Log for #openttd on 30th October 2011:
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14:00:59  *** SpBot [] has joined #openttd
14:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think THIS_LENGTH_ADJUST_1 and THIS_LENGTH_ADJUST_2 have something to do with this
14:03:53  <andythenorth> I'll look into it
14:04:13  <andythenorth> ah
14:04:22  <andythenorth> I think they're used by locomotives only at the moment
14:04:28  <andythenorth> wagons have a hard coded set of adjusts
14:04:30  <andythenorth> which is fine
14:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think i can rework the concept to adjust length of locomotive
14:05:00  <Eddi|zuHause> hang on a second
14:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: new layout at
14:10:25  <andythenorth> so all 1/8 or 5/8 now?
14:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:10:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and the locomotive uses LENGTH_ADJUST_1 and 2
14:11:54  <andythenorth> ok thanks
14:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i think LENGTH_ADJUST_1 = 06 and LENGTH_ADJUST_2 = 05
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14:15:19  <nidhoegger> hi
14:15:48  <nidhoegger> im trying to build the dedicated server on a ubuntu server. but it keeps saying i got no lib lzma...ive installed according to the webpage liblzma-dev. error is still present
14:16:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you need lzma2 (sometimes called xz)
14:16:34  <nidhoegger> installed...
14:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> lzma and lzma2 are different things
14:17:18  <nidhoegger> ive installed liblzma2 and liblzma-dev
14:17:29  <nidhoegger> according to the wiki only liblzma-dev is neccessary
14:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> liblzma2-dev
14:17:59  <nidhoegger> there is no such package
14:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> then it's xz-dev
14:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> or libxz-dev
14:18:14  <Alberth> => /usr/lib64/   <-- is what my openttd binary says
14:18:35  <nidhoegger> and libxz also doesnt exist
14:18:42  <Alberth> rpm -qf /usr/lib64/   <-- results in xz-libs-5.0.3-1.fc15.x86_64
14:18:51  <Alberth> but that's fedora, and not debian
14:19:03  <Eddi|zuHause> on suse it's called xz-devel
14:20:37  <nidhoegger> why does the dedicated server require a graphics set?
14:21:02  <Alberth> because it contains a lot more than pretty pictures
14:21:17  <Alberth> ie all meta data about vehicles etc etc
14:21:46  <nidhoegger> kay
14:22:00  * Alberth ponders whether we have a wiki about these topics
14:23:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that all appears to work :D
14:23:38  <andythenorth> I know have to draw pictures
14:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: eery, right? :)
14:24:02  <andythenorth> currently the trams are the earlier models, painted pink, with push-me-pull-you (one at each end)
14:24:16  <andythenorth> not pretty
14:24:43  <andythenorth> "ottd is dying"
14:24:48  <andythenorth> "HEQS is not" :D
14:24:52  <MNIM>
14:24:55  <MNIM> hmmmmh
14:24:59  <MNIM> inventive hack
14:25:45  <MNIM> could speed up water aircraft development considerably
14:27:04  <Alberth> water aircraft does not sound very useful to me
14:27:29  <Alberth> ie what are you going to do with it? fish?
14:28:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: deliver supplies to remote camps
14:28:37  <andythenorth> Alberth: what water-feature recently got added to trunk...? :)
14:29:38  <Alberth>  /me is tycoon, /me does not care about remote camps :p
14:30:45  <Alberth> a smaller (muddy) airport on the other hand at land would be more useful in such cases
14:31:29  <MNIM> andythenorth: isn't actually water feature, is clean GRF
14:32:03  <andythenorth> MNIM: I was thinking about float planes landing on rivers
14:32:18  <MNIM> delete water tiles, place newobject water tiles around intended airport to prevent flooding, place airport
14:32:22  <nidhoegger> can i somehow manually join an IP address?
14:32:39  <MNIM> oh, that
14:32:43  <b_jonas> MNIM: wouldn't canal tiles work for that?
