Log for #openttd on 26th January 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
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00:02:48  <Belugas> [16:54] <Eddi|zuHause> "ten minutes before work ends"?  <-- sadly, no...  still "here"
00:03:08  <Belugas> i think i'll go home...  to tired to think
00:03:11  <Belugas> night all
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00:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so...
00:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> python -m cProfile -s time ../nml/nmlc -o cets.nfo cets.nml > profile2.txt
00:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> says that it spends 45 seconds in
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00:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause> probably "-s cumulative" is more interesting
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00:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause>
00:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause>
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02:25:12  <Asteconn> Dia doaibh a chairde!
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02:35:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: patch is coming along.  Not 100% happy with my approach though.
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08:02:22  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-beta3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
08:02:32  <planetmaker> moin
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12:11:35  <andythenorth> morning
12:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> good err... night
12:34:11  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
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13:13:15  <andythenorth> I need some advice wrt correct thing to do with FIRS
13:13:44  <andythenorth> (1) hand over the project to a new maintainer (2) abandon it (3) fork the project from 0.6.4 (4) something else
13:22:26  <Ammler> 4
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13:27:34  <andythenorth> Ammler: any ideas?
13:27:36  <andythenorth> I'm stuck
13:28:52  <Ammler> andythenorth: I miss context :-) you do not want to use nml?
13:29:55  <andythenorth> nml is fine
13:30:16  <dihedral> why not do 3 AND 4?
13:30:22  <Ammler> what else is different in 0.6 then?
13:30:31  <dihedral> fork the project for another maintainer and continue your own path in your own time
13:30:57  <dihedral> or - grab another maintainer to continue where you are stuck, with 2 minds instead of one
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13:32:06  <andythenorth> but I figured out I can't maintain the project
13:32:06  <andythenorth> I don't understand the code base
13:32:06  <andythenorth> I'm dependent on other people to fix bugs, also same for writing new code
13:32:06  <andythenorth> I can't even get graphics into industries
13:32:06  <andythenorth> the responsible thing to do would be to hand over the project
13:32:15  <Ammler> aren't you right now basically the only dev for FIRS, so how can you get in trouble with someone else?
13:33:11  <andythenorth> Ammler: 0.6.4 is the last nfo release
13:33:19  <andythenorth> so I'd branch from there and continue with nfo
13:33:47  <Ammler> so nml isn't fine :'-(
13:35:00  <andythenorth> nfo / nml both fine
13:35:09  <andythenorth> it's more that I wrote the codebase for the nfo version
13:35:16  <andythenorth> and it's mostly commented etc
13:35:40  <andythenorth> I'm no good at working with other people's code it seems :(
13:36:32  <andythenorth> although I didn't write the code for CHIPS, and that's fine
13:37:56  <Ammler> well, if you continue on the nfo code, you basically trash the nml converting
13:38:05  <Ammler> as nobody else will continue there
13:39:37  <planetmaker> wow
13:40:05  <planetmaker> I won't argue. So tired
13:42:13  * andythenorth doesn't want to argue.  I just want to do the correct thing
13:42:14  <planetmaker> but I guess I just stop to care
13:42:25  <andythenorth> usually I just do what I want then say sorry later
13:42:46  <andythenorth> but that can be bad :(
13:43:15  <Ammler> continue on the nfo code while others made the nml convering is stupid, sorry
13:43:28  <planetmaker> I still think very much you didn't even try to code a single industry without any templating
13:43:45  <planetmaker> which is the first step. But you want to skip steps 1 to 6 in learning NML and start with step 7
13:44:34  <planetmaker> I coded the whole of swedish rails without templates
13:44:44  <Ammler> I guess, you basically need to forget about nfo, which you invested much time in learning it, which is understandable
13:44:47  <planetmaker> later I introduced a few small ones.
