Log for #openttd on 24th September 2011:
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00:54:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:12:15  <Malaca1077> hello
01:12:27  <Malaca1077> any1 there for a info about ttd?
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06:34:25  <andythenorth> morn
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07:00:39  <planetmaker> heya
07:03:14  <V453000> morning
07:05:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to help do a fun FIRS ticket?
07:05:39  <planetmaker> in principle yes
07:05:49  <planetmaker> I'm always doing fun tickets ;-)
07:05:52  <andythenorth> I want to give the food market 2 small climate-dependent trees
07:06:02  <andythenorth> currently it has two flower pots
07:06:09  <andythenorth> I'm slicing the graphics a bit more now
07:06:13  <planetmaker> that's relatively easy
07:06:15  <andythenorth> we can give it foundations at the same time
07:06:23  <andythenorth> easy ticket for a weekend :)
07:06:39  <andythenorth> I'll do my bit now + commit
07:06:44  <V453000> fuck guys I just got an insane idea I _have_ to draw :D
07:07:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I assume you want to use a tree from the default trees?
07:07:47  <andythenorth> base set yes
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07:07:59  <andythenorth> there are some small fir trees and palm trees :)
07:07:59  <planetmaker> (or tree grf, whatever one uses)
07:08:24  <planetmaker> yes
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07:13:31  <planetmaker> hm, foundations?
07:14:02  <andythenorth> black ground detai
07:14:03  <andythenorth> l
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07:24:00  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what kind of tree? Leaf? fir?
07:24:24  <andythenorth> temperate: leaf; arctic: fir; tropic: cacti
07:24:44  <planetmaker> good. I'll look
07:26:15  <Alberth> moin
07:27:44  <andythenorth> hi
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07:32:25  <planetmaker> hi Alberth
07:43:11  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:28:02  <Wolf01> morning
08:32:53  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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09:10:56  <Amis> Hello o/
09:11:42  <Amis> I was wondering if it's possible to set the "No. of towns" setting below "Very low" through some config tweaking or something?
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09:12:33  <Alberth> not really
09:12:46  <Alberth> you could generate a map in the scenario editor though
09:13:21  <Alberth> but that is a bit more work than 1 "generate" button :)
09:13:34  <Amis> Yeah :/
09:14:26  <Amis> Okkkeeey...
09:14:38  <Amis> It IS possible, I just had to upgrade my OpenTTD
09:14:57  <Alberth> oh?
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09:15:27  <Amis> There's a "Custom" option in 1.13
09:15:32  <Amis> 1.1.3*
09:16:15  <Terkhen> yes :)
09:16:24  <Terkhen> you will have to scale the value to mapsize manually, though
09:16:35  <Amis> It's still a nice addition
09:16:44  <Terkhen> :)
09:19:08  <Alberth> hmm, I must play more openttd :p
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09:20:36  <Amis> Now all you have to add is custom interest rates :>
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09:22:33  <Alberth> that doesn't fix anything, it just postpones
09:23:03  <Amis> 4% is too low :/ you can vegetate with that and not go bankrupt
09:23:40  <Terkhen> I remember a discussion explaining what would happen in the forums
09:23:42  <Alberth> you know there are lots of base cost grfs, right?
09:23:56  <planetmaker> they don't change the interest, though
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09:24:11  <planetmaker> but indeed changing base costs is the way to get a much steeper challenge
09:24:27  <planetmaker> more than interest ever could - as that only would affect the beginning
09:24:57  <planetmaker> i.e. it's usually very tough for people, if you make terraforming really €€€€€€€
09:25:06  * Alberth wonders about a "you were robbed of all your money" disaster
09:25:07  <planetmaker> like 1 million per tile, 10 million per tile of water
09:25:28  <planetmaker> it keeps you really from terraforming lots ;-)
09:25:38  <Terkhen> more money for the rest of stuff!
09:25:54  <Alberth> I tend not to do much terraforming anyway :)
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09:27:57  <planetmaker> but less straight tracks ;-)
09:28:14  <planetmaker> Alberth: for single player that's usually a non-issue. You can do there what you want.
09:28:32  <planetmaker> But it's a great way to keep the landscape intact on open multi-player servers :-)
09:28:44  <Terkhen> yes :)
09:28:47  <Terkhen> specially the water costs
09:28:52  <planetmaker> yeah
09:32:24  <Elukka> increased base costs mostly just feel like they slow down the start of the game even more
09:32:31  <Elukka> eventually you'll still have effectively infinite money
09:33:34  <Elukka> well. if it's as drastic as "a million per tile", i suppose that keeps people from terraforming very much :)
09:35:43  <planetmaker> doesn't increased interest just slow down the start even more either?
09:36:01  <planetmaker> I mean... after 4 years I have no loan anymore - so where does it play a role then?
09:36:10  <Elukka> yeah, that doesn't do it either
09:36:13  <Elukka> i'm not sure what would
09:36:49  <Elukka> kidnap an economist, make him simplify and abstract a real world model into something fun and playable and make him code a patch
09:37:58  <Alberth> have a contract paying x for y tonnes in z years ?
09:39:01  <Terkhen> there is a sticky thread about economy in the development subforum
09:39:11  <Terkhen> I have always ignored it, money does not bother me :P
09:39:13  <Elukka> i saw that but isn't that kinda dead
09:39:23  <Terkhen> yes, but it might have some ideas and pointers
09:39:28  <Elukka> true
09:40:40  <Alberth> hmm, a contract system looks a lot like yacd
09:40:55  <Terkhen> yes :)
09:42:32  <planetmaker> rb has somewhere a new payment scheme.
