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00:08:56 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 00:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> could enforce unloading before selling? 00:26:11 <Zuu> good idea 00:26:50 <Zuu> but an even better idea is to go to sleep. Good night ;-) 00:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> sleep is overrated 00:27:35 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:35:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:52:39 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8d091.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:03 *** Pikka [~Figgy@d58-111-88-82.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:09:45 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-170-31-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:14:56 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 01:25:58 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-170-31-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:26:47 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-168-99-64.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:38:52 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-168-99-64.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 483 seconds] 01:39:39 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-170-54-162.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 03:34:10 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:80b8:3a5c:fa0:9466] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:52:47 <Sevalecan> W \o/ 04:06:26 <Pikka> isn'tit 04:11:36 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 04:11:46 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [] 04:17:23 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:25:16 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72BA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:18 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75174.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:35:07 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 05:40:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@84.93.146.6] has joined #openttd 05:40:18 <andythenorth> Pikka: mornink 05:42:27 <Pikka> gday andy 05:43:01 * Pikka just spent 20 minutes searching for something that was tucked under my monitor 05:43:18 <andythenorth> it'll be in the last place you look 05:43:21 <andythenorth> law of physics 05:43:27 <andythenorth> or maybe semantics 05:43:47 <Pikka> or simply common sense 05:44:23 * Pikka afk 05:46:34 <andythenorth> common sense :o 05:46:48 <andythenorth> don't see much of that :P 06:06:32 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:13:07 <Pikka> there's got to be some somewhere 06:13:21 <Pikka> I'm very impressed by how smoothly rise of flight alt-tabs, incidentally 06:17:02 <peter1138> pardon? 06:22:48 <Pikka> peter1138, most complex 3d games don't alt-tab very smoothly, they take forever to do it and often don't work properly afterwards 06:23:01 <Pikka> rise of flight bounces up and down with no issues whatsoever. so far. :) 06:31:03 <planetmaker> moin 06:35:23 <Pikka> good morning planetmaker 06:37:28 <planetmaker> hello Pikka :-) 06:40:37 <andythenorth> Pikka: wrt yesterday's shenanigans... 06:40:45 <andythenorth> - my plan is to cost balance HEQS + FISH against both default vehicles + pikka world 06:40:50 <andythenorth> with a parameter to switch 06:41:05 <andythenorth> it's got a few issues, but should work 06:46:14 <planetmaker> That's what I do as well. So yes, it works. And hello andythenorth :-) 06:47:55 <andythenorth> so basically there are two cost schemes 06:47:59 <andythenorth> default + pikka world 06:48:10 <andythenorth> how does pikka world vary from default? 06:48:52 <andythenorth> how many axes are there? two? (buy cost + run cost) 06:49:08 <andythenorth> plus pikk* sets have variable run cost 06:49:19 <andythenorth> and vehicles get more expensive as they age 06:49:37 <V453000> never noticed that 06:49:42 <V453000> also hi :) 06:49:49 <planetmaker> hi V453000 06:49:54 <Pikka> I don't know how it varies from the default, I've never considered the default vehicles when balancing my sets :) 06:50:18 <andythenorth> but you know what characteristics your scheme has... 06:50:31 <V453000> hi pm :) 06:50:32 <andythenorth> basically I'm happy to support both 06:50:37 <Pikka> well, sure 06:50:57 <andythenorth> I'm happy to add code for variable running costs + aging as well, which switches on parameter 06:51:54 <Pikka> also, because of the variable running costs, the "official" running cost as it appears in the buy menu is really a guide only 06:52:10 <Pikka> actual running costs will depend on how the vehicle is used 06:52:31 <planetmaker> Pikka: from my tests with various vehicle sets (and I did that in order to allow OpenGFX+ Trains be adjust wrt a number of them) your sets are indifferent wrt purchase costs but a +2 wrt running costs (i.e. a /4 will balance it) 06:53:24 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:53:27 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 06:53:55 <andythenorth> can the default setting for a parameter be changed? 06:54:04 <andythenorth> wrt detecting another grf 06:54:17 <Pikka> I don't think so, andy 06:54:20 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/entry/src/header.pnml#L220 <-- my summary of how different sets are balanced 06:54:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, they can 06:54:44 <Pikka> oh 06:54:46 <Alberth> moin peoples 06:54:49 <andythenorth> hola 06:54:50 <planetmaker> that's what ogfx+trains does 06:54:53 <planetmaker> hello Alberth 06:55:02 <Pikka> well, maybe then. you can check if it's not defined and then define it as x? 06:55:13 <andythenorth> have any other authors got coherent cost schemes? 06:55:14 <planetmaker> If it detects a pikka newgrf it will set its own runcosts also to base +2 06:55:20 <planetmaker> yes 06:55:33 * andythenorth doesn't have a coherent scheme - costs don't excite me :P 06:55:45 <planetmaker> well. I just linked the code I use :-) 06:56:12 <Pikka> costs don't excite a lot of newgrf authors 06:56:48 *** Sacro1 [~Ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:57:55 <V453000> costs are just a matter of slowing the game down really, not changing anything too much I think 06:58:03 <planetmaker> possibly. Though I have the feeling at least half somewhat do care. But that might be selective perception 06:59:09 <V453000> well one thing is care and one is to hope it will change the gameplay to something interesting >] 06:59:10 <V453000> :) 06:59:16 <Alberth> planetmaker: probably just within a single set 07:00:11 <Pikka> indeed V453000 07:01:09 <Alberth> V453000: if you disable breakdown, there is little force to make a careful selection 07:01:16 <andythenorth> variable costs make quite a difference 07:01:19 <Pikka> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45637&start=519 07:01:19 <andythenorth> as does terrain 07:01:27 <Pikka> is basically the aim of my set balance 07:01:32 <andythenorth> with YACD + UKRS2 the variable costs make things very very hard 07:01:33 <Pikka> and is what you're breaking, planetmaker :P 07:02:05 <V453000> Alberth: breakdowns are unusable 07:02:27 <andythenorth> YACD encourages running PAX trains barely loaded which causes losses, whereas normally they'd wait for full load + make a profit 07:02:42 <planetmaker> Pikka: I do not want to break your sets - least of all. They're one of the best balanced sets around, no doubt 07:03:41 <V453000> andythenorth: higher costs and """""harder""""" game means only one thing: You have to find "the best" way how to play in terms of profit. The only effect it really has is cutting down the final creativity after you find "the best" way. 07:04:01 <planetmaker> But I wonder how I can make it possible to use different vehicle sets concurrently without dissallowing that and without disagreeing about average price levels more than 100% 07:04:11 <planetmaker> and I still don't have a good solution to that :-) 07:04:27 <andythenorth> V453000: maybe, but finding the 'best' way is the interesting 'problem' 07:04:33 <V453000> yes, certainly 07:04:34 <andythenorth> it's like a puzzle 07:04:50 <andythenorth> basically I like things to 'solve' 07:04:50 <V453000> but with the way how openttd works it is not that hard (in my opinion) 07:05:18 <V453000> yes, sure, but it makes it a game for a goal with the moment when you reach it, you get mildly bored 07:05:22 <andythenorth> yes 07:05:26 <andythenorth> but in the meantime... 07:05:27 <Alberth> yet you see newbies fail at the game :) 07:05:27 <V453000> just like if you "win" some game 07:05:33 <planetmaker> Pikka: and *because* I like your newgrfs I basically started yesterday's discussion with you ;-) 07:05:39 <Pikka> planetmaker; all I'm asking is that until you do have a good solution, don't implement a bad solution :) 07:05:44 <andythenorth> one reason I like new set releases because it gives something new to solve 07:05:46 <V453000> andythenorth: but I can see the point and I agree that it can be fun :) 07:06:07 <andythenorth> I'm holding back vehicles for HEQS so I can do a new release which will require different solutions 07:06:11 <planetmaker> the question is "what is bad"? ;-) 07:06:25 <andythenorth> and the economies in FIRS are also intended to cause new solutions to be needed 07:06:47 <andythenorth> V453000: maybe that idea could influence NUTS design :P 07:06:51 <Pikka> making it so that new players will probably be playing grfs with stats other than those intended is "bad" 07:07:06 <andythenorth> it's also boring 07:07:11 <andythenorth> which is a crime 07:07:48 <V453000> andythenorth: I do not think I will bother too much with costs in NUTS 07:08:33 <andythenorth> it's not just costs - capacity, speed, hp, vehicle life.... 07:08:39 <Pikka> V453000, "The only effect it really has is cutting down the final creativity after you find "the best" way." - well, perhaps. but the only way you're going to make it so that there is no optimum solution for a given situation is to give every vehicle in your set the exact same statistics 07:09:07 <andythenorth> V453000: my guess is that you prefer solving routing? 07:09:11 <Pikka> at least with my sets, I strive to make it so that the best solution isn't exactly the same (fastest most powerful vehicle available) for every situation :) 07:09:20 <andythenorth> we're all solving something, otherwise we wouldn't play 07:09:49 <V453000> Pikka: yes, UKRS achieves that _very_ well 07:10:05 <V453000> andythenorth: yes, certainly 07:10:12 <planetmaker> Pikka: but that still would hold true if running costs would be /4 ? 07:10:58 <andythenorth> it must surely? 07:11:08 <andythenorth> otherwise the difficulty setting wouldn't work 07:11:26 <V453000> well not really 07:11:35 <V453000> if you /4 it then all engines might be "fine" 07:11:39 <Pikka> no, not at all. if you quarter the running cost of a vehicle without changing any other stats or the economy as a whole, it becomes more effective 07:11:59 <planetmaker> yes, but all vehicles do so? 07:12:22 <V453000> but that is the whole point I am basically saying, the engines in UKRS for example are very well balanced by their speed, power, TE, so all are usable. Costs do not matter too much (if at all) 07:12:33 * Pikka thinks I may need some props to make this clearer, brb 07:12:46 <planetmaker> :-) 07:13:16 * andythenorth predicts we will discuss cargo payment rate next 07:13:24 <planetmaker> :-D 07:13:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I gave a suggestion for that already... yesterday 07:14:04 <Rubidium> it has a dependency though: yacd 07:14:11 <andythenorth> that would be interesting 07:14:19 <andythenorth> I was thinking only of current scheme 07:15:06 <Rubidium> although it might work pretty well without a cd 07:15:11 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-136-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:13 <andythenorth> what was the idea? 07:16:20 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-136-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:16:23 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-136-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:31 <Rubidium> a base fare for cargos, so when loaded you get at least X, a component for the distance with a small difference in w.r.t. speed and a 'surcharge' for 'significantly faster than average' transports within the same class of vehicles 07:16:50 <andythenorth> more realistic :P 07:17:00 <Rubidium> e.g. if you fill the map with maglevs you make less money than when you have loads of (slower) feeder routes 07:17:07 <andythenorth> 'class of vehicles'? 07:17:21 <Rubidium> train, ship, aircraft, rv 07:17:28 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-136-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:17:28 <andythenorth> but not subclasses? 07:17:37 * andythenorth pokes Eddi|zuHause ^ 07:17:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: please not ;) 07:17:46 <andythenorth> bah 07:17:50 <andythenorth> you know it makes sense 07:18:04 <andythenorth> pax should pay more for travelling in a more luxurious vehicle 07:18:20 <andythenorth> and food should be worth more if refrigerated 07:18:46 <Rubidium> why should I care, as customer, that I'm in the fastest noisy diesel engine or in the slowest electric engine (diesel engine still slower than electric)? 07:19:09 <Rubidium> I wouldn't pay extra money to be in a slower train, just because it's the fastest diesel train 07:19:09 <andythenorth> why do people pay 110% more for first class seats? 