Log for #openttd on 18th January 2012:
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00:07:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "Iran will give back the US drone they captured. as a 1:80 model"
00:09:04  <Elukka> what a dick move! it just won't fit their model railways
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00:14:17  <Afdal> Hello
00:14:27  <Afdal> Got a quick question if anyone can answer it
00:15:00  <Afdal> Is profit calculated by distance from station to station or from source to accepting industry?
00:15:32  <Mark> from station sign to station sign
00:15:48  <Afdal> You mean where the label is for the station?
00:15:51  <Mark> yes
00:15:56  <Afdal> So I could make
00:16:04  <Afdal> part of a station to manipulate where the label goes
00:16:09  <Mark> yeah
00:16:15  <Afdal> and then make the rest of it to manipulate the distance calculation
00:16:21  <Afdal> cool, thanks
00:16:23  <Mark> thats why most servers use limited station spread
00:16:40  <Afdal> Well you could even
00:16:53  <Afdal> make part of it where part of the whole station is going to be
00:17:07  <Mark> yeah
00:17:13  <Mark> wont make too much of a difference though
00:17:36  <Mark> only if its over a very short distance
00:19:40  <Afdal> Neat trick to know when playing for profit though
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03:38:04  <Office> Long time no see...
03:38:36  *** Office is now known as Alltaken
03:38:52  <Alltaken> I mean, long time no see as Alltaken :-)
03:39:57  <Alltaken> Out of curiosity, is anyone here doing anything with the 32bpp development.  I'm trying to track down the Blender Lighting setup files etc...
03:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think any of these guys roam around here
03:58:50  <Alltaken> that is a shame
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04:35:33  <glx> Alltaken: TrueBrain recently did some stuff with blender but he's probably still sleeping
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05:59:40  <Alltaken> cheers glx,  i managed to eventually find what i was after..... much digging what a mess the wiki has been left in.
06:02:59  <Rubidium> hi Alltaken
06:26:25  <Rubidium> bye Alltaken ;)
06:28:20  <peter1138> pom te pom
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07:59:12  <dihedral> good morning
08:01:19  <SpComb> guten morgen
08:03:23  <Twofish> god morgen
08:03:25  <Twofish> ;)
08:04:57  <dihedral> a little late, but i enjoyed the post from the 1. Jan by Rubidium on the webpage ;-)
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09:18:33  <planetmaker> moin
09:22:06  <peter1138> hi
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09:27:50  <xiong> Well, I'm running chillpack and wrestling with cargodist. I've read quite thoroughly and it's a mystery still. That page seems to talk more about the hardships of implementation than of what it all means to the player.
09:28:50  <xiong> The basic concept seems clear enough: Various packets of cargo "decide" where they want to go; they are not merely accepted at any station that accepts that type of cargo. Correct?
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09:30:09  <xiong> So the station GUI has become quite complex. I have multiple ships running pax among six stations; there are 15 ships in 5 groups running various sets of orders.
09:31:07  <xiong> And yes, any given station shows some pax from there; others that arrived from somewhere else; and they want to go there, there, and there. Some want to go to A via B, etc.
09:33:10  <xiong> So I am baffled why a ship should get a full load at C, proceed to D, and fail to unload a single pax. I can't see "inside" the ship to see who wants to go where; once onboard, the ship GUI is as before and just tells my pax's origin, not their destination.
09:34:00  <xiong> Is there any discussion of how to *play* with cargodist?
09:34:43  <planetmaker> some in the forums and the wiki
09:34:47  <xiong> I'm starting to think that any vehicle ordered to A, B, C is likely to cause immediate trouble.
09:35:13  <xiong> Ah yes. Link please? Because the wiki page doesn't seem to link out to anything more useful.
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09:35:54  <planetmaker> I'll have to search like you would. I just remember to have seen some
09:36:42  <xiong> What appears to be the forum thread for cargodist runs to a whopping 118 pages... and every one that I've read so far deals with implementation, not the play consequences of same.
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09:42:26  <xiong> I was hoping to find someone with actual experience playing with this patch.
09:44:16  <peter1138> basically, don't ask us, we're not involved :p
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09:55:30  <xiong> Ah. Who is?
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09:58:31  <SpComb> xiong: tried the link graph display mode?
09:58:42  <SpComb> used to be in the minimap, but I gather it became a viewport overlay
09:59:09  <xiong> SpComb, I have seen it in the minimap. Interesting but I don't seem to draw any guidance from it.
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09:59:47  <SpComb> it'll tell you if some line is used more than some other line
10:00:31  <SpComb> xiong: also, I trust you're using non-stop orders per default?
10:00:42  <SpComb> although I gather that behaviour changed somewhat
10:00:43  <xiong> Yes; there are four metrics shown for... what I gather are actual routes.
10:01:31  <xiong> You know, right away I have to wonder if I'm not completely screwing things. I noticed the injunction to run all vehicles non-stop... and ships don't permit this.
10:02:39  <xiong> Now I've thought that it's not possible to order a ship non-stop because, essentially, all ship orders are non-stop -- they're not going to blunder into a dock that happens to be on the way to where they're ordered and suddenly start loading.
10:03:09  <xiong> But I can see that cargodist might take a narrower view and insist on seeing a non-stop flag.
10:05:16  <xiong> The metrics shown on the link overlay don't seem to correspond to anything I can get a hand on. Capacity, yes: put more vehicles on a route, increase the capacity. The others, not so sure.
10:06:06  <xiong> Usage, well, fine; according to wiki that's total actual usage, the relative fraction of capacity that is "full" of cargo.
10:06:25  <SpComb> at least in the original version, non-non-stop orders had essentially random cargo routing
10:07:24  <xiong> But then 'Planned Flow' appears weird... and 'Sent Cargo' appears to me, semantically, redundant with Usage. Although it's certainly not.
10:07:46  <xiong> Yes, SpComb; non-non-stop orders are most strongly warned against.
10:08:21  <SpComb> it changed, to some degree, with the temporary orders thingie
10:08:23  <SpComb> but I dunno
10:08:23  <xiong> It's not a reversion to trunk OTTD cargo acceptance; cargo goes where it doesn't want to go. So I gather.
10:08:48  <SpComb> but yeah, if you have non-non-stop orders then cargodist may well do silly things
10:09:01  <xiong> Perhaps my thinking will clear up if I switch to bus or rail.
10:09:14  <peter1138> non-non-stop doesn't work?
10:09:35  <xiong> peter1138, Ships don't permit non-stop orders. There's no button for that.
10:09:37  <SpComb> peter1138: I am a year or two behind
10:09:46  * SpComb doesn't play with ships either
10:09:49  <peter1138> i don't use non-stop
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10:10:22  <peter1138> well, sometimes
10:10:24  <xiong> peter1138, I assume you don't play cargodist or chillpack (that includes it) either, then.
10:10:29  <peter1138> on express services
10:10:32  <peter1138> quite
10:10:37  <peter1138> cargodest handles it properly
10:11:04  <peter1138> if i wanted to route everything manually with non-stops then i wouldn't need cargodest/dist :p
10:11:40  * appe_ have never used non-stop
10:11:41  <xiong> Well, chillpack also has a patch in there that alters topography generation. So I started with a map full of mountains and a large bay of broken water, many small lakes and bays. Ships seemed the easiest way to get started.
10:11:43  *** appe_ is now known as appe
10:12:35  <xiong> Ah, it would be a crying shame if water-heavy maps couldn't be played with ships.
10:13:40  <SpComb> I don't know anything about ship and cargodist
10:18:03  <xiong> Well thanks for mentioning the non-stop issue just the same, SpComb. I had the thought and dismissed it as "too silly" that ships just couldn't be used at all. Perhaps that's the case.
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10:25:35  <dihedral> \o/ a shared webserver we host has been compromised :-(
10:27:18  <xiong> I'm going to fool around with map generation, see if I can't get less water, and try road and rail. Thanks for the suggestion.
10:29:25  <peter1138> moar water!
10:29:51  <planetmaker> all you need is one tile of land :-)
10:30:25  * planetmaker suddenly gets the urge to create a nice scenario :-)
10:31:18  <planetmaker> would probably also make a good AI test one ;-)
10:38:52  <SpComb> dihedral: reinstall!
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11:15:40  <dihedral> SpComb, no kidding ;-)
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12:27:30  <TrueBrain> xkcd is as clear as day as always :D:D:D
12:27:38  <planetmaker> :-)
12:28:38  <TrueBrain> just browsing the web atm is awesome
12:29:33  <planetmaker> yep, did that an hour ago
12:29:48  <planetmaker> dilbert doesn't care interestingly
12:29:57  <TrueBrain> too bad we didnt do it for tbh, but meh .. we are more EU than US tbfh
12:30:24  <planetmaker> <-- like that? ;-)
12:30:42  <planetmaker> But yes, I think we mostly are EU
12:30:58  <TrueBrain> and no other dev suggested it, but still .. I feel bad :P
12:31:07  <^Spike^> :)
12:31:17  <^Spike^> ottdc has freedom fighters among the members it seems :D
12:31:21  * ^Spike^ whsitles
12:31:32  <^Spike^> although most credit goes to other members :)
12:32:12  <TrueBrain> it is one of those stupid ideas some US person came up with ...
12:32:17  <^Spike^> yep
12:32:17  <TrueBrain> sadly, his voice carries a long way :(
12:32:24  <^Spike^> money goes a long way
12:32:24  <TrueBrain> I wish I had a white-noise device installed in the US
12:32:27  <TrueBrain> would make life easier
12:32:32  <^Spike^> some have received half a million to support it
12:33:15  <TrueBrain> then again, in the Netherlands 2 ISPs are forced to disallowed access to thepiratebay, while we also are accepting an net-neutrality law ... which makes NO sense :P
12:33:38  <TrueBrain> "You are not allowed to filter the internet, but do block this website"
12:33:41  <^Spike^> yepz... but they are working on that aswell
12:33:44  <TrueBrain> poltics .. I hate politics ...
12:33:54  <^Spike^> and i love how BREIN messed up the list adding
12:34:05  <^Spike^> that's what you are going to... censoring X but secretly adding Y aswell
12:34:13  <^Spike^> although it's deleted again from the list
12:34:19  <^Spike^> but still that is what is going to happen
12:34:23  <TrueBrain> BREIN: "other countries already blocked these websites" - Interviewer: " Iran, North Korea, .."
12:36:12  <TrueBrain> well, soon we just all use Tor
12:36:18  <TrueBrain> problem solved, I guess :)
12:36:25  <^Spike^> but then we go banning tor
12:36:32  <^Spike^> cause we can't block stuff when ppl use tor!
12:36:41  <TrueBrain> DPI all over again :(
12:37:44  <TrueBrain> its funny; if they would spend all the money they spend on this in the economy, it might recover easier :P :P
12:37:48  <TrueBrain> (bullshit argument ftw :D)
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12:38:51  * TrueBrain goes to do something that makes him feel good :)
12:39:00  <TrueBrain> and no, not that, you dirty mind
12:40:13  <Elukka> tor has a lot of child porn and drug trading, yet it's still necessary
12:40:23  <Elukka> if governments didn't censor the internet there'd be no need for tor
12:40:56  <MNIM> wait, CP? where!
12:41:15  * MNIM comes racing around the corner like a good little pedobear
12:43:37  <TrueBrain> Elukka: you always will have countries that censor; you cannot expect that to ever go away
12:44:15  <Elukka> yeah, so you unfortunately need things like tor
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12:44:47  <TrueBrain> lets kill all dictators :D
12:45:15  <TrueBrain> oeh, time for some meetings! Epicnessssssss
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12:48:37  <planetmaker> <TrueBrain> lets kill all dictators :D <-- and let me decide who is considered a dicatator ;-)
13:04:50  <dihedral> \o/
13:05:08  <dihedral> no - let everybody decide for themselves :-P
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13:08:04  <planetmaker> and give everyone an hour to decide and a gun. And after that hour everyone shoots that person whom he or she consideres the biggest dictator. And we repeat that game until no-one wants to shoot anymore
13:08:05  <MNIM> anarchy! woooooh
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13:10:48  <dihedral> until they find a sole ruler over all the earth :-P
13:11:54  <dihedral> or: everybody only gets one bullet
13:12:08  <dihedral> then, if you are quick enough, you can get hold of a second and third bullet, etc.
13:12:26  <dihedral> + we might see some people being honest enough to shoot themselves :-P
13:13:49  <cornjuliox> how do you clear a train wreck?
13:14:00  <dihedral> with an ICBM
13:14:17  <lugo> cornjuliox: let time pass
13:18:47  <planetmaker> one(?) month or so
13:21:45  <cornjuliox> yeah
13:21:51  <cornjuliox> fast forward helps out
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13:58:00  <Ammler> TrueBrain: not too late for, the main downtime should be on US maintime anyway
13:58:12  <Guest24409> Hello
13:58:49  *** Guest24409 is now known as cmircea
13:58:53  <planetmaker> hello Guest24409
13:59:11  <cmircea> Is anyone working on an Android port?
13:59:26  <Yexo> maybe
13:59:29  <planetmaker> there exists / existed some port somewhere
13:59:41  <planetmaker> no idea about its state or maintenance level
14:00:23  <Yexo> cmircea: the android port that exist(s/ed) was/is not supported by any developers here
14:00:59  <cmircea> Well there is one on the Market, though it has no UI changes to accomodate touch, it's just a straight port.
14:01:08  <cmircea> Yexo, yeah, I expected that.
14:02:14  <planetmaker> And no-one submitted patches to that effect either
14:02:23  <cmircea> They also don't provide the source for their port as far as I can tell, so that's not helpful. I want to give it a shot trying to port it with the Android NDK.
14:02:34  <planetmaker> That's illegal, if they don't
14:02:47  <planetmaker> They have to give you the source, latest upon request
14:02:57  <planetmaker> Who's they?
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14:04:35  <cmircea>
14:04:58  <cmircea> Some guy called pelya I would guess:
14:05:30  <cmircea> I can't find the source for the OTTD port; I doubt it is a straight compile if you give it SDL and other libs.
14:05:35  <kais58> cmircea: you can just download that bigui newgrf file, that should help on android
14:05:51  <cmircea> kais58, that's if you have a small screen really.
14:06:32  <cmircea> kais58, but I think that port has no support for multi-touch (or right-click for that matter).
14:06:44  <kais58> I find it makes it much easier on my tablet, though no really messed withh it much
14:07:07  <kais58> you need right click..?
14:07:38  <cmircea> kais58, aren't some extra menus available with right-click? Sorry, haven't played TTD for a long while, might be wrong.
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14:07:49  <cmircea> Well I got a Galaxy Nexus and I don't plan on wasting it; thought I might take a shot at porting an old game.
14:11:20  <Yexo> cmircea: map scrolling, but that can be done other ways too
14:11:27  <Yexo> and tooltips used to be right-click
14:12:09  <planetmaker> seems he removed the source repo but keeps distributing openttd
14:13:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that clearly is a GPL violation
14:13:38  <planetmaker> quite
14:13:46  <cmircea> planetmaker, I can only find the source for the SDL port he's done. OpenTTD might compile directly with that, or it might not because of ARM/platform differences (more likely), in which cases the source needs to be available.
