Log for #openttd on 15th November 2011:
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00:03:02  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
00:05:50  * Belugas cannot tell, not watching weeds
00:06:08  * Belugas watches Walking deads and Vampire Diaries
00:06:14  <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, by some guys locked inside a room with a sackful of hash and a fridge and closet full of food for when they get hte munchies.
00:06:17  <Belugas> and Merlin, and Fringes
00:06:32  * Mazur never followed Weeds.
00:06:47  <Mazur> Saw a few episodes, decided it was not worth the time.
00:07:49  <supermop_> i think eddi was askig how to spell 'eighth'
00:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> weeds was on its height around the 3rd and 4th season, kinda degraded afterwards
00:07:54  <Mazur> NCIS, NCIS LA, Journeyman, HIGNFY, QI, The Big Bang Theory.
00:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and i watch way too many series
00:08:28  <Eddi|zuHause> lately i haven't been able to catch up over the week
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00:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, i was asking about the spelling of "9th"
00:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "8th"
00:09:54  <Mazur> Ninth.
00:10:05  <Mazur> No "e".
00:10:13  <Mazur> Eighth.
00:10:23  <Mazur> Eght plus an 'h'.
00:10:40  <Mazur> Or Eight plus an 'h', alternatively.
00:11:15  <supermop_> off for dinner, later
00:11:15  <Mazur> Depengin on whether you want to make a typo with the i or not.
00:11:18  <Mazur> ENjoy/
00:24:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23226 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23219): If you find a file, also use it.
00:24:52  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23227 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23219): The FileScanner should also consider the old directories.
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00:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but "eight" + "h" doesn't make any sense
00:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "th" is one letter, so it must be "eight" "remove t" "add th"
00:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not how you speak it
01:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (or i also speak it wrong)
01:01:21  <supermop_> english doesn't really have rules that make sense
01:02:04  <Eddi|zuHause> obviously. because it would be german then...
01:02:34  <supermop_> english is the post modern german
01:05:10  <supermop_> does anyone here do much photo or video work?
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02:55:16  <DabuYu> supermop_: i do some, what's the question
03:05:32  <supermop_> looking for a decent LCD
03:05:41  <supermop_> no room for a crt in my apartment
03:06:06  <DabuYu> ah - i must admit i don't have a specific LCD for that purpose
03:06:33  <DabuYu> but if you get one, for good photo and video display color calibration is recommended
03:07:33  <DabuYu> like this:
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03:08:28  <DabuYu> i've always worked with personal adjustments based on B/W and color charts
03:08:47  <DabuYu> but such product will definitely get better results
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03:09:35  <DabuYu> and, based on personal preference, an screen with a coating will make the color better, but it reflects terribly.
03:10:15  <DabuYu> *preference = experience - my preference now therefore is one without a coating :)
03:10:24  <supermop_> i'd rather have it look true than good
03:10:39  <supermop_> if it saves be an extra round of printing proofs
03:10:55  <DabuYu> with calibration you get closest to truth
03:11:07  <DabuYu> but you always have lcd -> printer conversion
03:11:42  <DabuYu> lcd = (s)RGB color space, printer uses something different (depends on printer, often cmyk)
03:12:36  <DabuYu> and that conversion often happens within the printer itself - even if the lcd displays correct, the printer might still change it to the worse
03:19:19  <supermop_> yeah
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04:09:48  <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho
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06:07:19  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the what problem? It actually might have fixed that though
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07:07:18  <appe> morning, gentlemen.
07:15:22  <andythenorth> moin
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07:40:33  <Celestar> \o
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07:50:08  * andythenorth wonders if it's worth fixing the tram offsets in ottd
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08:12:57  <Celestar> if there's a bug, it's worth fixing
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08:25:00  <andythenorth> trams travelling along / axis are some pixels too high in one direction and some pixels to low in the other
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08:25:12  <andythenorth> it's not a newgrf offset thing...
08:25:24  <andythenorth> could be the track graphics that are wrong rather than the vehicle path
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08:56:34  <Celestar> do we have some auto_ptr like class?
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09:04:35  <peter1138> probably, auto_ptr is deprecated isn't it?
09:06:01  <Celestar> in C++11 yeah
09:06:32  <Celestar> it'S unique_ptr now
09:10:26  <Celestar> there is a new "auto" 'datatype'
09:12:58  <TinoDidriksen> auto_ptr should be avoided. shared_ptr or unique_ptr are vastly better. Just use Boost?
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09:36:27  * Celestar tries to remember what the drawbacks of auto_ptr were
09:38:10  <peter1138> iirc we used it for something and it caused problems
09:38:15  <peter1138> but i can't where or what
09:38:18  <peter1138> *remember
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10:20:31  <peter1138> oh my god marten how could you
10:20:59  <Celestar> ?
10:22:56  <MNIM> Questionable Content.
10:23:17  <MNIM> Yes, martin, how could you?
10:23:27  <MNIM> he forgot to throw pintsize out.
10:23:40  <MNIM> great. Now we'll have videos ALL over the net.
