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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 01:45:33 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:653e:48c3:a9e5:7713] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:05:02 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 02:26:59 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-142-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:32:00 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-241-202.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:10:15 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:41:34 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ebn106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 04:48:57 *** ar3k [~ident@ebo153.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B753A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:18 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72D09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:22:31 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DA25.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 05:27:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A25F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:28:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 05:55:53 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:02:12 <Terkhen> good morning 06:16:31 <planetmaker> moin 06:24:36 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@195-240-99-235.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 06:36:19 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-232-115.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 06:58:40 *** Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> charm.oftc.net quits: devilsadvocate, Born_Acorn, supermop, Lachie, ccfreak2k, Andel, lugo, Theos, Eddi|zuHause 06:59:48 *** Netsplit over, joins: supermop, Born_Acorn, Andel, Lachie, Eddi|zuHause, Theos, devilsadvocate, lugo, ccfreak2k 07:02:47 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 07:03:00 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:11:26 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:17:20 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:25:53 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:27:49 <andythenorth> mrrrning 07:31:15 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:33:30 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 07:34:01 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.99.41] has joined #openttd 07:36:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-037-154.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:38:41 * andythenorth gives leanden some 'help' with roadtypes :P 07:42:25 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-018-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:51:30 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 07:59:18 <dihedral> morning 08:08:53 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@195-240-99-235.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:09:33 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-232-115.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:11:39 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:16:15 *** Zeknurn [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:57 *** Zeknurn [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 08:19:27 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 09:06:43 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@80.127.220.162] has joined #openttd 09:09:37 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:09:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:43:04 *** staN [bc6f57fe@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:15:03 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:27:53 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:28:30 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 10:32:31 <JVassie> rawr 10:34:51 <planetmaker> rwar 10:36:15 <JVassie> howsa is yousa? 10:40:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:52:09 <JVassie> how good is netbeans as an IDE for writing c++? 10:52:56 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:59:40 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:39:01 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:45:07 <andythenorth> tra la la la 11:45:10 <andythenorth> one tile locks? 11:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> recode the lock as an object with a state machine ;) 11:46:12 <andythenorth> I'll get right on that :P 11:46:13 <andythenorth> :) 11:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> prerequesite: implement state machines for objects :p 11:53:25 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 12:01:35 <andythenorth> hmm 12:01:40 * andythenorth forgot this isn't yacd :P 12:23:26 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:610a:34d2:61c9:f3b1] has joined #openttd 12:23:29 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:33:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f51ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:40:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A02D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:42:58 *** krinn [~krinn@211.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 12:43:11 <krinn> hi all 12:43:12 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-250-245.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 12:43:37 <krinn> can a newGRF (a trainset) lie to openttd or is it some kind of bug in openttd or the newGRF ? 12:44:32 <krinn> as i have one train saying only it can pull passenger to AIEngine.CanPullCargo and false for other cargo, and this train can indeed pull other cargo 12:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 12:45:02 <krinn> openttd or newGRF bug ? 12:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> involved newgrfs would be helpful. 12:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but my crystal ball says it might have to do with invalid callback on the purchase list 12:46:35 <krinn> it's UKRS train set 12:47:00 <krinn> the lying engine is name 4-6-2 Streak (Steam) 12:47:36 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:49:00 <krinn> that's awful because using AIEngine.CanPullCargo to filter bad wagons with HST engine == the 4-6-2 is filtered out while it can be use to pull something other than just passenger 12:49:08 <krinn> lol the two trains are in the same set ^^ 12:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> which ukrs version? i don't see a 4-6-2 streak 12:51:18 <krinn> second i look where i can find that 12:51:47 <krinn> 0,81/proj1000 ? 12:51:56 <krinn> it's that the version ? 12:52:14 <krinn> UKRS2 12:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that is ukrs2... 12:53:04 <krinn> oh i see public alpha0.81 going check for an update 12:53:50 <krinn> no that's latest version from banana 12:54:48 <krinn> should i just consider that a bug in it from the newGRF author and ignore the engine ? 12:56:07 <Sacro> !summon Pikka 12:56:44 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is the meaning of "canpullcargo"? 12:57:41 <krinn> a train can pull a wagon with a cargotype 12:57:59 <krinn> if canpullcargo(pass) = false -> you cannot use that engine to pull wagon with passenger 12:58:38 <krinn> but tests and openttd show it's just more a : canonlypullpass || canpullanything 12:59:28 <planetmaker> that's also what the docs say, don't they? 12:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a link to the documentation? 12:59:31 *** perk11 [~perk11@31.181.150.76] has joined #openttd 12:59:57 <krinn> from openttd return (::RailVehInfo(engine_id)->ai_passenger_only != 1) || AICargo::HasCargoClass(cargo_id, AICargo::CC_PASSENGERS); 13:00:01 <krinn> http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIEngine.html#657f308ece02382bed5f9a7405eb0f14 13:00:24 <krinn> the note is interresting :) 13:02:06 <planetmaker> :-) 13:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that note doesn't make a lot of sense 13:02:35 <krinn> that note seems to say: yep, i'm a useless function 13:03:09 <krinn> more like a dup of :) http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIBase.html#c57cf1dd4123657ba2d6f33afa5e1cfa 13:03:12 <planetmaker> but it's about true... only testing it can really tell you with newgrfs 13:03:48 <krinn> but within the same newGRF, it's not about some conflict with another newGRF or things like that 13:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i'm fairly sure that it returns property 08: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains 13:04:31 <krinn> and i can easy show you it's not ^^ 13:04:55 <krinn> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-aivehicletest 13:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: and if that is what it does, it means the answer to your original question is: "yes, the newgrf can lie about it" 13:06:21 <krinn> yes, it was to see if the real answer was "it's a bug in openttd/newgrf" or "it's a useless function" 13:06:39 <planetmaker> hm... I thought there was a property or flag which signals to AIs whether a vehicle should preferentially be used for passengers. But I don't find it 13:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: my line above 13:07:27 <planetmaker> exactly. thank you 13:07:28 <glx> it just returns not optimised for passenger (prop 8) or cargo class is passenger 13:07:37 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:07:42 <andythenorth> stupid docks 13:08:06 <andythenorth> stupid locks 13:08:09 <andythenorth> stupid canals 13:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> stupid rivers? ;) 13:08:31 <planetmaker> stupid game! 13:08:34 <andythenorth> stupid game 13:08:35 <planetmaker> it's not real! 13:08:42 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has joined #openttd 13:08:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 13:08:49 <krinn> stupid lag ? 13:09:02 <Belugas> hi 13:09:06 <krinn> hi 13:09:14 <planetmaker> hi Belugas 13:09:27 <krinn> should i filebug for CanPullCargo ? 13:09:39 <Belugas> bien le bonjour :) 13:09:44 <glx> the function seems correct 13:09:46 <krinn> de même Belugas 13:10:00 <planetmaker> what is the bug, krinn? 13:10:08 <planetmaker> a newgrf reporting wrongly? 13:10:09 <Belugas> wow... avec des accents en plus! 13:10:21 <krinn> the function answer bad result 13:10:24 <glx> Belugas: c'est facile pour lui :) 13:10:33 <krinn> saying a train cannot pull wood while it can 13:10:45 <glx> it uses newgrf data 13:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: this is basically a hint by the grf author how the engine *should* be used, not what it *can* be used for. 13:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: and the "note" in the docs is simply wrong 13:11:21 <planetmaker> it's a recommendation by the "game must simulate reality" newgrf authors 13:11:21 <krinn> I know something is wrong, trying to get what is wrong :) 13:11:50 <planetmaker> it's not a function which describes the vehicle properties, but the vehicle intention 13:12:06 <glx> an engine can always pull anything 13:12:11 <krinn> i see a kinda of "don't use TGV to pull wood FFS !" 13:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the grf says "this is a passenger engine", but does not enforce no non-passenger usage 13:12:38 <planetmaker> thus you can use your tgv to pull wood or ore 13:12:39 <glx> unless there's also attach callback 13:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: yes, that's exactly what it is 13:12:44 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yep it can, as HST do 13:12:51 <Belugas> hehe... therefor, it is a useless grf! 13:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: it can != it does 13:13:30 *** perk11 [~perk11@31.181.150.76] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:13:40 <planetmaker> its purpose is to tell the AI: "if you want to look good, don't pull wood with this engine" 13:13:53 <planetmaker> if you think profit is more important: ignore that advice 13:14:09 <krinn> and if you don't care about looking good: no answer could be get so ? 13:14:38 <planetmaker> that function is only about "looking good advice" 13:15:03 <planetmaker> your AI has to test itself what actually works 13:15:30 <krinn> i might look bitchy, but answer like that explain it all, while doc leave me in cloud 13:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: fix the docs 13:15:56 <planetmaker> ^ :-) 13:16:07 *** staNN [bc6f57fe@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:16:29 <krinn> looks like i'm the only one to fall on this kind of stuff :( 13:16:50 <JVassie> what might a collective word for empire, federation, state and republic be? 13:17:10 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@80.127.220.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:17:11 <krinn> country? 13:17:20 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:17:25 <JVassie> thinking bigger than that 13:17:35 <Markk> Union. 13:17:43 <krinn> alliance of 13:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: administrative unit 13:17:59 <JVassie> lol Eddi :p 13:18:05 <Markk> Das Reich. 13:18:09 <JVassie> doesnt exactly inspire confidence/authority 13:18:09 <Markk> There we go. 13:18:11 <Markk> :) 13:18:19 <planetmaker> authority? 13:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: of the words you gave, "state" doesn't really fit in 13:18:59 <JVassie> how so? 13:19:04 <planetmaker> nor nation actually 13:19:04 *** staN [bc6f57fe@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 13:19:13 <JVassie> didnt mention nation :p 13:19:23 <krinn> :D 13:19:27 <planetmaker> I know :-) 13:19:42 <JVassie> cant come up with anything thats 'bigger' than those 4 13:19:45 <planetmaker> But you're looking for synonyms. Excluding related words might help 13:20:01 <planetmaker> the milkyway :-P 13:20:04 <krinn> well, these words doesn't define a limit already 13:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: some kind of context might help 13:20:35 <JVassie> let me try to form a cohesive outline of the context 13:20:56 <JVassie> ill try to use generic words for it 13:21:04 <JVassie> a player in a game 13:21:16 <JVassie> controls a 'company' 13:21:18 <planetmaker> roams his realm ;-) 13:21:36 <JVassie> a company might belong to an 'alliance' 13:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> is it me or is the forum awfully unresponsive? 13:21:57 <planetmaker> "claim", JVassie? 13:22:02 <JVassie> a collection of alliances might be an empire/federation/republic/state 13:22:12 <planetmaker> it's you, Eddi|zuHause 13:22:21 <JVassie> each of those 4 is an example of ...? 13:22:24 <JVassie> file in the blank 13:22:26 <JVassie> (fill 13:22:41 <JVassie> names are interchangeable 13:22:50 <JVassie> company was a spur of the moment thing 13:22:53 <krinn> these doesn't gave a size clue, just how they are rules 13:23:06 <JVassie> but doesnt really fit into a 'space' theme 13:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i think that's kind of backwards... usually "states" form "alliances", not "alliances" form "states" 13:23:37 <JVassie> mmm i guess 13:24:04 <JVassie> state does kind of seem insignificant against republic/federation/empire 13:24:23 <krinn> i don't have the word, but i think you seek one that define commonwealth 13:25:07 <JVassie> well i have many other names of 'bodies' floating around in my head: syndicate, association, enterprise, partnership 13:25:15 <JVassie> corporation 13:25:38 <JVassie> conglomorate 13:25:43 <JVassie> organization 13:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you want to model, but "state" should be the lowest unit, "alliance"/"federation"/"empire" the higher unit 13:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (where each of the three has different organizational structure) 13:26:24 <krinn> they speak about framework 13:27:27 <JVassie> I guess im looking at a 3 or 4 four tier structure ranging from an individual (who is the owner/controller/overseer/whatever os his or her entity (account)) up to one of the 'big 3' i guess, federation, republic, empire 13:27:39 <JVassie> *three or four tier 13:28:25 <krinn> there's no word to define that imo, that's why commonweath was create 13:28:36 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if you think more about economy, then branch/company/corporation, if you think more about military then city/state/empire 13:28:52 <krinn> oh maybe, just realm ? 13:29:15 <krinn> realm can define even a new world 13:29:17 <JVassie> i think in the 'gaming' context, realm is on par with a specific server 13:29:23 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 13:29:24 <JVassie> and/or universe/world 13:29:44 <JVassie> hmm 13:30:23 <krinn> remind me d&d forgotten realm :p 13:30:43 <JVassie> synonyms for realm bring up: domain, dominion, kingdom, monarchy, neighbourhood, province, principality 13:30:50 <JVassie> region 13:30:59 <JVassie> territory 13:30:59 <krinn> dominion is perfect for space 13:31:06 <JVassie> mmm 13:31:17 <JVassie> a lot of these words dont really hold in a space theme 13:31:23 <JVassie> i mean neighborhood? :p 13:32:18 <krinn> A territory or sphere of influence or control; a realm. for dominion 13:32:51 <JVassie> thats brought up yet more synonyms.. 13:33:20 <JVassie> :p 13:33:27 <krinn> but dictionary put (1. rule; authority) should met your needs 13:33:28 <JVassie> maybe a forum post in off-topic 13:33:50 <JVassie> would faction cover empire/federation/republic? 13:34:02 <JVassie> or i guess depending on context, race might 13:34:21 <krinn> no faction could be inside an empire without been from that empire 13:34:46 <JVassie> sorry you lost me there 13:34:57 <krinn> mercenaries factions 13:35:09 <krinn> disidents could also be a faction 13:35:37 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@a80-127-220-162.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 13:37:32 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:37:38 <JVassie> think i shall take this to a forum post 13:37:42 <JVassie> will let you know when its up 13:37:47 <JVassie> and interestign discussion i think :P 13:37:55 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:38:05 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:38:52 <frosch123> oh, daily coop pingout again? 13:39:12 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:39:13 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i don't think this makes a lot of sense when you don't have a really formed out context yet 13:39:42 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:40:37 <JVassie> do you have any specific questions i coudl answer? 13:40:39 <JVassie> *could 13:40:42 <krinn> agree with Eddi|zuHause they can all define your word, depending on context (say economic, politic, religious or military) 13:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i mean if you're designing a game, you design the rules first, and then find names for them afterwards 13:41:52 <JVassie> i did get sidetrakced a little ill admit 13:42:09 <frosch123> hmm, there should be a newgrf spec to change the ranking names in the highscore 13:42:13 <JVassie> my original intention was just to find a collective name for empire/republic/federation/state 13:42:15 <JVassie> for the spec 13:42:18 <frosch123> "pope" might be interesting 13:42:34 <JVassie> as a 'tier above' what im terming alliance currently 13:42:58 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:43:17 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: and i was pointing out that there's quite some inconsistency in there 13:43:37 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:43:40 <JVassie> hmm 13:43:47 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:43:48 *** Yexo [~Yexo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:43:48 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:43:53 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: and this inconsistency can only be solved if you design it bottom-up 13:44:20 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and not "i need a new level, let's find a name for it" 13:44:25 <JVassie> so from largest -> smallest? 13:44:43 <krinn> the problem is most of them doesn't fit a "size" 13:45:06 <krinn> an empire could be from few people to a universe 13:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you make up the game rules first, with generic names "top level", "lowest level" etc., then you define rules for the game, and _then_ you pick names 13:45:46 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 13:46:28 <krinn> most game solve it with grades 13:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i mean you told us *absolutely nothing* about the game 13:46:57 <JVassie> wrong :p 13:47:11 <krinn> space is all we know 13:47:23 <JVassie> and that im aimign for 3 or 4 tiers 13:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> let me rephrase that: you told us *virtually nothing* about the game 13:47:25 <JVassie> *aiming 13:47:39 <JVassie> struggling to put what im thinking into words 13:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you have not answered my question about whether it would be economically-themed or military-themed 13:47:51 <krinn> just put numbers then 13:48:28 <JVassie> lets start from the top :p 13:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of interaction would be between the players? 13:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> within an alliance, between alliances? 