Log for #openttd on 18th August 2011:
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00:18:28  <Pikka> michi_cc: re custom cargo aging, r22713 is not 1.2... D:
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00:28:40  <Pikka> orudge go to bed
00:28:45  <Pikka> or fix my wiki
00:28:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: every revision after branching 1.1.0-RC1 is 1.2....
00:29:24  <Pikka> eddi: but the newgrf wiki should probably not have "1.2" next to a property if that property doesn't work in the 1.2 stable?
00:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no 1.2 stable yet
00:29:57  <Pikka> oh
00:29:58  <Pikka> 1.1.2
00:30:02  <Pikka> is what I meant :D
00:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that's something totally different
00:30:10  <Pikka> don't mind me, it's too early in the morning
00:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 1.2 stable is next year's version
00:30:20  <Pikka> yes
00:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the nightlies give you 1.2 as (newgrf) version if you ask them
00:30:49  <Pikka> yes, I understand, I just had a reading failure :P
00:31:08  * Pikka makes another cup of tea and carries on
00:31:19  <Pikka> sorry michi_cc
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00:40:55  * Pinkbeast never put A4s and Deltics on everything in UKRS1...
00:41:03  <Pinkbeast> ... waste of the 9F, that
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03:17:22  <KittenKoder> I think I got it now:
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03:26:15  <pikka> ew
03:34:57  <KittenKoder> Eeew?
03:35:18  <KittenKoder> But my sprite wasn't that bad ... :(
03:35:24  <KittenKoder> Oh wait ... :p
03:36:21  <pikka> :o
03:36:29  * pikka waits
03:36:37  <KittenKoder> I think I got it now:
03:37:14  <pikka> stylish
03:37:39  <KittenKoder> I figured out stretch and AA values that seem to work.
03:43:06  <KittenKoder> Now to try the train I want to make most.
03:43:14  <KittenKoder> The HR Giger train.
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05:01:18  <KittenKoder> This one few people will like, but I do:
05:01:30  <KittenKoder> It's mostly CC1
05:01:42  <KittenKoder> Just .... dark.
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06:08:42  <pikka> shhh
06:09:46  <andythenorth> it's oh so quiet
06:10:02  <Prof_Frink> GORDON'S ALIVE!
06:12:46  <KittenKoder> EEEP!
06:21:48  <KittenKoder> Width of the up and down angles for vehicles .... annoying. >.<
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06:23:13  <pjpe> sometimes i really hate path signals
06:23:26  <pjpe> because i get cocky and place one in the wrong place and then everything gets jammed amazingly
06:23:26  <KittenKoder> o.O
06:23:36  <KittenKoder> LOL
06:24:22  <KittenKoder> What is the widest a sprite going up or down can be?
06:24:28  <pjpe> 10
06:24:57  <KittenKoder> Hmm ... I should stick to 8 then even if I lose detail.
06:25:07  <pjpe> maybe 11
06:25:56  <KittenKoder> It's not much of a loss for these two engines .... but later it may be.
06:27:16  <KittenKoder> Also, should the up and down facing ones be stretched lengthwise? The template shows it's longer, about as long as the horizontal ones.
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06:39:31  <pikka> ? koder
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06:40:41  <pikka> the up/ down views are proportioned the same as the horizontal views. the roof should be half the length it is in the horizontal. :)
06:43:59  <KittenKoder> Okay ... I think I have it all worked out.
06:44:28  <KittenKoder> I'll code the two I have done so far and see what it looks like. >.< Hopefully it won't look too bad.
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07:51:41  <KittenKoder> I think there's an error in NML.
07:53:32  <KittenKoder> Found it.
07:53:35  <Noldo> Horror!
07:53:50  <KittenKoder> However, it may not be an error, so ... planetmaker, you alert right now?
07:54:36  <KittenKoder> Erm ... well, anyone who knows NML well would do.
07:54:54  <KittenKoder> Just use to him being the one with all the answers to my code questions. >.<
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08:00:04  <KittenKoder> Aaah, NVM, found the answer, it's a new value and I don't have that OTTD version.
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08:09:42  <planetmaker> KittenKoder: and for the reason that anyone who knows the answer, it usually is a good idea to state the problem in the or near the lines you highlight someone...
08:09:50  <planetmaker> in case they read back...
08:09:58  <KittenKoder> Sorry.
08:10:18  <KittenKoder> It's the cargo_age_period value.
08:11:40  <planetmaker> yes, that's available in OpenTTD for 2(?) weeks or so
08:12:08  <planetmaker> thus in stables only from OpenTTD 1.2.0 onward
08:12:18  <planetmaker> (not 1.1.2 or 1.1.3)
08:13:07  <KittenKoder> I need to update my OTTD. LOL
08:14:43  <dihedral> 'ello
08:17:21  <peter1138> we should switch to firefox versioning
08:17:33  <peter1138> we'll be on OpenTTD 7.0 in no time.
08:17:48  <planetmaker> by the end of the year, surely
08:17:53  <peter1138> (difference between OpenTTD 6.0 will be some translations...)
08:18:17  <peter1138> except now i hear they've changed their mind, and want to hide the version number...
08:19:11  <KittenKoder> >.<
08:22:32  <peter1138> the following add-ons are not compatible with this version of firefox and have been disabled!
08:22:35  <peter1138> damn :p
08:33:44  <EmperorJake> Do invalid orders affect the train's pathfinding in any way?
08:34:15  <EmperorJake> I deleted a waypoint I didn't think was necessary
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08:35:10  <EmperorJake> and now trains are taking weird routes when they have invalid orders, but trains with the same route without invalid orders are taking the normal route.
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08:44:37  <Terkhen> good morning
08:45:07  <planetmaker> hm... crash...
08:45:10  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
08:45:13  <dihedral> good morning to you, too, Terkhen
08:45:48  <planetmaker> we agreed that a newgrf must not crash openttd, right? ;-)
08:46:27  <dihedral> hehe
08:46:31  <Ammler> s/must/should/
08:46:41  <dihedral> does the grf then not get disabled?
08:46:51  <dihedral> i assume though that would be quite a tricky task in the middle of a game
08:47:00  <Ammler> dihedral: quite hard to disable a grf if openttd crashed :-P
08:47:04  <planetmaker> not if it's a valid newgrf and openttd crashes upon using it ;-)
08:47:10  <dihedral> Ammler, lol :-)
08:47:13  <dihedral> and hello to you too
08:47:27  <Ammler> Guten Morgen :-)
08:47:45  <planetmaker> <-- could someone please confirm it for me?
08:47:56  <planetmaker> Build company land in arctic around the snow line...
08:48:10  <planetmaker> (the object-company land it supplies, the fenced tiles)
08:48:26  <planetmaker> also good morning everyone :-)
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08:53:15  <planetmaker> hmpf... somewhat random it seems... now I only get dbg: [sprite] Tried to load character sprite #13 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference
08:54:30  <Terkhen> it does not crash for me... but I'm seing the default sprite for bought land
08:55:10  <Terkhen> (r22727)
08:55:19  <planetmaker> default as in what there was before?
08:55:28  <planetmaker> you have to build the newobject
08:55:36  <planetmaker> landscapeing->place object
08:55:50  <planetmaker> not the normal company land. I can't change that
08:56:10  <Terkhen> hmm... wasn't that an object too?
08:56:26  <Terkhen> it does not crash for me either
08:56:50  <planetmaker> this is a strange thing...
08:57:10  <planetmaker> seems to me like some memory gets corrupted - with unpredicatable results
08:57:59  <planetmaker> hm, can you try to place it adjacent to an antenna?
08:59:05  <planetmaker> yes, that reproducably crashes it for me
09:00:01  <Terkhen> instant crash
09:00:23  <planetmaker> good, then it's not just me. :-) or :-( though I wonder
09:00:28  <Terkhen> I'll get a newer version just in case and prepare a backtrace
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09:02:22  <planetmaker> Reason: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at address: 0x000000000000000c
09:02:23  <planetmaker> 0x00000001001a1f40 in GetObjectIDAtOffset [inlined] () at /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp:143
09:02:23  <planetmaker> 143		if (spec->grf_prop.grffile->grfid == cur_grfid) { // same object, same grf ?
09:04:38  <planetmaker> haha.... it stumbles over the assumption that an object is a newgrf object, I think
09:06:17  <Terkhen> planetmaker:
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09:06:55  <planetmaker> yes, similar here
09:07:46  <planetmaker>
09:08:34  <planetmaker> yes, same happens for HQ being adjacent. I'll assume light house, too
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09:31:45  <planetmaker> hm, not a straight forward fix... but I don't know that code are too well either.
09:31:46  <planetmaker> bbl
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11:58:37  <KittenKoder> Is there a list of formatting codes used in the .lng files for NML? Like {BLACK} and such.
12:00:32  <planetmaker> seemingly not directly
12:01:52  <planetmaker> <-- source code
12:02:02  <KittenKoder> Pooh. Well, I know a few from some of the other files I've seen.
12:02:26  <KittenKoder> Oh yeah, it's written in Python. >.< I can read Python.
12:02:44  <planetmaker> Maybe you can make a documentation patch? :-)
12:03:15  <KittenKoder> I guess I will.
12:03:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: wiki?
12:03:50  <KittenKoder> Cool, even the little icons that show what's what.
12:03:54  <planetmaker>
12:04:05  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes... but which and where? :-)
12:04:32  <Ammler> ah ok, not setup yet, thought that is already done :-P
12:05:19  <KittenKoder> Should I just do it in a simple HTML table?
12:05:46  <KittenKoder> Or just a list?
12:06:32  <KittenKoder> Bulleted list I think is what is used in the documentation for such things, huh.
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12:08:03  <KittenKoder> Or should the unicode and ascii values be shown with them?
12:09:36  <planetmaker> Ammler: it was intially thought to add it to the newgrf specs wiki. But... there's too many people who don't like that
12:12:47  <Hirundo> KittenKoder: I'd say a table, and don't show the unicode/ascii value
12:13:12  <KittenKoder> So a packed table?
12:14:01  <KittenKoder> About how many columns then?
12:14:23  <Hirundo> 2, for 'name' and 'description'
12:15:52  <KittenKoder> I don't know what they all do.
12:16:09  <Hirundo> I'd start by doing the non-parametrized stuff, i.e. the colour codes and special characters
12:16:18  <Hirundo> <- this may help
12:16:44  <KittenKoder> Ahhh, yes, thank you.
12:17:29  <KittenKoder> I still don't get all of it, so I'll fill in what I can, I'm not great at describing things at all.
12:18:51  <Hirundo> All the numeric stuff is currently an explicit byte/word/dword, which I don't like as NML should make you *not* worry about such things
12:19:26  <Hirundo> It's quite possible that those will be changed later to match OpenTTD's string codes
12:19:29  <KittenKoder> Meh.
12:19:57  <KittenKoder> After I'm done watching Transformers I'll finish it.
12:21:45  <KittenKoder> I'll probably just OpenOffice edit it for simplicity.
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12:51:20  <planetmaker> a diff file would be most convenient.
12:52:39  <KittenKoder> Never made one.
12:53:17  <KittenKoder> As I said, I'm not a good team player so I don't have many skills that are commonly associated with team efforts.
12:56:53  <KittenKoder> I don't even know where you would want the table put.
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13:08:13  <dihedral> KittenKoder> As I said, I'm not a good team player so I don't have many skills that are commonly associated with team efforts. <- well that statement will get you a job anywhere ....
13:08:37  <KittenKoder> Meh, I'm good with freelance right now, so no worries. ;)
13:09:14  <planetmaker> er... you want to tell me you're earning your living in IT on freelance but never made a patch?!
13:09:35  <planetmaker> that's... incredulous
13:09:48  <KittenKoder> I do custom server software setups for small business, ones that can't afford professional teams.
13:10:21  <KittenKoder> ... and no, it's not incredulous ....
13:11:23  <KittenKoder> There's a lot of software development in many fields that is not team centered.
13:12:24  <planetmaker> well, I hatched wrt software development here... and I can't imagine that using such as impracticable even when working on one own
13:12:26  <KittenKoder> Most of it was just pieces in the early times, very little had such tracking done.
13:13:03  <KittenKoder> Actually, it's more work tracking each tiny change, especially when there's no need to.
13:14:01  <KittenKoder> I never keep old versions of my own code, out of habit, when I don't need it it's deleted, because when I started we were lucky to have 256K floppy disks.
13:14:58  <KittenKoder> I mean, before my era they had 256 byte disks that were 8 inch squares.
13:15:32  <Belugas> hello
13:15:34  <planetmaker> those floppies were actually 360kB... ;-)
13:15:37  <planetmaker> hello Belugas
13:15:45  <Belugas> hi hi :)
13:15:51  <KittenKoder> Meh, memory isn't that keen. ;)
13:16:13  <KittenKoder> Soon after we had the 1.44 meg ones.
13:16:18  <planetmaker> so yes, having used computers back then doesn't mean one cannot learn to make use of new techniques
13:16:20  <KittenKoder> You could fit half a game on one.
13:16:35  <planetmaker> You fit dozens of games on one
13:16:42  <planetmaker> been there, seen that.
13:16:46  <KittenKoder> No, however I only work in computers now because it's the only job I could get, not the one I wanted.
13:16:48  <planetmaker> Word 5.0 fit on 20 360kB disks
13:17:35  <glx> I still have 3" disks
13:17:57  <KittenKoder> Programming is still in the realm of hobby to me, career choice was actually service industry, but things interfered with that so now I have no choice.
13:18:13  <planetmaker> 3", glx?
13:18:20  <KittenKoder> I still don't want to work on computers, takes all the fun out of it.
13:18:25  <KittenKoder> 3.5 inches.
13:18:33  <glx> cpc planetmaker
13:18:38  <planetmaker> :-)
13:18:49  <Belugas> 360k floppies... i think i still have a pile of those at home
13:18:50  <KittenKoder> Holy ... you are a picky cuss.
13:19:03  <KittenKoder> :p
13:19:41  <Belugas> well... no... i'm not good at cleaning up my mess ;)
13:20:38  <KittenKoder> We have a store here that has a museum of computers ....
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13:21:02  <KittenKoder> It's a stroll down memory lane .... what little of my memory is in tact.
13:25:26  <KittenKoder> Speaking of which, I need to make a laser keyboard ... sick of these clunky things.
13:26:24  <planetmaker> just buy a camera keyboard... a virtual one
13:26:32  <planetmaker> then you can type on anything
13:26:51  <KittenKoder> Um ... that's what a laser keyboard does.
13:27:10  <KittenKoder> Also, buying one is hard, the laser ones run for about 0 online, and none are local.
13:27:45  <planetmaker> I'm not convinced that "building one" is a task done in a day
13:27:56  <KittenKoder> Not in a day, no. ;)
13:28:40  <planetmaker> all, optics, laser, camera and image processing software will be interesting challenges on their own
13:29:41  <KittenKoder> Actually, it's not software driven, the concept is very basic if you understand it. The light grid translates broken beam coordinates into standard keycodes.
13:29:53  <KittenKoder> So ... to the computer it's just another keyboard.
13:30:05  * Belugas could not open a computer museum, but he can surely open a camera museum, for sure...
13:30:28  <KittenKoder> The projection is the hard part, but if you are only using one keyboard layout that could be hardwired.
13:30:28  * Rubidium wonders where his abacus is
13:31:16  <KittenKoder> Remember, the commercial products are for the eye candy, you pay more for the window dressing than the actual tech.
13:32:03  <KittenKoder> The laser keyboards you buy also use a different tap detection than the light grid, but meh, the parts for what they used would probably be harder to find now.
13:32:15  <KittenKoder> Radio Shack no longer sells actual tech.