09:42:38  <planetmaker> that provides also a new challenge
09:44:01  <Elukka> i do like what yacd does
09:44:03  <Terkhen> yes :)
09:44:12  <Terkhen> you can also abuse the cargo payment callback a bit
09:44:15  <Elukka> staying with cargodist until it gets ironed out a bit though
09:44:28  <Terkhen> and I'm waiting for a new version of yacd before I play again :P
09:45:03  <planetmaker> :-D
09:45:17  <Elukka> the most painful part is how you have to keep making vehicles manually skip orders cause every time you add a new vehicle to a route some of them will stop loading
09:48:53  <Terkhen> I always use go non-stop orders, specially with yacd
09:50:58  <Elukka> so do i
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09:54:38  <planetmaker> Usually I do. Except possibly for local train networks
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10:15:58  <Elukka>
10:15:59  <Elukka> spees
10:17:13  <Alberth> doesn't look like the nasa satellite :)
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10:53:51  <MNIM> it ain't :P
10:54:44  <MNIM>
10:54:52  <MNIM> it's awfully beta, though
10:56:16  <Elukka> awfully fun anyway
10:56:39  <Elukka>
10:56:46  <Elukka> i'm currently trying to loft this to orbit and back
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10:58:07  <MNIM> heh, nice
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11:30:20  <andythenorth> too quiet
11:30:45  <Markk> Yep.
11:31:05  <planetmaker> yup. Have a nice day :-) I'm off for the rest. Too nice weather outside :-)
11:31:16  <Markk> Anyone speaking dutch?
11:31:50  <Terkhen> planetmaker: enjoy :)
11:32:09  <Alberth> Markk: at an english speaking channel? unlikely
11:32:40  <Alberth> but just try to express what you want to know
11:32:49  <Alberth> if it is unclear, we will ask again
11:32:57  <Alberth> for clarification
11:33:17  <Markk> Alberth: There is alot of german speaking people here. :)
11:34:04  <Markk> But ye, my question is if you can say: "Hoe gaat het?"?
11:34:11  <Markk> (In the meaning "How are you?".
11:34:17  <Markk> Or "what's up?"
11:34:26  <Alberth> busy, as always :)
11:34:59  <MNIM> actually, there's quite some dutch people in the ottd community, so it's quite likely there are
11:35:22  <Markk> Thought so. :)
11:36:49  <Markk> I shared a flat together with a dutch guy before, and I came to the conclusion that Dutch is more alike Swedish than German and Swedish.
11:36:55  <Alberth> MNIM: and the next question is then "kan ik je wat dingen vragen in een prive chat?" (can I ask you a few things in a private chat?)
11:37:27  <MNIM> 0-o
11:37:32  <Alberth> which is kind of counter-productive as more people means better answers
11:37:35  <Markk> Atleast when you've learned some basic things in Dutch.
11:37:37  <__ln__> and "pardon, bent u'n romulaan?"
11:37:45  <MNIM> ...
11:38:04  <MNIM> no, I'm not romulan, Im vulcan, mkayyy
11:38:19  <Alberth> __ln__: wrong universe :p
11:38:26  <MNIM> hehehe
11:38:58  <MNIM> but yeah, privmsg is kindof dumb
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13:10:48  <Silene> hello
13:11:06  <Alberth> hi
13:11:41  <Silene> i just tried out openttd but might need some general help
13:12:06  <Alberth> you've come to the right channel :)
13:12:13  <Silene> great :)
13:12:34  <Silene> i managed to start a game and play a little
13:12:52  <Silene> but there are several things wich bug me
13:13:46  <Silene> first of all everything is going very fast
13:14:03  <Silene> while i'm building stuff i get popup windows all the time
13:14:13  <Elukka> popup windows?
13:14:14  <Silene> newspaper etc
13:14:56  <MNIM> ignore 'em, they're not that important
13:15:06  <Silene> idling busses
13:15:10  <Silene> etc
13:15:23  <MNIM> did you give 'em orders?
13:15:33  <Elukka> you can turn off newspaper messages for any events you like
13:15:46  <Alberth>  <-- news settings
13:16:49  <Silene> is it possible to run the game slower?
13:16:54  <Alberth> as for speed, do you have the fast-forward switched on?
13:17:08  <Silene> no it's too fast on normal speed :-D
13:17:31  <Alberth> what is too fast exactly?
13:17:34  <Alberth> trains?
13:17:40  <Silene> time running
13:17:52  <Terkhen> you can enable build on pause
13:18:05  <Alberth> time is not of interest, you have 100 years, which is about 24h real-time playing
13:18:06  <Silene> i can?
13:18:08  <Elukka> huh. you can?
13:18:15  <Elukka> shows how much i know
13:18:15  <Alberth> yes, yes
13:18:22  <Terkhen> hmm... at least in nightlies, let me check if it is in 1.1.x
13:18:25  <MNIM> lol, you didn't know that, elukka?
13:18:32  <Elukka> i didn't!
13:18:33  <MNIM> but yeah, I do build in pause too
13:18:44  <Silene> time is important if i want subventions ^^
13:18:47  <Terkhen> well, the conversion from cheat to setting is relatively recent
13:19:26  <MNIM> generally I spend more time paused than running, but game years still advance at a pace thanks to FFWD
13:19:49  <Terkhen> Silene: Options menu > Advanced Settings > Construction > When paused allow: all actions
13:21:13  <Silene> found it :)
13:21:37  <Silene> when i'm in the game, how do i get to the main menu?
13:23:31  <MNIM> exit current game (you will want to save first)
13:23:40  <MNIM> but if you want options, you don't want to do that
13:23:42  <Silene> via console?
13:23:50  <MNIM> ...console? no!
13:24:33  <Silene> so how?
13:24:42  <MNIM> click on the gear icon, hold click and move down to advanced settings
13:25:43  <Silene> gear icon? i think i don't have that one
13:26:02  <MNIM> right next to fast-forward and pause
13:26:03  <Silene> first icon is pause
13:26:56  <Silene> ah ok
13:27:09  <Silene> but that doesn't lead me to main menu
13:27:18  <Silene> i can do settings there, ok
13:27:30  <Terkhen> disk IIRC
13:28:10  <Terkhen> Silene:
13:29:11  <Silene> ah on the load icon :).