13:48:52 <JVassie> economic and military interaction 13:48:55 <JVassie> both 13:49:54 <JVassie> a player belongs to a 'race' 13:50:52 <JVassie> but that doesn't prohibit/necessitate being in one of any of the tiers 13:50:56 <JVassie> if that makes sense? 13:51:13 <JVassie> so ill exclude political/religious from the list of interactions 13:51:18 <krinn> not really, your describe an alliance, like NATO 13:51:27 <JVassie> (at least at a player level) 13:51:54 <krinn> your allied or not, no level in between if you don't consider treators as a level :) 13:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: maybe you want separate hierarchies for the economical and military aspects 13:52:21 <JVassie> good idea 13:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can open trade relations without making a military commitment 13:52:58 <JVassie> how might that work in practice though? as militaryand economic aspects often are entwined 13:53:29 <JVassie> there is also wether a 'relationship' be it between players or between any tier of 'alliance' are enforcable or not 13:53:40 <JVassie> ie regulated by the game 13:53:54 <JVassie> if player a is allied to player b, can a still attack b 13:54:14 <JVassie> if alliance is allied to alliance b, can a still attack b 13:54:37 <glx> in real life that happens 13:54:48 <krinn> as long as A can attack B nothing prevent it 13:55:03 <krinn> alliance has been broken many times without a word 13:55:03 <glx> even if they are allied 13:55:26 <krinn> it was even use as tactical power 13:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that usually means that the alliance is immediately terminated ;) 13:55:36 <krinn> yes :D 13:55:52 <krinn> but the surpise/benefits from using it is already taken 13:55:57 <JVassie> unfortunately we come to a 'clashing' of terminology here 13:56:09 <JVassie> alliance being a collection of smaller entities 13:56:15 <JVassie> not a 'state' between seperate entities 13:56:21 <JVassie> gah ive done it again >.> 13:56:35 <JVassie> not a 'relationship status' between seperate entities 13:56:52 <krinn> nothing can prevent an alliance to broke, nor race, nor religion, and certainly not economic (that must be the main reason to broke it) 13:57:24 <JVassie> see above krinn :) 13:58:16 <JVassie> i think this begs the question, what could a tier 3 do, that a tier 2 couldnt 13:58:16 <krinn> alliance isn't define by size, 2 people could make one, or many countries, that's why i don't get what you're looking for 13:58:22 <JVassie> or a tier 4 do that a tier 3 couldnt 13:58:35 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:58:35 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:58:38 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 13:59:05 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:59:27 <JVassie> krinn, i dont mean alliance in the sense of war/nap/allies i mean it in the sense of a collection of players working choesively for some purpose (military and/or economical) 13:59:34 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: let's take medieval germany as an example. you have several individual units, usually lead by a lower nobility. then you have at the highest level the "king/emperor", who can lead wars, but the lower nobilities don't necessarily have to follow him. also you have economical unions like the "Hanse", which also has members outside the empire 14:00:06 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:00:34 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:00:34 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:00:47 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:11 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:14 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 14:01:41 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:41 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:41 *** Yexo [~Yexo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:01:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Yexo] by ChanServ 14:02:17 <JVassie> hmm 14:02:24 <JVassie> so mapping it across 14:02:28 <JVassie> a unit here is a player 14:02:42 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:02:46 <JVassie> is a lower nobility a person or a collection of people? 14:03:45 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a feudalism-oriented empire, then the player would be a noble person leading a small section of land, he can be promoted to higher nobility, which means he has several lower nobilities below him 14:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> feudalism usually means you have family-oriented alliance lines 14:04:49 <JVassie> right 14:05:30 <JVassie> need to map this to a space theme/context 14:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're the leader of the Habsburg family, you control like 1/3 of the entire empire directly through your family 14:05:47 <JVassie> :p 14:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and the rest indirectly because you are king 14:06:52 <JVassie> let me try to map it out then 14:07:00 <JVassie> a player controls one or more planets 14:13:11 <krinn> you can just map to mayor, president... that the same 14:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you are modeling a democracy-oriented federation, then you probably lose the family ties 14:13:11 <krinn> but this define a nation, not an alliance 14:13:11 <krinn> as even hambur prince mary french princess, france won't fall under hambur's reign 14:13:11 <krinn> france nation remain one, germany too 14:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "nation" didn't really exist in medieval times 14:13:11 <krinn> i think it was, just the main rule was, the bigger military rules you 14:13:11 <krinn> and as soon as military power decline, nation take again their freedom to become what they were before 14:13:11 <krinn> see england and rome, taking england doesn't gave you roman/english, just english under roman power 14:13:11 <krinn> so english under rome rules were still see them as english nation 14:13:11 <JVassie> a player might wish to work with one or more other players, wether for economic or military gain and form a 'tier1' collective 14:13:11 <JVassie> *tier2 14:13:11 <JVassie> sorry 14:13:11 <JVassie> this tier2 collective, might wish to come together with another tier2 collective, more likely for military gain, and form a tier 3 collective 14:13:11 <JVassie> does that make sense Eddi? 14:13:11 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: I think to start with at least there is no numerical need for a collection larger than a tier 3 I think 14:18:39 <krinn> imo there's no military alliance ever: only economic one 14:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "nation" (from french naître - being born) is a concept of modern times, where states control people with close ties (like a common language and culture) 14:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "nationalism" in germany was propagated especially under napoleon's rule 14:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the german empire of 1871 was the first to classify as a "nation state" in the traditional sense. germany thus was one of the last countries to pursue that concept 14:18:39 <JVassie> woah lag 14:18:39 <JVassie> im trying to keep it relatively simple krinn :p 14:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <krinn> see england and rome, taking england doesn't gave you roman/english, just english under roman power <-- there were no english in england while england was under roman rule. the anglos and saxons came to england after the romans left. 14:20:33 <JVassie> :p 14:20:38 <krinn> :D 14:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there were a bunch of celtic tribes, but "nation" is slightly overstated 14:21:45 <JVassie> krinn, why wouldnt there by a military gain for multiple players coming together 14:22:04 <JVassie> if there were a cluster of planets owned by a group of players collectively 14:22:16 <JVassie> a single player couldnt come along and take it by himself 14:23:28 <krinn> but it would attack for only the reason to own it : economical reason, not military one 14:24:03 <JVassie> attacking in itself is a military action though 14:24:05 <JVassie> though i agree 14:24:13 <JVassie> there isnt really such thing as a military gain 14:24:23 <JVassie> military is a means to an end 14:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "military is just economics by other means" :p 14:24:35 <JVassie> economic, political or religious 14:24:37 <krinn> see that: me & you make an alliance to military kick my neighbourg ass: it would be military only if you say, it's ok, i'll do it for free and don't want his land... even i'm not fear by him 14:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (slightly paraphrased :p) 14:24:50 <JVassie> heh Eddi :p 14:25:01 <JVassie> on the other hand 14:25:06 <JVassie> this is a game not real life 14:25:21 <JVassie> and the repurcussions of failing in a game arent quite as severe as on a real battlefield 14:25:22 <JVassie> hence 14:25:37 <JVassie> that givers a lot of players their love of attacking just for the fun of it 14:25:42 <JVassie> to prove they can win 14:26:00 <krinn> lol, because you think ones that decide to attack are the ones on the battlefield in real life ? 14:26:18 <JVassie> :s 14:26:40 <JVassie> i didnt allude to that at all 14:27:13 <krinn> repercussions for sarkozy batteling somewhere is not that severe for him : we will not kill him 14:27:22 <krinn> but our men are dying 14:27:26 <JVassie> your missing the point a little here ;) 14:27:42 <krinn> i know i know :) 14:28:26 <JVassie> unofrtunately i guess im a little undecided on a lot of the mechanics for the game 14:28:30 <JVassie> *unfortunately 14:29:00 <krinn> but in game it will be that way too: if it's last man standing, you will have military alliance indeed, but to achieve that, players will use their economic, so at end, it's again economical alliance 14:29:16 <JVassie> <JVassie> though i agree 14:29:16 <JVassie> <JVassie> there isnt really such thing as a military gain 14:29:23 <krinn> or your game gave 100 units to everyone, no ressource/money to create new one... 14:29:23 <JVassie> :) 14:29:55 <JVassie> in my game 14:30:04 <JVassie> the individual doesnt represent a single unit 14:30:10 <planetmaker> diplomacy ftw ;-) 14:30:14 <JVassie> it represents a 'commander', or essentially 14:30:20 <JVassie> the owner of one or more planets and everything on them 14:30:44 *** staNN [bc6f57fe@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:32:15 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:32:16 <krinn> someone must have said that war is also a diplomatic form :) 14:32:44 <planetmaker> isn't one the continuation of the other by different means? 