is such a big issue and enforcing to support only GRFv8 is the solution, wouldn't that break the NewGRF. So why not say that the NewGRF is broken as it doesn't specify the right palette? Instead of laying the blame on OpenTTD not allowing to manually fix said NewGRF each time you start a new game 20:14:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. *note* using a mouse on a cat is a bad idea 20:14:43 <supermop_> what problems are being caused by the current paletting situation? 20:15:24 <frosch123> we can display a big red text when adding the grf: "this grf does not properly specify colours, and may display sprites incorrectly. please contact the authors and ask for an update" 20:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: colours are very brown or very pink if the wrong one is used 20:16:13 <supermop_> hmmm 20:16:36 <supermop_> ok 20:16:54 <andythenorth> is it a straw man case anyway? Does anyone know of a grf that disables when palette is wrong? 20:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the main problem is that the "windows" palette is more widespread among popular older grfs (most actually get supplied in both palettes, but the windows one is more widely used), but the "DOS" palette is theee better and more logical one. 20:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: so if OpenGFX switches to the dos palette, all loaded grfs will default to dos as well, but a majority of those will be windows, and thus wrong 20:18:06 <andythenorth> but we established they can be converted programmatically? 20:18:07 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the main solution is that ottd trunk only uses the dos palette now, and assumes win palette for all grfs by default 20:18:22 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the palette *is* converted automatically 20:18:26 <frosch123> i.e. trunk does not behave like 1.0 or 1.1 which use the palette of the baseset as default 20:18:31 <Rubidium> but knowing which palette is used can't be done automatically 20:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: ah, interesting 20:19:13 <andythenorth> yup 20:19:13 <andythenorth> mechanical turk :P 20:19:13 <andythenorth> human converts them 20:19:15 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:34 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 20:19:47 <supermop_> managed to crash opera there 20:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the NewGRF settings window should display whether the palette was read from the GRF or "guessed" 20:22:26 <Rubidium> andythenorth: my assumption that there are NewGRFs that disable themselves is somewhat solidified by ActionB message-id 01 20:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and a user switching the palette will result in MD5/palette pair being stored in the cfg 20:23:49 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:25:06 <andythenorth> not ID 01? 20:25:20 <andythenorth> oops - my mistake 20:25:34 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> storing the grfid is useless, because most grfs come in a DOS and Windows variant 20:26:12 <andythenorth> those grfs are wrong :P 20:26:22 <andythenorth> and now our discussion is circular :) 20:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> those GRFs are right as long as they are developed with TTDPatch in mind 20:26:42 <peter1138> why is that wrong? 20:27:05 <alluke> ttdp is outdated junk 20:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd being able to convert palettes is not that old 20:36:09 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: goodbye] 20:36:50 <frosch123> night 20:36:54 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f735b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:27 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:41:13 <andythenorth> hmm 20:41:25 <andythenorth> I should update a FIRS cargo name: http://givemeonegoodraisin.blogspot.com/2009/04/word-of-day-recyclates.html 20:42:47 <alluke> recyclates? 20:42:59 <alluke> why not just call it rubbish or junk? :P 20:43:00 <Chris_Booth> sounds very american 20:43:13 <alluke> or shit or crap 20:43:20 <Chris_Booth> why not call it recyclables? 20:43:28 <Chris_Booth> or general waste 20:43:38 <Chris_Booth> or refuse? 20:44:27 <andythenorth> why not indeed 20:45:04 <Chris_Booth> I like refuse it is the most 'Proper' term IMO 20:47:33 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 20:47:43 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "recyclables" says something entirely different than "waste" 20:50:13 <andythenorth> indeed 20:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the first one i'd translate with "Wertstoffe" and the second with "Abfall" 20:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> which have diametrically opposite connotations 20:50:47 <andythenorth> it's a question of value 20:50:54 <Chris_Booth> yes Eddi|zuHause, but what would refuse translate to? 20:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: i have never heard that word (in this context) before 20:51:40 <andythenorth> it's very UK-english 20:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't teach this in school 20:52:06 <Chris_Booth> yes, it is what we use as a collective term of both waste/rubish and recyclables 20:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and it never occured on doctor who either 20:52:55 <andythenorth> http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=2262 20:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: i don't think there is such a word in german 20:53:12 <peter1138> refuse is pronounced differently to refuse too 20:53:14 <andythenorth> you'd never choose to use refuse given a choice 20:53:24 <andythenorth> you would possibly even refuse it :P 20:53:43 <Chris_Booth> yes I think you would refuse someones refuse 20:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: if i hadn't been part of this discussion, i'd expect "refuse" to be "biological waste" (i.e. a word with 4 letters starting with s and ending with t) :p 20:56:07 <Chris_Booth> well you wouldn't be that far out with that guess Eddi 20:56:39 <opa> isn't it something (material) that has been refused 20:56:44 <opa> +just 20:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: but there is nothing remotely relating to "recyclables" in that thought 20:57:32 <Chris_Booth> When the term is used in the UK it is used to descibe unsorted waste 20:57:39 <V453000> then you need to rename recycling plant to shitplant 20:57:41 <Chris_Booth> or mixed waste 20:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: but germans are quite obsessive with sorting their waste :p 20:58:09 <Wolf01> 'night 20:58:12 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:58:23 <V453000> :D you mean their waste like refuse or their PET bottles from paper? :D 20:58:28 <andythenorth> it has been an interesting day of ottd chat 20:58:29 <Chris_Booth> aaah we are not so here, you sort you metal, plastic and card. you green waste and then brown 20:58:40 <andythenorth> and I think I'll stop before it gets any worse :P 20:58:44 <Chris_Booth> but they are all picked up from the street on the same day 20:58:47 <Chris_Booth> in the same truck 20:58:54 <Twerkhoven[L]> no black recycle box for glass and electricals and textiles yet cb? 20:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: we even sort green glass from white glass and brown glass :p 20:59:25 <Chris_Booth> not yet TWerkhoven 20:59:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 20:59:40 <Chris_Booth> we have 2 bins 1 box and bags for card 21:00:05 <Chris_Booth> glass isn't pickup from my house 21:00:12 <Chris_Booth> have to take that back to the supermarket 21:00:21 <Chris_Booth> or local recycling centre 21:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> at least in the cities there are glass containers on every second street corner 21:01:22 <Chris_Booth> I wish that was the case 21:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not usually picked up from homes 21:01:31 <Chris_Booth> I have seen that in germany and in france 21:01:47 <Chris_Booth> but in the UK we have to take it somewhere 21:01:57 <planetmaker> "SpannungsabfÀlle kommen in die rote Tonne" 21:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> paper may be picked up from home, but that depends on region. mostly it's just another container next to the glass ones 21:03:04 <Chris_Booth> I liked what they had in austria, they had a glass bin in the supermarket and it gave you so many euros back for a given wieght of glass 21:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> then there's "recycleable waste" ("WertstoffmÃŒll", yellow) and "other waste" ("RestmÃŒll", grey) picked up from homes. in cities also "biological waste" ("BiomÃŒll", brown), in rural areas this is uncommon, as people usually have a compost in their garden 21:06:30 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:10:11 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:21 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 21:24:12 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:26:32 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:42 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 21:29:59 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 21:31:29 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:29 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:42 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 22:07:04 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:08:52 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 22:09:09 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db19187.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 22:16:32 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-124-226.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 22:18:20 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:07 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-12-100.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:25:56 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 22:47:04 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-027-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:56:50 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:25 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.76.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:54 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-27-86.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:48:05 *** blanham [blanham@99-133-145-177.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 23:50:06 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed]