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00:13:55 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-142-218.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:52 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-054-253.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:44:55 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.84.107] has joined #openttd 00:55:03 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:903f:dc0a:c832:57f9] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:49:47 *** supermop__- [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:50:24 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:41 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.84.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:54 *** CIA-2 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 03:43:58 *** CIA-12 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd 03:57:33 *** Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> larich.oftc.net quits: CIA-12, DabuYuTimeOut 03:57:51 *** CIA-6 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd 03:58:51 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.189] has joined #openttd 04:24:49 *** supermop__- [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:48:38 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 04:57:05 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B72D40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:03:53 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72CC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:09:15 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:27 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:49:02 <Terkhen> good morning 05:54:02 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 05:59:07 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has joined #openttd 06:24:57 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:46:27 <Korenn> Terkhen: w00t, did I read the backlog right, you worked on the subsidies patch? 06:48:55 <Terkhen> it's kind of finished 06:49:06 <Terkhen> I only need to modify the subsidies themselves 06:49:11 <Terkhen> but all the prerrequisites are done 06:55:58 <Korenn> yeah I read that 06:56:34 <Korenn> you discounted picking high producing unserviced industries and generating a subsidy from that? 06:56:50 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 06:58:09 <Terkhen> I have not discounted anything... but after a night's rest I'm wondering if I'm trying to do too much with a single patch; maybe it should just fix the choosing of all possible sources and destinations without the current artificial restrictions 06:58:21 <Terkhen> a different patch could take care of better choosing of subsidies 06:58:33 <Korenn> true 06:58:42 <Korenn> or it could even simply recreate the old behaviour first 06:58:54 <Terkhen> the new patch would take into account distance, production and anything else that is considered 06:59:13 <Terkhen> yes, that's what I meant... old behavior except that it does not use TE to make assumptions about destination 06:59:22 <Korenn> ah :) 06:59:34 <Terkhen> as a result of that assumption, we don't have mail subsidies for example 06:59:42 <Terkhen> I never noticed until I checked the code, but there is a FS task about it 07:02:06 <norbert79> Morning 07:02:42 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:03:28 <Terkhen> good morning norbert79 07:03:38 <norbert79> Morning Terkhen :) 07:09:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.168.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:05 <planetmaker> moin 07:19:11 <norbert79> moinú 07:19:13 <norbert79> -ú 07:21:35 <Korenn> Terkhen: eventually, subsidies could be used to stimulate building industry chains: generate subsidies to ship secondary or tertiary cargo that isn't being created yet, with a much longer running / completion time 07:22:25 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker 07:22:48 <Terkhen> Korenn: makes sense, more reasons to keep it separate from what I'm doing now as it does not seem as simple as I thought first 07:25:05 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-054-253.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:25:12 <norbert79> Something different: Ubuntuception :) http://imageshack.us/f/839/ubunception.png 07:25:20 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:28:47 <Terkhen> bbl 07:30:07 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 07:32:38 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224508]] 07:38:43 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:43:38 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 07:44:04 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 07:50:01 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:16:25 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-251-176.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 08:17:51 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:29 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-251-176.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:34 <b_jonas> Korenn: I don't seed why you'd need subsidies for that. The way goods pays a lot already stimulates building industry chains. 08:59:22 <b_jonas> Also, an industry chain when you transmit from multiple primary industries to a single factory lets you have a single secondary industry that produces more, which alone lets you have more efficient train lines. 09:01:04 <Terkhen> that's one of the arguments against making subisides more complex: they are usually ignored by everyone 09:02:34 <b_jonas> maybe if they were active for more than one year, that would help 09:03:30 <b_jonas> also, perhaps they should specify only one of the source and the destination 09:03:38 <b_jonas> but I'm not so sure about this latetr 09:04:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AB4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:04:39 <Terkhen> sounds complicated :) 09:05:30 <b_jonas> making them all last four years wouldn't be too complicated 09:06:18 <norbert79> b_jonas: Aye... I also started ignoring susidaries, because the compensation given was useless. It would be nice gaining more support from local towns when winning a subsidary... 09:06:19 <Ammler> Brianetta: openttdcoop.ppcis.org is dead :'-( 09:06:23 <norbert79> For example 09:08:29 <norbert79> b_jonas: Just think about it: You are being asked for a road to make. What you get: You have to build the road, you have to start the buses, you have to make everything, and for that you get a bonus of 3.5% for each transfer... Very "charming" especially for smaller towns 09:08:59 <b_jonas> norbert79: yep 09:09:16 <norbert79> and you are also limited on placing the stations, because one wrong move, and your rating will fall down into the dumps 09:09:44 <b_jonas> yep, I'm more careful with stations these days 09:10:13 <b_jonas> sometimes I build a 2x6 passenger station in a town before I start to terraform nearby, just so that I can restore my reputation later 09:10:22 <norbert79> so the compensation should be rethought in my opinion 09:10:31 <b_jonas> or build small passenger service buses or trains just to increase rep 09:11:17 <b_jonas> but I like that, town reps do make the game more interesting 09:11:24 <norbert79> in the end you will end up regaining the money within 5-10 years, where the bonus is being payed for a year 09:11:35 <b_jonas> yep 09:11:49 <norbert79> so no wonder everyone is ignoring subsidaries 09:12:15 <b_jonas> in fact, for most of the buses the big win is not how much the bus gains now but how it makes the city grow so you can make large airports to it 09:12:33 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 09:13:01 <norbert79> b_jonas: Sure, but this only limits the usage of subsidaries 09:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> IMHO, subsidies should be tied into a scriptable goals framework 09:16:20 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Creating different types of subs this way? 09:16:28 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Like giving specific bonuses 09:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> for example 09:16:52 <norbert79> that would make sense 09:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> or some tutorial-like behaviour like "first, pick these two cities and introduce a passenger service" 09:17:33 <Terkhen> yes, I also think that changes of the level you are suggesting should go into a goal framework 09:17:43 <Terkhen> I just want to fix "vanilla" subsidies a bit 09:18:04 <norbert79> if it doesn't modifies original behaviour, unless set through advanced options 09:18:09 <norbert79> I would like it 09:18:55 <b_jonas> Increase them to four years! 09:19:51 <Terkhen> subsidy duration and maximum distance between source and destination could be easily turned into advanced settings 09:20:02 <Terkhen> but we have too many advanced settings already :P 09:20:25 <planetmaker> :-D 09:20:30 <planetmaker> Newgrf-interface :-P 09:20:38 * planetmaker hides 09:20:43 <norbert79> lol 09:20:53 <planetmaker> as town variables 09:20:55 <Terkhen> we should just make a huge NewGRF engine and let users build their own game 09:21:03 <planetmaker> sounds good :-P 09:21:25 * Terkhen calls the engine C++ 09:21:31 <Terkhen> wow, it's done 09:21:36 <norbert79> lol, Terkhen, I think players would actually like it :) Yet it sounds indeed good, since it almost takes ages for one configuring adabvnced options and NewGRF settings for making a specific game :) 09:22:04 <Terkhen> maybe they should be openttd.cfg only options 09:22:05 <norbert79> like if I want to start a US transport scenario with FIRS for example... 09:22:30 <norbert79> Terkhen: Nah, hiding everything in openttd.cfg is not really good neither... 09:22:39 <norbert79> Terkhen: What about a seperate option for this? 09:22:52 <Terkhen> IMO it is advanced enough, like the pathfinder settings 09:22:54 <norbert79> or having the settings divided into tabs 09:23:04 <norbert79> and not just listed 09:23:29 <Terkhen> IIRC *someone* had a project to fix setting display once and for all 09:23:45 <Terkhen> I wonder what happened :P 09:23:50 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why do I have the feeling you are talking about yourself? :) 09:23:58 <Terkhen> I don't know, it wasn't me 09:24:15 <Terkhen> if it was me, "lazyness" would be what happened 09:24:26 <Terkhen> I wouldn't need to wonder much :P 09:24:31 <norbert79> hehhe 09:26:11 <planetmaker> "once and for all"? 09:26:18 <planetmaker> is there such solution anywhere? 09:26:46 <norbert79> Well, a Firefox kind of a look (Tabs on top, options listed, and divided by lines) would be ok 09:27:05 <norbert79> just a different view 09:27:18 <planetmaker> that's what we had before ;-) 09:27:20 <Terkhen> :P 09:27:37 <norbert79> Guess you need to reimplement it, since it's easy getting lost :) 09:27:42 <Terkhen> we need an advanced setting to decide how to display advanced settings 09:27:48 <Terkhen> because I prefer what we have now to tabs :P 09:27:50 <norbert79> Aw, come on :DD 09:28:03 <planetmaker> I prefer the current view, too 09:28:07 <planetmaker> we'd have too many tabs 09:28:12 <norbert79> why? 09:28:22 <norbert79> Only the main categories would be needed in tabs 09:28:28 <planetmaker> yes. Did you count them? 09:28:35 <norbert79> not since 1.0.5 09:28:36 <planetmaker> And try to put their names next to eachother? 09:28:47 <planetmaker> it'd be wider than my screen 09:29:06 <norbert79> why not using icons instead of the names? :) 09:29:47 <norbert79> and only make the names visible when hovering over them with the mouse 09:29:52 <planetmaker> I still don't see the advantage over current view even now 09:30:04 <planetmaker> you just hide everything except the category by clicking the (+) 09:30:06 <planetmaker> or (-) 09:30:11 <Terkhen> you need to know what the icons mean then 09:30:12 <planetmaker> in the tree 09:30:20 <Terkhen> might be clear for "vehicles" not so clear for "interface" 09:30:25 <norbert79> Terkhen: "<norbert79> and only make the names visible when hovering over them with the mouse" 09:30:32 <norbert79> Like with the main tools 09:30:52 <planetmaker> norbert79: but where's then the difference to now? 09:31:02 <norbert79> It would be less confusing... 09:31:02 <Terkhen> advanced options are complex enough already to force the user to look at tooltips just for category types 09:31:16 <planetmaker> the tree view gives you all opions quickly accessible. nicely structured 09:31:18 <Brianetta> Ammler: ppcis.org is dead. 09:31:18 <norbert79> The density of the information is too much for me despite (+) and (-) 09:31:33 <norbert79> it's just too thick 09:31:51 <planetmaker> that's why it's "advanced" options 09:31:54 <planetmaker> normally not needed 09:32:20 <planetmaker> there was the idea to introduce different "levels" of 'advanced' which shows more or less options 09:32:22 <norbert79> Considering how much plus the game already has, Advanced options is being part of "MUST" 09:32:30 <Terkhen> now that I remember, there was a big post about completely remaking all options GUI at the forums 09:35:17 <norbert79> Terkhen: Got link to that? 09:35:26 <norbert79> I would like to go through of it 09:36:39 <b_jonas> planetmaker: rather then different levels, I think there should be different sets of defaults, possibly savable, and at least two sets of defaults distributed with ottd: namely a ttd/ttdp-compatibility, and a modern set. 09:36:50 <b_jonas> the modern set could change in every release. 09:37:27 <b_jonas> the problem is, historically many advanced settings default to compatibility, which doesn't help new players (unfamiliar with ttd and ottd) too much. 09:38:04 <planetmaker> that is changed from time to time ;-) 09:38:13 <norbert79> b_jonas: And since too many options already it makes them just confused, which soon can make the mood to go away for creating new servers 09:38:33 <planetmaker> openttd doesn't behave so much as TTD anymore with its default settings 09:38:46 <norbert79> b_jonas: and then they go back to CoD and forget about TTD and OpenTTD :) 09:39:02 <Terkhen> norbert79: nope, sorry 09:39:05 <Terkhen> just a vague memory 09:39:16 <norbert79> Terkhen: Did you had any entry written there? 09:39:16 <planetmaker> norbert79: you don't need to change any settings... 09:39:21 <Terkhen> no 09:39:24 <planetmaker> it works usually out-of-box 09:39:26 <norbert79> Terkhen: Pity 09:39:32 <Rubidium> creating new servers? Please not ;) 09:39:37 <planetmaker> :-) 09:39:41 <b_jonas> planetmaker: even if the defaults change, that don't give a player like me an easy way to upgrade the changed options to modern 09:39:43 <planetmaker> creating new players? 09:39:47 <Rubidium> people already "complain" that they can't find a populated server 09:39:52 <norbert79> Rubidium: Can't master keep up with the current ones? :)) 09:39:54 <Terkhen> yes, we should focus on creating new players 09:39:57 <planetmaker> b_jonas: it does: delete openttd.cfg 09:39:59 <b_jonas> should I just delete my config file to let openttd restore the new ones? 09:40:16 <b_jonas> and then diff3 my settings like I do with my editor config files :-) 09:40:22 <planetmaker> yeah ;-) 09:40:31 <b_jonas> hmm, I might try that 09:40:39 <Rubidium> norbert79: there are ~220 servers and ~110 clients 09:40:43 <planetmaker> b_jonas: newgrf presets and setting presets as "downloadable items" would make sense 09:40:46 <planetmaker> to some degree 09:40:49 <norbert79> Rubidium: That's a bad ratio... 09:41:05 <planetmaker> newgrf presets need a way to work without the exact newgrf version, though 09:41:09 <Rubidium> norbert79: and rarely *ever* does the ratio get about 1:1 (i.e. more clients than servers) 09:41:10 <Terkhen> setting presets would be nice, yes 09:41:13 <b_jonas> maybe I'm too unixy, but I don't get the point of all these "downloadable items" stuff 09:41:21 <Rubidium> which is why adding more servers is not a good thing to do 09:41:28 <b_jonas> can't you just make those presents just plain files so I can download them with a browser? 09:41:39 <norbert79> Rubidium: Would be worth thinking about how that could happen... 09:41:40 <b_jonas> same way as you can download AIs as files too 09:41:41 <Terkhen> you can download them with a browser too if you want to 09:41:50 <planetmaker> b_jonas: "downloadable item" as in "online content download -> select 'this setting' -> click 'download' -> done" 09:42:00 <peter1138> yeah, hardly any players, considering ottd's supposedly a popular game 09:42:08 <peter1138> i'm guessing it's not 09:42:13 <Terkhen> or "update all my content", or "download all the content I need to run this particular savegame" 09:42:33 <planetmaker> well, settings are never required for a particular savegame ;-) 09:42:35 <b_jonas> Terkhen: hmm, possible 09:42:36 <Terkhen> which, considering the amount of content, are awesome options 09:42:37 <planetmaker> they're included 09:42:44 <Terkhen> oh, I was talking about downloadable content 09:42:49 <norbert79> peter1138: Well, Steve Jobs could make a very small mp3 player sell for the 5 times actually is worth, and it has pretty nice attraction.. :) 09:43:02 <peter1138> so we have to sell ottd? 09:43:04 <Terkhen> IMO OpenTTD is mainly played as single player 09:43:16 <peter1138> how do you know that? 09:43:16 <Rubidium> norbert79: servers are too easy too set up and there aren't enough costs to make running an empty server unfeasible 09:43:26 <norbert79> peter1138: Not really, but making more adverts to that would attract probably more players. Take a look on Angry Birds for example 09:43:41 * peter1138 tries in #minecraft ;p 09:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... any chance that openttd could display the savegame's game version string, even though it's currently viewed in an invalid version? 09:44:16 <Terkhen> is that stored somewhere? 09:44:17 <norbert79> Rubidium: That's not a problem, the problem is the ammount of players... 09:44:20 <b_jonas> planetmaker: settings are never required for a particular savegame? this channel has recently told me that I should disable realistic acceleration to make the horse-drawn carriages from eGRVTS work (otherwise they go with 1 km/h only). 09:44:25 <planetmaker> 116 people playing 09:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: it should be in the game log 09:44:41 <Terkhen> ah, true 09:44:42 <norbert79> Rubidium: But think about it: this only means, that only those players are finding OpenTTD interesting, who spend the time even creating a server 09:44:54 <Rubidium> norbert79: lots of servers are unmanaged, meaning that someone can easily mess up the joy for others 09:45:01 <planetmaker> b_jonas: yes. But the game 'works' without. And the setting "realistic accel for RV yes/no" is stored in the savegame. 09:45:11 <planetmaker> And using a different setting preset won't change your savegame either 09:45:22 <b_jonas> norbert79: what? I find openttd interesting but I've not created a server. 09:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like, if some kind of developer setting is activated, show a button "show gamelog" in the load window 09:45:36 <norbert79> Rubidium: Not really... I think OpenTTD is even better mnanaged than COD2 is. Every addon is available online, no need for spending too much time breaking your head for understanding how it works. 09:45:47 <Rubidium> which is why so many servers are basically not populated *ever*, besides for someone trying and getting pissed off by some annoying other player that loves trashing other people's fun 09:45:52 <norbert79> b_jonas: But the game would need more of such :) 09:45:59 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: sounds useful 09:46:44 <b_jonas> in fact, shouldn't most new players learn in single player first before they join to servers? 09:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: i don't see how that would be a requirement 09:47:16 <planetmaker> hm... popularity contest: display the total playing-hours on a server averaged over a month ;-) 09:47:21 <planetmaker> could be faked then easily 09:47:40 <planetmaker> b_jonas: mostly I didn't 09:47:42 <Terkhen> if the server is taken care off and it has a nice community, new players could learn there too 09:47:56 <b_jonas> norbert79: the problem is, the addons are available from the online window, but they're not easily available in any other way, such as directly from http, especailly if you want source and if you don't ask the irc channel about where everything is hidden. 09:47:57 <planetmaker> after one, two games I started playing online. And nearly only do so 09:48:17 <planetmaker> b_jonas: the readme of them could tell you 09:48:24 <norbert79> Rubidium: I just don't know, maybe this game is just for specific players only, but what is for sure, that Angry Bird (despite it's pretty easy gameplay) got more attraction, than OpenTTD, where OpenTTD is much more... 09:48:31 <Terkhen> planetmaker: you would be surprised by the amount of FPS game servers that list a false max_players - 1 amount of connected players :P 09:48:44 <norbert79> b_jonas: I agree partly, since many release the GRF's in FOrums only 09:48:44 <b_jonas> planetmaker: they should. 09:48:49 <Terkhen> and that's because Angry Birds is more "casual" 09:48:53 <b_jonas> planetmaker: often, even the license conditions aren't included in the binary dist 09:48:57 <b_jonas> which is crazy 09:49:15 <planetmaker> norbert79: which important grfs were released forum-only? 09:49:18 <Terkhen> b_jonas: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/ 09:49:30 <planetmaker> except by a single person? 09:49:33 <Terkhen> every addon is there 09:49:39 <b_jonas> Terkhen: yep, for the GRFs, but why isn't there a clear link from the openttd server and from this topic 09:49:42 <Terkhen> (every addon available through the online content of course) 09:49:46 <b_jonas> Terkhen: and the AIs are in a different place I think 09:49:56 <Terkhen> no, AIs are there too 09:50:12 <Terkhen> and if you want ingame links... you need to come up with a good multiplatform way to open browsers from OpenTTD 09:50:25 <norbert79> planetmaker: Can't come up with an exact example, but take screewnshots, where someone starts a game starting in 1800. It looks awesome, releases the GRF list (a list in HTML format or plain text would be useful), and when I start to do the same, I find, that 75% of the content is only available, and importants were missing 09:50:37 <b_jonas> Terkhen: if you really want them, I'll look at how to do taht 09:50:55 <Terkhen> it's something I would love to have, yes 09:51:08 <b_jonas> wait, I'll write that up 09:51:13 <norbert79> planetmaker: I think restricting releases of GRF's in Bananas only would help a bit... or releases of GRF lists, which can be copy-pasted into openTTD.cfg 09:51:47 <norbert79> planetmaker: So one can just start playing using the same scenario/mood/... 09:51:49 <Terkhen> people can release NewGRF files as they want to... it's not something we can (and IMO should) control 09:51:54 <planetmaker> err? why would that help and how could that be faciliated? 09:51:55 <b_jonas> still, I'd like an easy link to bananas from the openttd homepage, and a link to source and terms of copying in the binary dist of most grfs 09:52:13 <planetmaker> and yes, why should we even attempt to control newgrf development? 09:52:20 <b_jonas> Terkhen: sure 09:52:30 <Terkhen> b_jonas: LordAro was working in a patch for displaying the README files of downloadable content 09:53:03 <Terkhen> hmmm... he hasn't been in this channel for a while 09:53:12 <norbert79> planetmaker: One example: go inside any screenshots page, and you will see often some cool pictures. Now normally noone starts with listing exactly what GRF's one has used. I would be happy having a quote from the openttd.cfg where I cxan see the files he used, or somehow able to click a file, which automatically downloads all necessary GRF files... Or something. 09:53:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: Let me find an example 09:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> people can release NewGRF files as they want to... it's not something we can (and IMO should) control <-- actually we should, just to make MB's worst nightmares come true :p 09:53:45 <Terkhen> norbert79: you can get that list... as long as the png file was saved using the ingame screenshot option and not modified later 09:53:51 <b_jonas> ah yes, the screenshots page is hopelessly obsolate 09:54:17 * Terkhen appoints Eddi|zuHause as the leader of the future OpenTTD Thought Police 09:54:26 <planetmaker> norbert79: osie is your friend, if it's a screenshot made ingame 09:54:49 <norbert79> Terkhen: Ok, I will just show you an example... SOme people use 10-25 GRF's art the same time, and no options are listed either. I would be happy having a .grf_list for example, which would include all GRF's to be used, including options listed too, like an scn file 09:54:53 <planetmaker> http://www.openttd.org/en/download-osie 09:55:01 <Terkhen> norbert79: that's what osie does 09:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> more image viewers should have builtin metadata viewers... 09:55:08 <Terkhen> I'm not sure about the options, though 09:55:15 <Terkhen> maybe we should have an online version of osie 09:55:22 <planetmaker> it's all written in the png header of screenshots 09:55:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: See? I wsn't aware of this, unless I don't mention... See, this is why this game scares people away. Many functions must be hunted for 09:55:42 <planetmaker> I don't see how that scares people 09:55:46 <norbert79> planetmaker: Now you shared this with me, now I know... 09:55:57 <planetmaker> I don't know any other game where a screenshot lists the used add-ons or mods 09:56:07 <Terkhen> well, we have a wiki :) 09:56:15 <planetmaker> nor actually any other game which has such convenient tool as osie 09:56:20 <Rubidium> hmm... the advanced settings having too many settings and too dense on information, and then complaining that the game doesn't provide enough? 09:56:39 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, generic way of a user: user finds game, is happy starts playing. Sees new possibilites starts asking. He checks servers, gets confused by many options. Wants to try new things, he gets let down because noone wants to implement in main, but 'use GRF'.. then comes the GRF hell... 09:57:11 <Terkhen> norbert79: what should we do to fix that? 09:57:27 <norbert79> Terkhen: That needs more thinking, I can't answer this for you in 5 minutes... 09:57:28 <planetmaker> grfs are just downloaded via online content. Easy as pie. Activate those grfs which you like. Easy as pie, too 09:57:28 <Terkhen> and "implement in main" is not an option 09:57:59 <Terkhen> I don't know how to solve it either, besides "fix the wiki" :) 09:58:00 <Rubidium> ah, so OpenTTD should out of the box provide *all* imaginable trains, wagons and features in a single game? 09:58:06 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, did you ever got through all the GRF's? Bananas is very tight on info, downloader is a bit easier, but still gives you not much info... 09:58:12 <norbert79> Rubidium: No 09:58:23 <planetmaker> norbert79: probably I went through all grfs, yes 09:58:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: You did... But generic users won't 09:59:08 <planetmaker> each grf is an add-on written by another user to faciliate a different effect 09:59:13 <Terkhen> they can ask for NewGRF suggestions at the forums, many do that 09:59:16 <planetmaker> how could it in principle be simpliefied? 09:59:23 <Terkhen> or ask here (which is what I did) 09:59:33 <Rubidium> http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html <- go through those ;) 09:59:37 <planetmaker> different people have different tastes of what constitutes a good selection, chocie or everything 09:59:52 <Rubidium> good luck finding a large part of them though 09:59:54 <norbert79> Guys, don't you get it? You always tell why I am wrong, and why something is good as it is, you never rerally consider possibilites, or think through criticism... See, this is also one thing which is something I find problematic. 10:00:25 <Terkhen> what I try to point is: "I don't know how to make it better, do you?" 10:00:38 <Terkhen> because I honestly don't 10:00:45 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why shall one MUST be involved with development if coming up with ideas? 10:00:54 <Terkhen> what ideas? 10:00:59 <norbert79> Any ideas 10:01:09 <norbert79> If someone comes up with something: go and make a NewGRf 10:01:11 <Terkhen> that's what I'm asking for... ideas to solve the issues you mention 10:01:19 <norbert79> if someone would like to add: go and make a GRF 10:01:32 <norbert79> it's always the same 10:01:55 <Terkhen> I'm a bit lost, I think that you changed the conversation topic :) 10:02:10 <Terkhen> anyways, what should be implemented ingame instead of using a NewGRF in your opinion? 10:02:11 <Rubidium> really? If it makes sense to implement it as a GRF then yes, it should be a GRF. Not yet another setting. 10:02:26 <norbert79> See? Again: It is as good as it is... 10:02:29 <norbert79> :) 10:02:44 <Rubidium> huh? Why should we implement German trains? 10:02:55 <Rubidium> why should that become a setting? 10:03:12 <Rubidium> instead of "downloadable content"? 10:03:13 <planetmaker> it's a setting. In the newgrf menu ;-) 10:03:29 <Terkhen> norbert79: sorry, but I need an example 10:03:33 <norbert79> I give up.. The problem is, that you never really try to think through, and you mainly never answeer a question, but ask back.. This is the annoying part. 10:03:38 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, if you wait a bit 10:04:35 <Terkhen> I ask back because telling us random ideas and expect us to develop the idea itself taking into account every problem and then coding it is IMO not fair with our work 10:04:46 <norbert79> You are the developers, not me 10:04:50 <norbert79> why are you suprised? 