07:19:13 <andythenorth> it's still just a seat 07:19:42 <Rubidium> leg room etc 07:19:47 <Alberth> the boss pays :) 07:19:52 <Rubidium> less likely to sit with noisy students 07:20:06 <andythenorth> anyway, we can leave subclasses out for now - it's a newgrf thing :P 07:20:45 <andythenorth> Rubidium: how does your proposal vary from current payment? 07:20:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: although a surcharge component by NewGRFs wouldn't be that different 07:20:59 <planetmaker> hm, nice. Our yesterday's discussion gave me in the German forums a direct comparison with the chief of the MfS - the GDR's internal thought police 07:21:20 <andythenorth> sounds like a godwin-class event :P 07:21:26 <Rubidium> andythenorth: current one is very much speed derived, so fastest vehicle over longest distance == moneys 07:21:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: guess who wrote that article ;-) 07:21:56 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: I think you'll find the answer is: They don't. 07:22:08 <Rubidium> mine would make short routes more profitable due to the base fare 07:22:26 <Rubidium> and longer routes hopefully (much) less profitable 07:22:27 <andythenorth> and also long distance bulk transport would be flatter? 07:22:42 <Rubidium> yep 07:22:49 <Rubidium> depending on how it's all tweaked 07:22:49 <andythenorth> hmm 07:23:00 * andythenorth has distorted view 07:23:06 <andythenorth> I set cargo rates how I want them to be :) 07:23:31 <andythenorth> FIRS is pretty flat for bulk cargos 07:23:48 <Rubidium> the major point is that the speed component of gets mostly ripped out the paid prices 07:23:58 <andythenorth> Rubidium: it sounds like a good suggestion 07:24:11 <Rubidium> except for that surcharge for faster than average vehicles in its class 07:24:17 <andythenorth> would it be backwards compatible (i.e. we keep the current method as option)? 07:24:29 <Rubidium> that'd be the way to go I'd say 07:24:32 <andythenorth> hmm 07:24:33 <planetmaker> hm... ripping out speed? Hm... what's "Class" in that context, Rubidium? 07:24:38 * andythenorth dislikes 07:24:42 <planetmaker> "train", "rv", "plane"? 07:24:51 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes 07:24:57 <andythenorth> if there are two payment schemes, defining a cargo/industry set just got much harder 07:25:00 <andythenorth> double the testing :P 07:25:23 <planetmaker> why, andythenorth? 07:25:46 <Rubidium> this newgrf doesn't work with old cargo scheme: done ;) 07:25:47 <planetmaker> the important thing is that input = output. roughly 07:25:56 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-107.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:26:54 <andythenorth> I don't see how this doesn't increase testing 07:27:01 <andythenorth> testing is already a PITA :P 07:27:16 <planetmaker> :-) 07:27:25 <planetmaker> I most probably broke production anyway :-P 07:29:08 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just say that the NewGRF requires the new cargo scheme 07:29:36 <planetmaker> hm, yes, industry sets usually define cargos and their price properties... so yes, you're right, that'll need additional testing 07:30:21 <andythenorth> every now and then I have the idea that the 'original' ttd stuff should be implemented as a newgrf 07:30:32 <andythenorth> rather than spiralling out advanced settings 07:31:00 <andythenorth> then authors of other newgrf sets have to make a choice how to do stuff, instead of having to support n combinations of advanced settings 07:31:06 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you can't code the whole economy in a NewGRF 07:31:10 <Rubidium> that'd make it way too slow 07:31:21 <andythenorth> sure 07:31:32 <Pikka> http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/propnumbers.png 07:31:40 <andythenorth> but some of the stuff - especially industry stuff - is a headache 07:32:31 <andythenorth> Pikka: so if the cargo rates change....what happens to the numbers? 07:33:54 <Pikka> if you quarter all the cargo rates and all the base costs along with the train running costs? 07:34:10 <andythenorth> yes 07:34:41 <andythenorth> 1/4 probably results in losses all round 07:35:23 <Pikka> well if you quarter the cost and value of /everything/, then I guess it all works as before, just with a currency that's worth 4 times as much 07:35:45 <andythenorth> so ultimately we might as well put a factor in front of the currency :P 07:36:08 <Pikka> yes. which you can already do easily enough. it doesn't get us anywhere with the interaction of multiple grf sets. 07:36:31 <planetmaker> ok, I see that point of the shifted balances... 07:36:32 <andythenorth> if I was better at maths... 07:36:40 <andythenorth> there's a common factor somewhere in this 07:36:44 <planetmaker> thanks pikka, that's very illustrative 07:36:46 <andythenorth> it can all be factored out somehow 07:37:03 <andythenorth> I was thinking yesterday of establishing a 'standard' 07:37:14 <andythenorth> based on hauling 100t coal n tiles in a straight line, flat 07:37:22 <andythenorth> and measuring the *profit* not the cost 07:39:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: so using your model, it's trivial for me to break your set with my set 07:40:08 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 07:40:19 <Pikka> well, it's trivial for you to provide a vehicle that has better stats than the vehicles in my set and thus makes my set redundant for players looking to build the "best" loco, andy 07:40:26 <Pikka> but there's never going to be any way around that 07:40:49 <planetmaker> of course. That's always feasable. No matter what 07:40:59 <Pikka> except enforcing one person's idea of what a "correct" stat model is :) 07:41:50 <andythenorth> it's also trivial for FIRS to set cargo rates that break your sets 07:41:57 <andythenorth> that may even have happened already 07:42:10 <Pikka> possibly 07:42:19 <Pikka> if you set cargo rates dramatically different from the defaults 07:42:31 <andythenorth> that's likely :D 07:42:41 <andythenorth> hmph 07:42:49 <andythenorth> this is all simple maths, it should be easier to solve :P 07:43:13 * Pikka should try FIRS some time and report back 07:45:46 <planetmaker> hm... so basically the economy settings depend on the cargo rates (well, of course) 07:46:11 <planetmaker> which is basically a difficulty settings 07:46:16 <Terkhen> good morning 07:46:21 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen 07:46:54 <andythenorth> I can't see a clean solution while authors still get to have their own ideas about rates 07:47:03 <andythenorth> this is an issue of proper domain :P 07:47:17 <planetmaker> yes 07:47:29 <andythenorth> but there's no right answer to 'who gets control' 07:47:34 <Rubidium> you need a benevolent NewGRF standards dictator! ;) 07:47:39 <andythenorth> plus, due to backwards compatibility it will never get solved 07:47:44 * andythenorth proposes Rubidium 07:47:49 <andythenorth> hmm 07:48:15 * planetmaker has the feeling that our newgrf 'dictator' is a green amphibian :-P 07:48:29 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 07:48:33 <Alberth> While playing with FS#4696 yesterday, I found http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/rotated_airport_glitches.png is this solvable in a simple way? 07:48:46 <andythenorth> ''.join(string.split('benevolent)) 07:49:41 * Rubidium rejects andythenorth's proposal 07:50:14 <Alberth> newgrf specs need to be designed better instead 07:50:27 <planetmaker> simple... I'm not sure whether it's easy to fix, Alberth 07:50:43 <planetmaker> the issue is the plane extending over the bound of the hangar 07:51:00 <Alberth> yep, they cheated in the airports :) 07:51:19 <planetmaker> yes ;-) 07:51:25 <andythenorth> Alberth: propose a new design? 07:51:31 <Alberth> so my guess is that you need to change the actual coordinates of the hangar 07:51:37 <andythenorth> I don't know if spec change solves it :P 07:51:43 <Alberth> +plane in the 07:51:50 <Rubidium> Alberth: or just chop the sprite while drawing ;) 07:51:55 <planetmaker> well... ^ 07:51:58 <andythenorth> $someone must be good at maths 07:52:05 <planetmaker> sounds the more promising approach 07:52:14 <andythenorth> I think a reference profit would solve this 07:52:23 <planetmaker> if (plain in hangar) { chop plane to hangar tile; } 07:52:32 <andythenorth> i.e. transporting cargo n tiles produces profit x 07:53:34 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you can only chop in | or - direction, but that should solve most of the problems 07:53:37 <planetmaker> that might be an interesting one-step setting for economy, andythenorth 07:53:45 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes, sure 07:53:53 <Rubidium> alternatively change the moment when the aircraft becomes (un)visible 07:54:08 <Pikka> andy: but I think you should be able to make more profit in earlier years, or more profit in later years, or something 07:54:11 <planetmaker> there'll never be need to chop the plane on the backward tile base 07:54:29 <Pikka> also, for arguments' sake, I disagree with your decision about what the reference profit should be. :) 07:54:38 <andythenorth> propose an alternative :P 07:54:39 <Rubidium> in the normal case they drive too far so the plane is hidden by the hangar roof before hiding/parking it 07:54:49 <andythenorth> I see two ways to solve this 07:54:55 <andythenorth> 1) fix the spec 07:54:56 <Rubidium> however, when it's turned it doesn't need to drive that far to at least hide it 07:55:16 <andythenorth> 2) support 'default world' and 'pikka world' 07:55:27 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:55:41 <planetmaker> yes... but coordinates need to stay invariant under rotation of the airport... 07:55:42 <andythenorth> so either a technical standard, or a convention 07:55:47 <Alberth> Rubidium: that's what I was thinking, so have a custom position with each rotation -> no need for generic rotation mechanisms 07:56:18 <Pikka> andy: well, since it's an artistic and not a technical problem, I don't see how a technical standard is appropriate 07:56:46 <Pikka> as for conventions, my numbers are published and/or available on request and people are free to try and match them if they like. :) 07:57:00 <andythenorth> ++ convention requires no patches :P 07:57:05 <andythenorth> just a lot of griping at people 07:57:10 <andythenorth> griping / encouragement /s 07:57:14 <Rubidium> Alberth: but then the 180 degree rotated would be faster w.r.t. hangar operations 07:57:31 <Pikka> but you can't force people to accept your standard, andy :) 07:57:50 <andythenorth> can I fore them to accept yours? :P 07:58:02 <Pikka> it's unlikely 07:59:05 <andythenorth> can we read the base costs in their grfs and disable ours if we don't like them? :P 07:59:21 <Pikka> planetmaker, just saw your pm, thanks :) 07:59:21 <andythenorth> can a grf agree to delegate base cost setting to another grf? 07:59:29 <andythenorth> i.e. inheritance / interfaces 07:59:49 <Pikka> andy: I don't know about that, but mine disable themselves if a known incompatible grf is loaded 08:00:16 <planetmaker> :-) 08:00:24 <Pikka> (but allow the user to reactivate them on acknowledgement that the mix of grfs is unsupported) 08:00:53 <andythenorth> can a grf connect to my server to check a list of grfs I don't like? 08:01:02 <andythenorth> think that violates the GPL :P 08:01:50 <Alberth> andythenorth: just hate all of them :) 08:02:38 <Pikka> works for me ;) 08:03:38 * Pikka goes to see if I can shoot down that darn balloon this time 08:05:19 <andythenorth> hmm 08:05:50 <andythenorth> s'not really about grfs I don't like :P 08:06:05 <andythenorth> it's about it being hard to play nicely with grfs I *do* like 08:06:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: if you'd just hurry up and do an RV set, the issue would be solved :P 08:07:26 <planetmaker> where are the bandits to steal that set when they're needed? 08:07:37 <planetmaker> :-P 08:08:55 <Alberth> are there airports rotated 90 or 270 degrees? 08:09:24 <Rubidium> I think there might be a test newgrf for that 08:09:56 <planetmaker> Alberth: there's not (yet) afaik 08:10:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the bandits are sulking 08:10:33 <planetmaker> But... a medium-quick test could be made probably 08:10:38 <andythenorth> they are waiting for rv-wagons 08:10:47 <planetmaker> they stole them! 08:10:58 <andythenorth> is rv-wagons even a good idea? 08:11:06 <andythenorth> or does the gameplay of adding trailers just suck? 08:12:12 <Rubidium> Alberth: try http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/airports01.grf 08:13:17 <Alberth> thanks 08:14:11 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:14:25 <planetmaker> bah... articulated vehicles implementation sucks :S 08:14:34 <planetmaker> or rather their specs 08:15:07 <andythenorth> what sucks about it? 08:15:38 <planetmaker> the articulated vehicle's ID being < 128 08:15:47 <planetmaker> by specs 08:15:59 <planetmaker> which is... big bullshit on part of the specs 08:16:20 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:16:24 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:17:00 <andythenorth> I thought that was getting fixed? 08:17:14 <andythenorth> isn't it an issue with cb results? 08:17:27 <Rubidium> v8? 08:18:20 <planetmaker> yes... but changing the CB result means breaking existing newgrfs. As bit 7 of the return value is interpreted as "bit set ? reverse view : normal view" 08:18:38 <planetmaker> so... it needs the ominous v8... 