13:33:08  <planetmaker> KittenKoder: that depends which commercial products ;-)
13:33:10  <KittenKoder> I miss the days when you could go to Radio Shack and buy all the parts to build anything.
13:33:20  * planetmaker knows enough where you pay definitely more for the hardware
13:33:42  <KittenKoder> planetmaker, granted, but most of the fancy stuff it is. :p
13:33:44  <glx> iStuff ?
13:34:25  <KittenKoder> The only reason I don't buy Apple products, you pay more for the look and customer service than the actual hardware.
13:35:36  <glx> don't forget basic feature missing ;)
13:36:50  <glx> (trolling is too easy :) )
13:36:56  <KittenKoder> lol
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13:37:46  <KittenKoder> Personally, I appreciate the Apple company, they have upped the bar on advances.
13:38:35  <Rubidium> Apple and customer service?
13:38:56  <Rubidium> taking your iPhone out your pocket on a misty day voids the warranty
13:39:06  <KittenKoder> Sadly, they do have some of the best customer service still, in spite of it's flaws.
13:39:27  <glx> yeah they like their customers
13:39:37  <KittenKoder> ... as long as they keep paying money.
13:39:39  <KittenKoder> :p
13:40:03  <glx> new OSX version, you have to buy new version of all your apps
13:40:17  <KittenKoder> I saw that.
13:40:36  <KittenKoder> But then Win7 did to, for most.
13:41:09  <glx> most apps still run on win7
13:41:14  <KittenKoder> .... and Ubuntu is making me very annoyed lately.
13:41:37  <KittenKoder> Since my last update FTP connections are completely unreliable.
13:41:48  <glx> MS knows what backward compatibility means
13:42:18  <KittenKoder> It means the death of sales. ;)
13:42:57  <KittenKoder> Backwards compatibility for Windows is usually only one version back now, when it use to include all versions.
13:47:14  <glx> usually apps failing on new versions were badly coded
13:47:22  <KittenKoder> Not really.
13:47:49  <KittenKoder> They have been discarding old structures a lot, though I think it's more indecision than anything.
13:48:23  <KittenKoder> Win32API was the first one they got rid of, then GDI+ for the graphics ....
13:48:33  <glx> they are still usable
13:49:06  <KittenKoder> I do not think they are included in the default install.
13:49:06  <glx> just the minimum version changed in msdn
13:49:25  <KittenKoder> However I have not been with Windows for a long time so don't know all the details anymore.
13:49:45  <glx> openttd still uses old stuff
13:49:56  <glx> runs on all windows versions
13:50:06  <KittenKoder> Doesn't it use the new SDL?
13:50:17  <glx> why use SDL on windows ?
13:50:28  <KittenKoder> o.O
13:50:43  <KittenKoder> For one, write once, compile for anywhere.
13:51:02  <glx> SDL doesn't work everywhere
13:51:41  <KittenKoder> Are you sure?
13:52:10  <glx> we had many problems with SDL on OSX
13:52:50  <glx> it's always better to use native stuff when available
13:52:51  <Rubidium> yep, SDL fails quite nastily on OSX
13:53:07  <Rubidium> and... it doesn't support the most important platform: DOS
13:53:23  <Rubidium> how can a (previously) DOS game not work on DOS?
13:53:24  <glx> but on OSX native stuff tends to be replaced in every new version :)
13:53:42  <Rubidium> or, even worse...
13:53:57  <KittenKoder> Well, OpenTTD uses SDL.
13:54:19  <glx> for linux yes
13:54:26  <Rubidium> functionality gets removed when the methods telling which functionality there is still say said functionality is still there
13:54:27  <glx> else it would be a pain ;)
13:54:33  <KittenKoder> For all of them:
13:54:49  <KittenKoder> Wait.
13:54:56  <KittenKoder> NVM, I misread something there.
13:55:13  <glx> SDL and fontconfig are not required on mac.  ;)
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13:57:12  <KittenKoder> Yep, I misread that. ;)
13:57:33  <Rubidium> then you're not using an old enough version of OpenTTD ;)
13:57:51  <KittenKoder> I am wondering why SDL is incompatible with OSX though.
13:58:23  <KittenKoder> Why use an old version?
13:58:48  <KittenKoder> The latest has many cool new features.
13:59:02  <Rubidium> KittenKoder: till line 227
13:59:46  <__ln__> oh no, the infamous annual OpenTTD-and-SDL-on-Mac discussion
14:00:51  <KittenKoder> __ln__, I did not know about the SDL and Mac issue. So it's news to me. :p
14:01:07  <KittenKoder> As for that issue, meh ... that's not a big issue.
14:01:33  <KittenKoder> ... and as the report says, it's really bad signal setup anyway.
14:02:07  <planetmaker> __ln__: IIRC it got ever so slightly better. But I'd not consider it a solution
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14:05:52  <__ln__> if i had time, i'd try to compile ottd so that it uses the QuickTime api for music/sounds on windows.
14:06:08  <KittenKoder> o.O
14:07:57  <__ln__> and if it didn't work smoothly, i'd create a bug report about.
14:08:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22757 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Fix [FS#4730]: [NewGRF] Invalid memory access when querying the grfID of the default objects
14:11:32  <__ln__> +it
14:12:09  <KittenKoder> I have never seen Quicktime work smoothly on anything that's not Apple.
14:13:05  <KittenKoder> But then I haven't touched it since ... 1998 I think?
