Log for #openttd on 13th January 2012:
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02:14:54  <Grootie> !password
02:14:54  *** Grootie was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
02:15:58  <valhallasw> :D
02:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> ooh... always funny when that happens :)
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04:04:37  <Td> newb here: Just installed and generate a map but cant build anything beside roads, what did I do wrong?
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04:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ...
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08:08:29  <dihedral> greetings
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08:57:31  <retro|cz> Can anyone provide some good tweaked dedicated server config ?
08:57:38  <retro|cz> I just need some start.
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08:59:38  <planetmaker> moin
09:03:30  <retro|cz> planetmaker, ?
09:04:32  <planetmaker> I could have said 'hello'
09:08:21  <tokai|mdlx> moinmoin
09:09:16  <tokai|mdlx> planetmaker: or "dobry den!" :)
09:09:49  <planetmaker> :-) But that's ... geographically much different ;-)
09:11:17  <planetmaker> but then I'd go for 좋은 밀읎예요 straight away
09:11:22  <tokai|mdlx> planetmaker: But retro|cz probably would have understood it immediately - assuming the cz suffix of his nick name refers to the fact that he's from Czechia. :)
09:11:41  <retro|cz> yup
09:11:44  <planetmaker> true.
09:12:30  <tokai|mdlx> planetmaker: Very formal. :)
09:12:52  <planetmaker> yes ;-)
09:13:22  <planetmaker> Let's say my Korean is not good enough to use the proper informal words
09:13:34  <tokai|mdlx> Not sure how the Koreans talk on the Internet. Is formal language used there in normal forums, chats, etc.? :)
09:13:52  <tokai|mdlx> No idea about that. :)
09:13:53  <planetmaker> not too sure either
09:14:28  <planetmaker> I'm basically stuck at "starting in the attempt to teach myself" :-P
09:14:44  <tokai|mdlx> I tried that with Japanese one.. failed :)
09:14:50  <tokai|mdlx> one=once
09:15:09  <planetmaker> :-)
09:15:32  <tokai|mdlx> planetmaker: Best is to watch a lot content (movies, TV, etc.) in the native language. At some point you'll get quite a lot automatically. :)
09:15:50  <planetmaker> true
09:16:16  <planetmaker> But it requires to have at least *some* more vocabulary and grammar at hand than I do
09:17:14  <tokai|mdlx> It comes with time. As a little child you learned a language too w/o having vocabulary or grammer. :)
09:19:01  <tokai|mdlx> The problem with age is that we try to convert the language into our mother language. Which makes it much harder to learn a language, I think. Your brain needs to store connections between foreign words/ structures and your own native language rather than simply associating things with pictures, sounds, feelings, etc.
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12:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> <- that's one of the most useless besides-the-point replies i have seen in a long time...
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12:50:19  <V453000> is it?
12:51:18  <__ln__> the same kind of reply I would have expected to get on this channel some years ago.
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14:28:02  <Belugas> hello
14:29:30  <iddqd> hi Belugas
14:29:34  <iddqd> what’s up máán
14:33:38  <Belugas> the sun
14:33:46  <Belugas> and hello iddqd
14:53:37  <retro|cz> What setting is for allow to build all industries in network game ?
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14:53:42  <retro|cz> I can't find it :(
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15:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> retro|cz: economy->construction method for primary industries->like secondary industries (or similar=
15:06:45  <retro|cz> Eddi|zuHause, i found
15:06:47  <retro|cz> thanks
15:06:55  <retro|cz> I meant in openttd.cfg :)
15:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> well, search for similar names :)
16:11:31  <Terkhen> hello
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17:06:01  * Alberth waves hi to all
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17:06:48  <cassy2012> Come webcam chat with me guys @
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17:16:08  <Belugas> chat on a webcam?  why?  i like chatting with IRC!
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17:17:13  <Alberth> to practice your sign language perhaps?
