Log for #openttd on 2nd January 2012:
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00:00:36  <FLHerne> : ( ?
00:01:39  <iddqd> i fail to fix my city
00:01:46  <iddqd> i dont know what im doign wrong,. rating keeps @ very poor
00:02:02  <iddqd> planting trees, putting in more ubsses
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00:05:51  <supermop_> you could start a thread on the forum with a savegame posted
00:07:00  <supermop_> I once had a game where a couple of cities got stuck on appalling for no understandable reason, I think it was a bug in a patch I was using.
00:07:23  <supermop_> If you post a save game people might be able to look at it and see what is wrong
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01:08:57  <dnger229> any one know how to fix this problum   when i try to build sttions the botton to do so is gryed out
01:10:17  <dnger229> #oftc
01:10:18  <dnger229> whops
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01:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
01:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> sure.
01:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no problem.
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01:33:18  <yorick> r23709 will just cause lots of server names to start with AAAA
01:33:36  <yorick> random sort instead of alphabetic sort may be better
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01:37:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: or we just start to manually ban servers which try to "optimize" their position...
01:43:01  <FLHerne> Won't stop people choosing sensible names starting with "a" though, surely?
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01:43:54  <FLHerne> Random would be fairer, is there a reason it doesn't work?
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01:54:57  <mib_3m7zjl> hello
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02:24:06  <iddqd> man i love this game
02:24:07  <iddqd> it’s so good
02:24:14  <iddqd> unfortunately i made a mistake in my design
02:24:19  <iddqd> my trains keep crashing into buses
02:24:23  <iddqd> fortunately, only drivers die
02:24:24  <iddqd> :3
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02:26:09  <kkb110_> how do I compile 1.1 branch so that it can join other 1.1.4 servers ?
02:26:49  <kkb110_> I changed to  const char _openttd_revision[] = "1.1.4";    in
02:27:15  <kkb110_> but still get "We made a protocol-error and our connection is closed" error
02:33:06  <kkb110_> I'm using git 1.1 branch
02:36:17  <fjb|tab> You have to use the exactly same version.
02:36:51  <fjb|tab> iddqd: Try path signals.
02:37:09  <iddqd> do they block roads?
02:37:13  <iddqd> anywho
02:37:18  <iddqd> can i upgrade airports without destroying them?
02:37:43  <fjb|tab> The gates close as soon as the path gets reserved.
02:37:51  <fjb|tab> No.
02:37:56  <iddqd> dang it
02:40:40  <kkb110_> fjb|tab, so I think I'm using the same version 1.1.4
02:41:31  <kkb110_> the latest 1.1 is 1.1.4, which the last modification is 4th Dec
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02:43:01  <kkb110_> identical to the website binary download version
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02:45:55  <planetmaker> kkb110_: only the 1.1.4 tag is identical and network-compatible with 1.1.4 stable
02:46:06  <planetmaker> the 1.1 branch will not do
02:46:23  <kkb110_> oh.... so I need to use tag instead of branch?
02:46:48  <planetmaker> yes
02:47:30  <kkb110_> but where is the tag ?
02:47:46  <planetmaker> only in the svn repository
02:47:59  <kkb110_> ...... ok..... thanks
02:48:53  <planetmaker> hg and git work differently there, and thus the tags are not easily mirrored to those
03:02:30  <iddqd> what does this mean?
03:02:36  <iddqd> Can’t place here, airport too spread out
03:02:38  <iddqd> erm
03:02:43  <iddqd> can’t place airport here, stations too spread out
03:08:18  <fjb|tab> Did you join it with other station tiles os bus stops?
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03:25:39  <iddqd> yes fjb|tab
03:46:09  <encoded> why are there so many bus crashes with trains D:
03:46:42  <encoded> does killing people affect my reputation?
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03:54:25  <supermop_> in real life? yes
03:54:32  <supermop_> i'd advise against it
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04:28:51  <kkb110_> I'm making something interesting :) automatic one-way train
04:29:35  <kkb110_> trains will be automatically sold after unloading and purchased again at a depot near loading station
04:30:43  <kkb110_> the point is, I can use this in goal servers :)
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05:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> encoded: each time an accident happens (bus or plane crash), all nearby station ratings drop to 0 and only slowly recover
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05:28:53  <planetmaker> kkb110_: that idea isn't new... Rondje implemented that cheat method years ago
05:28:56  <planetmaker> ;-)
05:29:41  <DDR> Say, how do the goal servers work, anyway?
05:45:05  <kkb110_> planetmaker, oh really? is there a website or something I can download and see?
05:46:05  <kkb110_> DDR, it's a competition, your company has to grow as fast as you can
05:46:10  <adamkex> are the deb files that are available for download also usable for dedicated servers?
05:46:46  <kkb110_> once somebody reaches a certain size, he wins and the game will be restarted
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05:52:36  <DDR> OK -- kkb110_, is there any tracking of how many companies you've grown?
06:02:26  <Rubidium> adamkex: yes, all binaries can also be used as dedicated server unless you built the binary without network support. But the .debs have network support, so it will have the dedicated server
06:03:28  <kkb110_> DDR, no, the server only consider one company you're controlling now
06:04:33  <kkb110_> DDR, are you asking about ranking board? yes, some servers provides each user's overall score through many games
06:04:41  <adamkex> Rubidium: thanks, since i am not using debian/ubuntu, do those debs have X/sdl as a dependancy?
06:04:53  <adamkex> Rubidium: i can't check the deps
06:05:40  <Rubidium> adamkex: yes, they depend on sdl and some other libraries that aren't needed for a server
06:06:19  <adamkex> Rubidium: so then i guess i have to compile from source if i do not want SDL, correct?