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10:28:53  <planetmaker> hehe
10:28:57  <planetmaker> bloody Pintsize
10:29:30  <planetmaker> I wonder though what Marigold's antropopc will then do with him ;-)
10:29:53  <appe> what's pintzine?
10:29:55  <appe> size*
10:30:07  <planetmaker> appe, you need to read "Questionable Content"
10:30:10  <planetmaker> It's a robot
10:30:11  <MNIM> hmmmh, planetmaker, should we link that here?
10:31:20  <planetmaker>
10:31:31  <planetmaker> ^^ appe
10:31:59  <planetmaker> the newer comics are much nicer drawn, though
10:35:20  <appe> haha
10:35:23  <appe> neat
10:36:31  <planetmaker> MNIM, it might sometimes be "questionable content" by some hypocritical moral standards. But not by mine ;-)
10:36:46  <MNIM> True. :P
10:36:54  <MNIM> but that wasn't my only concern
10:37:33  <MNIM> I mean, that comic is pretty long, what're we at right now? more than 2000 comics. We don't want to distract our devs that long.
10:37:47  <Celestar>
10:37:49  <planetmaker> can't distract me. I read them all :-P
10:37:57  <Celestar> outsourced marketing to Bulgaria, haven'T they?
10:38:00  <MNIM> me too. :P
10:38:39  <planetmaker> hehe, Celestar
10:38:40  <appe> 9gag <3.
10:38:44  <planetmaker> enjoy :-P
10:39:06  <planetmaker> (that add is more questionable than that comic :-P )
10:39:51  <MNIM> hahaha
10:40:50  <MNIM> I don't envy the person who needs to have work done and gets distracted by finding it for the first time, though
10:41:16  <Celestar> planetmaker: that's just sad ...
10:48:17  <Celestar> .....
10:48:31  <Celestar> those end-to-end testers are driving me nuts.
10:48:38  <Noldo> who?
10:48:48  <Celestar> I don't need uber-nerds as testers. But they should have a rudimentary set of skills.
10:49:05  <Celestar> for example: Literacy would be of great help.
10:49:23  <Noldo> but reading instructions is practically cheating
10:49:38  <Noldo> you get unfair advantage compared to people who don't
10:49:42  <Celestar> I'm not talking about instructions.
10:49:54  <Celestar> I'm talking about reading the big: "ERROR: <message>"
10:50:05  <Noldo> works for that too
10:50:12  <Celestar> "I cannot see the reason for the error"
10:50:17  <Celestar> it's THERE.
10:50:23  <Celestar> IN BIG LETTERS. ON YOUR SCREEN.
10:51:12  <Celestar> reminds me of "kein Ostdeutsch" for the Germans among us :D
10:52:29  <planetmaker> Celestar, I answered the other day a complaint about FIRS. "It issues error E00"
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10:53:05  <planetmaker> Well. If he had continued to read, The next words in that error message are "You need OpenTTD 1.2.0 / trunk r22xyz or newer"
10:53:06  <planetmaker> oh well
10:53:12  <planetmaker> He was using 1.1.3
10:53:36  <planetmaker> that's how people are. Read until the first "dang!" and then act like hypnotized rabbits
10:54:54  <planetmaker> It also made me wonder: why do we put any text in the error message?
10:55:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
10:55:02  <andythenorth>
10:55:14  <andythenorth> "At the same time, there is evidence to suggest that people do not necessarily exhibit self-serving bias with respect to computer technologies. When they fail to achieve a desirable outcome when using a computer they often blame themselves, not the technology"
10:55:30  <andythenorth> hmm
10:55:42  <planetmaker>
10:56:05  <Celestar> planetmaker: just write "ASSHAT!" and be done with it
10:56:05  <Noldo> "I'm bad with computers"
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10:56:59  <planetmaker> nah, we wanna remain polite :-)
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10:57:29  <Celestar> what is FIRS in the first place? :P
10:57:32  <Celestar> !FIRS
10:57:40  <andythenorth> !FIRS
10:57:44  <andythenorth> rm -r FIRS
10:57:52  <Celestar> 141 pages O_o
10:58:44  <planetmaker> and
10:59:03  <planetmaker> pew. Lucky me, I have a backup
10:59:25  <planetmaker> actually two backups ;-)
11:01:08  <planetmaker> Celestar, it's the industry set for those who're bored of default industries and want something more expansive. But who don't want to care in great detail about strong inter-dependency wrt production levels to depend on concurrent delivery of N > 1 cargos
11:01:12  <peter1138> planetmaker, yeah, i read through all of QC when it was up to the 600s i think
11:04:50  <appe> uhm
11:05:07  <peter1138> hmm?
11:05:08  <appe> gives me some wierd translations
11:05:25  <planetmaker> in what way?
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11:05:34  <appe> the headlines are translated, and nothing else is.
11:05:38  <__ln___> appe: spelled w-e-i-r-d
11:05:39  * andythenorth tries to summarise FIRS
11:05:40  <andythenorth> fails
11:05:43  <appe> __ln___: ah, sorry.
