Log for #openttd on 12th December 2011:
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01:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that is good to know.
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05:38:24  <Moussekateer> hiya
05:40:50  <Moussekateer> I have a (hopefully) simple question about running a server
05:42:12  <Moussekateer> I'm running a dedicated server for my friends and I and there is one aspect I am stuck on. If the server dies for whatever reason, how would I get it to reload the game state before it died instead of generating a new map?
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06:03:17  <Rubidium> Moussekateer: -g <nameofsavegame>
06:04:27  <Moussekateer> Rubidium: Ah thank you very much
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07:21:03  <planetmaker> moin
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09:28:53  <planetmaker> <-- hach. That was fun
09:32:48  <peter1138> heh
09:33:24  <peter1138> ""proper proportions are attainable in pixelart and unattainable in 3D-rendered art"
09:33:29  <peter1138> what ???
09:33:34  <planetmaker> :-)
09:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sure :p
09:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> reply that the only real way is to use cubi... i mean voxels
09:34:36  * MNIM whacks Eddi|zuHause on the head
09:34:52  <peter1138> :D
09:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it is BOTH pixel art AND 3D :p
09:36:17  <planetmaker> 3D is so yesterday. 4D is the future
09:36:19  <peter1138> "looks ridiculous when you zoom out" ... and those stubby vehicles don't look ridiculous when zoomed in?
09:36:29  <peter1138> we have 4D
09:36:33  <planetmaker> psst!
09:37:11  <planetmaker> though granted, OpenTTD has only 1D
09:37:13  <peter1138> The fourth dimension: motion_counter
09:37:32  <MNIM> lol, if you were to do OTTD in proper scale trains would be a factor ten longer, and train lines hundred, or more
09:37:34  <peter1138> 1 Deluxesional?
09:37:49  <planetmaker> OpenTT_D_ ;-)
09:38:03  <peter1138> MNIM, quite
09:38:16  <MNIM> now that'd be a challenge to play
09:38:19  <planetmaker> MNIM: and towns would be larger than a 2048**2 map
09:38:30  <MNIM> true.
09:38:35  <peter1138> not all towns
09:38:52  <MNIM> well yeah, the big ones.
09:39:01  <peter1138> hmm, what tile scale was that?
09:39:14  <peter1138> at 25m, then it's 51km, which would be a bloody big city
09:39:39  <planetmaker> 51km would be like the European capitals
09:39:41  <planetmaker> so...
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09:40:06  <MNIM> that being said, I wouldn't object to having towns with bigger blocks. it's kind of odd to have a railway park in a city that's as big as the city itself
09:40:26  <namad7> which rolelr coaster ycoon game was best, and is there a roller coaster tycoon open project remake? also... does open TTD have a tutorial? i'd like to play but its so confusing i'm getting confused
09:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> does "european capitals" mean "capitals of europe" or "capitals in europe"?
09:40:59  <peter1138> capitals in europe
09:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "capitals of europe" would be brussels, luxemburg and straßburg
09:42:07  <MNIM> well, that's what they claim, yes.
09:42:08  <peter1138> but i still doubt they're 51km in length/width
09:42:22  <MNIM> but we all know that europe's true capitals are berlin and paris.
09:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that's 1/3 of the way from here to berlin
09:42:54  <MNIM> peter: paris counts, I think
09:43:01  <peter1138> paris isn't that big
09:43:06  <MNIM> that is, including it's suburbs.
09:43:57  <peter1138> anyway
09:44:03  <peter1138> it's still a silly scale :)
09:44:15  <planetmaker> @calc sqrt(891)
09:44:15  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 29.8496231132
09:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(892)
09:44:17  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 29.8663690461
09:44:19  <planetmaker> well, 30
09:44:21  <planetmaker> 30km
09:44:29  <MNIM> paris urban area covers 2845km2
09:44:36  <MNIM> metro is even bigger.
09:44:41  <peter1138> @calc sqrt(2845)
09:44:41  <DorpsGek> peter1138: 53.3385414124
09:44:44  <peter1138> just ;)
09:44:55  <MNIM> @calc sqrt(17175)
09:44:55  <DorpsGek> MNIM: 131.053424221
09:45:03  <planetmaker> @calc sqrt(1572)
09:45:03  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 39.6484552032
09:45:06  <MNIM> 131 across for the metropolitan.
09:45:08  <planetmaker> London is 40km
09:45:19  <peter1138> anyway, i'd like to see 32bpp ez sprites done in the correct dimensions
09:45:27  <peter1138> apparently it "looks ridiculous when you zoom out"
09:45:33  <planetmaker> :-)
09:45:43  <MNIM>
09:45:50  <MNIM> that's my reference anyway :P
09:45:52  <peter1138> ttd vehicles look ridiculous? heh
09:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: isn't that just a matter of cropping correctly?
09:46:26  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not for the vehicles
09:46:31  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, cropping?
09:46:37  <planetmaker> their dimensions are differently weighted than the TTD vehicles
09:46:48  <planetmaker> and houses are very much inconsistent, too
09:46:49  <peter1138> < you saw that right?
09:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't check the 32bpp forum
09:47:37  <peter1138> :)
09:48:33  <peter1138> it's blatantly obviously wrong when compared like that :)
09:48:42  <peter1138> as planetmaker says, toyland maybe :)
09:48:59  <peter1138> i have no idea how well those tall sprites will work with bridges/tunnels though
09:49:01  <planetmaker> I love actually their looks. They're very nice. For toyland
09:49:19  <planetmaker> indeed, workings with tunnels & co will need looking at
09:49:27  <MNIM> meh, lets face it, dimensions are always fucked in games, especially strategy games.
09:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but since they're 3D models, can't you just adjust like 3 parameters and get useful results?