13:29:34  <Silene> (and my gear looks like a wrench btw)
13:29:57  <Terkhen> you are using original ttd sprites then
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13:30:29  <Silene> yes
13:31:23  <Silene> i played the game years ago ^^
13:32:15  <Terkhen> the wiki is made (for the most part) with opengfx (the free graphics) but buttons are in the same places with both graphics sets
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13:33:54  <Silene> ic. is there a big difference?
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13:34:34  <Silene> the menu bar looks pretty much the same
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13:34:44  <Silene> except for the gear/wrench ^^
13:34:55  <z-MaTRiX> hi
13:35:09  <Elukka> so my friend recompiled the version i was looking for
13:35:14  <z-MaTRiX> :)
13:35:19  <z-MaTRiX> we have a winner
13:35:40  <z-MaTRiX> Sep 11 01:01:33 matrix sshd[17340]: Accepted password for root from port 1588 ssh
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13:36:53  <Silene> is it possible to make the mouseover text appear faster?
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13:37:28  <Terkhen> finally, the first person that asks about that :P
13:37:41  <z-MaTRiX> į believe it is the advanced menu "help appears after x seconds"
13:37:42  <Terkhen> Silene: advanced settings -> interface -> show tooltips
13:38:24  <Terkhen> Elukka: patchpacks are not including cargodist anymore?
13:38:40  <Silene> really?
13:38:55  <Elukka> i haven't found any cargodist binary new enough to work with recent FIRS
13:39:09  <Terkhen> patch packers must be on vacation too :P
13:39:22  <Elukka> the auto compile thing is on vacation also :P
13:39:31  <Terkhen> Silene: many just use "right click to show tooltip"
13:39:36  <Elukka>
13:39:37  <Elukka> june
13:40:15  <Silene> i should've installed in english
13:40:17  <Elukka> chill's patchpack looks awful nice
13:40:22  <Elukka> probably going to play that if he ever gets it updated
13:40:30  <Terkhen> Silene: OpenTTD should include all languages
13:40:30  <Elukka> i hear he's busy with that pesky real life thing
13:40:41  <Terkhen> go to options and select the one you want
13:41:15  <Alberth> Elukka: yep, new house that needs some fixing before the winter
13:41:34  <Terkhen> sounds important :P
13:42:17  <Alberth> Elukka: but I am sure he doesn't mind if you help him with an updated patch pack ;)
13:42:37  <Elukka> i think i'm more useful drawing sprites :P
13:42:40  <Terkhen> updating a patchpack is a huge PITA
13:43:08  <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: sshd could use a bit more tightening :p
13:44:18  <Elukka> yay this works
13:44:18  <z-MaTRiX> not sure about it
13:44:28  <Elukka> FIRS 0.7 + cargodist <3
13:44:40  <Terkhen> happy testing :P
13:45:20  <Silene> next thing i wondered about is why my busses where having breakdowns so often
13:45:45  <Elukka> wellll it should work
13:45:48  <z-MaTRiX> though interesting its in the secure log
13:45:51  <Elukka> unless cargodist itself was recently broken of course
13:46:03  <z-MaTRiX> session got closed after
13:46:10  <Terkhen> Silene: there is a difficulty setting to modify how much they break, but by default they break as much as they did in the original game
13:46:12  <Terkhen> which is a lot :P
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13:46:30  <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: root login from outside is not that good, normally, you log in as normal user through ssh, and then become root
13:46:49  <Silene> i didn't remember that ...
13:47:00  <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: a cracker then has to break two doors instead of one
13:47:01  <z-MaTRiX> how does SELinux feel about it?
13:47:14  <Silene> default is the "normal setting"?
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13:47:47  <Alberth> no idea, I have sshd disabled entirely :)
13:47:55  <z-MaTRiX> hehe
13:48:49  <z-MaTRiX> but its kindof funny to see random user logins and password guesses
13:49:25  <Alberth> like spamming, but more subtle :)
13:49:51  <andythenorth> he
13:49:55  <z-MaTRiX> a slap after 6 tries btw
13:49:55  * andythenorth has the answer
13:50:05  <andythenorth> guess the question?
13:50:21  <z-MaTRiX> hi andythenorth whatsup?
13:50:29  <Alberth> what does it take for FIRS 1.0 ?
13:50:34  <andythenorth> hmm
13:50:46  <andythenorth> that question is related, hierarchically to my question
13:51:17  <Alberth> rofl
13:52:20  <andythenorth> orly?
13:52:24  <andythenorth> it's not that funny :P
13:52:42  * andythenorth is glad there aren't 255 cargos
13:52:49  * andythenorth has just had 5 new ideas
13:53:04  <andythenorth> in addition to rubber + auto parts, which is not new
13:53:19  <andythenorth> copper -> metal; copper -> electrical components
13:53:28  <andythenorth> electrical components -> factory
13:53:37  <Terkhen> sounds like something for economies
13:53:47  <andythenorth> sounds like something to mostly avoid
13:54:01  <andythenorth> chemicals -> paint factory -> building materials, manufacturing supplies
13:54:19  <andythenorth> not all ideas need to be brought to life
13:54:28  <Silene> what ki should i install. there are so many different
13:54:38  <Terkhen> Silene: ki? what do you mean?
13:54:45  <peter1138> ai
13:54:51  <Silene> ai
13:55:12  * Terkhen does not play with AI usually
13:56:29  <andythenorth> however
13:56:49  <andythenorth> metal + chemicals -> plating works -> mnsp + goods
13:57:30  <andythenorth> metal -> sheet metal works -> building materials, (auto parts - not in default economy)
13:57:41  <andythenorth> two new industries :o
13:57:50  <andythenorth> now I have to learn nml :o
14:02:22  <Terkhen> indeed :P
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14:10:09  <appe> i think in need some help.
14:10:20  <appe> i have yet to discover new industries in openttd
14:10:34  <appe> where do i start? i cant seem to find any grf in the online content list?
14:10:39  <appe> (that i can use, that is)
14:12:02  <Alberth> there are two sets, ECS and FIRS
14:12:10  * andythenorth discovers a list of metal industries
14:12:18  <andythenorth> how about a Screw Mill ?
