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00:01:58 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:16 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 00:38:51 *** Steve^ [~steve@host-78-149-164-39.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:48 <Mazur> I think it is done, the first version of the FIRS chart: http://5ed04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl/pics/FIRS.png 00:45:46 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-169-1-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:46:51 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 00:50:03 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-28-200-120.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:50:49 *** chester [~chester@128-68-25-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:53:00 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-28-200-120.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 00:53:17 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-49.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:59:17 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0e27b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 01:00:13 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:01:24 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-28-200-120.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:01:34 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-13-59.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:04:20 <Rhamphoryncus> tropic refurbishment set.. has a train that can do 300 km/h.. but no cars that'll do that x_x 01:08:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Heh. Long vehicles has a semi. Should be nice.. but they're not articulated and they're still treated as tiny so they overlap 01:28:04 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-26-219-57.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 01:31:04 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:33:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Hah, generated a subtropic map with a 110 tile sea gap down the middle. There is a spot with an island where you could do a 45 and 70 tile bridge though 01:37:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A664.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:15 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-073-155.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 02:11:03 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 02:11:05 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd 02:15:43 *** lollercaust [~paper@40.Red-88-19-215.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:20 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has joined #openttd 02:35:29 *** Xrufuian [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 02:37:29 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:42:21 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:42:45 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has joined #openttd 02:47:28 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 02:52:58 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-26-219-57.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:34:18 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has joined #openttd 03:35:22 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 483 seconds] 03:43:41 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 03:48:26 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:36 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 03:48:36 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-26-219-57.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 04:28:00 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:35:32 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:42:27 *** cornjuliox [cornjuliox@202.128.63.177] has joined #openttd 04:53:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has joined #openttd 04:57:09 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:17 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:58:59 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:05:48 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.214.193] has joined #openttd 05:12:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.14.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:21:20 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.214.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:29:08 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3dd2:2602:fd64:a0eb] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:34:45 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 05:41:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Turns out water is worth a lot more if you deliver it to a water tower rather than a factory outside of town x_x 05:59:13 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-10-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 05:59:16 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 06:01:22 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-17-196.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:02:07 *** SirWaddles [~SirWaddle@203-129-26-124.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #openttd 06:02:37 <SirWaddles> Hi 06:10:13 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-203-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 06:10:57 *** Netsplit resistance.oftc.net <-> synthon.oftc.net quits: tparker, Hawson, @Belugas, @orudge, glevans2, mikegrb, Maarten, Vadtec, @Rubidium, Born_Acorn, (+9 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 06:11:19 *** Netsplit over, joins: Maarten, @orudge, @Belugas, Born_Acorn, kkb110, Rhamphoryncus, theholyduck, Aygar, xiong, glevans2 (+9 more) 06:12:08 *** mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ 06:12:08 *** mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ 06:12:08 *** mode/#openttd [+v Yexo] by ChanServ 06:12:11 *** mode/#openttd [+v SmatZ] by ChanServ 06:12:23 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.223] has joined #openttd 06:12:52 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 06:14:02 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 06:15:54 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-10-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:19:08 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:20:10 *** SirWaddles [~SirWaddle@203-129-26-124.cust.aussiebb.net] has quit [] 06:45:26 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73EBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 06:45:42 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B741A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:45:42 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.214.193] has joined #openttd 06:45:53 <Asteconn> Dia daoibh a chairde! 06:47:42 <Asteconn> I have a gameplay question 06:47:58 <Asteconn> What's the best method to maximise returns on train passenger transport? 06:48:33 <Asteconn> I mean, I can almost always run a profit, if sometimes that profit is only just above breaking even 06:48:48 <Asteconn> But I'd like to maximise my returns and such 06:53:48 * Asteconn nudges the channel 07:05:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Go fast 07:06:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Mostly I find passengers dissatisfying. I usually only provide service to pacify the town, not to get a profit 07:08:14 <Rhamphoryncus> Although atm I'm using aviator set with 1/1 speed and turning a decent profit. Unless I broke it by not setting it to 1/1 until after I started (it has a warning about really wanting 1/1 speed) 07:09:30 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:13 <Asteconn> 1/1 speed? 