09:49:53  <planetmaker> not sure
09:49:55  <peter1138> not really
09:50:02  <planetmaker> one would need to ask them
09:50:24  <peter1138> that particular one needs to have stuff added in the middle
09:50:35  <namad7> does open TTD have a tutorial? i'd like to play but its so confusing i'm getting confused
09:50:38  <peter1138> and the be stretched to be a bit wider
09:50:56  <peter1138> also there's too much contrast in the lighting
09:51:06  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok.
09:51:23  <peter1138> the original sprite looks like an engine, albeit a bit shorter
09:51:37  <peter1138> the 32bpp one looks... stubby, brio-toy like
09:51:42  <planetmaker> namad7: not really. There are tutorial pages on the wiki, though. Did you check them?
09:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> 32bpp needs a project manager. a BIG one.
09:51:50  <planetmaker> And there's various videos on youtube
09:52:04  <MNIM> namad7:
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09:52:09  <planetmaker> a 'BIG' one, Eddi|zuHause?
09:52:26  <planetmaker> I thought it had a 'project manager'?
09:52:33  <peter1138>
09:52:34  <peter1138> oh
09:52:40  <peter1138> even brio do long ones
09:53:01  <planetmaker> he
09:53:41  <peter1138> heh, brio shinkansen :)
09:54:35  <MNIM> hmmmh, that reminds me, I need to look for kid's toys some time this (next) year...
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10:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker:
10:03:43  <planetmaker> oh. :-P
10:04:40  <peter1138> :)
10:05:02  <peter1138> and PM's response is precisely why minecraft-style infinite worlds won't work :)
10:05:12  <peter1138> as much as i'd love it...
10:06:55  <planetmaker> you mean RB's response?
10:08:28  <peter1138> erm
10:09:00  <peter1138> yes, that one
10:14:12  * peter1138 smirks at pikka
10:14:45  <peter1138> or with, i suppose
10:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> whit!
10:22:28  <SpComb> minecraft has some very explicity block-length limits for what area it runs game state in around the player :)
10:23:47  <peter1138> hmm
10:23:56  <peter1138> SpComb, yes
10:24:08  <SpComb> monsters only spawn 64 block away etc
10:26:54  <peter1138> hmm, blitter bug
10:27:49  <peter1138> opengfx rail fences at 2x zoom out..
10:28:01  <peter1138> appear to be doubled up
10:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> have the black lines in 4x zoom been fixed yet?
10:28:15  <peter1138> ages ago
10:30:06  <peter1138> oh
10:30:07  <peter1138> apparently
10:30:31  <peter1138> it's a local bug :p
10:34:32  <peter1138> hmm
10:34:41  <peter1138> how can i have persistent tar files?
10:38:36  <planetmaker> persistent?
10:38:43  <planetmaker> aren't they?
10:39:58  <peter1138> erm
10:40:08  <peter1138> i mean give them a file slot
10:41:26  <peter1138> spriteloader/png.cpp uses PNG_SLOT
10:43:24  <peter1138> looks like major work :(
10:43:42  <peter1138> hmm, no, can't be
10:43:54  <peter1138> because newgrfs are in tars...
10:51:19  <peter1138> hmm, wind sock animation looks too fast
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10:58:48  <planetmaker> nah, we just have strong winds
10:58:59  <planetmaker> just look how angled the smoke of the power plant is
10:59:47  <peter1138> yeah
10:59:52  <peter1138> in a different direction :D
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11:09:12  <peter1138>
11:09:15  <peter1138> hehe, if only...
11:18:38  <Noldo> let me guess, it uses random?
11:18:44  <peter1138> no
11:19:23  <peter1138> those effects are vehicles
11:19:45  <peter1138> thus they had better be synchronised between client & server
11:20:08  <planetmaker> :-)
11:20:25  * peter1138 ponders having a go at look-ahead path reservations
11:20:37  <Noldo> does that also mean they are generated all over the map?
11:20:43  <peter1138> yup
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11:21:31  <Noldo> that sounds as brilliant as the way the lift animations
11:21:43  <peter1138> lift animations are fine
11:22:00  <Noldo> they aren't in the tile loop?
11:22:06  <peter1138> they're bit hardcoded
11:23:08  <peter1138> no, they're done in the tile animation system
11:23:39  <Noldo> great
11:23:55  <peter1138> they're a bit to fast for tileloop :)
11:24:28  <Noldo> but is the state stored in the map anyway?
11:24:31  <peter1138> yes
11:24:36  <peter1138> the state has to be stored somewhere
11:25:03  <Noldo> it's not really game critical, is it?
11:25:13  <peter1138> not especially
11:25:52  <planetmaker> questionable though whether it really is essential to have them synced. Can NewGRFs read their state?
11:26:16  <peter1138> they don't need to be, no
11:26:17  <planetmaker> Or whether we could make them pure eye candy w/o gameplay effect
11:26:27  <peter1138> but you'd need to introduce a new system just for unsynchronised animations
11:26:44  <planetmaker> yes
11:26:56  <peter1138> newgrf animations *can* affect things
11:27:05  <planetmaker> also yes :-)
11:27:06  <peter1138> at least i think :)
11:27:15  <planetmaker> definitely
11:27:40  <planetmaker> they're varaction2 - accessible, thus could e.g. influence industry acceptance or production or vehicle properties
11:27:46  <peter1138> yeah
11:27:46  <SpComb> oh noes, my lifts are in different positions on different clients
11:28:12  <peter1138> it bugs me enough that the clouds in minecraft aren't synchronised
11:28:20  <peter1138> mainly because people try to use them to give directions...
