Log for #openttd on 19th January 2012:
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05:36:38  <Lolliiee> I was wondering if anyone is able to help me with the Beta OpenTTD?
05:38:41  <Lolliiee> It saying 'No available Language Packs (invalid versions?) Any reason why that would be happening?
05:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you didn't install it correctly
05:40:31  <Lolliiee> Ah, i see. What did I miss?]
05:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, what did you do?
05:42:19  <Lolliiee> Welll I download the istaller for Windows 64bit. I couldnt find anything else that i need. However I could have been loioking in the wrong place
05:44:26  <Rubidium> I reckon you did an upgrade from an older version of OpenTTD, right?
05:44:57  <Lolliiee> yep 1.1.5]]
05:47:04  <Rubidium> was that running? As it sounds like Windows prevented writing to the openttd binary
05:48:30  <Lolliiee> Yes, very weel, however my friend and I couldnt hop onto eachotehrs servers, so I decided to download the Beta like him
05:53:44  <Rubidium> what might work is making sure you don't have OpenTTD running and uninstall + reinstall it, or extracting the .zip download over the installation directory
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07:03:41  <XR6580> Hello.
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11:37:02  <andythenorth> nml will only work with strings declared in a lang file?
11:37:12  <andythenorth> I can't just declare name: "foo"
11:37:12  <andythenorth> ?
11:40:12  <planetmaker> you need them declared in the lang file
11:40:22  <andythenorth> k
11:40:26  <andythenorth> nvm
11:42:29  * andythenorth wonders if the makefile can do curl > foo.txt
11:42:39  <andythenorth> and whether that's stupid :)
11:45:18  <TinoDidriksen> It can do that, but yeah probably stupid...
11:46:20  <Ammler> andythenorth: the devzone build system has no internet
11:46:33  <andythenorth> Ammler: very wise :)
11:46:38  <Ammler> so at least it should be no requirement
11:47:09  <andythenorth> Ammler: fancy installing zope on devzone? :P
11:47:13  <andythenorth> probably not :)
11:47:37  <Ammler> well, we can setup a vm for that...
11:48:07  <andythenorth> I doubt you want to maintain it though, and I'm not competent to do so :)
11:48:53  <Ammler> I doubt, there is competence needed to do anything
11:49:05  <Ammler> at least all I did was without ;-)
11:49:07  <andythenorth> you'd be surprised :)
11:51:14  <Ammler> well, you can gather it with time, someone needs to start
11:52:38  <Ammler> as we have no commercial back, it can only hurt our ego
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12:35:18  <xiong> Okay, some more dope on cargodist. Previously, we decided that ships just wouldn't work since they can't be ordered non-stop -- one might think a ship never makes a by-docking but cargodist requires the non-stop flag.
12:36:07  <Yexo> so report that in the cargodist forum topic
12:37:17  <xiong> That's pointless, Yexo. That topic is 118 pages at last count and most of it has to do with technical details, coding style, fantasies, wish lists, bugs, and outdated issues.
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12:37:35  <Yexo> xiong: if you don't report it you're sure if won't get fixed
12:37:40  <xiong> I haven't actually seen anything in it yet that clearly relates to playing with the patch.
12:37:45  <Yexo> however long that topic is, the most recent posts still get read
12:38:34  <xiong> Oh, I'm not interested in "getting it fixed". No ships, no ships. That may be of interest but right now, I'd like to figure out what it *is* before I fantasize about what it should be.
12:39:06  <planetmaker> you're just interested in spamming this channel with remarks which none of the people who might potentially be interesed will read?
12:39:09  <xiong> I don't even know certainly that ships won't work -- only that we came up with a plausible explanation of why they might not.
12:39:16  <xiong> ?
12:39:31  <xiong> Is this... a non-cargodist channel? This is... OT?
12:39:43  <Yexo> well, discussing cargoist is fine
12:39:44  <xiong> Sorry... point me to the cargodist channel.
12:39:49  <Yexo> however for a discussion you need multiple people
12:39:56  <Yexo> so far you seem the only one interested here
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12:40:08  <Yexo> even the author can't be found here, just on the forums
12:40:21  <xiong> Sorry... is this a ridiculous patch? Nobody plays it?
12:40:31  <Yexo> no, quite the opposite
12:40:34  <Yexo> a lot of people play it
12:40:45  <Yexo> however there are vastly more players than can be found here
12:40:52  <xiong> I assume that if I discuss it, perhaps others in chan who also have an interest will... discuss it.
12:41:27  <Yexo> well, that's fine
12:41:51  <xiong> I see 100 users in this chan. I find it... a little odd... to suggest out of hand that nobody here might have any interest in discussing a particular OTTD topic. What am I missing?
12:42:17  <planetmaker> the multi-user part which is implied by "discussion"
12:42:24  <xiong> "Don't ask to ask", right?
12:42:54  <Yexo> xiong: the point you're missing is that you've brought up cargodist several times over the last few days and this is the first time you've gotten any reaction. at least as far as I remember
12:42:55  <xiong> I just jump in and say what I have to say, ask what I have to ask. Or are you taking some sort of personal offense here?