17:17:18  <Alberth> hi Belugas :)
17:27:13  <Belugas> hehe
17:27:21  <Belugas> hi sir Alberth :)
17:29:07  <frosch123>,1518,808986,00.html <- [german] lol @ "correction" at the end of the message
17:35:01  <planetmaker> :-D
17:35:45  <planetmaker> I saw once a trailer detatch from a lorry and roll over the intersection. Was a bit scary to see the trailer just roll over it...
17:36:00  <planetmaker> luckily it was neither fast nor did it hit anyone or anything expensive
17:36:06  <planetmaker> just a few stones
17:36:10  <andythenorth> BANDIT
17:36:14  <andythenorth> will offer that feature
17:36:15  <andythenorth> :P
17:36:19  <planetmaker> :-P
17:36:31  <planetmaker> refit: trailer w/o lorry and driver?
17:42:24  <Alberth> who needs a truck when you can use just a trailer :)
17:44:18  <__ln__> i bet the carbon emissions of a trailer are much lower than those of a lorry.
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18:16:37  <Alberth> not when they explode when driving off a cliff :p
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18:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23794 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
18:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 5 changes by Tranzistors
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18:56:16  <FreeTraffic> Free Traffic To Your Sites or Blogs From
18:56:18  *** FreeTraffic [~freetraff@] has left #openttd []
18:59:59  <planetmaker> @ban *!*@
19:02:17  <frosch123> dorpsgek doesn't like you?
19:02:22  <frosch123> @ban *!*@
19:02:30  <frosch123> hmm, he does not like me either :(
19:03:30  <planetmaker> sure that it acknowledges a ban of a person not in the channel?
19:04:58  <__ln__> regarding the bus segregation thread; how about being modern and only segregating males and females?
19:05:13  <frosch123> @whoami
19:05:13  <DorpsGek> frosch123: frosch
19:05:22  <frosch123> hmm, i thought it would
19:06:17  <planetmaker> @ban
19:06:29  <planetmaker> hm... somehow one can get the list. But I forgot
19:06:37  <frosch123> @help ban
19:06:37  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: There is no command "ban".
19:06:41  <frosch123> :p
19:06:49  <frosch123> @help unban
19:06:49  <DorpsGek> frosch123: (unban [<channel>] [<hostmask>]) -- Unbans <hostmask> on <channel>. If <hostmask> is not given, unbans any hostmask currently banned on <channel> that matches your current hostmask. Especially useful for unbanning yourself when you get unexpectedly (or accidentally) banned from the channel. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
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19:27:02  <George> Hi. I've got a report about crashes of OTTD when building an ECS industry. I created a report
19:27:27  <Rubidium> that user changed NewGRFs in-game
19:29:04  <George> I started a new game, cheated the money, builded a new farm. the same result
19:29:38  <planetmaker> hm, Rubidium, will it be an idea to also save the grf parameters to the crash log?
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19:30:20  * Rubidium ponders disabling "interpret literal" mode
19:30:20  <George> uploaded new game test crash
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19:33:14  <Rubidium> none of the ECS newgrfs are on bananas, so where does one get them?
19:33:30  <Rubidium> especially the one named "test.grf"
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19:56:41  <_mj> quick question: some month ago there was a function called 'VehicleMove(Vehicle*, bool)', it is apparently gone. is there some replacement for it ?
19:57:06  <_mj> doesn't seem up-to-date
19:57:44  <Yexo> TrueBrain: ^^ could you fix :)
19:57:55  <Yexo> _mj: no idea, what should it do exactly?
