Log for #openttd on 27th January 2012:
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00:39:48  <Mazur> I think it is done, the first version of the FIRS chart:
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01:04:20  <Rhamphoryncus> tropic refurbishment set.. has a train that can do 300 km/h.. but no cars that'll do that x_x
01:08:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Heh.  Long vehicles has a semi.  Should be nice.. but they're not articulated and they're still treated as tiny so they overlap
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01:33:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Hah, generated a subtropic map with a 110 tile sea gap down the middle.  There is a spot with an island where you could do a 45 and 70 tile bridge though
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05:41:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Turns out water is worth a lot more if you deliver it to a water tower rather than a factory outside of town x_x
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06:02:37  <SirWaddles> Hi
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06:45:53  <Asteconn> Dia daoibh a chairde!
06:47:42  <Asteconn> I have a gameplay question
06:47:58  <Asteconn> What's the best method to maximise returns on train passenger transport?
06:48:33  <Asteconn> I mean, I can almost always run a profit, if sometimes that profit is only just above breaking even
06:48:48  <Asteconn> But I'd like to maximise my returns and such
06:53:48  * Asteconn nudges the channel
07:05:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Go fast
07:06:19  <Rhamphoryncus> Mostly I find passengers dissatisfying.  I usually only provide service to pacify the town, not to get a profit
07:08:14  <Rhamphoryncus> Although atm I'm using aviator set with 1/1 speed and turning a decent profit.  Unless I broke it by not setting it to 1/1 until after I started (it has a warning about really wanting 1/1 speed)
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07:13:13  <Asteconn> 1/1 speed?
07:13:27  <Asteconn> I do enjoy providing passenger train transport actually
07:14:10  <Asteconn> Sometimes I get §100000+ yearly (no inflation) profits for some trains, but I have no idea how I accomplish this.
07:14:19  <Asteconn> Aside from, as you suggest, going quickly.
07:15:06  <Asteconn> But then again, I get some trains running at 100mph returning 60k+ profits sometimes, and others running at 165mph with profits of only a couple of thousand.
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07:15:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Are they full both ways?
07:16:13  <Asteconn> Sometimes
07:16:13  <Rhamphoryncus> There's actually an optimal distance for a given speed
07:16:19  <Asteconn> Oh?
07:16:34  <Asteconn> Well - that doesn't surprise me too much, but please, do tell :D
07:17:12  <Rhamphoryncus> Not sure if it's covered here:
07:17:32  <Rhamphoryncus>
07:18:44  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, an optimal *time* in transit.  From that you want the furthest distance possible
07:19:23  <Asteconn> Yeah
07:19:57  <Asteconn> A friend of mine I play online with often, he builds airports and sends concordes from one end of the map to the other, makes a fortune doing so xD
07:20:22  <Rhamphoryncus> I love doing that :)
07:21:28  <Asteconn> xD
07:24:59  <Asteconn> I play for the trains though. I have a feeling that I'm a closet gricer or something xD
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07:34:23  <Asteconn> Another pertinent question then - how best to fill my trains up, but still keeping a decent service frequency?
07:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure your next train arrives around the time the first one gets full
07:37:15  <Rhamphoryncus> If you look earlier in that page you'll see a list of factors for station rating.  The ones you can have consistently are high vehicle speed, low days since last pickup (sitting on full load works), amount of cargo waiting, and having a statue
07:38:07  <andythenorth> mako or chameleon?
07:38:15  <andythenorth> place your vote
07:38:36  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: chameleons are for training...
07:39:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Asteconn: So if your train does 321 km/h, has less than 7.5 days between pickups, leaves less than 100 in the station at any time, and there's a statue, in theory you should get 100%
07:40:08  <Asteconn> Indeed
07:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i think there's a maximum for the speed, beyond that it's ignored
07:40:30  <Asteconn> Does a train waiting at a station as a result of timetabling count?
07:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
07:42:02  <Asteconn> Recently I've started to set all of my passenger trains to wait at the station for a bit
07:42:07  <Asteconn> usually 250 ticks
07:42:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is all CETS templating cpp?
07:42:23  <andythenorth> do you use any python templating
07:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the properties are in python
07:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the graphics are ... complex
07:43:11  <andythenorth> can you name a file with examples?
07:43:26  <andythenorth> I want to check I'm not re-solving something you solved already
07:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the properties are handled in
07:43:34  <andythenorth> ta
07:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics are handled in
07:44:13  <andythenorth> you're using % mostly?
07:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
07:45:05  <andythenorth> I've tried the $ templating
07:45:06  <andythenorth> I like it
07:45:24  <andythenorth> but including one template into another is clunky
07:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you mean
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07:46:15  <andythenorth> this doesn't build anything real but:
07:46:30  <andythenorth>
07:46:56  <andythenorth> currently it's a horrible mix of cpp and $ templates.  I'm replacing the cpp
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07:47:39  <Eddi|zuHause> aha, never seen that
07:48:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it'd make sense to get rid of the CPP then
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07:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause> besides #include, i use very little CPP
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07:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> for the vehicle-identifiers and for "named constants" (which nml unfortunately doesn't support)
07:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and some magic for the vehicle slicing
07:50:24  <andythenorth> I'm going to test chameleon
07:50:50  <andythenorth> ignore the html/xml note - it's fine to work with plain text, not nodes
07:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "for truck_id in trucks:  truck = trucks[truck_id]" <- i'd use "for idtruck_, truck in trucks.iiteritems()"
07:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh
07:51:53  <andythenorth> yes that would be better indeed
07:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> truck_id
07:52:07  <andythenorth> my for loops are unsophisticated
07:52:14  <andythenorth> I only recently discovered enumerate
07:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yup, handy tool :)
07:52:57  <andythenorth> there are n+1 templating modules for python
07:53:11  <Rhamphoryncus> Huh.  While passengers are best at 70 days, for mail it's best at 90
07:53:12  <andythenorth> python templating just smells write for nml - to me at least
07:53:24  <andythenorth> I'm going to rewrite BANDIT without any cpp
07:53:38  <andythenorth> I'm also surprised how fast python is locally
07:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: 70 days, or 70*2.5 days?
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07:54:13  <Rhamphoryncus> 70.  What's the 2.5 for?
07:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo is "aged" every 185 ticks, which equals 2.5 days
07:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so when the code says "cargo_age == 70", then it's 70*2.5 days
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07:55:36  <Rhamphoryncus> The wiki page talks about days.  0.4%/day probably means the code is actually 1%/2.5 days
07:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> possible, but the wiki may be inconsistent
07:57:10  <andythenorth> Templating should be dumb
07:58:50  * Rhamphoryncus switches gnuplot to histogram with a 2.5 step size
08:00:00  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  Technically that's still not right.  It should be a saw pattern, going up smoothly, then dropping down every 2.5 days
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08:07:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Looks to be a variance of about... 0.2% :)
08:09:49  <Rhamphoryncus> And the peak for passengers seems to be 37.7439.  Sorry, that's a factor, not a percent
08:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> note that newgrfs may nowadays adjust the aging speed, so some newgrfs may provide "long distance" coaches, which screw up your careful calculations
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08:14:15  <SpComb> andythenorth: or nml could include its own variable expansion, include mechanisms, ... :)
08:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the most important thing missing is constants and include
08:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the second biggest is local identifier scope
08:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. extending "templates" to more than just realsprites
08:18:24  <SpComb> but on the other hand those things are hard to get right
08:18:43  <SpComb> I've been playing with puppet's DSL a lot now, and the language is sometimes fairly silly
08:19:18  <SpComb> in that, you end up doing stupid stuff like inline_template("... <%= .. %> ...") to implement your "business logic" at times
08:20:07  <SpComb> because the DSL itself doesn't have anything like looping constructs for processing arrays, whereas the templates can use arbitrary ruby code
08:20:12  <andythenorth> SpComb: right now, I like that nml doesn't enforce a templating language :)
08:20:32  <andythenorth> it would be useful for new authors if it provided one, but lack of opinion about which suits me right now
08:20:48  <SpComb> andythenorth: so everybody using nml uses a different templating language, making it harder to share code across projects?
08:20:58  <andythenorth> code sharing is over-rated anyway
08:21:01  <SpComb> yarly
08:21:33  <andythenorth> if nml does provide templating, we'd have to decide which ;)
08:21:38  <andythenorth> so might as well try some first
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08:21:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it was the local scope that started me thinking about $
08:22:10  <SpComb> or stop thinking of it as "templating" and more like "structured language"
08:22:17  <SpComb> "NML modules"
08:22:25  <SpComb> namespaces!