12:43:17  <xiong> Well no, actually. The last time I came in here is when we thrashed out the ship issue.
12:43:37  <xiong> And actually, that was... the second or third time I mentioned it here.
12:43:46  <Yexo> ok, sorry, go on
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12:44:25  <xiong> This begins to sound like a personal issue. I'm not here to knock heads with anybody. If you just feel I'm pissing on your turf or I have bad breath, fine. I actually enjoy playing this game and I don't like to get into personality conflicts.
12:45:11  <Yexo> <xiong> Oh, I'm not interested in "getting it fixed". <- if anything, I had a slight issue with this comment. But this whole discussion is going way farther than I ever wanted
12:45:31  <xiong> I've been very badly treated by some people in this community... and I don't come here to hash it up or roll in the dirt. I'm keeping strictly to business.
12:45:40  <Yexo> when I said: <Yexo> well, that's fine and <Yexo> ok, sorry, go on there was no sarcasm intented
12:46:12  <michi_cc> xiong: The point is that if you actually want answers, and not just not a soap box to stand on, you should post on the cargodist thread and not here. Not because it would be off-topic or anything, just simply because the people who can answer you aren't in the channel.
12:46:18  <Yexo> while I do remember your nick I don't recall how you were badly treated, and anyway that's of no concern for me right now
12:46:28  <planetmaker> Yexo: wrt the NML graphics switch: my comment mostly referred to the order of callbacks vs. graphics (which always is the default branch)
12:46:29  <xiong> You *develop* OTTD. You want to develop. I want to *play*. This is where we butt heads. I'm glad you develop. Why should it annoy anyone that I play?
12:47:09  <Yexo> we develop OpenTTD, not cargodist. And you're not annoying anyone
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12:47:41  <xiong> michi_cc, Perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell me what you think is on topic for this channel. I thought the game in all its forms was discussable here.
12:47:50  <Yexo> planetmaker: and using "default:" as prefix is not acceptable?
12:47:56  <planetmaker> it makes sense to have the default cargo switch probably last to the graphics switches. But it's at least unintuitive or not documented :-)
12:48:09  <michi_cc> xiong: Did you read what I wrote? I said " Not because it would be off-topic or anything, just simply because the people who can answer you aren't in the channel."
12:48:13  <planetmaker> Documentation could probably help there... it was more of a "just stumbled about"
12:48:17  <planetmaker> It's perfectly acceptable
12:48:20  <Yexo> xiong: for the last time: it's fine to discuss cargodist here. However there are far more players (and the developer) to be found on the forums who are not here
12:48:23  <planetmaker> also the 'default'
12:48:43  <Yexo> ok, so documentation needs to be improved there
12:48:54  <xiong> michi_cc, Okay, this I just don't understand. You know, somehow, that none of the hundred people in the chan know anything about this, or want to exchange ideas about it?
12:49:02  <Yexo> did you already update the documentation for the cargo classes?
12:49:10  <planetmaker> It's also no "you should do". It was more of a mental note in general, Yexo :-)
12:49:15  <andythenorth> can we add 'meta discusssions about topic are mostly off-topic' to the topic please
12:49:17  <planetmaker> yes, I did that this morning
12:49:35  <xiong> andythenorth, Yah, I agree. Can I go back to discussing cargodist?
12:49:53  <andythenorth> why not?
12:49:59  <xiong> Thanks.
12:50:13  <Yexo> planetmaker: the "this morning" referred to the cargoclass documentation?
12:50:21  <planetmaker> yes
12:51:00  <Yexo> :)
12:51:03  <xiong> So, having dropped ships in favor of road and rail, I get the feeling that cargodist refuses to ship cargo intended for multiple destinations in a single vehicle.
12:52:16  <xiong> So given pax originating at A, wanting to go to C; others wanting to go to D; and links from B to A, C, D -- a vehicle from A to B will carry A-C or A-D pax, not both.
12:53:47  <xiong> So as a real example, I have 273 pax waiting at this moment at one station -- with 13 different destination stations. And if I had a vehicle pull up with a 200 pax capacity, it would only load 54 of them.
12:54:12  <xiong> I believe that for trains, this is per carriage, not per train.
12:54:18  <xiong> Does this seem reasonable?
12:55:08  <Yexo> planetmaker: mentions only the "default:" syntax for the default block
12:55:25  <Yexo> I can't find documentation that says "default:" is optional if it's the last entry, although it is
12:55:30  <planetmaker> hm :-) I guess my mental docs are out-of-date then ;-)
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12:56:44  <andythenorth> xiong: read the patch code?
12:57:43  <xiong> andythenorth, Can't, sorry. I don't speak C. Not a line. It's been over 20 years since I had anything to do with it.
12:57:59  <planetmaker> Yexo: should that (defaut: ...) apply to the livery_override { ... } block?
12:58:11  <Yexo> yes
12:58:29  <planetmaker> then I'll ammend it there, too. And add the info that callbacks are allowed
12:58:45  <xiong> I think the algorithms are probably more or less well explained on the related wiki page in any case. Something there contributes to my feeling about the no-sharing.
