Log for #openttd on 16th December 2011:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:28  <TrueBrain> you know what should scare you? :D
00:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> GUI _always_ scares me...
00:10:02  <fjb|tab> OpenGL scares me.
00:11:54  <TrueBrain> a mirror scares me
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00:17:02  <fjb|tab> Did you fall down one of your climbing walls? :-)
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00:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> is that just my impression or did cets compile time increase even more?
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07:57:38  <planetmaker> moin
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08:15:47  <dihedral> oi
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09:27:05  * peter1138 greebles dihedral
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10:17:41  <fjb|tab> Moin
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10:45:25  <dihedral> "A greeble or nurnie is a small piece of detailing added to break up the surface of an object"
10:45:32  <dihedral> ok peter1138 if that makes you feel better ....
10:47:11  <peter1138> 2cc bug:
10:47:28  <peter1138>    allowed cargo classes 0000000000000001
10:47:36  <peter1138> disallowed cargo classes 1111111111111011
10:47:52  <peter1138> = pax disappearing
10:47:59  <peter1138> i'll post it in their thread :p
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11:21:19  <fjb|tab> That is the automatic pax reduction feature.
11:26:54  *** kkmic [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
11:27:22  <peter1138> :)
11:32:45  <Alberth> kkmic: hai, wouldn't a new WT be great, for all NewGRFs ?
11:33:21  <planetmaker> it would :-)
11:33:30  <kkmic> I don't have knowledge about the inner workings of the translator and the newgrf system
11:33:50  <kkmic> what would be needed in the next version?
11:34:22  <planetmaker> well. The important constraints for the translator is to produce language files of OpenTTD. To offer new strings for translations as is done now. To make change history visible
11:34:38  <planetmaker> To search in the strings to make it easier to ensure some consistency for translations
11:35:11  <planetmaker> i.e. search for 'height level' and see how it was translated in other strings
11:35:16  <kkmic> and keep a version history of each string?
11:35:30  <planetmaker> yes, that's done currently.
11:35:42  <Alberth> in a version control system mostly
11:35:49  <planetmaker> but that's also done in the svn, of course or could be extracted there. Not sure whether it's (also) in a translation DB
11:35:57  <kkmic> I haven't seen it from my end.. I'm just a translator :)
11:36:42  <planetmaker> Improvement over current system... <-- look for bugs related to WT3
11:37:13  <planetmaker> of course the system must also validate all strings against correct syntax (e.g. case, gender, parameters)
11:37:19  <kkmic> No, I was asking if the WT keps an independent version history for each string... sometime older versions contains hints and such
11:37:26  <planetmaker> I don't know
11:37:37  <planetmaker> but it can always get that from svn history
11:37:52  <planetmaker> if it doesn't do its own accounting. Might even be better.
11:39:28  <kkmic> Should be in it's own database. It's faster. And it does not interfere with is being committed
11:39:43  <kkmic> *with what is being commited
11:40:40  <Alberth> TrueBrain had the idea to base everything on a REST architecture
11:41:13  <Alberth> so you can have clients downloading data, and uploading changes
11:42:00  <Alberth> if you add newgrf support, you are going to have a lot of entities with translations in several languages
11:42:50  <planetmaker> kkmic: it will need updating itself then with the svn
11:43:05  <planetmaker> the svn is the authorative instance - and the svn can change stuff
11:43:17  <planetmaker> in principle in every language.
11:44:22  <Alberth> to give you an idea of the projects side:  is the master file
11:44:26  <planetmaker> kkmic: what would be a good addition is a "discussion" type of thing related to single strings
11:45:11  <Alberth> it relates names (at the left) with text (at the right).   The translations are all in the same directory (or in lang/unfinished)
11:46:10  <Alberth> newgrf do something similar but at a smaller scale, eg FIRS:
11:54:46  <planetmaker> newgrfs have the additional difficulty: you'd need to store strings by version
11:55:39  <kkmic> Yeah, a discussion/comments would be a good addition
11:56:07  <kkmic> I think this could be easily added to the current architecture
11:57:07  <planetmaker> Maybe.
11:57:49  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: what difficulties would be involved to get a "clone" of the WT3 machine into another VM for testing changes to a WT?
11:58:10  <kkmic> How does the current WT gets the strings list?
11:58:16  <planetmaker> from the svn
11:58:19  <planetmaker> I assume
11:58:24  <kkmic> Directly from the SVN? Is the process automatic?
11:58:44  <Alberth> part of a post-commit hook would be my guess
11:59:27  <kkmic> Also, does it keep an internal copy of the data? Or everything is based on updates/commits to the svn? From the changelog, I guess it's the former
12:00:54  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, first off, we are out of RAM atm :p So that is a huge difficulty :) And I have no clue what you mean with: "for testing changes to a WT". Which 'a' you refer to?
12:01:10  <Alberth> it builds a new text-file for every language afaik, which gets pushed to subversion (who then makes a diff)
12:02:25  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: my idea is to offer a clone of the current way WT works on another VM which does not commit to svn. But which allows to test stuff
12:02:42  <planetmaker> and which allows then interested parties to try their ideas of what would work
12:02:47  <TrueBrain> WT3.0 should not be developed on, so that would be a bad idea
12:02:52  <planetmaker> It must not be on our machine
12:03:07  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you say that. But let people find out that themselves.
12:03:26  <planetmaker> And see how it works. On a live system (just w/o feedback to svn)
12:03:47  <TrueBrain> I have no interest 'wasting' my time in that, sorry :)
12:03:53  <planetmaker> ...
12:03:54  <TrueBrain> Making a clone alone would take me several hours
12:04:01  <TrueBrain> only for them to find out the code is unreadable
12:04:06  <TrueBrain> we have had this talk before, didn't we? :)
12:04:12  <planetmaker> no
12:04:23  <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure we did :D But that is not important :)
12:04:37  <Alberth> it is somewhere publically available?