11:28:30  <SpComb> heh
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11:29:16  <peter1138> "place that bus stop in front of the building with the lift at the top"
11:29:18  <peter1138> yeah
11:29:50  <planetmaker> now, giving me the idea of sync'ed / unsync'ed animation would be interesting for NewGRFs, too
11:30:05  <planetmaker> that unsynced just would need to be unexposed to variables
11:30:36  <peter1138> you could make effect vehicles unsynced too
11:30:59  <peter1138> need to move them out of the vehicle pool
11:31:27  <peter1138> originally we had 1024 vehicles allocated in the pool for effect vehicles
11:31:31  <peter1138> and they didn't need to be synced
11:33:38  <planetmaker> would make possibly sense. Could help move them in a separate thread ;-)
11:33:45  <peter1138> oh, i found my de-global fio routines
11:34:02  <peter1138> heh
11:34:13  <peter1138> if you only added effect vehicles for things on screen then there wouldn't be many
11:35:49  <planetmaker> I'm not sure... but what do sparks, fume and smoke influence?
11:37:14  <peter1138> viewports :)
11:38:43  <peter1138> hmm, r19896. quite old now.
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12:03:48  <peter1138> hmm
12:03:53  <peter1138> pbs is hard :p
12:05:40  <Yexo> <planetmaker> that unsynced just would need to be unexposed to variables <- if it's unexposed to variables the grf can't do anything with it, so you have no animation
12:05:54  <Yexo> however you could expose it only when graphics are drawn, ie cb 0
12:06:10  <Yexo> that cb is desync-safe, so you can expose it there
12:06:43  <planetmaker> I thought of a way via (adv.) action1 to supply n graphics for n animation frames. But yes, cb0 might be more interesting
12:06:50  <peter1138> tmwftlb, imho
12:08:56  <peter1138> hmm
12:09:22  <peter1138> yapp still works with out yapf, right?
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12:12:28  <Sacro> p?
12:12:30  <Sacro> pp?
12:12:36  <Sacro> patchpak?
12:13:02  <peter1138> yet another pbs patch
12:13:11  <peter1138> aka pbs in openttd
12:13:28  <Sacro> ahh
12:13:36  <Sacro> I miss HackyKid
12:16:09  <peter1138> yey
12:16:12  <peter1138> heh, even
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12:24:50  <peter1138> cool, i reserved at least 10 tiles
12:25:01  <peter1138> uncool, the signal state is red :D
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12:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> we need "yellow" signals...
12:37:10  <lugo> yellow = "limit to speed of train ahead"?
12:37:34  <peter1138> n
12:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, basically
12:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "real" signals differentiate that quite a bit, though
12:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there's different things for "next signal is red", "next signal is green, but has speed limit 40/60km/h", "next signal is green, but has speed limit 100km/h" and stuff
12:41:02  <lugo> well _that_ would be over the top :)
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12:41:26  <lugo> i mean implementing that
12:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you need feedback from the train to the signal anyway, so if the speed limit is known from the reservation, it might as well be displayed (varaction2 for signals!)
12:51:01  <peter1138> bah, having non-pbs tiles is a spanner in the works
12:51:05  <peter1138> why did we keep them? :S
12:51:12  <peter1138> tiles? signals
12:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> just treat a reserved tile like a train were on it
12:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. turn all block signals red
12:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (except the reserved one)
12:58:47  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: didn't we once have yellow signals? Or was that a patch?
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13:00:43  <peter1138> see, i'm on that "train stopping distance" thing
13:01:07  <peter1138> which "just" needs the path finder to reserve at least X tiles
13:01:16  <peter1138> instead of to the first signal
13:01:32  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, that was a patch 'advance signals'. iirc by michi
13:01:32  <peter1138> then reserved signals become green
13:01:49  <TrueBrain> I remember yellow triangles, blue circles and green rectangles or something similar?
13:01:59  <peter1138> seens simple but there are so many details
13:02:00  <planetmaker> that's different. that's route markers
13:02:09  <TrueBrain> where you could set speed limits on them?
13:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you could sort trains by max speed
13:03:10  <planetmaker> No. See for what I thought of
13:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but there also was a very old "yellow signals" patch
13:03:35  <michi_cc> peter1138: You know ?
13:03:58  <peter1138> 2009 :)
13:05:08  <TrueBrain> michi_cc is also becoming a true: "I have a patch for that" :D
13:05:16  <planetmaker> :-D
13:05:32  <planetmaker> I've yet have to recall himself saying that, though ;-)
13:06:15  <dihedral> oi
13:08:41  <peter1138>
13:08:53  <peter1138> when can we have articulated RVs doing that? :p
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13:09:02  <peter1138> without the sprite ordering glitches
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13:10:36  <TrueBrain> planetmaker:
13:10:39  <TrueBrain> that was what I meant :)
13:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause> bah... 11MB
13:11:57  <peter1138> giant animated gif, sorry
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13:12:39  <peter1138> TrueBrain, that's possible with railtypes now ;)
13:12:57  <peter1138> which does waste railtype slots, i suppose
13:12:59  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, that's really ooold ;-)
13:13:07  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I AM OLD
13:13:12  <planetmaker> true :-P
13:13:15  <TrueBrain> I only remember things from back then :P
13:13:29  <planetmaker> condolences, cookie?
13:13:42  <TrueBrain> as long as you didnt bake them
13:14:08  <planetmaker> well.... I did
13:15:04  <peter1138>
13:15:08  <peter1138> oh, the wonders of scale :p
13:15:30  <peter1138> th ebuildings aren't too bad
13:15:31  <TrueBrain> I want 2 rails on 1 tile now
13:15:36  <peter1138> but that signal?