08:20:42 <planetmaker> btw... just generally, do you know http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch , Pikka? 08:21:25 * Rubidium wonders how bad it would be to not allow v8 and < v8 NewGRFs to be loaded at the same time 08:21:52 <planetmaker> hm... 08:22:00 <Rubidium> then you might be able do some more drastic things w.r.t. balancing shit 08:22:20 <andythenorth> Rubidium: if v8 swept up some other crap, I would just make all my grfs v8 only 08:22:26 <andythenorth> screw backwards compatibility :P 08:22:29 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fccfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:22:34 <andythenorth> so FIRS might only work with ships 08:22:35 <andythenorth> hmm 08:22:40 <andythenorth> whenever he's mentioned, he arrives 08:22:42 <andythenorth> spooky 08:23:52 <andythenorth> v8 could refuse to load any grf that doesn't implement certain parts of action 14 for starters 08:24:05 <Rubidium> yep ;) 08:24:19 <Rubidium> v8 only supports the DOS palette ;) 08:24:29 <Rubidium> or is that taking it too far? ;) 08:24:35 <andythenorth> no 08:24:39 <andythenorth> that's a correct thing to do 08:24:44 <andythenorth> unless you are trolling me :P 08:24:46 <Alberth> if you break it, break it big :) 08:25:29 <Rubidium> then give it a release and drop pre v7 support mwhahahah ;) 08:25:32 <planetmaker> I'm not sure that making the grf versions mutually exclusive a requirement. But I'd allow the "extra" functionality only if only v8 is present 08:26:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: with v8, vehicle sets could be prevented from setting base cost 08:26:22 <andythenorth> and the range of base cost could be adjusted 08:26:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but things like balancing and changes to the economic model require all NewGRFs to cooperate. You better force that ;) 08:26:51 <andythenorth> FISH only adjust base cost because the range is too small to accomodate higher costs without adjusting multiplier 08:26:59 <Rubidium> it'd tie v8 together with rebalancing the game ;) 08:27:16 <Rubidium> hmm, maybe that's a better approach 08:27:26 <andythenorth> plus, we'd know what all the user suggestions were going to be for literally years 08:27:31 <andythenorth> we could write a bot to reply to them 08:27:47 <andythenorth> "wtf you broke my favourite grf" 08:27:54 <andythenorth> could be answered by 08:27:56 <Rubidium> Pikka & andythenorth: could you come up with a NewGRF that modifies the cargo payment, base costs and purchase costs so it gets more balanced? 08:28:22 <andythenorth> "your grf author was too lazy to update / hand over their project to someone else / didn't use a proper license so no-one else can update" 08:28:24 <Rubidium> (of the basic vehicles) 08:28:51 <andythenorth> Rubidium: could that be shipped by default with trunk? 08:29:18 <Rubidium> well, was more thinking about using those values as defaults 08:29:40 <andythenorth> can the range of base costs be extended? 08:29:51 <andythenorth> less fine grained, higher upper limits? 08:29:51 <Rubidium> then for NewGRF purposes the NewGRF can request the new default base costs, otherwise it gets the old base costs 08:31:09 <Rubidium> I guess that would be almost a prerequisite, wouldn't it? 08:31:17 <andythenorth> Rubidium: would this be before or after you change the payment model? :D 08:31:46 <Rubidium> good point 08:32:05 <Rubidium> don't know; no idea how much work the new payment model's going to be 08:32:17 <Rubidium> but... I guess it ought to use that 08:32:34 <andythenorth> does grf v8 need to consider patch? 08:32:41 <Rubidium> except for NewGRF cargos that didn't request the new default base costs 08:33:06 <Rubidium> andythenorth: do you expect anyone to implement it in ttdpatch? 08:33:10 <andythenorth> no 08:33:28 <Rubidium> same thought's coming from here ;) 08:33:29 <andythenorth> ottd could be the reference implementation of grf v8 08:33:41 <Rubidium> definitely 08:33:41 <andythenorth> thereby ending years of entertaining discussion :| 08:34:09 <andythenorth> MB would no longer be able to pop up and yell at you guys for doing it wrong 08:34:09 <Alberth> I have no doubt you'll find other entertaining topics :) 08:34:40 <andythenorth> and you would no longer be able to do things like *break my fricking grf due to being out of spec with TTDP" :\ 08:35:43 <Alberth> huge disadvantages.. :) 08:35:43 <andythenorth> hmm 08:36:02 <andythenorth> there was a whole load of crap with refittable cargos that needed fixing for v8 08:36:03 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-170-54-162.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:36:19 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 08:37:09 <andythenorth> we had a proposal for cargo to be able to determine refitting 08:37:24 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 08:37:25 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 08:37:33 <andythenorth> I also patched a 'can wagon attach' cb which was tested as ok but never shipped :P 08:37:42 <andythenorth> that's probably safe for v7 08:38:38 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-168-92-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:38:39 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 08:41:25 <andythenorth> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4437 08:43:06 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 08:52:30 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dc0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:01:03 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:17:40 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c4bb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:17:44 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-029-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:17:50 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host152-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:18:03 <Wolf01> 'morning 09:18:49 <Alberth> moin 09:24:48 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dc0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:36:08 <Pikka> bordig 09:37:03 *** lllugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cf71.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:38:22 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:42:07 * andythenorth wonders 09:42:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22706 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: A loop is no loop, if it never iterates. 09:42:16 <andythenorth> is "Middle Gulf" a stupid name for a ship? 09:42:21 <andythenorth> :P 09:42:45 <andythenorth> the USA doesn't name its sea areas interestingly 09:43:34 <frosch123> a Gulf/Golf is a car 09:44:23 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c4bb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:44:48 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cbf2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:45:30 <andythenorth> FISH mostly names ships for sea areas :P 09:48:06 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:51:53 *** lllugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cf71.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:56:46 <andythenorth> should ships be faster? 10:03:37 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 10:06:03 <Alberth> that'd more a NUTS ship 10:06:17 *** lllugo [~lugo@mgdb-4d0cfc47.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:06:25 <andythenorth> can we divert all silly suggestions to NUTS? 10:07:00 <andythenorth> no 10:07:03 <andythenorth> we need another set 10:07:07 <andythenorth> NUTS is *unrealistic* 10:07:14 <Alberth> duh :) 10:07:15 <andythenorth> we also need the RAGS set 10:07:27 <frosch123> yeah, don't say everything can be done with squirrel 10:07:40 <Rubidium> andythenorth: http://rbijker.net/openttd/payment.ods <- that's the basic algorithmic idea I've got, with some numbers to play with 10:09:51 <andythenorth> Realistic And Gameplay Sucks set :P 10:12:31 <andythenorth> oo 10:12:34 <andythenorth> numbers :) 10:13:07 <andythenorth> looks exciting in a text editor :P 10:13:33 <Alberth> try a hex editor, it may have nice NFO code :) 10:13:37 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cbf2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:14:06 <andythenorth> I should install open office? 10:14:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: pages should open it, too 10:14:46 <planetmaker> err, numbers. whatever 10:15:03 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it is the ISO/IEC 26300:2006 standard for office application files... so any sane office application ought to be able to read it 10:16:51 * andythenorth naturally has insane office applications 10:17:01 <Rubidium> MS Office? 10:17:13 <andythenorth> yup 10:17:21 <andythenorth> I have excel from 2004 and refuse upgrades :P 10:17:23 <Rubidium> then you must not be using the Windows version ;) 10:17:42 <Rubidium> as only with Windows version you have a chance of it being supported 10:18:02 <frosch123> yay, awesome bugs... 10:18:17 <andythenorth> I have apple numbers but it sucks 10:23:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: numbers is not good, but sufficient to display that 10:23:15 <dihedral> hello 10:24:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: mine refuses :P 10:24:10 <andythenorth> I'm installing ooffice 10:24:23 <planetmaker> too old numbers, eh? 10:24:33 <andythenorth> I'm not upgrading numbers if I can avoid it :P 10:24:52 <andythenorth> I am no big fan of upgrades 10:25:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I'm not 100% sure I understand your table, though 10:25:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's no reason to upgrade it... 10:25:42 <planetmaker> it was just part of the package which contains keynotes. 10:25:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then I've done a good job ;) 10:25:56 <planetmaker> And that is IMHO indeed more convenient than Powerpoint 10:26:32 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but what don't you get? 10:26:50 <planetmaker> the 5 columns starting with base fare, distance fare,... 10:26:50 <andythenorth> oh 10:26:54 <andythenorth> ooffice got better 10:27:07 <andythenorth> mine was from 2007 10:27:09 <andythenorth> it sucked 10:27:53 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8df92.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:27:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: new version; the gray fields are the ones that you can play with. 10:28:13 <Rubidium> the top ones are to 'model' different distances/speeds to check against 10:28:39 <Rubidium> the ones on the left are the 5 variables for the new payment algorithm 10:28:51 <Rubidium> base fare is just that: you get that amount regardless to the distance 10:29:01 <Rubidium> distance fare is what you get regardless of the speed 10:29:16 <andythenorth> so it's equivalent to: 10:29:19 <andythenorth> - lading fee 10:29:22 <andythenorth> - cost per ton mile 10:29:27 <andythenorth> - speed supplement 10:29:35 <planetmaker> ok, they're fixed numbers then for a given route 10:29:41 <Rubidium> surcharge start and fare are related. if speed > average free * surcharge start: then add the surcharge fare to the distance fare 10:29:43 <planetmaker> what about the surcharges? 10:30:14 <Rubidium> and the speed fare is a multiplication factor (1+speed_fare * speed) * distance_fare (incl. surcharge) 10:30:22 <andythenorth> do you measure actual speed? or d/t 10:30:49 <Rubidium> d/t from pickup to dropoff 10:33:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium: what's the speed fare? ⬠= speed * speed_fare ? 10:34:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: 2:30 < Rubidium> and the speed fare is a multiplication factor (1+speed_fare * speed) * distance_fare (incl. surcharge) 10:34:14 <Rubidium> booh... missed the 1 10:34:15 <planetmaker> :-) 10:35:13 *** lllugo [~lugo@mgdb-4d0cfc47.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:35:29 <planetmaker> so actually ⬠= ((1+speed_fare) * speed) * (distance_fare + speed_surcharge_fare*(speed>speed_surchage)) 10:36:15 <Rubidium> (1+(speed_fare * speed)) * ... 10:36:21 <planetmaker> ah 10:36:26 <Rubidium> but yes, that's roughly it 10:36:32 <planetmaker> thx 10:36:48 <Rubidium> though the speed_surchage = average_speed * surchage_start 10:36:52 <andythenorth> maybe we should chart the numbers 10:37:13 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8df92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:38:38 <Rubidium> maybe the average speed for the surcharge should be per cargo type per vehicle class, so slow coal trains doesn't mean that the pax trains are all very fast (relatively at least) 10:39:38 <planetmaker> that's a very vague number, Rubidium. Esp. given that newgrfs can do all kind of fancy callback magic 10:40:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: have you read the massive bit of text in the spreadsheet? 10:40:21 <Rubidium> average speed = running average of distance / duration of previously delivered cargos 10:40:41 <planetmaker> yes. And forgot again ;-). So only actual vehicles on the map count 10:40:57 <frosch123> sounds like a free market 10:41:11 <frosch123> if the compitioners transport faster than you, you are payd less 10:41:12 <andythenorth> the average speed is a really tricksy idea 10:41:16 <andythenorth> could be genius 10:41:17 <andythenorth> could suck 10:41:17 <Rubidium> yes, and I'd argue on a per company basis as well ;) 10:41:19 <planetmaker> sorry, Rubidium. But yes, that makes perfect sense 10:41:43 <planetmaker> why per-company? 