14:14:04  <Yexo> IIRC the source for that openttd android port was available on github before
14:14:45  <cmircea> then it's very likely a GPL violation
14:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the source not only must "be there", but you actually must offer a pointer to it
14:15:37  <cmircea> All you can get on the website is the apk. He provides a link to the OpenTTD website and the Market app.
14:15:59  <planetmaker> if I had an android device, I could probably download the binary. But there's nowhere an offer on the website to the source which works
14:16:13  <planetmaker> cmircea, the apk also doesn't work. It's a void link
14:16:40  <planetmaker> Yexo, on github I only find the iOS port
14:16:43  <cmircea> The link might be broken; the old versions one works.
14:16:48  <cmircea> I installed it from the Market, running it now.
14:17:18  <cmircea> It's downloading OpenSFX and probably the other parts too.
14:17:27  <planetmaker> (and blackberry, cargodist and flash actionscript)
14:18:03  <cmircea> planetmaker, where do you see that? I only find the SDL port.
14:18:14  <planetmaker> cmircea, I searched github for openttd
14:18:41  <planetmaker> thus finding it there wouldn't even solve the issue as it's not offered or at least linked
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14:18:48  <cmircea> Yeah.
14:19:14  <cmircea> planetmaker, OpenGFX and the likes are also under the GPL?
14:19:52  <cmircea> planetmaker, this is the SDL port:
14:19:56  <planetmaker> OpenGFX and OpenMSX are. OpenGFX is under the CC sampling plus 1.0
14:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> SFX you meant
14:20:15  <planetmaker> yes
14:20:26  <planetmaker> the sounds are "special"
14:20:31  <cmircea> planetmaker, the readme mentions openttd with some configure scripts; it might not need any modifications after all.
14:20:39  <planetmaker> mostly it means sounds must not be used commercially
14:21:12  <cmircea> But then the Open* parts aren't mentioned anywhere except as being downloaded by the application.
14:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> cmircea: but the gpl still technically demands a link to the source on the website offering the binary (or a "written offer" in case of offline transfer)
14:22:44  <cmircea> exactly
14:23:12  <Belugas> hello
14:23:32  <cmircea> Eddi|zuHause, well the wbesite points to the OpenTTD website. The app description on the market does not at all.
14:23:52  <cmircea> hi Belugas
14:25:09  <michi_cc> Pointing to some other site is not enough. GPL stipulates that the source must be available for at least three years, which is something you can't control if you just link to a third-party site. Thus, source hosted at the same place as the binary.
14:25:55  <cmircea> michi_cc, then it's in violation of the licenses of both OpenTTD and the OpenGFX/SFX/MSX projects.
14:27:15  <michi_cc> Yes. The source offer is a conceptual problems of almost all app markets because they generally don't have technical provisions built in for this.
14:27:56  <cmircea> Place it in the description, or in the application, or both.
14:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd include bananas in "app markets" there...
14:30:54  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, wrong: we only allow an author to upload it. Thus the author can give special and deviating permission to bananas
14:31:04  <planetmaker> which they do by the TOS
14:31:48  <planetmaker> which basically gives us the right to distribute the newest uploaded version to every client and others upon special request when identified by ID and md5sum
14:32:11  <Yexo> planetmaker: I'm not sure that would hold in court
14:32:12  <appe>
14:32:21  <planetmaker> our TOS, Yexo ?
14:32:24  <planetmaker> maybe not
14:32:34  <Yexo> as basically any user who downloads something from bananas with a gpl license has gotten the binary without a way of downloading the source
14:32:42  <Yexo> that shouldn't be possible
14:32:53  <cmircea> That definitely wouldn't hold in court.
14:33:02  <planetmaker> cmircea, that will work
14:33:19  <Yexo> question is who would be in trouble of course ;)
14:33:22  <planetmaker> If I, as the sole author offer a binary of a GPL thing for download, I need not supply it at the same side
14:33:24  <cmircea> I mean what Yexo said, downloading something GPL'd without the source.
14:33:32  <planetmaker> It's after all my work
14:34:04  <cmircea> planetmaker, hmm... maybe. Kind of makes all of the GPL points about the source moot if the author doesn't provide it.
14:34:08  <planetmaker> But yes... it's at least a gray area if a 3rd party like OpenTTD does that, even upon permission of the author
14:34:17  <planetmaker> cmircea, sure
14:34:31  <Yexo> openttd is clearly in the right to provide grfs if the author gave permission
14:34:35  <cmircea> Yeah, grey area for sure.
14:34:39  <Yexo> hence the rule: only the author can upload things
14:35:02  <Yexo> however, if you download such a grf, you can't redistribute it since you don't have the source (nor special permission to redistribute)
14:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd put in the TOS that it's the responsibility of the author that the description/link point to the source
14:35:11  <Yexo> so at that point in time the gpl is mood
14:35:49  <planetmaker> yes... which reminds me.... I wanted to revisit the TOS...
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14:36:37  <peter1138> the original series?
14:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the the original series?
14:37:05  <Noldo> :)
14:37:24  <michi_cc> Basically, while Bananas should be legal, it doesn't really accommodate the spirit of open source.
14:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> bananas is already in "violation" of the open source "spirit" by not allowing arbitrary upload
14:40:14  <cmircea> Allowing upload from everyone would mean screening to make sure there are no license violations. And if you want your butt fully covered, there's always SOPA, PIPA and ACTA to cause you headaches.
14:40:15  <planetmaker> yes also the original series... :-)
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14:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder about these american politicians... they can't even spell simple words like "soap" and "peepee" correctly...
14:44:30  <cmircea> =)
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14:56:32  <peter1138>
14:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> how'd they manage that?
14:58:55  <peter1138> pass
15:13:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i love our media "there's an internet strike" - "who cares about that, we have a SHIP WRECK"
15:14:42  <peter1138> heh
15:14:57  <glx> the ship is more important here too
15:15:16  <glx> and the loss of AAA
15:17:11  <__ln__> you can't deny the ship wreck is there because of a remarkable amount of stupidity.
15:23:32  <Elukka> i see they use the mÀrklin 3-rail system
15:23:59  <Elukka> there's a spur of track at the local railway museum that actually has a third rail down the middle
15:24:00  <Elukka> i don't get it
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15:47:33  <peter1138> ?
15:48:33  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's 750mm narrow gauge? :)
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16:05:00  <michi_cc> Who cares that ACTA was decided on in the EU Agriculture and Fisheries council anyway? I mean, it only contains provisions for censorship, surveillance of everybody and changes to criminal law, right?
16:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> behind you! a three headed monkey!
16:08:30  <__ln__> Nah, an honest law-abiding citizen has nothing to fear.
16:09:16  <michi_cc> Let's bring back the Stasi then!
16:09:46  <__ln__> They're trying to do that over here in Finland.
16:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> in a country where you're an "extremist" by only trying to prevent a properly registered nazi demonstration... (because, you know, nazis are a protected minority)... who is still "law abiding"
16:11:27  <__ln__> A law has been proposed that would allow the police to keep a register of suspicious people and their moves and actions. And just being nearby some specific place can be enough to be suspicious.
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16:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> recommended "reading": and (both german)
16:13:53  <__ln__> Also the police is already collecting a huge database on fingerprints (of regular people), because it's mandatory to give fingerprints to get a passport.
16:18:48  <SpComb> but they've promised not to abuse them, innit?
16:19:56  <SpComb> not to use them for solving petty crimes
16:20:00  <SpComb> until, uh
16:20:09  <__ln__> Yes, and already lobbying for the right to use them to solve very serious crimes.
16:21:01  <planetmaker> like downloading an mp3 file via torrent
16:21:21  <planetmaker> it has about the same penalty as beating up someone to go to hospital
16:21:42  <planetmaker> if you down and upload enough files thus that it can be considered commericial ;-)
16:22:11  <planetmaker> relative scales seem about right >:-|
16:23:29  <__ln__> Whether profit is gained (or attempted) with a copyright infringement doesn't even matter anymore.
16:24:10  <SpComb> 'cause profit is lost
16:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: have you actually heard of somebody being charged with _criminal_ copyright infringement, besides the guys who ran or
16:25:47  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that's how the law can be interpreted
16:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> usually it's civilian charges
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16:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and thus they introduced the right to get ip information from the providers, so they don't bother the courts as much...
16:27:42  <__ln__> What are former Stasi employees doing today?
16:27:54  <planetmaker> keeping care of the Stasi files ;-)
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16:35:37  <__ln__>
16:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: occasionally there are "scandals" where high ranking officials are "found out" to have a stasi-past
16:37:07  <kais58> TrueBrain: you about?
16:37:16  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:38:03  <TrueBrain> just got home after a 3 hour meeting; first dinner, then I iwll check your account ;)
16:42:29  <TrueBrain> argh, food takes an hour :P
16:42:41  <TrueBrain> kais58: PM me your email + loginname(s); _NO_ passwords plz :)
16:43:07  <SpComb> __ln__: aww, using the IP address lets you in :)
16:43:27  <SpComb> although it's the wrong way around to go into /etc/hosts
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18:38:02  <spongie> How come train 1 isn't reserving a track towards point A?
18:38:35  <spongie> it has orders to go to waypoint hedworth
18:40:11  <Ammler> you have higher penalty
18:40:43  <spongie> how can I get it to reserve the free track?
18:40:55  <Ammler> make both ways with same penalty
18:41:12  <spongie> the thing is, it cant know how long the train in front will linger
18:41:18  <Ammler> or use presignals with eol
18:41:18  <spongie> might be broken down
18:41:21  <spongie> eol?
18:42:22  <Ammler> end-of-line, infinite penalty
18:42:51  <spongie> hm presignals have a problem
18:43:21  <spongie> if a train is accelerating from 0 speed, it may have a green when starting the branch, but then a quick train moves by blocking it later.
18:44:33  <Ammler> you can keep the path signal where you have it but set 2way presignals on the split
18:44:35  <spongie> the way i solved this before is by adding priority tracks, but it adds a lot of complexity and use space
18:44:54  <spongie> the first split?