12:59:23  <Yexo> maybe just put something there like "<contents ame as graphics-block>"?
13:00:03  <planetmaker> I added that info. I'd just keep the example, though?
13:00:08  <planetmaker> with callback added
13:00:25  <Yexo> where did you add it?
13:00:32  <xiong> And yes, andythenorth; if I ever get to the point of thinking something is known about cargodist, I should write it up on wiki as a 'Player's Guide'.
13:00:52  <planetmaker> in the preview not yet submitted
13:00:54  <andythenorth> there's a wiki page?
13:00:57  <andythenorth> :o
13:01:19  <planetmaker> it's called NML documentation
13:01:20  <xiong>
13:01:37  <xiong> But it's pretty much all talk from the developer's side.
13:02:16  <planetmaker> there. hit 'submit'
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13:03:12  <Yexo> looks fine :)
13:04:04  <planetmaker> :-)
13:04:46  <xiong> Yexo, you can refresh your memory by checking out my emails from 2010 Nov 25. Feel free to PM me if it doesn't come back.
13:04:59  <Yexo> already remembered
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13:07:53  <AcidWeb> Hello
13:08:01  <Yexo> hi
13:09:01  <AcidWeb> Anybody experienced sudden increase of ppl dropping from servers?
13:09:13  <AcidWeb> I got logs full of:
13:09:20  <AcidWeb> *** X has left the game (general error)
13:09:20  <AcidWeb> *** X has left the game (connection lost)
13:09:29  <AcidWeb> After 1.1.5 update
13:09:37  <planetmaker> AcidWeb: that's in the beta2 the synonym for 'connection lost'
13:09:42  <Yexo> when they are already playing or when they're joining the game?
13:09:45  <planetmaker> due to a small bug which is already fixed
13:09:53  <AcidWeb> Yexo: both
13:09:58  <planetmaker> sure that the normal connection losses are more common?
13:10:07  <planetmaker> or this more than the usual ones?
13:10:18  <Yexo> I think the general error in 1.1.5 means that they're too slow when joining the game
13:10:30  <planetmaker> and that it's not a awareness effect due to the (buggy) 'general error'?
13:10:59  <AcidWeb> They was some DC when i was running 1.1.4 too. But not so much and i dont seen "general error" then
13:11:06  <planetmaker> hm, might be that 1.1.5 has not the specific messages, yes
13:11:16  <planetmaker> AcidWeb: try to increase the timeouts
13:11:26  <planetmaker> for server join. There are two new variables
13:13:23  <AcidWeb> max_join_time ?
13:16:18  <AcidWeb> planetmaker: What is the second?
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13:17:42  <XR6580> Hello.
13:19:13  <Yexo> AcidWeb: max_download_time and max_password_time
13:19:15  <Yexo> hi XR6580
13:19:30  <planetmaker> max_download_time; and max_password_time;
13:19:38  <planetmaker> ^ AcidWeb
13:19:41  <planetmaker> hm, slow :-)
13:19:47  <XR6580> I am suprised that OpenTTD doesn't protest against SOPA.
13:19:57  <XR6580> All sites I am going into are protesting against.
13:20:10  <XR6580> It has become messy for now.
13:20:31  <Yexo> isn't the blackout already over?
13:20:34  <planetmaker> it is
13:20:44  <planetmaker> blackout day was yesterday
13:21:01  <AcidWeb> Yexo, planetmaker: Thank you i will try increasing them.
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13:38:39  <peter1138> also none of us is from the US :p
13:39:12  <AcidWeb> peter1138: And?
13:39:41  <AcidWeb> This issue affects all Internet users.
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13:59:15  <appe> wouldnt it seem nice not to care just because everybode else does?
13:59:44  <appe> it is - sorry to say - not relevant what everybode else does.
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14:16:57  <Belugas> hello
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14:58:32  * appe is on an old X1.
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15:29:50  <XR6580> appe, I agree with you.
15:30:05  <XR6580> Just yesterday I made a guy rage because I didn't care about SOPa.
15:30:17  <XR6580> No one is told to care or even do anything about that.
15:37:07  <appe> and don't get me wrong. Im involved in trying to stop it. though, that if anything makes me want to avoid people just tagging along for the ride.
15:37:29  <appe> stuff like that may prevent stuff that might be good, instead.
15:37:32  <XR6580> I never make any actions.
15:37:43  <XR6580> I like to be neutral for everything.
15:38:22  <dihedral> you mean, you don't like having a  mind of your own
15:38:27  <planetmaker> sounds like a ^
15:38:42  <dihedral> hello planetmaker :-)
15:38:43  <planetmaker> don't think. Don't talk. Just do what being told
15:38:47  <planetmaker> hi dihedral :-)
15:38:53  <XR6580> No planetmaker.
15:38:54  <peter1138> an apple user?
15:38:58  <planetmaker> I'm reminded of... dunno. 1984.
15:39:00  <dihedral> was that not what was required from the NS?