11:05:51  <planetmaker> hehe, andythenorth :-)
11:06:03  <planetmaker> But that'd be a good exercise, writing a comprehensive readme file for FIRS
11:06:15  <planetmaker> It even became much longer than I anticipated for OpenGFX+ Trains
11:06:35  <planetmaker> And that's nearly only default vehicles and a few modified wagons. Well. Or a bit more :-)
11:06:37  <Celestar> planetmaker: seems like I gotta try it
11:06:43  <peter1138> andythenorth, btw, 0x40 & 0x41 are provisional, just for testing it ;p
11:06:56  <planetmaker> Celestar, definitely ;-)
11:07:01  <andythenorth> my proposal is also provisional :)
11:07:06  <andythenorth> I just needed to move it on a bit
11:07:30  <Celestar> planetmaker: and in some years, use that with destinations :P
11:07:32  <peter1138> i think it was suggested to use 0x80/0x81 to leave more room for type-specific properties
11:07:48  <planetmaker> Celestar, we played it with yacd
11:07:51  <planetmaker> it's awesome
11:07:56  <planetmaker> and not that easy
11:08:31  <peter1138> i wanna play EZ/YACD/YAIM/YAMA
11:08:32  <planetmaker> partly also as yacd would need to supply a mechanism to be disabled for certain cargos or so
11:08:35  <peter1138> hmm
11:08:39  <peter1138> i wanna play YAEZ/YACD/YAIM/YAMA
11:08:40  <peter1138> yes
11:08:41  <planetmaker> yama?
11:08:49  <peter1138> yet another map array
11:08:53  <planetmaker> ah :-)
11:09:09  * andythenorth wants to play YACS
11:09:11  <planetmaker> Well, peter1138, start or continue with item 1 ;-)
11:09:24  * planetmaker quickly hides
11:09:58  * andythenorth wants to play YASS
11:10:13  <andythenorth> Yet Another Ship Smoke
11:11:28  <planetmaker> :-P
11:11:33  <peter1138> question
11:11:33  <Noldo> what are the others?
11:11:50  <Noldo> cargo destinations,
11:11:54  <peter1138> the exist smoke things give a position for the smoke
11:11:56  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you could start by providing a _good_ spec
11:11:57  <peter1138> is that really necessary?
11:12:02  <peter1138> can't it be done with sprite offsets?
11:12:27  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the spec became an unwinnable problem :(
11:12:27  <planetmaker> smoke is not newgrf-able iirc
11:12:30  <andythenorth> I provided a spec
11:12:32  <andythenorth> of sorts
11:12:45  <peter1138> hmm, right, that's the problem, yes
11:12:47  <andythenorth> but then I was told that I hadn't considered the need for full newgrf control of effect vehicles :(
11:12:57  <planetmaker> so, is there a FS issue about it. And with them?
11:13:06  * andythenorth will look
11:13:24  <planetmaker> otherwise every thought has to be re-thought again and again and again
11:13:35  <andythenorth> we concluded that we couldn't do it because it might block the future addition of newgrf effect vehicles
11:13:41  <andythenorth> so we had to spec that
11:13:44  * andythenorth rummages
11:13:56  * andythenorth doesn't care about newgrf effect vehicles, but others might
11:13:59  <planetmaker> goal scripts might drive them :-P
11:14:06  <peter1138> goal scripts?
11:14:07  <peter1138> o_O
11:14:15  <planetmaker> peter1138, would make sense, not?
11:14:26  <planetmaker> Like a goal script having a submarine, heli or ufo appear?
11:14:30  <andythenorth>
11:14:31  <peter1138> oh right
11:14:34  <peter1138> that sort of effect :S
11:14:49  <peter1138> and then there's the chimney smoke effect
11:14:50  <planetmaker> though... that's disaster vehicles. So maybe I'm wrong
11:14:58  <planetmaker> that's different and I might have been confused
11:15:10  <peter1138> hmm
11:15:12  <peter1138> yes
11:15:26  <andythenorth> < spec of sorts (via mr. frosch), also pictures and crap
11:15:28  <peter1138> BreakdownSMoke vehicle
11:15:29  <peter1138> o_O
11:15:35  <andythenorth> nearly one year old :P
11:15:54  <peter1138> they're all specially hard coded
11:15:55  <peter1138> hmm
11:15:57  <andythenorth> in that year nobody has ever said 'omg, I really need to provide different sparks for electric vehicles'
11:16:36  <peter1138> what effects do you need for ships? steam & diesel smoke? :p
11:16:43  <andythenorth> yup
11:16:50  <peter1138> so that doesn't need new sprites
11:16:51  <andythenorth> they're available, they're just not in the right place
11:16:58  <andythenorth> I need x, y, z control
11:16:59  <peter1138> but does need a way to define the position
11:17:01  <peter1138> yes
11:17:09  <andythenorth> I need to be able to have n (some ships have > 1 funnel)
11:17:22  <andythenorth> and the triggers on acceleration might need adjusting
11:17:34  <peter1138> they always accelerate
11:17:36  <andythenorth> currently ships smoke only briefly :)
11:17:47  <peter1138> they smoke at all?