14:15:26  <MNIM> quicktime... does that even still exist?
14:15:33  <KittenKoder> LOL
14:15:38  <planetmaker> it's apple's default media player?
14:15:52  <KittenKoder> I think it is.
14:16:00  <MNIM> lol, I prefer not to touch anything apple with a ten feet long nuke
14:16:04  <MNIM> *even with
14:16:05  <planetmaker> Let's say it's currently doing its job here very well ;-)
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14:34:36  <Belugas> as well as all the iToys invading the market and defining quite a few standards ;)
14:35:56  <planetmaker> they spent some time on design
14:37:21  <glx> and they forgot usability ?
14:37:23  <glx> ;)
14:40:32  <planetmaker> they don't target the average audience of this channel :-)
14:43:02  <__ln__> MNIM: besides, QuickTime Player is not quite the same as the QuickTime API.
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14:43:50  <planetmaker> :-)
14:49:57  <Belugas> usability?  cannot tell, i have seen those, bu never experienced them.  i have no use for those toys
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14:58:06  <planetmaker> Belugas: that toy lets me chat with you now ;-)
14:58:37  <Belugas> hehe
14:58:44  <Belugas> good for you, planetmaker ;)
14:59:23  <Belugas> as of me, my internet experience is still linked to non-mobile stations
14:59:56  <Belugas> note that my wife is more adventurous then me, she is actively looking for a tablet, been ipad or else
15:00:03  <Belugas> i guess i'm too lazy
15:00:34  <planetmaker> well... technically this is a laptop even without an "i" ;-)
15:02:32  * peter1138 remembers quicktime in the early/mid nineties
15:03:08  <peter1138> that was truely terrifying
15:03:10  <planetmaker> it sucked on windows when I still had such OS ;-)
15:03:35  <peter1138> back when the quicktime logo had 4 squares
15:04:47  <peter1138> possibly the apple logo still had colours, but i don't recall
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15:09:32  <Belugas> neither do i
15:10:20  <Belugas> i did not like it, due to the way it slowed down the machine
15:10:27  <Belugas> exit da stuf!
15:10:41  <Belugas> my machine was not a bomb, mind you..
15:10:49  <Belugas> still the case hehehe..
15:11:22  <Eddi|zuHause> back in the days when 60MHz was fast ;)
15:11:43  <planetmaker> that fast? ;-)
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15:22:12  <Belugas> well... let say... my modem was a 2400 one :)
15:22:51  <Belugas> well.. honestly, when QucikTime came in, i was using a 9600...
15:22:57  <Belugas> i think
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15:26:01  <Sacro> what about realplayer?
15:26:08  <peter1138> still buffering
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17:25:10  <Nite> Hi
17:28:11  <Nite> is it a known bug that savegames make you loose money down to 8 digits?
17:29:38  <frosch123> maybe you swiched currency
17:30:27  <Nite> no i always play in pounds
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17:32:02  <Nite> but they are 1.1.1 savegames loaded in 1.1.2
17:32:22  <planetmaker> do you have such savegame?
17:32:42  <planetmaker> which load correctly in 1.1.1 and not in 1.1.2?
17:33:05  <Nite> well all of them sudenly have below 100 Mill pounds
17:33:26  <Nite> like (183 Mill but now only 83)
17:33:48  <Nite> as said cut down to 8 digits
17:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "mill" means "thousand", btw.
17:35:16  <opa_> or thousandth?
17:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's "milli"
17:36:42  <Nite> mil. mean million
17:36:52  <Nite> mio. means million
17:36:58  <Nite> mill actually means nothing
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17:37:12  <opa_> wikipedia seems to disagree with you
17:37:14  <Nite> but everyone will think million
17:37:18  <Nite> exept eddi
17:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the majority of people are stupid, you know :p
17:37:51  <Nite> all my money reduced in old savegames
17:38:10  <Nite> i had a billion (1000 million) game
17:38:14  <Nite> all gone
17:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: so where is your savegame?!?
17:38:34  <planetmaker> :-)
17:38:41  <Nite> nowhere because iam to lazy to upload
17:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause> then we are too lazy to fix it. sorry.
17:39:03  <Nite> ok
17:39:17  <Nite> ;-)
17:41:06  <Nite> but can i see what version the savegames are from somehow?
17:41:30  <planetmaker> console: gamelog
17:43:21  <Nite> ty
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17:45:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22758 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
17:45:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by ABCRic
17:45:48  <Nite> ok it are realyl all 1.1.1 to 1.1.2 games, but i wonder because both versions have same savegame version 160
17:46:08  <Nite> eventually i will upload such savegame(s)
17:46:39  <Nite> but first i will check them in 1.1.1
17:47:54  <planetmaker> savegame version only changes if the savegame format changes
17:51:03  <Nite> ok savegames lost money in 1.1.1 too
17:51:11  <Nite> how did i ruin them ?
17:53:48  <Nite> could newgrf have to do with it? basecost mod?
17:54:45  <Nite> ohh no
17:55:04  <Nite> good i didnt upload anything yet
17:55:23  <Nite> iam stupid <-
17:55:46  <Nite> i was in the wrong company because it where multiplayer games ...
17:57:19  <Nite> ok now i can go for 3000 mil
17:58:16  <Nite> pebcak as usual ...
18:00:42  <Nite> btw i have to say that implicit orders are really no hassle anymore ...