06:06:41  <Rubidium> yup
06:07:12  <DDR> Thanks. :)
06:16:34  <adamkex> Rubidium: ok thanks
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08:44:16  <andythenorth> mornings
08:45:54  <peter1138> indeeds
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11:22:53  <Wolf01> o/
11:24:05  <__ln__> bueno nuevo anno duemilunodue
11:26:33  <TrueBrain> @kick __ln__ English only (you had thatone coming)
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11:28:11  <planetmaker> moin
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11:40:13  <planetmaker> wb :-)
11:40:23  <__ln__> ty
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11:49:55  <appe_> hm, i wish to set up my first own openttd-server. in terms of manual and wiki, where do i start? :)
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11:50:55  <TrueBrain> ? :D
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11:51:38  <appe_> yes, well ..yes.
11:52:12  <appe_> ah, i see. the FAQ_multiplayer should be enough?
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12:02:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23711 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: don't chain the two vehicle hashes, but call them one by one
12:02:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23712 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rename the two vehicle hashes we have to names that make clear where they differ in
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12:31:19  <andythenorth> if my house is using 666 Watts of electricity, would that be bad?
12:33:30  <blathijs> andythenorth: Just make sure you don't maintaint that power usage for 666 seconds, cause then you'll have a Hell Gate open near your breaker box ;-P
12:34:44  <andythenorth> I'll boil the kettle
12:34:51  <andythenorth> that will put it to ~4KW
12:34:51  <andythenorth> :P
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13:31:36  <iddqd> hiya
13:31:39  <iddqd> i can’;t fund large towns
13:31:46  <iddqd> is this a server config issue? or what
13:31:53  <Yexo> I think that's intended
13:32:04  <Yexo> if you fund towns in-game you should grow them by providing good transport
13:32:04  <planetmaker> you can only fund small ones
13:32:43  <iddqd> also whjat is the difference between a city and non cityu
13:39:18  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23713 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: split VehicleMove() into two functions, to minimalize the work done where possible
13:39:28  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23714 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: don't mix Viewport with non-viewport code
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13:46:57  <jordgubb> hi
13:47:21  <jordgubb> just a question
13:48:01  <__ln__> but no answer?
13:48:05  <jordgubb> do you need anything to play lan on openTTD?
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13:52:25  <Yexo> a computer would be nice, and don't forget the local network
13:52:58  <planetmaker> a computer. a network. and a 2nd computer. and a router. A OS which supports running OpenTTD, means to obtain OpenTTD and actually unzipping or installing it and appropriate base graphics
13:53:04  <SpComb> a router?
13:53:24  <planetmaker> it's also more fun to have a 2nd mate than play solo a lan game
13:53:24  <kais58> s/router/switch/
13:53:42  <kais58> just most routers have built in switches
13:53:42  <TrueBrain> s/switch/a hub or better/
13:54:02  <SpComb> a patch cable and MDI-X nics :)
13:54:17  <TrueBrain> SpComb: or just a crosscable
13:54:36  <SpComb> everything does MDI-X now, crossover cables are dead
13:54:38  <TrueBrain> well, I guess you can even setup a nullmodem for it
13:54:58  <TrueBrain> SpComb: everyone has a router, but that was not the point here :)
13:55:22  <SpComb> LAN parties with internet access are lame
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13:56:14  <planetmaker> jordgubb: as you see: we take questions literally. We don't like meta-questions. We don't like to do guesswork caused by fuzzy questions :-)
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16:15:31  <Wolfsherz> hi, is using dbsetxl still recommended for the actual openttd version?
16:15:53  <Elukka> don't think there's any problems with it
16:16:43  <Rubidium> I wouldn't recommend it; it's too difficult to get it, and it's just ancient and it hasn't had any bugfix for many many years
16:17:31  <Wolfsherz> thats too bad :( any good replacement available?
16:20:27  <Wolfsherz> i'm trying to get together a good set of newgrf... i am currently playing with German Town Names
16:20:27  <Wolfsherz> Total Town Replacement Set
16:20:27  <Wolfsherz> Modified Building Costs
16:20:27  <Wolfsherz> Industrial Stations Renewal
16:20:27  <Wolfsherz> New Stations
16:20:28  <Wolfsherz> Stations Name from nearby Industry
16:20:30  <Wolfsherz> DBSetXL
16:20:34  <Wolfsherz> DB Double Deck Coaches
16:20:36  <Wolfsherz> German Road Vehicles
16:20:38  <Wolfsherz> New Ships
16:20:40  <Wolfsherz> German Signals
16:20:42  <Wolfsherz> Generic Buffers
16:21:07  <TrueBrain> please use pastebins for such lists
16:21:08  <TrueBrain> thank you.
16:21:23  <Wolfsherz> it was supposed to be a one-liner, sorry
16:21:26  <Rubidium> Wolfsherz: DBSetXL is from (roughly) the time before OpenTTD supported NewGRFs
16:21:29  <TrueBrain> no problem :)
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16:22:19  <Wolfsherz> Rubidium: which train set do you use personally?
16:23:04  <Rubidium> the default trains
16:23:25  <Chris_Booth> Wolfsherz: I use UKRS 3.04 has some great trains
16:23:40  <Chris_Booth> not a great looking set again it is for befor openttd had newgrfs
16:24:38  <Yexo> not sure of the current state of CETS, but you might like to try that one (use openttd 1.2.0-beta1 or a recent trunk version)
16:27:47  <Wolfsherz> what does CETS stand for?
16:29:41  <Yexo> central european train set
16:29:49  <Yexo>
16:30:32  <encoded> is OpenTTD what "train freaks" do nowadays?
16:30:52  <planetmaker> funnily enough, there are two German Townname sets, Wolfsherz ;-)
16:31:30  <Wolfsherz> planetmaker: i just know of one
16:32:00  <planetmaker> there's the one on bananas. And there's one hidden somewhere in the German forums, albeit a bit older
16:33:02  <planetmaker> the bananas one has in comparison additionally the option to generate random names.