19:58:16  <Yexo> there are TrainController and similar functions
19:58:19  <_mj> um, I used it to stop a newly created train :)
19:58:34  <Yexo> a newly created train should be stopped already
19:58:50  <_mj> I think it was there just to be sure
19:58:58  <Yexo> that was almost certainly wrong
19:59:14  <_mj> I just leave it out then
20:01:09  <_mj> there is really a lot that has changes over this time, I will need to find some fixes for my code
20:06:52  <Rubidium> that function was renamed to be more clear what it did: update (the) viewport
20:08:50  <_mj> Ah thanks
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20:18:22  <George> Rubidium: > none of the ECS newgrfs are on bananas, so where does one get them? -
20:19:14  <George> Rubidium> especially the one named "test.grf" - - i do not see any test.grf here
20:21:00  <andythenorth> eve
20:21:03  <andythenorth> ning
20:24:17  <iddqd> eve
20:24:19  <iddqd> nong
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20:28:57  <cornjuliox> when it comes to signals, just exactly how do you define a 'block'?
20:29:14  <cornjuliox> the space between two signals?
20:29:38  <Yexo> all rails that are connected to eachother without a signal in between
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20:30:26  <andythenorth> Yexo: I've been thinking about NML + macro expansion...
20:30:40  <andythenorth> CPP is quite clunky for the cases I've been finding
20:30:52  <andythenorth> it was very good for nfo
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20:30:59  <planetmaker> cornjuliox:
20:31:05  <planetmaker> hello andythenorth
20:31:08  <Wolf01> hello
20:31:10  <andythenorth> hello
20:31:14  <planetmaker> hello Wolf01
20:31:25  <Yexo> andythenorth: there is nothing in nml that says you have to use CPP
20:31:29  <andythenorth> I know
20:31:36  <andythenorth> but it's the conventional approach so far
20:31:38  <Yexo> but I'm curious what cases you've found?
20:31:48  <andythenorth> with NML we need for unique identifiers for switches...which demands string concatenation...which CPP sucks at
20:32:07  <planetmaker> THIS_ID(general_ID) works fine
20:32:12  <andythenorth> with nfo I solved a lot of cases because I could repeat action 2 blocks with same ID, then branch
20:32:18  <Yexo> that's true. In an ideal world however you wouldn't need to duplicate such switches
20:32:21  <planetmaker> when you define THIS_ID as variadic macro in the vehicles or industry's file
20:32:29  <andythenorth> planetmaker: true, but that's limited
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20:33:20  <andythenorth> this for example is clunky :)
20:34:51  <planetmaker> yes. But you're doing things twice there, if you #define the file to be included
20:35:11  <andythenorth> there might be a better way yes
20:35:18  <andythenorth> but I couldn't figure it out
20:35:49  <cornjuliox> so, based on what i'm reading here would it be safe to conclude that a 'block' consists of signals connected together by track, regardless of any impossible turns (e.g 90 degrees)?
20:35:52  <andythenorth> I figured out alternatives, but not better
20:35:58  <planetmaker> the template would use switch(FEAT_RV, THIS_ID(template_switch_name), var) { ... }
20:36:11  <planetmaker> cornjuliox: basically yes
20:36:20  <planetmaker> it may even be different track types
20:36:28  <planetmaker> like maglev + rail
20:36:41  <cornjuliox> ok. so i'm beginning to understand all this
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20:37:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that would require #ifdefs around the switches (I think)
20:37:50  <planetmaker> why?
20:37:54  <andythenorth> or additional switches using advanced varaction2 + CPP to put in a constant
20:38:03  <cornjuliox> and the big difference between presignals and block signals is that presignals are green/red based on the status of any combo/exit signals in the block, regardless of whether or not the trains can actually get to those signals, and block signals just check if the space immediately in front of it is free, right?
