Log for #openttd on 25th January 2012:
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00:00:17  <cypher> Nobody? :(
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00:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> cypher: lots of settings cannot be changed, others can
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00:01:52  <cypher> Eddi|zuHause : and which one is this? When I save that game, load it on my localhost and then chage the station spread, it works (locally). When we stop the server and change the station spread, it doesn't work. Could it be done somehow?
00:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know?
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00:02:39  <cypher> Well I thought since you started answering...
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00:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> you can, obviously, upload your locally changed game to the server
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00:02:57  <cypher> That I will try.
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02:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> we *really* need to increase the default timeouts
02:55:51  <Eddi|zuHause> also, we need a "connection timed out" error message
02:57:38  <Asteconn> 480 is pretty generous in my view
02:57:59  <Asteconn> Also - in the UKRS - what do brake vans do? Or are they just eyecandy?
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03:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik early trains need them, if they reach a certain length
03:04:41  <Asteconn> Ah righty
03:04:51  <Asteconn> You wouldn't happen to know what length would you?
03:05:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no
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03:06:18  <Asteconn> Righto
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03:13:25  <Asteconn> Is it usually this quiet in here? o.ÃŽ Or is everyone just idling because they're playing TTD? =3
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03:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it is usually that quiet at 3:30 AM
03:23:57  <Asteconn> Most of the populace European?
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03:47:25  <Asteconn> What are everyone's preferred GRFs then?
03:53:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Only one I use consistently is trams
03:53:29  <Rhamphoryncus> And there's several of those.  Dunno which ones are the good ones ;)
03:53:36  <kais58> my server runs OpenGFX+
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03:57:09  <Asteconn> I've never managed to get OpenGFX+ to work actually
03:57:18  <Asteconn> Question marks everywhere D:
04:00:24  <Asteconn> As I cannot remember off hand, does UKRS include any 3rd rail stuff?
04:06:02  <Asteconn> And another odd question: why are some of my trains of the same sort in slightly different liveries?
04:06:37  <Asteconn> I have 4 Brush type 4s sporting 2 different paint jobs
04:09:04  <Rhamphoryncus> Some newgrf sets randomly select different appearances
04:09:28  <Rhamphoryncus> I've only noticed it for horse-drawn buses, but I'm sure it could be done for other vehicles
04:11:11  <Asteconn> Ahhh righty! Awesome
04:18:44  <Rhamphoryncus> Is there any existing/cheap way to tell if a vehicle is at a station loading/waiting on the timetable?  I'm hesitant to loop over all the vehicles every time I do an update (potentially once a tick, for a very busy route)
04:24:05  <Rhamphoryncus> I could keep a running count, but then I'd have to track down all the ways a vehicle can change what it's doing..
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07:01:02  <Rubidium> Jupix: did you actually see ? Me being worried about the size and such, next post basically saying "I don't care, I'm just doing what I want to do"
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07:50:25  <shoehorn> are there any devs around?
07:55:39  <planetmaker> @topic get -3
07:55:39  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
07:55:50  <planetmaker> moin
07:56:12  <Mazur> Hi, Planny.
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09:45:22  <dihedral> good morning
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14:25:07  <Jupix> Rubidium: it's his prototype, you shouldn't take it so seriously, nor label the whole of 32bpp under what he does
14:26:01  <Jupix> people experiment with stuff, doesn't mean they expect others to adapt their ways to that experiment
14:30:08  <Jupix> but! it's good that you posted there
14:33:20  <lugo> ehm, what's the limit in size for forum attachments? nothing in the faq?
14:33:45  <lugo> "hallo erstmal"
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15:02:16  <planetmaker> lugo, iirc around 5 or 6 MByte. But don't take my word on it.
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15:07:42  <Jupix> planetmaker: - your comments on chapter 7.5?
15:10:26  <planetmaker> I'll have a look tonight
15:10:49  <Jupix> ok
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15:30:38  <michi_cc> Jupix: I would avoid calling the zoom levels z0, z1 and z2 where possible, as that nomenclature is bound to fail as soon as there is e.g. a x8 or a x1.5 or whatever, and doesn't cover zoom-out either.
15:32:31  <Rubidium> I think o2, o4, o8, i2, i4 are what peter1138 thought of
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15:37:21  <Jupix> that's a really quick rename if/when there is ez sprite loading, for now it's a lot less confusing to stick with the existing naming convention that works with geektoo's patch
15:38:15  <Jupix> again I fail at inline editing
15:38:34  <Jupix> I meant to say when there is ez sprite loading in trunk and there is a naming convention for those sprites
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17:45:34  <planetmaker> Jupix: and what are those "512 x 512 pixels" you talk in section 7.5 about?
17:46:09  <planetmaker> A tile in OpenTTD is never square and never has equal extend. And if you count pixels on a diagonal line... how do you count them?
17:46:24  <planetmaker> Especially if it's not 45° wrt the screen but... like 30°?
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18:08:52  <__ln__> "Kassel, the only East German city in the west"
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18:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that isn't really funny if you have no context
18:17:43  <__ln__> no particular context was expressed by the person who said that
18:18:36  <__ln__> so i typed it here to find out if anyone knows why :)
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18:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: well, you can make such a statement about any city
18:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and after you've made up the statement out of thin air, you make up a statistic that founds it...
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18:36:49  <__ln__> soon enough that statement will be found with a google search in openttd logs, which consequently proves the statement.
18:37:52  <planetmaker> Jupix: to give you an idea of what _I_ think the paper should look like:
18:38:01  <planetmaker> note the many omissions I made
18:38:06  <__ln__> this was the only context:
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18:38:43  <planetmaker> hm... that was intended to be under my own user pages there...
18:40:13  <planetmaker> <-- there
18:43:45  * appe delivers poop on random doorstep.
18:51:30  <cypher> I hate the regional investigator! He's a complete jackass!
19:07:44  <xiong> __ln__, Perhaps you should insert the statement into Wikipedia, citing openttd. Then it will become a Known Fact.
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19:12:07  <peter1138> hmm
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19:12:42  <peter1138> Jupix, tar format for 32bpp might not even remain ;p
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19:13:05  <Jupix> oh, I expect it to go away
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19:14:49  <peter1138> what do you anticipate in its place?
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19:16:21  <Jupix> base set and newgrf's on top of it
19:17:13  <Terkhen> hello
19:18:33  <Jupix> planetmaker: I like the "what this project is not" part
19:18:51  <planetmaker> @logs
19:18:52  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
19:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Jupix: not-goals are a very important part of a design process
19:21:15  <Jupix> I think in a couple days I'll be withdrawing my proposal and having to think whether to work a new pretty drastically new one
19:21:29  <Jupix> s/new/different
19:21:45  <Jupix> the vote is heavily against
19:22:01  <planetmaker> it's mixing different things
19:22:08  <planetmaker> - graphics guidelines
19:22:14  <planetmaker> - project organisation
19:22:28  <planetmaker> - 32bpp implementation in a (broken) patch
19:22:44  <planetmaker> - future OpenTTD implementation and speculative details for that
19:22:57  <planetmaker> - dictionary of terms
19:23:14  <planetmaker> - basesets vs. newgrfs
19:23:33  <Aygar> There is a bug in the doxygen documentation generation of the source; under what category should I file the bug report?
19:24:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23849 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp:
19:24:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#5008]: when the network is lagging, you try to copy a vehicle's order
19:24:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: but accidentally create a station order and then copy the vehicle's order
19:24:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: (before the first command is executed) one could trigger an assertion from the
19:24:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: pool. Simplify the ancient code and make it more fool proof, even though it
19:24:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: could stop copying a vehicle's orders slightly earlier than it would now... but
19:24:14  <planetmaker> - oh, and a history section
19:24:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: who has come near that limit and really needed that many orders?
19:24:24  <Jupix> planetmaker: your point?
19:25:14  <planetmaker> it's a vote on a somewhat fuzzy vision. Mixed with some more or less technical details where some matter and some don't
19:25:30  <planetmaker> the point is: not a good thing to vote on as a whole
19:25:54  <Rubidium> but the vote doesn't tell why they are against it, right?
19:25:57  <planetmaker> some might need discussion or agreement. Some just need be followed by the person who actually codes the thing
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19:26:10  <Rubidium> maybe they are against it because it doesn't contain "curved corners"?
19:27:19  <planetmaker> And IMHO the goal "32bpp blender files with GPL license" needs not a vote really.