12:04:41  <TrueBrain> Alberth: no
12:04:54  <planetmaker> that's the point. It's not documented anywhere how it interfaces, can interface and all this shit
12:05:01  <planetmaker> Thus the system itself is the only documentation
12:05:26  <planetmaker> And thus no-one can reasonably work or think about it anyway, except you and maybe Rubi who know the system architecture and interfaces in detail
12:05:31  <TrueBrain> well, I once had a subversion with WT3.1 in it, which has all the info
12:05:38  <TrueBrain> but that domain expired, well, got redirected
12:05:49  <TrueBrain> and I have no idea where the fuck I left the subversion :P
12:06:05  <peter1138> heh
12:06:08  <planetmaker> And thus the idea: get a clone. It has the necessary interfaces. Which then new stuff can used to get starting
12:06:14  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: it is unreasnoable to think that the WT3.0 source would give any insight :)
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12:06:38  <planetmaker> I find it actually quite sad that you block *every* attempt by saying that wt3 is a dead end and won't even have anyone look at it
12:07:02  <planetmaker> and I'd leave the decision whether it's fruitful to interested people
12:07:07  <kkmic_> Internet failure. What did I missed?
12:07:13  <planetmaker> @logs
12:07:13  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
12:07:43  <kkmic_> thanks
12:07:46  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: the main issue is, that the interfaces are not clear. And they're in that WM
12:07:53  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: we really had this discussion before :D
12:08:24  <planetmaker> yes, and you kill every attempt by denying even a look at the current state :-(
12:08:26  <TrueBrain> and you know what the funny part is planetmaker? You never asked if I have documentation about WT, or if I can help out developing
12:08:27  <Alberth> can we not agree on some interface?
12:08:31  <TrueBrain> you keep blaming me I am blocking something
12:08:34  <TrueBrain> yet you never ask if I want to help?
12:09:21  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you wanting to help or not is not the issue or question. I've no idea whether you want it or not.
12:09:21  <TrueBrain> and you know too planetmaker, you have no clue how the code is, looks like, how it is installed, and what is requires. So it is a bit odd you make all these assumptions on it
12:09:23  <TrueBrain> without asking
12:09:27  <planetmaker> Rcently you keep saying you have no time
12:09:36  <kkmic_> TrueBrain: is the current WT based on any public framework? Or is everything built "in house"?
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12:09:46  <TrueBrain> kkmic_: written from scratch
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12:09:59  <Alberth> TrueBrain: what is the best way for kkmic to start?
12:10:11  <TrueBrain> Alberth: heavily depends on his abilities tbh
12:10:16  <TrueBrain> best would to make a design document first
12:10:23  <TrueBrain> collect what is needed for this new WT
12:10:28  <TrueBrain> what the demands are, constraints
12:10:32  <Alberth> goals
12:10:36  <kkmic> I need documentation regarding the interface with other systems
12:10:41  <TrueBrain> I did that for WT3.0, and it was really useful
12:10:58  <TrueBrain> of course you cannot implement everythng, but at least you can get a general idea and aim
12:11:13  <Alberth> kkmic: interfacing is not the big issue imho, you are communicating with text files, or patches
12:11:23  <kkmic> And we need to clearly establish the goals of the WT
12:11:42  <TrueBrain> there is a lot of documentation, bug reports, developers-documents about what a new WT should do
12:11:44  <Alberth> kkmic: that would be the first thing in the document imho :)
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12:11:49  <TrueBrain> spread out atm, which is a bitch
12:11:59  <kkmic> Maybe, but why reinvent the wheel when I can use something that already works?
12:12:08  <TrueBrain>
12:12:14  <TrueBrain> very old document
12:12:28  <TrueBrain> kkmic: there is nothing atm that 'works'
12:12:42  <TrueBrain> WT3.0 is build wrong, sadly enough, and hooks into OpenTTD in ways that are not practicle
12:12:53  <Alberth> kkmic: im general TrueBrain knows what he is saying, so believe him when he says it is not readable :)
12:12:58  <kkmic> I had the impression that WT works for what i was intended to do
12:13:00  <TrueBrain> I have a framework for WT3.1, but I have no clue where the source is
12:13:19  <TrueBrain> also, ther eI noticed huge issues with svn and Python
12:13:26  <TrueBrain> but I believe there is a newer module which solves those issues
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12:17:11  <TrueBrain> dihedral: do you have any clue where noaddedsuger pointed to? :P
12:19:19  <TrueBrain> lol; forgot I once wrote a CoucheDB version
12:19:22  <TrueBrain> that was fun :D
12:19:56  <TrueBrain> RoR version ...
12:22:08  <dihedral> TrueBrain, you mean wt3? ;-)
12:22:13  <dihedral> yep i know that
12:22:14  <TrueBrain> wt3.1, yes :)
12:22:18  <TrueBrain> you have an IP?
12:22:30  <dihedral> an? IP?
12:22:37  <dihedral> or the IP :-P
12:22:42  <TrueBrain> an IP it pointed to :P
12:22:54  <TrueBrain> I have no clue on which VPS I instaleld it :P
12:23:16  <dihedral> dig :-p
12:23:31  <TrueBrain> no, you changed it a few months (years?) ago back to yourself remember?
12:23:41  <kkmic> Hmm... in what language is WT written?
12:23:45  <TrueBrain> Python
12:23:53  <dihedral> and 2001:1af8:4100:a000:1::21
12:24:02  <dihedral> i was thinking about it, but i never did
12:24:19  <TrueBrain> ah, lol :D
12:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody has a clue about a program that can repair video files if the header is missing?