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14:33:22  <MNIM> they would, but that would create an ugly border mismatch unless you expand the sprites to cover neighboring land
14:33:44  <MNIM> which might or might not present clipping issues too.
14:34:00  <Alberth> nidhoegger: just type the ip instead of the hostname afaik
14:34:09  <b_jonas> border mismatch? don't the canals look just like sea?
14:34:16  <nidhoegger> thanks
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14:34:31  <b_jonas> hmm, maybe at the airport
14:34:37  <b_jonas> there would be canal shores
14:35:05  <nidhoegger> working, thank you :D
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14:38:34  <nidhoegger> is there a script or a option that keeps only 10 autosaves and removes the oldest ones?
14:38:45  <nidhoegger> i dont want my server hdd to fill up with autosaves
14:38:53  <Yexo> there is a config setting for that
14:39:03  <nidhoegger> where?
14:39:13  <Yexo> set keep_all_autosave to false
14:39:17  <Rubidium> by default it keeps 16
14:39:24  <Yexo> and they should be named "autosave0.sav", "autosave1.sav" etc.
14:39:24  <nidhoegger> thanks!
14:40:06  <Yexo> max_num_autosaves holds the number it keeps
14:40:18  <nidhoegger> got it
14:40:26  <nidhoegger> but it somehow ignores my max client setting...
14:40:35  <nidhoegger> serverlist tells me server is 2 player only
14:40:56  <Yexo> it's max_clients in [network]
14:41:05  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:41:22  <nidhoegger> yes, i can set whatever i want, as soon as i run openttd -D it resets it to two
14:41:27  <Yexo> the deafult is 25
14:41:42  <Yexo> are you sure it's not twice in your config file or somethign like that?
14:41:58  <nidhoegger> yes
14:42:01  <nidhoegger> grepped it
14:42:02  <nidhoegger> max_clients = 2
14:42:03  <Alberth> you stop OpenTTD before modifying the config file?
14:42:08  <glx> there's also max_players IIRC
14:42:10  <nidhoegger> of course
14:42:30  <Yexo> there is no max_players anymore
14:42:39  <Yexo> max_companies, max_clients and max_spectators
14:43:05  <glx> ha right
14:43:23  <nidhoegger> good, i think he got it now
14:43:41  <nidhoegger> if the server crashes, is there a way to reload the latest backup?
14:43:52  <glx> -g
14:43:57  <nidhoegger> thanks!
14:44:06  <Yexo> doesn't -g create a random game?
14:44:19  <nidhoegger> no, looked it up
14:44:23  <glx> well -g /path/to/savegame
14:44:24  <nidhoegger> -g [savegame]       = Start new/save game immediately
14:44:33  <frosch123> -G is random game :)
14:44:40  <Yexo> but for that you need to know what the savegam ename is
14:44:46  <Yexo> and you don't know that if the server crashed
14:48:40  <nidhoegger> i set the autosaves max to in the worst case the last 4 years will be lost only
14:51:15  <Yexo> you can load a savegame via rcon, so if you give your friends the rcon password they can just try all 4 until they have the last version
14:54:17  <nidhoegger> can i chat ingame?
14:55:45  <Alberth>
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14:59:23  <nidhoegger> thanks...enter is the only key i didnt try
14:59:34  <nidhoegger> btw, if developers are here: MANY THANKS FOR THIS AWESOME GAME!
14:59:52  <Yexo> you've been talking to them ;)
14:59:53  <Yexo> thanks :)
15:01:45  <nidhoegger> :D cool
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15:14:10  <nidhoegger> cant i rename town in server game?
15:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is disabled
15:14:40  <nidhoegger> thanks
15:16:38  <Yexo> only the server can rename towns. with a dedicated server there is no way to do it
15:22:45  <nidhoegger> also not via rcon?
15:23:05  <brundlefly> what do i hg clone from to get a server which speaks the 1.1.3 protocol?