20:38:52  <Yexo> andythenorth: it's often easier if you write the complete nml (without CPP) for one or two cases and try to template that
20:38:57  <andythenorth> or I could use #ifdefs to set a string, depending on the value of another define
20:38:59  <Yexo> rather than write a generic template directly
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20:39:39  <Yexo> as yes, I agree the example you showed is clumsy
20:39:46  <planetmaker> yes. I think we (I) sometimes did that mistake with FIRS to not follow that advice, Yexo
20:40:03  <andythenorth> I'm starting to conclude CPP is limited
20:40:14  <andythenorth> or rather...not 100% appropriate to this case
20:40:25  <andythenorth> MB pm-ed me offering m4
20:40:38  <Yexo> you can use m4 as preprocessor for nml
20:40:40  <andythenorth> but another developer I know said m4 should be avoided at all costs
20:40:45  <Yexo> or for nfo or course,using mb's m4nfo
20:41:03  <Yexo> m4 is definitely a lot stronger than cpp
20:41:11  <planetmaker> Look at it and use it, if you find it useful
20:41:22  <Yexo> it's less used, more people know cpp than m4, but personally I think it's quite good
20:41:41  <planetmaker> from what I saw it has a lot of potential
20:41:46  <Yexo> at one point I wondered whether to include m4 as default preprocessor in nml, but some people (rightfully!) talked me out of it
20:41:47  <andythenorth> is it trivial or painful to adapt the makefile to it?
20:42:04  <Yexo> should be quite easy to adapt the makefile
20:42:11  <planetmaker> relatively easy, I guess
20:42:19  <andythenorth> I like CPP personally
20:42:33  <andythenorth> but it's making for very...lengthy...code
20:42:34  <Prof_Frink> m4 is better for getting to Wales.
20:42:42  <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: I just proved that :P
20:45:24  <andythenorth> are there alternatives to m4?  It looks very full featured
20:45:30  <andythenorth> which scares me a little
20:47:38  <Yexo>
20:47:43  <Yexo> doesn't list much
20:47:54  <andythenorth> hmm
20:47:57  <andythenorth> pyexpander
20:48:07  <andythenorth> basically I want to be able to write arbitrary python :P
20:48:23  <andythenorth> and have it return a result to be included
20:48:32  <andythenorth> much like I can in TAL (for the web)
20:48:47  <andythenorth> but this might be bad for reasons I haven't thought of
20:48:50  <andythenorth> or impossible
20:49:24  <andythenorth> using a ${expression} syntax or similar
20:50:01  <andythenorth> hmm
20:50:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth: adding python scripts is relatively easy, too...
20:50:12  <andythenorth> pyexpander has loops :)
20:50:30  <andythenorth> loops would make for efficient, but complicated templating
20:50:37  <andythenorth> loops that build code are hard to debug :P
20:50:52  <andythenorth> but would handle things like arbitrary number of trailing vehicles in consist
20:51:10  <Yexo> you first have to be able to write normal nml code to handle that
20:51:19  <Yexo> if you've done that you can find a way to template it
20:51:27  <Yexo> using pyexpander, m4 or even cpp if you wish
20:52:13  <andythenorth> normal nml code can't handle that - not meaningfully
20:52:22  <andythenorth> I can write nml that won't explode in that case, but it's not useful
20:52:41  <Yexo> if you can't write it in normal nml, you can't write it using a preprocessor either
20:52:54  <andythenorth> why?
20:52:59  <Yexo> not that with "can't" I mean when it's really impossible, bulky nml code doesn't matter
20:53:12  <Yexo> because a preprocessor doesn't add any new features, it only makes it easier to use the existing ones
20:53:28  <Yexo> just like everything you can do in nml you can do in nfo too
20:53:32  <Yexo> it's the same here
20:53:41  <Yexo> everything you can do with "nml+preprocessor" you can do with only nml too
20:54:03  <andythenorth> so maybe I am looking for a code generator, not a preprocessor
20:54:10  <andythenorth> but I don't trust code generation
20:54:29  <andythenorth> ;)
20:54:30  <Yexo> the same holds there: everything you can with with code generator x (that generates nml code), you can also do with plain nml
20:55:02  <andythenorth> plain nml + lots of find + replace when you want to maintain things ;)
20:55:15  <andythenorth> versus trying to understand wtf the code generator is doing when you want to maintain things
20:55:21  <andythenorth> potato / potato
20:55:43  <andythenorth> I could definitely solve all the cases I have with CPP + a lot of switches
20:55:49  <andythenorth> just seems clunky
20:56:25  <Yexo> yes, it's clunky, but you could do it
20:56:38  <andythenorth> I'm intrigued if BANDIT code makes sense to others
20:56:44  <andythenorth>
20:56:44  <Yexo> the "clunky"-ness you can (possible) avoid by using a good preprocessor or a code generator
20:57:37  <andythenorth> I'm also intrigued if I will understand what I did in 6 months :P
20:57:50  <Yexo> I think you're over-using defines there
20:58:03  <andythenorth> I could use less
20:58:06  <planetmaker> over-engineered
20:58:35  <Yexo> why not directly include  item{property{ cost: 10; } } in each vehicle .-nml file instead of defining "#DEFINE THIS_BUY_COST 10" and including a file that uses that define just to set a property?