13:15:43  <peter1138> the bus seems kinda big too
13:15:49  <TrueBrain> the signals are for the blind
13:15:53  <TrueBrain> avoids "running through red"
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13:19:18  <peter1138>
13:19:25  <peter1138> ^ locomotion looks so good? ;)
13:23:05  <planetmaker> peter1138, cets will look similar ;-)
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13:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd not look as severe, if the vehicle center followed the rail
13:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (would disconnect from other vehicles though)
13:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think CETS will be that bad
13:50:57  <planetmaker> no, cets is smaller
13:51:06  <planetmaker> as are openttd's rail sprites
13:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me, i wanted to rewrite the articulation pattern
13:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> "16k vehicles ought to be enough for anybody"?
13:58:03  <planetmaker> :-D
13:58:28  <planetmaker> good that it only reads "16k articulated vehicles shoud be enough for anybody" ;-)
14:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so how does this new articulation callback work?
14:03:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i'm thinking: each vehicle is made up of 3 parts, the first part will be (ID#+16k), the second part (ID#) and the third part (ID#+8k)
14:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that means we can have 8k vehicles
14:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and we save the magic for "dummy vehicles"
14:08:00  <planetmaker> 8k vehicles should be enough for everyone ;-)
14:08:08  <planetmaker> I'd not want to look through that purchase list ;-)
14:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> we already have like 400
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14:09:38  <planetmaker> so only a factor of 20. omg ;-)
14:13:00  <artti> Hey everyone, hope this is right place to ask a question or two. So I downloaded chill's patchpack. Should I just write into terminal patch p0 -i chillspatchpack.diff or I have to go to openttd folder or somewhere.
14:13:29  <artti> I have ubuntu
14:13:43  <Noldo> how did you get openttd in the first place?
14:14:01  <Noldo> and have you heard of compiling
14:14:03  <glx> you must be in openttd source root dir
14:17:35  <Belugas> hello
14:19:22  <artti> I'm trying to find openttd source root dir, but unsuccesfully.
14:19:47  <TinoDidriksen> How did you install OpenTTD?
14:21:37  <planetmaker> artti, did you download or checkout OpenTTD's source code?
14:21:42  <artti> Well fromSoftware center
14:21:47  <planetmaker> That does NOT come with the game you download for playing
14:21:53  <artti> from Ubuntu Software center
14:21:57  <planetmaker> Patches for OpenTTD do NOT apply to compiled software
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14:22:06  <planetmaker> e.g. not to the binary you run to play the game
14:22:26  <artti> I found finally root dir
14:22:30  <TinoDidriksen> Software Center doesn't give you the source. You need to download that separately.
14:23:39  <artti> Software center provides with 1.0.3 version, but I downloaded 1.4.something and then Software center install it.
14:24:14  <artti> so I move patch file to root dir and run code, right
14:24:16  <TinoDidriksen> Even so, a .deb generally does not give you the source.
14:24:37  <Pinkbeast> artti> Um. Do you know what "source" is, and have you ever compiled anything?
14:25:13  <TinoDidriksen> Wasn't there a wiki page for applying patches?
14:25:23  <planetmaker> you didn't download version 1.4. Trust me
14:25:55  <artti> Maybe I have complied(haven't been behind the computer for long time), I could follow the instructions easily...
14:25:58  <artti> 1.1.4 it was
14:26:11  <planetmaker> artti, may I suggest that you just use the pre-compiled binaries of chill's patchpack?
14:26:14  <Pinkbeast> Not "complied", but "compiled".
14:26:33  <artti> So I can't apply patch on already installed game. I have to download the source.
14:26:34  <planetmaker>
14:26:43  <planetmaker> yes, (of course)
14:26:51  <artti> Compiled, yes. =)
14:27:16  <artti> Already downloaded the patch
14:27:32  <TinoDidriksen> You downloaded the source patch. That link has the finished package.
14:28:10  <Pinkbeast> ... as an RPM but not a Debian package (sure, alien or whatever they use these days, but maybe not so easy all the same)
14:28:54  <artti> Confusing... I have to go to this link to download finished package?
14:29:25  <Pinkbeast> artti> You might take a look at which explains how to obtain the source and compile it on Linux.
14:29:26  <planetmaker> the link I gave gives you a working version of OpenTTD
14:29:30  <planetmaker> no further work needed
14:29:56  <planetmaker> it's not meant to patch anything, it's a complete game
14:29:56  <artti> Right... yes, I see it now, I thought it's just place for patch.
14:30:06  <artti> Great.
14:30:32  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker> perhaps I'm missing something, but in LATEST there I see only Red Hat packages.
14:31:03  <planetmaker> I could have sworn to have deleted 'LATEST'. Ignore that
14:31:08  <planetmaker> go by the creation date
14:31:34  <Pinkbeast> Ah, so artti wants
14:32:13  <Pinkbeast> ... assuming they're on an x86/amd64 system anyway. :-/
14:32:59  <artti> And now I just extract it into openttd root dir?
14:33:07  <planetmaker> there, gone, Pinkbeast ;-)
14:33:12  <planetmaker> Thx for the notification
14:33:50  <Pinkbeast> artti> It would be more clear if you stated explicitly which directory you propose to untar which files into.
14:34:00  <planetmaker> that should have builds for all OS? But yes, OpenTTD is only compiled by our CF for i386 / x64 platforms
14:34:04  <planetmaker> Irrespective of OS
14:34:05  <artti> /usr/share/games/openttd
14:34:14  <planetmaker> artti, use your home dir
14:34:30  <Pinkbeast> Er... how do you know artti's the only user?
14:34:30  <planetmaker> and create a new dir just for the chillpp
14:34:52  <Pinkbeast> And which files you propose to extract there.