18:45:10  <Ammler> yes, set 4 additional signals, nothing else :-)
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18:45:39  <spongie> sounds awesome, but im having problems figuring out exactly how that would work
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23823 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 46 changes by chenwt0315
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Parody
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 56 changes by OliTTD
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 38 changes by Jogio
18:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 23 changes by Parastais
18:46:25  <Ammler> well, the penalty calcluation finishes at eol
18:47:09  <spongie> i think that scope of openttd magic is beyond me
18:48:36  <Ammler> eol isn't default anymore, so newbies might not be aware about that "feature"
18:48:51  <spongie> no, never seen it in any examples, i think
18:49:10  <Ammler> you find such things at #openttdcoop a lot
18:49:29  <spongie> mm, blackout today
18:50:35  <spongie> anyway, i dont understand where to put the presignals. and we're talking an entry signal followed by exits or combos?
18:50:48  <Ammler> 2way exit
18:50:55  <Ammler> hmm, does not matter
18:50:59  <Ammler> just 2way
18:51:36  <Ammler> afaik, 2way eol is for every type, even the non-presigs
18:52:21  <spongie> 2way?
18:52:26  <spongie> im not sure where to put the eol
18:52:40  <Ammler> after the split
18:52:53  <Ammler> you have to splits, so you need 4 sigs
18:53:07  <Ammler> two*
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18:56:07  <spongie> i put in exit signals, the bridge exit is green, yet the path signal blocks
18:56:13  <spongie> it still wants to reserve the non-bridge routes
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18:56:36  <spongie> nah, there we go
18:56:49  <Ammler> so what?
18:57:08  <Ammler> you might have forgotten to change the eol setting
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18:58:06  <spongie> oh yeah
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18:59:23  <spongie> hm, under routing?
19:00:12  <Ammler> pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol = on
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19:00:32  <spongie> can one count on this option being on? is there any way of solving this using default settings?
19:00:47  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:01:01  <Ammler> I see no advantage on having that off
19:01:32  <Ammler> no clue, why they changed that, but they once messed around with default settings in bulk :-)
19:02:25  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02:29  <Ammler> but it is for sure easier as fiddling with penalties
19:03:17  <planetmaker> the reason to change that is simple: there's no reason to treat a one-way block signal and a two-way block signal, both at red state, differently
19:03:23  <planetmaker> doing so, is highly confusing
19:03:40  <planetmaker> doing not so... allows playing some tricks
19:03:47  <planetmaker> by specifically using two-way
19:04:13  <Ammler> yeah, it does not hurt as it is a setting :-)
19:04:41  <Ammler> planetmaker: but you do not have a practical example, do you?
19:05:00  <planetmaker> ?
19:05:13  <Ammler> for an advantage of having 2way signals not eol
19:05:16  <planetmaker> red-two-way-eol = false is default
19:05:28  <planetmaker> and the adv. is. treat every red signal the same
19:05:30  <spongie> planetmaker: im thinking the same
19:05:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: how is that an advantage?
19:06:05  <Ammler> it is just less confusing...
19:06:11  <spongie> so with this behavior of the path signal not reserving the free track because it has too high penalty, can I get around it without raising the penalty for the other line as well?
19:06:22  <spongie> can I tell the signal "Just reserve any free track to reach your goal" ?
19:06:46  <Ammler> no
19:07:05  <spongie> so basically, the train will rather sit and wait for a broken down train in front rather than take the bridge hit?
19:08:28  <spongie> i usually solve this track option using presignals and prio tracks on the side, but im trying to see if theres a way to do it with less space used.
19:09:24  <Ammler> you do not need more space, just 4 signals more
19:09:38  <spongie> if I choose to use a non-default setting, i guess.
19:09:49  <Ammler> yes, but that is a newbie setting
19:10:01  <spongie> i am a newbie
19:10:10  <Ammler> if you think about such things, you should change it to advance use
19:10:33  <spongie> i wish there was a signal that would change color by a selected track section
19:12:00  <spongie> or that path signals would allow alternative routes even if penalized.
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19:15:07  <spongie> a cool feature would be to add ghost tracks or lines to work as prio lines without. :)
19:15:25  <planetmaker> just do that
19:15:56  <spongie> i meant that do not cross ordinary tracks or affect them except where you anchor them
19:16:02  <spongie> like wires
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19:20:25  <andythenorth> evening
19:20:33  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
19:20:37  <Jogio> good evening too
19:20:51  <Belugas> Good evening daddy!
19:20:55  <andythenorth> ho
19:20:57  <TrueBrain> hello
19:21:06  <andythenorth> Belugas: epic excuses to buy lego
19:21:10  <andythenorth> my credit card is wounded
19:21:32  <TrueBrain> they cut it in 2?
19:21:37  <andythenorth> Belugas if you need any recommends, I have lots of opinions on current lego...
19:21:42  <andythenorth> lol @ TrueBrain :P
19:21:45  <Belugas> lol :)
19:21:51  <andythenorth> TrueBrain is funny, why was he away for so long?
19:22:14  <Belugas> go on, i'm all eyes :)
19:22:39  * planetmaker would now link to an image and say "and you still ask", but fears that might be disallowed by privacy laws ;-)
19:23:02  <andythenorth> Belugas: my older kid loves this:
19:23:16  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that is mean .. and bad ... and ... icky!