12:24:24  <TrueBrain> and those IPs expired long ago :P
12:24:36  <dihedral> hehehe
12:24:44  <TrueBrain> but tnx dihedral
12:24:48  <dihedral> yeah - with the end of at leaseweb
12:24:48  <kkmic> Well, since I only know PHP....
12:25:04  <TrueBrain> ah; I did install it on the LW machine
12:25:06  <TrueBrain> hmm
12:26:41  <TrueBrain> dihedral: found it :D:D
12:26:59  <dihedral> congrats
12:27:07  <dihedral> you know - you could host it over at
12:27:31  <planetmaker> that's what I wanted to suggest.
12:27:31  <TrueBrain> last changed: Jul 2009
12:27:41  <TrueBrain> it is one of my (many) failed attempts :P
12:27:43  <dihedral> i beat you to it, planetmaker ;-)
12:27:44  <kkmic> So, the question arises: Ho can I lend a hand if WT is built using Python and I can program in PHP?
12:27:54  <Alberth> build a new WT imho
12:28:00  <planetmaker> Playground. Experimenting ground. If something comes from it: wonderful. If not...
12:28:03  <planetmaker> so be it
12:28:16  <Alberth> and/or learn Python :)
12:28:21  <Alberth> it's a fun language :)
12:28:27  <dihedral> learn python - if you know php, you know you can learn programming languages, do not be scared of python
12:28:53  <planetmaker> whatever. I'll be happy to provide the infrastructure on the devzone
12:28:58  * dihedral should start the nightly server again :-P
12:29:00  <TrueBrain> I would advise against a WT in PHP; we have had that, the performance was rubbish :D (but it is just that: advise)
12:29:09  <kkmic> Anything can be made given enough time and resources. But then again I come to the reinvent the wheel question
12:29:47  <Alberth> kkmic: we have come to the conclusion that the current wheel will not fit in the car of tomorrow
12:30:06  <kkmic> TrueBrain: You mean the WT before the current version? Or was it another?
12:30:23  <planetmaker> we have WT3. There was a WT2
12:30:26  <TrueBrain> ugh, some basic background
12:30:30  <TrueBrain> we have had many WTs over the years
12:30:34  <TrueBrain> most noticable: WT2
12:30:45  <TrueBrain> written in PHP by MiHaMiX
12:30:49  <TrueBrain> worked for .. I think a year or 2, 3
12:30:52  <TrueBrain> did a great job
12:30:56  <TrueBrain> for that time even more
12:31:07  <TrueBrain> but there were some issues; style-wise it was a bit poor, and performance was bad
12:31:23  <TrueBrain> so I wrote WT3, based on Django (Python), to work inside our current website (also Django)
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12:31:38  <TrueBrain> worked well till about a year ago I think? Then NML came and needed translation too
12:31:43  <TrueBrain> soon we have GS that needs translation too
12:31:53  <TrueBrain> and there is one huge bug in cases in WT3, which I cannot solve :(
12:32:06  <TrueBrain> The interface too is getting obsolete, and is in need for modern webtechniques
12:32:28  <TrueBrain> for example, WT3 was originally not written to work with UTF-8
12:32:33  <TrueBrain> to just name one of the sillyness :)
12:32:47  <TrueBrain> so since .. begin 2009, I have been trying to rewrite WT3, called WT3.1
12:32:52  <TrueBrain> in a way that it would work
12:33:04  <TrueBrain> sadly, I always been alone in programming it, and because of that it never finished
12:33:25  <dihedral> *sniff*
12:33:27  <TrueBrain> I have had one that was most promising, but Python+svn fucked me over, and I dropped it like a stone :)
12:33:32  <kkmic> The interface, as it is, works pretty well for me.
12:33:42  <TrueBrain> it works, sure; but it is old
12:33:45  <TrueBrain> believe 2007?
12:33:52  <TrueBrain> there are better, more modern ways to do things
12:33:55  <dihedral> younger
12:33:56  <TrueBrain> for example: jquery
12:33:58  <dihedral> 08 i believe
12:34:13  <TrueBrain> tomato tomato
12:34:15  <kkmic> Yeah, it's old. Maybe. But is it worth to change it? I really think it's good as it is
12:34:16  <dihedral> 07 was the time of ... _Karin
12:34:25  <dihedral> or was that 08 too
12:34:27  <TrueBrain> hehe @ dihedral :D
12:34:40  <TrueBrain> kkmic: well, I think a good use-case test would show you many improvements :)
12:34:58  <TrueBrain> history is rather annoying, walking through strings feels old and sluggish
12:35:03  <TrueBrain> my personal list is rather large :D
12:35:10  <kkmic> I'm not talking about the technology used, I'm talking about the usability standpoint
12:35:11  <TrueBrain> basic concept is good, but a lot of details that need changing
12:35:13  <dihedral> improving, yes - rewrite? would it really need that?
12:35:42  <kkmic> dihedral: I agree with you
12:35:44  <TrueBrain> I was not talkinga bout the code either :) Just from a use-case point of view
12:36:09  <TrueBrain> mostly what I always wanted, is some way to display 'hints'
12:36:09  <dihedral> and what is the problem with cases, TrueBrain
12:36:17  <TrueBrain> to keep translations consistent
12:36:24  <TrueBrain> dihedral: don't use them :D:D:D
12:36:49  <TrueBrain> once a blue monday WT3 barks again, because someone added a case and removed it in some order
12:36:56  <TrueBrain> then I have to manually reset WT again ...
12:37:06  <TrueBrain> the things you don't see as normal user :P
12:37:07  <dihedral> ouch
12:37:46  <TrueBrain> dihedral: mind changing noaddedsugar to ... for a few days?