16:34:11  <Wolfsherz> i have got the one from bananas
16:34:30  <Wolfsherz> Yexo: trying that train set, thank you
16:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS has lots of missing graphics still (you'll get green boxes floating around)
16:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and (almost) no prices have been set
16:39:14  <Wolfsherz> duh
16:42:31  <Wolfsherz> you can zoom in now? great! thanks!
16:45:26  <Wolfsherz> what about these opengfx+ sets? any good?
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16:48:14  <Yexo> yes, very :)
16:48:34  <Yexo> they basically provides small improvements over the default without changing too much
16:48:59  <Yexo> opengfx+landscape provides a gridless landscape, opengfx+airports allows you to rotate airports, opengfx+trains/rv allows you to refit your vehicles etc.
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16:50:57  <Snail_> planetmaker: I did some more work on the tunnels we talked about yesterday
16:51:06  <planetmaker> :-)
16:51:52  <Snail_>
16:52:19  <Snail_> the top 2 lines are attempts for the northbound tunnels
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16:52:55  <Snail_> I tried to shorten the "bowl" in 2 different sizes. Which one do you think is better?
16:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> circuit breakers are evil...
16:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and then i'm like "wait... how do you boot this thing again?"
16:53:31  <planetmaker> you mean north-east?
16:53:44  <planetmaker> (North is straight up)
16:53:48  <Snail_> north-west
16:54:10  <Snail_> the first 2 lines are NW-bound with two different lengths for the bowl
16:54:29  <Snail_> the last 2 rows are the SE- and SW-bound with more grass as we discussed yesterday
16:55:38  <planetmaker> comparing the upper two for NW bound... unsure, possibly the lower one. But would need test, I guess
16:55:55  <Snail_> ok
16:56:04  <planetmaker> don't throw away the other ones yet
16:56:07  <planetmaker> ;-)
16:56:30  <Snail_> I can send you both and then we can test it. I'm almost done
16:58:35  <planetmaker> sure
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17:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* don't debug configuration problems as root on the wrong machine
17:08:55  <Elukka> i said browsing the brawa site for reference would get expensive... i was going to buy one small wagon to see how it runs
17:08:59  <Elukka> now i have six coming
17:13:18  <Snail_> planetmaker: I assume you will also need some custom tunnel portals to test this, right?
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17:19:48  <astol> hey guys
17:20:19  <astol> Just tried 1.1.4 version, it was a long time since I played last time
17:20:29  <astol> can't figure out how to use new signals, Path signals
17:20:50  <astol> I mean, they're explained pretty good everywhere
17:20:54  <encoded> its easy!
17:21:17  <astol> yeah, I guess - from the amount of questions on the internet (not much)
17:21:23  <encoded> :D
17:21:42  <astol> so I think I'm missing some obvious point here
17:21:50  <Elukka> well, i'd say they're easier than the normal signals
17:22:29  <astol> what's the most basic way to use them?
17:22:29  <Elukka> for small networks they're very forgiving, but it's good practice to only put signals in places where a train can safely (ie, not blocking a junction) wait
17:22:54  <astol> Yeah, that I get
17:23:17  <astol> but I can't understand how to replace placement I'm used to with path signals
17:23:59  <Elukka> just place signals far away enough from junctions to be safe and then on the line as normal
17:24:45  <Yexo> astol: remove all your exit signals, replace all entry signals by a path signal. Combo signals you either have to replace or remove, depends on the situation
17:25:06  <astol> hmmm
17:25:22  <astol> I'm really oldschool, never used presignals :)
17:25:29  <astol> here's what I usually use
17:25:31  <astol>
17:25:58  <astol> when I need to put two trains on a single track
17:26:30  <astol> how do I replace this configuration with path signals?
17:26:55  <astol> or maybe I'm just using some stupid configuration to start with?
17:27:43  <astol> Yexo: replace with what?
17:27:49  <Yexo> a path signal
17:28:18  <Yexo> astol: put two path signals in that image in total
17:28:37  <Yexo> one on the left track and one on the right track, both at the end of the lane facing the double tracks
17:29:51  <astol>
17:29:55  <astol> Like this you mean?
17:30:17  <astol> wait, no, not like this..
17:30:20  <Wolfsherz> does 1.2 beta1 have a new title game?
17:30:46  <Yexo> like this
17:30:50  <Yexo> Wolfsherz: no
17:31:01  <Yexo> Wolfsherz: it'll probably be in 1.2.0-rc1
17:31:17  <Wolfsherz> but 1.1.4 had a different one
17:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the 1.2 one has not been decided yet
17:33:52  <astol> (experimenting)
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17:37:24  <astol> well guys, looks like I've got it :)
17:37:34  <astol> thanks a lot!
17:37:48  <astol> the only thing that keeps bothering me, is how did I manage to make them crash
17:38:31  <astol> if the train waits until he reserves a path that doesn't cross anyone else's path
17:45:57  <appe_> im playing on a server, and i have never done it like this before. i keep going bancrupt, but i cant see why
17:46:06  <appe_> is there a standard time limit for a loan?
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17:48:56  <planetmaker> Snail_: yes, that would be good. It would be nice, if I would have alignment data for them, too.
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17:54:22  <Snail_> planetmaker: ok, I will draw them and make a scheme so that you know how to align them
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18:16:59  <Terkhen> hello
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18:40:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23715 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
18:40:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:40:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 48 changes by Phreeze
18:40:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: portuguese - 7 changes by SupSuper
18:40:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: turkish - 100 changes by niw3
18:40:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 11 changes by Fixer
18:40:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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19:01:22  <nat_> Hey, is there any way to remove newgrif files from scenerios?
19:01:47  <nat_> you used to be able to disable them once you opened the scenerio, it would just start paused and warn you about instablility
19:02:24  <Yexo> too many people ignored that warning and still filed bug reports, so we've disabled that functionality be default now
19:02:28  <nat_> By my favorite map has a Newgrif dependency that cannot be found anywhere, and I can't take it off.
