Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:06:59 <EyeMWing> This should crash in interesting ways. 00:10:30 <pjpe> i've never noticed how cool the planes move in this game before 00:12:21 <Swissfan91> ohhhhh, Swissfan91 has updated his sprites. What? 00:12:30 <pjpe> who 00:13:31 <Swissfan91> when? 00:15:30 *** jerry [~jerry@c-24-9-36-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 00:15:47 <jerry> can't reach bananas 00:15:58 <jerry> ingame 00:17:09 <EyeMWing> Down for me as well. 00:20:24 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:39:38 *** zachanima [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:45:53 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 00:51:41 <Elukka> what the... 00:51:52 <Elukka> why does YACD force destinations for FIRS industries even if it's off for cargo? 00:53:00 <pjpe> perhaps it is a bug 00:53:23 <pjpe> what does it mean when my banana has a large black streak on the outside of the inside-the-skin part 00:54:20 <pjpe> apparently it means they're ripe 00:54:23 <pjpe> hope i don't die 00:54:54 <Elukka> i guess it's about time i try a game with cargo destinations for industries 01:00:16 <Elukka> yes the banana will viciously murder you 01:00:46 <pjpe> tell my wife 01:00:47 <pjpe> hello 01:01:52 <Elukka> did you know bananas are so radioactive they occasionally trip radiation alarms in ports 01:02:10 <pjpe> yes 01:02:13 <pjpe> i dod 01:02:17 <pjpe> i very much so knew that 01:02:21 <pjpe> don't you feel special now 01:03:40 <Elukka> very special 01:11:59 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C3BF.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:31 <Elukka> hmm... unforeseen downside to cargo destinations 01:27:43 <Elukka> it's extremely hard to get good ratings 01:32:23 <Elukka> how odd. CHIPS station pieces aren't working 01:32:29 <Elukka> trains just can't drive through them 01:33:40 <Elukka> hm. rebuilt the station and they can 01:40:38 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-013-067.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:44:52 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:12 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has joined #openttd 02:03:12 *** Vadtec_ [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has joined #openttd 02:03:22 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:03:22 *** Vadtec_ is now known as Vadtec 02:12:04 <EyeMWing> Wow. I've been hacking on this for like 2 hours and only just now got it to crash. I thought I was a much worse C++ developer than this. 02:23:56 *** jerry [~jerry@c-24-9-36-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:26:28 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-211-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:33 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-142-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:24:34 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:16:13 <Elukka> i lost a game of openttd 04:16:17 <Elukka> there's always a first i guess 04:16:36 <Elukka> starting year 1920, 2cc, YACD, they're evil 04:16:39 <Elukka> in a good way 04:27:23 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:34:51 <pjpe> what makes the cost of converting rail? 04:34:56 <pjpe> is it just the cost of laying the new type of rail? 04:35:02 <pjpe> or is it new cost - old track cost 04:37:55 <Elukka> 240 tonnes of wood en route to cottbus sawmill, wood trucks sitting in station, not loading... 04:38:39 <Elukka> seems like every time i add a vehicle to a route in YACD it kinda breaks 04:39:01 <pjpe> in cargodist you sometimes have to wait a while for goods to get loaded on to trains 04:39:09 <pjpe> i'm guessing it's something about having destinations 04:39:32 <Elukka> i'm having some trucks come and load and go just fine, yet others just don't do anything 04:40:02 <Elukka> oh, they do, they just take months to start loading... then months to get to 50%, then months to get to 100 04:40:56 <Elukka> maybe it doesn't like the fast forward button 04:51:24 <Elukka> that indeed seems to have been it 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B759BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75AC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:04:33 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 05:05:29 <Elukka> hm. or not. it just seems to take a lot of time for transport to work again after any changes to the network 05:13:05 <Elukka> George: is there any downside to refitting all buses to city transport in LV4? 05:22:30 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:43:02 <George> Elukka: the only profit for refitting is changing a capacity 05:43:33 <George> LV4 is done, and no more work is intended 05:43:44 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@02789b72.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 05:44:03 <George> In LV5 higher capacity would mean slower speed and higher running costs 05:46:17 <Elukka> i see 05:46:28 <Elukka> that would make sense 05:47:34 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: prussian compartment coaches seemed to vary quite a bit in length, do we want them all to be one length or vary? 05:47:48 <Elukka> i mean, all the 3 axle ones for example 05:50:04 <EyeMWing> 3-axle coaches sound like they'd be great fun in curves. 05:50:12 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@0278a82f.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:50:12 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 05:50:31 <Elukka> the center axle moved a bit sideways 05:50:33 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 05:51:20 <EyeMWing> Yay for pre-Germany German engineering complexity. 05:52:00 <Elukka> i seem to remember reading something about them removing the center axle of some coaches to no great loss in performance... 05:52:35 <Elukka> i don't really understand why they had 3 axles in the first place, or why the rebuilt wagons kept them 05:53:04 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 06:11:43 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 06:24:21 *** ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 06:28:12 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@02789b72.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:28:18 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:29:06 *** Progman [~progman@p57A199F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:30:05 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:32:08 *** TheHog [~TheHog@ergens.org] has left #openttd [] 06:47:12 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 06:47:19 *** ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ptr] 06:49:05 *** guru3 [~guru3@81-235-164-123-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:55:10 *** guru3 [~guru3@81-235-164-123-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 06:55:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:00:57 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-23.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:02:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:04:54 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:17:40 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 07:22:10 <appe> prussian sounds like dries up plums. 07:22:15 <appe> dried* 07:24:57 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-004-036.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:27:03 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db197e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:32:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:33:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:39:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:41:59 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:42:42 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has joined #openttd 07:42:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 07:50:17 <Terkhen> good morning 07:51:07 <Markk> Morning. 07:51:37 <planetmaker> moin 07:54:07 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 08:19:01 <EyeMWing> Is the stop/start callback called only in depot, or when out on the line? 08:19:17 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 08:22:27 <planetmaker> always 08:22:38 <planetmaker> iirc 08:23:09 <planetmaker> though thad'd be evil... 08:24:43 <EyeMWing> evil makes a good, clean-cut test case. 08:25:22 <EyeMWing> It doesn't seem to, though. Or at least I couldn't make it work. 08:25:41 <EyeMWing> well... 08:25:41 <EyeMWing> No 08:25:44 <EyeMWing> That's not quite right 08:28:28 <EyeMWing> yeah, I'm probably wrong. Was testing with a number that's out of range. 08:45:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:50:28 <planetmaker> btw, EyeMWing, e ddi is right when he says that 'regearing cargo is a failed idea' 08:50:40 <planetmaker> it gives problems in all kind of constellations. 08:50:57 <planetmaker> Vehicle sets simply should not mess with cargos. There's enough types of newgrfs which do that 08:51:35 <planetmaker> pikka also abandoned the idea of that cargo (and he introduced it iirc) 08:52:53 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:02:02 <EyeMWing> Yeah. I've got a generally workable solution for the immediate future. 09:03:48 <EyeMWing> Just use passengers and force capacity to 0 in the callback. 09:06:00 <EyeMWing> Results in some ugly UI, but it's fixable. 09:06:15 <b_jonas> you're implementing the bus from one of those films? if it stops, everyone dies? 09:07:30 <EyeMWing> A train that won't start facing uphill, actually. 09:09:13 <b_jonas> (like http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=643 ) 09:09:22 <b_jonas> EyeMWing: eww, that's evil 09:09:39 <b_jonas> I mean, stations are always flat 09:09:44 <b_jonas> so that happens only at signals, right? 09:10:38 <dihedral> greetings 09:11:12 <EyeMWing> Nah, it only gets called when you hit the start/stop button. And it's a patch test anyway, not for actual play. 09:11:42 <b_jonas> ah 09:11:53 <b_jonas> so it's not called when the train stops for traffic reasons? 09:13:29 <EyeMWing> As far as I'm aware, anyway. 09:13:47 <EyeMWing> I didn't exactly build any signals to test with. 09:20:10 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 09:44:50 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 09:46:54 <TrueBrain> NOTICE: OpenTTD Web Services will be temporary unreachable due to a kernel upgrade on the gateway. 