15:39:02  <XR6580> I am not a mindless person that does everything somebody says.
15:39:12  <XR6580> I just stay neutral.
15:39:25  <XR6580> Never joining good or bad side.
15:39:41  <dihedral> so never joining any side
15:39:42  <planetmaker> The price of freedom is eternal diligence
15:39:52  <XR6580> I have freedom.
15:39:59  <XR6580> And I use that freedom to be freely neutral.
15:40:01  <planetmaker> Because others care for it
15:40:32  <XR6580> planetmaker, are you taking this wrong that I stay neutral?
15:40:41  <dihedral> nope
15:40:50  <planetmaker> With your attitude you, frankly, don't quite deserve freedom :-)
15:40:50  <appe> the thing I really don't like with this SOPA thing, is how the anonymous community gets involved.
15:40:52  <dihedral> there is neutral and neutral
15:40:57  <planetmaker> That's your right, though
15:40:57  <appe> and they suck.
15:41:16  <XR6580> Oh so you think that only people that parcipitate in something deserve freedom?
15:41:19  <XR6580> Then go to war.
15:41:29  <dihedral> you consider freedom to be your own little world in which conflicts from the real word do not exist
15:42:07  <appe> just because he doesn't mind it?
15:42:08  <dihedral> staying neutral is fine - the motives behind is what make the difference
15:42:29  <XR6580> I am just neutral because I want to.
15:42:34  <XR6580> No one can tell me that's bad.
15:42:55  <dihedral> you are attracted to 'neutral' without having a clear thought behind any matter concerning the world :-P
15:43:08  <XR6580> Yeah, I don't give a damn about the world :>
15:43:13  <dihedral> :-P
15:43:32  <dihedral> see? you are merely interested in your own well being
15:43:46  <XR6580> What.
15:43:59  <XR6580> I care about myself.
15:44:04  <XR6580> But I don't care about anyone.
15:44:19  <XR6580> Yes I am selfish >:[ But I help when people deserve to.
15:44:23  <appe> of course you do.
15:44:29  <dihedral> however if you say, i do not believe this matter will have a negative influence on our world (outside of the USA) and i see no bad to come out of such a treaty ... then be it
15:44:51  <dihedral> however, saying " i am neutral for being neutral and i invest all my energy so nobody can find no bad on me" ... wtf
15:45:08  <XR6580> I haven't said that.
15:45:13  <XR6580> Don't be a dick.
15:45:13  <dihedral> what is your real thought? other than not wanting to have a public view point
15:46:18  <dihedral> if you consider me to be a dick for expecting people to have a mind of their own, i feel sorry for you, but that aint gonna offend me ;-)
15:46:30  <XR6580> Wait
15:46:39  <XR6580> So you say that I am being controlled because I am neutral?
15:46:45  <dihedral> no
15:46:53  <XR6580> Because I don't know if I should go mad at your sentences, you're typing them like stupid
15:47:00  <dihedral> i say you are more focused on being neutral than anything else
15:47:12  <XR6580> And?
15:47:38  <dihedral> rather than taking you point of view and that leading to being neutral ;-)
15:47:57  <planetmaker> tolerance against intolerance leads to ... less freedom
15:47:57  <XR6580> Nothing forces me to express myself to the world.
15:48:05  <XR6580> As it won't change anything.
15:48:19  <dihedral> that could be true, but i would doubt it to be
15:48:23  <planetmaker> and oppression by the greedy and powerful
15:48:57  <dihedral> i would consider a single voice to be more powerful than you might consider
15:49:08  <dihedral> words can be very powerful
15:49:13  <XR6580> Heh, the only problem that I don't give a fuck about anything
15:49:18  <XR6580> But still, I am tolerant.
15:49:30  <dihedral> but why do you not give a fuck?
15:49:39  <XR6580> Because I don't give a fuck
15:50:11  <dihedral> now if you expressed that a little different, i could follow
15:50:35  <XR6580> I have freedom to do everything, but I don't feel to use it.
15:51:10  <dihedral> so you consider you freedom to have its source in you not giving a fuck?
15:51:19  <XR6580> Yes.
15:51:35  <dihedral> then quite frankly all your freedom is, is a lie ;-)
15:51:57  <planetmaker> freedom's source being in inactivity certainly... is not quite right
15:52:08  <planetmaker> but it's a way to exercise existing one
15:52:29  <XR6580> "Hey look, that guy doesnt' do a thing about anything, he's probably not free"
15:52:47  <planetmaker> after all there have to be shepherds and sheep ;-)
15:52:57  <dihedral> lol?
15:53:05  <XR6580> Lol
15:53:15  <XR6580> Okay, I am not free because I don't feel like helping the good or bad.
15:53:20  <dihedral> i do not mean that the person does not feel being free
15:53:24  <appe> he means spot on, old chap.
15:53:30  <dihedral> but actually that person does not know what freedom is
15:53:42  <planetmaker> dihedral: he may know that well.
15:53:55  <planetmaker> But it's not him whom one can depend on maintaining it
15:53:57  <XR6580> Guess what, I know what is freedom, but when you use that freedom, you slowly become not free.