19:02:29  <Rubidium> yeah, and 99% ignored the message and a significant part of these people complained/filed bug reports caused by the removed NewGRFs
19:02:34  <nat_> is there away to turn it back on?
19:02:52  <nat_> because in older versions I never had that problem with this specific map
19:02:59  <nat_> I don't even know why the Newgrif is in it.
19:03:09  <Yexo> yes, by turning on the scenario developer setting
19:03:15  <Yexo> search around if you don't know how
19:03:17  <nat_> where is that option?
19:03:22  <Rubidium> I think you you mean "noticed" instead of "had"
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19:10:32  <nat_> well I turned that option on and I get a different bug. It's complaining about invalid town name genorators.
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19:10:49  <nat_> is there any way to remove a grif from a scenario without opening it?
19:11:10  <nat_> I used to just be able to open the scenerio and remove the grif and nothing happened.
19:11:18  <nat_> The Map is "The Barrens"
19:11:58  <nat_>
19:13:11  <Terkhen> nat_: that's one of the errors you can get after removing NewGRFs, yes
19:13:23  <Terkhen> and no, you need to open it at the scenario editor or as a game
19:13:37  <nat_> same thing happens if I do either.
19:13:48  <nat_> it worked back in the old versions
19:14:01  <Yexo> the scenario "The Barrens" opens for me without any problems
19:14:02  <nat_> is there no way to sanitize this map for the ones?
19:14:08  <Yexo> the grf can be found in the openttdcoop grf pack
19:15:24  <Terkhen> you need the NewGRFs included in the scenario... if you don't care about industry/town placement you can open the scenario in the scenario editor using 1.2.0-beta1 and use "save as heightmap"
19:15:36  <Terkhen> then you can play that heightmap with whatever climate/NewGRF selection you want
19:16:03  <Yexo> "the barrens uses "English (Additional)" as town names, you shouldn't get an error on that
19:16:51  <nat_> it says it needs newstatsw.grf
19:17:01  <Yexo> <Yexo> the grf can be found in the openttdcoop grf pack <- as I said, it can be found
19:17:04  <planetmaker> yeah. get that newgrf
19:18:28  <nat_> why aren't they on the list in the game?
19:19:01  <Yexo> because the author of that newgrf didn't upload it, and nobody else is allowed to
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19:21:19  <nat_> do I just copy everything from the zip into the directory?
19:21:29  <nat_>  /data that is
19:21:35  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: do we need wÃŒrttemberg coaches? they look pretty nice and distinct
19:22:36  <nat_> oh strange
19:22:48  <nat_> I still get the broken savegame problem with the right grif
19:22:49  <nat_> :C
19:25:43  <nat_> that's my favorite map and I can't get it to work
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19:38:54  <Zuu> nat_: Can you create a new map with that particular NewGRF? Does the md5 of the newgrf that you downloaded match the one used in the scenario?
19:39:09  <Zuu> Could be that it is a older version in the scenario maybe?
19:41:25  <Zuu> Btw, for me it says that the path to the newgrf file is ottdc_grfpack_stations\newstats\newstatsw.grf
19:41:45  <Zuu> ottdc_grfpack is a directory in my data directory in Documents\OpenTTD.
19:42:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r23716 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Revert (r23705)[FS#4937]: unforeseen consequences
19:42:48  <nat_> the scenario is old
19:43:01  <nat_> and I can't find a newer version
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19:45:31  <Zuu> I ment that you must make sure to obtain exactly the verison of the newgrf as was used for the scenario. Not a newer one. Not a older one.
19:46:38  <Zuu> As the path I posted above doesn't go into a legacy pack, it shows that you should be good with the last stable grf pack.
19:47:07  <nat_> oh?
19:47:32  <Zuu> But if you want to debug this further, you could match the md5 of your downloaded newgrf-file and what is claimed by the scenario.
19:47:40  <nat_> so how do I do that?
19:49:47  <nat_> the map was made for 0.6.0-beta2, so which pack would correspond with that pack?
19:49:56  <nat_> that build rather
19:50:51  <appe_> bah
19:50:52  <appe_> this sucks
19:50:53  <Zuu> Do you know what md5 is? If not, I suggest reading up a bit or waiting for someone with more patience to explain it. You could also start by mentioning with OS you run.
19:51:21  <appe_> early in a hard network game. bus build iron ore > steel mill > factory > city
19:51:42  <appe_> no particular money, and the iron ore industry vanishes
19:51:46  <appe_> twat-faces life.
19:51:48  <appe_> :<
19:51:51  <nat_> windows 7
19:51:57  <SpComb> appe_: reincorporate
19:52:05  <Zuu> nat_: also did you do as I suggested to verify that OpenTTD finds the grf in question by trying to create a new game with it?
19:53:24  <appe_> SpComb: no money, and to strict loan rules.
19:54:30  <nat_> MD5sum is 44EB2F155862E4D4F0AB67
19:55:49  <Zuu> of what?
19:55:50  <nat_> and making a map with it normaly works fine
19:56:11  <Zuu> both, or just one?
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19:56:36  <nat_> you know, I don't think I can tell
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19:56:42  <Rubidium> 6D620601 44EB2F155862E4D4F0AB671D7021AF54 NewStations V0.42 05.09.05 (one of 6 with the same name)
19:56:48  <nat_> the game seems to assume this is the one it needs,
19:57:01  <nat_> well Fffffffffffffffffffffff
19:57:19  * nat_ shakes fist at whoever decided to give 6 different versions the same name.
19:58:57  <nat_> how do I know which one i need?
19:59:08  <nat_> the game just seems to match the name
19:59:22  <planetmaker> the load game dialoge will tell you the md5version. But it should load also w/o matching md5sum
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20:01:58  <nat_> oh here we go
20:02:20  <nat_> no wait it shows the same one as before.