10:41:46 <frosch123> Rubidium: per company? sounds like a cheat 10:42:04 <frosch123> build only slow cheap stuff and make the same money? 10:42:12 <planetmaker> it means I can make as much money with my steam engine in 2000 than my competitor with the TGV 10:42:15 <andythenorth> should be world-average? 10:42:25 <andythenorth> or map-region average :P 10:42:30 <andythenorth> when belugas finishes regions 10:42:40 <Rubidium> so that if a competitor builds a maglev he doesn't get everything with surcharge whereas you 300 km/h ICE trains get no surcharge anymore 10:43:23 <planetmaker> one maglev won't kill the average 10:43:28 <frosch123> that doesn't make sense, does it? 10:43:49 <planetmaker> but if he successfully converted everything... then, yes 10:44:03 <planetmaker> which'd be fine 10:44:04 <frosch123> if noone builds maglev, it is fine for ice to stay the best 10:44:22 <frosch123> but it should not make a difference whether you or someone else builds the first maglev 10:44:47 <Rubidium> it's not about being the first 10:45:01 <andythenorth> does the competitor provide service within n tiles? 10:45:18 <planetmaker> oh, that makes things too complicated, andythenorth 10:45:22 <andythenorth> if not, you have a local monopoly, so his service is irrelevant :D 10:45:32 <frosch123> i guess you could only take the linkgraph of cargode/ist and add a component for the average speed of a connection 10:46:04 <andythenorth> this would be interesting 10:46:12 <Rubidium> it's about you having a nice passenger network with slow and fast trains. Then the next moron comes along and drops some maglev lines, your network becomes significantly less profitable and the network of the other is extremely profitable (compared to single player) 10:46:38 <andythenorth> just do spot price economy :P 10:46:45 <andythenorth> I nearly worked it out last time it was discussed 10:47:04 <andythenorth> spot price + surcharge on some links 10:47:16 <Rubidium> just like 'we' Dutchies have to pay a surcharge for a 140km/h train, whereas that's more or less the standard in Japan 10:47:32 <andythenorth> my solution depended on town control iirc 10:47:54 <frosch123> sounds like a reason to not do town control :p 10:48:07 <andythenorth> there are many reasons not to do town control 10:48:09 <Rubidium> but when I take the DB to Berlin there's no surcharge, even when it goes way above 140km/h on some stretches 10:48:20 <Rubidium> I would pay extra for the ICE which is even faster 10:48:22 <andythenorth> Rubidium: 'regions' :P 10:48:35 <andythenorth> payment rates are political 10:48:36 <Rubidium> but that shouldn't mean that the Dutch train should be stripped from it's surcharge 10:48:42 <frosch123> Rubidium: yeah, you might be right. the inter-company thing is already done with the station rating 10:48:59 <frosch123> so you will just get less cargo, if there is competition 10:49:06 <andythenorth> but station rating measures vehicle speed and age 10:49:12 <andythenorth> so maglev still rinses everything else 10:49:17 * andythenorth ponders 10:49:18 <frosch123> doing it also with the prices, is overdoing it 10:49:26 <andythenorth> if maglev is so awesome, why don't we have them in RL? 10:49:39 <Rubidium> except that the maglev station would get busy, so the ratings drop... so it evens out a bit over time 10:49:44 <frosch123> [12:49] <andythenorth> but station rating measures vehicle speed and age <- but it does it only locally at the affected stations 10:50:11 <andythenorth> poking at the game is much more interesting than playing the game :) 10:52:09 <Rubidium> in any case, have fun experimenting with some number in the sheet. Got to go now ;) 10:54:42 *** Sc00by22 [~IceChat77@5e0aa3a3.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 10:56:53 <Sc00by22> Is there any branch/tag in the SVN for 1.1.1 that I can compile and also play online, I've tried 1.1 branch and 1.1.1 tag and I've got version mismatch for them both. 10:57:14 <frosch123> the tag shoudl work 10:57:28 <Sc00by22> I tried it, in the title it shows 1.1.1M 10:57:41 <frosch123> then you have local modifications 10:57:47 <frosch123> what does 'svn status' say? 10:58:55 <Sc00by22> TortoiseSVN equiv? 10:59:06 <frosch123> no idea 10:59:23 <Sc00by22> If it helps all I did was a fresh checkout and compile 11:00:19 <andythenorth> anyone want new FISH? 11:00:45 <andythenorth> it's got a few bugs, but I might ship it 11:01:06 <frosch123> is new fish like fresh fish, or more like caviar? 11:01:39 <andythenorth> more like a slightly wider selection of fish 11:01:50 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:01:51 <frosch123> :p 11:02:56 <Pikka> fish fish fish fish 11:03:02 <Pikka> ghoti 11:04:53 <planetmaker> sushi? 11:05:32 <Pikka> some unusual ships, hovercraft included 11:05:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: fun idea: Give your major FISH release nicknames: 11:06:12 <andythenorth> this one has a catamaran 11:06:16 <andythenorth> and some other stuff 11:06:19 <andythenorth> invent a name :P 11:06:37 <planetmaker> FISH 1.0.0 "skate" 11:06:47 <andythenorth> it also has some white pixels included at no extra charge 11:06:50 <andythenorth> I can't find the damn things 11:07:00 <planetmaker> doesn't it tell you? 11:07:03 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:07:03 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 11:07:05 <planetmaker> is it maybe a pixel in the wake? 11:07:11 <andythenorth> probably 11:07:19 <andythenorth> but photoshop should be able to find it 11:07:25 <planetmaker> colour select plain white and you'll find it 11:08:10 <andythenorth> that's what I figured 11:08:21 * andythenorth -> lunch 11:08:26 <andythenorth> it's in sungei_catamaran.png if you want to look 11:08:28 * Pikka gives the Yak-40 "Yakety Sax" as a takeoff sound 11:13:46 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-110-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 11:15:09 <Sc00by22> Got it to work frosch, I had to change the version from 1.1.1M to 1.1.1 11:15:13 <planetmaker> :-) Where do you get your sounds from, Pikka? 11:16:00 <Pikka> here and there. :o not really yakety sax though. :P 11:17:25 <frosch123> Sc00by22: the "M" means modified. so, if you disabled the autodetection and faked the version number, you just disabled the compatibility-checking. 11:17:54 <frosch123> if you encounter desyncs, something critical was modified 11:18:00 *** fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD269E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:18:29 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cbb2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:18:43 <Sc00by22> I'll see how I go, I'm not using it as a client in the future, just a custom server 11:22:26 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 11:22:34 <planetmaker> lol. That's even worse 11:23:00 <planetmaker> Because then the people who connect have the problem - and will report it as bug to us while you run a buggy server 11:23:20 <Sc00by22> Do you expect everybody to be shoddy coders? 11:23:22 <planetmaker> or patched if you want it 11:23:34 <fjunike> hi there. Ive got an "if (!function(para..." AND want to get the Value the the function returns. Easyest way to do this? (NoAI script, Squirrel) 11:23:52 <planetmaker> Sc00by22: no, of course not. But that's why running a patched server AND faking its revision is a very bad thing 11:24:17 <planetmaker> As people will assume that OpenTTD is buggy - and not assume that the server owner hacked the server alone 11:24:20 <Sc00by22> Luukland run a patched server, and nobody has had issues 11:24:29 <planetmaker> you bet 11:24:45 <Sc00by22> I play there a lot and never experienced a single problem 11:24:55 <Hirundo> fjunike: value = function(parameters); <newline> if (!value) .. 11:25:35 <planetmaker> lucky you 11:25:58 <frosch123> Sc00by22: the question is not whether there is a problem, but what would happen if there is a problem 11:26:01 <fjunike> hirundo: thank a lot :) 11:26:52 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-168-92-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:53 <Sc00by22> I don't expect any problems 11:27:05 <Sc00by22> Most things are server-side anyway 11:27:24 <planetmaker> uhm, "most"? 11:27:34 <planetmaker> If you run a custom version - just call it that way. 11:27:48 <Sc00by22> Ok, everything then 11:28:07 <planetmaker> still, how does "server-side" imply "no problems"? 11:28:20 <Sc00by22> No problems for the client 11:28:28 <Sc00by22> Maybe for me, but that is my problem, which I will avoid 11:28:34 <planetmaker> you err on that account dramatically 11:30:09 <planetmaker> The client simulates the very same game. If only one thing in the game progression differs, the client is kicked 11:30:26 <Sc00by22> It's not going to be THAT modified 11:31:28 <Sc00by22> but, I'll just see how it goes 11:32:03 *** ar3k [~ident@ecb107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 11:36:45 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:18 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecr21.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:40:27 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 11:41:18 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 11:42:41 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:46:48 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:20 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:59:07 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:edc9:f658:6dcb:3dce] has joined #openttd 11:59:10 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:02:07 *** Sacro_ [~ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:05:19 <Zuu> fjunike: local val = function(parameters); 12:05:42 <Zuu> Oh Hirundo has already responded. 12:06:12 <fjunike> he did :) 12:06:47 <fjunike> zuu: im working on your streettrafic AI 12:07:17 <Zuu> sTHe streettraffic AI is not mine but a fork of my TownCars AI. 12:07:25 <Zuu> the* 12:08:31 <fjunike> ok. your name is listet in GetAuthor so i think it was yours 12:08:57 <Zuu> So unless you are the one who made the streettraffic fork, you will have to fork it again unless you can contact the streettraffic author and get him/her to include your changes in it. 12:10:49 <Zuu> If you provide a patch to TownCars, I might include it there as to not get way too many town car AIs. That said, the current TownCars code could benefit from scraping some code in favor for using code in SuperLib. 12:12:03 <fjunike> i just try to let the ai park some cars 12:12:04 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 12:16:56 <Zuu> Parking (stoping) the cars randomly is probably not too hard. The harder part is to make sure you don't block any streets by parknig cars on both sides of the street. 12:17:13 <Zuu> The later is not impossible to do, but will require some more work and understanding. 12:17:36 <fjunike> right 12:17:58 <fjunike> i try to count the vehicles on tile 12:18:10 <fjunike> an on the tiles around 12:18:57 <fjunike> max 1 vehicle on 3x3 12:19:53 <Zuu> that should work as long as the vehicles aren't articulated with several wagons. 12:20:24 <Zuu> Something you can probably assume that they aren't. 12:20:55 <Zuu> You can see in the engine selection if articulated engines (cars) are filtered out. 12:21:58 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 12:22:23 <fjunike> thanks for thi hint first time i try only with generic town cars so there are no articulated vehicles because the AI is only allowd to build vahicles with 0 price and 0 kosts 12:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the tables at http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Running_cost_base_.280E.29_and_factor_.280D.29 don't seem to be very accurate, where is the real calculation? 12:34:19 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db199d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:34:49 *** krinn [~krinn@197.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 12:34:53 <krinn> hi 12:34:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the difficulty plays a role somewhere iirc 12:35:06 <krinn> is there an option to disable terraforming for ai or i'll be safe ? 12:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can't change the difficulty level ingame... 12:36:18 <planetmaker> krinn, there's not. I'm not sure whether the general terraform limits applicable to players also is valid for them 12:36:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, play with custom. Then you can change things 12:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no 12:36:42 <krinn> the high/low build near corner maps limits ? 12:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: most of the settings are disabled after game start 12:36:58 <planetmaker> krinn, no, rather the how many tiles per N frames 12:37:19 <planetmaker> search your config file for *burst* 12:37:20 <krinn> it's hardcode in game? 12:37:30 <krinn> ok 12:37:32 <planetmaker> it's a setting, for both clear and terraform 12:37:45 <planetmaker> both as burst and withing 64k ticks or so 12:38:02 <krinn> terraform_frame_burst = 4096 12:38:11 <krinn> this allow 4096 tiles / frame ? 12:38:31 <krinn> to be terraform 12:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but actually i wanted the code piece that does the calculation. 