15:23:06  <brundlefly> i did '', and 1.1.3 clients make protocol errors
15:24:31  <Yexo> nidhoegger: I don't think there is a console command to rename towns
15:24:51  <Yexo> brundlefly: you'd need exactly version 1.1.3, I don't think that's in hg at all
15:25:09  <Yexo> though you could try to get the correct version (not tip from that repo, but something earlier) and force the revision to 1.1.3
15:25:19  <Yexo> checking out the 1.1.3 tag from svn would be easier
15:25:29  <brundlefly> i don't know how to svn
15:25:36  <Alberth> or download the source code of 1.1.3
15:25:55  <blotek_> is there any website with sourcemods for openttd ?
15:26:05  <Yexo> blotek_:
15:26:08  <blotek_> ty ;)
15:26:27  <andythenorth> hmm
15:26:36  <andythenorth> only lead vehicle shows visual effect for RVs
15:26:38  <brundlefly> i'm trying to preserve the history, but i'm using the tarball right now
15:27:42  <Alberth> how would the history of 1.1.3 be useful?  you better develop in trunk
15:28:14  <Alberth> since any change in 1.1.3 makes it non-1.1.3 and thus not useful for anybody
15:28:53  <brundlefly> i'm not going to distribute me changes anyway
15:29:23  <brundlefly> and i can't develop from the trunk without losing the ability to talk to 1.1.3 clients
15:29:48  <Yexo> if you want to communicate to 1.1.3 clients you have very limited possibilities anyway
15:30:12  <TrueBrain> the 1.1 HG already has the backports for a potential next release btw ;)
15:30:31  <brundlefly> well i don't know what those limited possibilities are
15:30:35  <TrueBrain> update to rev 'b81203d3886e' to get 1.1.3
15:30:53  <brundlefly> okay, thanks
15:30:57  <Yexo> why are you so set on not distributing your changes, and what exactly do you want to change?
15:31:03  <TrueBrain> "hg log" shows you the ogs
15:33:13  <brundlefly> i doubt anyone would want the changes. all i'm going to be doing is playing around with admin console things
15:33:38  <Yexo> that should be safe
15:33:49  <Yexo> anyway, if those changes are useful for you, wouldn't they also be useful for other people?
15:34:10  <brundlefly> if others want them, all they have to do is ask
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15:37:00  <Alberth> which is a bit hard if you don't tell about them
15:37:09  <brundlefly> you know now
15:37:14  <brundlefly> and they'll be on bitbucket soon
15:37:27  <brundlefly> i'm just playing around. no big deal
15:37:33  <Alberth> I am not 'they' :)
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15:54:47  <brundlefly> b81203d3886e still won't talk to 1.1.3 clients
15:54:47  <brundlefly> so i'll use the tarball i guess
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15:58:51  <TrueBrain> subversion is always best to do for stable clients
15:58:54  <TrueBrain> (or tarballs)
15:58:59  <TrueBrain> mercurial clients need ... love
15:59:08  <TrueBrain> (they do not have a 'tag' clone)
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16:03:50  <brundlefly> why is it that the protocol is so volatile?
16:05:03  <Yexo> the protocol is not, but every client has the complete gamestate
16:05:13  <Yexo> the server only sends commands to the client, not changes to the state
16:05:27  <Yexo> that means that when the main gameloop is changed the compatibility breaks
16:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: the protocol relies on the fact that all connected clients calculate everything game relevant in the exact same way
16:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you'd need to transfer several MB per second
16:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> which means nobody could play multiplayer that isn't on a 100Mbit line
16:06:52  <TrueBrain> and stable clients are forked seperately. So if you want to join stable servers, you need the source from a validated stable :P
16:06:56  <brundlefly> is that the same way quake does it?
16:07:09  <Eddi|zuHause> no, quake does something entirely different
16:07:12  <Yexo> quake is no way comparable
16:07:30  <brundlefly> so why does ottd use more bandwidth than quake?