12:37:57  <TrueBrain> then I can boot this VPS I hope ..... not sure tbh :P
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12:40:37  <kkmic> Well, it the next WT won't be using PHP I am of only minimal help I'm afraid. I could give you a rundown of what I would like to see in the next WT and what worked and not worked for me in the current version
12:42:15  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, limiting yourself to "i can only program <one language>" is silly
12:42:22  <dihedral> TrueBrain, need IPv6 too?
12:42:34  <TrueBrain> dihedral: no tnx
12:42:45  <Eddi|zuHause> almost all programming languages are sufficiently similar that they can easily be learned if you already know one
12:42:58  <TrueBrain> well, Python is a bit of an exception there, but yeah .. both imperative languages :)
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12:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> especially python is one of the easiest languages to learn-as-you-go-along
12:44:25  <Alberth> kkmic: it is common to see problems as an opportunity to learn something new :p
12:44:32  <Alberth> +here
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12:45:46  <dihedral> TrueBrain, done ;-)
12:46:00  <TrueBrain> how long is your TTL? :)
12:46:27  <TrueBrain> anyway: <- when / if the URL works, there is a lot of documentation and an initial framework for WT3.1 there
12:47:15  <kkmic> Alberth: True, unfortunately learning requires free time, which is something that my current RL does not allow me too much to be able to learn a new language AND do something tangible with it in a reasonable amount of time
12:47:45  <dihedral> 3600
12:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> if your "RL" prevents you from learning, then you have the wrong job...
12:48:12  <dihedral> you might want to touch the nginx config? :-P
12:48:14  <Alberth> kkmic: we are in no hurry, otherwise someone would have written a new version already
12:48:30  <TrueBrain> dihedral: why? That exact URL works :P
12:48:39  <Xaroth> the url works for me :o
12:48:48  <dihedral> just without www. ;-)
12:49:07  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: and just a FYI, if you would had just asked if I had documentation about how a new WT would need to be designed, the same would have happened, without you accusing me of 'blocking' *every* attempt ....
12:49:12  <Xaroth> kkmic: then helping out with something huge like WT isn't going to help either
12:50:04  <kkmic> Well, it was a challenge
12:50:16  <TrueBrain> dihedral: there, added www :P
12:50:19  <Xaroth> learning python is a more fun challenge tbqfh :P
12:50:22  <TrueBrain> dihedral: tnx a lot :D I am still out of domains :(
12:50:22  <kkmic> Unfortunetely, I'm on the wrong side of the mountain, it seems
12:50:36  <Xaroth> there are mountains?
12:51:52  <TrueBrain> Added by Patric 'TrueBrain' Stout 871 days ago <- the good old days :D
12:52:01  <Alberth> kkmic: for what it is worth, I have programmed a bit of PHP, and was annoyed by it very soon. I also programmed Python, and found it MUCH more fun.
12:52:18  <Alberth> so you might enjoy learning a new language :)
12:52:48  <planetmaker> Well, sorry TrueBrain. Nice to see that indeed. I'd had hoped for this at the same time when it comes to "WT3 is not worth looking at".
12:52:50  <Xaroth> aye, python is more -fun- programming :P
12:53:22  <Xaroth> planetmaker: there's a dutch saying for that
12:53:31  <Alberth> Xaroth: until you have an application of a several 10,000 lines of code :)
12:53:48  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: fair enough :)
12:53:53  <Xaroth> Alberth: I do.. well.. maybe not several, but i've hit 14+k lines at least
12:54:11  <Alberth> that's pretty big already :)
12:54:39  <Xaroth> well it's at least -somewhat- organised..
12:54:49  <planetmaker> Xaroth: there are many Dutch sayings
12:54:57  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: new website is just 1.6k LoC :P
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12:55:15  <Xaroth> my home server codebase is 5k
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12:55:34  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: yeh, the new website can use another few K LoC
12:55:40  <Xaroth> planetmaker: yeh, but that one was a funny saying :P
12:55:40  <TrueBrain> kkmic: personally, I really don't care which language WT3.1 / WT4 would be written in. I favour Python, mostly because most of OpenTTD is in Python (NML, Website, ...)
12:55:52  <Xaroth> you'd have to be dutch or understand dutch to get it tho :P
12:56:09  <TrueBrain> PHP is one of my least favorites, mostly because it doesnt remember its state between requests
12:56:14  <TrueBrain> so stuff gets REALLY expensive really fast :)
12:56:24  <Xaroth> PHP is bloated as well
12:56:32  <TrueBrain> bloated or not, I don't care
12:56:35  <kkmic> What's a NML?
12:56:41  <TrueBrain> but that every requests needs to build up its state ....
12:56:46  <TrueBrain> NML is a language to write NewGRFs in
12:56:47  <planetmaker> Xaroth: Have fune hinting at unquoted sayings in a foreign language.
12:57:05  <TrueBrain> which allows translations in the same style as OpenTTD language files
12:57:44  <TrueBrain> (for which we want a WT to be capable of processing that)
12:57:48  <kkmic> I'm not saying that PHP is the best, but it's the only one I know and we use it here for every project, small and large, and it does it's job well
12:57:48  <Alberth> <-- there is NML
12:58:04  <kkmic> Speaking of job, I have on to get back to :)
12:58:09  <TrueBrain> kkmic: it is good for many things :)
12:58:10  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: yes, I'm now really happy about this. May it be unfinished and whatever. It's something "give" people.
12:58:11  <TrueBrain> (PHP that is)
12:58:13  <kkmic> *Speaking of job, I have one to get back to :)
12:58:21  <TrueBrain> have fun working kkmic :)
12:58:23  <planetmaker> To show them that one cares. To give them an idea.