07:13:27 <Asteconn> I do enjoy providing passenger train transport actually 07:14:10 <Asteconn> Sometimes I get §100000+ yearly (no inflation) profits for some trains, but I have no idea how I accomplish this. 07:14:19 <Asteconn> Aside from, as you suggest, going quickly. 07:15:06 <Asteconn> But then again, I get some trains running at 100mph returning 60k+ profits sometimes, and others running at 165mph with profits of only a couple of thousand. 07:15:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:15:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Are they full both ways? 07:16:13 <Asteconn> Sometimes 07:16:13 <Rhamphoryncus> There's actually an optimal distance for a given speed 07:16:19 <Asteconn> Oh? 07:16:34 <Asteconn> Well - that doesn't surprise me too much, but please, do tell :D 07:17:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Not sure if it's covered here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics 07:17:32 <Rhamphoryncus> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Delivery_payment_rates 07:18:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, an optimal *time* in transit. From that you want the furthest distance possible 07:19:23 <Asteconn> Yeah 07:19:57 <Asteconn> A friend of mine I play online with often, he builds airports and sends concordes from one end of the map to the other, makes a fortune doing so xD 07:20:22 <Rhamphoryncus> I love doing that :) 07:21:28 <Asteconn> xD 07:24:59 <Asteconn> I play for the trains though. I have a feeling that I'm a closet gricer or something xD 07:26:47 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.240] has joined #openttd 07:34:23 <Asteconn> Another pertinent question then - how best to fill my trains up, but still keeping a decent service frequency? 07:35:41 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure your next train arrives around the time the first one gets full 07:37:15 <Rhamphoryncus> If you look earlier in that page you'll see a list of factors for station rating. The ones you can have consistently are high vehicle speed, low days since last pickup (sitting on full load works), amount of cargo waiting, and having a statue 07:38:07 <andythenorth> mako or chameleon? 07:38:15 <andythenorth> place your vote 07:38:36 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: chameleons are for training... 07:39:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Asteconn: So if your train does 321 km/h, has less than 7.5 days between pickups, leaves less than 100 in the station at any time, and there's a statue, in theory you should get 100% 07:40:08 <Asteconn> Indeed 07:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there's a maximum for the speed, beyond that it's ignored 07:40:30 <Asteconn> Does a train waiting at a station as a result of timetabling count? 07:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 07:42:02 <Asteconn> Recently I've started to set all of my passenger trains to wait at the station for a bit 07:42:07 <Asteconn> usually 250 ticks 07:42:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is all CETS templating cpp? 07:42:23 <andythenorth> do you use any python templating 07:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the properties are in python 07:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the graphics are ... complex 07:43:11 <andythenorth> can you name a file with examples? 07:43:26 <andythenorth> I want to check I'm not re-solving something you solved already 07:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the properties are handled in write.py 07:43:34 <andythenorth> ta 07:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics are handled in tree.py 07:44:13 <andythenorth> you're using % mostly? 07:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 07:45:05 <andythenorth> I've tried the $ templating 07:45:06 <andythenorth> I like it 07:45:24 <andythenorth> but including one template into another is clunky 07:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you mean 07:46:00 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:46:15 <andythenorth> this doesn't build anything real but: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/976/ 07:46:30 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/977/ 07:46:56 <andythenorth> currently it's a horrible mix of cpp and $ templates. I'm replacing the cpp 07:47:37 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 07:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> aha, never seen that 07:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it'd make sense to get rid of the CPP then 07:48:19 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.214.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> besides #include, i use very little CPP 07:49:07 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 07:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> for the vehicle-identifiers and for "named constants" (which nml unfortunately doesn't support) 07:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and some magic for the vehicle slicing 07:50:24 <andythenorth> I'm going to test chameleon http://chameleon.repoze.org/docs/latest/ 07:50:50 <andythenorth> ignore the html/xml note - it's fine to work with plain text, not nodes 07:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "for truck_id in trucks: truck = trucks[truck_id]" <- i'd use "for idtruck_, truck in trucks.iiteritems()" 07:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh 07:51:53 <andythenorth> yes that would be better indeed 07:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> truck_id 07:52:07 <andythenorth> my for loops are unsophisticated 07:52:14 <andythenorth> I only recently discovered enumerate 07:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yup, handy tool :) 07:52:57 <andythenorth> there are n+1 templating modules for python 07:53:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Huh. While passengers are best at 70 days, for mail it's best at 90 07:53:12 <andythenorth> python templating just smells write for nml - to me at least 07:53:24 <andythenorth> I'm going to rewrite BANDIT without any cpp 07:53:38 <andythenorth> I'm also surprised how fast python is locally 07:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: 70 days, or 70*2.5 days? 07:54:04 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 07:54:13 <Rhamphoryncus> 70. What's the 2.5 for? 07:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo is "aged" every 185 ticks, which equals 2.5 days 07:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so when the code says "cargo_age == 70", then it's 70*2.5 days 07:55:09 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 07:55:36 <Rhamphoryncus> The wiki page talks about days. 0.4%/day probably means the code is actually 1%/2.5 days 07:56:17 <Eddi|zuHause> possible, but the wiki may be inconsistent 07:57:10 <andythenorth> Templating should be dumb http://pydanny.blogspot.com/2010/12/stupid-template-languages.html 07:58:50 * Rhamphoryncus switches gnuplot to histogram with a 2.5 step size 08:00:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. Technically that's still not right. It should be a saw pattern, going up smoothly, then dropping down every 2.5 days 08:00:01 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:04:57 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:07:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Looks to be a variance of about... 