12:39:16 <planetmaker> krinn, yes. But no idea whether it's applicable to AIs. 12:39:50 <krinn> planetmaker, would you say Sleep(1) per tile change is enought to stay safe? 12:39:54 <planetmaker> it's basically meant to stop map-wide terraform by grievers... 12:39:58 <fjunike> eddizuhause: gibts anscheinend doch ein paar deutsche ottd coder :) 12:40:21 <planetmaker> fjunike, yes, they exist. But this channel is English only ;-) 12:40:25 <andythenorth> FISH is shipped 12:40:28 <andythenorth> 4 new boats 12:40:40 <andythenorth> couple of them adjust gameplay quite a bit 12:40:56 <fjunike> i know planetmaker ;) 12:42:30 <andythenorth> V453000: congratulations 12:42:45 <andythenorth> the NUTS set has already been criticised on grounds of reality 12:42:47 <andythenorth> :) 12:43:28 <andythenorth> "you can't includes this vehicle because it's unrealistic" :P 12:43:42 <planetmaker> :-D 12:45:32 <fjunike> is there an AIGroup.GetNum to count ALL vehicles in a group? 12:47:21 <krinn> i do as AIVehicle_ListGroup() 12:47:34 <krinn> then blah.Count() 12:47:55 <fjunike> ok thanx 12:48:22 <krinn> look at the real function name might be AIVehicleGroupList() :) 12:50:16 <fjunike> there is an AIVehicleList_Group(id) 12:50:37 <krinn> yeah that one so, just use .Count() and you'll get # vehicle in it 12:52:02 <andythenorth> what counts as unrealistic in an unrealistic set? 12:52:22 <andythenorth> the set must have some form of reality, or it couldn't be manifest 12:52:45 <andythenorth> anyway, ti seems forums are short on irony :P 12:52:50 <andythenorth> ti / it /s 12:53:04 <krinn> the real problem with "reality guys", is that it's not reality as in life even, it's their reality :p 12:53:36 <andythenorth> and here we have a central problem in western philosophy :) 12:53:49 <andythenorth> what is the world? 12:53:53 <andythenorth> how do we know? 12:53:57 <andythenorth> and what should we do about it? 12:54:05 <andythenorth> is basically all philosophy summed up 12:54:13 <krinn> it's easy if your french: in doubt, just complain 12:54:26 <andythenorth> I prefer french philosophy 12:54:29 <andythenorth> it's wittier 12:55:29 <andythenorth> new FISH has already had 1/1000th of it's maximum downloads 12:56:42 * andythenorth should go do something else 12:56:44 <andythenorth> :P 12:56:47 <andythenorth> bye 12:56:47 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you still look for it: engine.cpp 12:57:15 *** andythenorth [~Andy@84.93.146.6] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 12:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Engine::GetCost()? 12:57:41 *** Rezt [~Rezt@cpc17-brig16-2-0-cust136.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:58:00 <planetmaker> yes. Which then points to economy.cpp GetPrice 12:59:06 <frosch123> hmm, thouse tables in the wiki should use £ 12:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> right, that's what i found 13:04:22 <planetmaker> from vehicles GetCost it gets a shift of -8 which makes a base_cost_exponent of 8 the neutral one 13:05:31 <planetmaker> thus cost = base_cost_value * cost * 2**(base_cost - 8) the resulting cost 13:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/economy_replace_shift.diff 13:11:48 <frosch123> better add that 2 resp 3 to 'shift' 13:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> why? 13:13:39 <frosch123> less rounding 13:13:50 <frosch123> divide only once 13:15:16 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:15:42 <krinn> shifting instead of / per 4 or 8 would be faster for the cpu 13:16:41 <krinn> div cycles are always higher in all cpu than shifting 13:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: that is true, but every modern compiler will optimize that for you 13:17:02 <krinn> but i suppose the compiler would catch that and change it 13:17:14 <krinn> just say it too ^^ 13:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so this change is purely for readability 13:17:40 <krinn> better add a comment, dunno with what compiler one is going to build it 13:18:01 <krinn> also many user can alter compiler choice gcc with -O0 = you won't get that effect i'm sure 13:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like this? it kinda defeats the point... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/economy_replace_shift_2.diff 13:18:20 <planetmaker> krinn, the amount of self-compilers is probably negligible in the overall context 13:18:47 <Alberth> krinn: if you use -O0, you are not interested in speed of the program 13:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: err, i think the + must be a - 13:19:22 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 13:19:35 <krinn> nope Alberth, i'm interrest maybe in stability, less optimization less chance to a faulty optimize 13:20:08 <krinn> and that was gcc option, maybe some other compiler doesn't have the option at all 13:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: you are not going to play a game in such an environment... 13:20:52 <Alberth> krinn: then code directly in machine language, surely that's the most stable environment :p 13:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: by default, only debug builds will use the -O0 parameter 13:20:55 <krinn> some people use emulators... this kind of / won't help them 13:21:07 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:21:14 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 13:21:14 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/multiplierrounding.diff <- Eddi|zuHause: i meant like taht 13:21:16 <krinn> don't get it wrong, i won't build it -O0 :) 13:21:44 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and not even that, default still optimizes variables away 13:21:46 <krinn> just that i think a "// div 4" would be better than "/4" 13:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i still think this is wrong... 13:23:03 <krinn> pov, but you're the coder here, so your choice prevail 13:23:29 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 13:24:01 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 13:25:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you mean newgrf authors will complain when the costs of their vehicles change slightly? :p 13:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, i mean it does defeat the point of making the formula more readable 13:27:00 <frosch123> making a formula nice and minimizing computational errors it not the same :) 13:27:54 <frosch123> you can only argue, that computational error does not matter if there is inflation 13:28:28 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 13:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how about this? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/economy_replace_shift_3.diff 13:31:27 <frosch123> also an interesting option 13:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> introduces a multiplication for the medium case... 13:45:41 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 14:13:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22707 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify applying the difficulty settings to prices, and reduce computational errors. (Eddi) 14:14:52 <planetmaker> apropops wiki, Pikka: your newgrf wiki link in your signature is outdated ;-) 14:15:18 <Pikka> true, true 14:15:58 *** douknoukem [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has joined #openttd 14:18:03 * planetmaker wonders whether Pikka never sleeps, though ;-) 14:19:02 <Pikka> at times! 14:19:19 <planetmaker> :-) 14:19:36 <planetmaker> I'd have bet on something like past 2 am? 14:19:45 <planetmaker> But... probably I'm wrong 14:19:47 <Pikka> it's only 12 14:19:57 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 14:20:00 <Pikka> and I'm still on holiday until wednesday, so it's allowed! 14:20:11 <planetmaker> ha! Good for you :-) 14:20:24 <Pikka> (and I'll be on twilights this week anyway, don't start work until 11 or 12) 14:20:32 <Pikka> (so no need to get up early :)) 14:20:51 <planetmaker> also good - as it seems to not be the early twilight ;-) 14:21:52 <Pikka> :) it is a strange name for a shift, granted 14:22:35 <planetmaker> well, I find it not that bad - but if it starts at noon... then it's odd ;-) 14:22:56 <Pikka> at my workplace "earlies" start between 4 and 7, "twilights" between 10 and 12, and "lates" between 2 and 4 14:23:10 <Pikka> and I do twilights and earlies in alternate weeks 14:23:29 <planetmaker> ah. But 4am is rather early... *shudder* 14:24:00 <Pikka> yep.. good fun, especially in winter :) 14:24:43 <Pikka> there's also broken shifts which typically work 7-12 then 3-8, but I don't do those any more :) 14:25:07 <Pikka> at least with the 4am starts you're done working by 1 or 2. :) 14:26:31 <Pikka> broken shifts pay more, you get paid half-rate for the break in the middle. but it's a longggg day. I'd rather earn more by working weekends. 14:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of work is this, anyway? 14:30:27 <Alberth> staying awake at weird hours :) 14:33:26 <planetmaker> :-) 14:33:41 <Pikka> that too 14:33:46 <Pikka> but also bus driving 14:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... that must be an annoyingly boring job... 14:35:12 <Pikka> well, it's not as bad driving for BT as it is for the private operators. Most private operators have one driver doing one route, all day every day 14:35:53 <Pikka> I get to do different stuff every day. if you like people, driving, and watching people do stupid things in traffic, it's not so bad. 14:37:06 <Pikka> also, for those with an interest in how transport systems work, it's a nice inside perspective. :P 14:37:51 <Pikka> but yes, I'll definitely be looking to get some expanded duties and a bit more variety in my work once I finish my traineeship. 14:43:46 <planetmaker> hm, where's andy when one needs him? 14:43:57 <Pikka> lunch 14:44:31 <planetmaker> at 15:44h? ;-) 14:45:15 <Pikka> why not? 14:46:15 <planetmaker> food after 15h is in my category tea time or dinner ;-) 14:48:16 <planetmaker> but probably his baby keeps demanding more and he still didn't finish himself ;-) 14:50:17 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 14:52:29 <fjunike> is there an integer division Squirrel 14:59:06 <frosch123> does (1 / 2).tointeger() work? 15:04:24 <fjunike> looks good :) 15:04:27 <fjunike> thx 15:06:05 <Zuu> Dividing one integer with another integer gives an integer in Squirrel as in most languages. 15:06:24 <Zuu> The only exception I know is Delphi, where a division always cause a float. 15:06:49 <fjunike> var / 100 * var2 isnt not everytime a int ;) 15:06:50 <frosch123> delphi has a separate operator :) 15:07:15 <fjunike> is not *gg 15:07:24 <Zuu> (var / 100) => int value, that is then multiplied with var2. 15:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda like the "separate" operator idea... i really wonder why it hasn't propagated to more languages than just pascal... 15:08:12 <Zuu> (if both var and var2 are ints) 15:08:13 <Alberth> Zuu: python 3 too 15:08:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it makes no sense with operator overloading 15:08:53 <frosch123> it only makes sense for natural numbers 15:09:05 <Zuu> Alberth: Thanks, good to know. 15:09:13 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: pascal was earlier than delphi :) 15:09:18 <frosch123> though you can say the same for modulo 15:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: delphi is an "advanced" pascal 15:10:04 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, so "propagated to" did not happen 15:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i should have said "pascal-derivates" 15:10:12 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:10:36 <frosch123> hmm, does uml know operators? 15:10:56 <Alberth> java doesn't, I think 15:11:20 <frosch123> (uml uses pascal syntax) 15:12:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:12:23 <Alberth> oh, I only know about uml in java context 15:12:31 <krinn> later all 15:12:39 *** krinn [~krinn@197.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: gone work] 15:12:50 <Alberth> ie the eclipse EMF 15:13:17 <Alberth> no, that's not right, uml is not part of EMF 15:13:22 * andythenorth ponders 15:13:38 <frosch123> i guess if you attach uml to a specific language, it will refrain from using a syntax of another language 15:13:46 <planetmaker> oh, hi andythenorth 15:13:58 <frosch123> but language-independent uml uses pascal syntax 15:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen a real-world application of UML 15:14:20 <Alberth> eclipse is supposed to be language-agnostic, but practically, it does mainly java 15:14:40 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you can draw nice class diagrams in it 15:14:56 *** XeryusTC is now known as test 15:14:59 *** test is now known as XeryusTC 15:15:00 <andythenorth> I have seen a system for creating cms modules using uml only, no html or python 15:15:04 <andythenorth> nobody uses it :P 15:15:16 <andythenorth> http://plone.org/products/archgenxml 15:15:16 <Alberth> and with EMF, generate class code from it 15:15:48 <andythenorth> I had an idea 15:15:52 <andythenorth> it may be brilliant 15:15:54 <andythenorth> or not 15:16:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, people try to use it for everything, no matter whether it is useful for that purpose 15:16:19 <andythenorth> is there a limit to the size of the buy menu text box? 15:16:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, the screen size 15:16:45 <andythenorth> awesome 15:16:55 <andythenorth> I might implement 'readme' vehicles in HEQS and FISH 15:16:56 <frosch123> well, and the number of characters 15:17:02 <Alberth> not if your display is 320x240 :) 15:17:03 <andythenorth> and a 'readme' industry in FIRS 15:17:05 <frosch123> same 512 bytes as everywhere else 15:17:20 <frosch123> or whatever number 15:17:55 <frosch123> and there is a 64kB limit for pseudo sprites :p 15:17:59 <Alberth> weird length, I'd expect 254 or so :) 15:18:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, ... different industries use different cluster count, eh? 15:18:55 <andythenorth> yes 15:19:01 <andythenorth> nothing simple about FIRS :P 15:19:07 <frosch123> hmm, DRAW_STRING_BUFFER is 2048 though 15:19:36 <Alberth> but we draw also other stuff than just newgrf strings 15:19:56 <Alberth> eg console output 15:21:17 <andythenorth> 'readme' vehicles would solve quite a bit 15:21:26 <planetmaker> oh, please don't :-) 15:22:02 <planetmaker> better kick LordAro's ass to finish the readme viewer 15:22:29 <andythenorth> "the solution is newgrf!" 