20:03:29  <nat_> I could just do the highmap thing, but in a tropical map that would ruin the desert bits
20:03:38  <nat_> also I like the industry/town placement
20:03:49  <Zuu> nat_: Try last nightly
20:03:52  <Zuu> of OpenTTD.
20:04:06  <Zuu> I get the broken town generator error with 1.1, but not with last nightly.
20:04:12  <nat_> should I uninstall?
20:04:25  <Zuu> 1.2 beta will probably also work. I'll check.
20:04:40  <nat_> uninstall first?
20:04:51  <Zuu> 1.2-beta 1 also works.
20:04:53  <planetmaker> openttd needs no real install
20:04:57  <Zuu> You can have them side by side
20:05:01  <nat_> cool
20:05:03  <planetmaker> just unzip the newer one into a dir parallel
20:05:25  <Zuu> To clarify, not in the same directory as you 1.1, but another.
20:06:45  <nat_> and If I install over it will it replace it?
20:06:48  <nat_> or will it break?
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20:07:37  <Zuu> It will usually not break, but mixing manual install with installation managed by an installer is sually not a good idea.
20:07:56  *** ^Spike^ [] has quit [Server closed connection]
20:08:10  <Zuu> However, if you overwrite your old files, make sure to unzip all files of 1.2 beta, not just openttd.exe.
20:08:29  <nat_> i use installer for both cases
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20:08:37  <Zuu> Cleanest and best is however to make a separate install. Your config files etc. are usally not stored ther anyway.
20:08:42  <Zuu> there*
20:08:45  <nat_> I'm not confidant to manual install.
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20:09:32  <nat_> IT WORKS!
20:09:37  <nat_> thank you people!
20:12:06  <Zuu> You will want to checkout the forums or for next beta and the RCs as they arrive. I usually run the nightly builds with works in most cases so the beta should be fairly stable, but when running "blending edge" it is a good idea to get all updates.
20:13:19  <nat_> the old question, run the latest and have support, or the older ones and have stability.
20:14:41  <Zuu> In case of OpenTTD, I would just run the latest and have all recent bug fixes. In fact I've written a luancher for OpenTTD that updates it before starting it. :-)
20:15:18  <nat_> another unrelated question, is there any way to make the towns less anal? without cheating or anything
20:15:32  <nat_> Bribery is really expensive and not really effective.
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20:15:41  <Zuu> Buy them trees
20:15:44  <nat_> the only real way to lobby is to plant tons and tons of trees
20:15:45  <nat_> yeah
20:15:51  <nat_> but sometimes i run out of room for trees
20:15:59  <nat_> you should be able to buy them upgrades
20:16:02  <Zuu> Then demolish the trees and build new ones.
20:16:03  <nat_> or hire lobyists.
20:16:12  <nat_> but demolishing the tress makes them mad aggain
20:16:31  <Zuu> There is a mimimum level on how angry they can get. So demolish more trees than that limit and then build them up again.
20:16:42  <nat_> Ohhhh
20:16:54  <nat_> anyways, there should at least be an extra permissive level
20:18:47  <nat_> because permissive isn't
20:18:53  <planetmaker> oh it is.
20:18:58  <nat_> I can't imagine playing the game on the less permissive levels
20:19:10  <planetmaker> it's just not the cozy forgiveness a mother has with her 3-year old ;-)
20:19:19  <Zuu> Make sure to build your stations before building the infrastructure and you should be good.
20:19:35  <nat_> also, they should temporarily lower there raiting when they offer subsadies
20:19:43  <nat_> because that's just TERRIBLE
20:20:14  <nat_> "Connect us to that other town NOW!" "sure just let me build this roa..." "NO!"
20:20:51  <nat_> also, how do i turn tooltips on
20:20:58  <nat_> I can't tell what all these crazy signals are without them
20:21:02  <Zuu> They are on
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20:21:20  <Zuu> Depending on your settings either hold your mouse a while or right click on the buttons.
20:21:24  <nat_> oh wait I was just not holding it down
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20:22:06  <Zuu> Hmm, this scenario provides some good excercise for my AI :-)
20:24:54  <iddqd> what are must have newgrf files to play with?
20:29:00  <nat_> I like tropical refurbishment
20:29:03  <nat_> or whatever it's called
20:29:12  <nat_> and industrial stations
20:29:58  <nat_> are there any AIs that aren'
20:30:04  <nat_> aren't retarded?
20:30:37  <Zuu> please define retarded
20:31:01  <nat_> build crazy shit that goes nowhere and gets in the way
20:31:03  <nat_> and looks ugly
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20:31:24  <nat_> also, is it worth it to build short range air routes to fill a maill subsady?
20:31:37  <Zuu> sure, there are several quite good AIs
20:33:27  <nat_> it would be cool if you could build depots like stations
20:33:36  <Zuu> But mind showing a bit more respect to the effort that all AI authors has spent on their AI. I'm sure several of them have taken 100 hours or more to write.
20:33:46  <nat_> make servicing trains without causing traffic jams easier.
20:34:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23717 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4927]: ships going to wrong dock location when moving the dock while the game is paused
20:34:15  <iddqd> if a server adds grf files
20:34:21  <iddqd> are clients forced to download them as well?
20:34:23  <iddqd> or how does that work
20:34:36  <MagisterQuis> Ok, so why do we have to have grf files to run a dedicated server?
20:34:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23718 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#4936]: rescanai caused crash when the AI settings of an AI was opened
20:35:06  <TrueBrain> MagisterQuis: grfs are more than graphics
20:35:21  <TrueBrain> it is like needed the executable to run a dedicated
20:35:28  <TrueBrain> only grfs are plugable files
20:35:32  <MagisterQuis> TrueBrain: Oh.
20:35:32  <MagisterQuis> Ok.
20:35:46  <TrueBrain> iddqd: yes; if the GRFs are on BaNaNaS, this is made really easy.
20:35:53  <Rubidium> grf stands for "game resource file"
20:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that, of course, is a backronym
20:40:44  <nat_> it is?