14:34:57  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, I don't. But replacing the /usr/... openttd by a patchpack version... is usually not what you want
14:35:04  <planetmaker> And it will surely mess up your package management
14:35:07  <planetmaker> Thus: don't do it
14:35:29  <Pinkbeast> surely> not with appropriate use of dpkg-divert but I take your point
14:35:58  <planetmaker> with the appropriate use of the right tools you can do nearly anything ;-)
14:36:11  <planetmaker> point is "appropriate" and "having that knowledge"
14:36:55  <Pinkbeast> Anyway, yes, if artti _is_ the only user it would certainly be best to do it in their home directory
14:36:59  <Eddi|zuHause> self compiled stuff should go in /usr/local
14:37:02  <planetmaker> it's mostly a matter of keeping maintenance work to 'very low'
14:37:59  <Pinkbeast> I think you two may have mistakenly thought I said "/usr/share/games/openttd is a good idea". :-)
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14:38:53  <Pinkbeast> *blink* well, I guess it's academic now
14:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you think factor 20 is difficult if all you have to do is, say, include the rest of europe, in the table?
14:39:42  <planetmaker> no, I don't think you said that, Pinkbeast ;-). I'm just splitting hairs :-P
14:40:01  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, possibly achievable
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14:40:48  <artti> Now I didn't see what you were writing
14:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and with that i mean the standard gauge europe. france, italy, britain, hungary, yugoslavia, ...
14:41:12  <artti> Much before
14:41:33  <artti> Something with package and problems
14:42:11  <planetmaker> you missed only pedantic banter, artti ;-)
14:42:19  <artti> Anyway, seems like it's running now.
14:42:27  <planetmaker> just install the chillpp into a separate dir in your home dir and you'll be fine
14:42:29  <artti> With patch already included
14:42:33  <planetmaker> Or do other people use your machine?
14:43:09  <Pinkbeast> Good, but if you used /usr/share/games/openttd bear in mind that the package manager will likely stomp it next time the Ubuntu package is updated.
14:44:05  <artti> Nope, I'm fine keeping it in the home folder... or should I move it somewhere.
14:44:34  <Pinkbeast> If you are the only user, the home directory is a good choice.
14:44:43  <Pinkbeast> good> well... reasonable anyway
14:44:59  <artti> Thanks guys
14:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "Berlins senator of justice resigns after 12 days in office"
14:46:16  <artti> Yup, found openttd recently, seems lot of fun for me.
14:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (there were strong allegations about fishy legal advice/scams)
14:49:28  <planetmaker> oh, 12 days?
14:53:06  <TinoDidriksen> How much did the Yoggscast stream affect traffic?
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14:56:40  <artti> Hmm... opening a save game it says invalid chunk size.
14:57:01  <Pinkbeast> It's not compatible with saved games from other versions, no.
14:58:21  <planetmaker> artti, yes. Savegames between patched versions may not be compatible
14:58:46  <artti> All right... I live with that. I just make a new game then. :P
14:58:47  <planetmaker> that's an issue which should not happen with unpatched openttd versions and their savegames
14:59:38  <artti> Save game is from unpatched openttd version.
14:59:40  <MNIM> whole versions, mind you. not nightlies
15:02:07  <artti> Same game's earlier saves are working, but not later ones.
15:02:51  <artti> If I remember then I updated my 1.0.3 version to 1.1.4 and continued playing with saved game.
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15:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: see forum
15:28:51  <planetmaker> one could say double to triple
15:29:01  <planetmaker> with spike at 4x
15:36:39  <TinoDidriksen> And how many stuck around?
15:37:18  <planetmaker> what is "stuck around"?
15:37:44  <TinoDidriksen> Hm, difficult to quantify, I guess...
15:38:02  <planetmaker> we're still at twice the traffic
15:38:12  <TinoDidriksen> Aha, nice.
15:38:13  <planetmaker>
15:41:35  <__ln__>
15:43:19  <peter1138> hehe
15:45:01  <peter1138>
15:45:07  <SpComb> tea
15:45:12  <peter1138> DO IT
15:45:18  <SpComb> oh
15:45:58  <peter1138> might give a different result for different locations i suppose
15:46:12  <SpComb> no, it gives the right result :)
15:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> from the results page i see, i'd say "it works" :p
15:46:23  <planetmaker> I see
15:46:42  <planetmaker> but is it safe for work? :-P
15:47:11  <peter1138> well... it's google :p
15:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> if shakespeare is safe for work, then this is as well :p
15:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:51:17  <peter1138> hmm, wonder if my stats are back to normal
15:51:33  <peter1138> hmm no
15:51:44  <peter1138> as pm said, about double
15:51:51  <peter1138> not like the huge spike though :p
15:55:36  <peter1138> oh crap, i forgot to pause my game :S
15:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that rarely happens to me
15:56:11  <peter1138> oh crap, i just reverted the wrong checkout
15:56:52  <peter1138> just lost my fileslot changes :(
15:57:15  <peter1138> oh well, probably wasn't useful
16:02:30  <peter1138> hmm
16:02:33  <peter1138> pause_on_idle :p
16:04:07  <TrueBrain> NoGo 0.3 is being compiled :D Has some nice new features ... now I need someone to test them ... :D:D :)
16:04:13  <peter1138> commit!!
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16:14:11  <peter1138> TaI is nice. pikka should finish it
16:17:45  <peter1138> god damn, i keep playing as if i have CD available
16:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> commit!!
16:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
16:21:25  <peter1138> is CETS set up for the new shorter wagon offsets yet?
16:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> nope
16:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe in a day or two
16:23:27  <peter1138> are long vehicles drawn as parts or just one sprite?
16:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause> as parts, if they are all in a straight line, as one otherwise
16:24:34  <peter1138> oops, forgot about YAIM
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16:24:49  <peter1138> ah
16:25:09  <peter1138> cos getting alignment right around bends is a pita
16:25:24  <peter1138> £88,728/yr
16:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i need some kind of callback for that
16:25:31  <peter1138> maybe i should not have doubletracked that...
16:25:51  <planetmaker> peter1138, TAI has IMHO one big flaw: it limits town radius actively
16:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it's near impossible to work around the glitches around slopes and bridges
16:26:00  <peter1138> planetmaker, does it?