16:07:43  <TrueBrain> lol
16:07:55  <TrueBrain> what a question :)
16:08:08  <TrueBrain> why is OpenTTD executable smaller than the Quake executable? :)
16:08:24  <nidhoegger> is there a way to open a chat window so i can see past messages?
16:08:31  <Yexo> did you measure how much bandwidth openttd uses?
16:08:52  <Yexo> nidhoegger: you can see them in the console (press the key left to 1 on your keyboard), otherwise no
16:09:11  <nidhoegger> thanks
16:09:13  <brundlefly> s//so why would ottd use more bandwidth than quake if it did things the quake way?/
16:09:36  <Alberth> we have a LOT of gamestate
16:10:08  <Yexo> the gamestate in quake is basically: position, direction, health, some ammo for every player
16:10:20  <Yexo> that's not a lot
16:10:40  <Yexo> the gamestate in openttd is easily several mb for normal maps
16:10:46  <brundlefly> oh, okay
16:11:02  <Yexo> the map alone is 2.4 mb for a 512*512 map
16:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you don't have any vehicles or stations yet
16:11:48  <Yexo> if you want to sent that every game tick (when it changes) you need 70megabyte / second
16:12:01  <Yexo> add in vehicles and stations and even a gigabit connection is not fast enough
16:12:16  <brundlefly> why would you need to send the entire map each frame? why wouldn't a diff do?
16:12:39  <Alberth> you forgot about the industries & houses :)
16:12:43  <Yexo> a diff could do, but that means keeping the old map so you could actually diff
16:13:06  <brundlefly> well doesn't the client keep the map?
16:13:11  <Yexo> a diff not only needs to send the changed bytes but also some metadata
16:13:16  <Yexo> brundlefly: yes, it does
16:13:27  <Yexo> that's why we currently don't send changes to the map but only the commands
16:13:28  <Alberth> brundlefly: useful for sending a dif from the server :p
16:13:31  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: you need two maps to make a diff
16:13:58  <brundlefly> oh right, lol
16:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: and the diff may get larger than the actual map
16:14:22  <brundlefly> but why not a diff queue?
16:14:53  <brundlefly> and send a "keyframe" when a client falls behind and the queue becomes to big?
16:15:22  <Yexo> a keyframe means an actual savegame, which can be several mb big
16:15:46  <brundlefly> well that gets sent when a client connects, right?
16:15:47  <Yexo> which for a lot of players still means multiple seconds downloading, so either pausing the game for multiple seconds or being behind for a few second again
16:16:02  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: yes, and connecting takes several seconds
16:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: so unless you want the keyframe to be sent only once per minute...
16:17:01  <brundlefly> like i said, only when a client falls out of sync
16:17:02  <Alberth> and do one frame / minute :)
16:17:19  <Yexo> brundlefly: you mean as in "too slow" or "desync error"?
16:17:28  <brundlefly> so how does the ottd way prevent a client falling out of sync and needing a "keyframe"?
16:17:35  <Alberth> brundlefly: yeah, but once he is, he will not get up-to-date
16:17:48  <Alberth> since downloading takes too much time
16:17:52  <Yexo> brundlefly: by executing the same commands on both the server and all clients
16:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: "needing a keyframe" is done by kicking out the player, and he has to rejoin
16:18:25  <brundlefly> then it sounds like we're using different terms for the same thing then
16:19:03  <Yexo> hence my question: what exactly do you mean by "getting out of sync"?
16:19:53  <brundlefly> i mean getting so far behind the server than the server decides to stop maintain the old diffs for that client
16:20:41  <Yexo> that means the server would have to keep diffs, which it currently doesn't do
16:20:51  <Yexo> the reason for that being too much bandwith
16:21:32  <nidhoegger> where does the dedicated server store the autosaves? its not in .openttd
16:21:47  <nidhoegger> wait, it is
16:21:49  <nidhoegger> my error
16:21:49  <Yexo> .openttd/save/autosave
16:21:52  <nidhoegger> thanks!