12:58:37  <planetmaker> Which is nice. Tremendously nicer than 'dead end'
12:58:43  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, then I suggest you move it to the devzone, or keep dihedral happy :P
12:58:46  <TrueBrain> it is his domain
12:58:50  <planetmaker> :-)
12:59:21  <kkmic> It was a nice chat guys, see ya
13:00:16  <Alberth> bye
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13:01:43  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: talking about our "dead end" , it is the same as BaNaNaS. All people want to do is make small changes to the code to 'improve it', without them understanding that sometimes a piece of code went so far the wrong way, it is at a dead end and should be rewritten. In the example of BaNaNaS, the full source is available, yet nobody wants to do it
13:02:15  <TrueBrain> it often makes me sad; seems people are only interested in helping out with the 'easy' stuff
13:02:33  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: mind that I DO take your word on it, or at least have no doubt that it definitely will be the better solution
13:02:52  <TrueBrain> the main reason we still have the copy of the LW machine running, is because of WT :(
13:02:54  <TrueBrain> I cannot move it :(
13:03:02  <TrueBrain> it is _that_ bad :P
13:03:21  <TrueBrain> and tnx planetmaker :)
13:03:56  <planetmaker> My only concern - all what I said here today, and also other occasions - it's mostly that if it's accessible, people can see it.
13:04:12  <planetmaker> And often even seeing the old attempt is a good study case before re-designing it from scratch
13:04:29  <planetmaker> It teaches. What works. What doesn't work. What somewhat works
13:04:29  <TrueBrain> if someone is truly interested, I have many many test-cases :P
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13:04:51  <TrueBrain> but 90% stop caring when they understand that have to make some kind of design document first :(
13:05:05  <planetmaker> Well, sure. But you know how it goes: Before making a commitment, it's much easier and nicer if one can get an idea about the scope, size, extend and type of problems at hand
13:05:07  <TrueBrain> I guess I am a bit grumpy when it comes to that ;)
13:05:18  <Xaroth> bitter vet!
13:05:19  <planetmaker> yes :-P
13:05:27  <planetmaker> cookie? ;-)
13:05:49  <TrueBrain> but so yeah ... just ask if you want to know something; that is rarely a real issue :)
13:06:02  <TrueBrain> ugh, those ugly amazon cookies? They are old! :P
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14:07:40  <dihedral> <TrueBrain> dihedral: tnx a lot :D I am still out of domains :( <- i'm not :-P
14:07:52  <dihedral> still have too :-P
14:10:28  *** Sacro is now known as howdoyousolveaproblemlikemaria
14:10:39  <TrueBrain> @kick howdoyousolveaproblemlikemaria like this
14:10:39  *** howdoyousolveaproblemlikemaria was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [like this]
14:19:03  <Belugas> hello
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14:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i've done so much refactoring now, i probably made everything even worse...
14:37:10  <Alberth> nothing a 'revert' cannot fix :D
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14:41:28  <peter1138> or the patch to remove all bugs
14:41:51  <peter1138> dihedral, are they like cubicles?
14:43:16  <Terkhen> hello
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14:46:06  <fjb|tab> Moin Terkhen .
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16:20:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23529 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make all widget enum values unique and make them include the files they need to compile
16:21:44  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23530 /trunk/src/ (waypoint_gui.cpp widgets/waypoint_widget.h): -Codechange: begin unify the naming of widgets and add comments to them, in this case the waypoint view widgets
16:23:56  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23531 /trunk/src/ (36 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
16:26:05  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23532 /trunk/src/ (viewport_gui.cpp widgets/viewport_widget.h): -Codechange: unify widget naming of (extra) viewport
16:28:59  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23533 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp widgets/group_widget.h): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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16:35:59  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23534 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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16:38:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23535 /trunk/src/ (transparency_gui.cpp widgets/transparency_widget.h): -Codechange: unify widget naming of transparency toolbar
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16:46:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23536 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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16:49:27  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23537 /trunk/src/widgets/ (rail_widget.h road_widget.h sign_widget.h subsidy_widget.h): -Fix (r23529): typo in the word 'because' (tnx to Alberth for noticing)
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16:53:25  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23538 /trunk/src/ (tree_gui.cpp widgets/tree_widget.h): -Codechange: Consistent naming of widgets in tree plant gui
16:54:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23539 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp widgets/depot_widget.h): -Codechange: prevent conflict between widget naming of (vehicle) depots and vehicle details
16:55:11  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23540 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: unify and document vehicle widgets
16:57:26  <Hirundo> collaborative widget renaming commit spree (CWRCS) going on?
16:59:56  <Ammler> hehe, you fix typoes in the comments :-P
17:05:38  <planetmaker> :-)
17:06:03  <TrueBrain> they are as important as any other :)
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17:11:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23541 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Consistent naming of widgets in NewGRF debug window
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17:19:51  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23542 /trunk/src/ (town_gui.cpp widgets/town_widget.h): -Codechange: unify and document town related widgets
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17:42:59  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23543 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_gui.cpp widgets/newgrf_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and name consistently widgets of NewGRF window
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17:57:29  <Amis> Hai o/
17:57:39  <Amis> Soooo....
17:57:59  <Amis> If I'm creating a scenarion where can I set it to be "Funding only" regarding industries?
17:58:41  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23544 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
17:58:44  <Alberth> you set it before you create the scenario, I think
17:59:39  <Alberth> Finally I can understand widgets :p
18:00:15  <Amis> Alberth, the options are greyed out
18:00:18  <Amis> I can't change em
18:00:26  <planetmaker> Amis: yes. Only prior to map creation
18:00:33  <planetmaker> thus prior you start creating the scenario
18:00:48  <Amis> Hmm? :/
18:00:49  <Alberth> it is not in the options, it is in the create-world window
18:00:54  <Amis> Yes
18:00:57  <Amis> I'm saying that one
18:01:00  <Amis> Both "Off"
18:01:30  <Amis> In the scenario editor
18:02:26  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23545 /trunk/src/ (object_gui.cpp widgets/object_widget.h): -Codechange: Consistently name widgets in build object window
18:02:34  <Amis> I guess the option is missing
18:02:37  <Amis> Where can I report it?