16:26:03  <planetmaker> Thus a town will - from a certain point onwards - only build stupid roads
16:26:12  <peter1138> hmm
16:26:18  <planetmaker> thus you get a road grid surrounding every town. Looks ugly
16:26:23  <planetmaker> Otherwise: very nice
16:26:34  <planetmaker> at least that was my last experience with it :-)
16:26:34  <peter1138> well it is a beta
16:26:39  <Hawson> planetmaker: could you have a conditional?
16:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRF town control!!
16:27:03  * planetmaker can have a condition :-P But wonders about the context
16:27:10  <Eddi|zuHause> this part of TaI is probably better ported to GS
16:27:14  <Hawson> if (townPop > biglimit) { use_growth_big()}  else { use_growht_small() }
16:27:29  <peter1138> operating profit: £-18000 :(
16:27:34  <planetmaker> Hawson, not really. The town decides to grow. Then the house set has to supply what shall grow
16:27:43  <planetmaker> if it doesn't supply a house, a road is built
16:27:46  <planetmaker> That's what is to it
16:28:00  <planetmaker> And that's why denying all houses being built IMHO is the wrong approach
16:28:09  <planetmaker> to limit towns. Indeed the better approach here is via GS
16:28:31  <peter1138> oh, my airports are the killer
16:28:47  <peter1138> oh well, i'll get rid of them
16:28:57  <peter1138> can't afford that kinda cost :)
16:29:33  <peter1138> oh
16:29:39  <peter1138> i don't have enough money to remove them :(
16:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
16:30:05  <Hawson> Oooh....evil thought:
16:30:18  <Hawson> if a town hates you claims stuff via eminent domain.
16:30:32  <peter1138> removing them should put me into a money making position
16:30:51  <peter1138> would've helped if i'd remember to build up the other end of the airport link
16:31:02  <peter1138> £4,600/yr
16:31:11  <peter1138> instead of £88,000/yr
16:31:12  <peter1138> yes
16:34:58  <peter1138> hmm, road pieces cost money to maintain now
16:35:09  <peter1138> so maybe i won't randomly build pieces, heh
16:35:36  <peter1138> hrmm, still not making enough, heh
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16:36:43  <swissfan91> evenin'
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16:40:39  <peter1138> who put these rivers in the game?
16:40:45  <peter1138> they're annoying, i have to bridge them :p
16:40:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that'll need some getting used to... not trying to fix the town roads
16:40:59  <peter1138> yeah
16:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we need a GS that fixes them
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17:37:31  <swissfan91> how many snow transitions can a building handle? 4?
17:38:41  <TrueBrain> over 9000?
17:39:21  <V453000> 8999 :p
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17:41:10  <swissfan91> as in... the transition from having no snow, to full snow.
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17:43:04  <swissfan91> i think planetmaker told me it was 4
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17:53:34  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, technically 253 as the height variable is limited to that distinction... though of course one could introduce a gradient on flat terrain, too ;-)
17:54:04  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: you shouldn't ask me :) Or you completely missed the joke :)
17:54:06  <TrueBrain> like by miles :)
17:54:10  <TrueBrain> ask = tell
17:54:12  <planetmaker> I didn't :-P
17:54:37  <planetmaker> I just wanted to nitpick on the wrong path :-P
17:55:22  <planetmaker> I guess we have a limit somewhere with the sprite limit... not sure though where that actually might be... hm
17:55:37  <planetmaker> action2 IDs?
17:57:27  <planetmaker> in any case there's 4 snowy states + no snow
18:00:07  <swissfan91> I see. so 5 sprites of the same building, plus two construction stages is it?
18:01:23  <planetmaker> times. And however many construction stages you want. You can go from 1 (only finished) to 4 (3 building in progress, 1 finished)
18:01:36  <planetmaker> your choice on how many you use
18:02:00  <planetmaker> But having at least one construction stage is nice imho
18:02:31  <planetmaker> and indeed the snow state need not necessarily be reflected on the building being built (though imho should on the ground also for constructio nstages)
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18:11:34  <frosch123> hmm, ottd settings are so screwed up...
18:13:24  <frosch123> i would like to change the title of "advanced settings" window into "advanced settings for new games" resp. "advanced settings for current game". then i notices i should do the same for difficulty settings and game options. except that in game options only a few settings affect the current game, while the rest is not game specific :p
18:14:40  <frosch123> looks like "currency", "drive side" and "town names" need to be moved
18:14:50  <frosch123> the latter 2 would fit into map generation
18:14:57  <frosch123> no idea where to put "currency" :p
18:15:54  <michi_cc> Maybe we need to dust of again :) (The different panes, not the NewGRF GUI).