14:34:35 <krinn> kinda yes 14:35:12 <krinn> as diplomacy is a prelude to war 14:36:10 <planetmaker> and vice versa ;-) 14:36:50 <krinn> except if you consider diplomacy after war the prelude to another one :P 14:37:19 <planetmaker> and thus the circle continues 14:38:04 <krinn> and never end, that's what i see on my tv each day ^^ 14:40:33 <JVassie> anyway :p 14:41:56 <krinn> this channel is so philosophic :D 14:44:31 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d823901.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:45:01 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@a80-127-220-162.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:16 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.27.99.41] has joined #openttd 14:56:23 <JVassie_> what did i miss? 14:56:39 <krinn> nothing 14:56:41 <Markk> Jupiter is not longer a planet. 14:56:56 <Markk> Your mom is now taking Jupiters place. 14:56:58 <Markk> :D 14:57:18 <JVassie_> gold * for you 14:57:37 <JVassie_> so yeah i guess krinn 14:57:54 <JVassie_> military action in this game would normally be for economic gain 14:58:12 <JVassie_> though not necessarily in the case of war 14:58:19 <JVassie_> thinking in the form of 'bashing' here 14:58:50 <planetmaker> luckily this is a military free game here ;-) 14:59:00 <planetmaker> except an occasional alien 14:59:22 <JVassie_> you missed the majority of the conversation i think planetmaker :p 14:59:45 <krinn> we don't have rockets, but i saw military act of war many times (ever build a rail in front of an ai/player station) 15:00:03 <JVassie_> Eddi|zuHause: happy with the definition of the tier system? 15:02:13 <JVassie_> krinn: you asked about numbers 15:02:27 <JVassie_> i will refer to these in terms of number of players (roughly of course) 15:02:36 <JVassie_> tier 1: 1 (a single player) 15:03:11 <JVassie_> tier 2: 1-100/1000 15:03:25 <JVassie_> tier 3: 1-1000/10000 15:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: what/how/where? 15:03:59 <JVassie_> there are ways the maximum numbers could be controlled 15:04:24 <JVassie_> Eddi|zuHause: re. my definitions of the tiers 15:04:32 <JVassie_> read up a ways 15:04:38 <JVassie_> im afraid i havent got the log 15:04:52 <krinn> well, why not then just use military ranks if it's military game? 15:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid it got kinda buried in the discussion 15:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> @logs 15:05:05 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd 15:05:09 <JVassie_> ah hah 15:05:10 <krinn> 1: a mercenary 2: a lieutnant, 3 : colonel... 15:05:13 <JVassie_> didnt know about logs :p 15:05:16 <JVassie_> krinn 15:05:17 <JVassie_> noooo 15:05:21 <JVassie_> doesnt work like that :p 15:05:38 <krinn> i think it doesn't work at all :) 15:06:02 <JVassie_> ok let me rephrase 15:06:18 <JVassie_> these tiers are varying degrees of collections of players 15:06:33 <JVassie_> surely you mustve played a game where players could join a guild 15:06:57 <krinn> yep 15:07:36 <krinn> and as usual they use military ranks :) 15:07:49 <JVassie_> im not talking about within the guild 15:07:59 <JVassie_> they can use whatever internal ranks they like 15:08:12 <krinn> (or some forms of rank base on race... trool>gobelin>flower>barbara streisand) 15:08:13 <JVassie_> what im trying to drive at is how to categorize these groups of players 15:08:28 <JVassie_> and/or name them 15:11:24 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:20 <krinn> i know, but it will be hard if you keep thinking about words that define no real limit 15:12:22 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.179.17] has joined #openttd 15:12:28 <krinn> a nation as no real size limit 15:12:46 <krinn> would be easier if you use words that have a somehow define limit 15:13:00 <JVassie_> ok image incoming 15:13:04 <JVassie_> krinn: http://www.jvassie.net/mmo/hierarchy.png 15:13:19 <krinn> tier1: primitive tier2: hut tier3: village tier4: town tier5: city tier6 country... 15:13:39 <JVassie_> a rough indication of scale of numbers im envisioing 15:13:51 <JVassie_> does that help somewhat? 15:14:54 <krinn> as i said: a nation (the word) could represent anyone from tier2-4 in your example 15:15:13 <JVassie_> ok 15:15:21 <JVassie_> now lets apply those numbers to a space theme 15:15:48 <JVassie_> a single player 15:15:53 <JVassie_> is the owner of one or more planets 15:15:54 <krinn> a ship, orbital station, town, city, federation 15:16:14 <JVassie_> call it a planetdom xD 15:16:24 <krinn> you don't really need to have a word that represent the number of players, but a word that represent a rank 15:17:08 <krinn> for people, no one will care your tier3 is city, they will just get easy that "city rank" is greater than "hut rank" and smaller than "nation rank" 15:17:35 <JVassie_> :p 15:17:56 <JVassie_> there needs to be some status involved with forming these tiers 15:17:59 <JVassie_> benefits 15:18:02 <JVassie_> drawbacks 15:18:05 <JVassie_> costs 15:18:13 <JVassie_> requirements etc 15:18:17 <JVassie_> bragging rights ofc ;) 15:18:47 <krinn> (and traitors!) 15:19:13 <JVassie_> anyway 15:19:24 <JVassie_> i cant really call them tier 0 thru tier 4 ingame ;p 15:19:41 <JVassie_> and ideally i would like there to be a choice of 'names' 15:19:57 <JVassie_> like for example a tier 4 is either a federation, an empire or a republic 15:20:00 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:20:13 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 15:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a matter of how you want to enforce your game rules 15:23:50 <JVassie_> pls expand 15:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like by joining a tier-0 alliance you will give up some control over your planet/city/whatever, but the extent of that control is given by the type of alliance 15:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> like an empire will have strong control by an individual player 15:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> a federation will have loose control 15:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and a republic something inbetween 15:25:53 <JVassie_> ok ill buy that 15:26:04 <krinn> about openttd: is there a way to add a label that is seen but have no purpose except showing infos in info.nut ? (if i need to explain an option i will run fast short of char space in the label of the option) 15:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i don't think so 15:27:11 <JVassie_> now i just need names ;) 15:28:10 <JVassie_> unfortunately it is hard 15:28:19 <JVassie_> as what do you call someone who controls multiple planets? 15:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> duchy/kingdom/empire/galactic empire 15:29:10 <krinn> emperor 15:29:18 <krinn> for an empire :p 15:29:22 <JVassie_> exactly 15:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> duke/king/emperor/galactic emperor 15:29:49 <JVassie_> what do you call a collection of empires/emperors? 15:30:07 <krinn> a non sense :) 15:30:29 <JVassie_> were not far enough into the future 15:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> county/province/republic/galactic republic 15:31:19 <JVassie_> province might work 15:31:25 <JVassie_> if it was geographical 15:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause> sherrif/governor/senator/galactic senator 15:31:46 <JVassie_> xD 15:31:52 <JVassie_> you know my next question? 15:32:02 <JVassie_> what do you call a group of republics? 15:32:03 <JVassie_> :/ 15:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> this is ordered smallest to largest 15:32:46 <krinn> "a shitload of badass" 15:33:27 <JVassie_> yep Eddi|zuHause 15:34:49 <JVassie_> so next up the scale? 15:35:30 <michi_cc> JVassie: What to call a group of republics is very much dependant on what the actual constituents of that group are. Are the acting members of that group republics or players? 15:36:09 <JVassie_> a republic is a collection of empires which are individual players 15:38:55 <michi_cc> And who/what has (on an abstract level) a voice in a group of republics? Is there one voice per republic or per empire? 15:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: a higher level alliance is always consisting of next-lower level constituencies. so a group of players choose to either form a duchy or a county, a group of duchies then can choose to form a kingdom, a group of counties can choose to form a province, a non-homogenous group of duchies and counties can form a confederation 15:39:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:40:05 <JVassie_> exactly Eddi|zuHause 15:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have: -/confederation/federation/galactic federation as the "inhomogenous" allances 15:40:12 <JVassie_> oh 15:40:15 <JVassie_> i see what your doing 15:40:26 <JVassie_> :) 15:40:41 <JVassie_> duchy/kingdom/empire/galactic empire 15:40:41 <JVassie_> county/province/republic/galactic republic 15:40:55 <JVassie_> confederation/federation/galactic federatio 15:41:08 <JVassie_> tier1/2/3/4 yeh? 15:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 15:41:23 <JVassie_> cept federation has only got 3 15:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense in the lowest level 15:42:03 <Eddi|zuHause> a kingdom can only consist of duchies 15:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> a province can only consist of counties 15:42:14 <JVassie_> can you substitue duchy for domain? 15:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> a confederation can consist of both counties and duchies 15:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (but has fewer benefits) 15:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: sounds odd... 15:43:18 <JVassie_> hmm 15:44:24 <JVassie_> the main problem is that the games singular player is by definition a controller of one or more planets 15:45:00 <JVassie_> alternatively 15:45:09 <JVassie_> i change that 15:45:52 <JVassie_> and a player only ever controls a single planet 15:46:06 <JVassie_> would that make defining names any easier? 15:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> may make the concept slightly clearer 15:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but it may work either way 15:47:18 <JVassie_> hmm 15:47:19 <JVassie_> difficult 15:47:36 <JVassie_> as one of the drivings concepts behind the game is taking the 'size' of it to the next level 15:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can control multiple planets, it may be possible that if you get elected county sherrif, you may give away control of your planets to concentrate on the job of controlling the county 15:48:32 <planetmaker> actually a game which fails to do so would result in micromanagement hassle 15:48:45 <JVassie_> perhaps a trip to the drawing board is required on that idea 15:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, as galactic emperor it might be too much of a hassle to also controll your tiny home planet 15:49:08 <JVassie_> planetmaker: depends what controlling the county actually consists of 15:49:50 *** welshdragoon [~welsh@client-86-31-222-122.