09:47:40 <dihedral> \o/ 09:47:40 *** DorpsGek [~dorpsgek@178-33-38-239.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:35 <_1009> Development question, is it possible to remove widgets / re-add widgets in certain positions on the fly? (AI Debug GUI to add a Stop AI button) 09:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> _1009: widgets can be hidden and unhidden 09:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> _1009: not sure what you _actually_ want to know 09:50:07 <_1009> Eddi|zuHause: I've only been able to find Disabled / Enabled 09:50:40 <_1009> Well, I'm trying to create a cheat which stops an AI, so there is a button in the cheat GUI which enables you to stop an AI. If that one is enabled I want to show a button in the AI Debug GUI which says "Stop this AI" 09:51:01 <Yexo> _1009: the "break on" widget in the AI debug window are only shown when ai_developer_tools is on 09:51:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what about the stopai console command? 09:51:24 <_1009> Eddi|zuHause: that's what I'm trying to do in a GUI interface :) 09:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, then follow what yexo does. no need for a cheat 09:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> s/does/says/ 09:51:57 <Yexo> a cheat might be good in this case 09:52:51 <_1009> Hm, I'm going to try to find the "break on"-widget then. Thanks :) 09:53:27 <TrueBrain> all OpenTTD Web Services should be back; please let me know if there are any problems 09:54:35 <peter1138> yeah, there's a problem 09:55:12 <peter1138> i've not written road types/multistop docks/better landscapes/etc yet ;( 09:55:20 <planetmaker> yeah :-( 09:55:41 <planetmaker> we miss your patches 09:55:56 *** DorpsGek [~dorpsgek@178-33-38-239.ovh.net] has joined #openttd 09:56:00 *** mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ 09:56:45 <_1009> Is there some documentation available as to what planes do in GUIs? I see that that is the thing that is determining whether the Break On-button gets in or not 09:58:03 <planetmaker> the source is the best documentation you can get 09:58:07 <planetmaker> probably also the only one 09:58:17 <planetmaker> except the doxygen for the widget functions 09:58:24 <_1009> Okido 10:30:50 <_1009> Yexo, your hint about the "break on" widget has helped me a great deal, I got the hiding thing to work now, cheers :) 10:31:04 <Yexo> you're welcome :) 10:49:11 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [] 10:49:23 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 10:55:17 <SpComb> michi_cc's AAAA's not working 11:06:41 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-74-76.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 11:20:51 <_1009> I got everything of the Stop AI cheat working except redrawing the Window when the AI Cheat is pressed when the Window is still open... you have to re-open it to see the "Stop AI" button. Would this have to be added in OnPaint(){}? And if so, in what way? (I can't get it to work there) 11:25:52 <planetmaker> that works via invalidation by window class 11:26:14 <planetmaker> i.e. the cheat window would need to invalidate that AI window then 11:26:21 <planetmaker> or a change to that cheat rather 11:27:36 <planetmaker> SetWindowClassesDirty(WC_XXX) would need to be called there 11:27:51 <planetmaker> where WC_XXX is the window class of the AI window you're dealing with 11:28:04 <_1009> Ah, great. So, the Change Production Cheat invalidates the Industry GUI? 11:28:05 <planetmaker> and there is in the cheat window when that cheat is toggled 11:28:09 <planetmaker> yes 11:28:11 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-74-76.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:28:18 <_1009> Great, great, then I should have enough examples 11:28:41 <planetmaker> maybe you can also invalidate a single window, and not by class... 11:28:47 <planetmaker> dunno right now :-) 11:29:52 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:29:59 <planetmaker> maybe InvalidateWindowData(WC_XXX) is sufficient. 11:30:49 <_1009> I used InvalidateWindowClassesData(WC_AI_DEBUG); at the moment (taken from the Production cheat) 11:31:52 <_1009> I'll be back later and then I'll be finishing this thing @.@ 11:34:14 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 12:12:12 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 12:12:12 *** George is now known as Guest9974 12:12:13 *** George|2 is now known as George 12:16:39 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has joined #openttd 12:17:47 *** Guest9974 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:31:02 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 12:35:46 *** _1009 [~Eliandor@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 12:39:17 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:00:27 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:04:29 <_1009> Hm, I donÂŽt think IÂŽll be able to complete that cheat today. The invalidation message arrives at the AI GUI, but nothing is redrawn. 13:05:20 <planetmaker> Maybe it misses the method OnInvalidate() which ReInit() s the window 13:05:53 <_1009> It has OnInvalidate() where much other stuff happens, I havenÂŽt seen ReInit() in it though 13:06:20 <_1009> I thought marking the required widgets as dirty would be enough 13:08:51 <_1009> Hah... XD I shouldÂŽve said this earlier, because that was all that was required, ReInit. Cheers. :) 13:09:20 <planetmaker> :-) 13:13:01 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:13:06 <_1009> Alright... great. So what should I do now, update my version to trunk again, make a patch and post it somewhere on the forums? WhatÂŽs an appropriate approach? 13:13:17 <Belugas> hi 13:13:33 <peter1138> hi 13:16:38 <Yexo> update to latest trunk, create a patch and post it on bugs.openttd.org 13:17:05 <Yexo> posting to the forums is more useful if you want a lot of feedback from users, but that doesn't seem to be the case here 13:17:24 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 13:17:46 <_1009> Alright, thanks. 13:19:32 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:30:38 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:42:03 <_1009> Okido, posted it. Yay. :3 13:49:25 <Yexo> _1009: your diff is revered, that makes it a bit harder to read 13:49:56 <Yexo> CHT_STOP_AI, ///< Stop an AI. <- uses spaced for aligning the comment, not tabs 13:50:41 <_1009> Okay, I will 13:51:01 <_1009> What do you mean by revered? Is it caused by me using git or pressing the wrong buttons? 13:51:08 <planetmaker> reversed probably 13:51:26 <Yexo> the patch file has - in front of the lines you added and + for lines you removed instead of the other way around 13:51:52 <Yexo> it has nothing to do with git in itself 13:52:12 <Yexo> but you probably made diff between "working copy and tip" instead of between "tip and working copy" or something like that 13:53:17 <Yexo> I don't see the use for the variable show_stop_ai, you could as well use the result from isAIStopable() directly (you assign it twice and only use it directly after assignment) 13:54:39 <Yexo> also if you make stop_ai a cheat, perhaps the same should be done for "reload_ai"? 13:54:50 <Yexo> maybe with the exception that if an AI crashed you can reload it always 13:55:33 <Yexo> so enable the "reload_ai" button when one of these is true: "AI has crashed", "stop ai cheat is on", "ai_developer_tools is on" 13:55:44 <Yexo> and never hide that one, just disable it 13:56:35 <planetmaker> well... developer stuff is usually hidden when the developer tools are off 13:56:50 <Yexo> yes, but "reload_ai" is very valid for normal users when an AI crashes 13:56:58 <planetmaker> yes. And stop_ai? 13:57:16 <planetmaker> I agree with reload_ai 13:57:46 <Yexo> you mean "stop_ai" as alternative for "reload_ai" when an AI crashes? 13:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> why would a normal user need reload_ai? asides from AIs better not crashing, the game starts a new AI on that slot later automatically 13:58:14 <Yexo> hmm, true 13:58:29 <Yexo> drop the "AI has crashed" requirement then and hide it instead of disabling it 13:59:06 <planetmaker> hm... a new AI is not started automatically 13:59:13 <planetmaker> only if the company is removed after an AI crash 13:59:53 <planetmaker> hm... or is it restarted automatically with the same company... hm... 13:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i thought it removes the company automatically, just like going bankrupt 14:00:00 <Yexo> eddi: if the AI has build a profitable company it will take quite a long time for it to go bankrupt (if ever) 14:00:37 <Yexo> no, the same AI is started if you save/load the game, or a random one (or the same, depending on settings) is started after the company has gone bankrupt 14:01:13 <Yexo> however the save/load workaround might be good enough for normal users, in addition to the cheat 14:01:15 <_1009> Yexo, I see what I did wrong, I indeed did tip / working copy the wrong way around. 14:01:32 <Yexo> _1009: you can just leave out those arguments (just do "git diff") 14:01:42 <_1009> And I agree that the variable is not useful. Do you want me to change it or is it changed already? 14:01:51 <Markk> Is there any AI that doesn't build tracks with 90 degrees turns? 14:01:54 <Yexo> I haven't done anything, it's your diff 14:01:58 <_1009> Okido 14:02:04 <Yexo> Markk: AdmiralAI :) 14:02:18 <Markk> Neat, I'll check it out. :) 14:02:19 <Markk> Cheers. 14:02:20 <b_jonas> well, technically, there are AIs that don't build rail at all 14:02:37 <Yexo> Markk: there might be others, I don't know. That one is mine so I'm sure it doesn't 14:02:42 <planetmaker> I'd have bet other AIs who build rail also work without 90° 14:02:45 <_1009> I had trouble with the giff thing since I hadnÂŽt done that before, that causes the weirdness. 14:02:52 <Yexo> planetmaker: not all of them 14:03:01 <planetmaker> not all, for sure 14:03:44 <b_jonas> sometimes it's worth to build a 90 deg turn, like in places where the train is slowed down by some other factor anyway, or in tracks you want trains to avoid 14:04:18 <Yexo> I always play with 90 deg turns disabled 14:04:38 <Pinkbeast> God, yes, they look so horrible. 