19:27:25  <Jupix> Rubidium: some people posted what they thought was wrong, and some of those I tried to fix. whether those were the "no" votes I don't know
19:28:12  <Jupix> planetmaker: it's the vision of the people mentioned in the first chapters ... whether it's fuzzy or not, I'd say no, you say yes, so I don't know
19:28:41  <Jupix> planetmaker: I think it's all relevant and there's a lot of confusion in all those things you listed, so that's why they're touched upon
19:28:46  <planetmaker> the vision may not be fuzzy. But it's not... what you can vote on
19:28:51  <planetmaker> or shouldn't
19:28:52  <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether everything should be "drawn" as blenders. I can easily imaging that drawing the rail by hand is easier
19:29:07  <Jupix> Rubidium: that's taken into account
19:29:12  <planetmaker> how?
19:29:20  <planetmaker> where?
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19:30:06  <Jupix> in the de facto "official" process :D
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19:30:23  <Jupix> so nowhere, since my proposal didn't pass
19:30:55  <Jupix> IIRC the ground tiles were all photoshop
19:31:20  <Jupix> the sources not being blender models or such is taken into account in the definition of sources
19:31:40  <Jupix> though the definition of sources is in that spec which didn't pass
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19:34:12  <Jupix> I'm a bit burnt out from working the latest 4 revisions. as far as I'm concerned all of it is probably going on a back burner for a while and someone else can do what they want
19:34:51  <Jupix> you could just instate your proposal immediately since you have dev status :P
19:35:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23850 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt polish.txt portuguese.txt):
19:35:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 28 changes by OliTTD
19:35:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
19:35:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 55 changes by JayCity
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19:40:11  <planetmaker> Jupix: where does that change anything? And... what I wrote is imho the essence of what you wrote. So nothing new. Just cut down to what _I_ think is the important core
19:40:30  <planetmaker> without any distractions and side tracks
19:41:21  <Alberth> evening pm
19:41:25  <Jupix> do you agree with its content?
19:41:37  <Jupix> I'm in a lag nightmare
19:41:42  <Jupix> ...
19:42:13  <planetmaker> I agree to what I extracted from it ;-)
19:42:31  <Jupix> yes I mean the content of what you put on the wiki
19:43:10  <planetmaker> That's why I wrote it.
19:43:40  <planetmaker> it's not nicely written. just in 10 minutes or so
19:43:45  <planetmaker> so it will have it's rough edges
19:44:46  <frosch123> planetmaker: maybe add a sentence to "scale", that scale may not even be consistent within the same object
19:44:55  <frosch123> i.e. horizontal scale vs. vertical scale
19:45:30  <planetmaker> good point. Though I meant that, it should be explicit
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19:46:38  <planetmaker> like now, frosch123?
19:47:36  <peter1138> pom te pom
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19:49:53  <frosch123> :)
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19:50:56  <Jupix> planetmaker: my IRC shell is basically unusable right now due to lag, but I'm just gonna say you should set whatever you have there as "official" due to your developerness and because few else seem to care to do it
19:51:30  <Jupix> stuff like how it's laid out is secondary to the content
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19:54:55  <Jupix> it appears very different to what I had and I can't read it completely at this mo to find out what content there is from my proposal. if it's similar, good, because I thought the content of mine was for the best, if it's different, so be it
19:56:08  <Jupix> I'll read it word by word tomorrow or friday
19:57:17  <planetmaker> I really think we want the same thing. The only difference might be that we have a slightly different view how to go there
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19:57:40  <andythenorth> efening
19:57:52  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
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19:58:07  <andythenorth> what is today's discussion / argument / monologue?
19:59:13  <cypher> Just wondering if there's any production limit on industries...
19:59:29  <Alberth> there is
20:00:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: you usually take care of the 'monologue' part :p
20:00:30  <cypher> Alberth : and what that production limit may be exactly?
20:00:53  <Alberth> around 27,000
20:01:00  <planetmaker> 255*8 or *9
20:01:03  <planetmaker> depends on month
20:01:43  <andythenorth> Jupix: I'm gonna have to ask you for those TPS reports
20:01:49  <cypher> planetmaker 255*9? Look at the screenshot...
20:02:06  <cypher> Alberth : what happens if the industry should produce more and hits the limit?
20:02:08  <Alberth> cypher: scaled by the unit of production
20:02:44  <planetmaker> cypher: and what about the screenshot? What shall I notice?
20:03:14  <cypher> 10K production, which in my opinion is a bit more than 255*9. I'm just wondering what would happen.
20:03:15  <Alberth> cypher: no idea, I never got further than a few 1,000 uints
20:03:21  <cypher> :(
20:03:43  <Alberth> but the system just won't transfer cargo any faster
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20:04:03  <planetmaker> cypher: yes. It's a secondary industry. There more is feasible
20:04:10  <planetmaker> maybe not more than 2**16
20:04:14  <cypher> Oh.