20:59:01  <planetmaker> yes
20:59:32  <Yexo> imo that's only a good idea if you need to use one define in multiple places
20:59:46  <Yexo> like you use THIS_SMOKE for setting a property and somewhere in a callback result
20:59:54  <Yexo> in that case it's used to avoid duplication of one value
21:01:20  <andythenorth> over-abstraction
21:01:22  <andythenorth> what else?
21:04:51  <andythenorth> brb
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21:26:18  <TheDude> hello there
21:27:06  <TheDude> can I have a quick question for developers? what is this new message "your computer took too long to join" popping up when joining server?
21:27:26  <planetmaker> have a guess
21:27:36  <TheDude> yeah, well, is 5 second too long?
21:27:42  <planetmaker> download too slow. Or your computer too slow to catch up with the game after download
21:28:17  <TheDude> I guess openttd doesnt require more than 8Mbit, and 2GHz computer, and it kicks me after 5 seconds of joining
21:28:26  <TheDude> is it possible, that server is slow?
21:28:27  <Rubidium> TheDude: the default is 15 seconds
21:28:55  <TheDude> still, I can see map after 5 seconds, and right after joining it kicks me with that message
21:29:08  <Rubidium> so if it's 5 seconds, then the server owner has (as far as I can see in my magic crystal ball) reduced the value
21:29:13  <planetmaker> servers can modify that ^
21:29:29  <TheDude> I am the server owner :-)
21:29:29  <Ammler> are you sure, your openttd process get the whole 100% of your 2GHz?
21:29:58  <TheDude> is it that magic new value? max_download_time = 10000 :-)
21:30:15  <__ln__> is that 2GHz of AMD or Intel?
21:30:17  <TheDude> it was 1000 on default, but I increased it, dont know what units it is
21:30:36  <planetmaker> @calc 1000 / 74
21:30:36  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 13.5135135135
21:30:44  <Ammler> I would guess, it does autokick slow clients
21:30:48  <TheDude> ah, frames, ok, thanks for info
21:30:55  <planetmaker> @calc 10000 / 74
21:30:55  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 135.135135135
21:32:11  <TheDude> do you want to try to connect that server? :-)
21:33:46  <Ammler> TheDude: you could also try to connect another server
21:33:55  <TheDude> that of course works
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21:35:07  <Ammler> TheDude: check the setting on the server console, maybe you have something else as 10000 there
21:37:29  <Yexo> TheDude: what version does your server run?
21:37:44  <TheDude> 1.2.0b2
21:42:59  <Yexo> TheDude: and which server is it?