18:02:57  <Amis> Hmm
18:03:20  <Amis> Got the bug tracker
18:03:22  <Alberth> I am wondering why it is the case. I cannot see a problem, but quite likely I am overlooking something
18:04:16  <Amis> Alberth, click Scenario Editor
18:04:28  <Amis> There's no way of setting the industries to funding only
18:04:34  * Alberth knows
18:04:48  <Amis> So if I play the map there will be new industries over time
18:04:50  <Alberth> the question is why that is the case
18:04:52  <Amis> And you can't disable it
18:05:04  <Amis> When you generate a map you can disable it
18:05:13  <Amis> But that's not the case with the scenario editor
18:06:32  <Amis> So it's a "missing feature"
18:06:57  <Amis> Unless I can set it in the console
18:07:18  <Alberth> I would assume that it was disabled for a reason, the problem is that I don't know that reason
18:09:13  <Alberth> even if the console allows it, it is still a missing feature imho, you should be able to set scenario properties without messing with consoles
18:09:55  <Amis> Yah
18:10:00  <Amis> Gonna put it into the trac
18:10:19  <Amis> Ehh
18:10:21  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23546 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:10:22  <Amis> Have to register
18:11:11  <TrueBrain> we don't use trac :P
18:11:21  <TrueBrain> (Well, we do, but read-only)
18:11:27  <Amis> Ow
18:11:38  <Amis> I ment Flyspray
18:16:37  <Amis> It seems you can actually "change" it in a way
18:17:06  <Amis> The settings of a new scenario defaults to the current difficult settings
18:17:14  <Amis> But you can't change it after the scenario is created
18:17:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23547 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:17:51  <Alberth> yes, and I think it is for consistency reasons
18:18:58  <Alberth> that is, you inherit ALL settings from the main menu, rather than only some of them can be changed afterwards
18:19:36  <Amis> But you should be able to change it
18:19:38  <Amis> I mean
18:19:45  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23548 /trunk/src/ (toolbar_gui.cpp widgets/toolbar_widget.h): -Codechange: unify and document toolbar widgets
18:19:51  <Amis> You create a noice scenario the n"oh shi-" you started with the wrong settings
18:20:07  <Amis> Editor should about editing stuff
18:20:21  <Amis> (like disabling industry spawning)
18:20:21  <planetmaker> *should*
18:20:46  <Alberth> the SE is quite under-developed
18:20:50  <Amis> :<
18:21:16  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23549 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp widgets/order_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and consistently name widgets of order GUI
18:23:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23550 /trunk/src/ (osk_gui.cpp widgets/osk_widget.h): -Codechange: unify naming of the on screen keyboard widgets
18:24:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23551 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:27:09  <planetmaker> so... which files are free?
18:29:07  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23552 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp widgets/news_widget.h): -Codechange: unify naming of the news widgets
18:29:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23553 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: avoid naming conflict in widget enums
18:30:03  <Alberth> Amis: it has been this way since nov 2007 at least, and probably longer
18:30:23  <Amis> Alberth, it didn't matter before because there was no "funding only" option
18:30:54  <Amis> I know it's not that new but it's just that SE slipped through the update without being modified
18:31:01  <Alberth> but you did have different industry densities
18:31:16  <Amis> But that did not affect spawning rate
18:31:17  <Amis> I guess
18:31:27  <Alberth> could be
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18:38:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23554 /trunk/src/widgets/ (6 files): -Codechange: some minor consistency fixes
18:39:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23555 /trunk/src/widgets/ (5 files): -Fix (r23554): save before commit
18:39:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23556 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp widgets/rail_widget.h): -Codechange: unify rail widget naming and document them
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18:41:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23557 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:41:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:41:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 9 changes by NG
18:41:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 110 changes by Tucalipe
18:41:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: swedish - 10 changes by Zuu
18:41:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: urdu - 160 changes by haider
18:44:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23558 /trunk/src/widgets/rail_widget.h: -Fix (r23556): ctrl-z too few ;)
18:46:04  <TrueBrain> so ~30 commits for name changes
18:46:05  <TrueBrain> lovely
18:48:25  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23559 /trunk/src/ (road_gui.cpp widgets/road_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and name consistently road build widgets
18:48:46  <planetmaker> commits are for free ;-)
18:51:36  <Alberth> yeah, but what about all those bits that you use? :)
18:52:35  <planetmaker> they're enslaved :-P
18:53:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23560 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: final pieces of consistency through widgets
18:54:01  <planetmaker> one commit to rule them all, one commit to find them, one commit to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
18:54:07  <planetmaker> or along those lines :-P
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18:58:35  <TrueBrain> lolz
18:58:40  <TrueBrain> no more tea for you my friend :D
18:59:20  <planetmaker> *slurp*
19:04:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23561 /trunk/src/widgets/graph_widget.h: -Codechange: forgot to document 1 widget enum
19:05:35  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23562 /trunk/src/widgets/company_widget.h: -Codechange: don't be lazy with the spacebar
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19:09:46  <andythenorth> efening
19:10:01  <fjb|tab> Moin andythenorth.
19:10:08  * andythenorth had another baby
19:10:09  <andythenorth> boy
19:10:11  <andythenorth> no name yet
19:10:13  <andythenorth> bbl
19:10:14  <andythenorth> ;)
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19:10:22  <Prof_Frink> andythesmall
19:12:02  <TrueBrain> lol @ andy :D
19:12:03  <TrueBrain> how sweet :)
19:15:08  <Rubidium> he could just name the baby boy
19:15:27  <planetmaker> :-P
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19:15:42  <Rubidium> ;)
19:19:21  <TrueBrain> can someone explain to me WHY I opened that link? :(
19:20:51  <Rubidium> the only reason I can think of: because you like Boy George
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19:21:41  <fjb|tab> Curiosity kills the TrueBrain.