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18:16:36  <frosch123> but that's not the five minute patch i was heading for :p
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18:26:48  <planetmaker> :-)
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18:27:16  <planetmaker> We need three things, probably: game options, user settings and (newgame) settings
18:27:28  <planetmaker> though I'm not sure about the distinction of game options and user settings
18:29:22  <Yexo> there is also a 3rd category: company settings
18:29:38  <Yexo> those affect a new company in a MP game, but they are stored in the savegame
18:30:11  <Yexo> 1) Settings that are stored in a savegame (including advanced settings, newgrf settings, AI settings and difficulty settings)
18:30:36  <Yexo> 2) GUI settings (most of game options, all client-only advanced settings)
18:30:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23499 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/masterserver/ (handler.cpp masterserver.h udp.cpp):
18:30:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [MSU] -Feature: send multiple packets, instead of limiting the amount of servers returned
18:30:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [MSU] -Change: reduce the MTU so packets are getting through to those that are cut off from proper internet
18:31:14  <Yexo> 3) Company settings (those affect a new company, but they are stored in the savegame). This doesn't fit in well with either 1) or 2)
18:31:15  <planetmaker> good point, Yexo
18:31:27  <planetmaker> thus:
18:31:30  <Yexo> I think 1) needs to be moved to the newgame window
18:31:35  <planetmaker> 1) User (UI) settings
18:31:42  <planetmaker> 2) per-company settings
18:31:49  <planetmaker> 3) per-game settings
18:32:13  <planetmaker> yes, I agree. Everything only affecting new games should be behind the "new game" button
18:32:21  <planetmaker> especially newgrfs and AI
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18:42:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23500 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
18:42:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:42:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 24 changes by Wowanxm
18:42:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 65 changes by ReisRyos
18:42:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: estonian - 16 changes by runekri3
18:42:24  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
18:42:24  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by NG
18:51:33  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23501 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: loading scenarios downloaded from the online content didn't work anymore
18:52:29  <Xaroth> planetmaker: and game scripts
18:52:30  <Xaroth> :P
18:53:55  <planetmaker> :-)
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18:55:44  <Xaroth> but with what michi showed, would be useful to integrate newgrf/gs into that same UI
18:56:04  <Xaroth> instead of having 5 settings windows for 5 areas, 1 with 5 tabs is more easy to navigate to
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19:00:37  <Wolf01> evenink
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19:12:13  <planetmaker> Xaroth: no doubt, yes
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19:13:03  <planetmaker> Xaroth: my idea is to add the other tabs similarily
19:13:35  <planetmaker> but... looong way and not too high on my too full list of things to do
19:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't that long ago that our settings window was changed from tabs to tree :)
19:16:06  <planetmaker> I know :-)
19:16:33  <planetmaker> I'd keep the settings as tree
19:17:10  <planetmaker> actually a start might be to link the different 'settings' (adv. settings, difficulty, newgrf, ai at least) from the new game window
19:17:15  <planetmaker> and work on from there
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19:17:24  <Xaroth> yeh
19:17:30  <Xaroth> but the tree works, but only so far
19:17:32  <Xaroth> atm the tree is too big
19:17:38  <Xaroth> and no clear boundries exist
19:17:43  <Xaroth> making it hard to find certain settings
19:17:52  <planetmaker> you can minimize it to less than a dozen entries ;-)
19:18:18  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe a start to splitting the settings into basic/advanced/expert is to put them in different levels of the tree
19:18:24  <andythenorth> efening
19:18:35  <planetmaker> and many options have no clear affiliation to one or the other category
19:18:40  <andythenorth> make it user configurable
19:18:43  <andythenorth> and in squirrel
19:18:45  <andythenorth> with xml
19:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't need any architectural changes
19:18:50  <andythenorth> [whatever it is]
19:21:03  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: imho that doesn't solve the issue really. It's cosmetic on the symptoms
19:21:22  <planetmaker> might even make it worse to find a setting
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19:23:43  <andythenorth> can a newgrf detect which base set is in use and change graphics appropriately?
19:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no
19:24:26  <andythenorth> why not?
19:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and never ever will
19:24:35  <andythenorth> besides the obvious MP explosion potential with varact2
19:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the exact reason
19:24:53  <andythenorth> hmm
19:25:07  <andythenorth> so I have to provide a parameter to switch graphics :(
19:25:13  <andythenorth> or spam the station building menu
19:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> won't help with multiplayer either
19:25:58  <andythenorth> meh
19:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if of 5 players 2 have original and 3 have opengfx
19:26:57  <RetiredNavyVet> sorry, but whats varact2?
19:27:06  * andythenorth applies for official 'victim' status
19:27:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23502 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix (r23143): Vehicle var 42 used a cargo translation table of the wrong GRF.
19:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> either your sprites must be generic enough to fit both, or you need to reference the baseset sprites
19:28:21  <Terkhen> hello
19:28:24  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23503 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix (r23143): Desync debug wants to resolve vehicle variables of vehicles without NewGRF. So, let it.
19:28:29  <andythenorth> there's some reason (I forget) why stations can't use base tiles
19:28:34  <andythenorth> it's railtype related
19:28:39  <andythenorth> or I am telling lies
19:29:19  <planetmaker> they can afaik
19:29:25  <planetmaker> or?
19:29:47  <RetiredNavyVet> nice work in OpenGFX+ pm..thanks for the tip!
19:29:56  * andythenorth should specify the case more precisely
19:30:03  <andythenorth> I don't know why I care tbh
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19:41:01  <planetmaker> :-) thx, RetiredNavyVet.
19:41:16  <planetmaker> thouch I only did some coding parts
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20:03:52  <andythenorth> hmm
20:04:02  <andythenorth> I could action A the base set sprite
20:04:32  <andythenorth> replacing it to match CHIPS, rather than vice-versa
20:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> how crazy
20:06:02  <andythenorth> you think? :P
20:06:09  <andythenorth> it's become a minor obsession
20:06:14  <andythenorth> pointlessly
20:06:21  <andythenorth> like playing solitaire or such
20:06:38  <frosch123> station tiles with track should use the default railsprite as first ground sprite
20:06:46  *** mahmoud [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:06:52  <frosch123> so that railtype grfs can draw the proper overlay
20:07:01  <frosch123> non-track station tiles can draw whatever they want
20:07:14  <frosch123> and of course you can draw additional groundsprites on top
20:09:12  <andythenorth> I don't even think this is a valid issue to solve
20:10:06  <andythenorth> I'm just being strange and obsessive
20:12:56  * andythenorth doesn't like it when there's no right answer
20:13:24  <frosch123> oh, i think there is a right answer in many cases; just that you do not like it :p
20:13:53  <andythenorth> what's the right answer in this case?