08:22:27  <andythenorth> FIRS is full of variadic macros, which if you analyse them are simply defining an identifier which should be local
08:22:34  <andythenorth> THIS_ID(tile) etc
08:22:49  <andythenorth> after you've seen that 50 times in one file, you realise it could just (literally) be written as $
08:22:55  <andythenorth> it contains zero information
08:23:40  <andythenorth> if you were smart enough you could get rid of it entirely in things like industry layouts, and just use implicit assumption
08:23:49  <SpComb> I've never actually seen any NML code, so I'm just talking :)
08:23:59  <andythenorth> tilelayout tilelayout_fertiliser_plant_3 {
08:23:59  <andythenorth> 	0, 1: THIS_ID(tile);
08:23:59  <andythenorth> }
08:24:03  <andythenorth> might as well be written
08:24:16  <andythenorth> tilelayout tilelayout_fertiliser_plant_3 {
08:24:17  <andythenorth> 	0, 1; }
08:24:22  <SpComb> but writing python code to generate your NML code doesn't sound right either
08:24:32  <andythenorth> I don't like the generator I've written
08:24:36  <andythenorth> generators are explosive
08:24:46  <andythenorth> dumb templating of code is awesome
08:25:08  <SpComb> "dumb" templating involves some "smart" code to control the templating
08:25:30  <SpComb> at which point half of your set is written as python code and you never see any NML
08:26:16  <andythenorth> nml is 'just' output
08:26:20  <andythenorth> :)
08:26:23  <SpComb> it doesn't have to be
08:27:01  <SpComb> it's already one level of meta (it generates grfcodec input?) - adding another level of meta on top of the meta.. hmm :)
08:27:18  <andythenorth> SpComb: seems fine to me :)
08:27:46  <andythenorth> database -> controller -> template -> xhtml + css -> rendered by browser -> jquery madness -> final result
08:27:54  <andythenorth> is my daily world
08:28:13  <andythenorth> config data -> build set -> nml -> compile seems ok to me
08:28:29  <SpComb> set *code* + data -> nml
08:29:08  <andythenorth> hmm
08:29:12  <SpComb> is where it goes wrong, imo
08:29:49  <andythenorth> I agree, but what to do about it?
08:29:59  <SpComb> dunno, but if you wanted everyone to use NML, it'd be nice to see people... writing NML
08:30:13  <SpComb> -> make NML smarter
08:31:12  <SpComb> but maybe this is the point where I should just keep quiet, because I don't know anything about NML
08:31:55  <andythenorth> :)
08:32:05  <andythenorth> you'll only end up having to write code if you keep talking :)
08:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the point is not to force people writing nml. in the end, it's much easier to just put values into a table
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08:34:37  <andythenorth> SpComb: currently my pipeline for BANDIT (it's amusingly convoluted I know) is:
08:35:35  <andythenorth> vehicle data in object database on the web -> python cms -> python page templates rendering html with <pre> tag -> copy + paste to filesystem -> python generator script -> c pre-processor defines, includes and #if -> nml -> result
08:36:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has google docs -> tsv -> python generator -> c pre-processor defines -> nml -> result
08:36:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you curl the data from google, or manually copy and paste?
08:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the exporting from google is done manually
08:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> file -> save as -> text (tsv)
08:37:22  <andythenorth> didn't want to use the API?
08:37:56  <SpComb> huh, sounds arcane
08:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a) didn't bother, and b) doing that automatically may result in incomplete/temporary stuff bleeding in
08:38:11  <SpComb> why not nml -> tsv -> google docs/whatever? :)
08:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: ???
08:38:35  <SpComb> or is this a case of "artists must be able to add new vehicles directly via click click"?
08:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: this is a case of "i want to avoid copy-pasting 600 times
08:39:33  <andythenorth> SpComb: in my case I can't be bothered to learn to parse tsv, I know how to get data out of an object database
08:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: this is what the table looks like:
08:40:34  <andythenorth> I want to decouple data from how the data is structured
08:40:48  <andythenorth> i.e. not fooling with formatting and crap for data structures
08:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: now imagine i'm adding a new column, like recently the vehicle running cost
08:41:27  <andythenorth> you just add a column and put the figures in
08:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: if it weren't a table, i would have to edit like 600 files
08:41:35  <andythenorth> manually
08:41:39  <SpComb> magic
08:42:34  <SpComb> simple solution: add google docs online import capability directly to openttd, you just add a http:// url instead of a .grf file!
08:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's just crazytalk
08:43:05  <andythenorth> I'm halfway there :P
08:52:03  <andythenorth> SpComb: so any ideas how to make nml smarter? :D
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08:59:27  <SpComb> nope
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09:02:52  <Rhamphoryncus> Ouch.  It'd only take me around 3-4 years to recoup the cost of scrapping my short-hop train and replacing it with an industrial tram
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09:08:22  <andythenorth> hmm
09:08:29  <andythenorth> I should just declare a python class truck
09:08:35  <andythenorth> then extend it
09:08:36  <andythenorth> then render it
09:08:38  <andythenorth> maybe
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09:55:00  <andythenorth> class truck
09:55:15  <andythenorth> fifth_wheel_truck inherits truck
09:55:18  <andythenorth> class trailer
09:55:20  <andythenorth> etc
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10:30:32  <dihedral> hello
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15:01:48  <Belugas> hello
15:02:47  * Belugas is going to stay at the door of best Buy tomorrow, waiting of them to open. Transformer Prime should be avaialbe
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15:09:32  <andythenorth> dedication
15:15:53  <Belugas> no...