14:12:28  <Alberth> most industries are built from metal :p
14:12:30  <andythenorth> Chain Works?
14:12:49  <andythenorth> Boiler Shop?
14:13:00  <Alberth> sounds explosive :)
14:13:26  <Terkhen> appe: if you use a industry NewGRF set, you will also need vehicle NewGRF sets that are able to carry the new cargos
14:14:33  <andythenorth>
14:17:46  <Alberth> doesn't work for me
14:18:23  <z-MaTRiX> btw.: why does openttd hang in case clicking on multiplayer servers list when network is stalled?
14:18:51  <appe> Terkhen: ah, i see.
14:19:09  <appe> i was just downloading the town vektor from ECS vectors v1.1.2
14:20:24  <andythenorth> hmm
14:20:34  * andythenorth can't be bothered to learn how to add industries to FIRS
14:20:37  <andythenorth> :P
14:22:05  <Terkhen> for ECS you should check its wiki
14:22:27  <Terkhen> I have not used it, but I know that you need at least some specific vectors, and in a specific order
14:24:06  <Terkhen> most vehicle sets should support ECS
14:25:30  <andythenorth> "nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/plating_works.pnml", line 10: Block with name 'metal_foundryspriteset_ground' has already been defined"
14:25:31  <andythenorth> ??
14:28:46  <appe> ah, i just tried out the town vector
14:28:57  <appe> it seems like i for instance need trucks with tourist support
14:31:18  <Elukka> andy: will you be redrawing the default industries like the steel mill eventually?
14:32:04  <andythenorth> dunno
14:32:27  <Elukka> they're not quite up on the same prettiness level as the FIRS industries
14:32:36  <andythenorth> most are better than FIRS
14:32:48  <andythenorth> the original graphics are better than most of mine
14:33:10  <Elukka> lies
14:33:15  * llugo disagrees
14:33:26  <Elukka> they're also somewhat different in style
14:33:40  <andythenorth> oh :(
14:33:53  <andythenorth> I have been trying to improve my style to match the original
14:33:58  <andythenorth> I thought I'd got close
14:34:09  <Elukka> i think FIRS is very compatible with TTRS and swedish houses and DB set and stuff like that
14:34:10  <Elukka> i wouldn't
14:34:14  <Elukka> i like your style better
14:34:18  <Terkhen> andythenorth: you are using THIS_ID(spriteset_ground) elsewhere already
14:34:31  <Terkhen> rename them to THIS_ID(spriteset_ground_1) and so on
14:34:34  <andythenorth> how is my style different to original? (so I can improve)
14:34:54  <Elukka> but i don't wanna, i don't want it to change :P
14:35:18  <Elukka> i think yours is more realistic and detailed
14:35:40  * Terkhen agrees with Elukka, although that might have to do with me playing with OpenGFX instead of ttdoriginal
14:36:10  <appe> oboy
14:36:12  <appe> this was fantastic
14:36:15  <Elukka> if i'm gonna make a screenshot to show how openttd looks nice i'll take it with FIRS and TTRS or swedish houses and opengfx+ terrain :P
14:36:27  <Terkhen> :)
14:37:07  <andythenorth> it's a bit depressing tbh
14:37:14  <andythenorth> I thought I'd figured out the original style
14:38:16  <Elukka> <Miguel> he's wrong
14:38:21  <Elukka> see, random people think yours looks better than default too
14:39:05  <Elukka> opengfx trees are also more in home with the style of FIRS and TTRS than they are with default, i think
14:39:20  <andythenorth> hmm
14:39:30  <andythenorth> not much I can say to this
14:39:40  <andythenorth> my goal is to replicate the original style almost 100%
14:39:45  <andythenorth> looks like I failed :(
14:40:03  <Elukka> no, you improved on it
14:40:04  <andythenorth> some industries have been redrawn twice already for this goal
14:40:09  <Elukka> like many artists did
14:40:18  <andythenorth> most didn't improve on it
14:40:24  <andythenorth> most damaged it :P
14:41:11  <Elukka> TTRS, swedish houses, DBset, 2cc, opengfx trees, to name a few that pop to mind
14:41:14  <Elukka> improved upon it in very similar style
14:42:54  <Terkhen> the style is similar, but the sprites are better :P
14:43:04  <Elukka> i think moving it back to the default style would be a mistake
14:43:39  <andythenorth> I'm not sure even how I'd do it
14:43:44  <andythenorth> I've done everything I can think of
14:44:01  <andythenorth> the style is pretty much an exact pixel-by-pixel clone of original
14:44:06  <Elukka> you've already surpassed it in quality, and most other good grfs do the same
14:44:14  <Alberth> I think you are more careful with shades; the original seems so flat at times
14:44:37  <Elukka> keep improving however you can but don't make it weaker just to emulate the original game
14:44:54  <andythenorth> hmm
14:45:06  * andythenorth is mostly baffled
14:45:19  <Alberth> Elukka: it is not 'weaker', it's 'different'
14:45:32  <Elukka> well, true
14:45:56  <Elukka> a matter of taste
14:47:32  <appe> hm
14:47:49  <appe> i cant seem to find where i get the proper trains for the right ecs grf
14:48:19  <appe> oh, hold on
14:50:05  <appe> yes, i cant find it :(
14:50:32  <Elukka> i don't mean to disparage the efforts of opengfx artists; their job was to create something similar to the original graphics
14:51:26  <Terkhen> appe: most train sets shuld support it; 2cc, ukrs, nars, opengfx+ trains...
14:51:53  <appe> ok. just adding the esc basic vector gives me the industry, but doesnt change the train carts.
14:51:57  <Elukka> dbsetxl has an extra grf for ECS support too
14:53:14  <appe> ah, there we are
14:53:16  <appe> thank you :)
15:02:17  <Terkhen> :)
15:12:02  <appe> yet
15:12:05  <appe> im using the 2cc
15:12:16  <appe> what train works with the multiple unit wagon?