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20:45:58  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: at least it's better than "graphics resource file" or whatever else you come up with that contains graphics
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20:57:56  <DDR> ^Spike^: Are you the last one?
20:58:26  <nat_> towns don't seem to care about resources delivered to industries within there radius
20:58:37  <^Spike^> i hope not.... i hate to repopulate the world :)
20:58:39  <nat_> even if they care about the train station that was developed to connect to it
20:58:48  <nat_> I guess people in this game don't have jobs
20:59:34  <DDR> Guess you're not golden, then. :(
21:00:16  <DDR> (yeah, that required a bit of [canadian] railroading history to make sense :P )
21:00:46  <nat_> explain?
21:02:58  <DDR> Ok, I mean 'american', not 'canadian'-- here's the link.
21:03:21  <DDR> Ah well, not much difference.
21:05:36  <nat_> oh
21:05:48  <nat_> it would be nice if you could place office buildings in cities
21:06:22  <DDR> You can. :P You can fund the construction of new buildings, but it costs a lot.
21:06:42  <nat_> they could either lobby (slowly spend lots of money to raise the towns attitude over a long period of time) or administer (lower maintenance costs of everything by a small amount)
21:06:52  <nat_> I mean office buildings for your company
21:06:57  <nat_> not just the HQ
21:07:11  <DDR> Oh. Yeah, that'd be interesting.
21:07:40  <DDR> Planting trees seems a little strange after the first full-blown forest.
21:09:48  <frosch123> mayans were wrong. grfcrawler was not shut down at the end of 2011
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21:29:12  <Terkhen> good night
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21:39:35  <nat_> why is the macarana in this game?
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21:52:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23719 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix [FS#4930]: extraction of music packs failed
21:52:41  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: is the 'official' scale length/24x12 or 24x12.5 now?
21:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> 12
21:53:08  <Rubidium> *sigh*
21:54:23  <Elukka> alright
21:55:34  <planetmaker> what makes your heart so heavy, dear Rubidium?
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21:56:42  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the words "officials" and "scale" being used in a sentence without "no" or "none"
21:56:53  <planetmaker> :-)
21:56:57  <planetmaker> yeah
21:57:07  <planetmaker> well. concerning a certain set that may make sense
21:57:13  <planetmaker> concerning openttd: certainly not
22:00:40  <Elukka> it's related to cets in particular, so it makes sense here
22:03:11  <Rubidium> a track is 5 pixels wide, a tile is 8 pixels high. Assuming Dutch rail that's respectively 1.435m and >5m
22:03:37  <Rubidium> not really up-to-scale I'd say
22:04:02  <Elukka> yes but my question was related to the length of rail vehicles within a newgrf where it's pretty important
22:08:06  <nat_> argh why can I never get signals to work
22:08:28  <nat_> two trains count as being on the same block even though the way the tracks are arranged they could never intersect
22:08:42  <nat_> without making greater than 90deg turns
22:09:44  <Elukka> are you using path signals?
22:09:58  <Elukka> if not, use them, watch it work
22:10:56  <nat_> I do
22:11:00  <nat_> oh path signals?
22:11:03  <nat_> I use presignals
22:11:08  <nat_> I don't understand path signals
22:11:28  <nat_> heck even the enter-exit-combo presignals confuse me
22:11:36  <Elukka> path signals are simpler than that
22:11:37  <nat_> it dosn't help that they all look similar.
22:11:48  <Elukka> for the most part they're just normal signals but they let multiple trains to the same signal block if their paths don't cross
22:11:49  <nat_> is there a good tutorial?
22:11:56  <nat_> oh
22:12:31  <nat_> what I /try/ to do is have a two way track. then have a station shunted to the side of that
22:12:33  <SpComb> they're quite different
22:12:43  <Elukka> put them only in positions where your trains can safely wait (ie not block a junction), so however long your longest train is, put them that distance away from a junction
22:12:48  <SpComb> well, in that how they reseve track
22:13:02  <SpComb> on the trailing side
22:13:03  <Elukka> nat, that's probably a lot easier with path signals
22:13:04  <nat_> the station gets 1 bay for each different train visiting, in the chance they all decide they want to load at once.
22:13:18  <SpComb> i.e immediately before a junction, and a train length after
22:15:02  <nat_> is there a good tutorial?
22:24:05  <V453000> just note one thing, pre-signals might not be as simple, but at the same time offer much more possibilities and trust me that they are the "better" signals in the end ;)
22:24:58  <nat_> shit, time for work
22:25:10  <nat_> argh, I havn't finished lunch yet!
22:25:17  <nat_> I might just bike In i guess.
22:25:50  <Elukka> path signals are the best general signal, though
22:26:03  <Elukka> easiest to learn, i'd say, too
22:26:53  <V453000> easiest, no doubt, but they also offer much less than pre-signals
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22:27:20  <nat_> well what am I doing wrong with my presignals?
22:27:55  <Elukka> i haven't really found an awful lot of use for presignals
22:28:02  <V453000> what problem do you have nat_ ?
22:28:06  <nat_> how do I take screenshots?
22:28:31  <V453000> Elukka: with realistic network there probably isnt any indeed, but lets not get to discuss what is realistic and what not
22:29:34  <Elukka> not sure what signal types have to do with realism
22:30:12  <nat_> is there a screeshot key?
22:30:20  <V453000> ctrl S nat_
22:30:40  <V453000> Elukka: quite a lot, with realistic whatever people tend to hate "extra tracks" just for signal logic
22:30:50  <Elukka> ah, yes
22:30:59  <Elukka> i don't really do that, admittedly for aesthetics but also because i can't be arsed :P
22:31:03  <V453000> and 99% "realistic" people use only PBS since they dont need to bother with any signal logic
22:31:18  <Elukka> signal logic tracks aren't something a new player learning signals should try to get into, though
22:31:30  <nat_> I hate how a train station will quickly become larger than the city it services
22:31:44  <nat_> I'd like to see a transport game where train tracks only take up half a tile
22:31:46  <SpComb> if it's inefficient
22:31:52  <nat_> and a two way track is the same width as a road.