0.2% :) 08:09:49 <Rhamphoryncus> And the peak for passengers seems to be 37.7439. Sorry, that's a factor, not a percent 08:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> note that newgrfs may nowadays adjust the aging speed, so some newgrfs may provide "long distance" coaches, which screw up your careful calculations 08:14:09 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:14:15 <SpComb> andythenorth: or nml could include its own variable expansion, include mechanisms, ... :) 08:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the most important thing missing is constants and include 08:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the second biggest is local identifier scope 08:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. extending "templates" to more than just realsprites 08:18:24 <SpComb> but on the other hand those things are hard to get right 08:18:43 <SpComb> I've been playing with puppet's DSL a lot now, and the language is sometimes fairly silly 08:19:18 <SpComb> in that, you end up doing stupid stuff like inline_template("... <%= .. %> ...") to implement your "business logic" at times 08:20:07 <SpComb> because the DSL itself doesn't have anything like looping constructs for processing arrays, whereas the templates can use arbitrary ruby code 08:20:12 <andythenorth> SpComb: right now, I like that nml doesn't enforce a templating language :) 08:20:32 <andythenorth> it would be useful for new authors if it provided one, but lack of opinion about which suits me right now 08:20:48 <SpComb> andythenorth: so everybody using nml uses a different templating language, making it harder to share code across projects? 08:20:58 <andythenorth> code sharing is over-rated anyway 08:21:01 <SpComb> yarly 08:21:33 <andythenorth> if nml does provide templating, we'd have to decide which ;) 08:21:38 <andythenorth> so might as well try some first 08:21:49 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 08:21:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it was the local scope that started me thinking about $ 08:22:10 <SpComb> or stop thinking of it as "templating" and more like "structured language" 08:22:17 <SpComb> "NML modules" 08:22:25 <SpComb> namespaces! 08:22:27 <andythenorth> FIRS is full of variadic macros, which if you analyse them are simply defining an identifier which should be local 08:22:34 <andythenorth> THIS_ID(tile) etc 08:22:49 <andythenorth> after you've seen that 50 times in one file, you realise it could just (literally) be written as $ 08:22:55 <andythenorth> it contains zero information 08:23:40 <andythenorth> if you were smart enough you could get rid of it entirely in things like industry layouts, and just use implicit assumption 08:23:49 <SpComb> I've never actually seen any NML code, so I'm just talking :) 08:23:59 <andythenorth> tilelayout tilelayout_fertiliser_plant_3 { 08:23:59 <andythenorth> 0, 1: THIS_ID(tile); 08:23:59 <andythenorth> } 08:24:03 <andythenorth> might as well be written 08:24:16 <andythenorth> tilelayout tilelayout_fertiliser_plant_3 { 08:24:17 <andythenorth> 0, 1; } 08:24:22 <SpComb> but writing python code to generate your NML code doesn't sound right either 08:24:32 <andythenorth> I don't like the generator I've written 08:24:36 <andythenorth> generators are explosive 08:24:46 <andythenorth> dumb templating of code is awesome 08:25:08 <SpComb> "dumb" templating involves some "smart" code to control the templating 08:25:30 <SpComb> at which point half of your set is written as python code and you never see any NML 08:26:16 <andythenorth> nml is 'just' output 08:26:20 <andythenorth> :) 08:26:23 <SpComb> it doesn't have to be 08:27:01 <SpComb> it's already one level of meta (it generates grfcodec input?) - adding another level of meta on top of the meta.. hmm :) 08:27:18 <andythenorth> SpComb: seems fine to me :) 08:27:46 <andythenorth> database -> controller -> template -> xhtml + css -> rendered by browser -> jquery madness -> final result 08:27:54 <andythenorth> is my daily world 08:28:13 <andythenorth> config data -> build set -> nml -> compile seems ok to me 08:28:29 <SpComb> set *code* + data -> nml 08:29:08 <andythenorth> hmm 08:29:12 <SpComb> is where it goes wrong, imo 08:29:49 <andythenorth> I agree, but what to do about it? 08:29:59 <SpComb> dunno, but if you wanted everyone to use NML, it'd be nice to see people... writing NML 08:30:13 <SpComb> -> make NML smarter 08:31:12 <SpComb> but maybe this is the point where I should just keep quiet, because I don't know anything about NML 08:31:55 <andythenorth> :) 08:32:05 <andythenorth> you'll only end up having to write code if you keep talking :) 08:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the point is not to force people writing nml. in the end, it's much easier to just put values into a table 08:34:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:34:37 <andythenorth> SpComb: currently my pipeline for BANDIT (it's amusingly convoluted I know) is: 08:35:35 <andythenorth> vehicle data in object database on the web -> python cms -> python page templates rendering html with <pre> tag -> copy + paste to filesystem -> python generator script -> c pre-processor defines, includes and #if -> nml -> result 08:36:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has google docs -> tsv -> python generator -> c pre-processor defines -> nml -> result 08:36:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you curl the data from google, or manually copy and paste? 08:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the exporting from google is done manually 08:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> file -> save as -> text (tsv) 08:37:22 <andythenorth> didn't want to use the API? 08:37:56 <SpComb> huh, sounds arcane 08:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a) didn't bother, and b) doing that automatically may result in incomplete/temporary stuff bleeding in 08:38:11 <SpComb> why not nml -> tsv -> google docs/whatever? :) 08:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: ??? 08:38:35 <SpComb> or is this a case of "artists must be able to add new vehicles directly via click click"? 08:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: this is a case of "i want to avoid copy-pasting 600 times 08:39:33 <andythenorth> SpComb: in my case I can't be bothered to learn to parse tsv, I know how to get data out of an object database 08:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: this is what the table looks like: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0 08:40:34 <andythenorth> I want to decouple data from how the data is structured 08:40:48 <andythenorth> i.e. not fooling with formatting and crap for data structures 08:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: now imagine i'm adding a new column, like recently the vehicle running cost 08:41:27 <andythenorth> you just add a column and put the figures in 08:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: if it weren't a table, i would have to edit like 600 files 08:41:35 <andythenorth> manually 08:41:39 <SpComb> magic 08:42:34 <SpComb> simple solution: add google docs online import capability directly to openttd, you just add a http:// url instead of a .grf file! 08:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just crazytalk 08:43:05 <andythenorth> I'm halfway there :P 08:52:03 <andythenorth> SpComb: so any ideas how to make nml smarter? :D 08:57:56 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06d2be.