15:54:20  <planetmaker> I challange that assumption, XR6580
15:54:28  <appe> oops
15:54:36  <XR6580> planetmaker: Let me use for someone a weird example
15:54:55  <XR6580> You can take a credit from a bank because you can.
15:54:58  <appe> -he means
15:55:12  <XR6580> But when you take that credit, you are forced to pay it later and therefore you are not free anymore.
15:55:32  <XR6580> I know that's a weird example but I couldn't find any better.
15:55:42  <planetmaker> XR6580: and if you fear any action to have an influence on the future you're not free by the same definition you just used
15:55:50  <planetmaker> sorry, your example thus failed
15:55:58  <XR6580> Has anyone said I am scared of that?
15:56:11  <XR6580> You know? You are kind of a dick.
15:56:18  <planetmaker> @kick XR6580
15:56:18  *** XR6580 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [planetmaker]
15:56:23  <planetmaker> no swearing
15:56:26  *** XR6580 [] has joined #openttd
15:56:28  <planetmaker> no swearing
15:56:33  <planetmaker> and no abuse
15:56:35  <XR6580> Dick is not a swear word, that's a name
15:56:42  <XR6580> Now fuck you faggotmaker
15:56:46  <Yexo> @kban XR6580
15:56:47  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
15:56:47  <planetmaker> @kban XR6580
15:56:49  *** XR6580 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yexo]
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15:57:17  <XR6580> You stupid nigger
15:57:18  <dihedral> spoilsport
15:57:21  <Yexo> @kban XR6580
15:57:22  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
15:57:22  *** XR6580 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yexo]
15:57:31  <appe> I feel i should not have started this discussion..
15:57:37  <Yexo> @kban *
15:57:37  <DorpsGek> Yexo: Error: * is not in #openttd.
15:57:49  <dihedral> *@*adsl* ?
15:57:50  <dihedral> hehe
15:57:51  <Yexo> @ban *
15:58:10  * dihedral waits for mibbit to be used
15:58:21  <dihedral> it was such fun having him around
15:58:28  <dihedral> finally an interesting conversation
15:58:35  <appe> whats a mibbitmibbit
15:58:41  <appe> oops.
15:58:58  <appe> damnit, this 3g lag kills me
15:59:11  <dihedral> did he really use that n word? :-P
15:59:13  <dihedral> lol
15:59:47  <planetmaker> these kind of discussions always end with someone banned it seems ;-)
16:00:03  <dihedral> i wonder why :-P
16:00:16  <dihedral> i was about to ask how old he/she was
16:00:16  <planetmaker> many people cannot agree to disagree
16:00:25  <appe> well, I guess this proves his points about neutrality..
16:00:29  <appe> :D
16:00:52  <planetmaker> yeah... He should have stayed neutral :-P
16:01:01  <appe> Hehe
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16:01:40  * appe is on a train from the fifties
16:02:09  <appe> it feels right.
16:02:25  * appe is a jazz type of guy.
16:03:01  <dihedral> are you free? :-P
16:03:07  <dihedral> I am free because i am neutral
16:03:20  <planetmaker> what is 'neutral'?
16:03:31  <planetmaker> you're with me or against me. Or not?
16:03:38  <planetmaker> :-P
16:03:39  <dihedral> i will not voice my thoughts as i fear that might not leave me in a neutral position
16:03:46  <dihedral> and then i fear to lose my freedom
16:03:55  <dihedral> because i do not give a fuck :-P
16:04:09  <Yexo> I cannot be free anymore since I exercised my freedom to kick-ban that xr6580 guy
16:04:20  <appe> I like my government neutral.
16:04:34  <Yexo> too easy to bash him now
16:04:34  <dihedral> Yexo, you just showed him some more freedom :-P
16:04:46  <Yexo> well, he wasn't very neutral about it
16:04:52  <dihedral> i was bashing him, yet he did not seem to get it :-P
16:05:08  <planetmaker> dihedral: I don't think your argument was valid, though
16:05:13  <dihedral> which one
16:05:24  <planetmaker> He probably knew well what freedom is. Not exercising it doesn't mean not to know it
16:05:27  <planetmaker> nor not to value it
16:05:42  <dihedral> i would not be sure about that
16:05:43  <planetmaker> not exercising any right is exercising freedom
16:06:03  <planetmaker> I don't need to do everything I could do
16:06:06  <planetmaker> (nor can I)
16:06:07  <dihedral> he was more focused on trying to being neutral
16:06:17  <dihedral> than on why he was being neutral
16:06:26  <dihedral> (apart form not giving a damn)
16:06:38  <planetmaker> so he said. Stupid reasons IMHO. But it's exercising freedom
16:06:59  <dihedral> with misleading / wrong motives
16:07:17  <planetmaker> can there be wrong motives? It's his freedom to think how he likes :-)
16:07:25  <dihedral> because it's possible to have a neutral standing without simply not caring about anything
16:07:43  <dihedral> of course there can be wrong motives
16:07:52  <planetmaker> but is that wrong to "not care"?