15:22:33 <frosch123> we need a special stringcode to hyperlink from any grftext into the readme :p 15:22:51 <andythenorth> what readme :P 15:23:32 <andythenorth> also - I thought to be able to preview the buy menu when using newgrf panel 15:23:38 <andythenorth> I can't be the first to think that 15:23:53 <fjunike> #( i alway get 0 by my math oberation var / 100 * var2 (0 = 72 / 100 * 5) so the vars a filld with numbers 15:24:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: that is listed on the grftopia page 15:25:00 <andythenorth> I must have read it there already then 15:27:24 <Sacro_> I'm not impressed wiht the bbc 15:27:33 <Sacro_> and if they get rid of the f1 then I won't buy a licence next year 15:27:42 <andythenorth> ask for your money back 15:27:43 <Sacro_> I can watch f1 and top gear delayed 15:30:52 *** Sacro__ [~ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:32:10 <fjunike> very nice! a / 100 * b dont work, a * b / 100 works #( 15:33:53 *** Pikka [~Figgy@d58-111-88-82.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> fjunike: well, obviously 72/100 is 0 in integer-math 15:36:19 <fjunike> i dont like scriptlang where a can't say my var is a int or a string or ... :( 15:37:42 *** Sacro_ [~ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:39:02 *** Sacro__ [~ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:41:39 *** douknoukem [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:46:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> soo... now we only need a list of realistic prices for all engines... 15:47:22 <frosch123> realistic? 15:47:26 <frosch123> really? 15:49:10 <frosch123> maybe just assign price categories to them: cheap, medium, expensiv 15:49:32 <frosch123> and the do the rest with formulas from the stats, year and the category 15:58:08 *** fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD269E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 16:08:46 *** Sacro1 [~Ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:19:11 *** douknoukem [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has joined #openttd 16:21:49 <Zuu> Oo, AdmiralAI has built a museum tramway :-p 16:22:04 <Zuu> It goes around a block and has one station. 16:22:30 <Alberth> I have seen such routes before with an AI :) 16:22:56 <Alberth> except it tried to get & drop from the same station iirc :) 16:36:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:38:08 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 16:41:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 16:45:23 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Want to playtest/tune something for me? :p 16:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> depends ;) 16:45:49 <michi_cc> http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/infra_maint.patch 16:46:10 <michi_cc> Needs proper base costs and cost factors 16:47:10 <michi_cc> And maybe some kind of power law for the costs instead of linear, but I don't want to bankrupt everybody :) 16:47:39 <Zuu> looks interesting 16:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a large patch 16:49:13 <Zuu> myself, I've managed to sequently reproduce a strange crash in QUeue.FibonacciHeap2. I fear it could be my computer that has a memory issue. At least I'm going to try with another computer or maby also with last nightly and not only 1.1.2-RC2. 16:53:57 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/openttd.git/shortlog/refs/heads/maint 16:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how fast do you want results? 16:56:55 <michi_cc> Whatever suits you. I'm not out of work after that patch :) 16:57:32 *** mib_olxgm2 [4f199d6c@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:58:40 <planetmaker> michi_cc: I'd make the cost multiplier an enum instead of magic numbers 16:58:41 *** mib_olxgm2 [4f199d6c@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you think this in error. (2011-07-31 16:58:41)] 16:58:55 <planetmaker> + return (_price[PR_INFRASTRUCTURE_ROAD] * (roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM ? 8 : 6)) >> 3; 16:59:51 <planetmaker> same as for rail, I think 17:00:13 <michi_cc> Nothing in the default railtype defs has an enum though. 17:01:11 <planetmaker> well... no reason for further magic numbers ;-) 17:01:50 <planetmaker> I mainly meant roadtypes, though 17:02:26 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5C8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:04:37 <michi_cc> Let's find playable values first... I never play with the default vehicles, which makes balancing the costs to them hard 17:05:41 <planetmaker> :-) 17:11:23 *** minecraftfan [~minecraft@74.63.212.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:15:29 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 17:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> something is wrong, X/KDE doesn't react on mouse clicks anymore... 17:25:37 <Alberth> your remote X server disconnected? :p 17:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it worked again after i closed a few programs 17:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it reacted on keyboard, and the mouse cursor moved, just no mouse events were captured 17:33:41 <planetmaker> did your cat unplug it? 17:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no cat, no cables :p 17:34:12 <planetmaker> no batteries? 17:34:32 <andythenorth> sun spots 17:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then the mouse cursor wouldn't move 17:34:44 <andythenorth> what's going in the next version of FISH? 17:34:46 <andythenorth> oh 17:34:55 <andythenorth> I have to decide that :P 17:35:16 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:36:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth, whale hunter, rainbow warrior, Aida. ;-) 17:36:24 <planetmaker> but they all make for better disaster vehicles... 17:36:34 <andythenorth> whaling grounds? 17:36:42 <planetmaker> yeah. New FIRS industry 17:36:43 <andythenorth> nuclear test site industry? 17:36:47 <planetmaker> also 17:36:57 <andythenorth> hmm 17:37:27 <planetmaker> waste dump at sea might be interesting, too 17:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Mururoa! 17:37:39 <planetmaker> accepts chemicals and waste 17:37:43 <andythenorth> recyclables -> ocean 17:38:04 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch 17:38:10 <planetmaker> :-) 17:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Too Much Realism" (TMR) :p 17:39:06 <planetmaker> that's a good industry and cargo 17:39:21 <planetmaker> Realism generator. Cargo "realism". And "realism dump site" 17:39:27 <Alberth> (19:38:24) andythenorth: nuclear test site industry? <-- NUclear Test Site 17:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that name is taken, i fear :p 17:40:13 *** DOUK [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has joined #openttd 17:40:40 <andythenorth> he hasn't shipped yet 17:40:44 <andythenorth> I could gazump him 17:41:04 <andythenorth> can anyone replicate this? 17:41:05 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2321 17:41:07 <andythenorth> and/or fix it? 17:41:16 <andythenorth> might not be my error 17:41:23 <andythenorth> might be ottd missing a bit of code 17:41:28 <Alberth> lol 17:41:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you can check that afaik 17:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i never play with breakdowns 17:42:10 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: boring 17:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, breakdowns are boring 17:42:24 <planetmaker> breakdowns are boring ;-) 17:42:40 <planetmaker> smoking horses... nicotine addiction at its best :-D 17:43:00 <planetmaker> "sorry, we need a smoking pause" ;-) 17:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "Sag mal, raucht dein Pferd?" - "Nein." - "Na dann brennt dein Stall." 17:44:35 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-136-95-222.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:44:51 <LordAro> evenings 17:47:04 *** douknoukem [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:47:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you want to check possibly variable CB for 'broken' or B4 for 'current_speed' 17:47:54 <planetmaker> hello LordAro 17:48:06 <LordAro> hi planetmaker 17:48:07 <andythenorth> I check B4 iirc 17:48:35 <planetmaker> it's some magic necessary with that variable 17:48:49 <planetmaker> I don't understand the NML implementation, but it's not a plain return of it 17:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect it's an openttd bug 17:49:19 <planetmaker> @base 16 10 23C3 17:49:19 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 9155 17:49:25 <planetmaker> hm, whatever 17:51:23 <andythenorth> someone reported a problem with FIRS using var 7E 17:51:37 <planetmaker> yes, H1rundo did 17:51:48 * andythenorth digs up a ticket 17:51:54 <andythenorth> oh 17:52:04 <andythenorth> so advanced layouts don't work in nfo 17:52:09 <andythenorth> but 7E doesn't work in nml :P 17:52:20 <andythenorth> ho ho 17:52:37 <andythenorth> that piece of code using 7E was one of the reasons we're migrating to nml :D 17:52:38 <LordAro> Alberth: lines 255-259 here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/394/ <-- result in this lovely little lot: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/393/ 17:52:52 <andythenorth> how interestink 17:53:06 <planetmaker> :-D 17:53:11 <planetmaker> what does that piece of code do? 17:55:48 <LordAro> planetmaker: me? should remove tabs and CR's 17:55:57 <planetmaker> sorry, I meant andy ;-) 17:56:23 <Alberth> nice error :p 17:56:26 <LordAro> :oops: 17:56:28 <LordAro> :) 17:56:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it makes use of advanced layouts 17:57:07 <planetmaker> anything more specific? 17:57:09 <andythenorth> to provide climate dependent ground tiles iirc 17:57:18 <andythenorth> I got it from frosch more or less 17:57:32 <planetmaker> layouts with parameter do work... 17:57:57 <andythenorth> so nml can provide this without 7E? 17:58:12 <planetmaker> Honestly, I don't really know 17:58:26 <andythenorth> this could be done without 7E, but only in an ugly way 17:58:53 <planetmaker> dunno :-) 17:59:33 <andythenorth> meantime it can be replaced 17:59:38 <Alberth> LordAro: I see you do "*readme_text++ = *src;" what do you think happens with the readme_text pointer there? 18:00:31 <Alberth> note it is a short hand notation for "*readme_text = *src; readme_text++;" 18:00:54 <LordAro> something bad, i suspect :) i don't really know what's going on with that bit of code (i got cut off yesterday before i had a chance to ask) 18:02:05 <Alberth> the pointer gets incremented, which means you are loosing the starting point of the text 18:02:23 *** Sc00by22 [~IceChat77@5e0aa3a3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm] 18:03:06 <Alberth> as well as with free(this->readme_text) where you return a pointer different from the one you received from malloc (which I suspect is the cuase of your error) 18:03:10 <andythenorth> it's not required to use that 7E code at the moment 18:03:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: submit a bug for NML 18:03:54 <planetmaker> it's known, Alberth ;-) 18:04:01 <planetmaker> The hint came from Hirundo himself 18:04:47 <andythenorth> should probably just use whatever was in 0.6.5 18:05:32 <Alberth> LordAro: can you give me the documentation patch? I'll finish it a bit, and commit it 18:05:42 <Alberth> tomorrow, most likely 18:06:04 <LordAro> cool :) i'll just go and grab it 18:06:52 <Alberth> LordAro: in short, don't change readme_text, make a new pointer, and use that instead char *dest = this->readme_text; .... *dest++ = *src 18:09:03 <LordAro> ah, ok :) i got rid of char *dest because i thought it wasn't needed :) 18:10:17 <LordAro> you know, it was inefficent because all you were doing was copying it from then to readme_text 18:10:24 <LordAro> patch: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/395/ 18:11:45 <Alberth> no worries, you still have to split on \n, that will cause some more changes :p 18:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i have a fundamental problem with your patch. i cannot play without destinations anymore... :p 18:13:17 <Alberth> thanks for the patch 18:13:33 <LordAro> yes :) still not sure about how to do that 18:13:57 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that is normal 18:16:00 <Alberth> LordAro: Basically, instead of one long string that you dump into DrawMultiBlahBlahString(), you need to make a list of lines, and DrawString() each line separately 18:16:33 <Alberth> I am not sure whether wrapping of lines is needed, I'd say try it without first, and see whether that works good enough 18:17:20 <LordAro> but how would i split the 'big char' into 'little char'(s)? i obviously can't do readme_text1, readme_text2... :) 18:18:09 <Alberth> the first line is of course at readme_txt, the second line starts at the first character after \n of the first line, etc. 18:18:59 <Alberth> The usual approach is to use a SmallVector to create as many line-start's as you need. 18:20:07 <Alberth> as a first step, do char *lines[100]; that gives you lines[0], lines[1], lines[2], ... lines[99], which is almost the same as readme_text1, readme_text2..., readme_text100 :) 18:20:48 <Alberth> and if you think 100 is not enough, add a few zeroes :) 18:22:38 <Alberth> also make a 'int num_lines;'. That integer keeps track of the first unused line[] 18:24:21 <Alberth> this is too much perhaps. 