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:59:27 <SpComb> nope 08:59:49 *** Asteconn_ [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 09:01:37 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-92-26-219-57.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:01:47 *** Asteconn_ is now known as Asteconn 09:02:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Ouch. It'd only take me around 3-4 years to recoup the cost of scrapping my short-hop train and replacing it with an industrial tram 09:04:41 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:08:22 <andythenorth> hmm 09:08:29 <andythenorth> I should just declare a python class truck 09:08:35 <andythenorth> then extend it 09:08:36 <andythenorth> then render it 09:08:38 <andythenorth> maybe 09:16:40 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:25:48 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.223] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 09:27:24 *** Twofish [~Twofish@box80-64-205-146.static.sdsl.no] has joined #openttd 09:29:30 *** Xrufuian [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Goodnight.] 09:34:29 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:35:19 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.214.193] has joined #openttd 09:35:19 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has left #openttd [] 09:38:58 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:48:40 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 09:55:00 <andythenorth> class truck 09:55:15 <andythenorth> fifth_wheel_truck inherits truck 09:55:18 <andythenorth> class trailer 09:55:20 <andythenorth> etc 10:07:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:14:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:28 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 10:16:31 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:20:00 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 10:30:32 <dihedral> hello 11:01:56 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:07:26 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 11:12:52 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:22:42 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 11:27:25 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: Sla Mutant Co-Op for Renegade - coming back soon] 11:32:02 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-063-068.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:35:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:38:41 *** hbccbh [~hbc@119.133.242.6] has joined #openttd 11:50:29 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:06:35 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 12:06:35 *** George is now known as Guest671 12:06:36 *** George|2 is now known as George 12:18:40 *** appe [appe@noskapin.krot.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:33:01 *** Twofish [~Twofish@box80-64-205-146.static.sdsl.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:26 *** Twofish [~Twofish@box80-64-205-146.static.sdsl.no] has joined #openttd 13:05:55 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:09:22 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 13:16:23 *** Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> oxygen.oftc.net quits: xiong, theholyduck, kkb110_, glevans2, andythenorth, ccfreak2k 13:19:02 *** Netsplit over, joins: kkb110_, andythenorth, theholyduck, xiong, glevans2, ccfreak2k 13:21:28 *** Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> weber.oftc.net quits: Born_Acorn, TinoDidriksen, lugo, tparker, mikegrb, @Belugas, @orudge 13:33:27 *** Netsplit over, joins: @orudge, Born_Acorn, @Belugas, tparker, mikegrb, lugo, TinoDidriksen 13:48:47 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 13:48:47 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:08 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 13:54:16 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f871:483b:c7b:e0c0] has joined #openttd 13:54:19 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 14:08:31 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:08:31 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:30 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 14:30:50 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 14:33:05 *** Stimrol_ [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:42:08 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:49:19 *** saftusx [Robert@cpe-207-86.vktv.no] has joined #openttd 14:49:25 *** saftusx is now known as saftus 15:01:48 <Belugas> hello 15:02:47 * Belugas is going to stay at the door of best Buy tomorrow, waiting of them to open. Transformer Prime should be avaialbe 15:05:50 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 15:09:32 <andythenorth> dedication 15:15:53 <Belugas> no... 15:15:55 <Belugas> obsession 15:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> this is getting creepy 15:19:09 <Belugas> ... 15:19:38 <Belugas> damned you Eddi|zuHause... now, I have to find where is Creeping Death 15:19:55 <Belugas> Metallica that id 15:20:04 <Belugas> -d+s 15:21:34 * andythenorth wants to stop doing current job and start writing python templates for nml 15:21:47 <andythenorth> current job is writing python templates :P 15:23:33 <Belugas> it's the subject that is boring, i'd say :) 15:25:46 <andythenorth> nah it's fun 15:25:52 <andythenorth> we just sold more stuff 15:26:12 <andythenorth> but nml is bugging me :P 15:27:16 <peter1138> herpaderp 15:29:19 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 15:33:57 <Belugas> yuo mean... tempting you? 15:34:09 <Belugas> obsessing you? 15:34:17 <Belugas> calling you? 15:34:23 <andythenorth> dedicating me? 15:34:25 <andythenorth> :P 15:34:35 <Belugas> hem... yes? 15:36:24 *** lollercaust [~paper@40.Red-88-19-215.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 15:36:26 * Hirundo ponders inline python in NML 15:38:22 <andythenorth> Hirundo: +1 15:38:38 <andythenorth> or - have no opinion on a templating engine 15:38:47 <andythenorth> but don't block any 15:39:01 <andythenorth> FWIW I'm going to try rewriting BANDIT (again) with chameleon templating 15:39:12 <andythenorth> because I know it and it's robust and not too clever 15:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weirdness: a gamescript-debug window popped up during game start, and now it's blocked by the main toolbar, i can't close or move it 15:39:52 <andythenorth> Hirundo: I had pretty good results yesterday testing pythons built in Template module $ replacement 15:40:00 <andythenorth> anyway, bbl 15:40:06 * andythenorth has to go brief lawyers 15:40:07 <andythenorth> very dull 15:40:13 <andythenorth> wonder if I'll get biscuits? 