15:12:47  <Elukka> multiple units
15:12:55  <Elukka>
15:15:51  <appe> there doesnt seem to be any train available in the same set that can use the wagon?
15:16:18  <appe> ah
15:16:19  <appe> oh!
15:17:16  <appe> crap.
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15:19:56  <appe> nope, i cant get it to work.
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15:32:08  <appe> :DDD
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15:35:59  <Terkhen> appe:
15:39:18  <Elukka> okay. still puzzled by 2cc balance
15:40:01  <Elukka> multiple units are fast, powerful and really really cheap to run
15:40:14  <Elukka> why ever buy a passenger locomotive that costs 10 times more
15:43:18  <Alberth> for its looks?
15:43:53  <Elukka> seems a tad impractical
15:45:37  <Elukka> i do a bunch of things just for looks, but several times more running costs for no increase in performance...
15:46:23  <Elukka> hm. even the multiple unit wagons are much cheaper to run
15:46:34  <MNIM> elukka: did you factor in carrying capacity?
15:46:51  <Elukka> seems to be similar?
15:48:06  <Elukka> actually the multiple units carry more
15:50:25  <Elukka> locomotive hauled train with worse performance carries ~250 passengers at a running cost of ~100k/yr
15:50:39  <Elukka> equal length MU carries about 290 and costs less than 6k/yr to run
15:51:00  <Terkhen> yes, it's a bit crazy
15:51:33  <Elukka> it kind of breaks things for me :(
15:51:40  <Elukka> any other set out there with decent support for FIRS?
15:51:45  <Elukka> kinda boring when everything looks like coal :P
15:52:15  <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Trains :P
15:52:32  <Alberth> I was going to suggest that too :)
15:53:09  <Terkhen> I don't think that any other major train sets besides 2cc and opengfx+ trains have good sprite support for FIRS
15:53:18  <Terkhen> and 2cc support is already outdated by months
15:54:22  <Elukka> hm.
15:54:31  <appe> hm..
15:54:41  <Alberth> I have FIRS 0.5.1 if you want :p
15:55:33  <__ln__> at what point does passport control take place on EuroStar?
15:56:48  <Alberth> halfway, and you have to walk back :p
15:57:16  <__ln__> great
15:57:30  <Alberth> quite likely at both sides
15:57:38  <Elukka> it'd be nice if the missing cargo sprite graphic used iron instead of coal
15:57:42  <Elukka> less convenient for development though
15:57:50  <Elukka> but for most cargoes it'd look less aggressively wrong
15:58:19  <Alberth> they use black sheets for covering the cargoes
15:58:29  <Elukka> ha :P
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15:59:18  <Terkhen> Elukka: in nml it is quite simple to use a different default sprite for missing cargos
15:59:24  <Terkhen> I still use coal in opengfx+ road vehicles, though :P
15:59:38  <Terkhen> but since I had no feedback since latest release I'm assuming that it is done :)
15:59:55  <Elukka> i wouldn't have a clue how to do that
15:59:59  <Elukka> i don't even know what nml is! :P
16:00:46  <Terkhen> nml == simpler thing to do newgrfs
16:00:53  <Terkhen> it is what CETS will use IIRC
16:01:05  <Elukka> reminds me i should do some drawing
16:01:09  <Terkhen> now you can suggest to use a better default knowing that it should be simple :P
16:01:23  <Elukka> i will!
16:01:31  <Elukka> i think most cargoes are brown
16:01:35  <Elukka> certainly more are brown than black
16:01:42  <Terkhen> yes
16:02:00  <Terkhen> with brown, you can at least say that the wagon is dark
16:02:19  *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has joined #openttd
16:02:56  <Elukka> okay, another question.. which train sets besides those mentioned have functional, if not graphical support, for current FIRS? (0.7)
16:03:38  <andythenorth> NARS 2
16:03:40  <andythenorth> UKRS 2
16:03:59  <andythenorth> OpenGFX + trains
16:11:31  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: how important do you think it is to shorten the 4 axle compartment coaches by 1 lu? i'd chalk it up to conflicting sources and be done with it (being built over a long stretch of time by 2 railway companies and all), but if they absolutely have to be shorter i'll do it some time later
16:11:38  <Elukka> if they're okay i'll get the post coach done first
16:11:51  <Elukka> otherwise i'm gonna work on some other wagons or engines for a change
16:15:49  <andythenorth> is it annoying to have two industries name 'Metal..[something]'
16:15:59  <andythenorth> mostly from a mini-map point of view?
16:16:58  <Terkhen> IMO not, it is easier to find them :)
16:17:09  <andythenorth> ok
16:18:54  <Elukka> whatever you do, by god draw them in your style
16:19:05  <Elukka> i honestly think you're among the top ttd artists
16:19:05  <andythenorth> hmm
16:19:23  <andythenorth> my style is 100% copied from Simon Foster
16:19:28  <andythenorth> it's slavish copying
16:19:38  <andythenorth> there is nothing original
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16:20:21  <andythenorth> it's probably borderline a GPL violation
16:20:47  <__ln__> did Simon Foster license his work under GPL?
16:20:53  <andythenorth> nope
16:20:56  <andythenorth> absolutely not
16:24:21  <Elukka> style can't be copyrighted
16:28:57  <__ln__> Elukka: depends
16:29:18  <Elukka> works are copyrighted, but you can't say someone can't emulate your style
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16:31:31  <__ln__> again it depends
16:31:58  <Elukka> in which case could style fall under copyright?
16:32:51  <__ln__> when it's practically the same as the original
16:33:20  <Elukka> the work itself or the just the style?