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:49:51 <planetmaker> of course. But then another planet enters the arena. Or another.... etc :-) 15:50:15 <planetmaker> and you end up with setting the same thing N times on every planet. Boring 15:50:24 <JVassie_> :p 15:51:00 <planetmaker> managing a planet individually is only interesting if it's all you do 15:51:25 <JVassie_> yeah 15:51:29 <JVassie_> i see what you mean 15:51:32 <planetmaker> you might keep the option. But it needs tools or presets to ease the task 15:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: i was thinking the leader can give some basic goals (like a production queue, or fleet orders), and the individual planets may follow those orders or choose to override them 15:52:07 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.27.99.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:09 <planetmaker> enough games fail exactly on this point. They scale badly when the player gains power and influence 15:52:17 <JVassie> hmm 15:52:29 <planetmaker> i.e. the player is not offered the necessary sub-ordinates and consultants 15:52:49 <planetmaker> i.e. the tools don't grow with the player 15:52:56 <JVassie> see what you mean 15:53:07 <JVassie> though it does depends what 'managing the tier' entails really 15:53:11 <JVassie> as if its just decision making 15:53:18 <JVassie> strategic/tactical planning 15:54:22 <planetmaker> It doesn't really depend on that, IFF the player can gain influence over more "units" - whatever those units are, planets, single people... 15:54:51 <planetmaker> and iff he shall be allowed to increase his influence continuously 15:56:04 *** Bart_Honing [~Bart@8-79-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 15:56:12 *** welshdragon [~welsh@client-86-23-83-150.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:56:17 <JVassie> a leader is just the person everyone (in theory) elects to follow 15:56:31 <JVassie> so if the leader decides the collective will all send their units somewhere 15:56:35 <JVassie> the leader only has to say that 15:56:38 <JVassie> and move his own units 15:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so like the emperor controls his flagship and hopes that his kings follow it? 15:58:00 <JVassie> in essence i guess yes 15:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> without any way to influence/interfer? 15:58:30 <JVassie> hmm 15:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (that kinda makes the distinction between empire and republic irrelevant) 15:58:58 <JVassie> that would mean though that the 'boss' would control all of his underlings units 15:59:00 <planetmaker> :-) The decision where control is an interesting one. And crucial :-) 15:59:03 <JVassie> and give each of them nothing to do 15:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well. the emperor could concentrate on handling the fleet, while the kings concentrate on producing supplies 16:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or the empire concentrates on the strategy, the kings controll separate parts of the fleet to meet the strategy, and the dukes concentrate on supplies 16:01:10 <JVassie> that would still mean the dukes handing over control of their units to their king 16:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:01:26 <planetmaker> yes... it all depends on how many single ships the fleet has and how supplies are produced 16:01:51 *** TWerkhoven2 is now known as TWerkhoven 16:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> dukes would sign over more control to their king than sherrifs would to their governor 16:03:14 <JVassie> well in terms of a 'servers' lifetime 16:03:30 <JVassie> a duke would start with 0 ships 16:03:38 <JVassie> the first ship being a huge milestone 16:03:52 <JVassie> but as time progresses 16:04:11 <JVassie> it would go from 1, to 10s, to 100s, to 1000s, etc 16:04:39 <JVassie> there is in theory no limit, though limits could be imposed through means such as research, skills, technology or the like 16:04:48 <JVassie> or planetary capacity 16:04:49 <JVassie> etc 16:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> gtg 16:05:19 <JVassie> :( 16:06:00 *** BartHoning [~Bart@8-79-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 16:06:14 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:06:47 *** staN [~Miranda@p57AD2FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:06:53 *** Bart_Honing [~Bart@8-79-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has left #openttd [Leaving] 16:06:56 <JVassie> further thoughts planetmaker ? 16:07:48 <planetmaker> not at the moment 16:08:25 <planetmaker> and I'm not clear about the aim and setting, so... :-) 16:08:34 <JVassie> :) 16:08:42 <JVassie> im enjoying the discussion though 16:08:58 <JVassie> i always tend to think better during than a discussion than on my own 16:09:09 <JVassie> im not gifted very well in the imagination department :x 16:09:16 <planetmaker> that's the power of the collective 16:10:04 <planetmaker> it can help also to work out thoughts more clearly 16:10:37 <JVassie> :) 16:10:57 <JVassie> its an interesting concept 16:11:05 <JVassie> giving control of your units over to your leader 16:11:08 <JVassie> it belies trust 16:11:42 <JVassie> which is hopefully the reason you follow them 16:13:03 <planetmaker> trust usually has to be earned. 16:13:30 <planetmaker> and has to be of advantage somehow 16:14:04 <planetmaker> one way would be to give a bonus to multi-player armies in some way 16:14:21 *** welshdragoon is now known as welshdragon 16:14:22 <JVassie> you mean an army consisting of multiple players fleets 16:14:27 <planetmaker> yes 16:14:36 <JVassie> controlled by a single person i guess? 16:14:41 <planetmaker> yes 16:14:55 <JVassie> so a bonus for having a single leader 16:15:24 <planetmaker> yes 16:15:53 <JVassie> or alternatively/alongside a penalty for multi player fleets with multiple people 16:16:14 <planetmaker> like in vgaplanets it usually is advantageous if you have an ally and you can remote control his ships 16:16:50 <planetmaker> as you then have access to other ship designs and his racial ability and the advantage of having the units interact perfectly 16:17:07 <planetmaker> the latter is otherwise only possible by much e-mail exchange 16:19:12 <JVassie> hmm 16:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> <short intermezzo before i am really gone> imagine it like this: if you as a governor decide to join a republic, you sign an agreement that x% of your military budget (meaning ships and troops) is to be dedicated as "republican army", while the other y% you can control yourself as "national guard" 16:21:10 <JVassie> :) 16:21:14 <JVassie> i like that idea Eddi|zuHause 16:21:19 <JVassie> i suppose it also adds another dimension to the game 16:21:24 <JVassie> stops it being repetitive 16:21:50 <JVassie> though it might hard to give enough 'play time oppurtunity' for a commander or such, even if they have armies at their disposal 16:21:54 <JVassie> hmm 16:21:57 <JVassie> interesting 16:22:19 <JVassie> and i suppose x% and y% would be in a range determined by being in the empire or ferderation or republic chain? 16:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:23:01 <planetmaker> would make sense 16:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the republican army would then be used in global defense/conquering campaigns, and your national guard you can use to suppress piracy and uprisings (e.g. on formerly conquered planets) within your territory 16:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> a player who got his planet conquered may either choose to join the new empire, or control a rebellion 16:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> </intermezzo> 16:24:50 <JVassie> nice ideas 16:24:59 <JVassie> thanks :) 16:25:30 <JVassie> multiple planets per player might still work then 16:26:39 <JVassie> perhaps tied into what tier you have access to? ie your in a tier 1, which is in a tier 2, which is in a tier 3 would grant you x privilges, whilst also being in a tier 4 would grant you y and z too 16:26:58 <JVassie> though in this case, it gives you access to more planets 16:27:04 <JVassie> through fundng or some such 16:27:06 <JVassie> 8shrug* 16:27:20 <JVassie> perhaps the ability to 'colonise' a planet only rests with a tier 2 or higher authority 16:28:57 <JVassie> which again could be tied into sovereignty somehow 16:29:21 <JVassie> ie the 'ownership' of space not just planets 16:29:26 <JVassie> or systems of planets 16:33:47 <krinn> openttd: 1/ do rail station could have a different length ? (i mean half a tile per example) and 2/ what "size" a tile is ? 16:34:30 <planetmaker> tile is tile 16:34:42 <krinn> nah, wagon can be less than a tile :) 16:34:45 <planetmaker> stations are always quantized in tile lengths 16:34:47 <krinn> i mean that size 16:34:57 <krinn> ok so station is easy 16:35:13 <planetmaker> if you know about non-track tiles ;-) 16:35:36 <krinn> oh shit, what's taht ? 16:36:32 <krinn> i mean nobody could (or has made) a station with a half track somewhere in it (so i could assume station = tile*stationsize) 16:36:53 <planetmaker> yes. But you can't assume that every station tile has tracks 16:37:04 <krinn> and for vehicle, what length is ? a number of pixels? 16:37:11 <krinn> one has made rail station without tracks ? 16:37:23 <planetmaker> plenty. And no vehicle can drive there 16:37:32 <planetmaker> do you actually sometimes play the game? :-) 16:37:43 <JVassie> hahah 16:37:44 <krinn> that's newGRF station (i don't know any grf that have that) 16:37:52 <JVassie> :x 16:37:59 <JVassie> MBs newstatiosn was one of the first iirc 16:38:02 <JVassie> *newstations 16:38:02 <planetmaker> err... then you never used any station newgrf 16:38:09 <JVassie> *blink* 16:38:13 <JVassie> i hope hes joking 16:38:31 * krinn not newGRF fan, too much hard to use them with load that one first, not with that one... 16:39:23 <planetmaker> you tried the wrong newgrfs ;-) 16:39:45 <krinn> my last try (just now) was one UKRS2 + one that made wagons refitable, and openttd bail out, no matter the order of load 16:40:09 <planetmaker> ukrs2 makes wagons refittable on its own... 16:40:25 <krinn> but the other made default wagons refitable 16:40:35 <krinn> (and not with stupid prices ^^ ) 16:40:40 <planetmaker> and pikka requires to set some parameter so that his newgrfs work with other same-type newgrfs 16:40:44 <krinn> but it seems i cannot manage to have both load 16:40:55 <planetmaker> that's an intentional complication on his part 16:41:12 <krinn> must be why i can't play with them :) 16:41:15 <planetmaker> you can most probably. If you read the parameters of ukrs2 16:41:21 <planetmaker> and set the proper one 16:41:47 <krinn> using banana, downloading a newgrf to finally put my hands in grease to let it run ? nah 16:41:49 <planetmaker> give ogfx+trains a shot... no complications, it will on its part work with any ;-) 16:42:10 <krinn> will do, i need some to see AI running with them 16:42:37 <planetmaker> well, you obviously should get some first-hand experience of what newgrfs actually do... 16:42:46 <krinn> OpenGFX+Trains this one ? 