15:40:19 <peter1138> BIKKITS 15:40:56 <andythenorth> Hirundo: http://chameleon.repoze.org/docs/latest/ <- ignore the comments about html/xml, it's useful without those 15:41:08 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:41:10 <Hirundo> andythenorth: what about something like .. item template foo(param1, param2) .... item bar extends foo(42, 31) 15:47:53 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:51:04 <planetmaker> Hirundo, templates for items? Sounds.... tasty 15:51:17 <peter1138> ah... the yes album 15:51:18 <planetmaker> and for switches, please ;-) 15:51:58 <planetmaker> probably even more important 15:54:20 <Hirundo> I agree switch blocks blocks can be tiresome to write, but I'm not sure if switch templates are the best solution 15:54:40 <Terkhen> hello :) 15:54:50 <Hirundo> switch in itself is a too nfo-ish construct IMHO 15:55:21 <Hirundo> too limited, requires too many quirks to get things done with 15:57:40 <planetmaker> hm. if's basically a case construct in other languages. Not sure it's nfo-ish 15:58:25 <Hirundo> Imagine writing C++/whatever with nothing but switch-statements to work with 15:58:30 <planetmaker> of course it could be replaced by a real function-like thing ^^ 15:58:50 <Hirundo> Indeed :-) 15:58:52 <planetmaker> like then in the callback block: default: graphics_switch 15:59:55 <planetmaker> and there if (year < 1990) return image1; case (position) { 0: return image2; 1: return image3; return image4; } 16:00:05 <planetmaker> feasible. But... much harder to parse, I guess 16:00:18 <planetmaker> or rather harder to validate 16:01:31 <Hirundo> if graphics_switch is a function that accepts parameters, you have a lot of templating power 16:01:45 <planetmaker> but a template function like function yearswitch(img1,img2, img3) { case (year) { 0 .. 1990: return img1; 1991..2000: return img2; return img3; } } 16:01:47 <planetmaker> would be nice 16:01:54 <Hirundo> exactly 16:02:00 <planetmaker> :-) 16:12:06 *** Xrufuian [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 16:12:29 *** Aygar [~quassel@160.129.129.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:23 *** Aygar [~quassel@160.129.129.92] has joined #openttd 16:22:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:55 *** Twofish [~Twofish@box80-64-205-146.static.sdsl.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> hm.. the ET831/ET87 sparks from the wrong place... 16:30:12 *** TGYoshi_ [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 16:31:40 *** JYHAD [c9594f41@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:32:02 <JYHAD> JYHAD 16:32:48 *** JYHAD [c9594f41@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [] 16:33:57 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:34:32 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Gesundheit. 16:43:33 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06d2be.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:44:09 *** hbccbh [~hbc@119.133.242.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:54 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 17:06:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:07:41 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 17:16:46 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:28:09 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:33:04 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:47:15 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 18:07:00 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 18:11:54 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 18:23:28 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 18:23:32 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-169-1-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 18:26:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:30:22 *** chester [~chester@93-80-152-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 18:33:39 *** PhoenixII [~ralph@f72217.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 18:35:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23857 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4997]: some SDL misbehaviour 18:35:33 <Mazur> Back. 18:36:45 <Rubidium> side 18:37:09 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> # backe, backe Kuchen, der BÀcker hat gerufen 18:43:27 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:45:50 *** Stimrol_ [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 18:46:04 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 18:48:02 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:48:05 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:49:02 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:05 *** hbccbh [~hbc@119.133.242.6] has joined #openttd 19:05:32 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-72-20.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:08:21 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-029-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 19:14:05 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-72-20.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:18:29 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:43 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:18:44 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 19:25:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:29:13 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:42:07 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:46:32 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> crazy feature request: allow vehicles to be length 0 19:54:03 <andythenorth> why? 19:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> fewer headaches when refitting for different amount of wagons 19:54:49 <andythenorth> exactly 19:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the A2/ETA177 has two end parts of length 7, and an optional middle part of length 7 19:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> length 7 vehicles are currently implemented as 2/3/2 19:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so i have an articulated vehicle of 9 parts, 2/3/2+2/3/2+2/3/2 19:56:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D52B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be way easier to code this as 2/3/2+0/0/0+2/3/2 instead of 2/1/1+1/1/1+2/3/2, and reworking the var 61/62 checks 19:57:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.176.186] has joined #openttd 19:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be guards to disallow <1 length for the front vehicle 20:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which might otherwise make the vehicle inaccessible in the depot 20:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there can't possibly be non-spam behind a topic "Research - History - Politics - Licenses - AI - Econimics" 20:04:00 *** Hero_of_Time [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 20:05:21 <Alberth> request a lock of the topic :) 20:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but to report it, i first have to open it 20:06:48 <Alberth> actually it is non-spam, just the usual "I want to expand the game to <topic> areas" 20:07:03 *** lollercaust [~paper@40.Red-88-19-215.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:13 <planetmaker> I think I approved the posting ;-) 20:07:45 <planetmaker> approved as in "allowed it to show in the forums" 20:07:57 <planetmaker> not the contents ;-) 20:08:05 <Alberth> yeah, but it won't go anywhere :) 20:08:26 <planetmaker> it's the suggestions forum after all 20:08:49 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd400.