16:21:56  <brundlefly> i'm not seeing how the server maintaining a diff queue in memory would take up bandwidth
16:22:46  <Yexo> the problem is not maintaining the diff queue, the problem is sending that diff queue to every client
16:23:29  <brundlefly> i wouldn't send the entire queue each frame, just the most recent diff each frame
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16:23:43  <brundlefly> as a video codec would do
16:23:45  <Yexo> but every diff can easily be 1 megabyte
16:23:52  <Yexo> and there are 30 frames each second
16:23:54  <Yexo> you do the math :)
16:24:15  <brundlefly> how could a diff be 1M but a command can't be?
16:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: take for example tree growth
16:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: it touches a large part of the map each tick, not confined to any given region
16:24:39  <Yexo> brundlefly: because there are a lot of things done automatically that don't need commands
16:24:47  <Yexo> like vehicles moving, tree growth, animation etc.
16:24:54  <brundlefly> oh, i see
16:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> every 2.5 seconds, tree growth may have changed all tiles on the map
16:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so at least every 2.5 seconds you cause as much as one full savegame of diff-queues
16:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (actually i lied, it's more like 8 seconds)
16:28:27  <Yexo> animated houses / industries can change there animated state every tick
16:28:38  <Yexo> or maybe every 4th tick for houses
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16:45:32  <TrueBrain> brundlefly: btw, your initial assumption that OepnTTD uses more bandwidth than Quake is wrong :p
16:45:59  <TrueBrain> Quake is between 5 KB/s and 15 KB/s, depending on a few factors
16:46:03  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is around 1.5 KB/s
16:46:06  <brundlefly> i phrased my initial question wrong
16:46:15  <brundlefly> see the sed command below
16:46:27  <TrueBrain> your sed was cloned from nothing, so it made even less sense :D
16:46:46  <brundlefly> your sed-fu is weak
16:46:55  <TrueBrain> I am a sane person, yeah ;) :P
16:47:02  <TrueBrain> hihi :D
16:47:35  <TrueBrain> anyway, your question is similar to the question we used to get a lot: why doesn't OpenTTD uses UDP for its gamestate! :P
16:47:39  <TrueBrain> I always loved that question :)
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16:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> a"<TrueBrain> I am a sane person" <-- hahaha :p
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16:47:59  <brundlefly> i understand why you wouldn't want to deal with udp
16:48:19  <TrueBrain> has nothing to do with wanting; Quake is from nature a completely different game than OpenTTD :)
16:48:24  <TrueBrain> the information is very different
16:48:36  <TrueBrain> if in Quake a few packets of the position of a player are not received, nobody cares
16:49:00  <TrueBrain> I always wonder why people compare OpenTTD in network with FPS
16:49:12  <brundlefly> i mean wanting to re-implement tcp atop udp
16:49:19  <TrueBrain> TCP on UDP  == TCP :)
16:49:25  <TrueBrain> such a huge overhead for nothing :P
16:49:31  <TrueBrain> (many have tried, many more have failed :))
16:49:41  <brundlefly> probably becuause quake is the only game protocol i'm passably familiar with
16:49:48  <TrueBrain> and many people are
16:49:55  <TrueBrain> which surprises me tbh :)
16:50:04  <brundlefly> i can build a 1.1.3 speaking server from the tarball
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16:50:17  <TrueBrain> btw:
16:50:24  <TrueBrain> explains a lot why and how things are done in OpenTTD
16:50:37  <brundlefly> but when i add an .hg dir, make does some shenanigans so that it can't speak 1.1.3 anymore
16:50:41  <brundlefly> how do it fix that?
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16:51:05  <TrueBrain> if you have the 1.1.3 source tarball, you should be having a .. what is the file called ...