16:33:33  <__ln__> the work
16:33:45  <Elukka> well that's copying the entire work, not just the styel
16:33:47  <Elukka> style
16:34:18  <__ln__> i'd say the distinction between those two is not as clear as you imply
16:34:57  <andythenorth> the reality is that, analysed as a bitmap, some blocks of pixels will be identical to TTD which is copyright
16:35:18  <Elukka> if i paint an apple and you copy the exact same apple i guess you might be breaking copyright
16:35:26  <Elukka> (though i'm not even sure you would)
16:35:52  <Elukka> if i paint an apple and you paint an orange in the exact same style, even if some brush strokes are identical, you're most certainly not broking copyright
16:35:59  <Elukka> breaking
16:36:38  <Elukka> andy, analyzed at the chemical level many paintings have identical parts :P
16:43:57  <Alberth> not really imho, even batches paint from the same factory can be distinguished from each other
16:44:33  <__ln__> Elukka: do you contribute to the finnish wikipedia?
16:44:51  <Elukka> were ttd not palette-limited, and were there no color limits on computers at all, there would be very slight differences inttd sprites as well
16:44:54  <Elukka> ln, no, why?
16:45:17  <Elukka> all i've done on wiki is fix some easy mistakes a couple times on the english wiki, but i haven't even registered an account
16:45:40  <__ln__> Elukka: your approach and attitude to copyright just resembled theirs.
16:46:20  <Elukka> in which way?
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16:47:26  <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you know where the industry ID defines are for FIRS?
16:47:41  <andythenorth> they're not in 'defines.pnml'
16:48:15  <__ln__> Elukka: denial of any possibility of copyright infringiment unless it's your own work that's being infringed
16:48:32  <Elukka> whut.
16:48:47  <Elukka> it's just true that style alone is not copyrighted
16:49:10  <Elukka> do you think there could be a copyright violation if i drew an apple and you drew an orange by emulating my style?
16:50:51  <__ln__> Elukka: no, but if you drew an apple asn a ttd sprite, and i drew another apple in your style, then it would be more ambiguous.
16:51:19  <Terkhen> andythenorth: let me check
16:51:27  <Elukka> long as you draw it rather than literally copypasting mine...
16:52:05  <__ln__> Elukka: yes, that's exactly the attitude i'm talking about.
16:52:57  * Pinkbeast detects a giant straw man being used on Elukka
16:53:35  <Terkhen> andythenorth: item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, smithy_forge, 6) <--- the 6
16:53:43  <andythenorth> oh
16:53:43  <Elukka> it might be almost identical to mine due to technical limitations (limited resolution and palette), but unless i could somehow show that it was actually copypasted i wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court
16:53:44  <andythenorth> ok
16:53:49  <andythenorth> so
16:54:01  <Terkhen> I prefer to note them as 0x06 to make them more visible, but we probably didn't check it after the conversion
16:54:02  <andythenorth> to find the list of IDs, I have to read every file :O
16:54:14  <andythenorth> that is awful
16:54:17  <andythenorth> I need to fix that
16:54:17  <Terkhen> a industry_defines.pnml file would make sense
16:54:22  <Elukka> if art was so limited by copyright that something that looks similar would fall afoul of it, it'd be pretty terrible
16:54:23  <__ln__> Elukka: whether it was technically copy-pasted doesn't matter at all
16:54:24  <Terkhen> #define SMITHY_FORGE_ID 0x06
16:54:29  <Terkhen> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, smithy_forge, SMITHY_FORGE_ID)
16:54:32  <andythenorth> exactly
16:54:46  <andythenorth> this is worthwhile refactoring, even though FIRS industries are mostly 'done'
16:54:47  <Elukka> sure it does
16:54:54  <Elukka> if it's copypasted you're stealing mine, if you draw it it's yours
16:55:03  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I agree :)
16:55:20  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I wonder if it can just be copied from the nfo version :D :P
16:55:28  <andythenorth> I think it probably can
16:55:29  <Elukka> if i take a photograph and you use it as reference for a drawing, you still own the copyright to your drawing
16:55:31  <Terkhen> it probably can be adapted
16:55:47  <Terkhen> change the extension, add the gpl header if it is missing and so on
16:55:58  <andythenorth> I'll do it
16:56:13  <Terkhen> ok :)
16:56:18  <__ln__> Elukka: and if i paint a painting and you take a photograpth, ....
16:56:37  <Elukka> of the painting?
16:56:41  <__ln__> yes
16:56:53  <Elukka> hmm. i believe that would count as a reproduction of the painting
16:57:00  <Elukka> i couldn't claim the painting being photographed is mine
16:58:03  <__ln__> correct
16:58:22  <Sacro> depends how much effort went into the photo
16:58:29  <Sacro> if there was composition and lighting and such...
16:59:25  <Elukka> yeah, that'd probably count as an original work
16:59:36  <Elukka> or a derivative maybe?
17:00:12  <Elukka> but ln, it doesn't change that if i draw a ttd apple and you draw a similar apple, no copyright is being broken
17:01:55  <__ln__> Elukka: if i intensively look at the apple you drew and draw my own within the same very limited constraints (resolution, palette), then i wouldn't be to confident a court wouldn't decide i am breaking the copyright.
17:02:05  <Elukka> you drawing the same subject as me in the same medium is still an original work
17:02:22  <Elukka> how would either of us show that you did or didn't look at my apple?
17:03:44  <Elukka> in theory, i suppose, you would indeed be infringing copyright in that case
17:03:46  <Elukka> in practice it's irrelevant
17:03:51  <__ln__> if i don't deny it
17:04:07  <Elukka> well then they might judge against you
17:04:34  <__ln__> yes, my point exactly
17:05:21  <andythenorth> Terkhen: it's not as easy as I thought :(
17:05:26  <andythenorth> nml doesn't use hex?
17:06:22  <Terkhen> you can use 0x06
17:06:32  <Terkhen> but by default it uses dec
17:06:47  <Elukka> i guess we are in agreement then
17:07:08  <Elukka> simply drawing a similar ttd apple without staring intensely at mine clearly wouldn't be copyright infringement though
17:07:15  <Elukka> Pinkbeast: have you had a chance to try ts2012 yet?
17:07:29  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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17:07:44  * SpComb patents TTD apples
17:08:07  * Terkhen patents them in a different country under a slightly different name, and sues
17:08:47  <Elukka> hum. the most recent version of NARS2 is from 2009, but it still works with recent FIRS?