20:14:23  <frosch123> i do not know the question
20:14:37  <frosch123> so i try 42
20:14:54  <andythenorth> make CHIPS 'mud' stations match both OpenGFX and original sprites, in MP safe way
20:15:10  <frosch123> is there some screenshot?
20:15:42  <andythenorth> no
20:15:42  <andythenorth>
20:15:51  <andythenorth> there is a right answer
20:15:53  <andythenorth> remove them
20:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: take the baseset grass as base tile, and the mud as partially transparent sprite?
20:16:30  <andythenorth> which mud though?
20:16:42  <andythenorth> original TTD mud, or OpenGFX mud?
20:17:41  <frosch123> the mud station i just build does not seem to be very baseset specific
20:17:59  <andythenorth> I suspect that removing *is* the correct solution to this problem, conceptually
20:18:08  <andythenorth> practically, it's not very desirable
20:19:06  <frosch123> i see no problem with the current mud station... so i do not get the question
20:19:24  <andythenorth> are you using opengfx?
20:19:29  <frosch123> yes
20:19:34  <frosch123> tried both
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20:21:39  <andythenorth> hmm
20:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> is there an nml constant for "end articulation callback"?
20:21:44  <andythenorth> concrete tiles have the same issue
20:22:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "it was forgotten" was the result of a recent discussion
20:23:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: chips mud looks neither like opengfx mud nor like original mud
20:23:16  <frosch123> so what's the problem?
20:23:18  <frosch123> it fits with both
20:23:58  <andythenorth> the problem is that I am obsessive :P
20:24:39  <andythenorth> but yes - it doesn't match original mud tile(s) either
20:24:51  <andythenorth> it was supposed to, but I guess I screwed up :)
20:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> why is that necessary?
20:25:58  <andythenorth> matching to original mud?
20:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:26:21  <andythenorth> CHIPS is designed to fit seamlessly with FIRS
20:26:33  <andythenorth> when I play FIRS, it uses original mud tile (the one with wheel tracks)
20:26:37  <andythenorth> for many industries
20:27:30  <andythenorth> I'd file it under 'does this really matter?' though
20:27:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: well, if you want to use the same mud as the basetile, then draw the mud the same way as the basetiles do
20:28:02  <frosch123> note that railtiles get their mud via recolouring, not via different sprites
20:28:19  <frosch123> (though i am not sure that railtypes properly handle that, but they might/should)
20:28:59  <frosch123> so, draw the default rail ground tile, but recoloured with sprite 0x317
20:29:07  <andythenorth> that is intriguing
20:29:32  <andythenorth> didn't think of that route
20:30:23  <andythenorth> so this silly discussion led to something productive :)
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20:37:47  <RetiredNavyVet> see Mom!?! games are productive!!!
20:39:13  <planetmaker> that's indeed a very interesting approach, frosch123 :-)
20:39:30  <frosch123> not my idea :p
20:40:13  <frosch123> but of course all of you should study ttdviewer more closely :p
20:41:28  <planetmaker> :-P
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20:56:37  * andythenorth has nothing left to do but play the game
20:56:39  <andythenorth> :o
20:57:21  <frosch123> what game? open trucky truck deluxe?
20:57:57  <andythenorth> open tram tycoon deluxe
20:58:01  <andythenorth> no trucks in 1894 :P
20:58:04  <andythenorth> no good ones anyway
20:59:07  <planetmaker> maybe it's time again for an open toy tycoon deluxe...
20:59:20  * andythenorth tries FIRS
20:59:26  <andythenorth> apparently it's nearly done :P
21:00:19  <planetmaker> or open toy tycoon diaper?
21:09:32  <V453000> open trucky truck deluxe :DD
21:10:06  <frosch123> do not blame me for that :)
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21:21:13  <andythenorth> that would be more like open trucky truck (pick subtypes to refit the number of trailers needed) deluxe
21:23:20  <andythenorth> hmm
21:23:27  <andythenorth> why is there nowhere to take milk in FIRS?
21:24:36  <frosch123> what kind of milk? liquid or piece goods? :p
21:25:48  <V453000> or alcoholic milk?
21:26:04  <andythenorth> frosch123: I've no idea :P
21:26:09  <andythenorth> did Eddi|zuHause fix the spec yet?
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21:50:17  <frosch123> night
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21:56:13  <Terkhen> good night
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22:05:30  <Markk>
22:05:40  <Markk> My four towns are growing a bit too big now.
22:10:26  <peter1138> heh
22:14:48  <Cahata> hello ai want to ask is openttd works only with ttd or maybe also with tt ?
22:17:48  <Zuu> It works without TTD or TT
22:18:09  <Zuu> You can use the TTD graphics if you have access to the CD, but it is not neccessary.
22:19:20  <Cahata> it can use tt graphic not ttd ?
22:19:24  <appe> Markk: neat.
22:19:39  <Markk> appe: :)
22:19:45  <Zuu> Cahata: I don't think the TT graphics will work.
22:20:28  <Zuu> Just get the installer (or apt-get install openttd) and you should get started with the free/open graphics.
22:20:52  <Cahata> thanks
22:21:00  <Cahata> great game :)
22:21:18  <Zuu> There are several people who prefere them over the original graphics. Others prefere to use the old graphics.
22:22:15  <Markk> I prefer the original one.
22:22:42  <Zuu> I like OpenGFX better
22:26:49  <planetmaker> TT graphics won't work, only TTD and OpenGFX; the installers can only install OpenGFX.
22:28:00  <Cahata> that sad tt more sexy
22:28:13  <Cahata> ttd have some not very relistic stuff
22:28:37  <Cahata> of cource i mean tt winh no moon graphic pach
22:29:04  <Cahata> tt is superior stategic game icream graphic not very make its fun
22:29:27  <Cahata> thats only my opinion but i believe so ...
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22:42:18  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:23:06  <planetmaker> g'night
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