16:07:56  <planetmaker> why is it wrong?
16:08:22  <dihedral> to not care about certain matters, thats fine
16:08:46  <dihedral> or to not dare to make a judgement as one does not consider oneself to have enough background information
16:09:06  <dihedral> but to not care for the sake of not caring?
16:09:34  <planetmaker> good. and why is that now morally inferior?
16:10:46  <dihedral> to live a lie as you cut out every problem that might exist in this world simply to not know about it in order to have no bad conscience
16:11:19  <planetmaker> I think it's self-deception
16:11:32  <dihedral> exactly
16:12:37  <dihedral> which is what i consider unhealthy
16:13:34  <dihedral> however, if he had a point of view in certain matters (other than 'i do not give a ...') he might come to the same result, and that then is perfectly fine :-P
16:14:04  <planetmaker> quite so
16:15:01  <dihedral> of course i can be wrong in my assumptions :-D
16:17:18  <planetmaker> that's your right to be :-P
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16:26:42  <iconiK> Ahh, the joys of scan lines on a VGA connection, due to the 50 Hz AC frequency. Nice.
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17:40:16  <andythenorth> efening
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17:48:40  <Zuu> TrueBrain: Do you have any plan to resolve a way to bind a GS to a scenario after the scenario is created?
17:49:14  <Zuu> For the tutorial, should the scenario be created with or without the tutorial GS?
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18:34:44  <Terkhen> hello
18:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23824 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD
18:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 82 changes by NG
18:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 24 changes by Parastais
18:45:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:45:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tamil - 83 changes by aswn
18:51:37  <Zuu> Does the string system in OpenTTD support \n or is there a different code for newlines? I'm thinking of GSGoal.Question in particular.
18:52:26  <Zuu> In my sign-based menu I had support for new lines and though that \n was a good marker for new lines, but now I get ?? in the text when using the API to display messages.
18:53:37  <Rubidium> Zuu: use {}
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19:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "berlin main station (upper) must be renewed for 10 million €"
19:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it was just opened 5 years ago...
19:05:05  <SpComb> leaking roof, etc?
19:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> wear and tear on the bridge
19:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "due to the curved bridge, a special construction needed to be developed, but this was not done due to time constraints (must be ready for world cup 2006)
19:06:52  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
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19:13:39  <Zuu> Hmm, using {} only works if the string sits in lang/english.txt. If the string is passed as a literal string to the API, then no line breaks are inserted.
19:13:52  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:14:29  <Alberth> strgen mangles the lang/english.txt strings :p
19:14:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so issue the same stringcode that strgen uses
19:18:05  *** JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:18:22  <Zuu> Or, I should just stick to english.txt as that makes the tutorial translatable :-)
19:19:28  *** JVassie [~James@] has joined #openttd
19:24:17  <Yexo> Zuu: for literal strings using \n might work
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19:25:33  <Zuu> I tried \n but it did turn into "??" on the screen.
19:25:52  <Zuu> As in writing "\n" in the squirrel script.
19:26:05  <Yexo> than it seems putting the string in lang/english.txt is your only option
19:26:07  <Zuu> So that the newline character gets generated.
19:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "Berlin Tegel closes on 2nd June, the new airport in Schönefeld opens on 3rd June. inbetween 600 trucks transport the technical equipment."
19:32:32  <Rubidium> so it's really gone in a little over five months?
19:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently
19:32:52  <Rubidium> but Schoenefeld is pretty open already, isn't it?
19:33:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an "old" airport in Schönefeld already
19:33:58  <Rubidium> I'm talking about the one with a train station
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19:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik the train station at the new airport is already open
19:35:19  <Wolf01> hello
19:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it's already used by construction workers and stuff
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19:36:38  <Jogio> good evening
19:36:39  <Rubidium> well, I've flown to Schoenefeld like 7 months ago
19:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Schönefeld was the airport of east-berlin, while tegel and tempelhof were the airports of west-berlin
19:38:05  <Rubidium> there's also berlin brandenburg
19:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's the new one
19:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it's directly next to the old one
19:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause>,13.503399&spn=0.072948,0.098019&t=h&z=13&vpsrc=6 <-- you see the old airport in the north and the new airport in the south
19:47:16  <Rubidium> so it's just another terminal at SXF
19:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i assume they close the existing terminal
19:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and reroute all the planes to the new one
19:49:01  <Rubidium> yup
19:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> if you look closely, you see the old runway has already been cut by the A113
19:49:17  <Rubidium> to bad they haven't improved the RE/RB frequency ;)
19:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they certainly increase the flight frequency, once they reroute all planes from tegel
19:50:56  <Jogio> who is NG? this guy made some big changes in german translation
19:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause> which there's a slight chance it could be stopped by the constitutional court or the european court for human rights
19:51:26  <Jogio> some are good but he also changed many vehicle names
19:52:00  <Jogio> chimera is now "ChimÀre"
19:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that's a good or bad change
19:53:32  <Jogio> i don't like it
20:45:29  <Jogio> and "GÃŒterwaggon" is now "Warenwagen"
20:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's kinda silly
20:45:57  <Jogio> he don't like "Waggon" it's now all "wagen"
20:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be debatable
20:46:26  <Jogio>
20:46:39  <Jogio> here is link to look
20:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you know in which topic to raise the issue :)
20:48:04  * Alberth was looking for it too, but you already found it :)
20:48:38  <Jogio> Maybe he can't stop if he changed some strings and had to do more ... :-)
20:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> why is that page incapable of displaying utf8?