15:15:55  <Belugas> obsession
15:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> this is getting creepy
15:19:09  <Belugas> ...
15:19:38  <Belugas> damned you Eddi|zuHause... now, I have to find where is Creeping Death
15:19:55  <Belugas> Metallica that id
15:20:04  <Belugas> -d+s
15:21:34  * andythenorth wants to stop doing current job and start writing python templates for nml
15:21:47  <andythenorth> current job is writing python templates :P
15:23:33  <Belugas> it's the subject that is boring, i'd say :)
15:25:46  <andythenorth> nah it's fun
15:25:52  <andythenorth> we just sold more stuff
15:26:12  <andythenorth> but nml is bugging me :P
15:27:16  <peter1138> herpaderp
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15:33:57  <Belugas> yuo mean... tempting you?
15:34:09  <Belugas> obsessing you?
15:34:17  <Belugas> calling you?
15:34:23  <andythenorth> dedicating me?
15:34:25  <andythenorth> :P
15:34:35  <Belugas> hem... yes?
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15:36:26  * Hirundo ponders inline python in NML
15:38:22  <andythenorth> Hirundo: +1
15:38:38  <andythenorth> or - have no opinion on a templating engine
15:38:47  <andythenorth> but don't block any
15:39:01  <andythenorth> FWIW I'm going to try rewriting BANDIT (again) with chameleon templating
15:39:12  <andythenorth> because I know it and it's robust and not too clever
15:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weirdness: a gamescript-debug window popped up during game start, and now it's blocked by the main toolbar, i can't close or move it
15:39:52  <andythenorth> Hirundo: I had pretty good results yesterday testing pythons built in Template module $ replacement
15:40:00  <andythenorth> anyway, bbl
15:40:06  * andythenorth has to go brief lawyers
15:40:07  <andythenorth> very dull
15:40:13  <andythenorth> wonder if I'll get biscuits?
15:40:19  <peter1138> BIKKITS
15:40:56  <andythenorth> Hirundo:  <- ignore the comments about html/xml, it's useful without those
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15:41:10  <Hirundo> andythenorth: what about something like .. item template foo(param1, param2) .... item bar extends foo(42, 31)
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15:51:04  <planetmaker> Hirundo, templates for items? Sounds.... tasty
15:51:17  <peter1138> ah... the yes album
15:51:18  <planetmaker> and for switches, please ;-)
15:51:58  <planetmaker> probably even more important
15:54:20  <Hirundo> I agree switch blocks blocks can be tiresome to write, but I'm not sure if switch templates are the best solution
15:54:40  <Terkhen> hello :)
15:54:50  <Hirundo> switch in itself is a too nfo-ish construct IMHO
15:55:21  <Hirundo> too limited, requires too many quirks to get things done with
15:57:40  <planetmaker> hm. if's basically a case construct in other languages. Not sure it's nfo-ish
15:58:25  <Hirundo> Imagine writing C++/whatever with nothing but switch-statements to work with
15:58:30  <planetmaker> of course it could be replaced by a real function-like thing ^^
15:58:50  <Hirundo> Indeed :-)
15:58:52  <planetmaker> like then in the callback block: default: graphics_switch
15:59:55  <planetmaker> and there if (year < 1990) return image1; case (position) { 0: return image2; 1: return image3; return image4; }
16:00:05  <planetmaker> feasible. But... much harder to parse, I guess
16:00:18  <planetmaker> or rather harder to validate
16:01:31  <Hirundo> if graphics_switch is a function that accepts parameters, you have a lot of templating power
16:01:45  <planetmaker> but a template function like function yearswitch(img1,img2, img3) { case (year) { 0 .. 1990: return img1; 1991..2000: return img2; return img3; } }
16:01:47  <planetmaker> would be nice
16:01:54  <Hirundo> exactly
16:02:00  <planetmaker> :-)
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16:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hm.. the ET831/ET87 sparks from the wrong place...
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16:32:02  <JYHAD> JYHAD
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16:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Gesundheit.
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18:35:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23857 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4997]: some SDL misbehaviour
18:35:33  <Mazur> Back.
18:36:45  <Rubidium> side
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18:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> # backe, backe Kuchen, der BÀcker hat gerufen
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19:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> crazy feature request: allow vehicles to be length 0
19:54:03  <andythenorth> why?
19:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> fewer headaches when refitting for different amount of wagons
19:54:49  <andythenorth> exactly
19:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the A2/ETA177 has two end parts of length 7, and an optional middle part of length 7
19:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> length 7 vehicles are currently implemented as 2/3/2
19:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so i have an articulated vehicle of 9 parts, 2/3/2+2/3/2+2/3/2
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19:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be way easier to code this as 2/3/2+0/0/0+2/3/2 instead of 2/1/1+1/1/1+2/3/2, and reworking the var 61/62 checks
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19:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there might be guards to disallow <1 length for the front vehicle
20:00:46  <Eddi|zuHause> which might otherwise make the vehicle inaccessible in the depot
20:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there can't possibly be non-spam behind a topic "Research - History - Politics - Licenses - AI - Econimics"
20:04:00  *** Hero_of_Time [] has joined #openttd
20:05:21  <Alberth> request a lock of the topic :)
20:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but to report it, i first have to open it
20:06:48  <Alberth> actually it is non-spam, just the usual "I want to expand the game to <topic> areas"
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20:07:13  <planetmaker> I think I approved the posting ;-)
20:07:45  <planetmaker> approved as in "allowed it to show in the forums"
20:07:57  <planetmaker> not the contents ;-)
20:08:05  <Alberth> yeah, but it won't go anywhere :)
20:08:26  <planetmaker> it's the suggestions forum after all
20:08:49  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
20:08:56  <planetmaker> and obviously he never tried ECS or FIRS. Hasn't heart about bribing. Never heart of goal scripts ;-)
20:09:01  <Alberth> sure, not a problem to post suggestions there, even if they are completely useless :)
20:09:27  <Alberth> or infra-structure costs :p
20:09:34  <planetmaker> yeah :-)
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20:09:57  <Alberth> Although I must admit I haven't used them either ;)
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20:11:24  <planetmaker> oh, and he isn't aware that it's also up to him to make a better train AI ;-)
20:11:54  <planetmaker> Though IMHO the most daring statement is "More micromanaging will make players cherish (...)"
20:12:03  <planetmaker> I'll not subscribe to that ;-)
20:12:04  <Alberth> I pondered to post about that, but in the end could not be bothered to hit 'reply'
20:12:12  <planetmaker> hehe. You neither?
20:12:44  <Alberth> I am sure someone will tell him about AI's  :)
20:13:25  <planetmaker> :-)
20:13:33  <Alberth> maybe tomorrow or Sunday, if nobody did, and I am terribly bored :)
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20:18:41  <Alberth> I am somewhat pondering about adding warnings for the user about things he might miss
20:18:55  <Alberth> For example, not being able to build anything for X months
20:19:08  <Alberth> Not being able to transport some type of cargo
20:19:33  <planetmaker> how do you mean?
20:19:35  <Alberth> Forgetting to refit, so he attempts to load non-existing cargo at some station
20:19:53  <planetmaker> you mean a kind of mentor which checks the sanitiy of actions?
20:20:08  <Alberth> well, I load FIRS but default vehicles -> I cannot transport EMNS
20:20:18  <planetmaker> ah, newgrf sanity
20:20:20  <planetmaker> yes
20:20:33  <planetmaker> That will need sandbox testing in the newgrf dialogue
20:20:38  <planetmaker> and that makes much sense
20:21:05  <planetmaker> I think frosch123 has some probably more details ideas there...
20:21:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like grf-topia?
20:21:49  <Alberth> at the moment, I am doing these things in-game
20:21:53  <Alberth> andythenorth: it does?
20:21:57  <andythenorth> ¿ quak
20:22:07  <planetmaker> what it needs is: testing each vehicle type (train, road, water, air) whether it can transport all cargos
20:22:08  <frosch123> <- :p
20:22:12  <planetmaker> maybe air can be skipped
20:22:26  <frosch123> we need to decouple newgrf.cpp from the rest of ottd
20:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "lower-saxony: state attorney says: you may call the president a liar"
20:22:41  <Alberth> I was pondering to do it as part of world generation
20:22:48  <frosch123> so you can process a newgrf configuration without affecting pools or other gamestates :)
20:23:15  <planetmaker> Alberth, yes... though then it's too late
20:23:16  <Alberth> ah, that's how it is grf-utopia :p
20:23:34  <planetmaker> imho the grf config dialogue needs a box like "sanity check"
20:24:13  <planetmaker> but where exactly that check is called is very minor to making it feasible in the first place ;-)
20:24:14  <Alberth> it reports "you are insane" <OK>       with me :p
20:24:19  <planetmaker> ^^ :-P
20:24:35  <frosch123> the only step i did for now was restructuring the temporary variables during newgrf load
20:24:40  <frosch123> i.e. the stuff which is now in _cur
20:25:22  <frosch123> another first step would be to display "your newgrf configuration has conflicts" if the number of newgrfs is > 20
20:25:23  <Alberth> I am blissfully unaware of what _cur contains :p
20:25:36  <frosch123> Alberth: it's even commented :p
20:25:52  <frosch123> GrfProcessingState
20:26:16  <Alberth> ok, so it may be penetrable for me too :)
20:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly it should be completely decoupled from global variables
20:26:42  <Alberth> (20:40:48) frosch123: another first step would be to display "your newgrf configuration has conflicts" if the number of newgrfs is > 20  <-- much easier solution, just reduce the limit to 19 :D
20:26:50  <frosch123> basically i want an interface between newgrf.cpp and the outside world :p
20:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so you create like an object NewGRFContext()
20:27:01  <Alberth> sounds like a good step indeed
20:30:12  <Alberth> and a whole lot more complexity :p
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20:31:52  <frosch123> alternatively we can execute openttd again as childprocess and pass the newgrf config via commandline :p
20:34:13  <Alberth> good, cmdline at windows still limited at 128 characters? :)
20:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't it 256?