13:45:49  <planetmaker> for what it's worth, but I'll need to be honest: I surely would be offended, if you continued FIRS in nfo. Even if I don't want to be
13:46:04  <andythenorth> yeah, I don't want to do that
13:46:24  <andythenorth> I wonder if I should try and find a new maintainer
13:46:32  <andythenorth> seems the most honest thing to do
13:46:35  <Ammler> it's not about the maintainer
13:46:49  <Ammler> it's you, who is needed
13:47:20  <planetmaker> if you come to the conclusion you don't want nml. Then doing it nfo is the right way
13:48:21  <planetmaker> While I like FIRS to the degree I like contributing code (after all I spend weeks of coding on it already), I don't feel like I want to be the maintainer
13:48:43  <planetmaker> my current time budget simply doesn't allow that. Esp. given my other projects
13:49:07  <Ammler> how would another maintainer solve the issue?
13:49:41  <Ammler> I guess, what you want is another coder :-)
13:53:27  <planetmaker> andythenorth: did you try so far to make a single industry? No templates? Just pure NML in one file?
13:53:49  <planetmaker> I think only when that is mastered, and that's not really that difficult, then you should judge
13:54:19  <planetmaker> But really, learn it stepwise. You didn't become an nfo templating master by trying to write the firs 0.6.4 code from the start
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15:12:16  <Belugas> hello
15:16:33  <andythenorth> o/ Belugas
15:18:38  <Belugas> sir andythenorth :)
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17:02:58  <LordAro> afternoons
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17:41:43  <spongie> Hi guys! I always have at least one train at the station loading up, yet I don't get above 80%, how come?
17:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> look at the "game mechanics" page on the wiki
17:42:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it explains how station rating works
17:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause> basically: "always a train waiting" gives you ca. 67%. the rest must be obtained by other means
17:44:22  <spongie> oh what other means hehe?
17:44:25  <spongie> bribes?
17:45:27  <spongie> argh, that table is too much to handle
17:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle speed, statue, advertising, ...
17:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: any idea why a patch like this would put the makefile in an infinite loop, running the generate script over and over again?
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17:58:14  <Mazur> First comments, sugestions, helpful tips invited on this Work In Progress:
17:58:36  <SpComb> not enough cowbell
18:01:18  <Mazur> Oh, everybidy's at dinner.
18:01:36  <Mazur> Ooer, a typo!
18:01:52  <Mazur> That should have been: everybiddy, of course.
18:03:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I looped the makefile the other day, can't remember how though :o
18:04:04  <andythenorth> it was editing the same type of code as your paste though
18:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: a little more structure would be nice
18:06:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I went back over my terminal history for clues but didn't find anything, sorry :(
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18:10:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: iirc it was a simple typo when I looped the makefile
18:10:30  <andythenorth> but my memory ain't great ;)
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18:11:15  <andythenorth> bbl
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18:14:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23854 /trunk/src/ (core/random_func.cpp core/random_func.hpp debug.cpp debug.h): -Codechange: make it easier to put random debug stuff into the random log
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18:31:45  <spongie> it says the n% transported is < 100% even though I have a train waiting. "n% transported" is the station rating? im pretty sure I can transport anything that is produced or transferred.
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18:37:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23855 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5007]: out of bounds read for slowdown parameter caused desync when railtype >= 4, vehicles were fast, and the original acceleration model was used
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18:41:02  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Did you try delcaring "generate" as .PHONY? Still shouldn't produce an infinite loop I guess.
18:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: never heard of that
18:41:38  <michi_cc>
18:42:18  <michi_cc> Maybe "A phony target should not be a prerequisite of a real target file; if it is, its recipe will be run every time make goes to update that file." is relevant here.
18:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like the opposite of what i want
18:46:59  <michi_cc> Maybe let "src/engines.gnml" be the rule that does the work and give it as a prerequsite to the other two targets.
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18:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> devzone weirdness: why didn't it throw the r555 error on push?
18:50:00  <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, how do you mean that, "more structure"?  More separated?  More with similar industries near eachother?  DIfferent colours so it's clearer?
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18:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: yes.
18:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: i thought of grouping it in circles and sectors
18:50:50  <Eddi|zuHause> circles: inner: town, middle: secondary, outer:primary
18:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> sectors: agriculture, construction, manufacturing, chemical/energy
18:51:13  <Mazur> You're leaving out tertiary and quartery.
18:51:26  <andythenorth> it's a hard problem
18:51:26  <andythenorth>
18:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no such thing as quartery
18:51:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and tertiary == town
18:51:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't really stack up for FIRS
18:51:50  <Mazur> Indeed.
18:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> where "town" includes the shop, hotel, etc.
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18:52:31  <andythenorth> my understanding of tertiary is the layer of second-secondaries
18:52:37  <andythenorth> this varies from wikipedia's understanding :P
18:52:52  * Mazur agrees.
18:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have several secondary industries in a chain
18:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean with "secondary" is "industries that both produce and accept cargo [other than supplies]"
18:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: and i'd leave out the passengers
18:53:56  * andythenorth has been too grouchy recently and is going away for a bit
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18:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: devzone doesn't have grfcodec?
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19:01:59  <Terkhen> hello
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19:03:12  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you want distro package, release or nightly?
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19:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i need grfcodec in CETS build
19:03:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: CETS r556 fails with "command not found"
19:04:04  <Ammler> in your case, it might be easiest to add a requires file
19:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: how do i do that?
19:04:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and i have a feeling "build on push" is ignored lately
19:06:17  <Ammler> echo -e "nml\ngrfcodec" > .devzone/build/requires
19:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: last "build on push" is from almost 3 days ago
19:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there were several pushes inbetween
19:15:09  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, the last build was stock, I retriggered
19:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what happened there, that always worked before
19:17:55  * Belugas is happy. he does not have to process US taxes anymore!
19:18:35  <Belugas> Those guys are pure genious when it comes to bring in the most devilish tax policy yu can imagine!
19:18:59  <Belugas> so now, we're call ing a service that does it all for us, one shot kiss goodbye :)
19:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood US taxes
19:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in europe, all retail prices must be given including tax
19:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and on the final summary it must be written which part is taxes
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19:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i have a feeling by adding the "requires" file it ignores all previous requirements (coming from the "type" file, i presume)
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19:27:25  <Belugas> they have a5 levels of "possible" tax authorities, with tresholds, variable rates (some chages are even possible within same city different zip codes)
19:27:29  <Belugas> TOTAL ANARCHY!
19:28:05  <chester> where
19:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany they have two levels of taxes, one for food and one for other stuff... and this is constant over whole of germany
19:29:38  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, basically
19:29:41  <xiong> An Advanced Setting allows sending money to other companies. I have it ON. How do I actually send money now?
19:29:48  <ccfreak2k> there's federal taxes, and state taxes, and county taxes.
19:29:59  <ccfreak2k> Going between cities could yield different totals.
19:31:19  <Belugas> yup
19:31:30  <Rubidium> you're talking about VAT, right?
19:31:38  <Belugas> yup
19:31:41  <chester> usa has no vat
19:31:42  <Belugas> or rather... VATs
19:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: since Belugas is in the cash register business, i thought that was implied
19:32:17  <Belugas> Value Added Tax, which means: tax added at the tilt
19:32:28  <Rubidium> then we got three (0%, 6% and 19%)
19:32:30  <xiong> US cities, counties and states impose sales tax; not quite the same thing but similar.
19:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause> what has 0% VAT?
19:33:09  <Belugas> some of those taxes are added on top of others
19:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the levels are 7% (food) and 19% (luxury) in germany
19:33:40  <Belugas> exemptions are sometimes encoded as 0%, which is a nice hack
19:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> where not all food is actually in the food category
19:33:50  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: buying prescribed medicin, some banking stuff
19:33:52  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: International airplane tickets for example.
19:34:34  <Rubidium> yeah, rabbit feed is 6%, guinea pig feed is 19% ;)
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23856 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt german.txt latvian.txt slovak.txt welsh.txt):
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 21 changes by OliTTD
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovak - 19 changes by dafree
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
19:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> to make things worse, there's also some non-food in the food category
19:35:31  <Belugas> yeah to the craziness!
19:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like, staying at a hotel (wtf?!?)
19:36:23  <chester> i heard of a man who eat planes
19:36:41  <Eddi|zuHause> eating at the hotel restaurant, however, is non-food
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19:38:22  <xiong> No search reveals any explanation of sending money. Wiki, forum, SE, all come up dry.
19:38:28  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: "nml\ngrfcodec" <-- I didn't forget nml ;-)
19:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: can send money from the client list
19:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes. but since when do i follow advise? :)
19:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it seemed illogical to have to give nml twice
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19:40:34  <supermop> hello!
19:40:43  <supermop> i have an obnoxious idea!
19:41:15  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: there are other ways but this seems easiest in your case
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19:41:23  <supermop> has refitting locomotives been properly sorted out yet?
19:41:27  <supermop> or do they still need a cargo?
19:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: they still need a cargo, but you can set capacity to 0
19:42:04  <supermop> ok thats not ideal but would work
19:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't need a special cargo, just can pick an existing one
19:42:33  <supermop> can different refits have different running costs?
19:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:42:49  <supermop> ok great
19:42:59  <supermop> and different introduction dates?
19:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:43:23  <supermop> nice!
19:43:30  <supermop> and the big if:
19:43:53  <supermop> can a locomotive influence the decay rate of it's carriages?
19:44:16  <frosch123> what decay rate?
19:44:20  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the VAT seems to be different in BÃŒsingen and Helgoland though ;)
19:44:21  <supermop> cargo
19:44:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be the other way round: the carriages check the locomotive
19:44:52  <supermop> i cant think of any other way to model desirability than decay rate
19:45:03  <frosch123> ah, you can if you define the wagons yourself. i.e. the locomotive cannot change the wagons, but the wagons can change their rating depending on the locomotive
19:45:37  <supermop> but lets say a streamlined locomotive is prettier than the same engine stripped of its exterior
19:46:04  <frosch123> you don't see the engine when sitting inside the train :p
19:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the easiest way i can imagine is to use the user-bitmask for that
19:46:05  <supermop> there is no way yet for 'prettiness' not increase station rating or cargo payments
19:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: and reading that in cb36 for the decay rate of the wagon
19:46:20  <supermop> but you could abuse passenger decay rate
19:46:31  <frosch123> but you can increase the running cost without streamlined stuff
19:46:48  <supermop> to simulate the public liking the shiny new train
19:46:57  <supermop> well i was think that but
19:47:23  <supermop> streamlining increases fuel efficiency, so reduces running costs,
19:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have a low-speed running cost and a high-speed running cost
19:47:52  <supermop> but it makes maintenance more difficult, so it should also increase running cost
19:48:25  <supermop> i figured it would be more simple to fake a 'desirability' of the train
19:49:17  <supermop> so you could have generic steam train, introduced 1920 running cost x, decay rate y
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19:49:36  <supermop> 5 years later, streamlined refit becomes available
19:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: anyway, how can a build be "stuck" for 3 days? shouldn't you have like a timeout?
19:50:16  <supermop> running cost more or less equal to x, or a bit higher, decay rate 0.8y
19:50:34  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, we "should" :-P
19:51:02  <frosch123> supermop: mind that you cannot autoreplace between refits
19:51:18  <frosch123> so, upgrades are no easy business for the player
19:51:27  <supermop> then austerity refit say 15 -20 years later (avoid wartime naming), with running cost 0.7x, decay rate 1.5y
19:51:27  <frosch123> if they are done via refitting
19:52:03  <supermop> well the player decides whether he wants to overhaul his stock to the fancy new fairings or keep the old ones
19:52:15  <Elukka> if you refit a locoomotive to a cargo with a capacity of 0, will it still break 'full load all' commands?