16:42:52 <planetmaker> yeah 16:43:05 <planetmaker> it's default trains re-implemented and made refittable 16:43:34 <JVassie> need to summarise all those ideas now :x 16:43:35 <krinn> ah great, as long as i just have to add it and openttd won't complain, it's ok for me 16:43:51 <planetmaker> most newgrfs work that way: add and you're good 16:43:53 <krinn> planetmaker, about engine size? it's pixel ? 16:44:09 <planetmaker> add also chips and industrial stations renewal 16:44:26 <planetmaker> engine size... which size? 16:44:37 <planetmaker> probably you mean the one in 1/16 of a tile length 16:44:47 <krinn> engine size gave an engine size, but what size is that? 16:44:52 <krinn> oh 1/16 a tile 16:45:09 <planetmaker> default vehicles and engines are 8/16 16:45:12 <planetmaker> half a tile 16:45:29 <planetmaker> vehicles cannot be longer than 8/16. Granularity is 1/16 16:45:37 <krinn> if a train comes in a station too small, no loading may occur ? 16:46:00 <planetmaker> try it 16:46:02 <planetmaker> compare time 16:46:17 <krinn> just to know, i'm more woried about the train blocking station signal :) 16:46:34 <krinn> so i need to calc train length vs station length as i was thinking 16:47:50 <krinn> OpenGFX industries add newgrf or industries stuff (like milk...) ? 16:48:09 <krinn> just saw that one, looks fun 16:48:10 <planetmaker> newgrf and industry stuff are not mutually exclusive 16:48:31 <planetmaker> and no, it doesn't add new cargos. But it allows you to select industry chains from all climates 16:48:51 <planetmaker> i.e. you can have all industries concurrently 16:49:13 <krinn> like tropical sawmill or water 16:49:30 <krinn> i like that 17:11:17 <JVassie> <JVassie> planetmaker; have shared my current project ideas/features spec with you :) 17:11:17 <JVassie> <JVassie> (on googledocs) 17:11:25 <JVassie> dunno if you saw the query 17:12:05 <planetmaker> yes, I do. Thanks 17:36:21 <Belugas> that's what she said, 21 years ago 17:37:28 <andythenorth> canals above snowline show temperate sprites 17:38:02 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 17:38:31 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:39:13 <planetmaker> sounds like (new?)grf bug 17:40:04 <planetmaker> yes. Bug in ttd / openttd.grf 17:40:14 <andythenorth> yes 17:41:49 <planetmaker> @base 16 10 41 17:41:49 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 65 17:42:28 <JVassie> @base over 9000 17:42:28 <DorpsGek> JVassie: Error: 'over' is not a valid base. 17:43:17 <planetmaker> actually... it *always* shows temperate canals 17:43:38 <planetmaker> Did noone ever build canals with the TTD baseset? 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22855 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt greek.txt romanian.txt russian.txt): 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by kyrm 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic 17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf, perk11 17:49:35 <JVassie> lemme know your thoughts PM :) 17:50:35 <planetmaker> hm, /me wonders whether George has graphics for rivers for all terrain types and not only temperate 17:50:48 <planetmaker> errm... for canals. Not rivers 17:51:12 <frosch123> check ttdpatch base graphics 17:51:38 <frosch123> might be possible that ottd < 0.6 dropped the sprites of the other climates, since there was no action7 in the basegraphics 17:52:12 <planetmaker> hm... why has OpenTTD less? Yes, it'd require action7... actually also action2 in order to decide snow yes/no 17:52:22 <planetmaker> thus I ponder to add a new action5 17:52:38 <planetmaker> but wonder also whether that might be... over the top 17:52:46 <George> planetmaker: > me wonders whether George has graphics for canals for all terrain types and not only temperate 17:52:48 <George> Yes 17:52:53 *** macee [~macee@dsl54026CFE.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 17:52:55 <frosch123> why a new action5? there is action123 17:53:07 <planetmaker> frosch123: possibly not idea in base graphics? 17:53:17 <planetmaker> like openttd.grf 17:53:20 <frosch123> rivers do the same 17:53:28 <planetmaker> I know. 17:53:37 <planetmaker> ok, so we use that, I'm fine with it 17:53:44 <frosch123> and action7 is definitely fine 17:53:55 <planetmaker> yes, action7 is. 17:54:11 <planetmaker> George: do you have the canal sprites somewhere more convenient than in ttdpatch.grf? 17:54:55 <George> http://george.zernebok.net/temp/canalsw.grf ? 17:55:02 <George> Or you want PSD? 17:55:17 <planetmaker> I thought just about a graphics file, yes 17:55:31 <planetmaker> might be more conveniently arranged 17:55:48 <planetmaker> though... canals.grf might give me all offsets and stuff for free :-) 17:55:49 <Ammler> I would use the grf, else you need to code... 17:56:00 <planetmaker> and if you'd allow me to incorporate that in openttd.grf 17:56:47 <frosch123> planetmaker: ttdpbase graphics have canals for different climates 17:57:20 <planetmaker> you mean I should just copy that? :-) 17:57:23 <George> planetmaker: http://george.zernebok.net/temp/canals/ - is it what you want? 17:57:36 <planetmaker> yup :-) 17:58:23 <JVassie> lol dikes.psd 18:04:41 <planetmaker> George: the one in ttdpbase.grf are yours, too, right (they look the same)? 18:05:05 <planetmaker> then I might indeed just copy those and the related code... 18:05:15 <George> Yes 18:05:32 <planetmaker> thanks a lot :-) 18:06:39 <George> JVassie: dike = "ÐºÐ°ÐŒÐµÐœÐœÐ°Ñ ÐŸÐ³ÑаЎа" What's wrong? 18:06:55 <JVassie> english phrase ;) 18:06:57 <JVassie> for lesbian 18:07:35 <George> And how would you call stone wall? 18:07:45 <SmatZ> like, there's a stone wall between you and them? 18:07:55 <planetmaker> quay ? 18:08:01 <JVassie> stoen wall is a stone wall 18:08:04 <JVassie> *stone 18:08:08 <JVassie> cobbled wall maybe 18:08:11 <JVassie> *shrug* 18:08:37 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-154-80-124.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:08:40 <George> my vocabulary says it is dike 18:10:41 <frosch123> so do the grf specs 18:10:58 <George> quay - is a function. What the dike is used for. As I can understand the article in the dictionary 18:11:00 <frosch123> so i guess it is JVassie's fault of being a native speaker :p 18:11:07 <JVassie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dike 18:11:15 <JVassie> technically its Dyke for lesbian 18:12:52 <LordAro> evenings 18:13:37 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:14:05 <Wolf01> hello 18:14:11 <krinn> hi 18:15:24 <planetmaker> hi LordAro 18:15:27 <planetmaker> and hi Wolf01 18:15:52 <LordAro> hi planetmaker 18:16:41 <krinn> is a train engine a wagon ? 18:17:00 <planetmaker> the other way around would be more interesting :-) 18:17:13 <planetmaker> an engine is a wagon with power. technically 18:17:44 <krinn> french make the diff, locomotive vs wagons 18:26:50 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:30:08 *** Eliandor [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 18:30:11 <LordAro> no one want to comment on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4617 ? :P 18:31:22 <SmatZ> LordAro: I see the openttd icon in my KDE-based gentoo system 18:31:24 <krinn> it's a request for ubuntu, i have a dollar sign within an orange triangle here 18:31:42 <Eliandor> Eh, I guess using Visual C++ 2010 Express will work fine for contributing to OpenTTD as well, right? 18:32:02 <krinn> smatZ, gentoo rules ;) 18:32:20 <SmatZ> Eliandor: I guess so :) 18:32:23 <SmatZ> krinn: yeah :) 18:32:26 <LordAro> SmatZ: i do too for my own compiled versions, but not for the downloaded-from-openttd.org-versions 18:32:30 <Eliandor> Cheers SmatZ, I'll try that. 18:33:06 <Eliandor> I have to contribute to a community for my school + I've loved OpenTTD for a long time + I want to learn C++ (experienced in C#, PHP, Java) so this will be good :3 18:33:36 <Eliandor> I'll probably ask around what makes sense to help on though, heh. 18:33:41 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:34:21 <SmatZ> Eliandor: great :) 18:36:31 <planetmaker> the development forum is a good source of inspiration as is our bug tracker 18:37:00 <SmatZ> LordAro: I would test ubuntu binaries, but I am missing liblzma.* 18:37:07 <Eliandor> Alright planetmaker, I am on the forum / I do visit the bug tracker, but I just can't make sense yet of /how/ I should help (and on what branch... if any) 18:37:22 <krinn> Eliandor, hint hint ! look here : http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=56022&sid=fe162e4df163b74520bcee594b972522 18:37:30 <planetmaker> always work on trunk 18:37:35 <Eliandor> Alright 18:37:53 <Eliandor> I got to write a planning document for my school too, with a small outline of what I could do... I'll work on discovering that first XD 18:38:07 <Eliandor> Thanks krinn, I'm reading that stuff now :) 18:38:19 <planetmaker> my advise is also to use rather hg than svn as it nicer with patches and has the whole history, but that's a matter of taste mostly 18:38:32 <krinn> this is new feature, so i think it's easier to make your teeth on that 18:38:44 <Eliandor> Oh, right. I finally got used to SVN and GIT, but I guess learning HG won't be so new. 18:39:12 <Eliandor> That's great then krinn, I had been looking for a new thing in the trunk that I can work on (but I found that most dev was on patches/non-trunk stuff atm) 18:39:28 <planetmaker> newgrf stuff is... quite into the game core :-) 18:39:59 <Eliandor> Yea, I know that, but somehow I overlooked this post. ^.^% 18:40:49 <Eliandor> So is code written for the AIAirport API in the current nightlies? (so I don't have to check out something else?) 18:41:13 <krinn> i think this should be ask to zuu, i'm not sure he create a branch for that 18:41:17 <Eliandor> I also need to get used to working on projects where /a lot/ of others work on... ~_~" it used to be just me and my friend, even GIT sometimes was too much. 18:41:21 <Eliandor> Alright I will, thanks. 18:41:31 <krinn> and i think (current) code from zuu in within the forum thread 18:41:41 <planetmaker> Eliandor: what about drag&drop terraforming in the scenario editor? 