20:34:51  <frosch123> well, we can also use stdin and stdout
20:34:59  <Alberth> could be, it has been > 10 years I last used Win*
20:35:02  <frosch123> if we compile win binaries as console applications
20:35:16  <frosch123> 255 would sound like a nice dos number
20:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably >15 years since i tried long command lines the last time
20:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i DID hit the limit in DOS back then
20:37:59  <frosch123> i also hit in on linux
20:38:29  <frosch123> sometimes rm * does not work, if there are too many files in the directiory
20:38:32  <frosch123> e.g. /tmp
20:39:06  <frosch123> bash has a limit of 32k arguments or so
20:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like the DOS limit is 127
20:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> my DOS 5.0 manual says: "Sie können beliebig viele Befehle in eine einzige Zeile eingeben, vorausgesetzt, daß die GesamtzeilenlÀnge 128 nicht ÃŒberschreitet."
20:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, you could separate several commands by pressing ctrl+t
20:50:16  <frosch123> sounds like dos :p
20:50:39  <frosch123> 1) implement a shell that can execute binaries
20:51:20  <frosch123> 2) allow adding arguments to commands using / to separate the command and the arguments (no space)
20:51:40  <frosch123> 3) add directories to your filesystem and use \ because / is already used for command/argument separation
20:52:03  <Alberth> in particular since /was already used for unix :)
20:52:55  <frosch123> it's all the fault of us date format
20:53:13  <Belugas> good for him :)  One of the devs in here just gave resignation.  He's going for a better job.  Happy for him, sad for us.  he's been here for 10 years.  I've trained him, worked with him and had great time doing so
20:53:30  <frosch123> if they would not use such a silly character like / for date separation, it would be not such a popular key on the us keyboard
20:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you explain the usage of ~ in win95 then? :)
20:54:02  <frosch123> and as such it would not have been used for arguments, or searching in various viewers or crappy - yet popular - editors
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20:54:59  <Alberth> Belugas: openttd dev resigning? :o
20:55:01  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: oh, i forgot to mention
20:55:22  <Alberth> usually they just leave :)
20:55:37  <frosch123> dos used a normal character to prefix filenames in the filesystem if the files were deleted
20:55:50  <frosch123> i think it was a "." (cannot remember)
20:56:15  <frosch123> later they wanted to use the character in filenames, so they added another speical symbol to represent the "." (or whatever it was)
20:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, don't remember that
20:56:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i always believed it was a <0x20 character
20:57:05  <frosch123> it's really impressive how dos is screwed up, though they only copied features from unix and wang, while trying to make it simpler; but still adding the stuff later
20:57:43  <frosch123> dpmi is another great story :p
20:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> oh dpmi caused great fun
20:58:17  <frosch123> dpmi 0.9 was a pre-release which needed shipping early. it contained several low level functions which should not be accessible for normal applications
20:58:22  <Belugas> naaa work@work resigning, Alberth
20:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause> with buggy loaders in commercial games
20:58:43  <frosch123> 1.0 then removed those functions. but since applications were already using them, it was dropped and 0.9 remained active
21:06:24  <frosch123> ok, wiki prooves me wrong. it was not the "." character which marked deleted files
21:06:44  <frosch123> but some >80h character; so it also became important when extending filenames beyond ascii
21:07:11  <frosch123> "0x05 means, the character is actually 0xE5" :p
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21:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> err, right :p
21:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it was somewhat different in Novell DOS, there you could restore files with the complete name, instead of guessing what the first character was
21:09:07  <frosch123> yeah, novell dos reps. drdos was a lot better
21:09:13  <SmatZ> [21:09:19] <frosch123> 1.0 then removed those functions. but since applications were already using them, it was dropped and 0.9 remained active
21:09:23  <SmatZ> ^^^ interesting knowledge, I was never aware of that
21:09:27  <frosch123> all drivers and such had a lot smaller memory footprint
21:09:35  <SmatZ> I thought it just never reachedthe "stable" state
21:09:56  <frosch123> sad was though that lots of games screwed up when they could not find mscdex
21:10:07  <frosch123> so somewhen i copied nwcdex to mscdex :p
21:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
21:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i never properly got my CD drive to work...