16:51:07  <TrueBrain> .ottdrev?
16:51:24  <brundlefly> it looks the same before and after
16:51:26  <Yexo> I think it'll keep working if you just do hg init, but just test to make sure
16:51:31  <TrueBrain> ah , lol, hg takes precendence :D
16:51:48  <TrueBrain> checks first svn, then git, then hg, then .ottdrev :D
16:51:54  <michi_cc> brundlefly: By using a subversion or git checkout as the config script will also try to get the hg from your new repo.
16:51:57  <Yexo> I'd say that's the sane order
16:51:59  <brundlefly> src/rev.cpp also looks the same before and after
16:52:07  <TrueBrain> Yexo: it is; just unexpected :D
16:52:54  <TrueBrain> brundlefly: but that brings us to the main question again: why do you want to do that? It only makes sense if you want to modify 1.1.3, which you shouldn't be doing :D
16:53:15  <brundlefly> so i can play with the admin interface
16:53:25  <TrueBrain> why can't you otherwise?
16:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> mÀh... no matter how flexible your track geometry is wrt offered switch types, you immediatly find a situation where it's not enough
16:53:34  <TrueBrain> if with the admin interface you mean the admin port, it just works?
16:53:42  <brundlefly> i want my changes to run on my server
16:53:55  <TrueBrain> ah; officially OpenTTD doesn't support those actions :)
16:54:19  <TrueBrain> you most likely will claim they cause no potential problem, but we might receive bug reports that a client crashes  or something (should never happen, but okay :P)
16:54:56  <TrueBrain> sadly, in Open Source, we are rather limited in avoiding such problems, so a ./configure --help should help you enough
16:55:14  <TrueBrain> just use with EXTREME care
16:55:39  <brundlefly> i did ./configure --revision=1.1.3 but it still wouldn't talk 1.1.3
16:55:55  <brundlefly> i probably should have said that
16:56:03  <TrueBrain> it does help :P
16:56:19  <TrueBrain> and to my knowledge, that works
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17:28:11  <blotek> YACD working ?
17:28:27  <blotek> i got errors while trying to apply patch ...
17:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> then you didn't get the right revision for the patch
17:36:10  <Alberth> using tortoiseSVN?
17:36:40  <Alberth> (or some other patch utility that does not understand git patches)
17:37:45  <blotek> standard bash patch command
17:38:31  <Alberth> bash has no 'patch', but close enough :)
17:38:40  <blotek> u know what i mean ;p
17:38:47  <Alberth> then your revision is most likely wrong
17:39:17  <blotek> i mean
17:39:45  <blotek> can i apply it to actual version (1.1.3) or only testing releases?
17:39:50  <Alberth> by the looks of the file name yacd_v2_3_r22532.patch you need r22532
17:40:32  <Alberth> not a release (perhaps a nightly, not sure), just  a random trunk version probably
17:41:36  <Alberth> blotek: patching releases is very non-useful, as there is nothing useful you can do with it afterwards
17:42:15  <Alberth> and all things you CAN do with it can be done with a trunk version too
17:42:23  <Yexo> blotek: if you patch 1.1.3 it's not 1.1.3 anymore. All clients would also need the patched version, so you might as well distribute a patched trunk
17:43:09  <Alberth> which is much easier in keeping up-to-date for merging
17:45:18  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23066 /trunk/src/lang/ (turkish.txt unfinished/tamil.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:18  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: tamil - 23 changes by aswn
17:45:18  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: turkish - 13 changes by niw3
17:45:19  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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18:39:22  <b_jonas> wow, UKRS gives me such a large choice of cars carrying goods already
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18:41:04  <b_jonas> fast and slow ones
18:41:18  <b_jonas> but how can I tell which cars have continuous brake?
18:42:16  <Alberth> doesn't the documentation of the set tell you that?