14:05:10 <b_jonas> can a train intersect itself in openttd without crashing? 14:05:20 <Pinkbeast> jonas> Yes, last I tried it 14:05:21 <_1009> SimpleAI doesnÂŽt build 90 deg turns either I think 14:05:44 <b_jonas> thanks 14:05:57 <Pinkbeast> I ain't promising that hasn't been fixed since, mind. 14:06:16 <Markk> Yexo: Okey :) 14:08:02 <Yexo> b_jonas: yes, it can. It takes too much time to check if a train intersects with itself so those cases are deliberately ignored 14:10:25 <Belugas> in fact, iirc, it's on the known bugs section of the read me 14:10:55 <b_jonas> I guess long trains make it especially difficult 14:12:57 <Yexo> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/known-bugs.txt#L329 14:14:42 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:21:52 <Yexo> CHT_STOP_AI, ///< Stop an AI <- still using tabs instead of spaces 14:22:27 <Yexo> + {SLE_BOOL, STR_CHEAT_STOP_AI, <- same for that line 14:22:50 <Yexo> the latter will also need some sort of savegame conversion code 14:26:50 <_1009> I thought SLE_BOOL was enough for savegame conversion already? 14:27:00 <Yexo> that line is only for the gui 14:27:12 <_1009> Alright, let me change the tabs anyway (I guess I forgot) 14:27:48 <Yexo> I think the only thing needed is to increase the savegame version by one (saveload/saveload.cpp) and to initialize the new cheat to zero for old savegames (saveload/afterload.cpp) 14:28:11 <Yexo> the latter can alternatively be done in saveload/cheat_sl.cpp (in Load_CHTS) 14:31:11 <_1009> Ah, I see. Heh, I didnÂŽt keep that into account at all. :) 14:34:10 <planetmaker> common oversight :-) 14:34:18 <planetmaker> Welcome to the world of backward compatibility ;-) 14:35:00 <_1009> Haha, yea, IÂŽm glad I get to experience that before I break some important stuff :) 14:39:57 <_1009> Loading a before-my-patch game though works completely fine... or can that be version-dependent/ 14:46:29 <__ln__> _1009: please use the correct apostrophe character. 14:47:11 <_1009> I wish I could easily, but I am currently using Pidgin and have not found yet how to. =< 14:48:29 <__ln__> it's on the keyboard. 14:49:21 <_1009> I am pressing it ÂŽÂŽÂŽÂŽ 14:49:48 <__ln__> that's the wrong button. now try the one next to the return (enter) key. 14:49:55 <_1009> ;-) 14:50:12 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:50:23 <_1009> Look. Next to my 1: `. Next to my return: ÂŽ. 14:51:01 <__ln__> your keyboard is ill and needs to see a doctor. 14:51:03 <planetmaker> __ln__, assumes a keyboard layout which you probably don't have ;-) 14:51:17 <_1009> ItÂŽs not my keyboard, itÂŽs this Pidgin text window 14:51:17 <_1009> Wait 14:51:18 *** _1009 [~Eliandor@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:32 <Yexo> wrong key? :p 14:51:37 <planetmaker> probably :-P 14:51:41 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 14:51:43 <_1009> In Chatzilla it's fine. 14:51:49 <planetmaker> is it? 14:51:59 <planetmaker> then it's the wrong programme ;-) 14:52:06 <_1009> I know 14:52:24 <_1009> I haven't been able to find it yet. 14:52:44 <TWerkhoven> what if you try alt-39 ? 14:52:59 <planetmaker> sounds very convenient way just to type "'" 14:53:21 <TWerkhoven> but if it works, maybe he can bind a key to do just that in pidgin 14:54:06 *** _1009 is now known as _1009-C 14:54:34 *** _1009 [~Eliandor@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 14:55:07 <_1009-C> alt-39 looks to come out empty 14:55:39 <_1009-C> I'll just try connecting with Chatzilla until I know what the problem is :< 14:56:25 *** _1009 [~Eliandor@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has left #openttd [] 14:56:38 * planetmaker feels that the problem was just totally exagerated 14:56:45 * _1009-C shrugs 14:57:09 <_1009-C> I wouldn't like to piss off members that don't have those weird apostrophes installed on their computer 14:58:28 <_1009-C> Anyway planetmaker, to me it doesn't seem like the new cheat can cause any issues with older saves... can you tell me why it can? And if it can, how do I circumvent it? I can add something to afterload.cpp but to me it's not clear /what/ to add 14:58:37 <planetmaker> it's not apostrophs, it's accents ;-) 14:59:33 <_1009-C> Eh. Right. 14:59:53 <planetmaker> _1009-C, the old savegames have a different cheat structure stored which misses the new variable. And it should be initialized to 'not used' when such savegame is loaded 15:00:14 <_1009-C> But it is not used by default, right? 15:00:28 <_1009-C> I mean, that's what happens when I load an old game for example 15:00:28 <planetmaker> so... what happens when I used it and then load an old savegame? 15:00:55 <_1009-C> Nothing. It just works, it's off and unused. 15:01:06 <_1009-C> Right? 15:01:08 <_1009-C> o_O 15:01:54 <_1009-C> I tested that before, I thought. let me try it again. 15:03:03 <_1009-C> Yea, that works without a problem. 15:04:10 <Yexo> ah, InitializeGame already sets every cheat to 0 15:04:17 <Yexo> so no conversion code needed in this case 15:04:57 <_1009-C> So this is rather an exception than a usual thing? 15:05:06 <Yexo> yes 15:05:18 <Yexo> if you create a savegame with your patch applied and try to load it in yesterdays nightly it won't load but instead say "invalid savegame" 15:05:35 <Yexo> by increasing the savegame version you'd get it to report "savegame made with newer version" instead 15:05:58 <_1009-C> Hm, I see. 15:06:25 <_1009-C> So, to wrap up, it's not needed to increase the savegame version because InitializeGame already sets everything to 0 at first? 15:07:01 <planetmaker> No :-). But you need to not take special care of it when loading old savegames 15:07:25 <planetmaker> i.e. conversion code is not needed. Savegame bunp is. 15:08:50 <_1009-C> OK. 15:12:00 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 15:15:54 <__ln__> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/kcx1t/foreigners_in_america_what_is_the_most_insane/ 15:24:10 <peter1138> heh 15:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "what language do you speak [in England]?" <-- the correct answer is: some mixture between french and german 15:29:48 <planetmaker> is that then a kind of endless circle if you define Dutch as a mixture betwwen German and English? 15:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, dutch is english when you leave out some of the french parts ;) 15:33:04 <planetmaker> neither English nor French are good at the ch-sounds ;-) 15:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> (of course there are feedback loops between languages) 15:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "I just got back to the US from studying in London for a year. Someone asked me if I was now fluent in french. How are you supposed to respond to that?" - "Non." 15:37:16 *** jo2k [~Jonny@mail.tconet.de] has joined #openttd 15:49:24 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-048-239.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 15:56:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.122] has joined #openttd 15:56:18 *** zachanima [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has joined #openttd 16:00:42 *** _1009-C is now known as _1009-AFK 16:04:53 <MNIM> Eddi: I beg to differ. 16:05:30 <MNIM> Dutch is *far* more resemblant to German than it is to English 16:07:23 <Rubidium> isn't English more from Frisian than Dutch (back in the days at least) 16:07:39 <TWerkhoven> yup 16:08:00 <MNIM> neither. 16:08:05 <MNIM> Actually 16:08:09 <TWerkhoven> original frisian rather than the current watered down stuff 16:08:22 <MNIM> English is more resembling to french and latin than it is to any germanic language 16:09:10 <Rubidium> in any case, they messed up words ;) 16:09:31 <MNIM> mostly because England and France have both been parts of eachother on multiple occasions before, while the Netherlands have only been occupied by Englishmen once during the Napoleonic wars. 16:10:01 <MNIM> a short-lived occupation of only a single dutch island, at that 16:10:29 <Rubidium> e.g. knight comes from the "knecht" (Dutch/German), but in Dutch/German it's the help of the knight, not the night itself 16:11:04 *** jo2k [~Jonny@mail.tconet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:12:30 <MNIM> hehehe 16:12:41 <MNIM> you call a knave what we call a knecht 16:14:54 <Rubidium> in Dutch/German knight => ridder/ritter 16:16:34 <MNIM> which means 'rider' 16:16:47 <MNIM> as does the french 'cavalier' 16:18:03 <__ln__> with all these strange languages around the continent, it's quite a luck that all the space aliens chose to speak english. 16:19:36 <Rubidium> I doubt that 16:19:43 <Rubidium> that ridder means rider 16:20:11 <MNIM> it does. 16:20:13 <Rubidium> in Dutch someone who rides a horse is a (paard)rijder 16:20:53 <Yexo> "ridder" means "knight" or equivalent, not "rider" 16:21:19 <MNIM> I should rephrase my words. 16:21:22 <Yexo> "rider" could maybe be translated with "ruiter"? 16:21:51 <MNIM> it's etymological origin comes from rider 16:22:15 <MNIM> Yexo: true. 16:22:15 <__ln__> "paard" is horse? ... then "luipaard" is what sort of horse? 16:22:29 <Yexo> that I don't doubt 16:22:30 <MNIM> a cheetah, actually. 16:22:39 <Yexo> __ln__: "lui" means "lazy" 16:22:43 <Yexo> so a lazy horse ;) 16:22:50 *** nunatak [~nunatak@xdsl-87-79-163-113.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 16:22:55 <__ln__> it doesn't look much like a horse though :) 16:23:00 <MNIM> quite probably caused by that it is both faster than a hourse, yet it mostly lays around all day 16:23:30 <MNIM> same like a bike is called an 'iron horse' - yet it looks nothing like one. 16:23:50 * __ln__ checks the OED to see where does the english word come from 16:23:59 <MNIM> anyway 16:24:11 <MNIM> 'leopard' remind you of anything? 16:24:41 <MNIM> these words are quite likely related, though I can't tell you whether the chicken or the egg came first 16:24:41 <Yexo> MNIM: "iron horse" for bike? I've only heard it used as synonym for a train engine 16:24:53 <__ln__> MNIM: yes, it reminds me of a Mac OS X version. 