11:17:52  <andythenorth> occasionally
11:17:55  <peter1138> hmm
11:17:57  <peter1138> ok
11:18:02  <peter1138> never noticed
11:18:24  <andythenorth> FISH ones smoke
11:18:28  <andythenorth> default ones don't
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11:25:59  <planetmaker> Noldo, the 3rd one is infrastructure maintenance
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11:31:08  <TGYoshi> Since you guys are so ultra-great in math (maybe) you probably know a line equation for this graph:
11:33:22  <planetmaker> TGYoshi, something like sin(x) - x
11:33:40  <Celestar> yeah.
11:33:41  <TGYoshi> Nice idea
11:34:00  <Celestar> only the 45° sound wrong, don't they with sin(x) -x ?
11:34:18  * Celestar fires up gnuplot
11:34:23  <Noldo>
11:34:30  <TGYoshi> Cool, it seems to work
11:34:34  <TGYoshi> thanks for now
11:34:45  <TGYoshi> I guess I can figure the rest out
11:34:51  <planetmaker> probably a cosine, though ;-)
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11:35:07  <Celestar> depends :P
11:36:21  <planetmaker> doesn't really matter ;-)
11:36:41  <planetmaker> cos(x) = sin(x+pi/2)
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11:37:25  <Celestar> well
11:37:33  <Celestar> the "graph" somehow misses an origin :P
11:37:36  <Celestar> so it's hard to say :D
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11:37:50  <planetmaker> if you don't interpret the | and - as axis: yes
11:38:16  <TGYoshi> mm
11:38:48  <TGYoshi> The origin doesnÂŽt matter
11:38:51  <TGYoshi> ItÂŽs about the shape :P
11:38:57  <Noldo> what are you using it for?
11:39:14  <Celestar> oooh
11:39:17  <Celestar> there is a scale
11:39:19  <Celestar> 1 and 3
11:39:49  <TGYoshi> Such a shape for another shape
11:40:04  <TGYoshi> The top of a 3d object got that shape
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11:52:47  <TGYoshi> I guess the derivative of sin(x/2)-x/2 is cos(x/2)-1, isnÂŽt it?
11:53:27  <planetmaker> no
11:53:41  <planetmaker> 0.5 cos(x/2) - 0.5
11:53:41  <TGYoshi>
11:53:41  <TGYoshi> gy=1&igl=1&igs=0&iax=1&ila=1&xmin=-15.919013330035359&xmax=12.416282533455792&ymin=-6.840751636862924&ymax=9.102743030313068
11:53:42  <TGYoshi> lol
11:54:04  <TGYoshi> aha
11:54:27  <TGYoshi> Why that for the sin -> cos part?
11:55:18  <Celestar> hm?
11:55:23  <planetmaker> [sin(a*x)]' = sin'(a*x) * [a*x]'
11:55:39  <planetmaker> chain rule for derivatives
11:56:00  <Celestar> d/dx [a(b(x))] = d/dx [a(b(x)] + d/dx b(x)
11:56:04  <Celestar> wtb [Tex]
11:56:09  <planetmaker> :-)
11:56:28  <Noldo> I put a function in your fuction so you can...
11:57:10  <TGYoshi> Oh, of course, got it. Thanks :3
11:58:01  <Celestar> and erm
11:58:04  <Celestar> s/+/*
11:58:40  * andythenorth writes a fuction
12:02:14  <peter1138> i once had link to a full-window browser-javascript-based graphing thing
12:02:19  <peter1138> i can't remember it :(
12:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i must be in the wrong channel...
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12:05:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why?
12:05:48  <andythenorth> no never-ending discussion?
12:06:10  <TGYoshi> We can start another discussion about 0/0 if you prefer
12:07:48  <TGYoshi> Anyway, IÂŽm off to school ... [a]
12:12:52  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23228 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23227): FileScanner::Scan() still did not scan all required directories for basesets.
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12:28:07  <Celestar> bah
12:28:14  * Celestar thinks he's getting ill
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12:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "Schönheit (denn gesund wirst du von allein)" :p
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12:57:26  <peter1138> i've got a bug report, fast forward isn't very fast with lots of ais!!!!
12:57:49  <andythenorth> buy a bigger box :P
12:58:04  <andythenorth> are the AIs MP aware?
12:58:16  * andythenorth can guess the answer
13:00:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: i don't think ais team up against the humans in mp
13:00:32  <andythenorth> I should have said multi-threaded :P
13:00:48  <planetmaker> they aren't
13:01:06  <andythenorth> I win my bet
13:01:17  <planetmaker> good. Here's a hazelnut
13:01:24  <planetmaker> Other prices are currently out ;-)
13:04:57  <andythenorth> thanks
13:05:09  <andythenorth> where's Eddi|zuHause when I need him? :)
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13:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause> eating
13:20:31  <andythenorth> :)
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14:35:27  <Belugas> hello
14:46:58  <peter1138> hi
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14:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so what's the emergency?
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15:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... cost... with lack of comprehensive lists of real costs, maybe: purchase cost based on engine type and weight, running costs based on power and top speed?
15:13:38  <TWerkhoven> sounds sensible
15:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> how often is the running cost callback called?