10:05:05 <norbert79> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=46766&start=20 - Found 10:05:09 <Terkhen> but you know enough about the game to participate in discussions about new options 10:05:37 <norbert79> Terkhen: But generic users don't, and if they even try to get involved, they always end up being forced creating a GRF... 10:05:49 <Terkhen> hmm... that's a screenshot thread, what does it have to do with "whenever I ask something, I get told to do a NewGRF"? 10:05:52 <norbert79> anyway, one problem: check the picture listing all the GRF's 10:05:53 * Terkhen reads 10:05:56 <norbert79> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=122828 10:06:00 <norbert79> to make it easier 10:06:11 <norbert79> now try to get all of these.. I failed 10:06:35 <Terkhen> that means that some NewGRF authors refuse to distribute their NewGRFs via bananas 10:06:50 <Terkhen> or that the user is using unreleased versions of NewGRFs 10:07:01 <Terkhen> what can be we do about that? 10:07:03 <norbert79> See, just one idea: it would be much nicer having an option file exceprt including parameters, so one can just click the list, and this GRF list would be added 10:07:10 <norbert79> if present in Bananas 10:07:11 <Terkhen> that exists 10:07:14 <planetmaker> norbert79: so. Now, how can the _game_ or _we_ help to make it easier to explain where *someone* got *his* newgrfs for *his* game on his *private* computer? 10:07:16 <Terkhen> download the savegame, try to load it 10:07:22 <Terkhen> it will tell you that some files are missing 10:07:35 <Terkhen> and give you the option to check if those files are present in the online content 10:07:39 <norbert79> Terkhen: Oh, right.. Vry attractive method :) 10:07:56 <norbert79> but sure, it's easier that way, but other methods would be more welcome as well 10:07:58 <peter1138> who uses presets? 10:08:06 <Terkhen> which methods? 10:08:08 * planetmaker sometimes does, peter1138 10:08:14 <peter1138> i remember darkvater didn't like the idea o_O 10:08:26 <planetmaker> but I'd like them to allow 'update to newest version' 10:08:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: Like in other games not only Bananas could be used for transferring GRF? :) 10:08:33 <peter1138> planetmaker, yeah, that's my gripe ;) 10:08:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: but through the server as well? 10:08:43 <Terkhen> norbert79: some NewGRF authors oppose to that 10:09:01 <planetmaker> that was not feasible to agree upon 10:09:06 <norbert79> Then they should not enable this for their servers 10:09:11 <Terkhen> how can we know if we are authorised to distribute their NewGRFs that way 10:09:11 <norbert79> so easy 10:09:27 <norbert79> aw, comne on, see? 10:09:35 <planetmaker> no, it's a copyright issue 10:09:40 <Terkhen> yes, it's a copyright issue 10:09:44 <norbert79> It would be just easier making an option: allow transfer of GRF's.. Yes or no 10:09:46 <peter1138> newgrf authors don't tend to host servers 10:09:46 <planetmaker> we must not distribute something we are not allowed to 10:09:56 <Terkhen> if someone says "this NewGRF cannot be distributed unless from my homepage" 10:10:03 <peter1138> other people host servers, and the newgrf authors have no control over that 10:10:04 <Terkhen> we are violating the license 10:10:05 <norbert79> it should be the responsibility of the hoster what he distributes or what he doesn't 10:10:19 <norbert79> And see, I am again let down on a very basic idea 10:10:31 <norbert79> getting it why the game has only limited attraction? 10:10:40 <Terkhen> because we respect copyright? 10:10:45 <planetmaker> yeah, we're a bunch of evils who barely thought about anything related to this game and just rebuff great ideas 10:10:52 <Terkhen> in this case, there is nothing we can do 10:10:57 <Terkhen> the author of the NewGRF decides 10:11:09 <Terkhen> that's why only the original author can upload stuff to bananas 10:11:24 <norbert79> Yeah, makes no sense. If he doesn't want one thing made redistributable, he dowsxn't release it in Banans 10:11:32 <norbert79> but this way noone will play his GRF, right? 10:11:36 <Terkhen> yes 10:11:38 <planetmaker> yes 10:11:43 <norbert79> and if one still has it on a server, one cannot joinm 10:11:48 <Terkhen> we can agree that such behavior makes no sense :) 10:11:51 <norbert79> so only a few elits are able to do so 10:11:53 <planetmaker> norbert79: except those 5 people who post a screenshot 10:12:02 <planetmaker> and then you come and complain that that newgrf is not found 10:12:09 <norbert79> lol.. Makes so much sense. Enable download makes the same 10:12:25 <Terkhen> norbert79: we would only be able to enable download if the authors authorised us to do that 10:12:26 <norbert79> In case for SWAT 4 if one doesn't want distribute maps, it disables the option. Problem solved 10:12:30 <Terkhen> and that's what bananas does 10:12:34 <norbert79> that makes no sense. 10:12:53 <norbert79> I will give up, thgis is leadiong nowehere, you don1t even take the time thinking this through.. 10:12:56 <Terkhen> I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm saying that's how copyright works 10:13:17 <Lachie> are we secretly talking about mb? 10:13:28 <Rubidium> norbert79: having NewGRFs downloaded from the game server makes sense, but it's a gigantic legal/copyright bear trap which we want to avoid 10:13:28 <planetmaker> no? 10:13:34 <Terkhen> why should I think it through if I know for certain that some NewGRF authors would demand that their NewGRFs are not distributed this way and we have no way to know which ones we can distribute and which ones we can't¿ 10:13:36 <Terkhen> ? 10:13:50 <Terkhen> it is not feasible, because of the way copyright and people work 10:14:00 <planetmaker> Terkhen: technically it's not our problem if *some* server distributes newgrfs 10:14:05 <planetmaker> it's the server's responsibility 10:14:07 <Rubidium> norbert79: especially, if we violate copyright of the NewGRFs then we have no way to claim that others breaking OpenTTD's copyright should stop doing so 10:14:12 <norbert79> Rubidium: Ok, very easy example: if one author doesn't want a GRF distributed but it stil got it distributed, why would OpenTTD devs care? It's the responsilbity of the hoster, not the developers... 10:14:30 <planetmaker> still, the online content could only be successful because we imposed this limit at that time 10:14:31 <Terkhen> you are using the master server to access that server 10:14:33 <norbert79> Rubidium: This is just being paranoid, not pre-cautious 10:14:34 <Rubidium> norbert79: remember Napster, the Pirate Bay and such? 10:14:50 <Terkhen> so we are the ones who facilitate distribution of content 10:14:51 <Rubidium> norbert79: they are taken down because they facilitate illegal downloading 10:15:13 <norbert79> Ok, I guess you missed a few years, because PB works well, and these are just not so good examples 10:15:27 <norbert79> it's more a question of who owns the repsonsibiltiy 10:15:34 <Terkhen> PB has been jumping from another country to another, and has been closed momentarily a few times already 10:15:45 * planetmaker goes back to rather *creating* online content 10:15:47 <norbert79> Terkhen: Still up and working, but lets put that aside 10:16:40 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:16:47 <norbert79> One thing is for sure: until you don't enable GRF transfer throiugh servers, the GRF issue will stay, and poeple won't get attracted by it... 10:16:59 <b_jonas> so wait, are there actually people that create GRFs but don't want to distribute it freely? 10:17:08 <planetmaker> norbert79: reality contradicts your statement 10:17:09 <Terkhen> b_jonas: sadly, yes 10:17:09 <norbert79> b_jonas: Yes... Makes sense, huh? 10:17:10 <b_jonas> are they waiting for Chris Sawyer to buy those GRFs for the next game? 10:17:26 <norbert79> planetmaker: 110 players for 220 servers... Are you sure? 10:17:43 <Terkhen> norbert79: the only feasible solution I can think for your problem is a filter in the multiplayer server list... "do not display servers that include NewGRFs from outside online content" 10:17:45 <planetmaker> norbert79: that's independent of newgrfs 10:17:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: You think... 10:18:13 <Rubidium> "Servers registered as on 2011-10-14 10:18:00 UTC. There are 114 clients, 194 IPv4 servers and 30 IPv6 servers. 10:18:15 <norbert79> Terkhen: That could be a solution. Not the best, maybe really something not preferable, but a solution. 10:18:26 <planetmaker> norbert79: no, I know the ratio of servers / players prior to introduction of online content, too 10:18:32 <Rubidium> 114 clients vs 224 servers 10:18:34 <b_jonas> as in, they want to limit their distribution? or they're just lazy to bundle it up in such a way that they're downloadable from online content? 10:18:40 <planetmaker> and the ratio of servers / newgrf-servers 10:19:00 <Lachie> could ofcourse introduce an Action 08 switch to define whether or not it can be transferred in that manner, but that would probably be going a very long way about it. 10:19:10 <Terkhen> the other solution is: "convince EVERY NewGRF author to change their mind and release their NewGRFs on bananas" 10:19:23 <planetmaker> not going to happen :-) 10:19:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: Take UT99 for example.. it has a few hundred servers but tousands online... Why? Because online content is spread through servers too. YOu connect, get what you need, you enjoy it.. Period. and if was something the creator didn't want to spread must blame the one whom he shared it with 10:19:34 <planetmaker> as I'll always have my private built of my newgrfs :-P 10:19:49 <norbert79> planetmaker: It's not UT99-s fault if someone was dumb enough spreading something... 10:19:59 <Terkhen> or "make changes to the NewGRF specs so everyone must agree to some terms such as allowing distribution" which would split the community 10:20:20 <norbert79> Plain option: allow GRF transfer through servers: On/Off... problem solved. 10:20:41 <b_jonas> I don't want to restrict GRF authors to release their GRFs freely, I'd just like to understand the motivation 10:20:43 <norbert79> The same way many mainstream games do as well 10:21:05 <Terkhen> norbert79: we allow distribution of content already... if someone wants to make their server private by including NewGRFs that are not on bananas, it's their loss 10:21:24 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why forcing Bananas? Why not allowing it as an additional option? 10:21:51 <norbert79> and cxopyright will stay still in force 10:21:51 <Terkhen> because some content authors would oppose to that way of distribution 10:21:55 <norbert79> So? 10:22:03 <Terkhen> and their copyright explicitly says so 10:22:03 <norbert79> The turn of GRF distribution through servers 10:22:12 <norbert79> and rest will be still available through Bananas 10:22:16 <norbert79> they 10:22:23 <norbert79> problem solved again 10:22:25 <peter1138> who's "they"? 10:22:30 <Terkhen> how can they turn off GRF distribution? 10:22:39 <norbert79> if they don't want get his stuff distriuted, they shall not send it to anyone as first step 10:22:46 <norbert79> it's like sharing private erotical photos 10:22:53 <norbert79> if you don't want to get them seen 10:22:54 <Rubidium> norbert79: there's a legal issue with that; those "mainstream" games did it from the start, so all content created for it knew of the "requirement" for redistributability. For OpenTTD there has not been such "requirement" and as such we can't (legally) force it on NewGRFs released way before OpenTTD distributing NewGRFs got implemented 10:22:58 <norbert79> Don't share them 10:23:14 <Terkhen> exactly, we would need to assume "all old NewGRFs are not distributable" 10:23:19 <norbert79> 220 vs 110 players... I am just saying... 10:23:22 <Terkhen> which would solve... nothing 10:23:25 <planetmaker> new action14 entry ;-) 10:23:29 <norbert79> lol 10:23:30 <planetmaker> DIST: 1 10:23:36 <norbert79> yeah, could be done 10:23:37 <Terkhen> new NewGRFs are already on bananas usually 10:23:43 <Terkhen> and we can't fix the old ones 10:23:53 <norbert79> planetmaker: But making action14 work you must be able to distribute it through servers :) 10:23:54 <Lachie> planetmaker: what I meant when I was saying an Action08 switch :P 10:24:09 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:24:11 <norbert79> planetmaker: and it still can be hacked ;-)) 10:24:22 <norbert79> Ok, lunch time 10:24:26 <planetmaker> Lachie: action8 can't be changed much. Action14 is better 10:24:29 <Terkhen> enjoy :) 10:24:40 <planetmaker> and targeted for such use 10:24:41 <Lachie> norbert79: if it's "hacked" that's out of the hands of the dev team anyway 10:25:15 <planetmaker> a hacked newgrf fortunately differs from the original one ;-) 10:25:41 <Terkhen> yes :P 10:28:38 <Lachie> I'll admit I've never even heard of Action14 10:28:53 <Terkhen> it's a recent addition 10:28:55 <Lachie> though, the last time I seriously coded was when TTDP was still undisputed champion. 10:28:58 <planetmaker> Lachie: you should read up on it :-) 10:29:08 <planetmaker> Very useful. And should be part of any new release really 10:29:30 <planetmaker> it adds those info which action8 cannot add ;-) 10:29:49 <planetmaker> like version, min_compatible_version, palette,... 10:30:08 <planetmaker> parameter descriptions 10:30:09 <Lachie> so it's like an extension of an Action8? 10:30:19 <Lachie> interesting, will have to look that up pronto 10:30:38 <planetmaker> it's a multi-purpose one actually. But most existing standard extensions target to provide additional info on the newgrf 10:30:44 <Terkhen> yes, parameter descriptions are awesome :) 10:30:58 <Terkhen> I wasn't able to start with NewGRFs until that 10:31:01 <planetmaker> newgrfs w/o action14 parameter descriptions kinda suck ;-) 10:31:40 <b_jonas> I mean, it's not only the terms of copying that are missing from binary grf dists: some of them say "see info about parameters in the README", but that README is not distributed with the binary 10:31:46 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action14 <- Lachie 10:31:50 <Lachie> aggressive marketting there. haha. 10:31:58 <Lachie> planetmaker: already found it. reading up 10:32:03 <planetmaker> b_jonas: the readme is - or can be - distributed 10:32:10 <planetmaker> it's just nicely in the tar you got 10:32:22 <planetmaker> if the readme is NOT provided, then it's the fault of the author 10:32:38 <planetmaker> as s/he go the chance to add it to the thing bananas distributes 10:32:38 <b_jonas> planetmaker: I have checked the tar 10:32:45 <b_jonas> planetmaker: and yes, it is the fault of the author 10:33:09 <planetmaker> hm... colour depth :-) 10:33:44 <Terkhen> b_jonas: regarding our previous discussion, IMO a readme viewer and allowing to click on http links from inside OpenTTD would fix most of it :) 10:33:56 <planetmaker> quite 10:34:05 <planetmaker> the readme viewer would be highly welcome 10:34:08 <Terkhen> displaying parameters already fixed part of the issues 10:34:12 <Terkhen> but not all 10:34:27 <planetmaker> it's 80% of the way. But not 100% ;-) 10:34:38 <planetmaker> but then there are always new destinations to reach 10:35:35 <b_jonas> Terkhen: yep, unless you also want to play ottd without net connectivity 10:35:55 <Lachie> oh derp, we're not even using version 6 anymore. awkward. 