16:25:04 <planetmaker> in German we have a "Drahtesel", Yexo :-) 16:25:18 <planetmaker> Which is a joking synonymous for bike 16:25:28 <planetmaker> (wire-donkey) 16:26:03 <__ln__> Etymology: Middle English leopard, also lebard, lubard, leupard, etc., < Old French leopard, lebard, leupard, etc. (modern French léopard), < late Latin leopardus ( Hist. Aug.), < late Greek λεÏÏαÏÎŽÎ¿Ï (S. Ignat., Galen), also λεοΜÏÏÏαÏÎŽÎ¿Ï (and λεοΜÏοÏάÏΎαλοÏ, ? 4th cent.), < λεοΜÏ-, λÎÏÎœlion n. + ÏάÏΎοÏpard n.1 16:26:04 <MNIM> yexo: it used to occupy the same niche In traffic as a horse for ages 16:26:05 <Yexo> didn't know that one :) 16:26:47 <MNIM> as they have about the same speed and loading capacity, for about the same price (back then) 16:27:16 <__ln__> "The animal originally so named was supposed to be a hybrid between lion and âpardâ: compare Plin. N.H. viii. xvii, â[Leones] quos pardi generavereâ." 16:27:19 <MNIM> well, horses cost more and carry more, but they were employed by the same people 16:28:03 <MNIM> the baker had a horse with a carriage to bring the bread to your door, or he had a three-wheeled 'bakfiets' 16:29:02 <MNIM> (backfiets: a bike with the front-end replaced with two wheels on an axle and an open box (bak) on it 16:29:09 <MNIM> *bakfiets 16:29:40 <MNIM> http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/workcycles-classic-bakfiets.jpg 16:29:57 <MNIM> my niece just married in one of those just last weekend. :P 16:30:36 <MNIM> though apparently it got upgraded to a Mercedes SLK sometime during the ceremony. :P 16:30:49 <MNIM> guess the newly-married groom got tired of pedaling. 16:30:52 <MNIM> hmmmh 16:31:50 <MNIM> that's an idea for a small capacity OTTD vehicle 16:32:22 <MNIM> carrier bikes and rickshaws 16:32:46 <MNIM> well, for the 1850-1940 era 16:39:55 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@02789b72.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:43:04 *** _1009-AFK is now known as _1009 16:45:15 <_1009> That's a cute idea MNIM 16:47:51 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:21ea:a24d:cb46:c0e5] has joined #openttd 16:47:54 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:48:21 <b_jonas> and a Swiss military version too that has larger capacity and gets a bonus for going up mountains 16:49:59 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-048-239.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 16:49:59 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-24.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:28 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-21-144.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 16:55:27 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:57:28 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:02:43 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff7ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> with all these strange languages around the continent, it's quite a luck that all the space aliens chose to speak english. <-- what? all space aliens i ever saw spoke german. 17:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <Yexo> __ln__: "lui" means "lazy" <-- i have a feeling in this case it's derived from "Lion" (Leo) 17:27:55 <Terkhen> heh 17:28:51 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/lui3 (if you know some dutch) 17:29:52 <valhallasw> no links to lion though :-) 17:31:31 <__ln__> "Onl. alleen het simplex pardo âluipaardâ in ther sint leuwon legor ande pardon holer âdaar zijn legers van leeuwen en holen van luipaardenâ" 17:32:35 <__ln__> (from the obvious other page) 17:33:12 <valhallasw> oh, wait, I should have highlighted you. *slaps himself* 17:33:35 <TrueBrain> do you guys ever talk about OpenTTD? Sjeesss... 17:33:57 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:33:57 <planetmaker> wait... what's that? 17:34:03 <PeanutHorst> so tempted to create my own NewGRF ... 17:34:04 <TrueBrain> I am not 100% sure 17:34:19 <PeanutHorst> but i want to make it compatible with the 32bpp patches 17:34:26 <planetmaker> ah, ok... so... some dream phantasy? 17:34:28 <PeanutHorst> / extra zoom-level 17:34:39 <planetmaker> then do so, PeanutHorst 17:34:40 <TrueBrain> most likely 17:34:57 <valhallasw> http://www.etymologiebank.nl/zoeken/openttd, TrueBrain, no clue what it is. 17:34:58 <PeanutHorst> planetmaker: is this a real game, is it dream phantasy(sic) 17:35:18 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: and if that site doesnt have it, it doesn't exist 17:35:37 <valhallasw> Of course! 17:36:00 <planetmaker> not on google == not existent, right? 17:36:14 <planetmaker> or is there more to the world? 17:36:25 <TrueBrain> when I shut down my computer, the world stops 17:36:27 <TrueBrain> so no 17:36:47 <planetmaker> ok. Seems so then. Just keep it running, or we're all doomed! 17:36:48 <planetmaker> ;;-) 17:36:54 <valhallasw> Then, let me give you a relevant piece of music 17:36:56 <valhallasw> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ#t=5s 17:37:46 <__ln__> maybe there should be #openttd-openttd, which would be a place to speaek about OpenTTD. 17:37:54 <__ln__> -e 17:38:04 <TrueBrain> I can also just kcik everyone who doesn't talk about OpenTTD 17:38:04 <planetmaker> well, we all know this is the new #tycoon ;-) 17:38:06 <TrueBrain> much more fun for me :D 17:38:11 <valhallasw> __ln__: or we could use that channel to discuss what we should discuss here! 17:38:12 <planetmaker> We simply forgot to send people there ;-) 17:43:07 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 17:43:09 *** jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-223-183-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22928 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt slovak.txt slovenian.txt): 17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 changes by IPG 17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 110 changes by klingacik 17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovenian - 26 changes by Necrolyte 17:46:01 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 17:47:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22929 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt: -Fix (r22929): WT3 validation failure 17:49:03 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:53:36 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.233.237.150] has joined #openttd 17:54:18 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-123-30.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 17:54:22 <Wolf01> hello 17:55:24 *** TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:00:12 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:31 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 18:05:36 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:07:33 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:14:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:15:06 <Hirundo> r22929 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt: -Fix (r22929): WT3 validation failure <- recursive fixes :o 18:18:46 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 18:21:15 <KingJ> Have tunnels gained a speed penalty recently, or is this just something to do with the 2cc trainset? 18:28:01 <andythenorth> hello 18:28:40 <planetmaker> KingJ: they did gain a power penalty 18:28:48 <planetmaker> (more airdrag) 18:28:51 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth 18:30:12 <andythenorth> what ho 18:31:48 * andythenorth should do some FIRS or such 18:32:20 <Elukka> do YACD, FIRS, and 2cc and actually go bankrupt 18:32:30 <Elukka> oh as in do it. 18:32:35 <Elukka> even better 18:33:19 <KingJ> planetmaker: aha, that explains. Thanks! 18:34:55 <planetmaker> KingJ: take a strong enough engine and you won't feel it :-) 18:41:06 *** nunatak [~nunatak@xdsl-87-79-163-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:28 *** Maarten [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 18:49:20 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@2a01:270:dd00:7701:1337:1337:1337:1337] has joined #openttd 18:53:34 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has joined #openttd 19:19:39 <andythenorth> any ponies? 19:20:13 <V453000> mooo 19:21:20 <andythenorth> hmm 19:21:23 <andythenorth> wrong noise 19:21:27 <andythenorth> did I mention... 19:22:31 <V453000> :P 19:22:33 <V453000> by the way 19:22:38 <V453000> what colour would barrels be 19:23:15 <andythenorth> cc 19:23:32 <Elukka> there are no ponies 19:23:38 <Elukka> this has been declared a no-pony zone 19:23:58 * andythenorth has seen ponies here 19:24:21 <appe> ponie grf, puh-leaze. 19:24:38 * Elukka explodes 19:26:16 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 19:31:30 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-37-205.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:33:51 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 19:33:55 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 19:35:16 <Swissfan91> hello all. I'm thinking of drawing some sprites for a pedestrianised street, probably just as a newobject for now. Does anyone know how I make it so you can keep clicking on the tile and people appear in random places? Similar to how DWE stations has cargo containers that appear randomly the more you click. 19:37:36 <frosch123> objects have random bits which you can use 19:37:45 <frosch123> they are randomised whenever the object is build 19:38:33 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:38:36 <frosch123> there is no such thing as counting how often something is build on a tile 19:38:47 <frosch123> that is, not for stations either 19:40:27 <Swissfan91> so, it is just a coding technique? 19:40:55 <EyeMWing> Yeah, just pick random variations on the graphics instead of defining a static one. 19:40:56 <Elukka> andythenorth: have you ever tried FIRS with YACD? 19:41:01 <frosch123> you draw different sprites 19:41:08 <frosch123> later you select one of them randomly 19:41:11 <Elukka> YACD can't seen to differentiate what is cargo and what is passengers/mail 19:41:16 <andythenorth> Elukka: yes, I've tried it a lot 19:41:18 <frosch123> you can also combine one sprite from several 19:41:18 <Elukka> it will always give destinations for everything regardless of the settings 19:41:36 <andythenorth> I haven't tried it with any setting except 'destinations for everything' 19:41:37 <andythenorth> :P 19:41:42 <Swissfan91> Ah ok, thanks guys. 19:41:47 <EyeMWing> A pedestrianized street in a game about efficient transport is a delightfully sadistic idea, too. 19:41:55 *** lolman [~john@188-220-249-104.