17:08:53  <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Yes... new graphics engine doesn't work at all, old one runs still more like a drain. It may have to work until I upgrade rei
17:09:01  <Pinkbeast> *wait
17:09:14  <Elukka> that's unfortunate
17:09:18  <Elukka> mine works way worse than it should too
17:09:33  <Elukka> it looks nice but it's not very playable with the new engine
17:09:35  <Elukka> feels like trainz :P
17:09:48  <Pinkbeast> I gather shadows are the killer with the new engine, if you turn them off it's better.
17:10:12  <Pinkbeast> If the old one was "the same but with cab roll" I'd be happy, but the frame rate's gone from tolerable to intolerable in places
17:10:23  <Pinkbeast> I was going to upgrade rei anyway, so it's not the end of the world.
17:10:55  <Elukka> it runs badly on absolute minimum setings
17:10:57  <Elukka> settings
17:11:19  <Elukka> there's people with absolute top of the line ridiculously expensive computers who have it run terribly too
17:11:23  <Elukka> i hope they patch it soon
17:11:29  <Pinkbeast> Well, likewise. We shall see.
17:11:37  <Pinkbeast> Otherwise I guess it's back to OpenBVE :-)
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17:16:54  <andythenorth> Elukka: NARS 2 works fine with FIRS
17:17:01  <andythenorth> I'm playing a game at the moment with it
17:17:04  <Elukka> interesting
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17:32:38  * andythenorth is bored of copy paste
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17:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22959 /trunk/src/lang/finnish.txt:
17:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
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17:52:27  <Elukka>
17:52:30  <Elukka> well that wasn't what i was looking for
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18:02:23  * andythenorth has tweaked FIRS metal chain
18:02:34  <Terkhen> tweaked how?
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18:05:21  <andythenorth> added a new industry, renamed Foundry to Workshop to be a little more accurate
18:05:27  <andythenorth> also added acceptance of chemicals
18:05:44  <andythenorth> chemicals are very widely used in FIRS :)
18:06:15  <andythenorth> the new industry is Metal Fab. Plant
18:06:17  <Terkhen> hmm... let's see
18:06:28  <andythenorth> produces building materials, and in future, auto parts
18:07:09  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
18:08:02  * andythenorth ponders intro date for metal fab plant
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18:11:09  <andythenorth> he
18:11:15  <andythenorth> the minimap is quite insane for FIRS :D
18:11:21  <andythenorth> 49 industry types
18:12:01  <Terkhen> andythenorth: metal fabrication plant and metal workshop use the same minimap colour
18:12:07  <andythenorth> yup
18:12:11  <Terkhen> also, I'm not sure if having them accept exactly the same cargos is a good idea
18:12:16  <andythenorth> I wondered that
18:12:19  <andythenorth> but it's kind of fine
18:12:21  <Alberth> limit is 64 industries iirc
18:12:42  <andythenorth> Terkhen: if industries had 3 outputs, there would only be 1 type here :P
18:12:43  <Terkhen> they feel too similar (even when ignoring that they are currently using the same sprites :P)
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18:13:03  <andythenorth> they are pretty similar
18:13:06  <andythenorth> I'm open to suggestions
18:13:17  <andythenorth> this is basically a side effect of splitting goods into more categories
18:13:31  <andythenorth> although I didn't add it for that reason :)
18:13:44  <Terkhen> IMO either one of them should change chemicals for something else
18:13:56  <andythenorth> have a look, see what you think
18:14:01  <andythenorth> they could just use only metal
18:14:03  <Terkhen> yes, I'm checking it now :)
18:14:10  <Terkhen> no, using two input cargos is fine
18:14:13  <andythenorth>
18:17:21  <andythenorth> Terkhen: patch the game for 3 output cargos, I'll revert the new industry out of FIRS :D
18:18:09  <Terkhen> I'm fine with them being two industries
18:18:14  <Terkhen> but they shouldn't be so similar
18:18:26  <andythenorth> find any other options?
18:18:30  <andythenorth> could cut chemicals from one
18:18:35  <Terkhen> nope
18:18:49  <Terkhen> ask in the forums, I'm not that good at thinking chains :P
18:19:10  <andythenorth> I rely on Eddi|zuHause2 - and he already made his suggestion (factory)
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18:27:47  <Terkhen> what does that do?