18:41:42 <krinn> and i also think he is the only one working on that 18:42:22 <Eliandor> Okay, I got that as an option too planetmaker, I'm just writing down all kind of stuff now so I can read through it & decide on what to develop later 18:42:25 <planetmaker> or: giving money to other companies currently works only by giving it to players 18:42:36 <planetmaker> that's stupid. It's given to companies. Thus that interface could change 18:42:47 <Eliandor> Oh that's good too @_@"" heh. 18:43:10 <planetmaker> those are both small patches. But good to get into it 18:43:42 <krinn> lol i think Eliandor should take care of what "small patch" is for planetmaker 18:43:47 <planetmaker> or: from scenario editor: add a menu entry so that one can start the map from within as new game directly 18:43:47 *** welshdragon [~welsh@client-86-31-222-122.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:48 <Eliandor> The drag&drop thing sounds sort of big to me, but mostly because I wouldn't know where to drag it from (like the copy and paste thing?) 18:44:04 <Eliandor> Hah that last one sounds do-able 18:44:28 <planetmaker> the drag&drop exists ingame. But not in the scenario editor :-) 18:44:41 *** welshdragon [~welsh@client-86-31-222-122.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:45:08 <Eliandor> Oh, alright. Do you mean the lowering terrain by dragging? 18:45:12 <planetmaker> yes 18:45:17 <krinn> but planetmaker suggest involve yourself only, while my suggest involve zuu too, if he wish, might be better to start with someone working on it too (for advises, tests) 18:46:04 <Eliandor> Alright. I got all four of these suggestions now, I have to do like ~56 hours of work (at least) so I might end up doing more than one thing (depending on how easy/hard it is for me) 18:46:18 <Eliandor> Anyway I'm really charmed by the suggestions already, thanks again :3 18:46:26 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFFE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:47:12 <planetmaker> need another idea? ;-) 18:47:16 <LordAro> Eliandor: some advice: don't take on a project that you have no idea how to complete :) 18:47:26 * krinn is sure it wouldn't be a good idea to suggest opengl with collision detection 18:47:41 <Eliandor> planetmaker no I'll be fine for now, just gonna look around first 18:47:45 <planetmaker> add a cheat which allows deleting AI companies 18:47:48 <fjb> Moin 18:48:04 <krinn> lol planetmaker 18:48:06 <Eliandor> LordAro: the goal of this project is to get involved in a community + to learn C++ (for me), so I'll be fine. 18:48:11 <planetmaker> krinn: no, seriously 18:48:21 <krinn> hit reload? 18:48:23 <planetmaker> players cannot do that currently w/o console usage 18:48:28 <krinn> or you mean some kind of AI stop? 18:48:32 <planetmaker> that loads the same AI again 18:48:43 <planetmaker> yes. the cheat would exercise ai_stop 18:48:52 <krinn> well, i have implement the ai.stop but never seen it use yet 18:49:02 <Eliandor> Hehe, I wrote that down too :3 that sounds pretty easy too. 18:49:24 <planetmaker> not sure it's the easiest, though :-) 18:49:26 <Eliandor> Is there anything I should know about committing that kind of stuff? Do I just push it again (GIT speaking, don't know what it is in HG) 18:49:38 <planetmaker> easiest probably is the change of how money is transfered between companies 18:49:40 <Eliandor> I'll just try a few things out :) 18:49:49 <planetmaker> it's just GUI changes after all 18:49:52 <LordAro> Eliandor: that was my goal too... i think certain people are getting tired of me asking for help :L 18:50:19 <Eliandor> X-D 18:50:20 <krinn> hence the work with a co-pilot suggest 18:51:27 <LordAro> "Eliandor: some advice: don't take on a project that you have no idea how to complete :)" <-- refinement: don't take on a project that primarily involves the 2 aspects of coding you hate the most :) 18:51:29 <Eliandor> It's a good suggestion, I also prefer to work with someone (especially if it's on something new), but well, a few of these things don't sound too bad to do by myself... 18:51:44 <Eliandor> Haha, I love learning, does that count? 18:51:49 <LordAro> for me, chars and pointers 18:51:53 <Eliandor> Oh. 18:52:49 <devilsadvocate> chars are nice 18:52:51 <krinn> hating pointers and working with C is hmmmm, like hating flying for an aviator no? 18:52:53 <Eliandor> I don't really have something in coding I really don't like. Well. Except for being unable to extend a Singleton class (which is completely logical, but it's annoying). 18:52:55 <devilsadvocate> pointers too 18:53:03 <devilsadvocate> pointer arithmatic sucks 18:54:32 <Eliandor> So are the differences between HG, SVN and GIT so big that I shouldn't use GIT? 18:54:43 <pjpe> use whatever you want 18:54:46 <pjpe> it's not like it really matters 18:55:08 <planetmaker> it's about what you're comfortable with, indeed 18:55:12 <Eliandor> Okido 18:55:35 <planetmaker> but I learnt that when writing patches a distributed vcs is nicer 18:55:43 <planetmaker> I can change versions without server access 18:55:48 <devilsadvocate> unless what you're comfotable with is CVS 18:55:59 <devilsadvocate> or VSS 18:56:05 <krinn> and couldn't be resume to use 3 scripts, one to upload, one to commit and one to download (using hg or svn or git) no? 18:56:24 <pjpe> vss 18:56:27 <pjpe> is that the microsoft one? 18:56:31 <devilsadvocate> yeah 18:56:39 <pjpe> i think i've heard nothing but bad things about that 18:56:45 <pjpe> don't know who would use it 18:56:47 <devilsadvocate> its a nightmare 18:56:59 <devilsadvocate> that comes integrated with VS, iirc 18:58:00 <krinn> that's MS story (asp, ie javascript...) always redo like others, but just bad 18:58:44 <krinn> except maybe silverlight, but it would have been really hard to do worst than adobe 18:59:29 <michi_cc> Eliandor: Personally I use git for all my OpenTTD patches. Only SVN has the disadvantage that you can't create a patch series without additional tools. And frankly, most useful changes need a patch series instead of one big patch if it should be easy to understand and review. 19:00:00 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 19:00:06 <Eliandor> Thanks michi_cc, I am going to use git (because I sort of get how it works and am used to making small patch series) 19:00:26 <planetmaker> that's why I use hg ;-) 19:01:13 <Terkhen> yeah, if you are going to make lots of patches either one should be fine 19:01:42 <michi_cc> HG is preferred by some people because it's usage is more similar to SVN than git is, but if you already know git, there's no need to use HG instead. 19:02:25 <krinn> planetmaker, newgrf can change length by cargo type ? 19:02:43 <planetmaker> yes 19:03:03 <krinn> damnit! i should ask what they cannot do to bug me ! 19:03:42 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:03:53 <Eliandor> So, I'd use vs100.sln, right? (or is there another project file where the trunk is on?) 19:06:08 <michi_cc> I do wonder if HG is really easier though each time I read about too many heads or strange merges here or in associated channels :p 19:06:30 <michi_cc> Eliandor: You use the project file that corresponds to your visual studio version. vs100 is 2010. 19:06:54 <Eliandor> Oh, right. I thought it was version 1.x, fail. 19:06:59 <Eliandor> Alright that's great, thanks michi_cc 19:07:18 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d823901.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 19:07:28 <michi_cc> The trunk git repo is git://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.git 19:08:13 <glx> git on windows is dead slow 19:08:15 <planetmaker> and git needing packing and so on? 19:09:00 <Eliandor> Uh I got it cloned and everything in nearly no time glx (but I'm not sure whether that's the thing that is slow) 19:09:01 <michi_cc> I do have a git-svn clone of the whole OpenTTD repo (including all branches and tags) on my site at http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/svn_mirror.git, but for normal development the trunk clone is much preferred. 19:10:55 <michi_cc> planetmaker: git will automatically pack if needed. Manual packing is only required if you have special needs regarding disk space or high-performance hosting. 19:12:52 <Eliandor> Alright I'm going to make dinner, I'll be back later 19:13:05 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:30:11 <andythenorth> FIRS 0.7.0-beta1 released :) 19:30:24 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A02D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:54 <Ammler> #openttdcoop Bouncer fixed, no more mass parts/joins 19:32:44 *** macee [~macee@dsl54026CFE.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: macee] 19:33:35 <LordAro> Ammler: :O 19:33:38 <LordAro> ;P 19:36:09 * andythenorth does \o/ to other FIRS contributors 19:36:30 <andythenorth> quite an epic conversion to nml 19:36:42 <LordAro> well done, andythenorth :) 19:37:07 <Ammler> thanks LordAro for pushing me :-P 19:37:20 <LordAro> no problem :P 19:37:40 <Ammler> oh, and thanks ^Spike^ for helping me, but he doesn't 100% believe, it is fixed ;-) 19:38:42 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:38:58 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-211-38.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:43:09 <krinn> can newgrf change an engine size also by to whom it is attach? 19:43:29 <krinn> /s/attach/attach with 19:43:39 *** burtybob [5c08b10a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:43:51 <krinn> or "just" depending on cargo type 19:44:49 <burtybob> Why would I not be able to buy out a company in single player mode? (It's a save game from an multiplayer game) 19:44:51 <planetmaker> IIRC they can also change upon a certain wagon being attached 19:45:21 <krinn> what a hell of a feature :( 19:45:34 <planetmaker> at least wagons can depending on which engine they're attached to 19:45:56 <planetmaker> not entirely sure about the reverse, but good guess here is "anything goes" 19:46:12 <planetmaker> thus the only safe way is "build exactly what you want and check" 19:46:20 <krinn> it's impossible to play with that! 19:46:21 <planetmaker> it's what a player can do only, too 19:46:32 <planetmaker> no, you see the length of the resulting train 19:46:45 <planetmaker> but evil newgrf authors can make life a pain 19:46:50 <krinn> yeah, but what if i consider building its length before see it 19:46:56 <planetmaker> and specs are not really sane in each point 19:47:14 <planetmaker> krinn: buy engine, attach wagon one by one. Done 19:47:27 <planetmaker> sell last when you exceed size 19:47:41 <krinn> not if you're trying to balance wagons with two trains 19:47:52 <planetmaker> "balance"? 19:48:13 <krinn> train length too big: remove wagon and put it in another train: balancing 19:48:38 <planetmaker> nah. just sell it 19:49:06 <krinn> and then how i can guess where i should buy a new train? 