19:52:24  <Elukka> (ie, the train will wait forever for a cargo that can't be loaded)
19:52:25  <frosch123> supermop: but he would have to replace every single engine manually
19:52:29  <frosch123> no autoreplace
19:53:10  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: also the player won't get informed of the new refit/upgrade options via news message
19:53:18  <supermop> hmm
19:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> which is both something i hellishly hate about av8
19:53:59  <andythenorth> autoreplace / renew and subtype tricks don't play nicely
19:54:20  <supermop> it seems like it would still be better than selling your streamlined trains to buy new trains meant to simulate the old streamlined trains with their fairings stripped off
19:54:45  <andythenorth> supermop: I think you're applying 'logic'
19:54:53  <supermop> anyway i did preface this by saying it was an obnoxious suggestion
19:55:04  <andythenorth> whereas you might be better applying 'we are where we are' :)
19:55:14  <supermop> heh
19:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: in CETS we update the livery based on last service date, but without any gameplay effect
19:55:53  <supermop> but i like to micromanage my fleet, cascading crappy trains down to freight or branch lines
19:56:08  <supermop> so maybe i'm the only audience for this idea
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19:56:47  <supermop> and parking my really old trains in a yard outside a depot
19:56:47  <andythenorth> or you play the wrong game :)
19:56:54  <Eddi|zuHause> "micromanagement" is generally a bad idea. the game needs to provide means for "macromanagement"
19:57:17  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: there's a bit of a flaw with that.. if you don't play with servicing/breakdowns, liveries will never be updated
19:57:25  <Elukka> i dunno if there's a better option though
19:57:39  <supermop> also take those 3 refits i mentioned
19:58:03  <supermop> lets call them ginzu a4 mk i, mk ii, and mk iii
19:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: one idea was that the running cost could be increased if not servicing
19:58:05  <Elukka> i stopped playing with servicing when i realized trains suck at finding paths to depots
19:58:08  <Elukka> that was a while ago though
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19:58:27  <Elukka> it always messed up all my trains when they'd try to find a depot
19:58:51  <supermop> maybe a set has those as three separate locomotives instead
19:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: another idea was to offer a switch to update the livery "immediately"/"on service"/"never"
19:59:15  <Elukka> i think that's the best idea
19:59:19  <supermop> with the hidden option to refit a mk i to mk ii spec
20:00:24  <supermop> that way if you buy a mk i one year before the mkii comes out, it's not immediately obsolete or superceded
20:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> where "never" actually means "depends on build date"
20:00:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (so some later liveries might be unavailable)
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20:08:50  <Wolf01> hello
20:08:50  <__ln__> ciao
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20:28:28  <SmatZ> ... I don't want to live in this world anymore
20:28:36  <SmatZ> also, ACTA signed by EU countries today
20:30:01  <__ln__> great news
20:32:29  <SmatZ> anyone chinese here, who would translate that for me? :)
20:32:34  <SmatZ> xiong ? :-)
20:33:00  <xiong> Sorry, SmatZ; I'm not Chinese.
20:33:42  <SmatZ> no problem xiong, sorry for not knowing what nationality you are
20:33:58  <__ln__> you are not required to be Chinese, it's enough to read Chinese
20:34:16  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: the question is wrong. should be "anyone know chinese"?
20:34:28  <SmatZ> yes, I know the question was wrong
20:34:49  <SmatZ> but anyone who knows chinese could say "I am not chinese, but I can translate it for you"
20:34:58  <SmatZ> but yes, I should have asked better :)
20:35:17  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: do you know chinese, by any chance? :)
20:35:20  <xiong> Sorry, SmatZ; I can't translate Chinese.
20:35:31  <xiong> Yes, I should have replied better.
20:35:50  <SmatZ> thank you xiong; it's not your fault my question was not exact :)
20:36:11  <xiong> Your question was clear. Sorry I can't help.
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20:36:40  <xiong> Does anyone have the least idea how to send money to another company? Or is this one of those purely theoretical features?
20:36:54  <SmatZ> xiong: you can send money to player
20:36:58  <SmatZ> in multiplayer
20:37:09  <SmatZ> (I don't know why it's designed that way)
20:37:18  <xiong> Okay. How?