15:20:03  <planetmaker> start/stop. Depot and railtype probably
15:20:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pikka has a really nice blog post about how he calculates costs
15:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> link?
15:20:49  * andythenorth looks
15:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm fairly sure it's more often than that
15:21:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this, and some related posts on his blog:
15:22:04  <frosch123> running cost callback is called constantly
15:22:36  <andythenorth>
15:22:38  <frosch123> once per day for a vehicle iirc
15:23:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for FISH I have costs from a spreadsheet, sounds complicated, but isn't really
15:23:38  <andythenorth> I use things like number of crew, weight, type of fuel for running costs
15:23:45  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the whole CETS is from a single spreadsheet ;-)
15:23:56  <planetmaker> every single frigging property :-P
15:24:01  <andythenorth> with multipliers for insane things like hovercraft powered  by gas turbines
15:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: now i need persistent storage of the motion counter to determine the amount of tiles moved between two calls
15:24:24  <peter1138> CETS looks nice
15:24:33  <peter1138> can't wait for it to be playable :)
15:24:36  * andythenorth needs a new trainset
15:24:50  <andythenorth> canset?
15:24:52  <andythenorth> no canset :P
15:24:54  <peter1138> lol
15:25:06  <peter1138> you scuppered that one
15:25:10  <andythenorth> all my fault
15:25:11  <andythenorth> me
15:25:13  <andythenorth> I did it
15:25:19  <peter1138> yup, all your fault
15:25:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you know that I take your comment about me in canset thread as a compliment?
15:25:29  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: don't you think you overcomplicate stuff?
15:25:42  <andythenorth> what else is stuff for, if not over-complicating :P
15:25:56  <frosch123> the driver is paid on time, and not of distance traveled
15:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: my idea is that rather than running cost per year, i'd have running cost per tile
15:26:14  <planetmaker> ehm... why *that*?
15:26:19  <planetmaker> Do it per day and by velocity
15:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. fuel costs
15:26:22  <planetmaker> it's equivalent
15:26:22  <andythenorth> related to distance travel
15:26:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you should also check slope
15:26:55  <andythenorth> I think pikka checks whether the vehicle is accelerating (there's a var for that?)
15:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: afair pikka's scheme fails when the max speed of the track is lower than the max speed of the engine
15:27:44  <andythenorth> oh, so he checks speed against maximum?
15:27:50  <andythenorth> and assumes acceleration otherwise
15:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: pikkas post doesn't contain any technical information, though
15:29:21  <frosch123> pikka checks speed for != 0
15:29:49  <andythenorth> pikka says " Incidentally, the technical specs and subroutines for the variable running costs in NARS are available if anyone wants to use them in their own sets."
15:29:53  <frosch123> 0 for stopped, FAIL for running (i.e. propertY)
15:30:25  <andythenorth> does the game actually know the power output of the vehicle at this point?
15:30:37  <andythenorth> the physics does, in some sense
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15:32:41  <frosch123> ttd physics assume constant power output
15:32:52  <frosch123> only limited by te, but independent of speed
15:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so what speed is 1 tile per day?
15:34:27  <peter1138> 1 tile per day
15:34:52  <peter1138> 16 subunits
15:34:58  <peter1138> 74 ticks?
15:35:23  <peter1138> iirc, 1 subunit / tick = 60 mph
15:35:24  <frosch123> maybe 16 mph is one tile per day
15:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> blatant use of half-knowledge, if grf-speed-units = added to subspeed, advance 1 unit every time it overflows
15:36:35  <frosch123> @calc 16*256 / 74
15:36:35  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 55.3513513514
15:36:40  <Terkhen> hello
15:36:45  <frosch123> would match about 60
15:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> then every 74 ticks you must move 16*256=4096 "subspeed" units in 74 ticks
15:37:11  <Eddi|zuHause> err... whatever
15:37:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 55km/h-ish?
15:37:27  <peter1138> hmm, sorry, what was the real question? :S
15:37:36  * andythenorth gets lost trying to do physics
15:38:00  <frosch123> yeah, km/h-ish, not mph
15:38:00  <andythenorth> running cost directly proportional to fuel consumption?
15:38:08  <andythenorth> maybe not
15:38:12  <peter1138> yeah
15:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no, wait, a train advances twice per tick
15:38:24  * andythenorth will go back to making email newsletters :P
15:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 16*256 / 74/2
15:38:43  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756756757
15:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, looks like 55km/h equals around 2 tiles per day
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15:54:14  <peter1138> vehicle movement code is confusing
15:54:20  <peter1138> speed * 3 / 4?