18:43:34  <b_jonas> do you mean like this:
18:44:13  <b_jonas> no, even that doesn't tell clearly
18:44:25  <b_jonas> it would be best if the in-game interface told me
18:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's possible to give an explanation text in the buy menu, it's the newgrfs job to actually do that
18:46:11  <b_jonas> yes
18:46:16  <b_jonas> some newgrf does do that
18:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> well. then talk to the author of the newgrf
18:48:35  <Yexo> b_jonas: there is no concept in openttd of "continuous brake" for cars
18:48:46  <b_jonas> Yexo: does it depend only on the engine?\
18:48:51  <Yexo> if UKRS offers that, it's something custom done by that newgrf
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18:49:12  <Elu> my guess is that cars with it don't require the train to have a brake van
18:49:15  <Yexo> <b_jonas> it would be best if the in-game interface told me <- I was explaining why that is not possible to do for openttd, although the newgrf can supply some extra text there
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18:49:24  <b_jonas> oh, right
18:49:50  <b_jonas> but istr the japanese trains newgrf does exactly that: adds extra text about continuous brake
18:51:06  <Elukka> yeah, newgrfs can do that
18:51:17  <Elukka> it's obviously up to the creator of the newgrf to do that though
18:53:42  <b_jonas> I think for this line I'll buy a train with a fast and expensive engine and one with a slow but cheap engine and see which one works better
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18:56:45  <b_jonas> or maybe not
18:57:44  <b_jonas> I'll do that experiment with the bulk cargos instead
19:00:22  <b_jonas> ah, look
19:00:48  <b_jonas> so UKRS implements this feature that when a train is not running it has a lowered running cost?
19:00:52  <b_jonas> wow
19:06:39  <Elukka> NARS and 2cc do too
19:06:43  <Elukka> it's a pretty nice feature
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19:32:04  <MNIM> you can have a lot of 'exhibits' with that feature :D
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19:34:43  <b_jonas> for exhibits you explicitly stop the train which stops the maintenance cost even with no newgrf
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19:46:17  <MNIM> oh, I thought that wasn't standard
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19:56:11  <b_jonas> ah, and apparently UKRS allows me to run short trains without a brake van, but longer trains using the same engine and cars require a brake van.
19:56:29  <b_jonas> just to further complicate the rules
20:02:05  <andythenorth> :)
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20:02:29  <andythenorth> adding a single vehicle to HEQS takes a whole day
20:02:30  <andythenorth> :o
20:02:51  <MNIM> only a day?
20:06:04  <Yexo> b_jonas: no image trying to code an AI. You at least can read the provided readme.txt or the website
20:06:09  <Yexo> *now
20:06:36  <b_jonas> Yexo: yeah
20:06:55  <b_jonas> maybe rules for brake vans and tenders should be supported by the core
20:07:07  <b_jonas> even if not used in the default grf set
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20:24:05  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23067 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#4812]: updating the group statistics got more strict checks, so there was some trouble moving a vehicles and groups from one company to another
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20:29:33  <andythenorth> `hmm
20:29:44  <z-MaTRiX> hey
20:30:14  <andythenorth> I can't get my tram to show correct capacity in vehicle menu
20:30:34  <andythenorth> consist is: engine + 15 wagons with same ID
20:30:45  <andythenorth> wagons have 15t capacity by default
20:31:01  <andythenorth> last vehicle in consist gets 7t capacity using cb36
20:31:40  <andythenorth> if I handle cargo FF with a chain handling cb36, I can get something, but not correct result
20:32:49  <andythenorth> does an articulated road vehicle trailing part have a cargo subtype set for buy menu chain?