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20:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- and use this link for only the german change
20:50:25  <Jogio> do you know what a "Verschlagwagen" is?
20:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling NG is oberhÃŒmer
20:50:51  <Jogio> hmm ok
20:51:03  <Jogio> i don't
20:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Jogio: but the general user maybe doesn't
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20:52:23  <lololol> hio
20:52:29  <Alberth> oih
20:52:36  <lololol> hio
20:52:43  <Jogio> "Zyclop" statt "Cyclops" find ich aber z.B gar nicht schlecht
20:52:48  <lololol> lol
20:52:56  <Jogio> *"Zyklop"
20:53:07  <Jogio> sorry forgot to write english
20:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "WÀhrend fÃŒr den Transport von Rindern und anderem Großvieh entweder offene oder gedeckte GÃŒterwagen der Regelbauart Verwendung fanden, wurden fÃŒr Kleinvieh schon im 19. Jahrhundert spezielle Verschlagwagen entwickelt. Der etwa 2 m hohe Laderaum wird hierbei optimal ausgenutzt, indem Schweine, Ziegen und Schafe in zwei Ebenen verladen werden. Bei einigen Wagen waren fÃŒr den Transport von GeflÃŒgel weitere Zwischenböden montierbar."
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20:55:30  <Jogio> ok, learned something new
20:56:26  <Alberth> that's more detailed than expected :)
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20:57:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember how the original wagons look like
20:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> but the ones in the DBSet are not Verschlagwagen, they're regular closed wagons (for large livestock)
20:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. mostly cows)
21:00:21  <Jogio> do you think somewhere cattle is still transported with trains today?
21:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely
21:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> at least not in europe
21:00:37  <Jogio> I think not too
21:00:52  <Jogio> europe is big
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21:06:02  <Belugas> ho... cattle... I read castle :S
21:07:03  <Jogio> a rolling castle
21:09:05  <Belugas> yeah... so imagine how silly the question seemed to be, from my point of view ;)
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21:15:08  <planetmaker> I really wished this NG would communicate *somehow* instead of re-editing all the language file without any comment and discussion
21:17:17  <planetmaker> I'm quite tempted to run at least a partial revert on that
21:17:21  <andythenorth> cattle by train - AU
21:18:29  <planetmaker> "Erweiterungsserver"
21:19:00  <planetmaker> nor do I actually agree with "Verschlagwagen" and "Warenwagen"
21:19:17  <planetmaker> even if technically it can be argued to be correct
21:19:31  <Jogio> hi planetmaker
21:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that we had a discussion about "warenwagen" years ago
21:19:48  <planetmaker> possibly yes
21:19:52  <planetmaker> hi Jogio
21:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess we decided that it was a silly idea
21:20:04  <planetmaker> quite so
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21:21:15  <planetmaker> obviously that person read what we discussed. But did way more
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21:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause>
21:23:35  <Jogio> I think you can't translate things like "chimera" or "wizzowow". Nobody will understand you then when you play multiplayer with english people
21:23:54  <Terkhen> I did not translate them for spanish
21:24:15  <Rubidium> 1) who plays toyland in MP?
21:24:25  <Rubidium> 2) which games last long enough to have maglev in MP?
21:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> s/ in MP//
21:25:06  * Alberth raises hand on the first question with eddi's change
21:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but if NG is really oberhÃŒmer, didn't he recently argue that vehicle names shouldn't be translated at all?
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21:25:27  <planetmaker> Rubidium: every game on our servers?
21:25:52  <xiong> HA. The light bulb glows dimly. That cargodist has the paradoxical result that if a line is unprofitable, you might *add* vehicles and the line becomes profitable.
21:27:34  <Rubidium> don't they usually have NewGRFs and as such no maglev?
21:27:57  <Rubidium> or a NewGRF maglev, which doesn't use the name of the original vehicle
21:28:10  <planetmaker> if we use maglev we usually use the default one
21:28:20  <xiong> Also, since cargo routes from A to B via multiple lines, the profitability of any line depends on the health of the whole connected subgraph. So little is to be gained from studying per-vehicle or per-line profit. (!)
21:28:40  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: Jogio so what do we now about the mis-translated vehicle names?
21:29:02  <Rubidium> food fight?
21:29:05  <planetmaker> I told already once NG quite urgently to discuss bigger changes with the community
21:29:15  <planetmaker> and gave the thread here
21:29:22  <planetmaker> which obviously were read...
21:29:34  <planetmaker> thus I don't get it :S
21:29:49  <Jogio> don't know, reset all names to old? or just the worst?