19:22:24  <planetmaker> outch
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19:25:25  <fjb|tab> planetmaker: How about walking to the Brocken?
19:25:56  <planetmaker> In principle: why not? :-) But how snowy is it?
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19:27:45  <fjb|tab> A bit. The railway closed its service, a bit windy, too.
19:28:19  <fjb|tab> The hotel is also closed.
19:29:19  <fjb|tab> Speed of the wind is about 120km/h.
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19:32:06  <wyrzym> hi
19:32:51  <wyrzym> iam new in ottd
19:32:59  <wyrzym> and i have a problem
19:32:59  <Alberth> planetmaker: I thought about the industry settings, and imho enabling it in the world-generation window in the SE makes no sense, as there is no OK button
19:33:10  <Alberth> wyrzym: please tell us :)
19:33:11  <wyrzym> whene i start the game i cannot build anything
19:33:15  <Alberth> wyrzym: and welcome :)
19:33:18  <wyrzym> any hint?
19:33:25  <planetmaker> start in 1950
19:33:25  <Alberth> year?
19:33:30  <wyrzym> 1920
19:33:37  <planetmaker> that's the problem :-)
19:33:40  <wyrzym> hymmm
19:33:49  <wyrzym> old ttd alow to build form 1910
19:33:51  <wyrzym> :p
19:33:57  <wyrzym> if i good remember
19:33:57  <wyrzym> :D
19:34:23  <planetmaker> OpenTTD allows that, too.
19:34:25  <Alberth> no, TTDX started in 1950 too
19:34:31  <planetmaker> But the default vehicles are not available then.
19:34:55  <Alberth> you can start earlier, but you have to activate some early vehicle newgrfs before
19:34:56  <planetmaker> And the vehicles of OpenTTD by default are the same wrt introduction dates as TTD
19:35:01  <wyrzym> so, if i want to play from 1920 i have to...? download models? :>
19:35:06  <planetmaker> yes
19:35:09  <planetmaker> online content
19:35:13  <wyrzym> :O
19:35:15  <wyrzym> thx
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19:35:38  <Wolf01> evenink
19:35:39  <Alberth> evenink Wolf01
19:35:55  <wyrzym> GRF ?
19:36:04  <fjb|tab> Moin Wolf01.
19:36:27  <Alberth> wyrzym:
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19:39:22  <fjb|tab> With the right vehicles set you can start in 1700. But horse carriages tend to get boring after a while.
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20:26:48  <Alberth> congratulations andy!
20:26:55  <andythenorth> thanks
20:27:01  <andythenorth> I didn't do much tbh
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20:30:21  <Cardiz> Hello.
20:30:48  <Alberth> hi
20:31:44  <planetmaker> hey andythenorth, congratz! :-)
20:31:46  <Rubidium> congratulations andy and motherof(childof(andy)) ;)
20:32:02  <andythenorth> apparently we're stopping at 2
20:32:11  <planetmaker> lol :-)
20:32:23  <andythenorth> my view is, once you figure out a problem, you should scale the solution :P
20:32:31  <andythenorth> apparently this is not applicable in this case
20:32:53  <Alberth> 9 months is so very much fixed :)
20:32:53  <planetmaker> not sure that's a thing to discuss your wife hours after giving birth ;-)
20:36:22  <fjb|tab> Congratulations andythenorth.
20:36:51  <planetmaker> I hope all are well, andythenorth :-)
20:36:56  <planetmaker> Did you decide on a name yet?
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20:38:52  <Rubidium> I did suggest boy, and boy did TB like the like for that suggestion ;)
20:39:01  <andythenorth> no name yet
20:39:09  <andythenorth> also - now is probably a good time to work on FIRS
20:39:17  <andythenorth> as the toddler is asleep
20:39:23  <andythenorth> and the baby + wife are 50 miles away
20:39:26  <andythenorth> :P
20:40:01  <frosch123> 50 miles? you are quite living in the woods
20:40:38  <Rubidium> probably no decent hospital in the vicinity
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20:43:22  <Xaroth> grats andythenorth
20:43:37  <fjb|tab> Numbering the children would be easier than naming them.
20:43:51  <Xaroth> and wouldn't it be wise to stock up on some sleep, seeing you won't be seeing much of that the next few months :P
20:44:10  <Xaroth> fjb|tab: 1 of 9, 2 of 9 .. gets a bit awkward if 7 isn't a girl though..
20:44:14  <Alberth> fjb|tab: but you'd get so many children called 'one' in a class
20:44:52  <Xaroth> Alberth: that just requires a N of N suffix :P
20:45:31  <Xaroth> and the motto "Resistance is futile" for the local sheriff dept..
20:45:33  <andythenorth> fjb|tab: funny you should mention that
20:45:46  <andythenorth> the name of the first one literally translates as 'first' from Sanskrit
20:46:05  <andythenorth> there is another traditional sanskrit name which translates as 'second child'
20:46:11  <andythenorth> but my wife has ruled it out :(
20:46:40  <Xaroth> lol
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20:48:08  <Xaroth> andythenorth: wasn't Sanskrit one of those languages that has a lot of words with the same meaning?
20:48:18  <andythenorth> dunno
20:48:19  <andythenorth> maybe
20:48:30  <fjb|tab> Alberth: We had 3 Michaels in our class. And you could use a scheme of subnumbering: 1.1, 1.2, and etc...