10:35:56 <b_jonas> in which case it's better to also distribute the html docs in the tarball too 10:36:18 <Terkhen> hmm... but the readme viewer would do more or less the same thing 10:37:10 <b_jonas> look, like I said, I would not like a readme viewer 10:37:10 <planetmaker> Lachie: version7 certainly is older than 3 years 10:37:18 <b_jonas> I'm a unix guy, I want ONE utility to do everything 10:37:22 <b_jonas> one editor, one html viewer 10:37:27 <b_jonas> and this one can be replaced by the user 10:37:38 <b_jonas> so ottd shouldn't impose a viewer on me 10:37:42 <b_jonas> it should be supplied by me 10:37:43 <planetmaker> hm... don't want unix guys one separate tool for every separate task? 10:37:47 <b_jonas> so opening in a browser is better 10:37:54 <planetmaker> k, mis-understood you, I guess :-) 10:37:54 <b_jonas> planetmaker: no, I want a few tools that do everything 10:38:08 <planetmaker> really? that's not unix-y 10:38:12 <b_jonas> planetmaker: a single editor that I customize and that I use to edit everything, including programs in any language or any configuration 10:38:13 <planetmaker> that's windozy 10:38:27 <Lachie> planetmaker: see what I mean when I said it's been an age since I last took a serious look at this code. 10:38:28 <Terkhen> but the readme viewer wouldn't be an editor... it would be just a wall of text with a scrollbar 10:38:35 <b_jonas> I guess I'm quite unclear here 10:39:11 <planetmaker> b_jonas: unix is like all things like awk, less, vi, patch, ... all separate programmes 10:39:30 <planetmaker> anyway, besides the point here ;-) 10:39:43 <Terkhen> vim? :P 10:39:51 <planetmaker> vim is vi ;-) 10:40:13 <Terkhen> oh, I missed vi in your list... that does way more than a single thing :P 10:42:44 <planetmaker> yes. But I can't live without on *nix ;-) 10:43:02 <planetmaker> nor actually without it on osx ;-) 10:44:22 <Lachie> okay, is it just me or is the overall look of how an Action14 should be set out completely different than other actions. I'm seeing literal strings everywhere 10:45:48 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:47:16 <b_jonas> I find vim as my second choice of editor, for I can use it (even with its default settings) on any system if my first choice isn't yet installed. Vim is available almost everywhere luckily. 10:48:01 <b_jonas> Some parts of vim is a very good idea 10:48:07 <b_jonas> I should steal them to my config 10:48:14 <b_jonas> but some other parts are very distracting 10:49:10 <Terkhen> when I started with linux I found it confusing for me, a novice accustomed to windows, so I used gedit and nano instead 10:49:15 <Yexo> Lachie: it's a bit different, it uses DWORDS as labels. Depending on the value of a dword it can be nicely represented as string 10:50:13 <Yexo> and it was designed to be extensible while maintaining backwards compatibility 10:50:24 <Yexo> ehm, forward compatibility rather 10:53:54 <Lachie> ah. I'm just looking at it like, this is... different 10:54:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23028 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: when using a gender choice list there was still a value popped twice from the newgrf textstack 10:55:43 <b_jonas> Terkhen: that much is true, the basics of emacs are easier to learn for someone accustomed to wordstar-like editors 10:57:24 <peter1138> what? no... vim... all the way 11:09:16 <norbert79> I am lazy, I prefer Gedit, but I too use vim when doing something special 11:09:39 <norbert79> or Notepad++ in Windows 11:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> using DWORDs as labels is common practice. just look at the GRFID 11:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or any RIFF 11:12:20 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 11:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... elegant or hacky? "__repr__ = lambda self: 'Tree(%r, %s)'%(self.value, ', '.join(map(repr, self.children)))" 11:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or one step further: __repr__ = lambda self: '%s(%r, %s)'%(self.__class__.__name__, self.value, ', '.join(map(repr, self.children))) 11:16:55 *** KenjiE201 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 11:16:55 *** KenjiE20 is now known as Guest13524 11:16:55 *** KenjiE201 is now known as KenjiE20 11:19:42 *** Guest13524 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:27 *** theos [~Theos@ool-45726521.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 11:21:00 <Lachie> random, stupid question. How does one count the amount of bytes when there are strings involved? 11:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> nforenum 11:21:57 <planetmaker> as long as it's ascii: count the characters 11:22:07 <norbert79> wc -c if Unix 11:22:11 <planetmaker> but newgrfs are better numbered by nforenum 11:22:19 <Lachie> yeah, just leave it for renum to do 11:27:08 <Lachie> interesting, my Action14 ridiculously broke the GRF. #LearningExperiences 11:27:45 <Yexo> in which way did it brake it? 11:28:11 <Yexo> openttd should ignore an invalid action14 11:28:24 <Lachie> I'm not even sure what it's done. 11:29:03 <Lachie> the first time I tried running ottd it came with an error before the game even loaded. Invalid GRF or something of the sort 11:29:07 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-58-251.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 11:29:16 <Lachie> on subsequent openings of the game it's not even present 11:29:27 <Lachie> (the GRF in the NewGRF Settings dialogue, I mean) 11:29:35 <Yexo> start the game with "-d grf=5" and look at the console output 11:30:14 <appe> evening 11:30:27 <planetmaker> Lachie: but nforenum did not complain about anything? 11:30:46 <planetmaker> hi appe 11:31:57 <Lachie> hmm 11:32:07 <Lachie> doesn't appear to have 11:32:18 <Lachie> nevermind 11:32:19 <appe> what is up 11:32:26 <Lachie> linter failure on sprite 1. 11:32:43 <planetmaker> Lachie: care to just paste your code somewhere? 11:35:50 <Lachie> yeah, I'll just have a quick sniff around first to make sure I'm not embarrassing myself (more than likely) 11:38:11 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:14 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:42:04 <Lachie> eh, at this point I'm willing to brandish my stupidity to all. Give us a sec. 11:47:48 <Lachie> alright, embarrass me, planetmaker: http://openttd.lachlanstevens.net/index.php?title=Paste 11:48:28 <planetmaker> "D" and "8" 11:48:35 <planetmaker> instead of D and 8 11:49:19 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 11:49:32 <Lachie> I'm taking this is something to do with my charset? 11:49:55 <Lachie> or 11:49:57 <Lachie> oh duh 11:49:59 <Lachie> ignore me 11:50:01 <Lachie> I'm an idiot 11:50:03 <planetmaker> no. It's a literal letter. Not a hex :-) 11:50:03 <Lachie> but thank you. 11:50:07 <planetmaker> And you#re not an idiot 11:50:52 <Brianetta> ಠ_ಠ11:51:34 <Lachie> haha 11:51:39 <Lachie> cheers, I'll give it a go now 11:55:36 <Lachie> alright. Loads in OpenTTD now, nforenum is still throwing up a linter failure on that sprite however? 11:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> misses a 00 at the end? 11:57:45 <planetmaker> oh, it does? Hm 11:58:27 <Lachie> does it? looks fine to m? 11:58:31 <Lachie> me* 11:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> one 00 for the action 14, one 00 for the INFO, one 00 for each entry 11:59:26 <Lachie> ah yes. 11:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, "B" entries don't get 00's 12:01:05 <Lachie> ah okay. It's working with them on there anyway. 12:01:34 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:655f:32ae:9a2:1a64] has joined #openttd 12:01:37 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:02:37 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i suggest adding a "Suitable for:" field identifying the intended role of locomotives, a la NARS2 12:02:53 <Yexo> Lachie: it doesn't "work just fine" with those 00s 12:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yes. but i didn't look at newgrf supplied descriptions yet 12:03:23 <Yexo> what happens is that the 00 after the PALS line is read instead of the "B" on the second line for the type of the next one 12:03:39 <Yexo> since "type" is 0, that means the end of the current "C" block 12:03:43 <Elukka> alright 12:03:49 <Elukka> hmm, should i work on sprites or physical models :P 12:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet? <-- magic pink works. now we need to devise some appropriate recolour maps for black/grey/yellow/red/... 12:03:55 <Yexo> since that's the original (first) "C" block in this action, processing is stopped there 12:04:01 <Elukka> cool 12:04:33 <Elukka> i'll go make a magic-pink loaded version of the open wagon then 12:04:58 <Elukka> hm. i think we'll need empty, half load, full load? 12:05:03 <Yexo> why are you using magic pink and not the company colours? 12:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: to avoid colours that might actually be used on the wagon 12:05:34 <Lachie> alright, pulled them out 12:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: recolouring is for cargo (coal, sand, grain, ore, ...) 12:06:39 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: right. If you still want to recolour both magic pink and company colours you'll have to create your own recolour sprites that incorporate both 12:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: do as many loading stages as you like 12:06:52 <Yexo> so num_magic_pink_recolours * num_company_colours sprites 12:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, that will be no problem to autogenerate :) 12:07:17 <Yexo> now for 2cc :p 12:07:20 <Lachie> thank you for the help guys. 12:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: just another nested for loop :) 12:07:38 * Yexo imagines 1500 odd recolour sprites 12:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: GermanRV does that :) 12:08:21 <Yexo> if you go there you'll now find the opengfx source code a nice guide 12:08:26 <Yexo> s/guide/example/ 12:08:35 <Yexo> it's not scripted in there, but that would be easy to do 12:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: for CETS i programmed maybe 500 LOCs, yet it contains 27000 sprites :) 12:15:50 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 12:15:57 <peter1138> but there's a sprite limit of 16384! 12:16:23 <norbert79> hah, cheated then :) 12:17:30 <peter1138> Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation? 12:18:07 <planetmaker> there is? 12:18:37 <planetmaker> peter1138: but... openttd loads that grf just fine (last time I checked) 12:22:02 <peter1138> ... 12:22:09 <peter1138> are you that young? :) 12:22:27 <peter1138> i though everyone knew the sprite limit quote :( 12:22:54 <planetmaker> sorry, I didn't recognize it being a quote ;-) 12:23:27 <Yexo> I did, so it's nothing to do with the time of being here 12:24:34 <Yexo> for the fun of it: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=192464 12:24:41 <Yexo> it's actually _very_ old 12:26:16 <planetmaker> seems so. quite 12:27:36 <norbert79> "Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?" Lol 12:29:41 <peter1138> i like the people replying that there's no sprite limit 12:29:47 <peter1138> when there blatantly was 12:29:58 <norbert79> was or is? 12:30:02 <peter1138> was 12:30:07 <peter1138> there still is 12:30:12 <norbert79> Which is? 12:30:15 <peter1138> but it's rather higher 12:30:19 <norbert79> Just for self-note 12:30:23 <norbert79> how big? 12:30:26 <Yexo> 2**29 or so? 12:30:33 <norbert79> ah, nice 12:30:40 <norbert79> that will be enough for a while :) 12:30:54 <peter1138> no, 2**24 12:30:59 <norbert79> 2^ 24 you mean? 12:31:14 <peter1138> i left a byte for any miscellaneous flags that we might need 12:31:16 <norbert79> 16.777.216 12:31:29 <Yexo> ah, right 12:32:00 <peter1138> i think you'd probably run out memory before getting anywhere near that limit though 12:32:09 <planetmaker> it needs a few newgrfs to actually fill that ;-9 12:32:21 <norbert79> probably, but considering current memory use of current PC's :) 12:32:30 <peter1138> old limit was 2**14, with 2 bits for flags 12:32:44 <norbert79> planetmaker: Noone thought that every day PC's would need several gigabytes of RAM :) 12:32:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, 10-15 years ago 12:33:00 <Yexo> also note that that limit is only for real sprites. You can have as many pseudo sprites in grfs as you want 12:33:08 <norbert79> nice 12:33:30 <peter1138> not in ttdpatch ;) 12:33:32 <Yexo> "real sprites" = graphics and also recolour sprites in this case 12:33:42 <Yexo> ttdpatch doesn't have a 2**24 limit either 12:33:49 <peter1138> nope 12:33:53 <planetmaker> oh, no. recolour sprites count, too? 12:34:03 <planetmaker> @calc factorial(192) 12:34:03 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factorial' is not a defined function. 12:34:05 <peter1138> yes, shocking isn't it 12:34:09 <planetmaker> @calc factor(192) 12:34:09 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factor' is not a defined function. 12:34:14 <peter1138> and! the landscape sprites too! 12:34:20 <planetmaker> @calc !192 12:34:20 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) 12:34:22 <Yexo> @calc 192! 12:34:22 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) 12:34:36 <peter1138> planetmaker, what are you trying to work out there? 12:34:45 <norbert79> @calc 2^24 12:34:45 <DorpsGek> norbert79: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number. 12:34:50 <planetmaker> peter1138: amount of possible recolour sprites which make sense 12:34:54 <norbert79> @calc 2**24 12:34:54 <DorpsGek> norbert79: 16777216 12:34:57 <norbert79> ah 12:35:08 <norbert79> that's why you guys use ** instead of regular ^ 12:35:14 <peter1138> eh, well you can map any of the 256 values to any of the other 256 values 12:35:14 <Yexo> planetmaker: that would be 255!, not 192! 12:35:15 <glx> python syntax 12:35:23 <peter1138> 255 then :p 12:35:26 <Yexo> assuming you never remap color 0 12:35:28 <norbert79> glx: Python changes everything :P :) 12:35:55 <planetmaker> Yexo: I wanted to ignore the pink for now... but 192 or so was the number probably w/o any action colours 12:36:00 <peter1138> ^ doesn't mean power in C either 12:36:03 <glx> norbert79: ^ is xor 12:36:15 <Yexo> but pink is certainly valid, given that eddi is already using it (or will be soon) in cets 12:36:17 <norbert79> peter1138: but in regular calculators :) 12:36:28 <planetmaker> I know 12:36:35 <norbert79> peter1138: and many place elsewhere too 12:36:42 <Yexo> there are 12 pink colors in the dos palette 12:36:42 <glx> we are programmers :) 12:36:43 <planetmaker> I didn't quite understand why pink is used, though. But well :-) 12:37:07 <Yexo> they want to recolour the cargo, but don't want to use colors for the cargo that might be used for the actual wagons 12:37:09 <peter1138> because it's obvious 12:37:18 <Yexo> since that means they'd recolor parts of the wagon too 12:37:23 <norbert79> glx: Google is also using ^ ;-) :D I know... It's just I am used to ^ :) 12:37:34 <Yexo> norbert79: google understands both 12:37:43 <norbert79> Yexo: Let me see... 12:37:51 <norbert79> Yexo: Nice! 12:38:48 <norbert79> Pity Google can't do Algebra :) 12:39:32 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: how do you plan to layer the wagon and cargo sprites to a single sprite? 