18:24:34 <Alberth> first make sure the program runs again :) 18:25:01 <andythenorth> hmm 18:25:04 <andythenorth> how do other people test? 18:25:14 <Alberth> then do another for-loop, and print something each time you are at the first character after a \n 18:25:25 <LordAro> SmallVector? 18:25:36 <andythenorth> depending on what language / framework I'm using, I compile for pretty much every LOC I add, or a complete statement / function if LOC won't work alone 18:25:41 <andythenorth> is that overkill :o 18:26:11 <Alberth> I can code for weeks without compile :p 18:26:18 <andythenorth> omg 18:26:39 <Alberth> LordAro: forget SmallVector for now, too complicated at this time 18:26:40 <andythenorth> I guess if you have good debug tools it's fine 18:26:58 <andythenorth> I cut my teeth in coding environments without debug tools 18:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the time where your entire code is consisting of development documentation, not actual code :p 18:27:25 <Alberth> usually, I have to write a *lot* of relatively simple code before I can run anything 18:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i prefer taking existing code, and adding a few lines 18:28:04 <Alberth> my Python code is more docs than code :) 18:28:19 <andythenorth> that's fine 18:28:24 <andythenorth> define interface doc strings first 18:28:34 <andythenorth> then have them return 'hello' or something :P 18:28:38 <andythenorth> then write actual code 18:28:59 <andythenorth> I wrote a lot of flash games 18:29:07 <andythenorth> changing too much at once is bad for multiple reasons 18:29:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: but if possible, I take a simple example problem, and write from start to end, trying to run the program after each step 18:30:09 <andythenorth> I write pages and pages of html without thinking 18:30:19 <Alberth> there is a BIG difference between writing new code from scratch and changing existing code. The latter is often more difficult 18:30:30 <andythenorth> but every time I have to do js, I have to go literally adding one operator at a time 18:30:34 <andythenorth> to see what I broke :P 18:30:43 <Alberth> the <..> tags of html drive me crazy :p 18:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what firs rev is the last "running properly" version? 18:31:05 <andythenorth> rev? 18:31:06 <andythenorth> dunno 18:31:09 <andythenorth> let me check 18:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's some stray head in your repo 18:31:23 <andythenorth> yay 18:31:39 <LordAro> [19:20:06] <@Alberth> as a first step, do char *lines[100]; that gives you lines[0], lines[1], lines[2], ... lines[99], which is almost the same as readme_text1, readme_text2..., readme_text100 :) <-- do you not mean char **lines[100]... ? or have i got completely the wrong idea about what that is :) 18:31:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: likely 2102 unless I screwed up 18:32:01 <planetmaker> LordAro, there's a SmallVector type within OpenTTD 18:32:06 <planetmaker> Make use of that 18:32:22 <Alberth> planetmaker: I just told him not to :) 18:32:28 <Alberth> but feel free to explain :) 18:32:34 <planetmaker> oh. I thought you did :-) 18:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my local revision numbers are probably not aligned with yours 18:33:37 <Alberth> LordAro: int i is a in integer. int x[100] are 100 integers. char *readme_text is a character pointer. char *lines[100] are 100 such pointers 18:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have the hash of that commit? 18:33:52 <andythenorth> here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions?page=2 18:33:59 <andythenorth> feel free to try others around that point 18:34:07 <Alberth> LordAro: char **lines[100] are 100 pointers to pointers to characters :) 18:34:39 <LordAro> :O :) do you ever realisticly need to use that? 18:35:22 <Alberth> LordAro: 'int i' is a integer, int *p is a pointer to integer, int **q is a pointer to a pointer to integer (is a pointer to a 'p' thus) 18:35:36 <Alberth> LordAro: oh yes, some times you need it. 18:36:19 <LordAro> (i almost don't want to know the answer) e.g.? :) 18:38:20 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 18:38:49 <Alberth> if you want to return a pointer value through a parameter. (which probably means nothing to you now, but I don't know a better example :( ) 18:39:24 <Alberth> int i = 100; int *p = &i; *p = 200; do you understand what this code does? 18:40:32 <planetmaker> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/graph/2233?revcount=960 <-- hehe. Interesting graph 18:40:57 <planetmaker> Time and again a merge was needed when I committed translations - while andy committed concurrently some other stuff 18:41:20 <LordAro> Alberth: makes 'i' = 200 ? 18:41:40 <frosch123> IndustrySpec **&industryspec = (*file)->industryspec; <- **& is quite common in ottd 18:41:43 <Alberth> LordAro: indeed. 18:42:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker "pull before commit" :P 18:42:17 <andythenorth> but which of us was at fault :P 18:42:30 <Alberth> now what I just did with integers, you can also do with pointers 18:43:08 <LordAro> sounds fun :) 18:43:28 <Alberth> int i = 100; j = 100; int *p = &i; int **q = &p; *q = &j; 18:44:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth, time progression shows that your commits were later ;-) 18:44:21 <andythenorth> ha 18:44:31 <andythenorth> I am not good at vcs discipline 18:44:44 <andythenorth> I am good at drawing sprites (opinions may vary) 18:45:07 <Alberth> here p is what i was in the previous example, and *q is what *p was in the previous example 18:45:16 <Alberth> (sorry about the confusing names :p ) 18:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: not sure if that is still current, but in german town names 0.1.0 i just got a name "GroÃBraunburg", something isn't right there 18:46:15 <Alberth> LordAro: and of course, you can also do the same with int ***, int ****, etc :p (but I never did that) 18:46:31 * LordAro hides :) 18:47:21 <Alberth> I always make drawings when doing pointers, otherwise I get lost :) 18:47:29 <planetmaker> The missing space? 18:47:38 <planetmaker> I *think* I fixed something like that 18:47:48 <planetmaker> But... who knows, if I don't know? 18:47:54 <Alberth> hg 18:48:16 <planetmaker> maybe :-) 18:48:37 <Alberth> the issie tracker perhaps 18:48:40 <planetmaker> "Fix: Some automatic town prefix were missing spaces. Real town names had too many spaces" sounds like 18:48:41 <Alberth> *issue 18:48:54 <Alberth> hg log -k space :) 18:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and in Pikka's TaI houses the houses change direction if you build a tram stop... 18:49:16 <planetmaker> :-D 18:52:50 <LordAro> g2g thanks again for your help Alberth :) 18:53:09 <Alberth> ok, good luck with the lines epxerimenting 18:53:13 <Alberth> bye 18:53:34 <LordAro> will do :) lots of compiling, error, fix error, compile again will occur :) 18:53:37 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-136-95-222.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:57:59 *** Sacro1 [~Ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:01:10 *** Rezt [~Rezt@cpc17-brig16-2-0-cust136.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:21 *** Rezt [~Rezt@cpc17-brig16-2-0-cust136.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:01:56 <andythenorth> is it possible that industry fund cursor could highlight for valid places to place industry? 19:02:11 <andythenorth> possibly by running a pre-flight check on the cb28 and cb22 for each layout? 19:02:27 <planetmaker> that'd run A LOT of checks 19:02:49 <andythenorth> I guess if cb28 uses an expensive var like 65(?) it would be very bad 19:02:49 <planetmaker> n*m*l with n*m = map size and l = number layouts 19:03:11 <andythenorth> it would only highlight for the current tile the cursor is on 19:03:14 <planetmaker> which is... 12 million callbacks for a large map and 3 layouts 19:03:48 <andythenorth> it wouldn't need to show every valid location, just whether current tile is a valid n tile for any of the layouts 19:04:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: you could check it when moving the cursor over the screen 19:04:26 <frosch123> highlighing all positions makes no sense 19:04:27 <planetmaker> That's possible 19:04:48 <frosch123> but you would have to specify what to do for multiple layouts 19:04:58 <frosch123> show the first one, show the union of all, ... 19:05:15 <frosch123> well, and you need to extent the highlighting code for irregular highlights :p 19:05:34 <planetmaker> :-D 19:05:40 <planetmaker> damn, yes 19:05:42 <andythenorth> show the first valid layout 19:05:58 <andythenorth> and don't show the actual tile layouts, just whether it's a valid n tile 19:06:13 <andythenorth> bridges do something similar now 19:06:14 <andythenorth> ? 19:06:29 <planetmaker> showing the final layout after building is much more useful 19:06:39 <planetmaker> especially given the building issue with e.g. FIRS harbours 19:07:06 <andythenorth> true 19:07:16 <andythenorth> it's nice-to-have, not essential 19:09:14 *** Rezt [~Rezt@cpc17-brig16-2-0-cust136.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 19:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> take the maximum X/Y extent over all layouts, and then mark an area of that size 19:17:49 <planetmaker> that might be much easier, yes 19:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the "85% accurate" solution 19:20:20 <frosch123> yeah, sounds reasonable 19:20:25 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether the layout is then already decided or not, so yes 19:20:29 <frosch123> you can then still mark it red or white 19:20:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: the layout is only decided when you click :p 19:20:54 <frosch123> the server does that 19:21:10 <planetmaker> then it's even a 100% accurate decision ;-) 19:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure on what data you want to decide red or white... 19:24:16 <planetmaker> white: ok. Red not ok ;-) 19:24:23 <frosch123> whether the industry can be placed (assuming that the industry decided that using only determniistic stuff) 19:24:27 <frosch123> i.e. no random bits 19:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Vilsbach%20Transport,%2030.%20Jul%201922.png <-- the railtypes in the maintenance window should probably be sorted the same way as in the construction dropdown. and i'd make extra categories for bridges, stations, etc. 19:26:27 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and some indication on what the actual maintenance cost per month/year are 19:27:50 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: You need to enable the advanced setting, the you'll see the cost as well :p 19:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ah 19:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ok 19:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the railtypes seem to have 0 maintenance cost... 19:28:55 <michi_cc> And yes, the sorting could be better, I was just too lazy to do it for now 19:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> is that cost per month? 19:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't say anywhere ;) 19:30:11 <andythenorth> hmm 19:30:12 <michi_cc> Hmm, NewGRF defined railtypes should get the cost of the plain rail 19:30:14 * andythenorth ponders 19:30:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you requested a forklift for HEQS 19:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes 19:30:41 <michi_cc> Yes, it is per month. Suggestions for a better GUI layout welcome. 19:30:47 <andythenorth> I considered refittable capacities for it 19:30:54 <andythenorth> I think that probably sucks though 19:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, just 1 of anything... 19:31:16 <andythenorth> not pax :P 19:31:21 <planetmaker> 1 l of oil 19:31:32 <planetmaker> not pax? :-( 19:31:50 *** Sacro1 [~Ben@cpc2-mfld9-0-0-cust880.