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:41:56 <frosch123> so if you have some variety in different places, you do not have to draw all combinations of those 19:42:01 <Elukka> well, it'd be nice to be able to toggle it 19:42:03 <frosch123> but they can be composed at runtime 19:42:09 <Elukka> i don't know if it's a problem in YACD or FIRS though 19:42:39 <andythenorth> I wouldn't rule out a bug in FIRS 19:42:46 <andythenorth> but more likely a YACD issue 19:42:48 <Swissfan91> are 2x2 buildings allowed ? :P 19:42:53 <andythenorth> Swissfan91: yes 19:43:07 <frosch123> objects can be of size up to 16x16 19:43:08 <planetmaker> EyeMWing: search in google the route from Paris to NewYork ;-) 19:43:12 <planetmaker> that is sadistic ;-) 19:43:13 <frosch123> but they are bulldozes at a whole 19:43:26 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: yes 19:43:39 <Swissfan91> sorry. I mean, in a town set. Not as a newobject now. 19:43:41 <frosch123> if they shall be removable as single tiles, they must be build as single tiles as well 19:43:52 <andythenorth> houses can be 2x2, e.g. supermarket, stadium 19:43:54 <frosch123> houses are limited to 2x2 19:44:06 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: if you say 'building' it implies 'town house' 19:44:20 <planetmaker> you should just play the game... ;-) 19:44:30 <planetmaker> then that question is answered very quickly :-P 19:44:51 <Swissfan91> sorry yeah. mind blank :) 19:45:03 <Swissfan91> @frosch123 - what do you mean? 19:45:37 *** Ruben_ [~5b5786d1@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:45:41 <frosch123> where? 19:46:49 <Swissfan91> were you talking about newobjects when you said about removing single tiles? 19:47:15 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-80-217.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:47:25 <frosch123> yes 19:47:35 <frosch123> objects are removed in a whole 19:47:47 <Elukka> okay the YACd toggles don't work for ECS either, i guess it's YACD that's the problem 19:47:49 <frosch123> they are not like fileds 19:47:52 <frosch123> *fields 19:48:00 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-21-144.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:48:01 <frosch123> where you can remove single tiles 19:48:08 <frosch123> without clearing the whole field 19:48:16 <Swissfan91> I see. So my newobject Cable Car station, which is 2x2, will cause a problem? 19:48:29 <frosch123> no 19:48:42 <frosch123> but if you make a object for a 1x5 road 19:48:51 <frosch123> you can only remove the whole 1x5 road 19:49:56 <Swissfan91> I see. I was thinking of making a blank road tile, and then 5 or 6 with pedestrians in different places. Is that the best way to do it? 19:50:24 <frosch123> take a look at the "company land" object in opengfx+landscape 19:53:06 <planetmaker> ingame it's meanwhile called 'fenced land' ;-) 19:53:19 <planetmaker> I found 'company land' too confusing 19:53:41 <andythenorth> hmm 19:53:44 <andythenorth> newgrf-fields 19:53:53 <andythenorth> a project abandoned for good reason :) 19:54:03 <planetmaker> good? ;-) 19:54:14 <planetmaker> or rather... abandoned? 19:54:18 <andythenorth> ask frosch123 19:54:37 <frosch123> it was definitely coded the wrong way :p 19:54:50 <planetmaker> I know that it was ... put on the shelf. But the feature I think is not 'abandoned' 19:54:55 <planetmaker> just one implementation 19:55:07 <planetmaker> s/abandoned/rejected/ 19:55:14 <frosch123> we need some solution for irregular and draggable objects 19:55:20 <planetmaker> yup 19:56:48 <Ruben_> Hi guys. I have a problem starting a multiplayer game. I'm on version 1.1.2, but each time I hit the 'find server' button, it freezes the game. 19:57:02 <Ruben_> Anyone know a solution/can help me? 19:57:21 <planetmaker> a bit more patience? 19:57:38 <Ruben_> Well, the game freezes and shows 'Not responding'... 19:57:47 <frosch123> when was the windows issue wrt. name resolving fixed? 19:58:03 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:58:07 <Ruben_> So I guess that will take a lot of patience :) 19:58:26 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-048-239.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 19:58:45 <frosch123> it was fixed in 1.1.2 :p 19:59:04 *** jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-223-183-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: jo2k] 19:59:56 <planetmaker> Ruben_: and your port 3979 is free and not blocked by antivirus etc? 20:00:13 <planetmaker> or in the router or whereever 20:00:24 <andythenorth> would fields be similar to objects, except created by an industry, and over-buildable by anyone? 20:00:36 <Ruben_> Let me check planetmaker 20:00:40 <planetmaker> I'd imagine that be the case, andythenorth 20:01:22 <andythenorth> hmm 20:01:39 <andythenorth> newobjects were not existing when fields were tested 20:01:39 <planetmaker> though one can certainly envision some flags for fields which make killing them subject to conditions 20:01:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess today it would be an extention to objects 20:02:07 <frosch123> i.e. add the field-specific stuff to objects 20:02:14 <frosch123> and let industries build objects 20:02:53 <frosch123> though i wonder when we will run out of object ids :p 20:03:18 <Rubidium> before NFOv8 20:03:36 <frosch123> Rubidium: i mean the limitation of m2 20:03:38 *** LordAro [569cebe0@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:03:42 <frosch123> 64000 per map 20:04:03 <LordAro> evenings 20:04:12 <frosch123> it you have 1000 farms, and each plant 64 fields :p 20:04:33 <frosch123> you can run out of objects already today 20:04:43 <frosch123> just build a 256x256 area of "fenced land" :p 20:04:48 <planetmaker> hi LordAro 20:05:32 <LordAro> hi planetmaker 20:05:43 <planetmaker> frosch123: then we really need irregular objects... or maybe fields are just assortments of one-tile-objects 20:05:45 <planetmaker> probably better 20:05:54 <planetmaker> hm... 20:06:03 <planetmaker> it needs *some* extension :-) 20:06:14 <frosch123> well, the idea would be that dragging an object would only require one id 20:06:39 <Ruben_> planetmaker: I guess that's the problem thanks 20:06:50 <frosch123> fields otoh have only the industry id 20:06:51 <planetmaker> dragging would also be nice for fenced land, foobar's road shoulders etc 20:06:51 <Ruben_> I tried on another computer and there it works w/o problems 20:07:01 <frosch123> while there is no per-field id 20:07:19 <planetmaker> good, Ruben_ :-) 20:07:27 <Ruben_> Well too bad for me :p 20:07:34 <Ruben_> I cannot change firewall settings on this computer 20:07:37 <Ruben_> sigh 20:07:38 <planetmaker> just check your personal firewall settings. oh 20:07:40 <Ruben_> :) 20:07:49 <planetmaker> well, talk to your parents then (if that's who can change it) 20:07:54 <Ruben_> haha 20:07:57 <Ruben_> my company you mean :p 20:08:01 <planetmaker> :-D 20:08:17 <Ruben_> I think... they will not allow me to change firewall settings for OTTD 20:08:21 <planetmaker> better not then ;-) 20:08:30 <Ruben_> just a feeling :) 20:08:35 <Ruben_> anyway thanks for your help! 20:08:47 <planetmaker> np 20:09:00 <Ruben_> have a nice evening 20:09:04 <planetmaker> get an android phone - it's said the port exists ;-) 20:11:00 <Elukka> funny 20:11:05 <Elukka> i'm just pondering android phones 20:11:08 *** Ruben_ [~5b5786d1@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:11:27 <Elukka> they're finally in the price range i'm willing to pay for a phone :P 20:11:59 <LordAro> Elukka, likewise :) 20:11:59 *** PeanutHorst [~peanutlx@115-64-68-182.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: SXEmacs - The Best A Geek Can Get - http://www.sxemacs.org/ or app-editors/sxemacs ] 20:12:10 <Elukka> that is, max 100 eur 20:12:20 * andythenorth has an iStupidPhone 20:12:30 <Elukka> it's looking like ZTE Blade or Samsung Galaxy 5 20:12:45 * andythenorth has an iTmakesMeCrossPhone 20:12:47 <Elukka> the zte has a much better screen and somewhat better hardware 20:16:41 <Elukka> heh i can see what's happening with chinese manufacturers 20:17:02 <Elukka> first they're used by foreign companies to make their hardware, then they use their expertise to make their own stuff 20:17:29 <andythenorth> yeah 20:17:31 <andythenorth> odd that :P 20:18:15 <Elukka> i bet in 10 years or sooner we'll have chinese brands equally known as, say, nokia or sony 20:22:07 <Rubidium> YKK? 20:22:43 <Rubidium> hmm, sorry... that ain't Chinese but Japanese 20:22:55 <Rubidium> but I'd argue that you have some of their products in house 20:23:49 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-81-107-130-177.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:23:53 <Chris_Booth> hi guys 20:25:14 <Chris_Booth> has anyone reported any bugs with the windows version of openttd (r22815)? there seems to be an issue with the mouse/curser dissapearing with moving/resizing th windows. Aswell as when you try to close the window 20:25:28 <Chris_Booth> but not when you move down to the windows task bar 20:25:44 <Chris_Booth> shall I add this to flysrpay? 20:26:13 <TrueBrain> all give a big hug to Yexo for making our website less annoying when navigating :D No longer it blanks white till the logos are loaded, but it is much more fluent :D:D:D:D 20:26:15 * TrueBrain parties 20:26:29 <LordAro> :D 20:26:38 <planetmaker> :-) 20:27:00 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: and it doesn't happen with any other version? 20:27:00 <Chris_Booth> 'to flyspray or not? 20:27:10 <Chris_Booth> not sure Rubidium, I am a windows user 20:27:30 <Chris_Booth> and the fellow windows user in #openttdcoop all agreed 20:27:42 <Rubidium> version of OpenTTD... 20:28:03 <Chris_Booth> read my post Rubidium 20:28:36 <Chris_Booth> only seem to do it in that nightly and not current stable 20:29:22 <Rubidium> thing is that I don't see any recent Windows specific changes 20:29:39 <Chris_Booth> seems to be win 32 only 20:29:40 <Rubidium> if I look to the video driver it must be there for at least ~6 months 20:30:10 <Chris_Booth> I can video the issue for you 20:30:34 <Chris_Booth> it when the game mouse is swaped back for windows mouse, on top of the screen 20:30:41 <Chris_Booth> but not on the bottom of the screen 20:31:01 <Rubidium> well, make the video and file a bug report I guess 20:31:11 <Chris_Booth> ok will do 20:31:16 <Rubidium> (with the video attached) 20:31:47 <Chris_Booth> yep 20:32:01 <EyeMWing> FWIW, I don't see it in R22427 Win32 20:32:43 <Rubidium> it would be nice if you are able to tell which revision (i.e. nightly) introduced it 20:32:57 <Rubidium> but you're sure there is no problem with 1.1.2? 