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:08:56 <planetmaker> and obviously he never tried ECS or FIRS. Hasn't heart about bribing. Never heart of goal scripts ;-) 20:09:01 <Alberth> sure, not a problem to post suggestions there, even if they are completely useless :) 20:09:27 <Alberth> or infra-structure costs :p 20:09:34 <planetmaker> yeah :-) 20:09:44 *** Xrufuian [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:09:57 <Alberth> Although I must admit I haven't used them either ;) 20:10:22 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-34-173.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:11:15 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 20:11:24 <planetmaker> oh, and he isn't aware that it's also up to him to make a better train AI ;-) 20:11:54 <planetmaker> Though IMHO the most daring statement is "More micromanaging will make players cherish (...)" 20:12:03 <planetmaker> I'll not subscribe to that ;-) 20:12:04 <Alberth> I pondered to post about that, but in the end could not be bothered to hit 'reply' 20:12:12 <planetmaker> hehe. You neither? 20:12:44 <Alberth> I am sure someone will tell him about AI's :) 20:13:25 <planetmaker> :-) 20:13:33 <Alberth> maybe tomorrow or Sunday, if nobody did, and I am terribly bored :) 20:15:42 *** saftus [Robert@cpe-207-86.vktv.no] has quit [] 20:16:19 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:18:41 <Alberth> I am somewhat pondering about adding warnings for the user about things he might miss 20:18:55 <Alberth> For example, not being able to build anything for X months 20:19:08 <Alberth> Not being able to transport some type of cargo 20:19:33 <planetmaker> how do you mean? 20:19:35 <Alberth> Forgetting to refit, so he attempts to load non-existing cargo at some station 20:19:53 <planetmaker> you mean a kind of mentor which checks the sanitiy of actions? 20:20:08 <Alberth> well, I load FIRS but default vehicles -> I cannot transport EMNS 20:20:18 <planetmaker> ah, newgrf sanity 20:20:20 <planetmaker> yes 20:20:33 <planetmaker> That will need sandbox testing in the newgrf dialogue 20:20:38 <planetmaker> and that makes much sense 20:21:05 <planetmaker> I think frosch123 has some probably more details ideas there... 20:21:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like grf-topia? 20:21:49 <Alberth> at the moment, I am doing these things in-game 20:21:53 <Alberth> andythenorth: it does? 20:21:57 <andythenorth> ¿ quak 20:22:07 <planetmaker> what it needs is: testing each vehicle type (train, road, water, air) whether it can transport all cargos 20:22:08 <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NewGRF_Configuration_in_Utopia <- :p 20:22:12 <planetmaker> maybe air can be skipped 20:22:26 <frosch123> we need to decouple newgrf.cpp from the rest of ottd 20:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "lower-saxony: state attorney says: you may call the president a liar" 20:22:41 <Alberth> I was pondering to do it as part of world generation 20:22:48 <frosch123> so you can process a newgrf configuration without affecting pools or other gamestates :) 20:23:15 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes... though then it's too late 20:23:16 <Alberth> ah, that's how it is grf-utopia :p 20:23:34 <planetmaker> imho the grf config dialogue needs a box like "sanity check" 20:24:13 <planetmaker> but where exactly that check is called is very minor to making it feasible in the first place ;-) 20:24:14 <Alberth> it reports "you are insane" <OK> with me :p 20:24:19 <planetmaker> ^^ :-P 20:24:35 <frosch123> the only step i did for now was restructuring the temporary variables during newgrf load 20:24:40 <frosch123> i.e. the stuff which is now in _cur 20:25:22 <frosch123> another first step would be to display "your newgrf configuration has conflicts" if the number of newgrfs is > 20 20:25:23 <Alberth> I am blissfully unaware of what _cur contains :p 20:25:36 <frosch123> Alberth: it's even commented :p 20:25:52 <frosch123> GrfProcessingState 20:26:16 <Alberth> ok, so it may be penetrable for me too :) 20:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly it should be completely decoupled from global variables 20:26:42 <Alberth> (20:40:48) frosch123: another first step would be to display "your newgrf configuration has conflicts" if the number of newgrfs is > 20 <-- much easier solution, just reduce the limit to 19 :D 20:26:50 <frosch123> basically i want an interface between newgrf.cpp and the outside world :p 20:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so you create like an object NewGRFContext() 20:27:01 <Alberth> sounds like a good step indeed 20:30:12 <Alberth> and a whole lot more complexity :p 20:31:19 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 20:31:52 <frosch123> alternatively we can execute openttd again as childprocess and pass the newgrf config via commandline :p 20:34:13 <Alberth> good, cmdline at windows still limited at 128 characters? :) 20:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't it 256? 20:34:51 <frosch123> well, we can also use stdin and stdout 20:34:59 <Alberth> could be, it has been > 10 years I last used Win* 20:35:02 <frosch123> if we compile win binaries as console applications 20:35:16 <frosch123> 255 would sound like a nice dos number 20:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably >15 years since i tried long command lines the last time 20:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i DID hit the limit in DOS back then 20:37:59 <frosch123> i also hit in on linux 20:38:29 <frosch123> sometimes rm * does not work, if there are too many files in the directiory 20:38:32 <frosch123> e.g. /tmp 20:39:06 <frosch123> bash has a limit of 32k arguments or so 20:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like the DOS limit is 127 20:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> my DOS 5.0 manual says: "Sie können beliebig viele Befehle in eine einzige Zeile eingeben, vorausgesetzt, daà die GesamtzeilenlÀnge 128 nicht ÃŒberschreitet." 20:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, you could separate several commands by pressing ctrl+t 20:50:16 <frosch123> sounds like dos :p 20:50:39 <frosch123> 1) implement a shell that can execute binaries 20:51:20 <frosch123> 2) allow adding arguments to commands using / to separate the command and the arguments (no space) 20:51:40 <frosch123> 3) add directories to your filesystem and use \ because / is already used for command/argument separation 20:52:03 <Alberth> in particular since /was already used for unix :) 20:52:55 <frosch123> it's all the fault of us date format 20:53:13 <Belugas> good for him :) One of the devs in here just gave resignation. He's going for a better job. Happy for him, sad for us. he's been here for 10 years. I've trained him, worked with him and had great time doing so 20:53:30 <frosch123> if they would not use such a silly character like / for date separation, it would be not such a popular key on the us keyboard 20:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you explain the usage of ~ in win95 then? :) 20:54:02 <frosch123> and as such it would not have been used for arguments, or searching in various viewers or crappy - yet popular - editors 20:54:22 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 20:54:59 <Alberth> Belugas: openttd dev resigning? :o 20:55:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: oh, i forgot to mention 20:55:22 <Alberth> usually they just leave :) 20:55:37 <frosch123> dos used a normal character to prefix filenames in the filesystem if the files were deleted 20:55:50 <frosch123> i think it was a "." (cannot remember) 20:56:15 <frosch123> later they wanted to use the character in filenames, so they added another speical symbol to represent the "." (or whatever it was) 20:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, don't remember that 20:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i always believed it was a <0x20 character 20:57:05 <frosch123> it's really impressive how dos is screwed up, though they only copied features from unix and wang, while trying to make it simpler; but still adding the stuff later 20:57:43 <frosch123> dpmi is another great story :p 20:58:15 <Eddi|zuHause> oh dpmi caused great fun 20:58:17 <frosch123> dpmi 0.9 was a pre-release which needed shipping early. it contained several low level functions which should not be accessible for normal applications 20:58:22 <Belugas> naaa work@work resigning, Alberth 20:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> with buggy loaders in commercial games 20:58:43 <frosch123> 1.0 then removed those functions. but since applications were already using them, it was dropped and 0.9 remained active 21:06:24 <frosch123> ok, wiki prooves me wrong. it was not the "." character which marked deleted files 21:06:44 <frosch123> but some >80h character; so it also became important when extending filenames beyond ascii 21:07:11 <frosch123> "0x05 means, the character is actually 0xE5" :p 21:07:22 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 21:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> err, right :p 21:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it was somewhat different in Novell DOS, there you could restore files with the complete name, instead of guessing what the first character was 21:09:07 <frosch123> yeah, novell dos reps. drdos was a lot better 21:09:13 <SmatZ> [21:09:19] <frosch123> 1.0 then removed those functions. but since applications were already using them, it was dropped and 0.9 remained active 21:09:23 <SmatZ> ^^^ interesting knowledge, I was never aware of that 21:09:27 <frosch123> all drivers and such had a lot smaller memory footprint 21:09:35 <SmatZ> I thought it just never reachedthe "stable" state 21:09:56 <frosch123> sad was though that lots of games screwed up when they could not find mscdex 21:10:07 <frosch123> so somewhen i copied nwcdex to mscdex :p 21:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :) 21:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i never properly got my CD drive to work... 21:11:09 <frosch123> SmatZ: the dos release cycles were so long, that is was common that applications worked around bugs, and then relied on the buggy behaviour; so it was not possible to fix the original bug without breaking stuff... which would then be considered a bug :p 21:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> my tower was so screwed up, you had to lay it down because the 5 1/4" slots were vertical 21:11:39 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.223] has joined #openttd 21:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and i already had 2 HDDs, so i would have to disconnect one 21:12:01 <frosch123> well, "release cycle" is maybe the wrong word. i mean you did not update your os regulary, but kept it on the machine when bought 21:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and i never figured out how to use the CD port on the sound card 21:12:54 <frosch123> oh yeah, i think my first sound card had like 3 different connectors for various non-atapi cdroms :p 21:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yup 21:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but none of them worked with the drive 21:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or it needed special drivers which i didn't have 21:14:21 <frosch123> hmm, actually let's see whether the ralph brown intlist is still maintained :) 21:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and there was no internet to get drivers 21:14:54 <michi_cc> I wonder just who came up with the idea to add cdroms to sound cards and not proper storage adapters. 21:15:20 <frosch123> no idea either, i would assume they were only used for audio 21:15:41 <frosch123> in the early days there were such weird things like video or image cds 21:15:55 <frosch123> everyone invented his own format to burn on cds :p 21:15:57 <michi_cc> It's not as if PCs didn't already had one or more of the different floppy and hdd connectors. 21:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a separate audio connector 21:16:50 <michi_cc> Yeah, my first cd drive still had play/stop and skip buttons on the front. 21:17:34 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it had even TRIPLE SPEED! 21:19:37 <frosch123> then you had one before me 21:19:51 <frosch123> i already had quad speed :p 21:26:56 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:27:47 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 21:28:56 *** pjpe [ae5b4d6d@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:30:14 <Alberth> michi_cc: but thsoe floppy/hdd things were parallel, not serial 21:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> MAN ... the edit history of google docs is FUCKING USELESS! 21:42:08 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 21:44:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: google docs is a half-done solution 21:44:50 <andythenorth> or half-assed 21:44:54 <andythenorth> I can't decide yet which 21:45:04 <andythenorth> but excel kicks it's ass in so many respects 21:45:18 <andythenorth> it's / its /s 21:47:17 <planetmaker> on the coast of being bloated ;-) 21:51:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Google docs has the advantage of being online. Mostly easy to share with people. That's all it has though. 21:51:52 <planetmaker> yes. It also has IMHO the better interface than the online version of excel 21:52:17 <Rhamphoryncus> there's.. an online excel? 21:53:00 <planetmaker> IIRC I once saw one... I don't recall the URL 21:55:14 <planetmaker> https://skydrive.live.com <-- Rhamphoryncus 21:55:34 <planetmaker> it needs login and stuff, though 21:55:44 <planetmaker> though one can share links similar like google docs 21:55:47 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 21:55:48 <planetmaker> w/o login 21:56:30 <Wolf01> hello 21:56:50 * Rhamphoryncus nods 21:57:34 *** vodka [~paper@40.Red-88-19-215.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 22:04:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23858 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change [FS#5003]: some updates and improvements of the base font (PaulC) 22:05:24 <andythenorth> ho ho ho 22:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so "skydrive" is a microsoft product... 22:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that explains the extensive "product placement" 22:09:29 <Rhamphoryncus> "it sounds cool and it's kinda.. cloud-ish.." -- Microsoft marketer picking the name 22:10:46 <Eddi|zuHause> do we have roman numerals in the ¹²³ fashion in openttd? 22:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> particularly an I 22:12:00 <Rubidium> not Roman 22:12:06 <Rubidium> except... 