20:04:23  <Alberth> so likely it is not accepted or it is stockpiled
20:04:26  <planetmaker> I'd have to look at the code to be sure
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20:04:36  <planetmaker> Alberth: it's a default industry... so all is accepted
20:04:52  <Alberth> ok, so it goes up in smoke then :)
20:04:56  <planetmaker> and immediately processed
20:05:08  <planetmaker> I hope the sawmill doesn't produce too much smoke, though ;-)
20:05:15  <cypher> Alberth : it will transfer faster. There is no stockpiling that can't be solved by buying a few gazillion ships ships.
20:05:17  <Alberth> planetmaker: until you bring more than the limit
20:05:18  <cypher> planetmaker : what? :D
20:05:57  <Alberth> afaik something like 255 units every tick or so
20:06:00  <planetmaker> cypher: let me find you a game with saw mills...
20:06:07  <planetmaker> @calc 255*8
20:06:07  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2040
20:06:18  <cypher> So you're concerned about the amount of smoke from the sawmill, but didn't even notice that riddiculous pile of ships in the top left corner.
20:06:33  <Alberth> planetmaker: multiplied by the unit of cargo perhaps?
20:06:43  <planetmaker> no. the unit of wood is 1
20:06:51  <planetmaker> and of goods at most 2
20:06:56  <planetmaker> but might be 1, too
20:07:08  <planetmaker> but it's production upon delivery
20:07:13  <frosch123> iirc for secondary industries the max production is also affected by the number of tiles the industry has
20:07:14  <Alberth> diamonds seem to be units of 16?
20:07:15  <planetmaker> thus... it might simply not be limited
20:07:20  <frosch123> (something completely weird actually)
20:07:51  <cypher> frosch123 : is there any docs about how exactly this works?
20:08:03  <Alberth> print the source code :)
20:08:05  <andythenorth> @calc 55536 * 9
20:08:05  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 499824
20:08:16  <andythenorth> @calc 65536 * 9
20:08:16  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 589824
20:08:25  <frosch123> 255 units * number of tiles * 9
20:08:28  <frosch123> per month
20:08:35  <andythenorth> wtf?
20:08:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Huh.  Why is a day 74 ticks rather than 72?
20:08:47  * andythenorth missed that bit of the original industry code :o
20:08:52  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: we borrowed 2
20:09:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: huh?
20:09:08  <Alberth> @calc 27000 / (9*255)
20:09:08  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 11.7647058824
20:09:16  <planetmaker> cypher: check out this savegame:
20:09:17  <frosch123> @calc 65536 / 74
20:09:17  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 885.621621622
20:09:35  <Alberth> @calc 27000 / 74
20:09:35  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 364.864864865
20:09:37  <planetmaker> there's a max. And we needed 6 sawmills to reach 100k
20:09:47  <planetmaker> but they were sufficient ;-)
20:10:02  <frosch123> the limit is TransportIndustryGoods
20:11:00  <cypher> planetmaker : missing files, and they won't autodownload :(
20:11:49  <planetmaker> yes... <-- it uses some old NewGRFs
20:15:40  <Rubidium> @base 10 16 885
20:15:40  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 375
20:16:01  <Rubidium> @base 10 16 74
20:16:01  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4A
20:16:14  <Rubidium> he probably lived on 4A ;)
20:16:22  <cypher> planetmaker : this is the most riddiculous thing i have ever seen in OpenTTD.