22:31:58  <nat_> like in real life.
22:31:59  <SpComb> or the town very small
22:32:08  <Elukka> ideally, two tracks would fit within a tile
22:32:19  <Elukka> at the current scale they would, the game just doesn't support it
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22:32:45  <V453000> Elukka: certainly nothing a new player should learn immediately, but using the appropriate signals is vital. In general, PBS lets you use everything "meh whatever that works somehow" while pre-signals make you think about stuff
22:32:53  <V453000> speaking very generally
22:33:04  <Elukka> yes, so PBS are the best general signals particularly while learning the game
22:33:07  <SpComb> path signals are aweeesome
22:33:11  <Elukka> i think they should be treated as the 'basic' signal, rather than the actual basic signals
22:33:24  <V453000> I disagree, basically because of the reasons I said
22:34:03  <nat_>
22:34:09  <nat_> my station layouts
22:34:11  <Elukka> most players never even play the game so far as to build networks where something like signal logic tracks are relevant
22:34:11  <V453000> and from my own experience I have seen, people are lazy. Once they start using PBS, they will keep it that way. But for playing "better" and making their networks really more interesting, pre-signals are a must.
22:34:16  <Elukka> it's not something to concern new players with
22:34:32  <V453000> signal logic tracks dont matter, ignore that :)
22:35:00  <SpComb> V453000: one defines "interesting" differently
22:35:10  <nat_> in theoy these stations should be scalable, and trains should be able to drive past them without stoping
22:35:17  <nat_> but in practice my signals fuck me over all the time
22:35:19  <Elukka> saying 'well there are these easy signals and they work well but you shouldn't use them because then you'll be a bad player' seems like a good way to turn off new players from learning the game
22:35:25  <SpComb> at least for me, "interesting" means "it grew organically to become this", and Path signals really help with that
22:35:29  <V453000> for sure, I define it as interesting = having some idea in it, which putting PBS definitely doesnt have
22:35:46  <SpComb> nat_: what are those signals, combo presignals?
22:35:52  <nat_> Yes
22:36:00  <V453000> no, entry signals
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22:36:08  <nat_> is there a good way to have more than one line feed into and out of a station with this method?
22:36:15  <SpComb> why :/
22:36:19  <nat_> entry, exit, and combo signals.
22:36:33  <SpComb> you've got weird signal layouts there
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22:36:51  <nat_> because I like big networks that you could in theory travel between branches if you ever needed to (you won't)
22:37:16  <SpComb> change them to path signals and remove half of them, and it'll probably flow better :)
22:37:24  <Elukka> path signals are very forgiving in that you can have rails cross other rails as you like and it'll work
22:37:30  <nat_> how do I AI proof this?
22:37:31  <Elukka> it might slow things down, but it'll work
22:37:47  <SpComb> V453000: plus, path signals let you do stuff like bidirectional track/platforms that aren't possible otherwise
22:37:52  <SpComb> V453000: way more flexible
22:38:07  <V453000> it is hard to explain
22:38:20  <Elukka> in a discussion about basic signaling, presignals are irrelevant these days
22:38:21  <nat_> where would i place them?
22:38:23  <V453000> but to be simple, I say PBS lets you do more stuff with less brain power
22:38:35  <SpComb> fine with me, I don't play to signal
22:38:43  <Elukka> yes and you don't want to bother new players with complex systems that aren't necessary at their stage of the game
22:38:52  <SpComb> nat_: at entrances to junctions, and exits from stations
22:39:03  <V453000> but that is the thing :) new players wont bother
22:39:06  <V453000> will they bother later?: )
22:39:11  <Elukka> they might
22:39:14  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23720 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix/Feature [FS#4935]: show the script debug window also when the game script crashes
22:39:15  <nat_> any other places?
22:39:19  <SpComb> nat_: and remove the ones between the tracks and the station
22:39:21  <SpComb> nat_: nope
22:39:21  <V453000> in the past when there was no PBS, you had to learn signals and it made you think
22:39:26  <Elukka> or they might not play the game at all if they get the idea that it takes a lot of boring reading of wikis to learn 4 types of signal
22:39:26  * Mazur learned signals first thing.
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22:39:30  <Elukka> this is not a thing that is appealing to most people
22:39:50  <V453000> openttd isnt for "most people" anyway
22:39:52  <SpComb> nat_: you can also have the station be bidirectional if you just place exiting path signals on both ends
22:40:09  <V453000> also, why would you read a stupid wiki for signals, it is all written in the signal gui
22:40:11  <SpComb> nat_: and then straighten out the tracks to get rid of all those extra curves around
22:40:46  <Elukka> okay, look
22:41:14  <Elukka> there are super enthusiasts like you (maybe even me) who learn every facet of all five types of signal
22:41:24  <nat_> like this?
22:41:27  <Elukka> most players, however, don't care, and they particularly don't care when they're concerned with learning the basics of the game
22:41:41  <V453000> that isnt the point Elukka
22:41:48  <SpComb> nat_: the NE-track is right, the SW track wrong
22:41:50  <Elukka> if they become enthusiasts and play hundreds of hours they can learn it on their own accord
22:42:11  * Rubidium wonders what those people are that know every facet of all six signal types ;)
22:42:12  <SpComb> nat_: by "junction" I mean "track tile leading to tile with more than one track on it"
22:42:25  <nat_> oh no a train just got stuck
22:42:39  <nat_> entering from NE, it wont enter at all
22:42:47  <nat_> just stops and stares at the signal
22:42:52  <SpComb> nat_: so just move the signal on the northern track to the other side of the junction
22:42:53  <Rubidium> SpComb: bad definition ;)
22:43:28  <nat_> it
22:43:30  <V453000> besides, I would say PBS is much less intentional for a new player, but that might be just a subjective opinion
22:43:32  <SpComb> nat_: and add normal-not-one-way path signals to both ends of the station, leading out from the station
22:43:55  <Rubidium> parallel diagonal tracks have tiles with two tracks on it, but they would never conflict in any way
22:44:22  <SpComb> nat_: oh wait, uh, the north and south signal are right, the east and west ones wrong
22:44:29  <nat_> hmm?