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21:45:58  <TheDude>
21:46:18  <Yexo> and where do I find those ecs grfs? they're not on bananas
21:46:37  <TheDude> ah, yes, true
21:47:19  <TheDude> should be here
21:48:44  <Yexo> I can join almost instantly and am not kicked out
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21:50:38  <TheDude> really? ok
21:50:49  <TheDude> thanks for trying that
21:53:01  <Yexo> hmm, "connection lost"
21:53:05  <Yexo> but that might be my connection
21:55:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23795 /branches/1.1/ (21 files in 5 dirs): (log message trimmed)
21:55:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
21:55:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Make default timeouts for certain network states lower and configurable [FS#4955] (r23764)
21:55:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Check whether a water tile is really empty when overbuilding it with an object [FS#4956] (r23763)
21:55:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Missing locking causing crash in extreme case when being in the MP lobby [FS#4938] (r23752)
21:55:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Clear the backed up orders of a removed station as well, otherwise one
21:55:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: could create orders to a station that was never in the original backupped
21:55:18  <TheDude> I quit the server
21:55:27  <TheDude> ok, I set map to 64x64
21:55:55  <TheDude> still it kicks me for joining too long, after to 2 seconds, when it is set to 130 sec in cfg
21:56:13  <TheDude> but if it joinable, perhaps it is indeed problem on my side
21:56:58  <Yexo> I can still join it
21:57:10  <TheDude> ok
21:57:15  <TheDude> I cant
21:57:27  <TheDude> my friend cant either
22:00:13  <TheDude> I am in, good
22:05:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23796 /branches/1.1/ (56 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Backport from trunk r23698
22:06:12  <planetmaker> and what was the culprit, TheDude?
22:06:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23797 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 6 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: 1.1.5
22:06:42  <TheDude> actually, I set map back to 512x512 and cant join again
22:06:54  <planetmaker> slow connection?
22:06:57  <TheDude> nn
22:07:00  <TheDude> connections is fine
22:07:17  <Rubidium> smells like not pausing on join
22:07:27  <TheDude> maybe slower notebook, 2Ghz, but few years old
22:07:41  <TheDude> but I got that message with my new computer also, so not really sure
22:07:50  <TheDude> yes, no pausing on join is true
22:08:01  <planetmaker> success maybe with pause?
22:08:23  <TheDude> maybe, but it is on purpose and I dont want to change it
22:09:11  <Yexo> I can still join without any problems
22:09:31  <Yexo> still only 360kb or so
22:09:41  <TheDude> what is the difference between this new settings and the max_join_time anyway?
22:10:06  <TheDude> yy, I join too, but it kicks me right after I see map
22:14:10  *** Mucht [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:15:58  <Alberth> you are too far behind after downloading the map perhaps
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22:18:19  <Rubidium> are there *any* modifications to the server or client?
22:18:52  <TheDude> server is modified
22:19:08  <TheDude> but the same modification is very well joinable on another server
22:19:13  <TheDude> client is unpatched
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22:19:48  <Yexo> I suspect it's something on your end as I can join it (with unmodified client) without any problems
22:20:49  <TheDude> yy, I agree, it seems so
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22:22:34  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:23:32  * Rubidium can join without any problems as well
22:24:46  <TheDude> on the other hand, joning 1.1.4 of the same modified server is no problem
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22:34:53  <andythenorth> hmm
22:35:03  <andythenorth> are developer-defined bitmasks appropriate for RVs?
22:35:09  <andythenorth> as trains have them already
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22:51:39  <andythenorth> Yexo: I guess there's no way an nml identifier could be locally scoped, i.e. to just part of the nml file (with possibility of being redefined)?
22:52:50  <Yexo> it's possible to allow reuse of identifiers (like in nfo)
22:53:07  <Yexo> however I don't plan on doing so, since it makes it a lot harder to find bugs when you're unaccustomed to it
22:53:35  <planetmaker> oh, I'd hate that, tbh
22:53:42  <andythenorth> hmm
22:53:56  <planetmaker> unique identifiers make it easy to find stuff
22:53:57  <andythenorth> I could segment the project and generate nfo for each vehicle
22:54:00  <andythenorth> then combine the nfo
22:54:08  <andythenorth> no idea how :P
22:54:18  <andythenorth> certainly more complicated than concatenation of identifiers
22:54:32  <planetmaker> I really fail to see where the variadic macro don't help you with the uniqueness requirement
22:54:41  <Yexo> what's so bad with the current THIS_ID() solution?
22:55:32  <andythenorth> there's nothing wrong with it
22:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a pretty genious solution, actually :)
22:56:56  <andythenorth> it will concatenate multiple args in a single define?