15:55:01  <peter1138> i just have to keep reminding myself that it's a game and it doesn't need precision
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15:57:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: a tile is 668.(216) km, so 668.(216)/24 km/h
15:58:01  <peter1138> :D
15:58:07  <Rubidium> hmm, sorry... mixing up numbers ;) 664.(216) km-ish or 668 km
15:58:28  <Rubidium> quite simple math though
15:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 668/24
15:58:46  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.8333333333
15:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so an ingame day has 27h? :)
15:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, no, misread you
15:59:29  <Rubidium> no
15:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 664.216/24
15:59:57  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756666667
16:00:14  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 664.216216/24
16:00:14  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756756667
16:00:21  * andythenorth ponders running cost using consist weight as a factor
16:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so yes, that's around the same value
16:00:39  <andythenorth> also...rolling resistance of vehicles :P
16:00:53  <Rubidium> <- for the more thorough definition ;)
16:00:57  <andythenorth> also, requirement for brakemen, drivers mates, etc
16:01:11  <andythenorth> also man with red flag walking in front of vehicle
16:01:45  <andythenorth>
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16:28:25  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Unless I calculated it totally wrong for YACD, 128 km/h-ish means 1 tick / lu
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16:30:02  <TomyLobo> hi
16:30:11  <TomyLobo> is there an alternate graphics set for toyland?
16:30:28  <TomyLobo> the default one in opengfx is kinda crappy
16:32:28  <SpComb> yes, there's the temperate, desert and arctic ones
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16:33:03  <TomyLobo> but i've played them all
16:33:14  <TomyLobo> i want to play with toyland's industry chains, vehicles etc
16:36:36  <andythenorth> meh
16:36:37  <andythenorth> toyland
16:36:55  <TomyLobo> but especially the empty terrain is confusing and eyecancery
16:38:21  <frosch123> then you never played with the original toyland :p
16:38:56  <planetmaker> toyland2mars conversion ;-)
16:39:12  <frosch123> <- ogfx is so much better than that
16:39:26  <TomyLobo> planetmaker hehe nah
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16:39:56  <TomyLobo> frosch123 woah you're right
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16:49:27  <Terkhen> yes, ogfx is actually the good one
16:49:36  <Terkhen> if you don't like it, the only other option is probably toyland2mars
16:51:48  <TomyLobo> but that gives me temperate vehicles and industries
16:53:38  <TomyLobo> ages ago, i've seen a graph with all the industries in a climate. i think it was on the wiki, but i cant find it anymore
16:54:51  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: additionally then use ogfx+trains with the right parameters, if you like toyland trains
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16:57:05  <TGYoshi> Err, playing in toyland?
16:57:10  <TGYoshi> Why does it even exist..
16:58:26  <TomyLobo> found it \o/
16:59:38  <planetmaker> TGYoshi: because it's a nice and unique climate
17:00:18  <TGYoshi> Yay...
17:00:26  <TGYoshi> ItÂŽs what you call nice ;)
17:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well... if that crazy NUTS were to get off the ground, it could be a nice toyland set
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17:53:32  <planetmaker> what's in newgrf the result of an actionD which divides a/a for a == 0?
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17:58:17  <frosch123> if the specs say nothing, then it is undefined
17:58:46  <planetmaker> I didn't find anything
17:59:35  <glx> and what does the code say ?
17:59:46  <frosch123> looks like both ottd and ttdp return a for a/0
17:59:51  <planetmaker> I didn't yet look, glx ;-)
18:00:21  <frosch123> grfact.asm:3301
18:00:32  <frosch123> newgrf.cpp:6486
18:00:33  <planetmaker> so 0/0 = 0
18:00:41  <frosch123> yes
18:00:56  <planetmaker> and 2/2 = 1
18:01:09  <planetmaker> so a/a is basically a test of a != 0
18:01:26  <frosch123> yeah :p
18:01:31  <frosch123> who uses it like that? :p
18:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd be crazy to rely on that
18:01:40  <planetmaker> I think NML does:
18:02:24  <planetmaker> I try to understand why not all parameter to swedish rails work like they should. But I fail to see a fault in my code there, so I thought to look at NFO level
18:02:41  <planetmaker> (line 10 in the paste)
18:03:15  <frosch123> why are you not using grf2html for that?
18:03:29  <planetmaker> good question :-)
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18:04:05  <planetmaker> I probably should install it :-)
18:04:26  <planetmaker> or rather make it known in the path
18:06:44  <planetmaker> errm...
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18:44:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23229 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt:
18:44:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
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18:47:24  <TomyLobo> do power stations ever disappear?
18:47:43  <planetmaker> default: no
18:47:46  <z-MaTRiX> hi
18:47:48  <z-MaTRiX> :)
18:47:53  <planetmaker> newgrf: depends
18:47:55  <TomyLobo> is it a config option?
18:47:58  <TomyLobo> ah
18:48:09  <z-MaTRiX> what is your opinion of an 64MB ati 9000 agp card?
18:48:18  <z-MaTRiX> (under linux)
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19:17:31  * andythenorth ponders what to do
19:18:35  <z-MaTRiX> andythenorth<< play openttd? :)
19:18:42  <andythenorth> nah
19:18:45  <andythenorth> hmm
19:18:51  <andythenorth> peter1138 wanted a network game of something
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19:27:27  <appe> hm
19:27:47  <appe> i cant seem to find a grf containing antonov 225.