20:33:58 <EyeMWing> Nor in a 20-minute-old trunk build. 20:34:46 <Rubidium> EyeMWing: but you can reproduce it in r22815? 20:34:55 <EyeMWing> Pulling that down now. 20:37:56 <Chris_Booth> Rubidium: something even more strange now, when I turned on camstudio to record my desktop openttd strat working 20:38:33 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:38:47 <Rubidium> typical quantum bug ;) 20:39:08 <Rubidium> or Heisenbug 20:40:02 <Chris_Booth> well the bug is still on the screen (for the user) but my desktop cam still shows the mouse 20:41:17 <EyeMWing> No go in r22815 Win32. Running on Win7 x64 with Aero turned on. 20:41:56 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: on the video it all looks correct? 20:42:03 <Chris_Booth> yes 20:42:09 <EyeMWing> Sounds to me like something upstream isn't compositing correctly. 20:42:28 <Chris_Booth> the video looks great 20:42:29 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: then it's not OpenTTD, but something between OpenTTD and your screen 20:42:46 <Chris_Booth> not just my screen Rubidium but lots of windows users 20:43:01 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: then it's maybe some windows update or something 20:43:22 <Chris_Booth> might be an areo upgdate 20:43:27 <Chris_Booth> was just going to try with areo off 20:43:35 <Rubidium> if the video is correct, then OpenTTD must be sending the right data. Otherwise it simply cannot show the right graphics 20:44:04 <Rubidium> which basically means that the video has provided proof that OpenTTD is not the buggy bit 20:44:38 <Rubidium> that it triggers something buggy in something else is something completely else 20:44:54 <EyeMWing> Most likely the video driver, if I remember how CamStudio works. 20:45:21 <Chris_Booth> hhhm, seems to me like areo is the issue 20:45:31 <Chris_Booth> as with areo off I can see the mouse at all times 20:45:38 <Chris_Booth> as soon as I turn it on it breaks 20:47:08 *** lolman [~john@188-220-249-104.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:48:37 <V453000> I am having a similar issue, noticed it when upgrading between r22727 and r22815 20:48:44 <V453000> or the same one probably :) 20:49:20 <Chris_Booth> you try and get a video or screen shot of it V453000. The mouse is there 20:50:37 <Yexo> V453000: can you try and go back to r22727 and confirm it doesn't have the issue? 20:50:40 <V453000> guess it is only situational, cant reproduce it now 20:50:51 <Yexo> or maybe Chris_Booth can? 20:51:25 <Chris_Booth> I can go back to r22727 20:51:37 <Chris_Booth> is it on the openttd website? 20:51:41 <Chris_Booth> or do I have to make it? 20:52:15 *** dandan1 [~Adium@p4FEF9B53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:52:15 <Yexo> it's here: http://gb.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/nightlies/trunk/index.html 20:52:40 <frosch123> i can produce a similar issue on linux with the sdl backend 20:53:28 <frosch123> when i open a popup by right-clcking on the titlebar and closse it my left clicking in the ottd window, the mouse is gone :p 20:53:53 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 20:53:56 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 20:53:56 <frosch123> it actually works with every popup which is closed by clicking somewhere else 20:54:05 <Yexo> I can confirm that 20:54:11 <Chris_Booth> ok r22727 has a mouse 20:54:42 <Chris_Booth> trying 22729 now 20:55:36 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 20:55:49 <Chris_Booth> r22729 works 20:56:12 <Yexo> Chris_Booth: it's easier to try something in the midle now, like r22830 20:56:25 <Chris_Booth> ok will try 22830 20:56:47 <Yexo> that way we can quickly narrow down when the problem was introduced 20:56:48 <Rubidium> Yexo: only we're looking between ..727 and ..815 20:57:00 <Yexo> oh, I missed that 20:57:03 <Chris_Booth> lol 20:57:12 <Chris_Booth> erm 790-800 20:57:32 <Yexo> 790 works fine? 20:57:53 <Chris_Booth> 772 is last the 801 20:57:56 <Chris_Booth> trying 772 now 20:58:40 <Chris_Booth> 22772 fine 20:59:11 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:59:16 <Chris_Booth> so now only 815 and maybe 804 20:59:35 <Yexo> 815 was broken according to V453000 20:59:48 <Chris_Booth> yes 815 is broken 20:59:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 20:59:57 <Chris_Booth> and 804 21:00:19 <Chris_Booth> so last one without broken mouse is r22772 21:00:28 <Chris_Booth> r22804 has broken mouse 21:00:36 <Chris_Booth> I am not sure about current nightly 21:01:10 <Chris_Booth> chech 22927 now 21:01:56 <Chris_Booth> lol r22927 is fine 21:03:35 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-004-036.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:04:43 *** LordAro [569cebe0@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:06:14 <Chris_Booth> Yexo: does that help? 21:06:47 <Yexo> if current trunk is fine I don't see how we're supposed to fix anything 21:06:56 <Chris_Booth> lol 21:07:00 <Yexo> and we still don't know what caused the bug in earlier versions, so it's likely to come back 21:07:18 <Yexo> so there is nothing more you can do, but it doesn't really help ;) 21:07:26 <Chris_Booth> if it comes back I will tell you 21:08:02 <Chris_Booth> I can tell you the version that have the issue but I would not want to be the person reviewing all those subversions 21:11:59 <Yexo> nothing related changed in the OpenTTD code 21:13:30 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff7ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:55 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 21:16:28 <z-MaTRiX> hii 21:17:09 *** Francis [~chatzilla@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:20:50 <b_jonas> I should use more "full load" orders 21:21:10 <b_jonas> and more shared orders 21:23:49 <b_jonas> apart from passenger and mail transport, when is it better not to use full load? 21:24:00 <b_jonas> in practice that is 21:24:32 <Yexo> I always use full load for non-passenger transport 21:24:38 <Yexo> (and I never transport mail :p) 21:25:39 <b_jonas> okay 21:26:00 <EyeMWing> Mail is such an unloved cargo. 21:26:07 <EyeMWing> I should try to play a postal service game some time. 21:26:10 <planetmaker> except by chopperAI 21:26:27 <z-MaTRiX> what about full load any and using mixed cargo type passengers 8 3 mail ? 21:26:51 <EyeMWing> I should also try out these newfangled AIs. Last time I played with competition was actually honest-to-god DOS TTD. 21:27:52 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 21:28:16 <b_jonas> I usually put at least one mail car on large passenger trains, which typically means 2 engines, 1 mail, 9 passenger carrige. Sometimes adding two mail car would be better (mail pays better), but I rarely try to figure it out. 21:28:25 <b_jonas> Also, most passenger airplanes transport mail. 21:33:11 <Elukka> i just put a mail car on my passenger trains 21:35:06 <Elukka> why 2 engines? 21:35:42 <Chris_Booth> Elukka: better power to wieght ratio 21:35:53 <b_jonas> Elukka: an AsiaStar is made of two ends 21:35:58 <Elukka> ah, yes 21:36:15 <b_jonas> just one engine while I'm still using SH-40 21:36:26 <Elukka> to anyone who's played 2cc... are locomotive pulled passenger trains ever worth it? 21:36:38 <Elukka> even a high end multiple unit has less than half the maintenance cost of a locomotive 21:36:59 <Elukka> more like a quarter really 21:37:55 <b_jonas> hmm, no full load could be better for town ratings at the destination station 21:41:56 <planetmaker> good night 21:42:05 <Chris_Booth> gn planetmaker 21:42:20 *** dandan1 [~Adium@p4FEF9B53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #openttd [] 21:43:16 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 21:45:10 <EyeMWing> Well, in real life (at least in the US) MUs tend not to be safety rated to share track with freight. 21:45:41 <EyeMWing> In 2cc? Probably not. 21:47:26 <Chris_Booth> EyeMWing: lots of MU share tracks with Freight in the UK 21:47:38 <Terkhen> good night 21:47:43 <Chris_Booth> actauly all trains on the west coast main lines are either MUs or Freight 21:47:44 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:48:49 <EyeMWing> We have some funky collision safety requirements that require the leading vehicle of a train to be at least as sturdy as a straight up freight locomotive. Dedicated-line MUs only have to be half as strong. 21:49:46 <Bjarni> are you in the US? 21:49:54 <EyeMWing> Yes. 21:49:59 <Bjarni> thought so 21:50:06 <Bjarni> car drivers there are crazy 21:50:16 <Elukka> here in finland we definitely have freight and MUs share track 21:50:28 <Bjarni> makes sense to build trains sturdy 21:50:44 <Bjarni> one collision every 90 minute on average 21:50:48 <Bjarni> in road crossings 21:50:51 <Elukka> 2cc does have a fair amount of passenger locomotives 21:50:59 <Elukka> it's just they're really, really expensive to run compared to MUs 21:51:45 <Bjarni> which given the population would be the same as a collision every 4th day in Denmark. However it's more like one collision every year 21:51:57 <Bjarni> or even less than that 21:52:01 <Elukka> i do like that MUs are cheaper to run as in most sets they're useless, just i'm not sure they should be that cheap in comparison to locomotives 21:52:09 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-23.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:58 <Bjarni> running costs in OpenTTD is horribly unrealistic. If people try to copy some real numbers, then it ends up really unbalanced in the game 21:54:50 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-81-107-130-177.