20:16:29  <planetmaker> :-)
20:16:43  <planetmaker> goal: transport 100k goods. We made it ;-)
20:16:46  <cypher> I mean... is that still a game? :D
20:17:06  <planetmaker> well, yes, it's fun :-)
20:17:36  <planetmaker> we have there also other games... like game #200 or 201 are... a bit extreme, too
20:18:01  <planetmaker> #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 26 | Trains: 2666 (PSG#219) - 2522 (PZG#5) - ( 3000 (PSG#180) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 200,169 (PZG#13) | World Pop: 6,150,671 (PSG#201)
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20:20:27  <Alberth> cypher: that's what openttdcoop does, build extreme setups and other weird things. You should read their website :)
20:20:45  <planetmaker> :-P
20:20:48  <cypher> Alberth : I'm not sure that I want to :-D
20:21:24  <planetmaker> You can (maybe) get back your sanity at the exit :-P
20:21:59  <Alberth> they have quite useful techniques for doing things in a network, like handling priority at a junction
20:22:00  <planetmaker> But in reality we just love to build together big train networks. Thus we agree on a common plan. And then build it
20:22:27  <planetmaker> And yes, we might use some advanced techniques. Which could also sometimes pass as cheating the path finder ;-)
20:23:15  <Alberth> or make large terminus stations with good performance
20:24:59  <planetmaker> yeah. That's... a tricky thing. A nice challenge :-)
20:26:02  <planetmaker> My personally favourite game style is a regional setup: one, two handful of regions with their local networks. They bring passengers to a hub central to each region. They then connected by a high-capacity intercity network
20:26:22  <planetmaker> makes good building for many. Different people can build different styles of local networks
20:26:31  <planetmaker> But it's still all one big picture :-)
20:26:50  <planetmaker> And it allows to compare different building techniques nicely how they perform under (heavy) load
20:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... trying to encode the turning states in the sprite is difficult...
20:26:56  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: I don't understand 27000 related to.  In fact, it appears that nothing would even notice if I changed DAY_TICKS to 24.  The only possible problem is I'd have to change the 885 multiplier in newgrf.cpp, and they could conceivably be dependant on it being a multiple of 885.
20:27:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: animation frame?
20:27:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no.
20:28:24  <cypher> planetmaker : just saw game 201. One thing is that it almost crashed my computer.
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20:28:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: assume two wood wagons, one is already turned, the other is not. if the wood spans two wagons, both wagons must be coded as one sprite
20:28:43  <cypher> Second thing is, I now conclude that you guys are weird.
20:28:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like fun :) :P
20:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: another example is the early prussian electrics, which consist of three very short parts, which would be difficult as single parts
20:30:18  <andythenorth> did I mention that I think you're insane?
20:30:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you're insane
20:30:38  <planetmaker> cypher: both may well be true ;-)
20:30:38  <andythenorth> there, done
20:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> did i mention that i think i'm insane?
20:31:28  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm definitely insane
20:33:02  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause, Rhamphoryncus: as insane as thinking you are a bot?
20:33:14  <Rhamphoryncus> Who says I'm not?
20:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> DorpsGek: almost :)
20:33:38  * Rhamphoryncus hums boten anna
20:33:49  <DorpsGek> Rhamphoryncus: i can smell bots
20:34:15  <Rhamphoryncus> How's my odour?  Am I pungent enough?
20:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> HA... IT HAPPENED. german government party CDU uses Megaupload to justify a SOPA-like law
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20:52:23  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: if only governments supported a SOHA-like law (stop online hypocracy act)
20:53:12  <Rubidium> e.g. be punished for saying a particular application is totally ruining your profit, while (still) distributing said application for many years
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21:09:08  <Belugas> hoo... BestBuy has a flyer announcing Asus Tranformer Prime
21:10:53  <frosch123> hmm, am i too young or to old to not know what that is?
21:11:27  <planetmaker> probably you live on the wrong continent. I've no clue either. But then... our age is not grossly different ;-)
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21:13:06  <Rubidium> isn't that just some new computer or so?
21:15:04  <andythenorth> when will newgrf smoke be done?
21:15:21  <frosch123> when you add fire to it
21:16:00  <andythenorth> frosch123: you had a spec
21:16:01  <andythenorth> somewhere
21:16:06  <andythenorth> why don't you rummage for it>
21:16:08  <andythenorth> ?
21:16:39  <XeryusTC> <- iÂŽll just leave that here
21:16:43  <frosch123> i don't think i had a spec for smoke :)
21:16:46  <andythenorth> gah
21:16:48  <andythenorth> avaz
21:16:58  * andythenorth rummages
21:17:20  <andythenorth>
21:17:28  <andythenorth> 'spec' is approximate term
21:17:53  <andythenorth> I think it died because (as happens) it became over complicated
21:18:13  <andythenorth> e.g. 'need' for newgrf effect vehicles, 'need' to replace industry smoke with this etc
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21:19:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: newgrf smoke vehicles were already planned 7 years ago :p
21:19:26  <Eddi|zuHause> can't be that hard...