18:28:04  <andythenorth> metal + mnsp -> goods
18:29:05  <andythenorth> other ideas
18:29:11  <andythenorth> introduce 'tin' cargo
18:29:15  <andythenorth> tin -> metal works
18:29:21  <andythenorth> introduce 'paint' cargo
18:29:37  <andythenorth> chemicals -> paint -> metal works
18:29:48  <andythenorth> paint -> builders yard also
18:30:18  <Terkhen> confusing :)
18:30:32  <Terkhen> sounds like stuff for economies
18:30:51  <Terkhen> I'm thinking that maybe the new metal building could replace the old one in a "building" economy, or in less industry heavy economies
18:31:44  <andythenorth> the fab plant is definitely intended to produce auto parts in a future economy
18:31:57  <andythenorth> right now I added it because metal is under-represented in the main economy
18:32:03  <andythenorth> chemicals could stay or be removed
18:32:07  <andythenorth> from that industry
18:32:37  <Terkhen> time for dinner, bbl
18:32:47  <andythenorth> enjoy
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18:41:11  <andythenorth> he
18:41:14  <andythenorth> rivers are so stupid :)
18:41:25  <andythenorth> I can just build whatever I want over them
18:41:36  <andythenorth> I guess bulldoze = culvert
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19:09:08  <Terkhen> andythenorth: use a basecost newgrf
19:09:28  <andythenorth> it's more that I wonder where the river goes when I bulldoze 1 tile of it :)
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19:34:54  * andythenorth is still puzzled
19:35:06  <andythenorth> compare FIRS textile mill + original ttd paper mill
19:35:13  <andythenorth> identical style imo
19:35:42  <Alberth> let me find some pictures first
19:36:35  <andythenorth> if anything, original version is more detailed
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19:51:11  <Alberth>  light/dark differences are much bigger with textile (which I like btw)
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19:52:33  <Alberth> also, you have thicker 'circles' around the chimney, with bigger colour differences
19:53:31  <Alberth> your buildings have sharper edges at least compared to original industries
19:53:43  <Alberth> houses may be different
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20:01:59  <Alberth> updated the image with original TTDX
20:02:28  <Alberth> original is closer to your style, but still different in the way I described imho
20:05:47  <Alberth> look at your lighter rooftop walls, eg
20:06:08  <Alberth> andythenorth:  ^
20:06:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: that's an old FIRS
20:06:31  <andythenorth> :)
20:06:33  <andythenorth>
20:07:20  <Alberth> lies
20:07:26  <andythenorth> :P
20:07:39  <Alberth> it's 0.6.5-beta-3
20:07:50  <andythenorth> aaaaancient
20:08:09  <andythenorth> I told that 0.7.x has about 250 improvements or so on 0.6.x
20:09:45  <andythenorth> :)
20:09:48  <Alberth> :)
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20:10:04  <Alberth> new mill is very close to original style imho
20:10:23  <andythenorth> it's almost a pixel-by-pixel clone :P
20:10:38  <andythenorth> I did draw by hand, but with a very magnified original nearby :P
20:11:18  <andythenorth> Elukka: ^^
20:13:04  * Alberth must get used to the new style
20:13:42  <Alberth> they blend in with the original very well
20:14:15  * andythenorth hopes so ;)
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20:40:55  * andythenorth wonders
20:41:12  <andythenorth> can ships be taught to prefer drive side when a waterway is >1 tile
20:42:57  <Elukka> hmm... one thing that makes them better than the originals in my opinion is the individual tiles and their arrangement
20:43:13  <Elukka> hey, andy, might i suggest reducing the running costs of crawlers in HEQS a tad?
20:43:37  <andythenorth> maybe
20:43:45  <Elukka> constantly running at capacity on a 20 tile route and can't make a profit
20:43:47  <andythenorth> they're kind of pointless eye candy anyway
20:43:55  <Elukka> it'd be nice if they were more useful
20:44:10  <Elukka> i'd just give them low running costs
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20:50:01  <andythenorth> Elukka:
20:50:50  <Elukka> :)
20:51:04  * andythenorth -> bed
20:51:08  <andythenorth> good night
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21:03:18  <Terkhen> good night
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21:59:49  <__ln__> is there some preferred place to find scientific articles about computer science, written in german?  (other than the obvious
22:00:51  <peter1138> /dev/null
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22:12:05  <__ln__> peter1138: it's not very readable.
22:13:12  <peter1138> neither is german
22:14:29  <planetmaker> <-- maybe there, __ln__
22:14:33  <planetmaker> but I don't know
22:14:46  <Progman>
22:16:18  <planetmaker> certainly. But I'd not call it "scientific articles" mostly
22:16:37  <planetmaker> though they're a high-quality publisher
22:17:54  <__ln__> thanks, pm and Pm
22:18:07  <planetmaker> :-D
22:19:38  <__ln__> i'm searching for articles about software localization, so there's a particularly good reason to expect such could have been written in non-english.
22:19:52  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
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22:26:58  <frosch123> cs papers are always written in english
22:27:02  <frosch123> same as for math
22:27:39  <frosch123> you might only be able to find diploma theses or so in german
22:28:39  <valhalla1w> frosch123: not in france
22:28:53  <valhalla1w> but in germany, you're probably right
22:29:17  <planetmaker> in real science also french certainly write English
22:29:28  <valhalla1w> not their PhD theses
22:29:33  *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
22:29:33  <planetmaker> yeah, well
22:29:42  <valhallasw> of course, published articles are still in English
22:29:56  <valhallasw> although I believe there are still a few French journals around
22:30:08  <frosch123> here phd are written in german as well
22:30:16  <planetmaker> we were talking about articles. not thesises
22:30:25  * planetmaker writes in English
22:31:01  <frosch123> though there might be quite some percentage of cs phds written in english
22:31:47  <frosch123> but that is hard to tell for me, as there was quite a high percentage of foreign guys writing cs phds at my university
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22:34:14  <valhallasw> the Comptes rendus de l'Académie des sciences are still pretty much in french, though
22:36:32  <valhallasw> (although they publish on natural sciences and not on math/cs)
22:37:36  <__ln__> did Dijkstra write (any significant) things in dutch?
22:38:02  <__ln__> at least P and V are not english.
22:38:47  <valhallasw> I don't think there is much scientific literature in dutch, really
22:39:15  <valhallasw> or, well, for the natural sciences and math etc
22:39:28  <valhallasw> for the social sciences I can imagine there is some
22:40:00  <valhallasw> but for physics and math, most would be in german/french (early 1900s) / english
22:40:45  <__ln__> /chinese (late 00s)
22:41:19  <valhallasw> I meant publications from NL, specifically
22:41:31  <__ln__> yes, me too
22:41:40  <__ln__> predicting the future
22:41:48  <valhallasw> the 00s have passed already ;-)
22:42:15  <__ln__> first century of the 2000s
22:42:23  <valhallasw>
22:42:55  <valhallasw> but these are mainly lectures, I think
22:42:57  <valhallasw>
22:43:16  <planetmaker> good night
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22:44:32  <__ln__> "Kortste bomen uit een graph" like .. "Shortest trees from a graph"??
22:44:46  <valhallasw> yes
22:44:52  <valhallasw> shortest path algorithm
22:46:29  <__ln__> well that's pretty significant
22:46:29  <valhallasw> "Ein algol-60-uebersetzer fuer die x1 : (zeitschrift fuer moderne rechentechnik und automation m.t.w., _8(1961), p 54-56, p 115-119) (1961)Open access"
22:46:38  <valhallasw> __ln__: it's just the text from a lecture
22:46:40  <valhallasw> it's not the article
22:46:48  <__ln__> sad
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23:24:20  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:53:29  <__ln__> why so silent?

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