12:39:38 <planetmaker> wolfram alpha can 12:39:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: I heard about it, never got deep into it 12:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that's for the artists to figure out 12:40:35 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:41:07 <planetmaker> Yexo: I'd assume using a layered graphics file is relatively easy, isn't it? 12:41:28 <Yexo> true 12:41:38 <norbert79> planetmaker: Thanks for the tip, now I know which website to block from my son, so he makes his math on his own :DD 12:41:39 <planetmaker> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x**2+%2B+x+-2+%3D+0 <-- norbert79 12:43:19 <planetmaker> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28d%2Fdx+ln+x+%2B+3%29+%3D+5 12:43:27 <planetmaker> it's easy to use really :-) 12:43:32 <norbert79> oh god, I hope my son never discovers it, unless he is finished with elementary school :) 12:43:39 <norbert79> planetmaker: Exactly, that's the problem :D 12:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically mathematica in your browser 12:45:17 <planetmaker> yup 12:45:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: Does it also details how to solve the equation, or just tells you the result only? 12:46:38 <norbert79> Pressed random, it gave "Japan military strength" 12:46:43 <norbert79> and it solved it :D 12:48:12 <planetmaker> it gives you steps for taking derivative or integrals 12:48:21 <planetmaker> if you want 12:48:37 <norbert79> and it also can create specific things like a barcode... Cool 12:48:39 <planetmaker> with verbose explanation why the step is valid 12:49:01 <planetmaker> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=d%2Fdx+%28x**3+-x+%2B+sin%28x%29%29 <-- i.e. look 12:49:07 <planetmaker> and click "show steps" 12:49:44 <norbert79> planetmaker: This site MUST be banned for my son, otherwise he will never do anything on his own :) 12:50:39 <Yexo> if he only used the site he'll simply fail his exams since he doesn't understand anything of it 12:50:45 <Yexo> I fail to see how banning the site helps 12:51:08 <norbert79> Yexo: Got children? :) 12:51:34 <Yexo> no 12:51:44 <norbert79> You will understand it then :) 12:51:49 <norbert79> when you get one 12:52:00 <norbert79> trust me, some sites shall not be shown.. yet :) 12:52:18 <norbert79> it's like telling the end of a story right at the start :) 12:54:37 <Elukka> http://www.railroad24.de/forum_anhang/14120520070549.jpg 12:54:42 <Elukka> what a weird locomotive... 12:54:56 <norbert79> 1920's looking 12:55:03 <norbert79> looks like a military train 12:55:06 <Elukka> something like that 12:55:07 <Elukka> nah 12:55:09 <norbert79> I mean locomotive 12:55:14 <Elukka> it's not armored, it's streamlined 12:55:19 <norbert79> I see 12:55:23 <norbert79> I thought armour 12:55:45 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/LBE_Doppelstockwagen.jpg 12:55:47 <Elukka> pulled these 12:55:52 <Elukka> which also look way too modern for the 30's 12:56:55 <norbert79> Elukka: My favorite ones: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Gesch%C3%BCtzDora2.JPG :) 12:57:32 <norbert79> and Gustav 12:57:43 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 12:57:43 <Elukka> http://i.imgur.com/Dj3it.jpg 12:57:45 <Elukka> how about this :P 12:57:48 <Elukka> a moon rocket on rails 12:57:58 <norbert79> nice 12:58:01 <norbert79> makes sense 12:58:13 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 12:58:36 <norbert79> But the one train you showed from Wikipedia lookks also nice 12:58:53 <norbert79> Talking about the 30's, Baordwalk Empire Season 2 episode 1 was nice 12:59:19 <Elukka> i don't get how the vehicle transporting the rocket works 12:59:19 <norbert79> but let's focus on these loco-motives :) 12:59:28 <norbert79> Slow 12:59:30 <Elukka> it looks like it moves on two sets of rails 12:59:31 <Elukka> http://www.starbase1.co.uk/n1/images/N-1%20Carrier/slides/n1-on-train.jpg 12:59:43 <Elukka> you can see the locomotives there 12:59:49 <norbert79> Yeah, I do 13:00:00 <norbert79> 1 wouldn't be able transporting it 13:00:13 <norbert79> I guess it's siimilar to when moving a house 13:00:51 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Booster_N1_3.jpg 13:00:54 <Elukka> shame the rocket never worked... 13:01:13 <norbert79> I feel pity for the Soviet Buran 13:01:28 <norbert79> where the Space Shuttle was successful, Buran never flew 13:01:36 <Elukka> i'm more sorry for the energia (buran's carrier rocket) 13:01:37 <norbert79> despite it had some better ideas 13:01:41 <Elukka> shuttles were always a bad idea 13:01:44 <norbert79> you can keep that 13:01:49 <norbert79> I am for the Buran :) 13:01:52 <Elukka> buran was just a better engineered bad idea 13:01:58 <norbert79> I disagree 13:02:00 <Elukka> but still a bad idea 13:02:01 <norbert79> since it flew well 13:02:16 <norbert79> well, Buran or the Shuttle is still better, than rockets 13:02:20 <Elukka> sure, it flew well, but shuttles have serious cost and safety issues 13:02:21 <Elukka> it isn't 13:02:24 <norbert79> it gives you much more possibilties 13:02:30 <Elukka> like what? 13:02:35 <norbert79> Moving things 13:02:38 <norbert79> repair 13:02:50 <norbert79> Without the Shuttle Hubble would be busted fast 13:03:16 <Elukka> because it was specifically built to be maintained by the shuttle 13:03:22 <Elukka> no reason a capsule couldn't do it were it designed so 13:03:42 <norbert79> like having no arms to hold things? :) 13:04:00 <Elukka> it could dock into it were a docking port provided 13:04:04 <norbert79> Ok, the method what 2001 Space Odessay had could be a solution 13:04:10 <norbert79> yeah, right 13:04:22 <norbert79> I liked the Pod idea 13:04:56 <norbert79> And what do you think about the last Enterprise? 13:05:02 <norbert79> Looks promising 13:05:17 <Elukka> the only reason the buran was built was because some soviet higher ups who knew nothing about spacecraft thought the american shuttle could be some kind of nuclear bomber and wanted a vehicle with similar capabilities made 13:05:30 <Elukka> now the rocket engineers knew how ludicrous that was, and likely also knew that a shuttle wasn't such a great idea 13:05:40 <Elukka> so they built the carrier rocket so that it didn't have to fly with buran 13:05:44 <Elukka> it could loft any payload 13:05:49 <norbert79> Elukka: The Buran's plans were started where the cold war was pretty intensse 13:06:07 <Elukka> yes 13:06:24 <norbert79> well, the soviet planes have never been designed for high end, but for reliability, they always solved such issues having much stronger engines 13:06:32 <norbert79> Take a look at Su-27 for example 13:06:43 <Elukka> what's that got to do with anything? 13:06:53 <norbert79> the similar idea was used for the Buran too 13:07:05 <norbert79> it's a bit heavier, who cares, lets put a bigger rocket below it 13:07:22 <Elukka> the buran didn't even carry engines besides small maneuvering thrusters, though 13:07:31 <Elukka> and the carrier rocket used more efficient liquid rockets in comparison to the american one 13:07:45 <norbert79> See? Still better then :D 13:07:56 <norbert79> Anyway, what do you think about recent Enterprise? 13:08:02 <norbert79> Virgin's 13:08:18 <Elukka> well it's not a spacecraft 13:08:21 <Elukka> it's a high altitude airplane 13:08:38 <norbert79> Well, the U-2 was same, yet very close to the top 13:08:46 <Elukka> not anywhere close to orbit 13:08:48 <Belugas> hello 13:08:53 <norbert79> Hi Belugas 13:08:53 <Elukka> either U-2 or anything virgin does 13:09:10 <Elukka> the main problem with reaching orbit isn't altitude, it's comparatively easy to do that 13:09:19 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d82393c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:09:21 <norbert79> Elukka: Sure, but the first Enterprise Shuttle didn't leave to the orbit neither :) 13:09:23 <Elukka> the real challenge is gaining the required 8 km/s velocity 13:09:45 <Belugas> sir norbert79 :) 13:10:01 <norbert79> sir Belugas :) 13:10:08 <Elukka> but the shuttle was always designed to be an orbital vehicle.. 13:10:13 <norbert79> Elukka: I know, but still it would be nice if they still could manage it 13:10:18 <Elukka> yeah but they won't :P 13:10:26 <Elukka> it's not what they're trying to do currently 13:10:41 <norbert79> well, something must replace the shuttles... 13:10:52 <norbert79> rockets are nice, but a 50 years old technology 13:10:57 <norbert79> and very limited use 13:11:00 <Elukka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9 13:11:02 <Elukka> here's the replacement 13:11:19 <Elukka> spaceplanes are not inherently better or more advanced, they just look prettier 13:11:21 <norbert79> back to the roots... 13:11:25 <Elukka> in all our experience so far they're worse 13:12:15 <norbert79> Guess Elite 2 style of spaceflying is still just a dream, and will stay so for the next 50 years then 13:12:25 <Elukka> and if virgin were to try orbital spaceflight, they'd have to design a whole new vehicle from scratch 13:12:31 <Elukka> anything they've done so far is simply not built for it 13:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> which also look way too modern for the 30's <-- streamlining was "in" in the late 30's 13:13:05 <Elukka> yes, norbert, but not because of rockets 13:14:06 <norbert79> Well, if we look at this this way, the US still using the same old thinking, like what they gathered after 1945... It's like getting stuck with the same idea :) 13:14:12 <Elukka> the shuttle was not a revolutionary advancement in spaceflight, it was a sidestep to a nasty, murky bog 13:14:22 <Elukka> in which nasa has been stuck for the past three decades 13:14:22 <norbert79> Falcon 9 is not reusable neither, the space shuttles were at least 13:14:44 <norbert79> not that they would have done that way, but money was only spent for that only 13:14:47 <Elukka> falcon 9 is designed to be fully reusable 13:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the "reusable" parts of a shuttle are like 15-20% 13:15:14 <Elukka> well the shuttle does reuse the orbiter itself and the solid booster casings 13:15:26 <norbert79> Elukka: Well, according to the page you shared it shows totally the opposite 13:15:29 <Elukka> this is where we realize that reusability isn't necessarily cheaper than building new components... 13:15:57 <Elukka> the current version of falcon 9 is not reusable, but the vehicle is designed with reusability in mind and they're working on that 13:16:12 <Terkhen> designed for future features :) 13:16:17 <norbert79> lol 13:16:25 <norbert79> Sounds like Windows Vista :)) 13:16:35 <Elukka> it's also easier to make a two stage rocket reusable than it is to make a spaceplane reusable 13:17:07 <Elukka> because the bulk of the rocket consists of the first stage, and it never reaches orbital speed or altitude 13:17:14 <Elukka> so it experiences much milder reentry heating 13:17:17 <norbert79> I think the focus should be on new engines... Rockets is way more the sidestep for me, than the shuttles... 13:17:40 <norbert79> and yes, reentry is a huge problem 13:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: shuttles did not reach the intended 90 starts per year, so they were a failure 13:18:07 <Elukka> there are basically two kinds of new engines that are possible 13:18:16 <Elukka> airbreathing engines, which are of questionable use... most likely not worth it 13:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (that'd be twice a week) 13:18:20 <Elukka> and nuclear engines which have their own issues 13:18:31 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: 90 was never really possible in my opinion, I don't know how has set that stupid limit 13:19:12 <Elukka> what's wrong with rocket engines, anyhow? 13:19:21 <norbert79> it's way outdated 13:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: well if you want any sensible commercial activity, it must come to such high frequencies eventually 13:19:34 <Terkhen> we should build a space elevator 13:19:49 <Elukka> that's like saying "bullets are outdated" 13:19:54 <Elukka> or wheels 13:19:57 <norbert79> Terkhen: Yeah, have seen those ideas... And against what would you fix that? Against the moon? :)) 13:20:06 <norbert79> Elukka: Apples against grapes :) 13:20:06 <Terkhen> they are, I want my lasers and floating cars 13:20:14 <Elukka> but they're not outdated 13:20:33 <Terkhen> norbert79: a counter weight IIRC 13:20:47 <Elukka> here's spacex's eventual plan for the falcon 9 13:20:47 <Elukka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p176UpWQOs4 13:20:49 <dihedral> can you not use fruit that does not highlight me? 13:20:54 <norbert79> Using rockets for space-exploration mission is just a way saying: sorry, we failed to imporve what we could gather from the Germans in 1945 13:21:11 <Elukka> sorry but that's just wrong 13:21:12 <norbert79> dihedral: Avocado? 13:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: obviously the end of the space elevator needs to be a point in geostationary orbit 13:21:54 <Elukka> rockets work, they are simple, they have the capability of being cheap if enough are being built and launched 13:21:56 <Elukka> what's wrong with them? 13:22:05 <Terkhen> they are not cool anymore 13:22:08 <norbert79> reusability, flexiblity 13:22:16 <Elukka> they can be made reusable 13:22:18 <Terkhen> and they are expensive :P 13:22:38 <Elukka> indeed they are easier to make reusable than a shuttle 13:22:46 <Elukka> not sure what you mean by flexibility 13:23:22 <norbert79> Basically you have no control on the reentry, almost nothing, shuttles could at least fly like airplanes 13:23:25 <norbert79> for example 13:24:15 <Elukka> why's that particularly important? 13:24:27 <Elukka> it's perfectly possible to precision land on a small pad with a capsule 13:24:31 <norbert79> well, it sucks landing in the ocean, if something occurs :) 13:24:57 <Elukka> soyuz has been landing on land for the past four decades 13:24:57 <norbert79> not possible to make corrective maneuvers 13:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much ocean in kasachstan :p 13:25:26 <norbert79> I think I am really familiar with russian space exploration, we had to learn them in elementary school back then :) 13:25:32 <Elukka> and just to illustrate how wasteful the shuttle is... 13:25:41 <Elukka> the shuttle stack could either launch 20 tonnes of payload and a shuttle 13:25:46 <Elukka> or it could just launch 100 tonnes of payload 13:25:50 <Elukka> the former is also more costly 13:25:54 <Elukka> why pick that option? 