19:23:19  <andythenorth> but at £70 it's a rip off.  Most UK retailers have it for £50 which is good
19:23:27  <andythenorth> the boat floats = bath time fun
19:23:40  * frosch123 is only allowed to play with duplo so far
19:23:41  * planetmaker hugs TrueBrain
19:23:59  <planetmaker> :-)
19:24:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: looks like fish
19:24:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: odd that :o
19:24:15  <andythenorth> kind of does
19:24:19  <andythenorth> Belugas: also
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19:24:29  <andythenorth> is very expensive, but was appreciated at christmas
19:24:59  <andythenorth> that is actually insanely expensive, I don't recall paying that much :o
19:25:54  <andythenorth> Belugas: but at the less wallet-hurting end, this fire truck is nice:
19:26:10  <andythenorth> meanwhile, /me is annoyed with BROS again
19:26:18  <andythenorth> why can't that project just have it's thread locked
19:26:29  <andythenorth> ineptitude should come with a penalty
19:26:52  <planetmaker> andythenorth: where would be all the fun?
19:27:03  <andythenorth> they're so lazy
19:27:11  <andythenorth> writing nml is easier than falling on your head
19:27:17  <andythenorth> you can teach a computer to do it
19:27:33  <Rubidium> BROS is mostly air, right? So it's really like (Dutch) Bros, or Aero in English
19:28:58  <andythenorth> maybe we could patch the game to refuse to load their newgrf
19:30:06  <frosch123> hmm, none of those firetrucks have lights or horns
19:30:11  <frosch123> *electric
19:30:33  <frosch123> is that uncommon nowadays?
19:30:47  <andythenorth> light and sound is kind of gone from lego town
19:31:55  <planetmaker> also light?
19:32:40  <Belugas> love that red cargo train :)
19:32:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
19:33:56  <frosch123> planetmaker: those lights which you could turn around to make them light constantly resp. make them blink
19:34:05  <frosch123> and those horns which you could turn to change the sound
19:34:07  <andythenorth> they were awesome
19:35:14  <planetmaker> horns... I can understand that ;-)
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19:41:21  <__ln__>
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19:41:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth: with the ship you showed: is the body one piece or is it puzzled from many?
19:41:38  <andythenorth> one piece
19:41:45  <andythenorth> means it is bouyant
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19:42:49  <andythenorth>
19:43:53  <frosch123> <- yay, found it
19:44:20  <frosch123> i had that box like 3 times. i asked like every relative for one, just to get more horns and lights :p
19:44:30  <planetmaker> :-D
19:44:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: yours for £7.92 and shipping
19:44:48  <andythenorth>
19:44:53  <andythenorth> seems cheap
19:45:12  * andythenorth is tempted
19:45:27  <andythenorth> the horn had a lot of...treble
19:49:25  <andythenorth> hmm
19:49:26  <andythenorth> time for code
19:50:19  <frosch123> <- i even had that one :o
19:50:45  <andythenorth> same one?
19:51:02  <frosch123> totally weird, but sadly you could basically not use it for anything else :s
19:51:10  <valhallasw> a... lego wiki? of course! awesome \o/
19:51:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: ....other fire trucks :P
19:51:31  <andythenorth> or making annoying things that go 'wee wee wee'
19:54:35  <andythenorth> hmm
19:54:42  <andythenorth> I've built a code templating engine
19:54:48  <andythenorth> driven by an object database
19:54:59  <andythenorth> now I just need to write something to auto-populate the database :P
19:55:01  <andythenorth> then my work is done
19:59:42  <Terkhen> hello
19:59:49  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen
20:00:24  <Alberth> hello
20:01:14  <Jogio> does somebody know a good industry set which doesn't remove the default industries?
20:01:44  <Jogio> just add some more industries too them
20:01:50  <Alberth> the OpenGFX+Industries
20:02:20  <Jogio> hmm, I will try
20:02:30  <Alberth> or the default industries themselves (they add 0 extra industries) :p
20:02:54  <Jogio> wow "_"
20:03:15  <Alberth> any other industry set removes the default one, which fails on your second requirement ;)
20:03:48  <frosch123> manual industries does not remove industries
20:03:57  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how is life of working man?
20:03:59  <frosch123> it just kills their souls and turns them into zombie industries
20:04:10  <Terkhen> not sure
20:04:30  <Terkhen> we had to take courses until today, I start real work tomorrow
20:04:35  <Jogio> no it don't like zombies ^^
20:05:19  <frosch123> even if you control them?
20:05:36  <Jogio> but it would be very cool to have all industries of all industry sets in one game ^^
20:05:53  <Alberth> nah, too much of a good thing is a bad thing
20:06:00  <frosch123> that is already uncool with default industries :p
20:06:23  <Alberth> Jogio: FIRS gives you a LOT of stuff to do, you don't need more, really
20:06:25  <Jogio> ok toyland industries not
20:06:44  <Alberth> but toyland is such fun !