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18:03:30  <Nite> cya
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18:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "Notch challenges Bethesda to 'trial by combat' in Quake 3 over trademark lawsuit"
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18:33:21  <andythenorth> "tonight is rivers night"
18:35:57  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
18:38:28  <Wolf01> hello
18:40:43  <SmatZ> hello
18:42:52  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 and SmatZ
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18:46:21  <planetmaker> ho, hello Wolf01 and SmatZ from here, too :-)
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18:47:09  <Zuu> Interesting forum quote "We wanted as much realism and interesting concepts as possible in our games, the best one ive played with so far is a Mars one he set up online."
18:47:47  <Terkhen> it seems that many people confuse realism with fun
18:47:56  <Terkhen> or maybe consistent or complex or whatever
18:48:25  <Zuu> Although you could argue that there is a Mars reality or even a Toyland reality. :-)
18:49:05  <Terkhen> consistency with a setting that is not real is not realism IMO
18:51:53  <planetmaker> yup :-)
18:51:58  <planetmaker> Consistency is important
18:54:45  <Terkhen> yes, but it's not realism :P
18:55:04  <andythenorth> A foolish Consistency is the hobgoblins of little minds, adored by little statesmen, philosophers, and divines. With consistency, a great soul simply has nothing to do.
18:55:06  <andythenorth> blah
18:55:19  <Alberth> Terkhen: perhaps your realism is not the same as his realism :)
18:55:26  <Wolf01> I think in a fantastic world, everything which fits with the other things is "realistic"
18:56:10  <Terkhen> maybe, but I'm still sure the usual person calling for "realism" on OpenTTD most of the time has a contradictory idea of what realism is
18:56:12  <Wolf01> I mean, if you put a banana on mars, it's not realistic, but an alien looking structure to convert lava to steel could be realistic
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18:57:43  <Alberth> Wolf01: that's more 'consistent with the game level description'
18:58:19  <Wolf01> yes, but that concept is too hard to remember for the average people
18:58:26  <Wolf01> so they remember "realistic"
18:59:18  <Alberth> could be, and that may somewhat explain aiming for realism
18:59:58  <Wolf01> I aim for complexity and consistency for example
19:01:31  <Wolf01> too bad is not always possible to achieve both results
19:02:52  <Alberth> I am not quite sure about 'complexity', I can easy imagine complex ways of playing the game that really kill the fun
19:03:21  <Wolf01> like today, I was developing the "consistence" part and they asked me for "complexity", I answered "ok, but then will be less consistent" (ok, not these exact words)
19:03:57  <Terkhen> yes, when you have contradictory goals, you have to compromise... and then you usually aim for whatever is more fun or simpler
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19:05:03  <Alberth> or be creative and give it a nice twist, but that is often difficult
19:05:07  <Wolf01> like "I can't do that with bare php, I must use jscript (jquery) or directly Ajax" :P
19:05:14  <Terkhen> :P
19:05:33  <SmatZ> Ajax!
19:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: where do you get lava from on mars?
19:06:07  <Terkhen> heating rocks?
19:06:33  <Wolf01> the Mars' water looks like lava to me
19:06:35  <Terkhen> maybe there is a bit remaining at the core, who knows :)
19:06:50  <Terkhen> for me it looks like strawberry tang
19:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yeah, but that's totally not realistic :p
19:07:22  <Wolf01> just because it's called "Mars", it it will be called "Char" it would be totally realistic
19:07:26  <Wolf01> *if it
19:07:33  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: but it is alien, anything can happen then :)
19:09:04  <Wolf01> however, not just complex way of play the game, (O)TTD(X) is well playable without building any junction, lots of spaghetti railways with only one train on them, or one single big network with one train which do all  the job with an accurate refitting schedule
19:10:05  <Wolf01> with complexity I mean to be able to do things which allow more options, fulli flexible track layout under bridges added a new degree of complexity
19:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> now wait for fully flexible track layouts on bridges :p
19:12:25  <Terkhen> fully flexible track layouts underground too
19:12:30  <Wolf01> I'm waiting for diagonal rails on slopes (diagonally respect the grid)
19:13:21  <Wolf01> you have an octagon shaped hill, I feel annoying to be able to climb it fron only 4 sides
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19:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yep, i feel with you
19:16:03  <Alberth> diagonal bridges would be useful too
19:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i wait for "inverse foundations"
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19:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. lower one level with walls, instead of raise
19:16:36  <andythenorth> I considered doing those in FIRS
19:16:40  <andythenorth> it's possible for industry
19:16:47  <Alberth> yeah, I was wondering why you need those
19:17:05  <planetmaker> everything with sprite layouts
19:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i want to place double track along hills
19:17:12  <planetmaker> would be interesting, I think
19:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> one track lowered foundation and the other track raised foundation
19:19:25  <Wolf01> if I update my sloped stations patch, it would be difficult to have a grf property to set the station placeable on plain only, on the slope but results plain or in the slope->sloped ?
19:21:23  <Wolf01> I say, buffer stops should be placed facing the slope, but a station tile with a crossing or wathever should not be placed facing the slope
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19:22:24  <Wolf01> other station tiles could be sloped like tarmac ones with no buildings or objects
19:23:24  <Wolf01> this could help on making ramps with non-track tiles for fake roads
19:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the problem with that is the fallback when station grf is removed
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19:25:27  <Wolf01> you can't remove grfs on a running game
19:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you can.