21:19:30  <andythenorth> so was world peace :)
21:19:36  <andythenorth> newgrf smoke vehicles are overkill
21:19:55  <andythenorth> maybe Eddi|zuHause could use them to draw logs for vehicles though
21:20:00  <frosch123> the specs still state that livery overriding an engine with itself can be used to specify helicopter rotos and later visual effects :p
21:20:02  <andythenorth> they *will* be abused :P
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21:20:35  <andythenorth> how about something simpler?
21:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> could be used for sails
21:20:54  <andythenorth> could be used to composite sprites for vehicles like ships
21:21:01  <andythenorth> providing cargo sprites for example
21:21:15  <andythenorth> single-tick animation cycle
21:21:22  <andythenorth> not a good idea
21:21:44  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: but the wind always comes from the same direction, so you van draw sails statically
21:21:50  <Alberth> *can
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21:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but then you need to repeat the sail animation for each loading stage and cargo
21:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: same argument could be used to make rotors "static"
21:23:50  <andythenorth> hmm
21:23:58  <andythenorth> I could fix ship smoke by drawing it into the sprites
21:24:05  <andythenorth> probably more likely to succeed
21:24:20  <andythenorth> let's see
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21:27:02  <andythenorth> 6 smoke sprites
21:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that'll fail on turning
21:27:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can handle that
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21:28:15  <andythenorth> @calc 6 * 4
21:28:15  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 24
21:28:25  <andythenorth> how many speed states should I provide?
21:28:28  <andythenorth> slow / fast?
21:28:32  <andythenorth> slow / medium / fast?
21:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how do you want to ensure the already-emitted smoke stays in place when the ship turns?
21:29:03  <andythenorth> draw it
21:29:15  <andythenorth> store the previous angle
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21:29:24  <andythenorth> no
21:29:34  <andythenorth> 255 animation frames available?
21:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and moving when the ship accelerates?
21:29:57  <andythenorth> change the distance the smoke sprite is drawn at
21:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this is the point where i tell you that you're insane?
21:30:09  <andythenorth> how many angle-specific sprites do I need?
21:30:15  <andythenorth> 8?
21:30:22  <andythenorth> hmm
21:30:29  <andythenorth> what if the ship turns, then turns again?
21:30:33  <andythenorth> that's a harder case
21:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's NO way that this will ever work
21:31:21  <andythenorth> what choice is there?
21:31:28  <andythenorth> (1) do nothing :)
21:31:32  <andythenorth> (2) do this :)
21:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have you considered just emitting smoke from one chimney?
21:31:58  <andythenorth> yes
21:32:01  <andythenorth> it fails
21:32:10  <andythenorth> no z index
21:32:20  <andythenorth> is at least one of the problems
21:32:30  <andythenorth> the code can handle a z index btw, I tested
21:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so why not fix that first?
21:33:04  <andythenorth> because it was decided already that ad-hoc fixes won't be used for this
21:33:20  <andythenorth> a full newgrf-effect-vehicles spec is needed
21:33:26  <andythenorth> to avoid potential future cruft
21:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, a spec, but that doesn't mean that all of it has to be implemented at once
21:34:04  <andythenorth> e.g. the case was let's not build hysterical raisins
21:34:51  <andythenorth> are you sure It won't work in pure sprites?
21:35:13  <andythenorth> I'm not doing load sprites in FISH
21:35:30  <andythenorth> so I have 4 sprites for ships moving, 8 angles, 6 smoke sprites, and 8 'ship turned' angles to encode
21:35:38  <andythenorth> @calc 4*8*6*8
21:35:38  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1536
21:36:01  <andythenorth> if GIMP scripting could be figured out, it might be possible to automate that
21:36:08  <andythenorth> @1536 / 8
21:36:16  <andythenorth> @calc 1536 /8
21:36:16  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 192
21:36:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23851 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: infrastructure cache could get out of sync when overbuilding a drive through road stop
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21:36:36  <andythenorth> I currently have 12 sprite rows per ship
21:36:41  <andythenorth> 192 isn't that many more
21:36:58  <andythenorth> I can probably write a code generator or templating to handle the nfo
21:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> thanks, i'll have nightmares about this now...