20:06:52  <frosch123> it just makes no sense to transport gold and diamonds to some banks, and transport valueables between other
20:07:15  <frosch123> or forests and lumber mills in one game is silly as well :)
20:07:18  <Alberth> some banks are valuable, and some are not :p
20:07:35  <Jogio> now before I play in toyland I give me some LSD and I still can play in temperate
20:08:06  <Alberth> you should try the original set of graphics ;)
20:08:18  <frosch123> toyland is actually nice to play if you use opengfx instead of original graphics
20:08:20  *** supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
20:09:09  <Jogio> i don't trust you really frosch
20:09:26  <frosch123> there is something cool in transporting 1500 bags of sweets
20:10:03  <frosch123> imagine producing so many sweets that you need ships to transport them :p
20:11:22  <Jogio> the poor tooth of all the little children...
20:11:28  <Jogio> *teeth
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20:11:42  <frosch123> what children?
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20:11:49  <frosch123> i never saw any children in toyland
20:11:57  <Jogio> in the citys...
20:12:22  <Jogio> city's can't grow without childrens
20:12:28  <planetmaker> only sugar worms live there
20:12:33  <planetmaker> and candy moths
20:12:43  <planetmaker> and cola whales
20:12:48  <Jogio> and dentists
20:12:53  <planetmaker> no no
20:12:59  <planetmaker> Karies und Baktus
20:16:23  <Jogio> i have to try if firs works in toyland too...
20:16:57  <frosch123> firs in toyland? makes no sense to me. the best about toyland are the animated industries
20:17:23  <planetmaker> I think it doesn't work
20:19:28  <Jogio> no
20:19:44  <planetmaker> I think I put the climate check there myself ;-)
20:19:49  <Jogio> does't work
20:20:11  <Jogio> ha, where is it
20:20:30  <Jogio> i will remove and test xD
20:20:48  <planetmaker> sprites/nml/checks.pnml probably
20:21:01  <planetmaker> but you need to get the source and then compile it yourself
20:21:09  <planetmaker> if that's removed there's no reason it wouldn't work
20:21:37  * andythenorth wonders if it's acceptable to make the entire Zope web framework a dependency for BANDIT
20:21:48  <andythenorth> it only takes ~15 mins to install :P
20:25:58  <frosch123> python-zope ?
20:26:14  <andythenorth> yup
20:26:26  <andythenorth> somewhat overkill
20:26:39  <frosch123> it's available as debian package, so i doubt it would take 15 minutes to install
20:26:47  <andythenorth> definitely redefines sledgehammer -> nut
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20:39:16  <Wolf01> 'evening
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20:42:54  <appe> evening, germans and asperger's.
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20:50:14  <andythenorth>
20:50:26  <andythenorth> can I be arsed to turn all those table cells into form fields so I can edit in place?
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20:55:46  <andythenorth> web gui to configure a newgrf?
20:56:04  <andythenorth> for all those lazy-arsed people with feature requests?
20:57:42  <planetmaker> I know probably a few who'd like that
20:59:49  <frosch123> stevenh somewhen started some online version of grfmaker
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20:59:59  <frosch123> never saw it in action though
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21:20:26  <Terkhen> meh, stupid sopa
21:23:03  <andythenorth> turn off JS
21:23:06  <andythenorth> in many cases
21:24:04  <Terkhen> nah, I just can't visit many of my procrastination sites today
21:24:14  <Terkhen> bbl
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21:27:44  <andythenorth> ho
21:27:51  <andythenorth> my BANDIT-generator works
21:28:32  <andythenorth> copy output from here
21:28:33  <andythenorth> paste into sprites/nml/all_trucks.pnml
21:28:36  <andythenorth> make
21:29:31  <andythenorth> wonder if I could also setup the lang file that way
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21:46:28  <frosch123> night
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22:05:23  <andythenorth> bye
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22:22:07  <xiong> No, I still don't understand cargodist. I have a small network of road and rail; pax are moving around. Technically, the graph was disjoint. I was offered a subsidy between two already-serviced towns, which service I established by bus.
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22:23:42  <Terkhen> good night
22:24:02  <xiong> So now it's a connected graph. The new route has run for a year and still, a vehicle just left -- empty -- from a station advertising 7 pax desperate to go anywhere at all.
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22:26:26  <xiong> I have decided that the confusion is that it takes the bus long enough to make the intertown trip that its capacity-per-month is calculated at 2 pax. Apparently this is not great enough to put any actual pax on the bus, even though it can actually hold 10.
22:27:40  <xiong> Sorry, I wasn't clear. That low cap-per-month only explains why pax are not *planned* over the link. But I can't explain why the desperate ones don't get on. So, I'm stumped. cargodist makes no sense to me.
22:29:08  <xiong> In fact four buses are plying this route and all are empty; the subsidy has expired; and pax are waiting at both ends.
22:29:28  * xiong *baffled*
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22:36:53  <SmatZ> videos like this one remind me of The Incredible Machine :)
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22:45:26  <appe> oh
22:45:28  <appe> the game?
22:45:33  <appe> i have a vague memory of it
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22:51:33  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:31:46  <MNIM> oooh, the incredible machine! LOVED that game. played the *censored* out of it on my babysitter's windows 3.11 PC. :D
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