20:37:18  <SmatZ> just open the Client list (in-game)
20:37:37  <SmatZ> select the client, and choose "send money"
20:38:23  <SmatZ> (press LMB on the client, keep it pressed, and choose "send money")
20:38:29  <SmatZ> or "give money", I think
20:38:55  <xiong> Where might this Client list be?
20:39:30  <__ln__>
20:41:05  <SmatZ> xiong:
20:42:15  <SmatZ> xiong:
20:43:30  <xiong> I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse. I don't know what you're doing to open the Client list in the first place.
20:44:20  <SmatZ> xiong: I open the Client list by pressing LMB on the "face" icon in the main toolbar (as seen in )
20:44:46  <xiong> Ah. The face icon. Thank you. And only in multiplayer.
20:45:42  <xiong> So I've backed myself into a corner by starting in single player.
20:46:06  <frosch123> in single player you have to go via cheats
20:46:20  <frosch123> add 10M to the other, subtract 10M from you
20:46:31  <xiong> I don't understand why there's a distinction between the two modes. What's the difference between playing single and running a multiplayer game without anybody else invited?
20:47:33  <xiong> BTW, I feel I have to say, No, I'm not purely antisocial. My schedule is just irregular and offbeat. I've tried online games and either it messes up my sleep and work... or I mess up the game.
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20:51:09  <frosch123> some things are technically not possible to do in multiplayer. so, to make it fair we forbid some stuff in singleplayer, too :p
20:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i never understood the "feature" that makes you give money to clients, not companies
20:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it always sounds like a hack has gone horribly wrong
20:54:20  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: patches to change that are welcome
20:55:11  <SmatZ> and yes, moving the "give money" button to the Company Information screen has been discussed a few times ;)
20:55:20  <SmatZ> but nobody has ever implemented it
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20:55:29  <frosch123> i always thought it is because you know the players you chat with, but you do not know the random company names of them
20:55:56  <frosch123> and judging company colour from nick names can be hard for some colours
20:56:16  <SmatZ> the player can tell you the company name
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20:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe, but still you can't give money to "yourself" in a "one-player" multiplayer game
20:57:57  <SmatZ> I would welcome the ability to give money to AIs
20:58:02  <SmatZ> or AIs give money to me
20:58:04  <SmatZ> :)
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20:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it should be totally reworked, so you can transfer money by buying shares
21:00:34  <SmatZ> I think OpenTTD is about building & transport, it's not an economy simulator
21:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but we have a share system, and it's pretty useless. also we have a give money system that is pretty useless. by combining the two, it may become something useful
21:03:55  <Eddi|zuHause> also by tieing it to shares, you can impose limits
21:03:58  <SmatZ> or something even more useless :)
21:04:16  * SmatZ is thinking
21:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> like you can't buy more than 49% shares
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21:05:09  <SmatZ> I am not sure that is really needed
21:06:19  <SmatZ> eg. a system of "I will borrow 1M from you in the exchange of 10% of my income in the next 10 years" doesn't seem to fit into openttd
21:06:28  <SmatZ> but maybe it would e fine...
21:06:29  <SmatZ> I don't know
21:06:40  <SmatZ> in #openttdcoop, there are never problems with money
21:07:08  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: it would also be a possibility to replace the money-borrowing mechanism with selling shares
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21:07:43  <Rhamphoryncus> There already is a system for borrowing money.  It's a loan.  From the bank.
21:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so "max loan" would be equivalent to "49% shareholder value"
21:08:18  <SmatZ> :)
21:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> which means it will properly scale throughout the game
21:08:59  <SmatZ> it could scale even over 49%
21:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not "repay loan after 2 years, and then forget about it"
21:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: that has some implications over company control
21:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: not sure if that should be modelled
21:10:02  <SmatZ> and when more than 50% of shares is sold, players for that company could control the other company, but not vice versa
21:10:04  <xiong> Anybody who thinks it's too easy to earn money; try chillpack with 7 AIs. After 18 years, yes, I'm way ahead and money isn't a problem. But the first decade is a bit tougher.