22:57:03  * andythenorth thinks it will
22:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that does not work
22:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you need multiple macros for that to work
22:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> like:
22:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> #define VEH_ID1(...) __VA_ARGS ## id
22:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> #define VEH_ID(...) VEH_ID1(__VA_ARGS__)
22:59:33  <Yexo> why not something like #define THIS_ID(id) VEH_A_ ## id
22:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and then like VEH_ID(JOIN3(a,b,c))
23:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> if you just writ VEH_ID(a,b,c) you will end up with a,b,cid
23:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> which is not a valid identifier
23:01:08  <Yexo> but why do you need multiple arguments?
23:01:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that was his question
23:01:20  <Yexo> you can always do VEH_ID(a ## b ## c)
23:01:27  <andythenorth> that's what I'm testing
23:01:33  <andythenorth> ish
23:02:20  <andythenorth> that means abandoning __VA_ARGS though?
23:02:27  <andythenorth> which means a lot more code cruft
23:02:40  <Yexo> again: why would you even need multiple arguments to THIS_ID?
23:02:52  <Yexo> isn't using __VA_ARGS here the cruft?
23:03:18  <andythenorth> maybe there's another way
23:03:48  <Yexo> there are always other ways. The crucial question is: what do you want to solve
23:03:55  <andythenorth> templating road vehicle trailers
23:04:03  <andythenorth> I have everything done but the graphics chain
23:04:09  <andythenorth> which I'm stuck on
23:04:13  <Yexo> do you have one (or two) of them written out without any template code?
23:04:18  <andythenorth> no
23:04:21  <Yexo> do that first
23:04:37  <andythenorth> ?
23:04:39  <Yexo> than figure out what you duplicate for multiple vehicles. It only makes sense to template that part
23:05:05  <andythenorth> hmm
23:05:26  <Yexo> otherwise you're again going for over-engineering like with bandits
23:05:50  <andythenorth> I can't actually see how to write it out without templating
23:05:57  <andythenorth> I guess big switches
23:06:03  <Yexo> simply write the plain nml code for one vehicle?
23:06:04  <planetmaker> you can write one vehicle with switches?
23:06:30  <andythenorth> sure
23:06:31  <Yexo> if you have to duplicate a lot of code there for different cargo types, just do 3 of them
23:06:33  <planetmaker> i.e. consider to make a one-vehicle grf. That'd need no templates
23:07:51  <Terkhen> good night
23:07:59  <andythenorth> bye Terkhen
23:08:00  <Yexo> gn Terkhen
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23:10:05  <andythenorth> it's not so much over-engineered as clunky :P
23:10:08  <andythenorth> it's all too heavy
23:10:23  <andythenorth> but nvm
23:10:35  <andythenorth> removing stuff takes time :P
23:10:36  <Yexo> but doing one or two vehicles this way shows you which part is too heavy and needs to be templated
23:10:56  <andythenorth> yeah, no argument
23:11:23  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
23:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well. i built a parser that generates a tree that generates the switches... THAT's clunky :p
23:16:22  <Yexo> hehe, and after that nml builds another tree from those switches :p
23:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the graphics look like this then: date:(default:pruss,1924..1928:DRGearly, 1929..1949:DRG,>=1950:epoch3:(DB:DB,default:DRG))
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23:28:48  <Eddi|zuHause> wth did oberhÃŒmer break now
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23:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i should probably implement some syntax checking
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23:45:46  <Yexo> 3 "fix" commits for cets and it still fails compiling :p
23:46:24  <Yexo> you need some script that disallows pushes when it fails to compile
23:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> wait... that runs correctly here...
23:49:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Server returned an error: HTTP Error 502: Bad Gateway
23:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that's certainly none of my errors...
23:50:47  <Yexo> oh, I looked inside cets-r516-build.err.log not noticing the wrong revision in that file
23:51:56  <Yexo> good night
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