22:44:43  <Elukka> frankly, the attitude that new users must learn everything optimally to start using the program plagues a lot of open source development, and simply means most people do not wish to use those programs
22:44:44  <nat_> I changed it to non one way and it still wont work
22:44:54  <nat_> Elukka^
22:44:55  <Elukka> it's very user-unfriendly
22:44:56  <SpComb> the train has to have somewhere to go
22:45:10  <nat_> it does
22:45:11  <SpComb> if you don't have signals on the station, it might not be able to do that
22:46:05  <SpComb> e.g. train coming from north won't be able to reserve itself a path through the station
22:46:09  <SpComb> since it would cross itself
22:46:23  <SpComb> you need signals on the station
22:46:46  <SpComb> train stops at station -> signal right after station
22:46:52  <nat_> oh now it seems to work
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22:47:17  <Rubidium> Elukka: with path signals 'optimal' usually means 'right'
22:47:53  <Elukka> if i'm teaching someone the game, as i have to a few friends of mine, i tell them the one basic rule of placing path signals and off they go building rail networks
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22:48:04  <SpComb> train stops before junction -> signal right before junction
22:48:14  <Elukka> it doesn't matter if it's optimal, it just has to work
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22:48:55  <SpComb> I played with pre-signals in TTDPatch before OpenTTD even existed, and I don't need them anymore now with OpenTTD's real path signals :)
22:49:12  <SpComb> for anything
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22:49:53  <SpComb> although TTDPatch's rule-based signals were kind of neat
22:50:40  <Elukka> the way i'd do it is rename 'path signal' to 'signal', give it a prominent button, and place the rest under the header 'advanced signals'
22:50:46  <Elukka> rename the current 'signal' to 'block signal' maybe
22:51:20  <Rubidium> the path signal is already the default signal
22:51:28  <Rubidium> so click on the signal and build the thing
22:51:31  <Elukka> won't lose any utility for hardcore players, more user friendly for newbies
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22:51:34  <Elukka> true, and that's good
22:51:51  <Elukka> we still get a lot of people coming here with signal questions and often the answer is 'use path signals', which they might not even have noticed exist
22:51:55  <Elukka> or they think they're an advanced, complex thing
22:52:06  <Elukka> which they don't want to touch because they think it's for advanced players
22:52:22  <Rubidium> most of the time they're just long time players
22:52:29  <Rubidium> or got openttd + configuration file from someone else
22:53:01  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23721 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix (r23070): reading memory of a temporary (already deconstructed) object is invalid
22:53:02  <SpComb> nat_: what does it look like now?
22:53:36  <nat_> Just put normal signals on the entrance and exit to the platforms
22:53:40  <nat_> works fine now
22:53:44  <nat_> gotta go to work now though
22:53:54  <nat_> damn buses
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22:54:06  <SpComb> mixing path and block signals?
22:54:07  <SpComb> uh oh
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23:03:45  <__ln__> are there any national parks or such between or near New York and Toronto?  (besides Niagara Falls)
23:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> how many do you need?
23:04:42  <__ln__> one would be a start
23:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> <- ?
23:07:23  *** Mucht [] has joined #openttd
23:08:03  <__ln__> cool, that's a start
23:08:26  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: which type of era I log wagon would be good to start with?
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23:09:29  <Elukka>
23:09:44  <Elukka> this is what comes to mind, but i don't know how it'd work in game or if it's a 'typical' one
23:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i think this one needs some special template magic
23:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> because the pairs should look like single wagons without load, and as one wagon with load
23:10:32  <Elukka> yeah
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23:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, that's about what it should look like
23:11:13  <Elukka> gonna have to guess the length unless you know figures
23:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the stakes would be removed if refitted for wood (logs) transport
23:11:19  <Elukka> interesting
23:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the length is in the tracking table
23:11:27  <Elukka> well that's the easiest sprite to draw then :P
23:11:29  <Elukka> what's it called there?
23:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "Langholzwagen" or something
23:11:55  <Elukka> alright
23:12:14  <Elukka> want me to do the individual wagons (apparently they were used on their own too) on separate templates or do something weird and put them on a single one?
23:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- that's what it looks like empty, without stakes
23:12:38  <Elukka> what's that thing in the middle?
23:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> do single wagons
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23:13:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that's some thing that keeps the logs rotatable around the axis
23:13:07  <Elukka> ooh
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23:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- looks somewhat like this when loaded
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23:20:16  <Elukka> i remember seeing these in mÀrklin and fleischmann catalogs as a kid :P
23:21:28  <Eddi|zuHause> basically each wagon works like a bogie underneath the logs
23:21:53  <Elukka> oh yeah, this is how i remember seeing them
23:21:54  <Elukka>
23:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> if not refitted to logs, they could be used like normal stake wagons
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23:25:34  <Elukka> were the really short ones used as normal stake wagons too?
23:25:59  <Elukka> hm. possibly not
23:26:19  <Elukka> "Whereas Prussia held onto its short swivelling bolster cars for a long time, other railway administrations were quick to acquire longer vehicles. Bavaria put cars of class 337 into service as early as 1883, which had a wheelbase of 3650 mm. The advantage of these was that the cars could also be used individually. The DRG therefore added them all to its stock as Hw 'Regensburg'."
23:26:49  <Elukka> i think the longer one will be better to draw first since it has more uses
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23:27:36  <Elukka>
23:27:38  <Elukka> something like that
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23:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's about what i thought
23:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but iirc we have 3 generations to play with :)
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