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0/20110908135051]] 21:54:57 <Bjarni> the system used in SimuTrans seems to be a bit more realistic, though still quite unrealistic and I wouldn't say it's a clear winner gamewise 21:55:03 <EyeMWing> Colorado Railcar did a comparison between their DMU hauling some bilevels and locomotive-hauled bilevels. For the same seat count, the DMU burned a bit over .9 gallons per mile. The locomotive burned 2.3 gallosn per mile. So the running cost difference is there for sure. 21:55:08 <Bjarni> it's not a clear loser either 21:55:24 <Elukka> interesting 21:55:35 <Elukka> bjarni: how does simutrans use it? 21:55:37 <Elukka> err, do it 21:55:57 <Bjarni> fixed price each day + a price for each tile moved 21:56:04 <Bjarni> for both engines and wagons 21:56:26 <Elukka> huh. 21:56:30 <Elukka> i'd love to see that in openttd 21:56:45 <Bjarni> cheap to have a train waiting at a station and expensive to move it around 21:56:54 <EyeMWing> NARS does something like that. 21:57:09 <Elukka> NARS does lower running costs when trains are standing still 21:57:28 <b_jonas> actually more realistic might be if you had to pay for starting and turns and slopes but not much for just going on 21:57:39 <b_jonas> especially if there's a lot of weight 21:58:13 <EyeMWing> In RUST I'm planning on a fixed cost and then a sliding scale based on speed (which will be relevant for speed limits and such) 21:58:16 <Elukka> so have a low base cost, a certain cost for moving a tile, and higher costs per slope tile 21:58:22 <Bjarni> it would be better if it's calculated like this: something fixed + variable*power usage 21:58:45 <b_jonas> but how do you compute the power usage? 21:58:48 <Bjarni> power usage is 0 when braking or standing still, 100% when accelerating and calculated when maintaining speed 21:58:57 <b_jonas> Elukka: no, also for starting 21:58:57 <EyeMWing> we can already detect braking 21:59:09 <EyeMWing> accelerating is more of a challenge. 21:59:16 <Bjarni> starting is accelerating 21:59:21 <Elukka> okay starting too 21:59:35 <b_jonas> you could pay for braking instead of for accelerating, that's almost the same, isn't it? 21:59:48 <Bjarni> b_jonas: no 22:00:08 <Bjarni> accelerating costs diesel. Braking makes the engine(s) run idle 22:00:24 <EyeMWing> With a patch or two bumping running costs while running uphill would be doable. 22:00:30 <Bjarni> and the driver releases air, which makes the brakeshoes push against the wheels 22:00:47 <Elukka> how would a 'realistic running costs' patch like this jive with existing grfs? 22:01:11 <Bjarni> replacing brakeshoes is an expense, but I say it's so little that it's not worth to include in the game 22:01:21 <Bjarni> not worth the CPU time 22:01:33 <EyeMWing> If done right, it wouldn't change anything. Just expose more for the GRF author to use. 22:02:35 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:59 <b_jonas> Bjarni: sure, but you brake the same amount as you accelerate (if you account with slopes correctly), so if it's technically simpler for the game, it could measure braking instead of accelerating 22:03:28 <Bjarni> <b_jonas> but how do you compute the power usage? <--- when maintaining speed, say the train has 2k hp, but it only needs 1200 to maintain it's current speed, then power usage would be 60% 22:03:56 <Bjarni> I know diesel engines doesn't burn diesel linear like that, but.... why make to too complex? :) 22:05:16 <Bjarni> I don't think it would be more complex to measure accelerating. If not top speed and not stopping and not stopped => accelerating 22:05:35 <Bjarni> could be even simpler 22:05:36 <Elukka> i think it'd be better if it could interface with existing grfs, but i don't know how possible that is 22:05:52 <Bjarni> haven't looked at the specific code 22:06:02 <Bjarni> well I have, but not while thinking about this 22:06:24 <b_jonas> or just add another field for speed 22:06:30 <Bjarni> it's a good question to to make this in a backward compatible way 22:06:35 <b_jonas> for previous speed that is 22:06:56 <Elukka> much like the realistic acceleration option works with old trains... it'd be nice for realistic running costs to work too 22:07:00 <Bjarni> the game is fully aware when a train is accelerating 22:07:03 <b_jonas> Bjarni: it could be an option that only works if the train GRF allows it 22:07:16 <Bjarni> also an option 22:08:29 <Bjarni> this would make the game harder. If the train goes to max speed and is able to just maintain it, then running costs will be minimal 22:08:57 <Bjarni> each time they stop at a signal, they have to pay extra to gain speed afterwards because the engine has to work harder 22:09:25 <Elukka> hmm... 22:09:34 <Bjarni> which means signals not only slow down transport time and hence income but also increases costs 22:09:35 *** Francis [~chatzilla@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941]] 22:09:53 <Elukka> in reality, it'd slow down so that it doesn't have to stop, but openttd trains aren't clever enough to do that 22:10:02 <Elukka> it could be an argument to not have starts increase running costs 22:10:03 <Bjarni> at least not yet 22:10:45 <Wolf01> 'night 22:10:51 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.233.237.150] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:11:43 <b_jonas> it definitely should be an option in advanced settings 22:11:45 <Bjarni> I saw some guy posting on the forum that he wanted fast trains to slow down when behind a slow train like ATC does it... 22:11:48 <b_jonas> not a default 22:11:55 <b_jonas> ATC? 22:11:57 <Bjarni> we all want that but.... ATC has nothing to do with that :p 22:12:06 <Bjarni> Automatic Train Control 22:12:37 <Bjarni> it's a system which tells the train computer if the signal is green or red and pulls the emergency brake if the driver skips a red signal 22:13:04 <Bjarni> s/sjips/misses 22:13:40 <Bjarni> sure the the advanced version can theoretically be used to slow down to match speed, but that slowdown also works without ATC 22:13:41 <b_jonas> I see 22:14:03 <Bjarni> like "this signal is green and the next is green" = 120 km/h 22:14:18 <Bjarni> "this signal is green and the next is red" = 60-70 km/h 22:14:50 <Bjarni> that's how it worked before ATC was installed 22:15:41 <Bjarni> and ATC is only updated near signals, which means it really can't provide improvements when it comes to this 22:15:58 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:16:06 *** Progman [~progman@p57A199F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:31 <Bjarni> in fact it makes it worse because it can know the next signal to be red and not realize it changed to green until it's close, which gives an unneeded slowdown. The driver can see the green signal though. 22:17:40 <Bjarni> There is a signal in Malmö where trains risks having to slow down to 10 km/h for a green signal xD 22:18:08 <Bjarni> it's when approaching the platform so it's not that big a deal though 22:20:09 * Bjarni wonders how to make OpenTTD clever enough to make one train match the speed of the train in front of it 22:20:57 <Bjarni> it's actually somewhat complex to code 22:21:19 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-048-239.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 22:21:58 <Bjarni> like say the next signal is red and the train on the other side is slow. If it always matches the speed, then it would be bad in some cases 22:22:12 <EyeMWing> Yeah 22:22:23 <Bjarni> like if there are 20 tiles to the signal and the other slow train is gone when the train has travelled 10 tiles at full speed 22:22:34 <Bjarni> in that case it shouldn't slow down 22:22:43 <EyeMWing> In reality, though, the train is averaging the same speed as the one in front anyway 22:23:53 <Bjarni> I guess it should be something like "match train speed in front if next block has no junctions" 22:24:20 <Bjarni> though that could result in unintended behavior as well 22:24:31 <Bjarni> maybe a new signal type... 22:25:16 <b_jonas> about new signal types, what I'd like is a kind of debugging signal or waypoint whose effect is that if a train passes is then you get a news message 22:25:18 <Bjarni> "if heading for red signal (of new type), match speed of train in next block" 22:25:35 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:26:05 <Bjarni> b_jonas: when would you use such a signal? 22:26:23 <Bjarni> and I think a waypoint would be better 22:27:05 <b_jonas> probably a waypoint, yes 22:27:21 <b_jonas> on train tracks that I put there so a train can reverse if it's lost, but should not usually go there 22:27:51 <b_jonas> so eg. it could notify me if the train has chosen depots wrong and has to go back 22:28:20 <Bjarni> ahh 22:28:32 <Bjarni> makes sense 22:28:55 <Bjarni> I always adds depots to orders to avoid such issues 22:29:08 <b_jonas> it's not only depots 22:29:15 <b_jonas> it can be other problems with my rail design 22:29:31 <Bjarni> like wait to load train, then service (or forced if it's unreliable) 22:30:04 <Elukka> http://www.brawa.de/en/products/h0/wagons/passenger-coaches/45263-compartment-coach-c4-kpev.html 22:30:17 <Elukka> i'm browsing brawa's site for sprite drawing reference and goddamn their models are amazing 22:30:56 <Bjarni> how does the couplers work? 22:31:09 <Bjarni> doesn't look like normal model couplers to me 22:31:09 <Elukka> http://www.brawa.de/en/products/h0/locomotives/steam-locomotives/45972-set-br94.html 22:31:35 <Elukka> i think they come with both model couplers (just cosmetic) and actual functional couplers 22:31:59 <Elukka> that set costs... 600 euros O_o 22:32:14 <Elukka> that's like double the price of mÀrklin stuff 22:32:18 <Bjarni> OpenTTD money or real money? :p 22:32:46 <Elukka> real money! 