21:38:20  <andythenorth> if you solve logs, you could patch HEQS logging trucks :P
21:42:10  <andythenorth> if gimp scripting can be figured out, we could avoid touching the smoke code at all
21:42:13  <andythenorth> hmm
21:42:17  <andythenorth> or PIL
21:42:27  <planetmaker> gimp scripting is not terribly difficult
21:42:36  <planetmaker> let's say... I use it
21:42:43  <planetmaker> to export the proper sprites
21:42:45  <andythenorth> if the vehicle + all cargos are in one png, we could simply duplicate the png for each animation frame needed
21:43:01  <andythenorth> we need to feed it the co-ordinates to place smoke at for each angle of the vehicle
21:43:20  <andythenorth> so we'd have vehicle_smoke_frame_1.png, vehicle_smoke_frame_2.png etc
21:43:38  <planetmaker> just make a separate layer where the smoke is adjusted relative to the vehicle
21:43:48  <andythenorth> I'd want to script it
21:43:50  <planetmaker> and then it's a solved problem
21:43:55  <andythenorth> doing it by hand is a bit insane
21:44:03  <andythenorth> and scripting it makes it available to all sets
21:44:17  <andythenorth> it would be better to solve this in code
21:44:28  <planetmaker> no. Only those which use the exact template
21:44:40  <planetmaker> and then they could just as well use the same 4 layers of slightly shifted smoke
21:45:22  <planetmaker> and those smoke layers could be overlayed onto each vehicle, of course
21:45:27  <andythenorth> hmm
21:45:33  <andythenorth> we could open multiple files and merge them
21:45:36  <planetmaker> though I think that's a very bad solution to do it that way
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21:45:51  <planetmaker> like adding smoke vehicle-side
21:46:25  <andythenorth> it's viable though
21:46:57  <andythenorth> is it worth it?
21:47:07  <andythenorth> I wouldn't find it fun to do tbh
21:48:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Is there an easy way to print out a destination name for debugging?
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21:53:14  <andythenorth> hm
21:53:32  * andythenorth tests
21:53:38  <andythenorth> the smoke will move with the vehicle
21:53:47  <andythenorth> this is sub-optimal
21:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: string handling is definitely "not easy"
21:54:27  <andythenorth> I'll need bigger sprites
21:54:31  <andythenorth> that means new templates
21:54:52  <andythenorth> and also...FISH already flickers because the sprites extend beyond bounding box
21:54:59  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: plenty of l10n stuff I could understand, but the station name itself?  Once generated it should be fixed (and the user can edit it arbitrarily).  So where is it?
21:55:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: no. it doesn't work this way
21:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: the station name is consisting of parts, which are reconstructed every time it is displayed
21:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: that way it can react e.g. on town name changes
21:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: only if the user actually edits it, it is stored
21:56:42  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh.  So I need to go do a trivial edit to make it easy
21:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: i'd say you should rather copy-paste the station sign code
21:57:52  <Rhamphoryncus> ... for a debug printf?
21:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:58:36  <Rhamphoryncus> So I should start rolling my own debugging lib
21:59:45  <Rubidium> SetDParam(0, stationid); char buffer[512]; GetString(buffer, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buffer); printf("%s\n", buffer);
21:59:59  <Rubidium> no need to copy code; that's only making it harder/more difficult
22:01:27  <Rhamphoryncus> That's still a bit obtuse, but it's survivable
22:02:36  <Rubidium> oh... why do I now want to play some Mike Oldfield?
22:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: suggestion: remove the dep call completely, and replace it with a "find -iname '*.png'"
22:03:57  <Rubidium> well, the strings aren't meant to be printed to the console, so it's not optimised for that workflow
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22:12:38  <andythenorth> sna
22:12:40  <andythenorth> meh
22:13:59  <andythenorth> good night
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22:29:32  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that then assumes that all pngs are automatically needed
22:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's a better approximation than waiting 2 minutes for an exact result
22:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: alternatively, i can make the generator script create the dep file
22:32:05  <planetmaker> one could also just not use a dep check at all
22:36:00  <andythenorth> dep check was added for a reason
22:36:03  <andythenorth> I forget it though
22:37:44  <Aygar> Is the last tile in the map tile array always MP_VOID?
22:39:56  <Yexo> all tiles at the south-east and south-west border are MP_VOID
22:40:13  <Yexo> if you play with custom map borders all tiles at the north-east and north-west borders are also MP_VOID
22:40:17  <Rubidium> what is always in this context? I remember TTDPatch savegames messing with some of the void types
22:40:34  <frosch123> yeah, ttdp stores data on those tiles
22:40:47  <frosch123> but i guess not in the tiletype, but in the other bits
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22:40:58  <Rubidium> so the tiles might not always be exactly the same as the MP_VOID tiles generated by a new game
22:42:01  <Belugas> Best Buy is a store, and Asus Transformer Prime is an android tablet, pretty cool from what we can gather :)
22:42:15  <Belugas> and not, it's not a north amercian stuff, it's mondial
22:42:31  <Belugas> and yes, i have a big case of lagging :)
22:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "ten minutes before work ends"?