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: 1 oil is 1000l 19:31:57 <planetmaker> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4Q4vWy_ck 19:32:36 <andythenorth> a 1t forklift is weeny 19:32:36 <andythenorth> :P 19:32:37 <planetmaker> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME&feature=related <-- in English 19:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the game unfortunately doesn't model smaller amounts :p 19:33:13 <andythenorth> I could fake it 19:33:23 <andythenorth> just transpose the cargo suffixes :P 19:33:37 <andythenorth> 1 quarter-ton :P 19:33:42 <andythenorth> all the physics would be broken 19:33:48 <andythenorth> and every vehicle set would be odd 19:33:54 <andythenorth> but if it helps...I'll do it :P 19:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it was really just meant for driving back and forth to keep the station rating up... 19:34:20 <andythenorth> I recal 19:34:21 <andythenorth> l 19:34:36 <andythenorth> I'm supporting bad behaviour with this vehicle :P 19:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's really because nobody has a clue how to use callback 145 :p 19:37:26 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:37:47 <andythenorth> hmm 19:37:51 <andythenorth> forklifts go quite fast 19:37:58 <andythenorth> like 20km/h or so 19:42:40 *** krinn [~krinn@27.69.87.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 19:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like an appropriate speed to me 19:44:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have 7 out of 8 angles for a forklift from ISR 19:44:25 <andythenorth> and the other is not hard 19:44:33 <andythenorth> so I'll add it ;) 19:44:44 <andythenorth> the sprites are more like a 12t forklift than 1t 19:44:46 <andythenorth> but meh 19:45:14 <andythenorth> I also have some angles of a smaller forklift, but it's only about 8px long 19:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "distance between source and destination, in (dx+dy)/2" <-- who came up with that metric? 19:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. maximum value on a 256^2 map 19:53:52 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:06:06 <planetmaker> d = (x**2 + y**2)**0.5 = 0.5*(2*0)/(0**2+y**2)*x 20:06:21 <planetmaker> ehm... wrong channel 20:10:22 <krinn> it was for the channel "#write0buthideitincomplexformula ? 20:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> we spent weeks with that kind of thing :p 20:12:09 <planetmaker> it was for the channel pm@idl> 20:12:11 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:12:18 <planetmaker> "channel" 20:14:51 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:20 <frosch123> night 20:38:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fccfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:02 *** glx_ [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:edc9:f658:6dcb:3dce] has joined #openttd 20:39:02 *** glx is now known as Guest4314 20:39:03 *** glx_ is now known as glx 20:40:55 * Zuu thinks the NoAI api could mention the fact that DTRS will not remember the front tile you give it. Instead internally DTRS exist in only two directions. So when you ask to get the front tile of a DTRS, it may or may not be the tile you told that the front tile should be when you built it. 20:41:47 <Zuu> So each time you need to look on both "front" and "back" tile and try to figure out which one is the real front tile. 20:45:38 *** NOUK [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has joined #openttd 20:45:55 * Zuu sees a new SuperLib function being created in his head 20:46:19 *** Guest4314 [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:edc9:f658:6dcb:3dce] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:46:28 * krinn wonder what is DTRS 20:46:39 <Zuu> DriveTroughRoadStop 20:47:19 * krinn hates DTRS, roads jammer 20:47:30 <Zuu> Depends where and how you build them. 20:47:44 <Zuu> But they do need more care than just droping them in the middle of a town. 20:48:18 <Zuu> On the upside, they allow usage of articulated vehicles and trams. 20:49:08 <Zuu> Trams, thoguh are very easy to sabotage. 20:49:09 *** DOUK [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:49:14 <__ln__> http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-now-has-more-money-than-the-federal-government-2011-7 20:49:38 <krinn> __ln__ apple too 20:50:08 <krinn> Zuu, it's the concept, having a vehcile wait on a road can only do jam 20:50:25 <krinn> except at end of road, and i hardly believe one check that before building it 20:50:43 <Zuu> Sure one can do. 20:50:49 <krinn> do they? 20:50:57 <Zuu> And one can enforce that it will stay that way as well. 20:51:12 <Zuu> AITile.IsRoadTile or similar. 20:51:25 <Zuu> Is a very basic version. 20:51:49 <Zuu> There is also the API call that checks if two tiles are interconnected with each other. 20:52:32 <Zuu> a function that interesting enough, did not exist when NoAI started. So back then you had to trust that tiles in towns were interconnected and build your own roads between towns to be sure that they were connected. :-D 20:52:41 <krinn> yep, but if none take care to check the road is a dead end before using the DTRS.... jam 20:53:26 <Zuu> As from what I've seen AIAI solves it quite good. 20:53:33 <krinn> the problem is that only 1 vehicle is need to jam a town 20:54:00 <Zuu> You again assume that you drop the DTRS on _existing_ road and don't build a bypass loop. 20:54:03 <krinn> i solve it quiet good: i don't also DTRS in town in my config :) 20:54:36 <Zuu> thats how I usually config my games too. :-) 20:54:39 <krinn> /s/also/allow 20:55:06 <planetmaker> not allowing dtrs on town roads imho defies 50% of their usefulness ;-) 20:55:12 * planetmaker has it always on 20:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the AIs need to be taught to provide non-blocking DTRS... 20:55:48 <krinn> not allowing them reduce jam by (any value, choose a big one) % 20:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, overtaking needs to be allowed 20:56:38 <krinn> i allow them outside town, because all ai i test show they can handle it with a queue and loop and some orders halfload... 20:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, AIs just spam more vehicles 20:57:02 <krinn> but in town, nope, no loop.... only i keep that vehicle loading and if i can't load everyone must wait behind me 20:58:15 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yep, this doesn't help too, but they are smart generally, if spam get out, resell them, some are smarter enought to ask the sell when seeing the jam 20:58:35 <krinn> but as long as the DTRS remain, the problem will come back asap 20:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> DTRS are generally a bad idea in combination with full load 20:59:18 <krinn> lol DTRS are nearly a "don't battle me for my ressource or you'll get stuck with me" 21:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but allowing overtake should make many things easier 21:00:33 <andythenorth> bye 21:00:34 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:00:35 <krinn> overtake ? 21:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> overtake is when you switch lanes to pass a slower vehicle. 21:01:48 <krinn> that's great, but doesn't work most of the time 21:02:05 <krinn> or you speak about a new thing ? 21:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the existing overtake mechanism has some severe limitations, that aren't actually needed most of the time... 21:03:36 <krinn> lol we should have an auto klaxxzon: stuck behind a vehicle for X time -> klaxxon, after 3 rings -> force vehicle in front to move his ass :) 21:03:46 <krinn> with that, i might allow DTRS in towns :) 21:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a klaxxon?!? 21:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and we have quantum effects 21:04:10 <krinn> car ring 21:04:26 <krinn> ringing in car when someone doesn't drive as he should 21:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that means 21:05:02 <krinn> ah 21:05:11 <krinn> and i was thinking it might be german origin 21:05:25 <krinn> but spell might be klaxon 21:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what does the origin have to do with anything? 21:06:05 <krinn> it's the "hupe" 21:06:43 <krinn> i was thinking it was german origin, and so that we were sharing the name 21:07:06 <krinn> or word if you prefer than name 21:07:45 <krinn> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Minimax_pneumatische-Hupe_Makrofon-spezial.jpg&filetimestamp=20100727080323 21:08:35 <krinn> might be buzzer in english, but i'm not sure 21:09:07 <michi_cc> It's a horn if you talk about a car. 21:11:30 <peter1138> yeah 21:11:33 <peter1138> and they're honked 21:13:05 <krinn> ah, i knew buzzer was more for a door 21:13:12 <krinn> none use klaxon ? 21:13:15 <krinn> the word ? 21:13:18 <SpComb> siren 21:13:40 <krinn> yep for police... we use sirÚne 21:14:00 <peter1138> klaxons have a specific sound 21:14:16 <SpComb> etymelogy 21:14:45 <krinn> might comes from a tm, or a company name 21:14:56 <peter1138> yes 21:15:00 <peter1138> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_horn#Klaxon 21:15:51 <krinn> oh good catch peter1138 21:16:10 <SpComb> how coincidental, I was just reading the same 21:19:41 <krinn> seem i for one time find something Eddi|zuHause didn't know 21:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like i know _everything_ 21:21:25 <planetmaker> g'night 21:22:15 <SpComb> xkcd#903 21:22:16 <Ammler> what not? 21:22:41 <Ammler> ah 21:22:55 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, still impressive, glad you have a limit :) 21:23:08 <Ammler> he is just fooling you 21:23:33 <krinn> lol could be yes 21:25:49 <krinn> pfff, just finish my terraforming code, tooked me time 21:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i already said back then that doesn't really apply to me ;) 21:31:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6C253.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 21:32:51 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:32 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:37:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A9EA.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:40:56 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-029-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:45:09 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 21:55:38 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db199d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 22:02:39 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5C8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 22:05:19 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:14 <glx> krinn: the generic term is "avertisseur sonore" 22:10:36 <krinn> or sirÚne 22:10:45 <krinn> but i'm used to klaxon 22:10:48 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 22:14:16 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:18:35 <krinn> night all 22:19:45 *** krinn [~krinn@27.69.87.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:08 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-107.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:20:08 *** fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD269E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:20:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-107.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 22:28:44 *** fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD269E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 22:28:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-107.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:34:36 *** fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD269E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:39:08 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:39:55 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:44:06 <Wolf01> 'night all 22:44:09 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host152-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:44:22 <fjunike> night 22:44:30 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:48 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-110-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:49 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cbb2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:35 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:42 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 22:59:42 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 23:06:43 <fjunike> short code: 23:06:47 <fjunike> local var = 8; while (blah... { var++; print(var); } print(var); 23:07:29 <fjunike> why is the var at the 2nd print not reachable anymore? 23:08:09 <fjunike> i init the var BEVOR the while and loos it after the while loop 23:09:10 <__ln__> english only 23:10:13 <fjunike> ? it is not tai ;) 23:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> fjunike: you are probably missing something 23:25:01 <fjunike> yes a little bit more english knowleg ;) 23:25:14 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 23:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that too :p 23:26:36 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 23:27:37 <fjunike> try again tomorrow good night at all 23:27:47 *** fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD269E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 23:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what remote island is .im? 23:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it actually is an island :p 23:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Isle of Man" 23:47:16 *** NOUK [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 481 seconds]