13:26:16 <norbert79> ok, how much can a rocket launch with crew? :) 13:26:34 <Elukka> depends on how large you want to make the rocket 13:26:40 <Elukka> soyuz launches 3 people, spacex dragon launches 7 13:27:03 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'launches' 13:27:12 <norbert79> see? So it's basically much more expensive, since you have to design the rocket based on the payload, and not the opposite 13:27:17 <Elukka> what? 13:27:32 <__ln__> @seen Celestar 13:27:32 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 39 weeks, 0 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Celestar> hahah 13:27:34 <Elukka> you have to design a spaceplane based on the payloads it will fly just the same 13:27:41 <planetmaker> you can buy it. But you'll not get a 100% promise of delivery ;-) 13:27:51 <norbert79> :) 13:28:06 <norbert79> Like with the ESA 13:28:26 <Elukka> also, a falcon 9 with dragon costs about million to launch 13:28:31 <planetmaker> norbert79: rockets are not designed 'based on payload' in a more detailed level than cars 'designed based on payload' 13:28:31 <Elukka> a space shuttle... perhaps 0 million 13:28:55 <Elukka> amusingly falcon 9 cost less to design from scratch than a shuttle costs to launch once 13:29:14 <norbert79> Elukka: I would also count the design, acceptence costs and administartive costs to that, it will sure end up much more, than 60 :) 13:29:30 <Elukka> you could go ahead and make a contract with them for that price 13:29:37 <Elukka> and it would actually be launched 13:29:38 <Elukka> for that price 13:30:11 <Elukka> they publish prices for customers on their website 13:30:13 <Elukka> http://www.spacex.com/falcon9.php 13:30:20 <Elukka> -59.5 million 13:30:41 <norbert79> Yes, the plain launch cost 13:30:45 <Elukka> of course that includes profits, so the actual costs are less than that 13:30:48 <norbert79> not the other costs included 13:30:55 <planetmaker> which other, norbert79? 13:31:09 <norbert79> if a payload needs the modification of the rocket for example 13:31:11 <Elukka> um, that has all costs and profit for the company included 13:31:27 <Elukka> "Custom fairings are available at incremental cost." 13:31:27 <peter1138> anyone good with mobile phones? 13:31:30 <planetmaker> norbert79: you won't simply get that 13:31:55 <planetmaker> and a custom-car also costs custom amounts of money. 13:31:59 <planetmaker> I see no issue there 13:32:13 <norbert79> you never do with anything normally :P 13:32:14 <planetmaker> as basically all satellites can be launched by off-the-shelf rockets 13:32:16 <Elukka> it's not that a specific payload needs a different rocket 13:32:30 <Elukka> this is basically the same that a car is designed for a max payload of 5 people 13:32:35 <planetmaker> yup 13:32:46 <norbert79> Elukka: One example: goverment sats 13:33:04 <Elukka> what special modification would they require? 13:33:05 <norbert79> that needs additional costs and admin work 13:33:11 <norbert79> No idea, I have never worked for them :) 13:33:19 <norbert79> but considering how such work 13:33:24 <norbert79> I can imagine lots of things 13:33:36 <Elukka> um. they provide launch services and rockets, they don't build the satellites 13:33:38 <Elukka> that's up to the customer 13:33:57 <planetmaker> yeah. They're nothing special. Just another satellite 13:33:57 <norbert79> sure, but that comes with the final expenses 13:34:08 <planetmaker> norbert79: that's not transport costs 13:34:16 * Belugas is good at dialing wth mobile phone, peter1138. as well as listening to music, but that's pretty much it ;) 13:34:33 <planetmaker> hehe @ Belugas and also hello @ Belugas 13:34:37 <Belugas> speaking of music... time to load JudasPriest 13:34:47 <Belugas> hello sir planetmaker :) 13:35:29 <Elukka> i'm still not sure how these mysterious extra costs apply to rockets but not spaceplanes 13:35:33 <planetmaker> norbert79: you can simply face it: but rockets are not build specifically for a payload but the other way around 13:35:38 <Elukka> a spaceplane is simply a rocket with wings, landing gear and other unneeded crap :P 13:36:25 <Elukka> yeah rockets are simply built to loft a certain amount of mass into orbit 13:36:28 <norbert79> planetmaker: With not much of use really 13:36:37 <Elukka> the rocket doesn't care if that mass is a weather satellite, a top secret spy sat, or a bunch of astronauts 13:36:43 <planetmaker> yeah 13:37:05 <planetmaker> norbert79: you've never filled out any spec requirement forms for rocket lifts, did you? 13:37:13 <planetmaker> and spec conformance filesà 13:37:20 <peter1138> hmm 13:37:43 <norbert79> planetmaker: Tell me just one thing rockets can do, for which Space Shuttles were not capable of... 13:37:55 <Elukka> and if your payload masses too much, you buy a bigger rocket 13:37:55 *** Korenn [~kvirc@93-125-161-18.dsl.alice.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:57 <planetmaker> a space shuttle is just a rocket... 13:38:02 *** Korenn [~kvirc@93-125-161-18.dsl.alice.nl] has joined #openttd 13:38:11 <planetmaker> basically the space shuttle was payload for a rocket 13:38:13 <peter1138> bah 13:38:15 <Elukka> yeah 13:38:18 <planetmaker> it only happend to be a quite powerful 3rd stage 13:38:19 <Elukka> that itself carries a smaller payload 13:38:28 <peter1138> xperia mini pro looks quite nice but apparently the battery only lasts a day, if you're lucky 13:38:29 <norbert79> So was the Me-163 too, still was used as a fighter 13:38:47 <planetmaker> norbert79: the space shuttle had about the aerodynamics of a brick! 13:38:48 <Elukka> norbert: tell me one significant thing shuttles can do that rockets can't 13:39:02 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I wish my brick would fly that smooth :) 13:39:18 <norbert79> Elukka: In space maintenance, and repair 13:39:23 <planetmaker> wrong 13:39:34 <Elukka> the russians have been happily assembling space station sections in space without any shuttles 13:39:43 <Elukka> and maintaining that station too 13:39:48 <planetmaker> sojus do that happily longer than the space shuttle exists 13:40:08 <norbert79> Elukka: I wouldn't really compare the ISS with the MIR (RIP) 13:40:30 <Elukka> did you know the core modules of the ISS were launched with russian proton rockets? 13:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: what's the difference between ISS and MIR? 13:41:04 <norbert79> Elukka: Well, if you will come aware of any missions, which would involve in-sapce maintenance of something in space and not on ISS using rockets, tell me 13:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: ISS has been partially assembled and supplied by soyus capsules as well 13:41:18 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:41:52 <Elukka> well it's the progress freighters (which are a variant of soyuz) that supply it and proton rockets that build it 13:42:29 <Pinkbeast> For some reason this is all reminding me of the OTTD+500 nut 13:42:41 <Elukka> norbert: there currently isn't anything in space besides the ISS that needs or is built for maintenance 13:42:50 <Elukka> oh, sorry, there's tiangong now 13:43:55 <planetmaker> hm, is there already hayabusa2? 13:44:21 <Elukka> don't think so 13:44:42 <Elukka> the shuttle is funny in that it's really built upside down 13:44:43 <planetmaker> no 13:44:47 <planetmaker> there is not yet 13:44:58 <Elukka> it carries a massively bloated reusable upper stage that uses up 75% of the vehicle's payload 13:45:11 <Elukka> while normally upper stages are light and cheap 13:45:17 <planetmaker> launch 2014 13:45:20 <Elukka> it'd really make sense to make a reusable first stage than an upper stage 13:45:28 <Pinkbeast> Also it's a bit twisted by the requirements of the Cold War... 13:45:51 <Elukka> heh, yeah 13:46:00 <Elukka> built to do everything, does everything... at a humongous cost 13:46:01 <norbert79> Elukka: Makes sense, but you forget, that all, what must be used in space must stay with on top.. No wonmder on the 75% then 13:46:23 <Elukka> what's used in space is generally called 'the payload' 13:46:39 <planetmaker> ^ 13:50:16 <norbert79> Yet this fact still doesn't make rockets more advanced for me... 13:51:24 <norbert79> If you want to do more, you will need something like the Saturn 5 :) 13:54:58 <Elukka> something of its size, yes 13:55:29 <Elukka> it'd be convenient though not absolutely necessary for space station building, lunar and mars missions, stuff like that 13:55:44 <planetmaker> you need an elevator ;-) 13:55:48 <norbert79> lol 13:55:59 <Elukka> i'm not that convinced elevators are a plausible near term solution 13:56:01 <planetmaker> it's less 'lol' than one might think 13:56:16 <planetmaker> but not near-term indeed 13:56:24 <Elukka> there's also non obvious issues when one falls down to earth 13:56:27 <planetmaker> it misses about a factor of 10 in tensile strength 13:56:34 <norbert79> Elukka: Just wanted to mention 13:56:43 <Elukka> it'll break down in the atmosphere... and now you have potentially very harmful carbon nanotube dust in everyone's lungs 13:56:48 <norbert79> Elukka: I wouldn't be happy having one huge piece of metal in my room 13:57:00 <norbert79> Elukka: that too 13:57:42 <planetmaker> you didn't read the novel 'foundations of paradise'? 13:57:45 <Terkhen> only 10? I thought it was at least 100 or 1000 :) 13:58:22 <Elukka> i think some reasonable study ended with the conclusion that space elevators used on the scale of the space launch market today would end up with similar costs as rockets currently 13:58:27 <Elukka> in terms of $/kg to orbit 13:58:31 <planetmaker> iirc you can currently get near the factor of 10 13:58:44 <peter1138> let's remove 32bpp support 13:58:55 <peter1138> nobody uses it, it's just cruft that bloats ottd 13:58:55 <Pinkbeast> If you're lucky it'll break down in the atmosphere, if not it wraps itself around the Equator like a very strongly worded note from the Grim Reaper "to whom it may concern" 13:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> are there actual studies on what forces are put onto a space elevator located on the equator? 13:59:34 <Elukka> it's not really a concern that it'd wrap around the earth and physically break things 13:59:38 <Elukka> it'd break up into a fine dust on reentry 13:59:47 <Terkhen> peter1138: maybe that's what is needed to get a reaction from the people that use it :P 13:59:48 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Depends (obviously) on what it is made of. 14:00:04 <Elukka> well carbon nanotubes would do that, and they're pretty much the strongest theoretical substance and the only one that would work 14:00:24 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> Yes, that's a simple sum if you know the strength/mass ratio and desired safety margin 14:00:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: sure, those exist 14:00:52 <peter1138> Terkhen, shh ;) 14:01:03 <Terkhen> :D 14:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: i don't think "simple sum" quite cuts it 14:01:07 <peter1138> although those osx users... 14:01:21 <planetmaker> :-D 14:01:25 <Terkhen> yeah, it worked back then, let's do the same for 32bpp 14:02:03 <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator <-- even on the wiki, Eddi|zuHause ;-) 14:02:53 <Terkhen> I read about space elevators first on an ancient physics book 14:03:11 <Terkhen> it even says "printed in the soviet union, 197?" or something like that 14:03:25 <Pinkbeast> I was reading some early Charles Sheffield SF about them which is very odd these days because he has to start each book by expositing what one is. 14:07:44 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:10:43 <Korenn> hm. I've got egrvts 1.4 on trunk, but I have no road vehicles available... 14:10:52 <Pinkbeast> What year is it? 14:12:08 <Korenn> 1900 14:12:43 <Korenn> I guess it might be clashing with another grf. I'll try turning some off 14:13:11 <Terkhen> let's make a space elevator NewGRF 14:13:24 <Korenn> hm 14:13:27 <Korenn> even on its own 14:13:35 * Terkhen tests 14:14:11 <Korenn> oh, hang on 14:14:18 <Korenn> it may be an ancient version, by accident 14:14:24 * Korenn redownloads 14:15:52 <Korenn> it was grvts instead of eGRVTS 14:17:41 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has left #openttd [Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 14:19:01 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-58-251.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:02 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:22 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-58-251.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 14:19:24 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:21:25 <Korenn> bah, now it's av8 that's refusing to work 14:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what i imagine to be a big problem, besides holding the structure in place, is the power generated by lowering the cabin, which would normally be the reentry heat. 14:22:54 <planetmaker> Korenn: the author thinks that you need to set a parameter when you use the default 'enable multiple engine sets' 14:23:10 <Elukka> it need not have much reentry heating 14:23:14 <Elukka> wait yes it will 14:23:38 <Elukka> it does go down slow, but it still has huge lateral velocity.. 14:24:12 <Elukka> i wager it's manageable, just takes more mass 14:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: normally the lateral velocity increases on descent, but the cable will prevent that, issuing large lateral force on the cable 14:24:40 <Korenn> planetmaker: ah, so it's my stupidity. that figures! :) 14:25:01 <Elukka> the galileo probe survived a 250 g deceleration on jupiter reentry, intact 14:25:04 <planetmaker> not yours. IMHO requiring that parameter is stupid. 14:25:07 <Korenn> hmmmm no 14:25:12 <Korenn> still no planes 14:25:12 <planetmaker> it should work with and without that adv. setting 14:25:20 <planetmaker> in 1900? 14:25:24 <Korenn> yeah 14:25:27 <Elukka> i think space elevators are probably more useful on planets/moons smaller than earth 14:25:35 <planetmaker> I doubt there are any by that time, Korenn ;-) 14:25:46 <Korenn> bah 14:25:48 <Korenn> humbug :P 14:25:57 * Korenn sets time to 1915 14:26:00 <Korenn> and planes. 14:26:02 <Korenn> :P 14:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 1900-ish could be some early zeppelins 14:27:03 <Korenn> no, first one is 1911, apparently 14:27:32 <Elukka> i wish we'd still build zeppelins in real life 14:27:38 <Elukka> not sure of practical use, but dammit they're cool 14:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they tried that 14:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> google for cargo lifter 14:29:31 <Korenn> people still do 14:29:40 <Korenn> yeah 14:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but that kinda monstrously failed :p 14:29:48 <Korenn> and promotional blimps, ofcourse 14:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> blimps are no zeppelins 14:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> blimps are zeppelin-shaped balloons 14:33:18 <Elukka> yeah i mean good old fashioned huge explodey zeppelins 14:33:21 <Elukka> without the explosions 14:34:03 <Korenn> problem is that with helium the lift is just too low 14:34:24 <Korenn> needs hydrogen to get the proper lift to carry stuff. 