19:49:17 <planetmaker> in the depot ;-) 19:49:33 <planetmaker> you see where trains are needed by station rating 19:49:45 <krinn> say i try to find how many wagons i could use because of station size i have 19:49:46 <planetmaker> if bad: add another train 19:49:55 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:17 <planetmaker> yes, and? 19:50:25 <planetmaker> buy a train of that length, done 19:50:39 <planetmaker> or slightly less. i.e. sell the last wagon, if longer 19:50:47 <krinn> but i would end with say a train with 5 wagons and one with 1 wagon 19:51:00 <krinn> while i'm trying to end with 2 trains with 3 wagons each (balancing) 19:51:08 <LordAro> burtybob: i believe there's a setting somewhere 19:51:19 *** macee [~macee@dsl54026C85.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 19:51:35 <planetmaker> krinn: just always buy full-length trains. done 19:51:50 <planetmaker> first buy one train. put it to service. 19:51:56 <planetmaker> add additional ones, if service is bad 19:52:05 <planetmaker> add another one always when service is bad 19:52:14 <planetmaker> (barring service is bad due to jams or alike 19:52:15 <planetmaker> ) 19:52:37 <krinn> but my service could be good while i still need some more trains 19:53:03 <krinn> if my train goes & get back fast he might not have enough wagons to handle the cargo but still servicing is good 19:53:30 <planetmaker> not really. if you can't handle cargo, your rating will drop 19:53:53 <krinn> not what i seen with big stations 19:54:15 <krinn> the station produce real more cargo than you can handle, but you have enough trains to keep your rating high 19:54:45 <planetmaker> then make your decision process a combi of rating and waiting cargo... 19:55:19 <krinn> hence why i want balance: having 2 trains with 3 wagons is not the same as 2 with 1 wagon & 5 wagons 19:55:31 <krinn> see what i mean 19:55:48 <planetmaker> I don't see the problem you have :-) 19:55:56 <krinn> ^^ 19:56:01 <planetmaker> you know your max train length. and you know your wagon number 19:56:06 <planetmaker> so... 19:56:19 <planetmaker> once you tested you also know how many wagons you can attach 19:56:27 <planetmaker> without exceeding your station length 19:57:12 <krinn> except if removing a wagon and adding it to the other engine change its length to something different 19:57:19 *** sla_ro|vista [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 19:57:25 <krinn> if i have two different engine puller 19:58:14 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:59:05 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:01:44 <planetmaker> well, yes 20:01:44 <planetmaker> but you always know your length and you know what you should not exceed and... a good guess is the wagon length won't change 20:02:42 <krinn> with newGRF good guess, looks like always endup with bad results 20:03:51 <krinn> but i suppose i could assume the lenght of a wagon, and put a raw cut for each train after all work is done, kinda rought 20:04:54 *** burtybob [5c08b10a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:05:21 *** macee [~macee@dsl54026C85.pool.t-online.hu] has left #openttd [] 20:06:07 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:19:00 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:27:04 <Eliandor> (slow) clap for me, I got everything to compile! =X 20:28:36 <krinn> first step to hell :) 20:28:42 <Eliandor> :) 20:28:51 <LordAro> bet it segfaults :P 20:28:53 <SmatZ> :D 20:29:10 <krinn> i bet on compile fail @ 99% 20:29:13 <Eliandor> I don't know... but I managed to generate a new game and build a train statinon so heh. :X 20:30:16 <Eliandor> I'm pretty happy though, as you said krinn, first step to hell. Now only to write a good plan first so my school agrees with this (they no doubt will though) 20:30:43 <planetmaker> what's the time frame for that project? 20:30:51 <Eliandor> 10 weeks 20:30:55 <Eliandor> 56 hours 20:30:59 <Eliandor> 2 ec 20:31:46 *** staN [~Miranda@p57AD2FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:03 <Eliandor> The only real assigment from school is to participate in any kind of open content community. If I wanted to I could count lamp posts in my city and place them on Open Street Map, that's fine too. 20:32:57 <krinn> wonder what they will say if you tell them you help anonymous guys 20:33:14 <LordAro> :) 20:33:20 <planetmaker> I don't think we're really anonymous 20:33:31 <andythenorth> good night 20:33:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 20:33:37 <krinn> not us :) anonymous the hacktivist 20:33:45 <Eliandor> Oh :') 20:33:51 <Eliandor> Hah, yea, I wonder too. 20:33:57 <planetmaker> :-P 20:34:02 <Eliandor> Well they need to approve your plan, so I guess they won't... 20:34:26 <krinn> but it meet your needs :) 20:34:30 <Eliandor> I'm gonna change my name here though so it's the same as on the forums >_> should've done that right away. 20:34:38 <frosch123> hmm, that school thingie sounds familiar. wasn't there a guy last year who wrote an ai for such a project? 20:34:46 <Eliandor> No, I'm not :) 20:34:50 <Eliandor> Oh 20:34:51 <Eliandor> Err. 20:34:55 <Eliandor> Lol, fail @ reading 20:35:02 <LordAro> frosch123: rocketAI? 20:35:11 <Eliandor> There might've been. I read about someone who researched train station placement, but that was over a year ago I think 20:35:20 <planetmaker> school projects are a recurrent pattern ;-) 20:35:22 <krinn> lol not me, or i miserably fail with the 50hours limit 20:35:31 *** Eliandor is now known as duizendnegen 20:36:07 <LordAro> duizendnegen: are you sure thats your name on the forums? i've never seen you before :P 20:36:16 <duizendnegen> Lol it's 1009 20:36:24 <duizendnegen> But it rejected that name here 20:36:31 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-250-245.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:36:38 <duizendnegen> I tent to use 1009 on English-speaking places to avoid confusion 20:36:48 <krinn> try 1OO9 :) 20:36:51 <duizendnegen> tend* 20:36:58 <duizendnegen> Err that might work 20:37:04 <duizendnegen> Nope. 20:37:09 <duizendnegen> Can't start with a number 20:37:14 <duizendnegen> And l009 is... meh. 20:37:17 <TWerkhoven[l]> first char cant be a number 20:37:17 <krinn> eheh lOO9 20:37:18 <TWerkhoven[l]> try i009 20:37:21 <duizendnegen> :D 20:37:23 <TWerkhoven[l]> or that 20:37:23 <krinn> leet 20:37:28 <duizendnegen> loog 20:37:35 <duizendnegen> loog is the new leet? 20:37:40 <planetmaker> quite 20:37:45 *** duizendnegen is now known as _1009 20:37:49 <_1009> Yep, this is fine. 20:38:23 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f51ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:14 <LordAro> still can't say i've seen you before :P 20:42:02 <_1009> Well it's not like I spammed the place 20:42:14 <_1009> I reviewed some AIs like two years ago 20:59:20 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:00:16 <Terkhen> good night 21:00:25 <krinn> night too 21:00:27 <_1009> G'night everyone. 21:00:33 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110811165603]] 21:01:04 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:38 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e091fee.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 21:05:19 <LordAro> night all 21:05:24 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-154-80-124.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:13:16 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-018-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:33:56 <Wolf01> 'night 21:33:59 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:37:05 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:42 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.99.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, google, i do not want to give you my phone number. 21:43:25 <krinn> trying phonesex Eddi|zuHause :) 21:46:45 * Eddi|zuHause does not want to know how you got that association 21:48:32 <krinn> :) 21:55:52 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 22:07:32 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 22:09:26 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:43 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:02 *** sla_ro|vista [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:38:29 *** burtybob [5c08b10a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:38:57 <burtybob> Why would I not be able to buy 100% of a company in single player? (It is a save game from a multiplayer game) 22:40:14 <pjpe> check the settings 22:44:23 *** user [~user@178.165.107.124] has joined #openttd 22:44:50 *** user is now known as Guest7778 22:44:58 <burtybob> I can buy up to and including 75% but I can't buy the last 25% it's greyed out 22:45:35 <Guest7778> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/bugb.png/ bug 22:46:06 <Sacro> bug? 22:47:58 <burtybob> It's only the companies that used to be run by players, however I already managed to buy one out :/ 22:51:42 <Ammler> you can only buy bankrupt companies, afaik 22:52:20 <pjpe> you used to be able to buy shares of company and then own them couldn't you 22:55:05 <burtybob> Yeah in single player you can buy out (aka buy 100%) the companys and I managed it with one ex player company and works fine on the AIs that start up 22:55:52 <burtybob> However I can't buy out explayer companies anymore 22:58:01 *** Guest7778 [~user@178.165.107.124] has quit [Quit: Ð£Ñ ÐŸÐ¶Ñ Ñ ÐŸÑ Ð²Ð°Ñ] 22:58:08 <pjpe> check under advanced settings 22:58:17 <pjpe> what does it say for the buying shares of companies 22:58:18 <pjpe> in the game 22:59:12 <burtybob> It's green and says ": On" 22:59:37 <pjpe> is there something about the max number of shares you can buy? 22:59:56 <burtybob> Not that I have ever seen or heard of 23:01:27 *** burtybob [5c08b10a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 23:03:56 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 23:04:28 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [] 23:11:05 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 23:12:59 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A02D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:16:41 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:19:16 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 23:20:21 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.179.17] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 23:21:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A02D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:31 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-037-154.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:57:10 *** PhoenixII [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]