19:25:45  <Wolf01> ok, but you shouldn't
19:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can. and stations are specifically designed to handle that
19:26:13  <Hirundo> Don't things break horribly already when changing station grf, when tiles go from track to non-track with a train on them?
19:26:20  <Wolf01> yes
19:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because that was apparently some case that was overlooked
19:27:02  <Wolf01> so overlook another case and we are all happy with another feature which adds complexity
19:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause> imho sloped stations only make sense for road vehicles
19:27:59  <Wolf01> that part is already implemented (in my patch) and works really well
19:28:05  <Hirundo> Sloped RV stations could very well be done (graphics-wise) via action5, methinks
19:28:09  <andythenorth> who wants to load a truck on a hill anyway?
19:28:14  <andythenorth> buses maybe :P
19:28:27  <Alberth> mail trucks :)
19:28:27  <Wolf01> try going on Trieste in Italy
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19:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm mainly thinking trams and busses. i don't use trucks a lot
19:29:21  <Wolf01> placing a 400kg glass panel at 12m of height in a road with a slope of 30%
19:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> in cities you often have difficulties getting horizontal road pieces, without destroying half the town
19:30:19  <Alberth> try the small towns against the hills in arctic climate :)
19:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
19:33:10  <Terkhen> :)
19:33:26  <Hirundo> For (sloped) train stations, it might make sense to store the track/non-track state on the map, and show a newgrf error if that status changes (akin to vehicle length changes when not in depot)
19:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> train stations are legally required to be completely flat, in germany (afair)
19:35:19  <Alberth> luckily, germany is not in the arctic climate ;)
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19:38:39  * andythenorth has made crappy rivers in arctic
19:38:40  <andythenorth> this sucks
19:38:50  <andythenorth> stupid stupid stupid
19:40:18  <andythenorth> arctic tiles are not a straight recolour of temperate tiles  :\
19:42:35  <SmatZ> :P
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20:08:14  <andythenorth> Rubidium: for each climate, I'll have to re-shade every sprite by hand :)
20:08:18  <andythenorth> this will take....longer
20:10:11  <Rubidium> :(
20:10:38  <SmatZ> well, it's your spriteset, isn't it?
20:10:46  <SmatZ> so you can just recolour it...
20:11:03  <Rubidium> SmatZ: it's for openttd.grf
20:11:15  <SmatZ> oh
20:11:19  <SmatZ> ok then...
20:11:25  * SmatZ hugs andythenorth
20:11:27  <SmatZ> :)
20:11:43  <andythenorth> it has to match original ttd landscape ;)
20:11:48  <andythenorth> and it has to be good
20:12:03  <SmatZ> that's why you draw it ;)
20:12:17  <andythenorth> I draw it because no other bugger will :P
20:12:25  <SmatZ> :)
20:12:32  * andythenorth doubts the sprites will be used outside of SE
20:12:48  <andythenorth> makes other people happy, so I'll do it :P
20:14:11  <Terkhen> :)
20:14:20  <SmatZ> :)
20:17:44  <Terkhen> good night
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20:22:17  * andythenorth ponders consolidating to just 'supplies'
20:22:43  <SmatZ> :D
20:23:36  <Rubidium> andythenorth: just make it smurfs
20:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what good that would do...
20:23:50  <Rubidium> then the smurf will smurf the smurf and smurf to smurf and smurf
20:24:14  <SmatZ> :D
20:25:30  * andythenorth ponders unexpected palette issues
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20:27:31  <andythenorth> ffs
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20:31:39  <Markk> Okej
20:31:46  <Markk> Whoops, wrong channel. :)
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20:38:20  <glx> Rubidium: I'm used to schtroumpf
20:38:34  <Belugas> me too :)
20:38:48  <Belugas> wonder why !
20:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they're called "Schlumpf" in german
20:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> on a related note:
20:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
20:46:09  <andythenorth> what do primary industries need?
20:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> workforce
20:46:37  <andythenorth> deliver passengers for production increase?
20:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no, deliver passengers for production at all...
20:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and take them home after an 8 hour shift
20:47:11  <andythenorth> lame
20:48:52  <frosch123> someone suggested to deliver prisoners from prisons to mines
20:48:58  <frosch123> :s
20:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a use for the prisoner transport wagon :)
20:50:29  <Alberth> petrol & dynamite
20:50:44  <frosch123> night
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20:51:26  <andythenorth> dynamite!
20:52:28  * andythenorth replaces all FIRS supplies with Dynamite!
20:53:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. deliver fishing grounds with dynamite!
20:53:11  <Alberth> and forests :)
20:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, fishing grounds don't even accept supplies)
20:53:48  <andythenorth> hmm
20:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (or do they? i don't remember)
20:53:53  <andythenorth> the game already has dynamite
20:53:58  <andythenorth> so I can just remove supplies
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20:54:13  <andythenorth> can a newgrf enable magic dynamite?
20:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> make it "chemical supplies", to model dynamite and fertilizer
20:54:46  <andythenorth> just dynamite the industry
20:54:48  <andythenorth> problem solved
20:54:55  * andythenorth ponders a new economy for FIRS
20:54:57  <andythenorth> PAX only
20:55:10  <andythenorth> I can rm -r * except for the cargo definitions code
20:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> missing -f ;)
20:55:50  <Alberth> in a repo? quite tricky :)
20:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "svn/hg rm"
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21:01:00  <Belugas> schlumpf... smurfs... schtroumpfs...  incredible how many strange sounds those guys have created :)
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21:07:25  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:33:33  <appe>
21:33:38  <appe> "horribly bad"
21:33:41  <appe> how does one fix that? :)
21:36:06  <__ln__> why is DÃ¥lig written with a capital D?
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21:36:15  <__ln__> doesn't make sense
21:36:38  <appe> true.
21:36:56  <appe> i have lots of trains and airfields around the city
21:37:03  <appe> is that whats causing it?
21:37:19  <__ln__> and why isn't the title "Hudhams lokala ..." or "Lokala myndigheter i Hudham" or something...
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21:58:59  <Zuu> __ln__: Shall I fix that in the translation? ;-)
22:03:24  <__ln__> sure, if you agree to the points of my criticism about it
22:03:41  <nicfer> is there any new about the new roads GRF API?
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22:10:36  <Zuu> "Hemskt Dålig" corresponds to the worst rating. The one before is "VÀldigt dålig" with a lowercase d. Thus one could think that the D is used to marke it is even worse.
22:11:14  <Zuu> But I think it looks better with a lowercase d.
22:11:22  <Zuu> If someone dissagree he can change it back :-p
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22:13:08  <Zuu> appe: As it looks like you actually use the swedish translation, perhaps you should become a translator and help ironing out strange wordings that don't make sense in the context etc.
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22:14:17  <Zuu> Get started here:
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22:25:44  <Zuu> FS#4709 - save dialog hides behind news message <-- Oh.. interesting
22:26:24  <Zuu> Someone is making a patch to allow windows to have a z-priority.
22:27:38  <pjpe> they didn't before?
22:29:51  <pjpe> seems like it would have been done i the last
22:29:52  <pjpe> 7 years
22:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there's usually no need
22:31:10  <appe> Zuu: im on it.
22:33:08  <Zuu> pjpe: The windowmanager + widget toolkit in OpenTTD is of coures a bit limited compared to a fullblown gnome environment to take just one example. After all OpenTTD is a game and not a window manager. :-)
22:33:49  <pjpe> a game a with a heck lotta windows
22:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and a "window manager" from the DOS-age
22:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> (actually it was already improved to handle more windows simultaneously)
22:38:44  <Zuu> And it has gained the ability to show more than one edit box on the screen at the same time. :-)
22:39:20  <Zuu> What is still left is to implement ability to have more than one edit box in the same window.
22:40:20  <Zuu> Oh and not to forget the change to dynamic sized widgets.
22:40:33  <pjpe> what is with the weird onscreen keyboard thing that comes up when you double click a text entry window thing
22:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that is something entirely different
22:40:56  <pjpe> i never understood what that is for
22:40:59  <Zuu> pjpe: It's for devices without a physical keyboard.
22:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: it's an on-screen-keyboard, what's weird about that?
22:41:19  <pjpe> whoa people play opened without a keyboard?
22:41:22  <pjpe> that seems so strange
22:41:23  <Zuu> Or if you really like to, you can use it on your desktop.
22:41:38  <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: handheld devices?
22:41:43  <Zuu> People like to port OpenTTD to various devices.
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23:02:08  <Adamos> Hi, is there somebody using OpenGRF+Industries?
23:03:13  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:03:31  <Adamos> i was trying to add iron ore mine to subarctic map - that worked fine, but no train was able to load iron ore. I tried lot of grfs combinations... none of them worked
23:04:14  <Adamos> finally i tried just OpenGRF+Industries and OpenGRF+Trains in version 1.1.2
23:05:03  <Adamos> in this thread seems everything is working just fine
23:05:52  <pjpe> just making sure
23:06:00  <pjpe> you're sure you can't just refit a wagon to hold it?
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23:06:22  <Zuu_> night
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23:12:29  <Adamos> i have wagons which can carry iron ore (or water, or copper - i also tried) - but i just stays at 0%
23:12:41  <Adamos> i can send you savegame file
23:12:59  <Hirundo> Did you refit the wagon to the correct cargo?
23:13:25  <Adamos> yeah, i have
23:14:04  <pjpe> and you've tried placing the station right next to the industry?
23:14:29  <Adamos> i did
23:16:33  <Adamos> i just started multiplayer game, you can look at it - name is OpenGRF+industry BUG
23:19:27  <Adamos> it seems my server is not visible... but still i can send savegame file
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23:51:00  <pjpe> this is going to be an odd question
23:51:06  <pjpe> how has pathfinding fundamentally changed since like 2006
23:51:07  <Adamos> well, sorry for bothering you guys... fault on my side
23:51:16  <pjpe> like i'm going through the old speed signal patch
23:51:33  <pjpe> and it's adding the pathfinding cost code for the signals in 'pathfind.c'
23:51:47  <pjpe> which not only doesn't seem to exist it's not before the code was changed to c++ i'm guessing
23:52:05  <pjpe> can you not add cost factors to all pathfinders at once?
23:52:19  <pjpe> or do you have to like patch npf, opt and yapf to add a cost to something?
23:56:21  <Adamos> wish you good spirit with these pathfinding - i never had studied it too deep, but the bit i had is enough to hold all my fingers to you to solve it in reasonable way...

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