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19:29:56  <planetmaker> search the russian forums
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19:34:28  * andythenorth does work
19:34:43  <andythenorth> why are the tram offsets wrong?  I guess I should read the code :P
19:39:25  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23230 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Codechange: stupid casing for UnPause. It's a single word, not two words "CamelCased" after eachother
19:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: either your sprite offsets are wrong, or tram rails are misaligned
19:40:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: could be either
19:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theory, road vehicles and trams should have the exact same alignment
19:40:47  <andythenorth> let me screenshot
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19:43:19  <MNIM> Appe: I thought av8 had one?
19:43:53  <MNIM> or was that the 124?
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19:44:58  <appe> not what i can see
19:46:28  <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, YAIM/YAEZ/YACD/YAMA :D
19:46:40  <andythenorth> peter1138: and YACS :P
19:46:57  <peter1138> wouldn't have be a grf set?
19:47:08  <andythenorth> he
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19:48:48  <andythenorth> so I need to build some patches and crap
19:50:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
19:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what if you let that same vehicle drive on roads?
19:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and compare it with trucks?
19:52:28  * andythenorth tries
19:52:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23231 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Make train var 0xF3 consistent with TTDPatch.
19:55:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: inconclusive
19:55:43  <andythenorth>
19:55:53  <andythenorth> the correct answer could be 'my tram is drawn too narrow'
19:55:56  <andythenorth> :|
19:56:35  <MNIM> Well, it looks to me like the tram going down is offset too low
19:56:59  <andythenorth> yes, it obscures the rail
19:57:05  <andythenorth> and the one going up is too high
20:03:19  <andythenorth> peter1138: where's YAEZ?  And YAMA?
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20:10:47  <peter1138> pass ;)
20:11:08  <andythenorth> meh :D
20:11:25  <peter1138> andythenorth, fix your sprite offsets ;)
20:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you make the tram narrower, of course you have to compensate the offsets
20:12:32  <andythenorth> bah
20:12:44  <andythenorth> now I can't just reuse angles :P
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20:16:30  <peter1138> :)
20:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the truck doesn't seem to have correct offsets either
20:17:05  <andythenorth> where's the code that lets me set different offset according to drive side?
20:17:10  <andythenorth> is there a varact 2 for that?
20:17:13  * andythenorth looks
20:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be one of the TTDPatch flags
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20:18:15  * andythenorth looks
20:19:32  <andythenorth> hmm
20:19:47  <andythenorth> wiki doesn't know about a var I can check for 'drive side' - only a string
20:21:02  <MNIM> D:
20:21:04  <andythenorth> with drive on right - offsets look ok
20:21:04  <MNIM> wat de
20:21:16  <MNIM> ottd just crashed on me
20:21:18  <andythenorth> so I need to write custom real sprites with different offsets for drive on left
20:21:23  <andythenorth> and use action 7 or so
20:21:36  <andythenorth> or...
20:21:50  <planetmaker> <-- VarAction2 06
20:21:53  <MNIM> hmmmh.
20:21:57  <MNIM> again
20:22:02  <planetmaker> or action7 86
20:22:03  * MNIM blames the newgrfs
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20:27:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: thanks
20:29:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23232 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Change: move the "default" overrides out of the baseset in order to ensure they all use the same values
20:30:38  <andythenorth> is adjusting the offsets in the newgrf the correct solution?
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20:46:35  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23233 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Refactor maximum and actually transported cargo amount of towns into a reusable struct.
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21:04:43  * andythenorth ponders why RV offsets are treated differently for RHS and LHS drive
21:05:33  *** hanf [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:05:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's to do with the bounding box. the center of the bounding box is not the anchor point of the sprite
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21:05:50  * andythenorth reads code
21:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> if it were, the offsets would be the same
21:06:23  <Eddi|zuHause> but the anchor point is the back (invisible) corner of the bounding box, so if you make the vehicle narrower than the bounding box, you must adjust the offset
21:07:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i already told that that is not the case for vehicles
21:07:36  <frosch123> the anchor point for vehicle sprites is indeed the center of vehicle (on ground)
21:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: then why is the anchor point different for the / view depending on the travel direction?
21:09:47  <frosch123> for trains it is 4/8 from the front of the vehicle
21:09:53  <andythenorth> I don't mind if the answer is 'code custom offsets in the grf'
21:09:54  <frosch123> independent of vehicle length
21:10:01  <andythenorth> ^^ just seems a bit odd
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21:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and coincidentally that difference matches exactly the offset between the corners of the bounding box
21:10:21  <frosch123> though that might change when fs#???? gets fixed
21:10:32  <frosch123> which we should imo do, before grfs start to rely on that bug :p
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21:11:17  <LordAro> evening
21:11:24  <andythenorth> hi LordAro
21:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean fs#3569?
21:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> this has nothing to do with that
21:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what you mean is the position of the vehicle on the map
21:12:34  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that is indeed the center of the bounding box
21:12:39  <frosch123> UpdateDeltaXY defines the offset between the bounding box back corner, and the vehicle position
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21:13:22  <frosch123> hmm, ok, that way...
21:13:28  <frosch123> yeah, you might be right then
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21:18:19  <andythenorth> so it's not an easy thing to transform according to drive side?
21:18:31  <andythenorth> I have to check and adjust each vehicle?
21:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it should be the same for all vehicles
21:19:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as long as they are drawn to the same width scale
21:19:07  <andythenorth> so ott could do the transform?
21:19:12  <andythenorth> oh
21:19:14  <andythenorth> no then
21:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: all this offset and length mess might be a good thing for grfv8
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21:21:55  * andythenorth contemplates disabling HEQS if drive side is 'left'
21:22:01  <andythenorth> but that's rather an odd idea
21:23:04  <planetmaker> :-P
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21:23:55  <frosch123> would have expected the reverse behaviour from andy
21:24:12  <andythenorth> in my test (so far) the issue only shows up for LH drive
21:24:17  <andythenorth> I haven't tested all angles
21:24:30  <andythenorth> now I've noticed it, it's bugging me :P
21:24:33  <andythenorth> most people won't care
21:24:52  <frosch123> most people drive on the right anyway
21:25:15  <andythenorth> changing drive side in my game - explains why I've more than once gone through HEQS and tweaked all offsets, thinking 'how did I get it so wrong?'
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21:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there has been some remote island that switched from right to left
21:27:47  <LordAro> frosch123: most people drive on the wrong side of the road ;)
21:28:16  * Belugas drives at the center of the road
21:28:34  <frosch123> well, it's generally best to drive on that side of the road, which the other cars driving in your direction choose
21:28:52  <planetmaker> not that easy though ;-)
21:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally people fail at that
21:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but it appears only germans actually have a word for that :p
21:31:15  <planetmaker> oh, it was quite weired when I turned right from a one-way road and wondered why on the next traffic lights all cars were facing the direction towards me... until I noticed that I better and quickly drive two lanes further left ;-)
21:31:55  <andythenorth> hmm
21:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
21:32:08  <andythenorth> none if this will get my email newsletter written :P
21:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause>
21:32:57  * andythenorth wants to do a good day's work, and is running out of day to do it with
21:33:25  <Terkhen> doing nothing can also be very satisfying when done sparingly :P
21:34:18  <planetmaker> you should quote links with http:// , Eddi|zuHause
21:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> only if your url parser is stupid
21:35:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did czech drive on left before ww2?
21:35:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: whole of (former) austria drove on left
21:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the germans tried to "clean up" that mess
21:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't quite finish the job with austrian railways. up to now, in some regions in austria trains drive on the left
21:39:00  <frosch123> hmm, according to wiki, it was "left" everywhere, before napolean messed it up
21:39:30  <frosch123> though it does not mention the reasoning of napoleon
21:39:31  <Terkhen> yes, it is a stupid mess that acomplishes nothing
21:40:11  <Eddi|zuHause> in france, trains also drive on the left
21:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> except in alsace
21:41:18  <glx> and metro drive on the right so trains can't use the network IIRC
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21:55:55  <andythenorth> I should raise a fs ticket about offsets and drive side?  Or it's an issue for HEQS?
21:58:09  <Rubidium> I'd argue the offsets are the same as in TTDPatch, so they match the specs
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21:58:24  <Rubidium> even though one might argue the specs are wrong on that point
21:59:03  <andythenorth> I can make it a HEQS issue
21:59:05  <Rubidium> however, changing those specs without breaking older NewGRFs is (IMO) way too much work, which is basically why FS#3569 is still not fixed (and probably won't be fixed)
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21:59:30  <andythenorth> nml could fix it?
21:59:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no
22:00:35  <andythenorth> no way to write every real sprite twice, with a transform on the offsets?
22:00:37  <andythenorth> then branch?
22:00:57  <andythenorth> according to drive side
22:02:35  <planetmaker> of course you could give different offsets for different variable values
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22:02:44  <planetmaker> but you can do that in nfo, too
22:03:00  <andythenorth> only manually :|
22:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you do that once in your template
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22:04:00  <andythenorth> I'd have to ditch action 3 for cargos
22:04:13  <andythenorth> and do cargo graphics switch on a varact 2 instead
22:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
22:05:00  <planetmaker> no, why?
22:06:01  <planetmaker> the action3 would link to a lhs / rhs drive switch which has the graphics for that particular cargo
22:06:19  <andythenorth> that's a lot of switches :P
22:06:27  <andythenorth> still, could be templated
22:06:39  <andythenorth> and most of the offsets are defines already
22:06:43  <andythenorth> so it's possible
22:07:03  <andythenorth> if I do this, will you fix ottd in future and screw my grf?
22:07:03  <planetmaker> the switch would be part of the template
22:07:43  <andythenorth> yup
22:07:47  <andythenorth> I can see how to do it
22:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, GRF specs are guaranteed to be backwards compatible
22:08:36  <andythenorth> meh
22:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: except grfv8 for the next ~2 month
22:08:40  <andythenorth> writing code is fun anyway
22:09:28  <andythenorth> I should update the newgrf wiki with information about this
22:09:49  <andythenorth> it's another little piece of live ordnance for newgrf authors
22:12:08  <andythenorth> trip over it and it will explode all over your face :P
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22:16:30  <andythenorth> good night
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22:51:40  <Terkhen> good night
22:54:03  <planetmaker> good night
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23:21:07  <frosch123> night
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