21:10:08  <SmatZ> it wouldn't be hard code-wise
21:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> selling >50% shares may mean "i want to sell my company"
21:10:32  <SmatZ> (well, swapping the company you are playing at would need a GUI)
21:10:50  <SmatZ> still...
21:11:18  <xiong> Isn't shuffling money between multiple zerg companies specifically frowned upon on most servers?
21:12:06  <SmatZ> xiong: you can't give someone money you have borrowed from the bank
21:12:26  <SmatZ> so it's not like "start a new company, give all money to company X, let that company bankrupt"
21:12:42  <xiong> I hope you mean, you can't send money when you're in debt.
21:12:49  <SmatZ> yes
21:13:25  <SmatZ> when your bank ballance is 1.2M, and you have 1M borrowed from the bank, you can give someone at most 0.2M
21:14:16  <xiong> But you might roll up a nice wad using underhanded tactics and skim off the profit to another company before you get busted out by server admin.
21:15:00  <Wolf01> 'night
21:15:05  <SmatZ> nn Wolf01
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21:15:47  <SmatZ> xiong: the admin might kick/ban the IP you are connected from
21:16:02  <SmatZ> so you are kicked from the server from both companies
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21:16:23  <xiong> Yes. That's why hardworking zergers switch IPs.
21:16:52  <xiong> OT: We had considerable issues with that sort of cheat when playing Diplomacy.
21:17:01  <SmatZ> would anyone do that just to cheat in openttd?
21:17:12  <xiong> Dunno. Good question.
21:17:45  <xiong> I gather most of the OTTD multiplay is cooperative so cheating really makes no sense.
21:18:17  <frosch123> i am not so sure about that
21:18:46  <frosch123> those goal servers do not look so cooperative, but rather cheat as much as allowed
21:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> my (limited) experience with multiplayer is that it's mostly "stay out of each others way", with the occasional "flatten the whole map" sprinkled in
21:22:19  <frosch123> players do the latter also in single player
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21:26:39  <supermop> hello
21:29:16  <__ln__> hallo
21:29:23  <SmatZ> holla
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21:32:54  <supermop> can one code stations in nml yet?
21:37:39  <Terkhen> to my knowledge, no
21:38:20  <supermop> ok
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21:49:10  <supermop_> nice we got a little 4g hotspot to take on site visits
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22:09:25  <andythenorth> Yexo: does $ have any significance in nml currently?
22:11:00  <supermop> maybe you should pay yexo some $ to get the features you want in nml?
22:11:24  <V453000> :D
22:11:42  <Rubidium> I guess you're better off offering €
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22:16:44  <supermop> i'd say yen would be a bit more desirable at the moment
22:17:28  <Rubidium> why? That's been weak for decades
22:18:13  <supermop> its very strong at the moment
22:19:03  <supermop> a dollar buys 77 yen today versus 120 in 2005
22:19:30  <andythenorth> hmm
22:19:38  * andythenorth has just invented python templating
22:19:45  <andythenorth> only it already exists
22:19:48  <__ln__> but does that tell more about the yen or the dollar?
22:20:07  <andythenorth> this is fortunate, because my implementation might suck
22:20:33  <supermop> yen actually, everyone spent 2011 using it as their safe bet due to worries over the euro
22:20:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: fancy trying to see if python templating can replace more cpp?
22:20:41  <andythenorth>
22:21:17  <andythenorth> not sure I understand how to use it yet
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22:29:54  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: wait, how many languages is openttd using now?