21:11:09  <frosch123> SmatZ: the dos release cycles were so long, that is was common that applications worked around bugs, and then relied on the buggy behaviour; so it was not possible to fix the original bug without breaking stuff... which would then be considered a bug :p
21:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> my tower was so screwed up, you had to lay it down because the 5 1/4" slots were vertical
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21:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> and i already had 2 HDDs, so i would have to disconnect one
21:12:01  <frosch123> well, "release cycle" is maybe the wrong word. i mean you did not update your os regulary, but kept it on the machine when bought
21:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and i never figured out how to use the CD port on the sound card
21:12:54  <frosch123> oh yeah, i think my first sound card had like 3 different connectors for various non-atapi cdroms :p
21:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yup
21:14:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but none of them worked with the drive
21:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> or it needed special drivers which i didn't have
21:14:21  <frosch123> hmm, actually let's see whether the ralph brown intlist is still maintained :)
21:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and there was no internet to get drivers
21:14:54  <michi_cc> I wonder just who came up with the idea to add cdroms to sound cards and not proper storage adapters.
21:15:20  <frosch123> no idea either, i would assume they were only used for audio
21:15:41  <frosch123> in the early days there were such weird things like video or image cds
21:15:55  <frosch123> everyone invented his own format to burn on cds :p
21:15:57  <michi_cc> It's not as if PCs didn't already had one or more of the different floppy and hdd connectors.
21:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a separate audio connector
21:16:50  <michi_cc> Yeah, my first cd drive still had play/stop and skip buttons on the front.
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21:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it had even TRIPLE SPEED!
21:19:37  <frosch123> then you had one before me
21:19:51  <frosch123> i already had quad speed :p
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21:30:14  <Alberth> michi_cc: but thsoe floppy/hdd things were parallel, not serial
21:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> MAN ... the edit history of google docs is FUCKING USELESS!
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21:44:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: google docs is a half-done solution
21:44:50  <andythenorth> or half-assed
21:44:54  <andythenorth> I can't decide yet which
21:45:04  <andythenorth> but excel kicks it's ass in so many respects
21:45:18  <andythenorth> it's / its /s
21:47:17  <planetmaker> on the coast of being bloated ;-)
21:51:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Google docs has the advantage of being online.  Mostly easy to share with people.  That's all it has though.
21:51:52  <planetmaker> yes. It also has IMHO the better interface than the online version of excel
21:52:17  <Rhamphoryncus> there's.. an online excel?
21:53:00  <planetmaker> IIRC I once saw one... I don't recall the URL
21:55:14  <planetmaker> <-- Rhamphoryncus
21:55:34  <planetmaker> it needs login and stuff, though
21:55:44  <planetmaker> though one can share links similar like google docs
21:55:47  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
21:55:48  <planetmaker> w/o login
21:56:30  <Wolf01> hello
21:56:50  * Rhamphoryncus nods
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22:04:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23858 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change [FS#5003]: some updates and improvements of the base font (PaulC)
22:05:24  <andythenorth> ho ho ho
22:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so "skydrive" is a microsoft product...
22:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that explains the extensive "product placement"
22:09:29  <Rhamphoryncus> "it sounds cool and it's kinda.. cloud-ish.."  -- Microsoft marketer picking the name
22:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> do we have roman numerals in the ¹²³ fashion in openttd?
22:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> particularly an I
22:12:00  <Rubidium> not Roman
22:12:06  <Rubidium> except...
22:12:21  <Rubidium> is there an unicode codepoint for it?
22:12:53  <Rubidium> ah... there is
22:13:07  <Rubidium> just not in superscript
22:13:48  <Rubidium> you could (simply) add the glyphs you need in your NewGRF
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22:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> we could offer a {SUPERSCRIPT} tag and write it in small font
22:14:38  <Rhamphoryncus> ahaha, Qalculate has a RNG in it.. and since the calculator is symbol the random number is irrational :D
22:14:40  <Rubidium> or just make the glyphs you provide superscripty ;)
22:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there's only a superscript i
22:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not a superscript I
22:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> have an example that adds a glyph in a newgrf?
22:17:45  <Rubidium> /trunk/media/extra_grf/chars.nfo
22:19:15  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: got three options already here: Ꮅ Ꮅ ᶊ
22:19:28  <Eddi|zuHause> where?