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21:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably vote for revert. "if it's not broken, don't fix it"
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21:32:59  <planetmaker> I can live though with the translation of the "speaking" names
21:33:37  <planetmaker> but I don't understand "wizzowow rocketeer" -> "Wutschoha Rakete"
21:34:13  <Jogio> maybe he thought he has to be creative and design a better name
21:34:34  <Jogio> but Wizzowow Raketenwagen would sound cool "_"
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21:35:27  <planetmaker> Rocketeer is "Raketenmann"
21:36:24  <planetmaker> what about the Wasserwege -> Wasserstraßen ?
21:36:40  <planetmaker> I prefer Wasserwege slightly. As it's the "Wasserwegenetzwerk"
21:36:48  *** JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:37:03  <planetmaker> though both Wasserwege and Wasserstraßen is acceptable
21:37:25  <Jogio> yeah for me this don't matter
21:38:40  <Jogio> and he translated Recoloursprite in UmfÀrbesprite
21:38:48  <planetmaker> outsch. Where?
21:38:55  <planetmaker> IMHO that's untranslatable
21:39:20  <Jogio> line 1168,1173
21:39:34  <planetmaker> hm
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21:43:45  * Zuu wonders if table.rawget(key) might be a function that has been pulled out of Squirrel in OpenTTD.
21:43:57  <Yexo> don't think so
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21:45:37  <Yexo> nope, definitely not
21:45:56  <planetmaker> Jogio: or is NG your account? ;-)
21:46:32  <planetmaker> I thought I'd see some edits from you the last days (but I know you said you had no account) :-)
21:47:13  <Jogio> no I have my own now
21:47:37  <Jogio> he also changed some things I already changed
21:47:43  <Zuu> It turnes out my code was wrong. :-)
21:48:21  <Zuu> I passed along the name of a table key in the wrong Tutorial step.
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21:55:58  <planetmaker> he's obviously still editing it...
21:59:23  <Jogio> maybe he want to rewrite allstrings
22:00:17  <Jogio> we present a new game "Offen TTD"
22:02:28  <Jogio> can you close his account and display a message to write something in thread in tt-forum if he wants to enter again?
22:02:55  <Alberth> "Offen TTD" cannot be right, in German you merge all words, and this word is already one word in English :p
22:04:57  <Jogio> "GeöffnetTTD"
22:05:15  <Jogio> this better?
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22:06:24  <Terkhen>
22:06:25  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:07:44  <Rubidium> Terkhen: they should start suing the mother companies of say... and (and the mother companies of their affiliated sites)
22:08:04  <planetmaker> sounds good, Jogio ;-)
22:08:05  <Terkhen> it's quite significant that this happens the day after the blackout :)
22:08:30  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
22:10:02  <Rubidium> hi frosch123
22:10:32  <frosch123> evening :)
22:10:51  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
22:12:01  <planetmaker> so... do we use (as now) -waggon and -transporter mixed? Or use -wagen?
22:13:02  <planetmaker> he replaces all 'waggon' by 'wagen'
22:13:25  <Jogio> I think transporter only for road vehicles
22:13:43  <Jogio> let it as "waggon"
22:14:38  <planetmaker> it's a bit mixed. But let's check ingam
22:14:40  <planetmaker> e
22:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> really, i haven't played with original vehicles in ages
22:19:17  <planetmaker>
22:20:21  <Jogio> i think changing all names to the old is the best. Maybe he don't change things randomly next time if he sees it is all the same as before again
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22:21:53  <planetmaker> There's a point in making it more uniform. Though it's also not the case in the English
22:23:35  <planetmaker> I mean... I don't mind change. It's not necessarily bad. But we IMHO have quite a healthy way to discuss the bigger changes to existing stuff for the German translation. And... we should make use of it
22:23:54  <planetmaker> and yes, I hope he'll recognize it.
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22:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: "the mega conspiracy"
22:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm willing to bet my money that in the next few days/weeks/months this will hold as a prime example on why we need more SOPA-like laws
22:33:41  <Terkhen> yes :)
22:34:29  <Terkhen> a stunt to counter the blackout publicity :P
22:34:45  <planetmaker> anyway... sent NG again an e-mail
22:36:39  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:37:54  * Terkhen has no clue if it had any visibility, though
22:37:55  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I fear it'll be money lost, if I'd bet against you ;-)
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22:46:17  <Rubidium> really... why only megaupload? Why not
22:47:05  <Rubidium> I guess it's bad "news" that the SOPA proponents are then going to be sueing themselves
22:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be interesting to see a class action lawsuit now by all people who had *legal* content on that site
22:48:35  <Rubidium> I guess there's a clause stating that megaupload may remove content
22:49:32  <Rubidium> but actually... being able to sue megaupload for piracy now is also a good example that SOPA isn't needed, after all it's already possible with the current law
22:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it is... all the security law stuff since 9/11 is just publicity stunts... nothing really changed...
22:56:31  <Jogio> good night
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23:16:36  <Terkhen> good night
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23:51:01  <Zuu> Hmm, GS can't read orders of vehicles
23:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you need to switch to the company first?
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