22:51:17  <Aygar> If the last tile in the map tile array never has its tile_loop_proc() run could that be a problem?
22:52:08  <frosch123> i remember a fs task about that... was that your patch?
22:52:17  <Aygar> nope
22:52:43  <Aygar> just thinking about alternate ways to make it work.
22:52:54  <frosch123> well, then.. there is a fs task about making the tileloop's pattern less noticeable. it just misses the last tile on the map :p
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22:53:46  <frosch123> the most imporant part about this is, that every tile needs to be processed every 256 ticks
22:54:05  <frosch123> not more often and not less often
22:54:23  <frosch123> the order is not important though
22:55:17  <frosch123> (but obviously the order must stay constant, if the frequence for a single tile must be 1/(256 ticks))
22:56:42  <Aygar> frosch123: okay, thanks for the info
22:58:32  <Yexo> create a list with all valid TileIndexes on game start. Shuffle that list. Run tileloop on 1/256 part of that list every tick
22:58:45  <Yexo> really random order every game :)
22:59:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23852 /trunk/Doxyfile: -Fix [FS#5011]: doxygen went haywire on FINAL token
22:59:30  <frosch123> random might look weird :p
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22:59:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23853 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: several incorrect @files
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23:04:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, we just need something like the 1/x function in GF(map_size)
23:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> where GF is the galois-field
23:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "random" in the sense that it does not have a clear pattern, and it's "not random" in the sense that it has no repetitions
23:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and it always exists, because map_size is a power of two
23:11:19  <andythenorth> ho ho
23:11:54  <andythenorth> which will be done first?  CETS or BANDIT? :D
23:12:33  * andythenorth has no artist currently
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23:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> we have two artist, but they're kinda "not fast enough"
23:15:37  * andythenorth has to hope for DanMacK to get enthused
23:16:45  <andythenorth> hmm
23:16:53  <andythenorth> purchase cost by formula
23:16:56  <andythenorth> how interestink
23:17:12  <andythenorth> truck costs are remarkably boring
23:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i do something like cost = weight*power^(1/4)
23:18:23  <andythenorth> yeah, FISH has algorithms similart
23:18:40  <andythenorth> number crew * tonnage * (river || sea) etc
23:18:50  <andythenorth> foo * blah
23:19:16  <andythenorth> trucks might be vehicle life * weight * blah
23:19:23  <andythenorth> number axles?
23:19:26  <andythenorth> hp?
23:19:38  <andythenorth> cab type (sleeper = more)
23:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> don't include stuff that isn't modelled anyway
23:20:24  <andythenorth> you mean stuff without a game prop?
23:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> stuff that has no gameplay effect
23:21:10  * andythenorth will disagree most politely with that :)
23:21:20  <andythenorth> cost has a gameplay effect in it's own right ;)
23:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS compile time: real    7m15.717s user    7m8.896s sys     0m5.610s
23:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> with custom dep check: real    4m48.278s user    4m42.811s sys     0m4.486s
23:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> with custom dep check, nfo output via grfcodec: real    2m50.047s user    2m45.567s sys     0m3.750s
23:24:58  <andythenorth> BANDIT 11s
23:25:49  <andythenorth> hmm
23:26:08  <andythenorth> I thought removing a dir of 40 files might speed it up
23:26:13  <andythenorth> no difference at all :o
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23:29:42  <andythenorth> bye
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23:32:17  <planetmaker> good night
23:33:19  <Terkhen> good night
23:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm committing makefile changes now, any suggestions on how to make them in a way they "survive" a makefile update?
23:34:08  <planetmaker> change
23:34:28  <planetmaker> otherwise: no
23:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, i have to remove lines from Makefile.nml
23:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or can i just "override" them from
23:36:45  <planetmaker> I guess that doesn't work
23:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i just pushed my changes
23:37:04  <planetmaker> I suggest to just change it in place and not care about compatibility
23:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have ideas...
23:37:29  <planetmaker> I have the idea to sleep now ;-) But I said that already :-P
23:37:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you can take a look later :)
23:38:02  <planetmaker> but some speedup there is overdue. So yes
23:38:08  <planetmaker> eventually I will
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23:51:58  <frosch123> night
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