14:34:29 <Terkhen> use them in an atmosphere without oxygen 14:35:16 <Elukka> they would work marvelously on venus :P 14:35:27 <Elukka> my guess is hydrogen could be manageable today 14:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> in sulphuric acid atmosphere? :p 14:36:05 <Elukka> it's mostly just co2 14:36:09 <Terkhen> the upper capes of the atmosphere don't have sulphuric acid IIRC 14:36:20 <Elukka> even just normal air is a potent lifting gas there 14:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: earth's atmosphere is mostly just N2... 14:36:58 <Elukka> well wiki says venus' is 96.5% co2 and 3.5% nitrogen 14:37:10 <Elukka> with other trace gases, of course 14:37:39 <Elukka> venus has a layer with a nice temperature and a nice atmospheric pressure 14:37:41 <Elukka> and air is a lifting gas 14:37:45 <Elukka> are you thinking what i'm thinking? 14:37:52 <Elukka> (i am thinking cloud city) 14:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how are we going to get the flamingos green'? 14:38:36 <Terkhen> I read about cloud cities in venus in a futuristic RPG setting already :P 14:39:01 <Elukka> i think it's geoffrey landis who came up with the idea 14:39:04 <Elukka> or at least refined it 14:39:12 <Prof_Frink> Cloudbase! 14:39:41 <Elukka> also, while the gas giants are wholly inconvenient places to live on (in?) 14:39:50 <Elukka> i discovered that parts of saturn are surprisingly non-terrible 14:40:26 <Elukka> if you go down a few hundred kilometers you'll get 20 c temperatures, a... well, not a nice atmospheric pressure, but less than what submarines have to endure 14:40:30 <Elukka> and the gravity is very near 1 g 14:40:37 <APTX> during some weekend trip? 14:41:02 <Elukka> basically 14:41:16 <Elukka> it's not at all an useful place, unless you're mining helium-3 14:42:41 <Korenn> Elukka: you mean Lando? :P 14:43:57 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 14:44:12 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/Aerostats.png 14:44:21 <Elukka> i drew that once, based on some NASA design for he-3 harvesters 15:03:00 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:05:51 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 15:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: gravity is fairly irrelevant if you're not on a solid surface 15:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're in an orbit, you are weightless, no matter what gravity 15:08:16 <planetmaker> mind the gravity gradient 15:09:13 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-58-251.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:50 <Korenn> Eddi|zuHause: wut? by that logic, you'd stay in the air if you jump 15:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Korenn: what makes you think jumping up makes you enter an orbit? 15:10:44 <Korenn> Oh, orbit. But he wasn't talking about orbits 15:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well... i don't know any sensible way to float in a He-3 atmosphere, so the only other option would be aerodynamics, which i have trouble imagining 15:23:40 <Elukka> there are asteroids where you could reach orbit by jumping :P 15:24:09 <Elukka> it's still much easier to build a space elevator for a smaller body 15:24:14 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: depends on the density of the He-3, though I'd imagine a vacuum would do the trick ;) 15:24:15 <Elukka> less gravity, shorter, much less tensile strength required 15:24:32 <Elukka> oh we weren't talking about space elevators anymore 15:24:42 <Elukka> or were we? 15:25:48 <Elukka> in a gas giant's atmosphere gravity is very relevant cause you're not on orbit 15:26:52 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:38:28 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-188-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:41:17 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> might it be possible to teach towns to build houses adjacent to bridge heads, like they would on normal roads? 16:07:39 <Terkhen> maybe 16:08:03 <Terkhen> IIRC they check for MP_ROAD 16:13:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.180.73] has joined #openttd 16:14:22 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: don't towns typically build bridges over water, so the square adjacent to bridge head is usually a coast square? 16:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: towns build houses on coast squares 16:15:38 *** sebdg [~Sebastien@host-212-68-195-246.brutele.be] has joined #openttd 16:15:48 <b_jonas> hmm, that's true 16:16:28 <b_jonas> could I abuse that? towns seem so permissive about removing houses (as opposed to about building stations) that it could be cheaper to destroy such a house than to destroy a coast square 16:16:51 <b_jonas> ah no 16:17:00 <b_jonas> apparently it's not _clearing_ a coast square that's expensive 16:17:04 <b_jonas> but building the terrace 16:17:24 <b_jonas> and I don't think I can reuse the terrace a town has built 16:19:39 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:20:07 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 16:20:30 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host86-190-25-151.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 16:25:45 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 16:33:56 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 16:37:27 <Terkhen> b_jonas: now towns also build bridges over rivers/canals 16:38:49 <b_jonas> Terkhen: I see 16:39:11 <b_jonas> but they don't build bridges over, say, diagonal railway tracks, right? 16:39:15 <b_jonas> that's my responsibility 16:40:49 <planetmaker> I guess they don't. Indeed 16:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but even next to manual bridges, they should build houses 16:42:09 <b_jonas> yep 16:42:14 <b_jonas> I guess 16:44:08 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23029 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp): -Fix: [NewGRF] support for cases in strings was broken 16:59:27 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-054-253.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:00:43 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-038-189.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:07:20 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:15:01 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 17:22:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.237.235.128] has joined #openttd 17:23:31 <Wolf01> hello 17:25:19 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 17:29:48 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:29:51 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:33:38 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:22 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 18:01:23 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "if (DistanceFromEdge(tile) == 0) return false;" <-- wouldn't it be easier to check for MP_VOID? 18:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (or am i reading this check wrong?) 18:07:37 <planetmaker> void tiles are not on all borders 18:07:46 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:10:07 <SmatZ> at least with "build at map edges" patch disabled 18:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but on those other borders there are water tiles 18:10:31 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: there can be buoy or oil rig tiles as well 18:10:38 <SmatZ> (if that matters in that case) 18:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> this is town growth code, and i assume it will bail out way before that 18:15:38 <Alberth> you can have land at the borders too 18:15:40 <andythenorth> hola 18:15:47 <Alberth> hi andy 18:15:57 * andythenorth has had less ttd time recently 18:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, that has certainly never been possible 18:17:40 <Alberth> sure? you can generate a map without water, and void tiles are not at all borders (as pm already said) 18:17:54 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/645/ <-- I seem to miss something... as I regardless of height and snowline get the last version (i.e. the non-snowy version) 18:18:19 <Rubidium> Alberth: either there is MP_VOID or there is MP_WATER at x = 0 or y = 0 18:18:36 <Rubidium> at the southern edge it is always MP_VOID 18:18:51 <Rubidium> (where I said MP_WATER I might mean "watery tile") 18:19:40 <Alberth> ah, I understand now 18:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: when land map edges are allowed, there is an additional row of void tiles 18:20:18 <Alberth> that will need to be the case, otherwise the statement by rb fails :) 18:21:02 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcfcc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:21:42 <Alberth> although I have so far failed to understand why this difficult construct, just void tiles around all edges surely would be easier 18:22:00 <Alberth> evenink frosch 18:22:06 <Rubidium> Alberth: hysterical raisins 18:22:52 <Alberth> as in, the original game did do it this way? wow 18:22:56 <Rubidium> yep 18:23:07 <Rubidium> it had water at the edges, which is always at level 0 18:23:21 <Rubidium> and the void at the bottom is so the water tiles can determine their slope easily 18:23:22 <SmatZ> it just wrapped around from 0 to 255, where it found MP_VOID :) 18:23:56 <andythenorth> yay 18:23:58 <Alberth> and void tiles prevented ships getting routed from one edge to the opposite one :) 18:23:59 <andythenorth> more FIRS translations 18:24:01 <frosch123> though i wonder whether it also wrapped around from 0 to 65535 to find void 18:24:07 <frosch123> evening everyone :) 18:24:09 <Rubidium> as it needs the tile at +(0,1) +(1,0) and +(1,1) to determine the slope 18:24:12 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-56.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:24:15 <SmatZ> hello frosch123 :) 18:27:38 <Terkhen> hi frosch123 18:27:44 <planetmaker> hi frosch123 18:29:51 * andythenorth ponderises 18:32:00 <andythenorth> time for more boats? 18:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 19th century sailboats! 18:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't get the town growth code... 18:39:12 <Terkhen> it is a huge mess IIRC :P 18:40:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:41:16 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@host86-190-25-151.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 18:46:15 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.54] has joined #openttd 18:47:03 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:48:01 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host86-190-25-151.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:48:19 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie 18:51:53 * Rubidium pokes dihedral with FS#4796, FS#4803 and FS#4804. I hope it doesn't hurt too much ;) 18:54:19 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:14 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 19:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how annoying would it be to have DorpsGek react on every "FS#xyz" with the appropriate link? 19:01:16 <frosch123> @fs 4796 19:01:16 <DorpsGek> frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4796 19:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yeah, that kinda defeats the point :p 19:02:07 <frosch123> @fs 4796 dihedral 19:02:07 <DorpsGek> frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4796 dihedral 19:02:16 <planetmaker> :-) 19:02:21 <frosch123> hmm, it appends it at the end :o 19:02:30 <frosch123> @fs dihedral 4796 19:02:30 <DorpsGek> frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/dihedral 4796 19:02:32 <planetmaker> the pointy stick gets sharper, eh? :-) 19:02:38 <planetmaker> loool :-) 19:02:39 <frosch123> oh, so simple 19:03:03 <frosch123> it just puts the http stuff to the front :p 19:03:16 <frosch123> i hoped it would do something smart :p 19:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for input validation :p 19:06:12 <DorpsGek> @fs 4796 19:06:30 <frosch123> hmm, he does not talking with himself :p 19:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> scripts like that usually don't work on outgoing text 19:07:16 <frosch123> also might be bad when using the command to talk :p 19:11:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:12:26 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@host86-190-25-151.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 19:14:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AB4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:02 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host86-190-25-151.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:19:11 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie 19:19:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:23:17 * andythenorth is watching British train videos 19:23:25 <andythenorth> british trains are so crappy 19:23:35 <andythenorth> except IC125 19:25:07 <supermop_> 125s are amazing pieces of product design 19:25:48 <supermop_> also partial to 158s but I know I won't find too many confederates there 19:26:42 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 19:28:17 <andythenorth> supermop_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Grange 19:29:00 <supermop_> yeah pentagram is sweet 19:30:48 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 19:37:45 *** sebdg [~Sebastien@host-212-68-195-246.brutele.be] has left #openttd [] 19:37:46 <supermop_> platner was also part of that i think 19:38:04 <supermop_> good 20th C british design 19:43:27 * andythenorth needs to nom nom something 19:45:05 <supermop_> cornish yarg 19:45:35 <supermop_> english cheese is the best cheese, and yarg is the best english cheese 19:45:59 <andythenorth> hmm 19:48:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 19:59:56 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-56.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:03:02 *** Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-5d8232e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:09:10 <supermop_> i wonder why more prolific industrial designers have not taken up train design 20:09:31 <supermop_> i would like to see a naoto fukusawa shinkansen 20:09:58 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d82393c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:11:49 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:11:54 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:14:41 <Lachie> supermop_: being good at one doesn't necessarily mean being good at another, really. Both can be damned hard if you're only used to the other 20:16:46 <supermop_> true 20:19:30 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:19:37 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 20:20:05 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host86-190-25-151.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:30:57 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 20:43:10 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 20:43:13 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:47:17 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:03:15 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-74.