22:30:48  <andythenorth> hmm
22:30:55  <andythenorth> this could work - for simple nml cases at least
22:31:57  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: around 70
22:32:10  <Rhamphoryncus> .... *programming* languages :P
22:32:16  <andythenorth> variadic cpp macros work, but they stink
22:32:40  <andythenorth> they look nothing like the string replacement / templating sane people use
22:33:25  <andythenorth> ${something}_better
22:33:49  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: [18:04:00] planetmaker: any idea why a patch like this would put the makefile in an infinite loop, running the generate script over and over again? <-- you have a circular dep. Where you touch the files with the gen script which depends on the files
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22:34:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Gimme another 20 years and I may have a better language for you ;)
22:34:26  <Rubidium> then ~10
22:34:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: oi
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22:36:21  <planetmaker> 22:37 Eddi|zuHause: [19:09:19] planetmaker: devzone doesn't have grfcodec? <-- it does. But by default it knows NML and NFO projects. Thus it uses one or the other template. You can use a custom requirement thing so it has also grfcodec
22:36:38  <Rubidium> C, C++, Objective-C, sed, awk, bash, vbs, squirrel, sh, Makefile
22:36:45  <Rubidium> oh, nfo
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22:37:22  <frosch123> also strgen and settingsgen :p
22:37:33  <frosch123> and projectfilegen?
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22:38:43  <Rhamphoryncus> x_x
22:39:18  <Rubidium> those aren't that general purpose
22:39:44  <Rubidium> in the first ten you could probably write a Turing machine, the latter four probably not
22:39:47  <Rhamphoryncus> most of those I expected.  objective-c and vbs?
22:40:05  <Rubidium> objective-c = osx
22:40:21  <Rubidium> vbs = version determination / project file regeneration on Windows
22:40:29  * Rhamphoryncus nods
22:40:40  <Steve^> Is there a changelog for releases?
22:40:49  <Rhamphoryncus> All reasonable and justified.  Still makes quite the list.
22:41:09  <frosch123> Steve^: there is a changelog next to every download
22:41:24  <Rubidium> Steve^: from which download is the changelog missing?
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22:41:40  <frosch123> there is of course also a summary on the wiki
22:41:44  <Steve^> Ah yes, I see it
22:41:50  <Steve^> frosch123: that sounds more like what I want
22:42:03  <Steve^> I basically want to know what's been going on since I last played
22:42:09  <frosch123> search for "release history" or so
22:42:27  <frosch123> it lists major new features and links to the manual in most cases
22:42:35  <Steve^> perfect, thanks
22:43:04  <andythenorth> this has no context without the input file...but it works:
22:43:37  <andythenorth> this is the input file, which still contains a lot of cpp, but also some ${} templating
22:43:58  <andythenorth> 'python pre-processor' :)
22:43:59  <andythenorth> ppp
22:44:02  <andythenorth> p^3
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22:45:35  <andythenorth> hmm
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22:45:48  * andythenorth wonders if cpp defines are still relevant
22:45:51  <andythenorth> I kind of like them
22:45:52  <andythenorth> a lot
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22:48:31  <andythenorth> hmm
22:49:36  <andythenorth> which is more readable?
22:49:38  <andythenorth> ${truck_id}_switch_cargo_subtype
22:49:39  <andythenorth> or
22:49:44  <andythenorth> ${truck_id_switch_cargo_subtype}
22:50:08  <andythenorth> the second example would require a concatenation elsewhere
22:50:39  <andythenorth> and couples the template and all the calls to the template more horribly
22:50:57  <andythenorth> the first example is clunkier, but better decoupled
22:59:39  <andythenorth> hmm
22:59:50  <andythenorth> cpp #if is still useful
22:59:59  <andythenorth> although I dislike it
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23:09:36  * andythenorth wonders if cpp evaluates #if 1 == 2 as false
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23:21:25  <andythenorth> hmm
23:21:31  <andythenorth> string replacement is fine
23:21:37  <andythenorth> but it's limited without macros or includes
23:21:41  * andythenorth -> bed
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23:28:05  <Terkhen> good night
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23:28:33  <andythenorth> python templates can be chained, but it's clunk and requires a function definition afaict
23:28:41  <andythenorth> clunk / clunky /s
23:29:18  <andythenorth> maybe not
23:31:33  <andythenorth> meh
23:31:41  <andythenorth> too easy to accidentally write a generator
23:31:44  <andythenorth> generators are evil
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23:34:25  <SpComb> generators are the awesomeest
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