20:49:25  <frosch123> there was this story about the woman who named all her children the same, and used the father's name for distinguishing :p
20:50:23  <Alberth> my grand father was also called Albert, so we had a 'senior' and a 'junior' Albert :)
20:50:43  <Rubidium> andythenorth: use Kofi (then you always know what day he was born)
20:58:55  <TrueBrain> concratz andythenorth :)
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21:42:26  * andythenorth -> bed
21:42:27  <andythenorth> bye
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22:00:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23563 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Cleanup: remove useless global variable from strgen; it would always be false at the point it would be read
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22:25:39  <Cardiz> How many players were in OpenTTD before the some Yogscast's action
22:25:58  <Alberth> we don't know
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22:26:33  <Cardiz> But well, 25k of new players is still nice.
22:26:53  <Alberth> if they all stay, yes :)
22:27:02  <Cardiz> Well I doubt that. :(
22:27:20  <Cardiz> The game can be a little complicated at start, and mostly people give up at the first minutes and uninstall the game.
22:27:27  <Alberth> some will stick probably
22:27:49  <Cardiz> I'll be honest: The only reason why I am playing OpenTTD is the graphics.
22:27:53  <Cardiz> :P
22:28:09  <Alberth> the graphics?
22:28:17  <Cardiz> Yes.
22:29:02  <Alberth> hmm, maybe I am too old :)   I play for building tracks and stations, shuffling stuff around to make room for more tracks/trains
22:31:14  * fjb|tab feels like Alberth.
22:31:22  <planetmaker> :-)
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22:31:32  <planetmaker> Seems there are many ways to enjoy the game :-)
22:31:53  <Chris_Booth> hi all
22:32:03  <planetmaker> hey Chris_Booth
22:32:18  <Chris_Booth> hi planetmaker long time no talk
22:32:26  <Wolf01> o/ Chris_Booth
22:32:38  * Alberth is glad most of the 117 do not respond :)
22:32:38  <Chris_Booth> hi Wolf01
22:32:46  <Chris_Booth> lol
22:33:01  <Chris_Booth> 117 highlights would be hell
22:33:39  <Alberth> lol :)
22:33:51  <frosch123> Cardiz: while yogscast gave a short peak, the download numbers for 1.0.0 were a lot higher
22:34:05  <frosch123> it was featured on multiple smaller sites
22:34:24  <frosch123> while every of those peaks were not as big as the yogscast one, they were more in total
22:34:42  <Alberth> I once sent a chain email around. I needed to send it 15 times or so in 24 hours, so I sent one email every hour + something, back to original sender :p
22:34:46  <Wolf01> [23:35:33] <planetmaker> Seems there are many ways to enjoy the game :-) <- I like to play old savegames to un-entangle the tracks, starting a new game is boring
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22:35:24  <Alberth> Wolf01: oh that's nice, I do that sometimes with random savegames from the forum
22:36:14  <planetmaker> :-) yeah, can be nice
22:36:46  <planetmaker> when I play on our public server, one thing I enjoy most is improve or exand a live hub without interrupting flow
22:37:05  <planetmaker> blocking all entry and re-building is something many can :-)
22:37:28  <planetmaker> re-building while keeping traffic and not crashing trains... takes longer but is more fun
22:37:36  <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: the road worker
22:37:44  <Wolf01> I do all my changes live
22:38:01  * Alberth nods, much more fun
22:38:18  <Chris_Booth> second that
22:39:00  <Wolf01> and if I find the section too hard, I just put some bypass routes
22:40:07  <frosch123> planetmaker: that approach has the prerequisite that you start fixing the problem before it is completely jammed up :p
22:41:30  <Chris_Booth> but if that is the case you have bigger issues that the one junction you are working on
22:42:16  <Cardiz> Railway networks are my personal horrors.
22:42:28  <Wolf01> I once figured out how to fix a >300 maglev 6 tracks mainline, which was blocked... was like playing this game:
22:43:09  <Cardiz> How do I make trains and cars not slow down when driving up the hill?
22:43:17  <Cardiz> In some servers they don't slow down.
22:43:47  <Chris_Booth> change the acceleration model
22:43:58  <Chris_Booth> there are 2 in game orignal and realistic
22:44:09  <Chris_Booth> you can also chage slope gradient
22:44:18  <Cardiz> I changed the slope gradient to zero.
22:45:03  <Chris_Booth> then change the acceleration model to realisitic
22:45:18  <Alberth> Cardiz: it's much easier to just play at a flat surface then :)
22:46:11  <Cardiz> I cannot make the world flat.
22:46:15  <Cardiz> It costs too much.
22:46:32  <Alberth> start the scenario editor, make a flat map, save, play
22:46:59  <Alberth> or even just a heightmap with 1 colour :p
22:47:55  <Alberth> but imho, mountains and break-downs add to the challenge :D
22:48:19  <Alberth> especially in arctic climate
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22:48:49  <Cardiz> Chris, changing the accelration to reallistic worked! Thank you!
22:48:51  <Alberth> good night all
22:49:04  <Chris_Booth> np Cardiz
22:49:19  <Chris_Booth> your train will not slow in turns so much now
22:49:23  <Wolf01> 'night Alberth
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22:49:50  <glx> but it will slow down on slopes :)
22:50:29  <Cardiz> It doesn't.
22:51:07  <glx> check >2 tiles slope
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22:52:45  <Cardiz> I'll check.
22:52:48  <Cardiz> Right now.
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22:54:08  <frosch123> night
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22:56:13  <Chris_Booth> anyone know any nice cargodest servers?
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23:00:52  <Cardiz_> Well yeah glx, you're right.
23:01:03  <Cardiz_> The train slows down on >2 tiles slope.
23:01:18  <Cardiz_> But there are rarely any >2 tiles slopes in game.
23:01:25  <glx> but it's still better than slow down in turns
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23:01:51  <glx> it's realistic :)
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23:09:44  <Chris_Booth> you can always add more locos to stop slowing
23:10:28  <glx> inded
23:10:30  <glx> +e
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23:49:17  <Wolf01> 'night all
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