22:12:21 <Rubidium> is there an unicode codepoint for it? 22:12:53 <Rubidium> ah... there is 22:13:07 <Rubidium> just not in superscript 22:13:48 <Rubidium> you could (simply) add the glyphs you need in your NewGRF 22:13:49 *** TGYoshi_ [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 22:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> we could offer a {SUPERSCRIPT} tag and write it in small font 22:14:38 <Rhamphoryncus> ahaha, Qalculate has a RNG in it.. and since the calculator is symbol the random number is irrational :D 22:14:40 <Rubidium> or just make the glyphs you provide superscripty ;) 22:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there's only a superscript i 22:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> not a superscript I 22:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> have an example that adds a glyph in a newgrf? 22:17:45 <Rubidium> /trunk/media/extra_grf/chars.nfo 22:19:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: got three options already here: Ꮅ Ꮅ ᶊ 22:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause> where? 22:21:19 <Rubidium> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=unicode+superscript&l=1 22:23:38 <Rubidium> don't forget to scroll down to the "other superscript and subscript characters" section 22:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't find these in kcharselect 22:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but honestly, their search kinda sucks 22:24:49 <andythenorth> ho ho ho 22:27:15 <__ln__> merry christmas, andythenorth 22:30:45 <frosch123> 1D35 seems to be one of those 22:30:51 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so U+1D35 could be the "right one" 22:31:00 <frosch123> :p 22:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and U+2C7D for V 22:45:51 <andythenorth> oh oh oh 22:46:54 <andythenorth> hm hm hm 22:49:58 * andythenorth is sad 22:50:02 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BFFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:24 <andythenorth> anyone got a favourite python templating module that can handle repeats 22:50:28 <andythenorth> but not mako 22:50:29 <andythenorth> ? 22:51:26 <Rubidium> cobra? 22:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> regexp :p 22:52:02 <Rubidium> monty? 22:53:15 * andythenorth suspects mako is the correct solution for nml templating 22:53:18 <andythenorth> but I don't know it 22:53:25 <andythenorth> and it looks dangerously powerful 22:58:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23859 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Inserting conditional orders for ships checked the wrong orders wrt. maximum distance. 22:58:23 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:31 *** chester [~chester@93-80-152-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:29 <andythenorth> nml doesn't care about extra newlines in switch blocks? 23:07:14 <Alberth> it's a context-free parser, so it shouldn't 23:07:17 <andythenorth> can I rely on that persisting? 23:07:31 <andythenorth> it will make butt-ugly code, but it's a limitation of the templater I'm using 23:07:41 <Alberth> ply is not likely to go away anytime soon :) 23:07:49 <andythenorth> I can have extra newlines 23:07:57 <andythenorth> or loc > 80 char long in some cases 23:08:06 <andythenorth> xor 23:08:25 <Alberth> ply doesn't mind either/both 23:08:27 <andythenorth> great 23:08:37 <andythenorth> smells like the wrong templater to me though :P 23:08:49 <andythenorth> although I can't see how others would handle it differently 23:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> CPP inserts plenty of newlines 23:09:11 <andythenorth> if I write newlines in a template, I'd usually need them respected 23:09:19 <andythenorth> just occasionally it would be useful to not 23:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> any #if/#ifdef will result in lots of empty lines if the condition is not met 23:09:58 <Alberth> that's the mess with templates; they tend to use the same newline character both for output and for template formatting :p 23:10:05 <andythenorth> indeed 23:10:23 <andythenorth> and not doing that just litters template with magic characters 23:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> just escape the newlines :) 23:10:42 <Alberth> which lead to ditching all those template stuff at work, for me 23:10:56 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:11:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: yesterday I got some nice results with python's default Template class and $ ${} substiution 23:11:19 <andythenorth> which means no deps 23:11:32 <andythenorth> but today I have been trying chameleon because I know it 23:11:41 <Alberth> unfortunately, I use Java at work :) 23:11:52 <andythenorth> ho 23:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Java, the master of all bloatware, doesn't have a useful template library? 23:12:14 * Rhamphoryncus doesn't see how a trainer mech would help with templating ;) 23:12:56 <frosch123> aren't templates part of jave 6? 23:13:02 <frosch123> *java 23:13:21 <frosch123> (resp. 2.6 if you use the traditional numbering) 23:13:45 <Wolf01> "I used to be a captain like you, but then I took a lifeboat in the knee." 23:13:51 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 23:14:03 <andythenorth> hmm 23:14:09 <andythenorth> chameleon might be overkill 23:14:17 * andythenorth shows restraint, unusually 23:14:37 <andythenorth> but it means can do stuff like ${foo_string.upper()} or whatever 23:15:06 <andythenorth> and also repeat lines trivially 23:15:52 <andythenorth> cookie for first person to tell me result of this: <tal:test repeat="test_repeat (1,2,3)"> ${repeat.test_repeat.number}</tal:test> 23:16:52 <andythenorth> it's a slightly dumb example 23:17:00 <Alberth> frosch123: I don't know, the stuff I tried was supposed to be good for converting models (a collection of objects) to text. However, the manual stated that if you used it for eg Java, you better used the Java formatter afterwards.... which makes you wonder how you'd make such a formatter in Java :p 23:17:30 <Alberth> s/eg/eg generating/ 23:17:34 <andythenorth> less dumb: <tal:test repeat="test_repeat ('cat', 'mouse', 'dog')"> ${test_repeat}</tal:test> 23:19:02 <Alberth> good night all 23:19:37 <andythenorth> bye Alberth 23:20:57 <andythenorth> ho ho ho 23:23:00 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:32 *** Hero_of_Time [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:25:29 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:33:33 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 23:43:44 *** Asteconn [~Asteconn@host-2-98-162-96.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:45:09 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:50:06 <Wolf01> 'night 23:50:10 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:50:17 <frosch123> night 23:50:20 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd400.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:57 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.214.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:54:22 <andythenorth> ho ho ha 23:55:14 * andythenorth adventures in templates 23:56:09 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-72-20.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever wrote an adventure in sed? 23:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen sokoban in sed 23:57:39 <andythenorth> Template("${go}", "north") 23:58:13 * andythenorth wonders if it's total overkill to create each vehicle as a python object 23:58:18 <andythenorth> but it's kind of neat 23:58:43 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]