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:06:13 <Terkhen> good night 21:07:54 <andythenorth> bye Terkhen 21:08:04 <andythenorth> hmm 21:08:08 <andythenorth> sometimes it's quiet 21:08:14 <andythenorth> sometimes that means stuff is being worked on 21:09:10 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 21:13:04 <V453000> sometimes it means it is friday pub night :P 21:17:41 <andythenorth> hmm 21:17:58 <andythenorth> the design of small sea-going coasters didn't change much since the 1900s 21:18:01 <andythenorth> less to draw for me :P 21:20:44 <V453000> what is a sea-going coaster? 21:20:49 <V453000> I guess some ship, but .. :) 21:21:38 <andythenorth> it's a small ship that goes to sea...near the coast :) 21:21:50 <andythenorth> might be an oxymoron :) 21:21:58 <V453000> :) 21:23:46 <planetmaker> good night 21:23:49 * andythenorth is plotting to fix the 'FISH has all ships same since 1870' 21:23:51 <andythenorth> :) 21:23:53 <andythenorth> good night planetmaker 21:26:02 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:28:56 <V453000> gn 21:30:16 <Wolf01> 'night 21:30:19 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.237.235.128] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:30:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:41:12 *** Biolunar__ [~mahdi@blfd-5d8205ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 21:43:08 *** Biolunar__ [~mahdi@blfd-5d8205ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 21:44:19 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 21:46:01 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-151-17.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 21:46:07 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 21:48:28 *** Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-5d8232e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:52:32 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:57 *** uktab [~uktab@host86-160-128-188.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:02:11 <uktab> Hello 22:03:59 <frosch123> hello saturday 22:04:15 <uktab> Can anybody help me find a 'missing' graphics set please. I downloaded openttd and copied files to the data folder (I have Linux mint) but when I type openttd it says 'Failed to find a graphics set' :( 22:04:31 <frosch123> install opengfx 22:04:42 <frosch123> it might be in your package manager 22:05:10 <frosch123> what files did you copy to which data folder? 22:05:12 <uktab> Ah ha - I dl'd all the 'open' packages but mite have forgot to install them... duh! 22:06:09 <uktab> I got Opengfx-0.3.7 and openmsx-0.3.1-source then opensfx-0.2.3-source 22:06:28 <uktab> All that's inside are grf fis etc. 22:06:29 <uktab> files 22:06:44 <frosch123> do you want to build from source? 22:06:52 <uktab> Is that better? 22:07:00 <frosch123> no :) 22:07:04 <uktab> Lol 22:07:09 <frosch123> but you said you downloaded the source 22:07:21 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:43 <uktab> The files I was told to download had the words 'source' in them ? 22:09:10 <frosch123> anyway, you need some ogfx*.grf and openttd.obg 22:09:19 <frosch123> put them in ~/.openttd/data 22:09:48 <frosch123> s/openttd.obg/sopengfx.obg/ 22:10:24 <uktab> There were .grf files in the opengfx folder which I copied to that data folder 22:11:10 <frosch123> next put the .cat and .obs of opensfx also in that folder 22:11:22 <frosch123> then start openttd --help and expect it to list the base sets 22:12:39 <uktab> Ok - In the data folder are lots of ogfx*.grf files but in the original folder I got themfrom there is no *.cat file 22:13:00 <frosch123> .cat is opensfx, not gfx 22:13:29 <uktab> I copied everything from all 3 folders to the data folder, but no cat file 22:13:36 <frosch123> opensfx.cat and opensfx.obs 22:13:50 <frosch123> well, you said above that you downloaded the source of opensfx 22:13:54 <frosch123> download the real thing 22:14:13 <frosch123> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opensfx/releases/0.2.3/ <- the zip from there 22:14:23 <uktab> Thanks - didn't realise there were more than 1 version. Only started using linux yesterday. 22:15:05 <Yexo> frosch123: perhaps better link? http://www.openttd.org/en/download-opensfx 22:15:17 <Yexo> ultimately it's the same file though 22:15:53 <frosch123> yeah, i never remember what is hosted where :) 22:16:07 <frosch123> after all you only need to install it manually once 22:16:23 <frosch123> updates are easier :) 22:16:28 <Yexo> openttd has mirrors of all basesets 22:16:38 <Yexo> and different stuff too like http://www.openttd.org/en/download-grfcodec 22:16:49 <uktab> Thanx for being patient. I used to use DOS so Linux looks familiar, except the commands are new to me 22:17:40 <uktab> I got the zip thanx. Shall I extract it straight to the data folder? 22:18:20 <Yexo> it's easiest to ignore it completely, just make sure you have opengfx 22:18:30 <Yexo> than you should be able to start the game and download the other ones in there 22:18:51 <Yexo> if you want to install it manually: opensfx goes in the data folder, openmsx in the gm/ folder 22:19:13 <frosch123> you need to install opensfx manually 22:19:21 <frosch123> msx can be downloaded ingame 22:19:31 <frosch123> or do we bundle nosounds? 22:19:32 <Yexo> isn't nosound bundled with openttd? 22:19:41 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:44 <frosch123> not that i am aware of :s 22:19:48 <uktab> It says I don't have permission to extract archives in the folder :( 22:20:10 <Yexo> which folder are you trying to extract it in? 22:20:17 <uktab> gm 22:20:19 <Yexo> no_sound.obs in the the repo 22:20:31 <Yexo> gm is for openmsx, but where is that? 22:20:41 <Yexo> should be ~/.openttd/gm/ 22:20:52 <uktab> sorry - wrong folder! 22:21:04 <frosch123> allright, if nosound.obs is bundled... uktab: you should be able to start ottd now 22:21:21 <frosch123> if opengfx is installed you can get the rest easier in game 22:22:31 <uktab> You said to download opensfx? I need to download opengfx now? 22:23:47 <frosch123> when you copied those grf and the obg you installed opengfx 22:24:00 <frosch123> you can get opensfx and openmsx also ingame 22:24:09 <frosch123> try "openttd" now :) 22:24:16 <uktab> Ok thanx. Will try. 22:24:52 <uktab> failed to find a graphics set. See section 4.1 of readme.txt 22:25:15 <uktab> will re-download opngfx from bundles site 22:25:44 <frosch123> what version of openttd did you download btw? 22:25:53 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:25:53 <uktab> I'll check 22:26:28 <uktab> 1.1.3-inux-ubuntu-natty-i386.deb 22:26:39 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AB4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:26:41 <uktab> closest to Mint I could finf 22:26:42 <uktab> find 22:26:59 <frosch123> ok, well, then it should work... 22:27:16 <uktab> I'll get the opengfx now 22:27:41 <frosch123> does "openttd --help" mention any trace of opengfx? 22:27:48 <uktab> Wish linux had drag n drop ;) 22:27:55 <uktab> I'll check 22:28:10 <Yexo> http://binaries.openttd.org/extra/opengfx/0.3.7/opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip <- get this zip, extra in ~/.openttd/data/ and you're good to go 22:28:22 <uktab> thnx Yexo! 22:29:30 <uktab> @froschl32 : no mention at all. It says 5 missing graphics sets 22:32:27 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie 22:32:35 <uktab> @Yexo - that's the zip I already dl'd. This time I extract to which folder? Data? 22:32:52 <Yexo> ~/.openttd/data/ 22:33:00 <uktab> K - will do now 22:33:18 <Yexo> ~ is short for your home directory, note the dot in ".openttd" 22:34:55 <uktab> When I click 'extract' and navigate to 'games' - You don't have the right permissions..." 22:35:03 <uktab> (data folder) 22:35:25 <Yexo> who said you had to navigate to "games"? 22:36:08 <Yexo> you navigate to your home folder (which is ~), than into ".openttd" (with the dot, you might ahve to turn on "view hidden files"), than into "data" 22:36:14 <uktab> \share\games\openttd\data 22:36:18 <Yexo> create those if they don't exist yet 22:36:39 <Yexo> that is a global directory, you need root privileges to write there 22:36:56 <uktab> I'll go back to the ~ 22:37:46 <uktab> I clicked the 'home' icon in the Extract manager 22:37:56 <uktab> There's no .openttd 22:38:00 <uktab> soIcreate one? 22:38:03 <Yexo> yes 22:38:08 <uktab> k thanks 22:38:46 <uktab> The folder could not b created 22:38:52 <uktab> Permissin denied 22:39:07 <uktab> I need to sudo right? 22:39:12 <Yexo> you shouldn't have to 22:39:20 <Yexo> can you open a console window? 22:39:28 <uktab> a terminal? 22:39:30 <Yexo> yes 22:39:34 <uktab> ok 22:39:48 <Yexo> first "cd ~"<enter> 22:40:03 <uktab> done 22:40:08 <Yexo> than "pwd"<enter>, what is the output? 22:40:38 <Yexo> it should be "/home/<your_user_name>" 22:41:06 <uktab> Yes 22:41:16 <Yexo> ok, type "mkdir .openttd"<enter> 22:41:39 <uktab> file exists 22:41:41 <uktab> ...? 22:41:42 <uktab> lol 22:42:25 <frosch123> did you extract the grf to a file named ".openttd" instead of a directory? 22:42:33 <Yexo> wait, when you clicked on "home" in extract manager, where did you end up? 22:42:44 <Yexo> in "/" or in "/home/username" ? 22:43:06 <uktab> The icons at the top were 'home' and in that it said 'nina' 22:43:24 <uktab> (next to that) 22:44:34 <uktab> from left to right - 'type a file name', 'file system', 'home','nina' 22:45:23 <Yexo> can you navigate to "/home/username/.openttd" ? 22:45:52 <uktab> That folder doesn't show up in the list 22:46:03 <frosch123> that might be hidden, try "cd .openttd" in the console 22:46:12 <uktab> k 22:46:33 <uktab> yep - console lets me in 22:46:48 <uktab> ~/.openttd $ 22:46:49 <frosch123> and then "cd data"? 22:47:02 <uktab> no such file ordirectory 22:47:08 <Yexo> so "mkdir data" first 22:47:10 <uktab> k 22:47:24 <uktab> yep - im there 22:47:27 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 22:47:44 <Yexo> where is opengfx zip file? 22:47:59 <uktab> in 'Downloads' 22:48:04 <Yexo> ok 22:48:26 <Yexo> so now do "mv ~/Downloads/opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip ." 22:48:40 <uktab> from inside 'data' folder 22:48:51 <Yexo> yes 22:48:52 <uktab> k 22:49:15 <Yexo> after that "unzip opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip" 22:49:22 <Yexo> after that "openttd" 22:51:16 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [] 22:51:51 <uktab> Opengfx zip isn't there. It's in the temp folder now? 22:52:05 <uktab> haven't moved it yet 22:52:18 <uktab> tmp 22:52:19 <Yexo> just put every command exactly as I wrote it in the terminal 22:53:12 <uktab> I did but I thought it was in Downloads - that's where I tell Firefox to download to, but it wasn't there, it was in 'tmp'so console coudn't find it 22:53:42 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:53:52 <Yexo> than download it again and make sure it's in Downloads now 22:54:12 <Yexo> did you by chance select "open" instead of "save" in firefox? 22:54:27 <uktab> Yes... 22:54:29 <uktab> ! 22:54:36 <uktab> I'll re-download 22:54:56 <Yexo> firefox will only put it in Downlaods/ if you chose "save" 22:55:16 <uktab> Should have realised from my windows days! 22:55:17 <Yexo> the safer option is to save a file first, than open it from the downloads folder. That way you know exactly where it is 22:56:33 <uktab> missing file operand - let me scroll back up and see if I missed something 22:57:00 <Yexo> final dot in the mv command 22:57:10 <uktab> Ah - see it - sorry 22:57:22 <uktab> Done 22:57:32 <uktab> THought ot was a typo 22:57:34 <uktab> it 22:57:56 <Yexo> it's "mv <file_to_move> <target_directory>" 22:58:03 <Yexo> a single dot means "current directory" 22:58:26 <uktab> Got it! Thanx. Now I extract? 22:58:37 <Yexo> yes, that's what the unzip command is for 22:58:44 <Yexo> "unzip <filename>" 22:58:58 <uktab> Forgot to scroll... had a long day! ;) 22:59:49 <uktab> k - gonna try openttd ... 22:59:56 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-188-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 23:00:07 <uktab> Whoo! I see graphics! 23:00:14 <frosch123> great :) 23:00:23 <Yexo> congratz :) 23:00:43 <frosch123> now select "check online content" 23:00:49 <uktab> Thanx froschl32 and yexo :) 23:00:55 <frosch123> and get "opensfx", "openmsx" and "admiralai" 23:01:02 <uktab> and anyone else who helped. 23:01:04 <Yexo> have fun playing :) 23:01:04 <frosch123> ignore the rest for now 23:01:06 <uktab> k - will do 23:01:09 <Yexo> and good night to everyone 23:01:22 <frosch123> too much fancy stuff is too confusing in the beginning :) 23:01:58 <uktab> I don't like making Microsft rich but it would be nice to have drag and drop in linux...! 23:02:04 <uktab> Somuch easier! 23:02:16 <frosch123> actually there is drag&drop :) 23:02:19 <uktab> ? 23:02:31 <frosch123> no idea what you are using when you do not have it 23:02:37 <uktab> terminal \ console 23:02:39 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-151-17.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:42 <uktab> mv 23:02:45 <uktab> etc. 23:03:08 <frosch123> well, the console is an advancted tool which does not require drag&drop 23:03:37 <frosch123> we only told you to use it, because it is easier to tell you what to type, than where to click 23:03:49 <uktab> Ah - ok 23:04:51 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:05:33 <uktab> I just want my sister to be able to play on that linux computer. Her laptop broke and she couldn't afford a Windows machine so I toldher to get a LInux one. 23:06:01 <uktab> I'm trying to get it working before I give it back to her! 23:06:20 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:08:47 <uktab> Is there a speed control for the game? 23:09:19 <frosch123> there is fast forward and pause 23:09:35 <frosch123> and the change date cheat 23:10:24 <uktab> ok - Sorry - I've never played this b4 but I heard it was good. I remember simcity and theme hospital had speed controls 23:10:53 <uktab> seems as if the days are going up every second! 23:11:38 <frosch123> night 23:11:44 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcfcc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:48 *** uktab2 [~uktab2@host86-160-128-188.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 23:14:58 *** uktab2 [~uktab2@host86-160-128-188.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 23:16:09 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 23:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> a day is roughly 2.22 seconds 23:25:58 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:44:12 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-038-189.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:49:15 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224508]] 23:49:25 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-82-191.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 23:54:37 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-74.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:55:07 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]