22:21:19  <Rubidium>
22:23:38  <Rubidium> don't forget to scroll down to the "other superscript and subscript characters" section
22:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't find these in kcharselect
22:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but honestly, their search kinda sucks
22:24:49  <andythenorth> ho ho ho
22:27:15  <__ln__> merry christmas, andythenorth
22:30:45  <frosch123> 1D35 seems to be one of those
22:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so U+1D35 could be the "right one"
22:31:00  <frosch123> :p
22:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and U+2C7D for V
22:45:51  <andythenorth> oh oh oh
22:46:54  <andythenorth> hm hm hm
22:49:58  * andythenorth is sad
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22:50:24  <andythenorth> anyone got a favourite python templating module that can handle repeats
22:50:28  <andythenorth> but not mako
22:50:29  <andythenorth> ?
22:51:26  <Rubidium> cobra?
22:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> regexp :p
22:52:02  <Rubidium> monty?
22:53:15  * andythenorth suspects mako is the correct solution for nml templating
22:53:18  <andythenorth> but I don't know it
22:53:25  <andythenorth> and it looks dangerously powerful
22:58:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23859 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Inserting conditional orders for ships checked the wrong orders wrt. maximum distance.
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23:06:29  <andythenorth> nml doesn't care about extra newlines in switch blocks?
23:07:14  <Alberth> it's a context-free parser, so it shouldn't
23:07:17  <andythenorth> can I rely on that persisting?
23:07:31  <andythenorth> it will make butt-ugly code, but it's a limitation of the templater I'm using
23:07:41  <Alberth> ply is not likely to go away anytime soon :)
23:07:49  <andythenorth> I can have extra newlines
23:07:57  <andythenorth> or loc > 80 char long in some cases
23:08:06  <andythenorth> xor
23:08:25  <Alberth> ply doesn't mind either/both
23:08:27  <andythenorth> great
23:08:37  <andythenorth> smells like the wrong templater to me though :P
23:08:49  <andythenorth> although I can't see how others would handle it differently
23:09:00  <Eddi|zuHause> CPP inserts plenty of newlines
23:09:11  <andythenorth> if I write newlines in a template, I'd usually need them respected
23:09:19  <andythenorth> just occasionally it would be useful to not
23:09:57  <Eddi|zuHause> any #if/#ifdef will result in lots of empty lines if the condition is not met
23:09:58  <Alberth> that's the mess with templates; they tend to use the same newline character both for output and for template formatting :p
23:10:05  <andythenorth> indeed
23:10:23  <andythenorth> and not doing that just litters  template with magic characters
23:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> just escape the newlines :)
23:10:42  <Alberth> which lead to ditching all those template stuff at work, for me
23:10:56  *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:11:17  <andythenorth> Alberth: yesterday I got some nice results with python's default Template class and $ ${} substiution
23:11:19  <andythenorth> which means no deps
23:11:32  <andythenorth> but today I have been trying chameleon because I know it
23:11:41  <Alberth> unfortunately, I use Java at work :)
23:11:52  <andythenorth> ho
23:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Java, the master of all bloatware, doesn't have a useful template library?
23:12:14  * Rhamphoryncus doesn't see how a trainer mech would help with templating ;)
23:12:56  <frosch123> aren't templates part of jave 6?
23:13:02  <frosch123> *java
23:13:21  <frosch123> (resp. 2.6 if you use the traditional numbering)
23:13:45  <Wolf01> "I used to be a captain like you, but then I took a lifeboat in the knee."
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23:14:03  <andythenorth> hmm
23:14:09  <andythenorth> chameleon might be overkill
23:14:17  * andythenorth shows restraint, unusually
23:14:37  <andythenorth> but it means can do stuff like ${foo_string.upper()} or whatever
23:15:06  <andythenorth> and also repeat lines trivially
23:15:52  <andythenorth> cookie for first person to tell me result of this: <tal:test repeat="test_repeat (1,2,3)"> ${repeat.test_repeat.number}</tal:test>
23:16:52  <andythenorth> it's a slightly dumb example
23:17:00  <Alberth> frosch123: I don't know, the stuff I tried was supposed to be good for converting models (a collection of objects) to text. However, the manual stated that if you used it for eg Java, you better used the Java formatter afterwards.... which makes you wonder how you'd make such a formatter in Java :p
23:17:30  <Alberth> s/eg/eg generating/
23:17:34  <andythenorth> less dumb: <tal:test repeat="test_repeat ('cat', 'mouse', 'dog')"> ${test_repeat}</tal:test>
23:19:02  <Alberth> good night all
23:19:37  <andythenorth> bye Alberth
23:20:57  <andythenorth> ho ho ho
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23:50:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:50:17  <frosch123> night
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23:54:22  <andythenorth> ho ho ha
23:55:14  * andythenorth adventures in templates
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23:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever wrote an adventure in sed?
23:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen sokoban in sed
23:57:39  <andythenorth> Template("${go}", "north")
23:58:13  * andythenorth wonders if it's total overkill to create each vehicle as a python object
23:58:18  <andythenorth> but it's kind of neat
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