22:33:15 * Bjarni went to a MÀrklin store and was offered switches for 350 kr 22:33:24 <Bjarni> normal price is 400 22:33:36 <Elukka> did they come with a motor and digital decoder 22:33:44 <Bjarni> that was some expensive used ones without original packages 22:33:48 <Bjarni> yeah 22:33:52 <Elukka> that's... still expensive 22:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: afair the couplers are extension pieces which you can add, but then you can't run it anymore 22:33:56 <Bjarni> but I don't know if they worked 22:34:39 <b_jonas> oh, so this is why these trains kept getting lost. I was missing some rail pieces so they can leave the depot so they had to go back to the station to reverse 22:34:51 <Bjarni> hehe 22:35:18 <Elukka> since the models have NEM pockets i assume you can just switch to and from the functional and cosmetic coupler 22:35:29 <Elukka> though... actually not sure 22:35:37 <Bjarni> looking at the picture it looks like the last guy doing the decoupling was lazy 22:35:40 <Elukka> the cosmetic coupler might not actually attach to the pocket 22:35:48 <Bjarni> the chain is in the main hook 22:36:02 <Bjarni> it should be in a smaller hook below 22:36:43 <Bjarni> now if both cars are like that, one chain has to be moved down before the hook is ready for the chain from the other car 22:36:57 <Bjarni> lazy German switching workers :p 22:37:20 <Elukka> i'd love to get some brawa models (once i can find the money to finish my layout...) but i'm not even sure how well they'd run on mÀrklin tracks 22:38:24 <Elukka> ah, they sell replacement wheelsets 22:39:04 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2146-1.jpg 22:39:07 <Elukka> gratuitous model picture :P 22:40:26 <Bjarni> http://www.brawa.de/uploads/tx_imagecycle/Brawa-Diorama-Ruebezahl_Startseite.png <-- that one looks nice too 22:40:30 <b_jonas> what would you use a cosmetic coupler for? put it to the last carriage of the train? 22:40:38 <Bjarni> yes 22:40:40 <Bjarni> I think so 22:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> put it into a glass view 22:41:48 <Bjarni> that too 22:41:56 <Elukka> i know people have made working couplers that look damn near like the real thing, it's just they won't couple/decouple automatically 22:41:59 <glx> wow it looks real 22:42:12 <Bjarni> makes me think of Toy Story 2.... the toy wants to be played with, not put on display in a glass box 22:42:32 <Elukka> and since they're set between the buffers, curve radius has to be wide enough 22:43:24 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:24 <Bjarni> curved tracks has always been an issue for hook and buffer couplers in real life 22:43:41 <b_jonas> no automatic coupling and a large curve radius still sounds like a real thing to me 22:43:46 <Bjarni> which is part of the reason (main reason?) Japan switched to the US system 22:44:00 <Elukka> yes but it's nice to be able to fit your layout in a room :P 22:44:08 <glx> no curves ? 22:44:15 <Bjarni> narrowgauge tracks and really bad curves makes buffers skip each other and cause deadlocks 22:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the main reason why europe didn't switch coupling systems yet is that they couldn't agree on anything... 22:44:36 <Bjarni> as usual... 22:44:59 <b_jonas> it's also because they don't want to spend any money on even maintaining property 22:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but german DMU and EMU types already have different couplings 22:45:06 <Elukka> in model rail, these days most models come with a close coupler mechanism 22:45:07 <b_jonas> buying new stuff is completely out 22:45:12 <Bjarni> though not switching gives the benefit that even 19th century locomotives can pull modern wagons 22:45:17 <Bjarni> or vice versa 22:45:19 <Elukka> it keeps the cars nice and snug on straight track and slight curves, but brings them further away as needed 22:45:24 <Elukka> to avoid buffer lock 22:45:34 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2729.jpg 22:45:40 <EyeMWing> Meanwhile, in America, even out HSTs have standard automatic couplers stashed under covers at the nose. 22:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: german railways have "adapters" to allow regular engines pull e.g. an ICE train 22:46:18 <Elukka> in finland we have locomotives with both buffer & chain and automatic couplers 22:46:25 <Elukka> russian automatic couplers, similar to the american ones i understand 22:46:43 <EyeMWing> Yeah, the Russians are the same, just pointier and incompatible 22:47:08 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: I think that goes for all of Europe. They are just not around when an engine needs to pull a broken EMU away 22:47:12 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/VR_Electric_Locomotive_Helsinki_Finland.jpg 22:47:17 <Elukka> there's a knucle and there's a chain... 22:47:21 <Bjarni> which causes slowdowns in recovery when something like that happens 22:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: afair the russian couplers are improved american couplers 22:48:34 <Elukka> american trains seem so much easier model-rail wise :D 22:48:43 <Elukka> no buffers to lock... comparatively huge couplers on the real thing too 22:49:07 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:50:35 <Bjarni> http://www.brawa.de/produkte/h0/lokomotiven/diesellokomotiven/42700-diesellok-gravita-15-bb-werkslok-voith-turbo.html <--- wtf... built 2011 22:50:47 <Bjarni> I took two pictures of such an engine 22:50:52 <Bjarni> a real life one 22:50:55 <Elukka> i do like the mÀrklin close couplers though, they couple automatically with little force and are easy to manually decouple from underneath with a bent piece of wire 22:50:58 <Bjarni> looked sort of new though 22:51:10 <Bjarni> not dirty at all or anything 22:51:36 <Elukka> that's a good looking locomotive 22:52:55 <Elukka> http://www.alstom.com/assets/0/4294967308/170/2147485722/2147485723/2147485850/79b5d0f1-652c-48fb-bcb4-01545117e7a6.jpg 22:53:01 <Elukka> i rather like the looks of this one too 22:53:33 <Elukka> http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/1/4/8514.1149472800.jpg 22:53:35 <Elukka> what a weird picture 22:53:42 <Elukka> american and european locomotives coupled together... in iran 22:53:59 <Bjarni> but I was just walking next to a railroad and it happened to pass by chance... kind of lucky to bring my camera when something like that showed up out of nowhere 22:54:07 <Bjarni> unpowered railroad line btw 22:54:23 <Bjarni> so the one you wanted to show would sure be a real sight there :p 22:54:27 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:04 <Elukka> speaking of american locomotives, there seem to be a fair bit exported to china too 22:55:13 <Elukka> it's not just china exporting stuff to the US 22:55:40 <Elukka> i recall people writing about huge consists of brand new diesels bound for china 22:56:06 <EyeMWing> Yeah. 22:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> some east german engines and wagons were actually prepared to be refitted to russian-style couplings 22:56:32 <EyeMWing> That's the primary business for EMD and GE these days. 22:56:38 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 22:56:39 <Elukka> and while i'm rambling, there's still a rail line in china that uses steam locomotives 22:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in preparation for a possible switch in the eastern block, i presume 22:57:06 <EyeMWing> China needs motive power to get all our consumer crap onto ships, after all 22:57:28 <Elukka> it might be primarily to attract tourists and such, but they're still using steam locomotives for practical purposes 22:57:40 <Elukka> it was a coal line i think, with some passenger service 22:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> EyeMWing: those "consumer crap" things are usually produced near the coast. the steam-operated lines are usually way in the back country, e.g. for coal transports 22:58:24 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db197e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 22:58:41 <Elukka> i don't think there's more than that one steam line left these days 23:03:48 <Bjarni> <Elukka> and while i'm rambling, there's still a rail line in china that uses steam locomotives <-- yeah.... except they actually retired their steam locomotives in 2008 23:03:55 <Bjarni> or was it 2006... not sure 23:03:55 <Elukka> aww 23:03:59 <Elukka> didn't know that 23:04:11 <Bjarni> I think it was 2008 23:04:23 <Bjarni> stupid move to retire those 23:04:43 <Bjarni> they ran in an area with coal mines and they designed to burn discarded coal dust 23:04:52 <Bjarni> or coal rubbles 23:04:59 <Bjarni> cheap fuel 23:05:09 <Bjarni> though it meant the fireman should fire all the time 23:05:22 <Bjarni> as a result they had two firemen and they switched every 10th minute 23:05:49 <Elukka> well, it isn't exactly cheap to maintain steam, nor very environmental... though i'd keep a couple locomotives going for historical purposes 23:05:55 <Bjarni> so tiny coals burns virtually instantly in such a heat 23:06:28 <Bjarni> cheap to maintain.... are you talking about what to pay Chinese workers to do the job in a low paid area? 23:06:35 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:21ea:a24d:cb46:c0e5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:47 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:21ea:a24d:cb46:c0e5] has joined #openttd 23:06:49 <Bjarni> I said it was near the coal mines, were work is the railroad or the coal mines 23:07:07 <Elukka> well, they didn't retire them for no reason and i have my doubts they did it for the environment 23:07:40 <Bjarni> environmental... that would be a first if China cares about pollution, which aren't killing people though drinking water or similar 23:07:49 <EyeMWing> Probably maintenance cost. 23:07:56 <Elukka> that's what i'm guessng 23:08:10 <Bjarni> maybe they were worn out and needed new boiler pipes and stuff 23:08:24 <Elukka> well, china is having to think a bit about the environment because the pollution is resulting in very real economic losses 23:08:55 <Bjarni> yeah, but they don't care about coal smoke 23:09:14 <Bjarni> they care about toxic rivers because rivers are also drinking water 23:09:34 <Bjarni> sick workers are political dangerous as well as unable to work well 23:09:54 <Elukka> true 23:32:17 *** SpBot [spbot@skrblz.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd 23:32:42 *** SpComb^ [terom@zerg.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd 23:34:10 <Elukka> Eddi|ZuHause: any idea what "Wd fit car brn" stands for in the color templates? 23:34:16 <Elukka> it's the "wd fit" part i don't get 23:37:42 <EyeMWing> ... Wait, did that just work? 23:37:53 <EyeMWing> It wasn't supposed to work yet, it was supposed to crash spectacularly. 23:44:23 <Bjarni> crash test failed :p 23:48:22 *** Priski [priski@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:51:34 <EyeMWing> Hrm 23:51:37 <EyeMWing> This edge case sucks. 23:54:16 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:58:27 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]