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20:36:15  <andythenorth> I need to fix all the trams in fact
20:36:17  <andythenorth> :)
20:36:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: any suggestions?  ^
20:36:46  <andythenorth> I can explain issue better if that helps
20:36:53  <andythenorth> maybe I'm missing a trick somewhere
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20:41:48  <frosch123> when you buy a vehicle, subtypes are all zero
20:42:09  <frosch123> i guess your issue is that you try to detect the last part using some variable
20:42:13  <frosch123> like position in consist
20:42:17  <andythenorth> yup
20:42:19  <frosch123> but that is not going to work in purchase list
20:42:23  <andythenorth> precisely
20:42:36  <andythenorth> I considered using a different ID for the vehicle, but then I have to rewrite all templates :P
20:42:47  <andythenorth> (e.g. last vehicle)
20:42:53  <frosch123> usualy i suggest to make all trailing parts return zero capacity in purchase list, and return the complete capacity with the first vehicle
20:43:08  <andythenorth> this would be the best fix for all HEQS trams
20:43:15  <andythenorth> they all have the issue to some extent
20:43:38  <frosch123> if all vehicles including the front have the same id you are screwed :p
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20:43:47  <andythenorth> nope
20:43:50  <andythenorth> should be ok :)
20:44:11  <andythenorth> so use cb36 on all tram locomotives I guess
20:44:45  <frosch123> just make sure to set the action 0 capacity property to a non-zero value. then you can do everything with cb 36 you like
20:44:55  <frosch123> (if you set the property to zero, the cb will not be called)
20:45:27  * andythenorth will experiments
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21:15:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: if cb36 is used, are all properties reset to 1?
21:15:35  <andythenorth> unless explicitly defined?
21:16:04  <andythenorth> (more likely a mistake by me) :P
21:17:55  <andythenorth> hmm
21:18:12  <andythenorth> if I use cb36 to adjust capacity, I also get weight 1t, speed 6mph
21:18:24  * andythenorth ponders
21:19:06  <Yexo> that's definitely an error by you
21:19:31  <andythenorth> what fun :(
21:20:01  <andythenorth> what could cause it?
21:20:20  * andythenorth examines
21:20:42  <MNIM> well, you can, obviously :P
21:22:53  <andythenorth> hmm
21:27:51  * andythenorth finds the answer
21:37:39  <andythenorth> hmm
21:38:22  <andythenorth> if I set the default cargo to GOOD(s), cb36 has a rather confused understanding of what to do
21:38:42  <andythenorth> all capacities come out multiplied by 0.5
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21:40:45  <andythenorth> same if default is mail
21:41:33  <andythenorth> is the correct answer to double all capacities?
21:42:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ I think this is a known issue?
21:43:19  <Yexo> yes, see
21:43:28  <Yexo> after CB36 the capacity multipliers are applied
21:43:36  <andythenorth> oh poop
21:43:51  <andythenorth> I can't think of a solution :P
21:44:48  <Yexo> don't se mail or goods as default
21:45:04  <andythenorth> there's nothing else I can rely on :(
21:45:21  <Yexo> that is indeed a problem with the current newgrf specs
21:45:25  <andythenorth> this vehicle refits to a limited range
21:45:37  * andythenorth explores cb15
21:46:54  <andythenorth> not ideal
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21:50:32  <andythenorth> I can rely on mail being in most games
21:50:37  <andythenorth> it's quite pathological to remove it
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21:56:05  <andythenorth> oh FFS
21:56:10  <andythenorth> this makes no sense at all
21:56:58  <supermop> mail?
21:57:02  <supermop> whats going on?
22:00:08  <frosch123> wow, that cargo magic image is only a year old now
22:00:14  <frosch123> i thought it existed way longer :o
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22:09:07  <nidhoegger> ive got a single question left: im running a dedicated server since today and a few friends and i got a very profitable network. will the money variable get an overrun if it gets too much?
22:09:19  <Yexo> no
22:09:24  <nidhoegger> cool
22:10:05  <Yexo> it can hold up to 9.22e18 and even after that it won't overflow
22:10:15  * andythenorth finds the bugs in his own code
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22:22:29  <andythenorth> goodnight - and thanks :)
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